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2122M
Posts: 1225
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:11 am

MSPNWA wrote:
2122M wrote:
I'm sorry if you are uncomfortable with the information provided. It's conclusions run counter to your gut feelings, but I'm afraid there is nothing I can do about that, not does that fact invalidate the studies.

And the registry would slow the free flow of weapons around the country and allow gun owners to be held more accountable. Most people would conclude that as a good thing. I know you are probably of the opinion that anything, and I mean anything that adds one extra step between a person and owning a gun is a terrible, no-good violation of your rights. Frankly, I don't care. Most people support measures that uphold the second amendment but add layers of protection (https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx). If you think otherwise, I'm sure I won't change your mind, but again, I really don't care.


I'm beyond comfortable with the information you provided because it actually supports my argument, as I just exposed. Empirical data is a major issue for those that irrationally fear guns and desire to strip away freedoms.

What I find incredibly sad is the "I don't care" attitude. I think you would care if you lost freedoms you enjoy. Or worse, your government gains permanent control over you. This isn't a democracy. This is a Constitutional Republic. Following polls of ignorant people doesn't equate to sound legislation.


Slippery slope, right? Sorry, I don't buy it. I'm not losing my freedom if the government is making sure crazy people don't buy guns and kill people and neither are you (unless you are a crazy person that wants to kill people of course).

Its astonishing to me that people like you are just fine with the way things are. Gun violence in this country is out of control, but any attempt to bring it under control would be the government stripping us of our freedoms? Do you realize how insane that sounds?

So no. If the government launches a federal gun registry to assist in tracking the flow of guns in the county and to allow for private sales background checks and you get upset, I really, really don't care.

If the government finally allows the CDC to study gun violence as a public health crisis and you get your panties in a twist, I couldn't care less.

If the government bans certain types of guns and you feel like we are slipping into some Orwellian nightmare, I really, truly, honestly and proudly don't care. Because at least in those cases we are trying something.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17585
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:07 am

MSPNWA wrote:
2122M wrote:

National gun registry, insurance requirements, universal background checks, allowing the CDC to study gun violence as a public health issue.....

None of the measures prohibit the ownership of firearms by law-abiding citizens, would you give them a shot in a effort to save lives?


Now explain how those measures will conclusively decrease the rate of mass shootings?

Your claim that they will not prohibit law-abiding ownership of firearms is misleading at best. It for certain will inhibit the practice, meaning backdoor prohibition, and it would certainly create the framework to prohibition for law-abiding citizens (like red flag laws do).

2122M wrote:


Not even close to "basic" gun control measures. That was an extreme measure that would be in clear violation of the 2nd Amendment.

2122M wrote:


Your source paints a mixed message on 'basic" measures, far from the conclusive and significant effect necessary for sound legislation.

2122M wrote:

2122M wrote:

See #1

Where is this mountain that "basic" controls work? Is this it?

Here's a fun thing to do--ask MSPNWA to show how more guns equals less gun deaths. He'll disappear faster than Trump to a golf course during a natural disaster.

MSPNWA wrote:
What I find incredibly sad is the "I don't care" attitude. I think you would care if you lost freedoms you enjoy.

What freedoms dear? Gun drills at your child's kindergarten? Sending kids to school with backpacks that double as bullet proof vests? Armed guards at every school and every door doubling as a bullet proof barrier? Looking over your back at every Walmart, church, synagogue, mosque, food festival, country festival, workspace? Dying 10-20x more frequently from guns than any other similar developed country? You use the word "freedom" a lot but have no idea what it means. Seems to involve a lot of bullet proof materials and armed guards. So much freedom.

MSPNWA wrote:
What I find incredibly sad is the "I don't care" attitude.

Oh get off the cross we need the wood. The only people that don't care are the gun nuts who 'don't care' about 30,000 unnecessary deaths every year. You don't care about little children riddled with bullets, ripped to shreds--matter of fact you all get off on dead children because it makes you sound so high and mighty and principled. "Your dead children do not trump muh ritez!" right? So brave. So pro life.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Concierge
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:18 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:23 am

N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:
N1611B wrote:

Once again, if you can't buy a handgun in Chicago, you can't buy one in Wisconsin or Indiana. It is illegal to do so. Your argument is irrelevant.


A person in Indiana can get a gun mush easier than a person in Chicago, no? For example, in Illinois, a background check is required for a private sale, there is a waiting period for gun sales, a buyer needs a state permit etc...


