alfa164
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Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:26 am

Robert Mugabe, former President of Zimbabwe, has died in Singapore at the age of 95. He had gone to the Asian city-state for medical treatment after being deposed as leader of that nation.

It was Mugabe who brought from its Colonial era and subsequent white-ruled government, when it was known as Rhodesia, into one of the first African nations to succeed under black leadership. It was also Mugabe, though, who seemed to relish in the power and financial benefits he gained, until he ultimately made himself a defacto dictator - supported by his strong-arming war veterans, until he lost their support in November of 2017.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9868586/r ... we-leader/
Last edited by alfa164 on Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aaron747
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:33 am

Mugabe was successful for about two years - the rest of the time he was a selfish dick who robbed his country and people of potential, much like the ANC has done in SA post-Mandela. His legacy will be one of leaving disaster and poverty in his wake.
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:57 am

Good riddance, not many will mourn his passing.

alfa164 wrote:
Robert Mugabe, former President of Zimbabwe, has died in Singapore at the age of 95. He had gone to the Asian city-state for medical treatment after being deposed as leader of that nation.

It was Mugabe who brought from its Colonial era and subsequent white-ruled government, when it was known as Rhodesia, into one of the first African nations to succeed under black leadership. It was also Mugabe, though, who seemed to relish in the power and financial benefits he gained, until he ultimately made himself a defacto dictator - supported by his strong-arming war veterans, until he lost their support in November of 2017.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9868586/r ... we-leader/


Succeed under black leadership, if that's your idea of a successful country run by black leaders I'd hate to see what a failed state is. The sad thing about Zimbabwe is South Africa is heading in the same direction, with the recent Land Reform Process, which like in Zimbabwe is failing.

A survey by the Financial and Fiscal Commission in Limpopo province, KwaZulu-Natal and the Eastern Cape found that most land reform farms show little or no agricultural activity, the land reform beneficiaries earn little to no income and most of those beneficiaries seek work on surrounding commercial farms instead of actively farming their own land. If farming is taking place on land reform farms, these farms operate below their full agricultural potential and are mainly used for subsistence agriculture. On average, crop production had decreased by 79% since conversion to land reform. In the three provinces surveyed, job losses averaged 84%, with KwaZulu-Natal suffering a 94% job haemorrhage.
 
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:25 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Mugabe was successful for about two years - the rest of the time he was a selfish dick who robbed his country and people of potential, much like the ANC has done in SA post-Mandela. His legacy will be one of leaving disaster and poverty in his wake.


From freedom fighter to one of the more successful African leaders to a terrible autocratic leader leaving his country in despair. He should have stopped after 5 or 10 years after becoming President.
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Pellegrine
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:23 am

RIP. He appears to be a mini-Mobutu with the amounts he expropriated from his country.
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:53 am

alfa164 wrote:

It was Mugabe who brought from its Colonial era and subsequent white-ruled government, when it was known as Rhodesia, into one of the first African nations to .

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9868586/r ... we-leader/

Here we see blissful Zimbabweans carrying enough money to buy half a loaf of bread under the successful black leadership of Mugabe and his Communist cronies.

.
Image
 
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scbriml
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:02 am

I doubt anyone will lmiss him.
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:25 am

I'm at work, see, and I just posted the news in our group chat: Robert Mugabe has died.

Fully twenty minutes later, I'm not detecting, like mega-grief from the crowd.
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readytotaxi
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:54 am

What will happen to all the monies he had in China banks, he made sure Grace could not get her hands on it. Guess it wont find its way back to the people, Very few people will mourn his overdue passing.
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GDB
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:21 pm

Rob and Grace were overdue a Ceausescu style solution by about 20 years.

Though Zimbabwe is now under the care of one of his long time cronies known as 'The Crocodile'.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:42 pm

Mugabe is a great example of how power corrupts. It got worse as he aged and he just wants to stay in charge.

Sadly, Zimbabwe would take decades to recover. From one of the breadbasket of Africa to a Basket Case.
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alfa164
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:23 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Mugabe is a great example of how power corrupts. It got worse as he aged and he just wants to stay in charge. Sadly, Zimbabwe would take decades to recover. From one of the breadbasket of Africa to a Basket Case.


That, unfortunately, seems to be the common outcome of these self-styled "revolutionary" movement; the leaders want to eliminate colonialism/corruption/lack-of-democracy, but - once in office - they succumb to the trappings of power and wealth. Zimbabwe... Cuba... Venezuela... so many examples in the world. Even presumably first-world pseudo-democracies (Putin's Russia comes to mind) are not immune from these tragedies.

All of these states will take a long time - if ever, in our lifetimes - to recover.
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ArchGuy1
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:48 pm

How is Zimbabwe doing under the current president.
 
