extender
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Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:53 pm

Lots of people asking for more laws. They complain why laws can't be enforced. If the state can't be arsed to fund their LEO, any argument is futile.

Using Illinois as an example.

Link
 
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Tugger
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:05 pm

You are using a link to an article about increased income taxes as a basis for a discussion on "more laws"?

That doesn't make sense.

As to the idea of "more laws", based on previous discussions you have participated in, it appears you are not willing to grasp that it's not "more laws" but rather a willingness to attack problems as they are found and if addressable by legislation, to use that tool. In addition, there needs to be to ability to address weaknesses or loop holes (for want of a better word) but amending and fixing existing law.

The problem comes when people are not able to understand this and flat out stop all attempts to have government function as needed.

I myself, in general prefer to have sunset clauses in almost all legislation so that laws can be revised as their times come for review and renewal. However that does not work if you have a group refuse to allow any work to be done to re-authorize or reform needed legislation.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
2122M
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:08 pm

extender wrote:
Lots of people asking for more laws. They complain why laws can't be enforced. If the state can't be arsed to fund their LEO, any argument is futile.

Using Illinois as an example.

Link


Illinois is a mess. They have a loooong history of corruption and bad governance. I'm lost on the broader point you are trying to make regarding new laws though. I can only assume you are referencing the discussion about gun laws in the aftermath of the mass shooting in Odessa and I don't quite see how you are drawing the line from one states gross mismanagement of funds to a nationwide effort to reduce gun violence.
 
extender
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:31 pm

It is hard to enforce any law, when there are issues with funding for law enforcement. Many of you are saying laws need to be enforced. Who enforces the law? The government. When the government has limited resources, they will cherry pick cases to be cost effective.

There's that loophole again. How do you plan on addressing the loophole? Isn't stopping violence a more immediate problem. Shouldn't the resources currently allocated be used to try to stem actual cases of gun violence as opposed to those that may happen?
 
2122M
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:37 pm

extender wrote:
It is hard to enforce any law, when there are issues with funding for law enforcement. Many of you are saying laws need to be enforced. Who enforces the law? The government. When the government has limited resources, they will cherry pick cases to be cost effective.

There's that loophole again. How do you plan on addressing the loophole? Isn't stopping violence a more immediate problem. Shouldn't the resources currently allocated be used to try to stem actual cases of gun violence as opposed to those that may happen?


I would argue that it is far more cost effective to have preventative policies in place than it is to spend money chasing criminals.
 
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seb146
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:36 pm

Does this also include tax breaks given to corporations? There is a lot of vague wording in the article. So many questions, I don't know where to begin. Let's also remember that rural Illinois leans more Republican. So, blaming Illinois' problems on JUST one city is like blaming throat cancer ONLY on an ingrown toenail.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:46 pm

extender wrote:
Who enforces the law?

The people.

So you are wrong and continue to misunderstand that "law" and "law enforcement" are cooperative efforts. The law is enforced by you and me and every other citizen everyday as we all go about our days and make sure people are doing what they are supposed to be doing. We make calls to our elected representatives or call the police or go to the person/people directly to make sure the law is followed.

Do you follow the law? Are you a law abiding citizen? A society will fail if we aren't. If everyone disobeys the laws then you have either anarchy or you will end up with a dictatorship or something equivalent for the governing situation. We all cooperate to support and enforce the laws we together as a people, as a constitutional society, have legislated and passed.

That is why laws work, that is why new gun laws etc. can work, IF they have the support of the people. Law enforcement resources cannot be everywhere at once and so must be focused where they are needed. And it is not uncommon for new laws to come into effect and a whole bunch of people fail to follow them but then over time as we all learn of them, sometimes by getting caught up by them, we follow and work with agencies etc, when asked, to make sure things work right.

And that is also why we always need to be able to address any flaws in the law and tweak them or maybe even repeal them, so that we end up with enforceable and observed laws.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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extender
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:54 am

Tugger wrote:
... The law is enforced by you and me and every other citizen everyday as we all go about our days and make sure people are doing what they are supposed to be doing.


So we're all sworn law enforcement officers now? We can go arresting people who break the law? Don't we have to know all the statutes before we can go policing up the bad apples?


Tugger wrote:
We make calls to our elected representatives or call the police or go to the person/people directly to make sure the law is followed.


Two different things; elected officials write the laws, police, enforce the law.

Tugger wrote:
That is why laws work, that is why new gun laws etc. can work, IF they have the support of the people.


The law is the law. If you don't agree with it, you must still follow it, right? What about unjust laws?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:18 pm

extender wrote:
Tugger wrote:
... The law is enforced by you and me and every other citizen everyday as we all go about our days and make sure people are doing what they are supposed to be doing.


So we're all sworn law enforcement officers now? We can go arresting people who break the law? Don't we have to know all the statutes before we can go policing up the bad apples?


Tugger wrote:
We make calls to our elected representatives or call the police or go to the person/people directly to make sure the law is followed.


Two different things; elected officials write the laws, police, enforce the law.

Tugger wrote:
That is why laws work, that is why new gun laws etc. can work, IF they have the support of the people.