A handgun permit is issued by the county that you live in. If you live in Chicago and can't get a permit there, you can't just go to a gun store across the border and buy a handgun. They are legally prohibited from selling to you.


You just keep repeating this.

Sixty percent of guns seized by Chicago police came from outside Illinois. Twenty percent from Indiana.

Nope, you can't just drive across the state line and provide your real ID and purchase a hand gun.

You can have an Indiana resident buy for you - a straw man purchase. You probably don't have to go that far, the profit motive will get the gun to a Chicago buyer.

I know you prefer to ignore data that contradicts your opinions, but you should let this argument go - guns are coming from Indiana to Chicago.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... urder-rate
Last edited by Concierge on Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:27 am

Concierge wrote:
N1611B wrote:
2122M wrote:

A person in Indiana can get a gun mush easier than a person in Chicago, no? For example, in Illinois, a background check is required for a private sale, there is a waiting period for gun sales, a buyer needs a state permit etc...


A handgun permit is issued by the county that you live in. If you live in Chicago and can't get a permit there, you can't just go to a gun store across the border and buy a handgun. They are legally prohibited from selling to you.


You just keep repeating this.

Sixty percent of guns seized by Chicago police came from outside Illinois. Twenty percent from Indiana.

Nope, you can't just drive across the state line and provide your real ID and purchase a hand gun.

You can have an Indiana resident buy for you - a straw man purchase. You probably don't have to go that far, the profit motive will get the gun to a Chicago buyer. You should let this argument go - guns are coming from Indiana to Chicago.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... urder-rate


Yes, they are coming illegally. Enforcing existing laws would stop that. No new laws needed. If I buy a gun tomorrow and then sell it to a criminal in Chicago, that is a serious felony.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:29 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
2122M wrote:

National gun registry, insurance requirements, universal background checks, allowing the CDC to study gun violence as a public health issue.....

None of the measures prohibit the ownership of firearms by law-abiding citizens, would you give them a shot in a effort to save lives?


Now explain how those measures will conclusively decrease the rate of mass shootings?

Your claim that they will not prohibit law-abiding ownership of firearms is misleading at best. It for certain will inhibit the practice, meaning backdoor prohibition, and it would certainly create the framework to prohibition for law-abiding citizens (like red flag laws do).

2122M wrote:


Not even close to "basic" gun control measures. That was an extreme measure that would be in clear violation of the 2nd Amendment.

2122M wrote:


Your source paints a mixed message on 'basic" measures, far from the conclusive and significant effect necessary for sound legislation.

2122M wrote:

2122M wrote:

See #1

Where is this mountain that "basic" controls work? Is this it?

Here's a fun thing to do--ask MSPNWA to show how more guns equals less gun deaths. He'll disappear faster than Trump to a golf course during a natural disaster.

MSPNWA wrote:
What I find incredibly sad is the "I don't care" attitude. I think you would care if you lost freedoms you enjoy.

What freedoms dear? Gun drills at your child's kindergarten? Sending kids to school with backpacks that double as bullet proof vests? Armed guards at every school and every door doubling as a bullet proof barrier? Looking over your back at every Walmart, church, synagogue, mosque, food festival, country festival, workspace? Dying 10-20x more frequently from guns than any other similar developed country? You use the word "freedom" a lot but have no idea what it means. Seems to involve a lot of bullet proof materials and armed guards. So much freedom.

MSPNWA wrote:
What I find incredibly sad is the "I don't care" attitude.

Oh get off the cross we need the wood. The only people that don't care are the gun nuts who 'don't care' about 30,000 unnecessary deaths every year. You don't care about little children riddled with bullets, ripped to shreds--matter of fact you all get off on dead children because it makes you sound so high and mighty and principled. "Your dead children do not trump muh ritez!" right? So brave. So pro life.


So when are you going to give up your car? After all, is your convenience really worth the lives of dead children? No, you get off on mangled kids and families simply because you have to own an assault car that is capable of going 100 miles per hour.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9729
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:30 am

MSPNWA wrote:
2122M wrote:
I'm sorry if you are uncomfortable with the information provided. It's conclusions run counter to your gut feelings, but I'm afraid there is nothing I can do about that, not does that fact invalidate the studies.

And the registry would slow the free flow of weapons around the country and allow gun owners to be held more accountable. Most people would conclude that as a good thing. I know you are probably of the opinion that anything, and I mean anything that adds one extra step between a person and owning a gun is a terrible, no-good violation of your rights. Frankly, I don't care. Most people support measures that uphold the second amendment but add layers of protection (https://news.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx). If you think otherwise, I'm sure I won't change your mind, but again, I really don't care.