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:28 pm

Good, About time. They should leave his corpse out for the hyenas and vultures to pick at his bones or throw it over the Vic Falls down the zambezi for the crocodiles. We should all rejoice at the prospect of his death, although it is a pity he was never tried for his crimes.
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:07 am

alfa164 wrote:

That, unfortunately, seems to be the common outcome of these self-styled "revolutionary" movement; the leaders want to eliminate colonialism/corruption/lack-of-democracy, but - once in office - they succumb to the trappings of power and wealth. Zimbabwe... Cuba... Venezuela... so many examples in the world. Even presumably first-world pseudo-democracies (Putin's Russia comes to mind) are not immune from these tragedies.

All of these states will take a long time - if ever, in our lifetimes - to recover.


In fairness, there's more to it than that. Sure, the trappings of power are absolutely a thing.

But there's also the fact that no dictator can actually run a place by themselves. There are a number of people, from generals to waste water managers that matter, and know they matter. In most cases, they've also set themselves up to where they're not easily replaced.

A dictator who doesn't know how to manage that (read: pay the hell off and on time), won't stay in power for long.

Often as not, what looks like corruption from the outside is as much desperation as anything else. . .


So there's that.
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Aaron747
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:32 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

That, unfortunately, seems to be the common outcome of these self-styled "revolutionary" movement; the leaders want to eliminate colonialism/corruption/lack-of-democracy, but - once in office - they succumb to the trappings of power and wealth. Zimbabwe... Cuba... Venezuela... so many examples in the world. Even presumably first-world pseudo-democracies (Putin's Russia comes to mind) are not immune from these tragedies.

All of these states will take a long time - if ever, in our lifetimes - to recover.


In fairness, there's more to it than that. Sure, the trappings of power are absolutely a thing.

But there's also the fact that no dictator can actually run a place by themselves. There are a number of people, from generals to waste water managers that matter, and know they matter. In most cases, they've also set themselves up to where they're not easily replaced.

A dictator who doesn't know how to manage that (read: pay the hell off and on time), won't stay in power for long.

Often as not, what looks like corruption from the outside is as much desperation as anything else. . .


So there's that.


And of course these hangers-on feed the powerful information that aids their agendas and in some cases enhances their wealth. It doesn’t only occur in banana republics, unfortunately...
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BlueberryWheats
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:46 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
How is Zimbabwe doing under the current president.


I doubt it will be a viable tourist destination. You don't need an observation deck to see that!
 
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OA260
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:26 am

scbriml wrote:
I doubt anyone will lmiss him.


Yep turned the bread basket of Africa into a basket case ! Some Zimbabweans say they were better under Colonial rule ironically.
 
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:38 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
In fairness, there's more to it than that. Sure, the trappings of power are absolutely a thing.

But there's also the fact that no dictator can actually run a place by themselves. There are a number of people, from generals to waste water managers that matter, and know they matter. In most cases, they've also set themselves up to where they're not easily replaced.

A dictator who doesn't know how to manage that (read: pay the hell off and on time), won't stay in power for long.

Often as not, what looks like corruption from the outside is as much desperation as anything else. . .


So there's that.

The keys to gain power are not the same as the keys to remain in power. Have you noticed that as soon as someone gains power they immediately purge the system? Even the most loyal of followers is not immune if the leader believes they may pose a threat in the future.
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:09 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
In fairness, there's more to it than that. Sure, the trappings of power are absolutely a thing.

But there's also the fact that no dictator can actually run a place by themselves. There are a number of people, from generals to waste water managers that matter, and know they matter. In most cases, they've also set themselves up to where they're not easily replaced.

A dictator who doesn't know how to manage that (read: pay the hell off and on time), won't stay in power for long.

Often as not, what looks like corruption from the outside is as much desperation as anything else. . .


So there's that.

The keys to gain power are not the same as the keys to remain in power. Have you noticed that as soon as someone gains power they immediately purge the system? Even the most loyal of followers is not immune if the leader believes they may pose a threat in the future.


Indeed. That and anyone who shows a bit too much competency, in particular, will be at risk.

In any case, purges do happen after the fact, but even those have to be managed carefully. It came out in one of Saddam's trials that he near-as-dammit lost control of the whole thing about two weeks after he took over Iraq. He'd gotten rid of whomever it was that was in charge of Waste Water Mgmt and that system ground to a literal halt.

None of the people he'd put in charge of it really knew what they were doing and it took the better part of a year before things were more or less normal again.

The most amazing thing about it was the fact that they'd held such a clamp on that, that it was several years after the americans invited themselves over before any of that become public knowledge outside of Iraq.


In any case, those placed in charge of things to cover the older gate keepers there still have a tendency to evolve to what the previous cycle contained. The problem there never really goes away, and a mix of capital and fear need to be managed just right for things to really work out.
Anyway, yeah, you're right about all that. I personally find Dictatorships and (absolute) Monarchies pretty interesting for these reasons. It's probably not a coincidence how much these things resemble publicly traded corporate structures WRT their general dynamics. . .