I'm beyond comfortable with the information you provided because it actually supports my argument, as I just exposed. Empirical data is a major issue for those that irrationally fear guns and desire to strip away freedoms.

What I find incredibly sad is the "I don't care" attitude. I think you would care if you lost freedoms you enjoy. Or worse, your government gains permanent control over you. This isn't a democracy. This is a Constitutional Republic. Following polls of ignorant people doesn't equate to sound legislation. Legislators are sworn to protect the minority via the Constitution, not allow mob rule.


People like MSP don’t even recognize they are emotionally locked into protecting a bygone. The US is outranked in personal and economic freedom by such terrible places as Canada, NZ, Australia, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Taiwan etc.

https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index-new

Arguably continued lack of solutions to societal ills in the US is limiting, not enhancing, freedoms. Oh well, it’s important to be able to buy high capacity magazines if one wants SPS thrills from blowing apart gourds and bottles. To hell with making the favorite tools of mass casualty attacks more difficult to obtain.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17585
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:36 am

N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

Now explain how those measures will conclusively decrease the rate of mass shootings?

Your claim that they will not prohibit law-abiding ownership of firearms is misleading at best. It for certain will inhibit the practice, meaning backdoor prohibition, and it would certainly create the framework to prohibition for law-abiding citizens (like red flag laws do).



Not even close to "basic" gun control measures. That was an extreme measure that would be in clear violation of the 2nd Amendment.



Your source paints a mixed message on 'basic" measures, far from the conclusive and significant effect necessary for sound legislation.



See #1

Where is this mountain that "basic" controls work? Is this it?

Here's a fun thing to do--ask MSPNWA to show how more guns equals less gun deaths. He'll disappear faster than Trump to a golf course during a natural disaster.

MSPNWA wrote:
What I find incredibly sad is the "I don't care" attitude. I think you would care if you lost freedoms you enjoy.

What freedoms dear? Gun drills at your child's kindergarten? Sending kids to school with backpacks that double as bullet proof vests? Armed guards at every school and every door doubling as a bullet proof barrier? Looking over your back at every Walmart, church, synagogue, mosque, food festival, country festival, workspace? Dying 10-20x more frequently from guns than any other similar developed country? You use the word "freedom" a lot but have no idea what it means. Seems to involve a lot of bullet proof materials and armed guards. So much freedom.

MSPNWA wrote:
What I find incredibly sad is the "I don't care" attitude.

Oh get off the cross we need the wood. The only people that don't care are the gun nuts who 'don't care' about 30,000 unnecessary deaths every year. You don't care about little children riddled with bullets, ripped to shreds--matter of fact you all get off on dead children because it makes you sound so high and mighty and principled. "Your dead children do not trump muh ritez!" right? So brave. So pro life.


So when are you going to give up your car? After all, is your convenience really worth the lives of dead children? No, you get off on mangled kids and families simply because you have to own an assault car that is capable of going 100 miles per hour.

Great, so I can count on you to support insurance, license, regular testing and registration, etc for all guns from coast to coast regardless of state?

But more importantly, you don't find neanderthals frothing after every accident that what we really need is fewer restrictions on buying and operating a car, and that buying more cars and operating them faster and more carelessly would protect more people from accidents. BECAUSE THAT IS INSANE.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9729
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:40 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Here's a fun thing to do--ask MSPNWA to show how more guns equals less gun deaths. He'll disappear faster than Trump to a golf course during a natural disaster.


What freedoms dear? Gun drills at your child's kindergarten? Sending kids to school with backpacks that double as bullet proof vests? Armed guards at every school and every door doubling as a bullet proof barrier? Looking over your back at every Walmart, church, synagogue, mosque, food festival, country festival, workspace? Dying 10-20x more frequently from guns than any other similar developed country? You use the word "freedom" a lot but have no idea what it means. Seems to involve a lot of bullet proof materials and armed guards. So much freedom.


Oh get off the cross we need the wood. The only people that don't care are the gun nuts who 'don't care' about 30,000 unnecessary deaths every year. You don't care about little children riddled with bullets, ripped to shreds--matter of fact you all get off on dead children because it makes you sound so high and mighty and principled. "Your dead children do not trump muh ritez!" right? So brave. So pro life.


So when are you going to give up your car? After all, is your convenience really worth the lives of dead children? No, you get off on mangled kids and families simply because you have to own an assault car that is capable of going 100 miles per hour.

Great, so I can count on you to support insurance, license, regular testing and registration, etc for all guns from coast to coast regardless of state?

But more importantly, you don't find neanderthals frothing after every accident that what we really need is fewer restrictions on buying and operating a car, and that buying more cars and operating them faster and more carelessly would protect more people from accidents. BECAUSE THAT IS INSANE.


Well played sir!
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 20750
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:00 am

By right wing standards, we should be able to buy metal tipped lawn darts anytime, anywhere for any purpose. Why can't we?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Concierge
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:18 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:00 am

N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:

Now explain how those measures will conclusively decrease the rate of mass shootings?

Your claim that they will not prohibit law-abiding ownership of firearms is misleading at best. It for certain will inhibit the practice, meaning backdoor prohibition, and it would certainly create the framework to prohibition for law-abiding citizens (like red flag laws do).



Not even close to "basic" gun control measures. That was an extreme measure that would be in clear violation of the 2nd Amendment.



Your source paints a mixed message on 'basic" measures, far from the conclusive and significant effect necessary for sound legislation.



See #1

Where is this mountain that "basic" controls work? Is this it?

Here's a fun thing to do--ask MSPNWA to show how more guns equals less gun deaths. He'll disappear faster than Trump to a golf course during a natural disaster.

MSPNWA wrote:
What I find incredibly sad is the "I don't care" attitude. I think you would care if you lost freedoms you enjoy.

What freedoms dear? Gun drills at your child's kindergarten? Sending kids to school with backpacks that double as bullet proof vests? Armed guards at every school and every door doubling as a bullet proof barrier? Looking over your back at every Walmart, church, synagogue, mosque, food festival, country festival, workspace? Dying 10-20x more frequently from guns than any other similar developed country? You use the word "freedom" a lot but have no idea what it means. Seems to involve a lot of bullet proof materials and armed guards. So much freedom.

MSPNWA wrote:
What I find incredibly sad is the "I don't care" attitude.

Oh get off the cross we need the wood. The only people that don't care are the gun nuts who 'don't care' about 30,000 unnecessary deaths every year. You don't care about little children riddled with bullets, ripped to shreds--matter of fact you all get off on dead children because it makes you sound so high and mighty and principled. "Your dead children do not trump muh ritez!" right? So brave. So pro life.


So when are you going to give up your car? After all, is your convenience really worth the lives of dead children? No, you get off on mangled kids and families simply because you have to own an assault car that is capable of going 100 miles per hour.


You do rely on your 'Greatest Hits'. The car thing again? Next up, garbage disposals....
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:02 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Here's a fun thing to do--ask MSPNWA to show how more guns equals less gun deaths. He'll disappear faster than Trump to a golf course during a natural disaster.


What freedoms dear? Gun drills at your child's kindergarten? Sending kids to school with backpacks that double as bullet proof vests? Armed guards at every school and every door doubling as a bullet proof barrier? Looking over your back at every Walmart, church, synagogue, mosque, food festival, country festival, workspace? Dying 10-20x more frequently from guns than any other similar developed country? You use the word "freedom" a lot but have no idea what it means. Seems to involve a lot of bullet proof materials and armed guards. So much freedom.


Oh get off the cross we need the wood. The only people that don't care are the gun nuts who 'don't care' about 30,000 unnecessary deaths every year. You don't care about little children riddled with bullets, ripped to shreds--matter of fact you all get off on dead children because it makes you sound so high and mighty and principled. "Your dead children do not trump muh ritez!" right? So brave. So pro life.


So when are you going to give up your car? After all, is your convenience really worth the lives of dead children? No, you get off on mangled kids and families simply because you have to own an assault car that is capable of going 100 miles per hour.

Great, so I can count on you to support insurance, license, regular testing and registration, etc for all guns from coast to coast regardless of state?

But more importantly, you don't find neanderthals frothing after every accident that what we really need is fewer restrictions on buying and operating a car, and that buying more cars and operating them faster and more carelessly would protect more people from accidents. BECAUSE THAT IS INSANE.


Sure, as you as you get an amendment passed stating that driving is a constitutional right, like firearm ownership is.
 
Concierge
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:18 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:04 am

N1611B wrote:
Concierge wrote:
N1611B wrote:

A handgun permit is issued by the county that you live in. If you live in Chicago and can't get a permit there, you can't just go to a gun store across the border and buy a handgun. They are legally prohibited from selling to you.


You just keep repeating this.

Sixty percent of guns seized by Chicago police came from outside Illinois. Twenty percent from Indiana.

Nope, you can't just drive across the state line and provide your real ID and purchase a hand gun.