Aaron747 wrote:
And of course these hangers-on feed the powerful information that aids their agendas and in some cases enhances their wealth. It doesn’t only occur in banana republics, unfortunately...



Absolutely. Most democratic republics have literally mechanized this process. The institutionalized lobbying in the usa is one shining example, but in most other places, these influences remain strong as ever, if not as formalized.
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Iloveboeing
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:09 am

Mugabe was a terrible leader and, under his regime, his government went after white landowners and did atrocious crimes against them and their families.

I had a fellow student in high school who was white and from Zimbabwe and she spoke with a British-descended accent. Her family evacuated her and her siblings from the country and sent them to the United States, because there was a high probability of them being raped, tortured or worse had they remained.

She also said that Mugabe was close to other corrupt African leaders and she specifically mentioned former South African President Thabo Mbeki, who she said would come to Harare and they'd "get drunk all the time."

She added that Zimbabwe has a lot of venomous snakes and that if you got bitten by one, they would throw you on a plane to South Africa and you'd better pray hard that you make it. The healthcare in Zimbabwe is/was that bad.

I pray that Zimbabwe and all of Africa makes progress. Hopefully it all will improve as time goes on.
 
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:49 pm

Couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.

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Super80Fan
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:21 pm

As others have said, couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.
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L410Turbolet
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:45 pm

Tugger wrote:
Couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.

Tugg


Living 'till he's 95?
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:55 pm

Tugger wrote:
Couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.

Super80Fan wrote:
As others have said, couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy.


He lives until 95 y/o, that's longer than MANY people, and especially people from Zimbabwe (Life Expectancy is now back up to ~60 years, but it was down in the 50s just a decade ago).

BlueberryWheats wrote:
I doubt it will be a viable tourist destination. You don't need an observation deck to see that!


Two words - Victoria Falls.

There's Hwange NP (relatively) nearby also.

Zimbabwe may not be places like France or Thailand, but it's not Chad or Burkina Faso or Central African Republic, either. Hack, unlike places like South Africa, the likelihood of one getting robbed/carjacked or even murdered in Zimbabwe is actually relatively low (It's not zero, but it's not a daily occurrence, either)
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Tugger
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:05 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.

Tugg


Living 'till he's 95?

No: Dying.

Good riddance.

Tugg
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Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:15 am

Tugger wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Couldn't happen to a more deserving guy.

Tugg


Living 'till he's 95?

No: Dying.

Good riddance.

Tugg


Living in impunity, until he's 95, pampered till the last minute. He deserved to die the way Ceausescu or Kaddafi did.
 
seat64k
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:08 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Two words - Victoria Falls.


This alone (at the right time of the year) is enough to make the trip worth it. That said, you can see it from Zambia for half the price. There's also the thrill of bungee jumping over the crocodile infested Zambezi river. I'm told it's an experience to die for.
 
alfa164
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:21 pm

seat64k wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Two words - Victoria Falls.

This alone (at the right time of the year) is enough to make the trip worth it. That said, you can see it from Zambia for half the price. There's also the thrill of bungee jumping over the crocodile infested Zambezi river. I'm told it's an experience to die for.


Zambia is half price... but you see less than half the falls. For the most part, the water falls from the Zambian side, and faces the Zimbabwe border - making the dramatic face of the falls visible only from the Zimbabwe side.. You can, however, swim in the upper pool on the Zambian side - right on the edge of the falls - and that is a popular attraction. You are required to buy a visa to enter Zambia; it can be done as an e-visa, but must be done in advance. The visa from Zimbabwe is available on arrival.
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seat64k
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:01 pm

alfa164 wrote:
This alone (at the right time of the year) is enough to make the trip worth it. That said, you can see it from Zambia for half the price. There's also the thrill of bungee jumping over the crocodile infested Zambezi river. I'm told it's an experience to die for.


You're right, it's about a 1/3rd on the Zambia side. That said, how much you see depends heavily on which time of the year you go and what the rainfall was like. After towards the end of a normal rain season, you can't see the face of the falls on the Zimbabwe size - the spray is too intense. Around this time, the Zambia side is just right. At other times - towards the end of the winter and before the rain starts, the Zambia side is a a few trickles and Zim size is just right.

alfa164 wrote:
You can, however, swim in the upper pool on the Zambian side - right on the edge of the falls - and that is a popular attraction.


Interesting! I didn't know this. I've only ever crossed to the Zambia side from Zim - go straight to the falls, rent a raincoat, have a look, fight off the baboons, then drive back.
 
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:32 pm

Good.
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DTVG
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Re: Robert Mugabe dead at 95

Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:51 am

You don't have to agree with him on a moral level, but Mugabe is a legend who knew how to play his own people as we as all the foreign (especially western) countries in order to stay in power.

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