You can have an Indiana resident buy for you - a straw man purchase. You probably don't have to go that far, the profit motive will get the gun to a Chicago buyer. You should let this argument go - guns are coming from Indiana to Chicago.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... urder-rate


Yes, they are coming illegally. Enforcing existing laws would stop that. No new laws needed. If I buy a gun tomorrow and then sell it to a criminal in Chicago, that is a serious felony.


The ease of purchasing guns in Indiana is part of the problem. I await your sincere denial of this...
 
Concierge
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:18 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:09 am

N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
N1611B wrote:

So when are you going to give up your car? After all, is your convenience really worth the lives of dead children? No, you get off on mangled kids and families simply because you have to own an assault car that is capable of going 100 miles per hour.

Great, so I can count on you to support insurance, license, regular testing and registration, etc for all guns from coast to coast regardless of state?

But more importantly, you don't find neanderthals frothing after every accident that what we really need is fewer restrictions on buying and operating a car, and that buying more cars and operating them faster and more carelessly would protect more people from accidents. BECAUSE THAT IS INSANE.


Sure, as you as you get an amendment passed stating that driving is a constitutional right, like firearm ownership is.


Rights come with limitations - even those in the constitution. You do love that car analogy - vroom, vroom
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 20750
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:11 am

N1611B wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
N1611B wrote:

So when are you going to give up your car? After all, is your convenience really worth the lives of dead children? No, you get off on mangled kids and families simply because you have to own an assault car that is capable of going 100 miles per hour.

Great, so I can count on you to support insurance, license, regular testing and registration, etc for all guns from coast to coast regardless of state?

But more importantly, you don't find neanderthals frothing after every accident that what we really need is fewer restrictions on buying and operating a car, and that buying more cars and operating them faster and more carelessly would protect more people from accidents. BECAUSE THAT IS INSANE.


Sure, as you as you get an amendment passed stating that driving is a constitutional right, like firearm ownership is.


Ever since cars were invented, there have been modifications and upgrades to make them more reliable and safer. In addition, the government has gotten involved to insist that people who own cars take out insurance in case of an accident. And, governments get involved to make sure that those who operate autos know how to safely operate them. As we saw in Charlottesville, cars can be used to kill.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17585
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:13 am

seb146 wrote:
By right wing standards, we should be able to buy metal tipped lawn darts anytime, anywhere for any purpose. Why can't we?

A girl was killed by them in 1987, so they were banned in 1988. Clearly we should repeal the ban and let everyone buy them in order to protect more people from....lawn darts.

N1611B wrote:
Sure, as you as you get an amendment passed stating that driving is a constitutional right, like firearm ownership is.

Then why'd you bother making the car argument if you were just going to negate it? You'll have to scroll back up and see where someone else told you an amendment doesn't mean a free-for-all. And then we can repeat all your dumb arguments all over again and end up right back here. :banghead:
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:37 am

Concierge wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Concierge wrote:

You just keep repeating this.

Sixty percent of guns seized by Chicago police came from outside Illinois. Twenty percent from Indiana.

Nope, you can't just drive across the state line and provide your real ID and purchase a hand gun.

You can have an Indiana resident buy for you - a straw man purchase. You probably don't have to go that far, the profit motive will get the gun to a Chicago buyer. You should let this argument go - guns are coming from Indiana to Chicago.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states ... urder-rate


Yes, they are coming illegally. Enforcing existing laws would stop that. No new laws needed. If I buy a gun tomorrow and then sell it to a criminal in Chicago, that is a serious felony.


The ease of purchasing guns in Indiana is part of the problem. I await your sincere denial of this...


It is illegal for someone banned from purchasing a handgun in Chicago to purchase a handgun in Indiana.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 20750
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:48 am

N1611B wrote:
Concierge wrote:
N1611B wrote:

Yes, they are coming illegally. Enforcing existing laws would stop that. No new laws needed. If I buy a gun tomorrow and then sell it to a criminal in Chicago, that is a serious felony.


The ease of purchasing guns in Indiana is part of the problem. I await your sincere denial of this...


It is illegal for someone banned from purchasing a handgun in Chicago to purchase a handgun in Indiana.


Even private sales? What about Illinois law? Someone going from downtown Chicago to Joliet?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:50 am

seb146 wrote:
N1611B wrote:
Concierge wrote:

The ease of purchasing guns in Indiana is part of the problem. I await your sincere denial of this...


It is illegal for someone banned from purchasing a handgun in Chicago to purchase a handgun in Indiana.


Even private sales? What about Illinois law? Someone going from downtown Chicago to Joliet?


Yes, even private sales. And you have to obtain a firearm purchase permit from the county that you live in. If you live in Chicago and can't get a permit, then you are not allowed to buy a handgun anywhere.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3323
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:29 am

N1611B wrote:
seb146 wrote:
N1611B wrote:

It is illegal for someone banned from purchasing a handgun in Chicago to purchase a handgun in Indiana.


Even private sales? What about Illinois law? Someone going from downtown Chicago to Joliet?


Yes, even private sales. And you have to obtain a firearm purchase permit from the county that you live in. If you live in Chicago and can't get a permit, then you are not allowed to buy a handgun anywhere.


And how is that supposed to be enforced if private sales in Indiana don't require any kind of background check.

"Well, he told me he lived in Hammond, how would I know he really is from Chicago, he seemed a nice guy and paid cash".

A law without the means to enforce might as well not exist.
 
extender
Posts: 340
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 8:19 am

So why create more laws that won't be enforced?
 
JJJ
Posts: 3323
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:01 am

extender wrote:
So why create more laws that won't be enforced?


Why not set the conditions so that laws can be enforced instead?

The US has shown willingness to spend and legislate big when it comes to protect the common people.
 
extender
Posts: 340
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:33 am

What many pro-gun people have said all along: enforce existing laws.

It has been said, and these boards are evident, all the media attention makes these unstable loons think more about getting their 15 minutes of fame.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3323
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:56 am

extender wrote:
What many pro-gun people have said all along: enforce existing laws.


You can't.

You can't stop Chicago residents from buying guns in Indiana unless Indiana private or gun show sellers are forced to do background and proof of residence checks, just to name the case that's being discussed lately in this thread.

Straw purchasing will continue to be a problem as long as people can get off by saying "oh, he seemed a nice guy".

Put reasonable burden on the seller and you start getting somewhere.
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:44 am

I bit of a contradiction there JJJ...

JJJ wrote:
Why not set the conditions so that laws can be enforced instead?


Then you come up with this:

extender wrote:
JJJ wrote:
What many pro-gun people have said all along: enforce existing laws.

JJJ wrote:
You can't.


Which is it? One more time for the cheap seats: It ain't gonna happen, no matter how hurt your feelings are.
 
JJJ
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:58 am

Where's the contradiction?

I'm saying Chicago gun laws can't be enforced as long as residents have a truck-sized loophole with private and gun show purchasing in Indiana.

Laws against straw purchasing are toothless because the straw purchasing can simply claim they thought they were selling it in good faith to a legitimate buyer.

You can call all you want for current laws to be enforced, but you aren't giving law enforcement the right tools to do it it won't work.
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:45 am

JJJ wrote:
Where's the contradiction?

I'm saying Chicago gun laws can't be enforced as long as residents have a truck-sized loophole with private and gun show purchasing in Indiana.

Laws against straw purchasing are toothless because the straw purchasing can simply claim they thought they were selling it in good faith to a legitimate buyer.

You can call all you want for current laws to be enforced, but you aren't giving law enforcement the right tools to do it it won't work.


There is no loophole. An Illinois resident cannot buy a gun in Indiana. Illegal. Against an existing law.

Law enforcement is just that, enforcement of the law. They don't make the law. The legislature, legislates.

We can't be as savvy pistoleros as you, but your argument doesn't wash.
 
JJJ
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:01 pm

extender wrote:

There is no loophole. An Illinois resident cannot buy a gun in Indiana. Illegal. Against an existing law.


And how are Illinois cops supposed to know? Laws can't deter if you can't get caught. That's the enforcement part of the whole thing.
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:25 pm

Are you serious? Franco has long since died. You don't prosecute someone for what they may do. Due process.

There are many things that can be done, but Illinois is so debt ridden that it barely does what it has to. You want to complain? Go to the legislature. You're idea of curtailing rights is bupkis.
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:40 pm

JJJ wrote:
extender wrote:

There is no loophole. An Illinois resident cannot buy a gun in Indiana. Illegal. Against an existing law.


And how are Illinois cops supposed to know? Laws can't deter if you can't get caught. That's the enforcement part of the whole thing.


Yea, he's not getting this at all. He (or she) and others will say 'no new laws, enforce current laws' but then refuse to support legislation that would allow the current law to be properly enforced. Its like telling the cops to go out and catch speeders but refusing to supply them radar guns. If I didn't know any better I'd have to assume extender is a big supporter of gun crime as he's fighting pretty hard to keep the current laws unenforceable.
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:55 pm

2122M wrote:
...but then refuse to support legislation that would allow the current law to be properly enforced.


You want to read that again? If it is a law already, why would you need additional legislation to enforce it?

2122M wrote:
Its like telling the cops to go out and catch speeders but refusing to supply them radar guns.


If you only have one tool on your belt, the bad guys will figure out a way around it. Radar isn't the only method to catch speeders, Laser, aircraft, undercover cars, etc.

2122M wrote:
If I didn't know any better I'd have to assume extender is a big supporter of gun crime as he's fighting pretty hard to keep the current laws unenforceable.


You don't know any better, and there you go making assumptions.
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:15 pm

extender wrote:
2122M wrote:
...but then refuse to support legislation that would allow the current law to be properly enforced.


You want to read that again? If it is a law already, why would you need additional legislation to enforce it?


I can pass laws all day long, but they don't' mean a thing unless I'm given the tools to enforce it. What is it about this concept that is so hard for you to grasp?

For example, wait no, I gave you an example and you didn't like it for some reason. Let me amend it for you:

It would be like asking cops to catch speeders but then not giving them any way of detecting how fast cars are going. Or setting vehicle emission standards but making it illegal to test vehicle emissions. What about setting maximum weight limits for trucks but banning weigh stations.

Any of these working for you? If you don't like car analogies I can think of others instead, you just let me know what it would take for you to understand that writing a law on paper means nothing unless you also build in an enforcement mechanism.
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:07 pm

LEGISLATION>>>VOTE>>>PASSES>>>LAW... Simple concept. Depends how you write the law. If you make it enforceable, then that is all it should take. Now, if the police can't enforce the law, because too many patrol cars are inoperative, because your bloated budget doesn't allow the upkeep, the problem is no longer the law, is it?
 
alfa164
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:20 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
And then we can repeat all your dumb arguments all over again and end up right back here. :banghead:


You are dealing with someone who joined one week ago, seemingly just to play the role of provocateur... or maybe to advertise his new business: "DUMB ARGUMENTS 'R US"...

:roll:
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:31 pm

alfa164 wrote:
You are dealing with someone who joined one week ago, seemingly just to play the role of provocateur... or maybe to advertise his new business: "DUMB ARGUMENTS 'R US"...

:roll:


One week ago? Not very good at reading comprehension, are you?
 
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Tugger
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:31 pm

extender wrote:
LEGISLATION>>>VOTE>>>PASSES>>>LAW... Simple concept. Depends how you write the law. If you make it enforceable, then that is all it should take. Now, if the police can't enforce the law, because too many patrol cars are inoperative, because your bloated budget doesn't allow the upkeep, the problem is no longer the law, is it?

Wow, you are actually saying you have no concept of how there are situations where laws need to be amended, updated, withdrawn etc. because they are not effective or are unenforceable as conceived?

Texas has no need to change their laws?
DALLAS (CBSDFW.COM) – Federal law enforcement sources confirm the Odessa, Texas mass shooter was denied a gun purchase after being determined “mentally unfit.”

Texas DPS tells CBS 11 the denial came January 14, 2014.

DPS wouldn’t comment further citing its ongoing investigation into Saturday’s shooting in Midland-Odessa that killed seven people and injured 22 others.

The shooter, Seth Ator, 36, was shot and killed by law enforcement officers.

CBS 11 also confirmed the gunman purchased his weapon from a private seller and not a licensed gun dealer, which allowed him to evade a background check.

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/09/03/mid ... und-check/

Extender, are you sure you support that Texas should in no way adjust or amend their laws?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Tugger
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:35 pm

extender wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
You are dealing with someone who joined one week ago, seemingly just to play the role of provocateur... or maybe to advertise his new business: "DUMB ARGUMENTS 'R US"...

:roll:


One week ago? Not very good at reading comprehension, are you?

Reading comprehension? Did you actually go and look at what post the response was referring to (it wasn't you/yours)? Or just make an assumption with out review for adequate comprehension? I'll give you a hint, the comment was referring to N1611B.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
alfa164
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:46 pm

extender wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
You are dealing with someone who joined one week ago, seemingly just to play the role of provocateur... or maybe to advertise his new business: "DUMB ARGUMENTS 'R US"...

:roll:


One week ago? Not very good at reading comprehension, are you?


My reading comprehension is fine. Yours - and your thought processes - seem to be running a deficit.

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:50 pm

I get it, you all swarm over dissenting viewpoints...
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:57 pm

extender wrote:
LEGISLATION>>>VOTE>>>PASSES>>>LAW...


I bet when you go overseas and people don't speak English, you are the kind of person that just repeats what you are saying in English, but louder and slower like that will help at all.

Anyway, at this point you are being willfully ignorant and you are obviously not the kind of person interested in having a productive discussion, so lets just end it here:


I propose reinforcing current unenforceable or extremely difficult to enforce laws by passing legislation that gives law enforcement better tools to use to enforce those laws.

You are apparently happy doing nothing at letting this gun violence continue unabated.
 
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Tugger
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:01 pm

extender wrote:
I get it, you all swarm over dissenting viewpoints...

You're kidding, right? You make an obvious mistake and are called on it and I make a valid point toward your statement that laws shouldn't be changed (only enforced no matter what I guess?) and you try to claim that you are being "ganged up on"?

Wow, talk about the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:11 pm

2122M wrote:
I bet when you go overseas and people don't speak English, you are the kind of person that just repeats what you are saying in English, but louder and slower like that will help at all.


Wrong again, thanks for trying though. Back to assumptions.

2122M wrote:
Anyway, at this point you are being willfully ignorant and you are obviously not the kind of person interested in having a productive discussion, so lets just end it here:


Last word, huh? Not.

2122M wrote:
I propose reinforcing current unenforceable or extremely difficult to enforce laws by passing legislation that gives law enforcement better tools to use to enforce those laws.


Fine, have at it. Write your legislators.

2122M wrote:
You are apparently happy doing nothing at letting this gun violence continue unabated.


There you go with the assumptions again. But you are wrong, again. I think violence needs to be addressed. I think the police needs to do something about it, without having to get handcuffed by corrupt, or stupid city governments.

Do something about that, but don't think your feelings trump what anybody's rights are.
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:33 pm

extender wrote:
There you go with the assumptions again. But you are wrong, again. I think violence needs to be addressed. I think the police needs to do something about it, without having to get handcuffed by corrupt, or stupid city governments.


OK, go. Suggest something. Under the current system and using current rules, what can the police do to keep guns off the streets?
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:39 pm

Sweeps, checkpoints to name a few. But wait, that's profiling. Profiling bad, can't do that. See what I mean about being handcuffed?
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:41 pm

extender wrote:
Sweeps, checkpoints to name a few. But wait, that's profiling. Profiling bad, can't do that. See what I mean about being handcuffed?


I thought you were in favor of preserving people rights. 2nd amendment good, 4th amendment bad?
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:46 pm

All good, let's see your suggestions:
 
2122M
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:48 pm

extender wrote:
All good, let's see your suggestions:


Are you two different people? Have you not been a part of this conversation for the last couple of days? I laid out my suggestions in clear detail over and over again in this thread. I'm not retyping the whole damn thing. Just scroll up.
 
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Tugger
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:55 pm

2122M wrote:
extender wrote:
All good, let's see your suggestions:


Are you two different people? Have you not been a part of this conversation for the last couple of days? I laid out my suggestions in clear detail over and over again in this thread. I'm not retyping the whole damn thing. Just scroll up.

If you notice, he ignores anyone or any post that requires anything beyond a simple reply..

As you and others have, I've called him out on a couple things and his only response was "you are being mean!". No actual input or cohesive response. He wants your suggestions so he(? I assume it a he) can take pot shots at them without being at anymore risk of "being swarmed" with any ideas he posts.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:05 pm

Don't subscribe to your brand of horse manure. Keep slapping yourselves on the back.
 
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seb146
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:09 pm

extender wrote:
LEGISLATION>>>VOTE>>>PASSES>>>LAW... Simple concept. Depends how you write the law. If you make it enforceable, then that is all it should take. Now, if the police can't enforce the law, because too many patrol cars are inoperative, because your bloated budget doesn't allow the upkeep, the problem is no longer the law, is it?


There are plenty of laws on the books regarding gun control They are not enforced, however, because gun nuts and NRA and their base keep crying about how it violates their Second Amendment rights. That was one thing Heller was about. We can not define who is in a militia because it violates someone's right to own guns.

We have a law. It is right there in the first four words of the Second Amendment. But, Republicans refuse to enforce that part of the law. They even sued to ignore that part of the law.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
extender
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Re: At least 5 dead in West Texas shooting after traffic stop

Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:16 pm

Get over the crap with the NRA. The NRA doesn't go about killing anyone. Name one mas shooter that was an NRA member. You're not going to find it.
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