The law is the law. If you don't agree with it, you must still follow it, right? What about unjust laws?


You have never heard of citizen's arrest? Are you from the US or Russia?

As for the police, they work for the city, county, state , and as such are answerable to the legislature and people for their funding. The legislature is tasked with making laws and changing them. The judiciary decides whether they are legal, and the executive branch enforces them.

The law is the law, but you can work to change unjust laws. Anyone what is a true American Citizen understands that Government only works when you take part in it. Not when you sit and blame it for all your own personal issues.
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extender
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:33 pm

casinterest wrote:
You have never heard of citizen's arrest? Are you from the US or Russia?


Yes, I have. What are the limitations of a citizen's arrest? What amount of force are you allowed to use? Is deadly use of force authorized? What is your liability if you chose to exercise that avenue? What are your remedies if you get hurt? What legal repercussions can you face?

casinterest wrote:
As for the police, they work for the city, county, state , and as such are answerable to the legislature and people for their funding. The legislature is tasked with making laws and changing them. The judiciary decides whether they are legal, and the executive branch enforces them.


Yeah, I took civics, nothing new here.

casinterest wrote:
The law is the law, but you can work to change unjust laws. Anyone what is a true American Citizen understands that Government only works when you take part in it. Not when you sit and blame it for all your own personal issues.


Personal issues? Such as? Plenty of laws going around, some make sense, others don't. Have you ever asked yourself why it is OK to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, but you get a ticket if you don't wear your seatbelt?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:44 pm

extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
You have never heard of citizen's arrest? Are you from the US or Russia?


Yes, I have. What are the limitations of a citizen's arrest? What amount of force are you allowed to use? Is deadly use of force authorized? What is your liability if you chose to exercise that avenue? What are your remedies if you get hurt? What legal repercussions can you face?

casinterest wrote:
As for the police, they work for the city, county, state , and as such are answerable to the legislature and people for their funding. The legislature is tasked with making laws and changing them. The judiciary decides whether they are legal, and the executive branch enforces them.


Yeah, I took civics, nothing new here.

casinterest wrote:
The law is the law, but you can work to change unjust laws. Anyone what is a true American Citizen understands that Government only works when you take part in it. Not when you sit and blame it for all your own personal issues.


Personal issues? Such as? Plenty of laws going around, some make sense, others don't. Have you ever asked yourself why it is OK to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, but you get a ticket if you don't wear your seatbelt?


It seems to me that you have plenty of questions and yet no answers. It seems you have not taken part of the Government that is available to you.

Motorcycle Helmet laws exist for the safety of the rider. Seatbelt laws exist for the safety of the riders.

It seems to me that the states that choose not to have them are just looking for more Organ Donors.
https://www.mylegalneeds.com/faqs/has-f ... eaths-.cfm


In the three years before Florida changed its helmet laws, the state averaged about 160 deaths per year. After the law changed, deaths rose to 246. In 2006, a record high 550 deaths were recorded.
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slider
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:47 pm

Tugger wrote:
extender wrote:
Who enforces the law?


That is why laws work, that is why new gun laws etc. can work, IF they have the support of the people.


Tugg,
On a fundamental level, I agree broadly with what you wrote--we are, after all, a nation of laws. They need to be enforced.

In places like Chicago, more laws won't solve gun crime and murder. These are societal issues moreso than legal ones. Shootings are daily and committed by people who have no respect for the law; ergo, more laws, and even the enforcement of said existing laws, won't make the problem go away.

More gun laws only make it that much harder for law abiding people to protect themselves. Why is this so hard to figure out? Guns SAVE FAR more lives than they take. And if you exclude the shithole cities that drive most of the murders in America, gun crime is actually very minimal in the USA. This is the big lie that the media never talks about, that polarizes the voters, and draws out far too many kneejerk reactions, especially from the left.

Address societal issues, address fatherlessness, address mental health, address the over-prescribing of SSRI drugs, eliminate gun free zones (where the majority of mass shootings occur). Then we can start about "gun laws"...
 
2122M
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:47 pm

extender wrote:
Personal issues? Such as? Plenty of laws going around, some make sense, others don't. Have you ever asked yourself why it is OK to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, but you get a ticket if you don't wear your seatbelt?


In many states, its not legal to ride without a helmet.

Now, back to your main thesis:

If a problem exists, but you are against new laws, how should that problem be addressed?

Lets use your seatbelt law for example. in the 1950s and 60s, cars became more powerful, heavier and faster. Not to mention sales started to spike, so there were more cars on the road than ever before. This highlighted the new and growing problem of car accident injuries and fatalities.

So, in the world of extender, what should have happened. Let the free market sort it out? Car manufacturers aren't going to voluntarily add cost to their products and make them less competitive. So the government should just sit back and watch the body count rise?

Instead, they passed the motor vehicle safety standard in 1968 and the fatality rate began a steady drop from 5.5 fatalities per 100 million vehicle miles traveled in 1966 to 3.25 in 1976.

Under the leadership of President Extender, people just continue to die from auto accidents because new laws are bad, right?
 
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:50 pm

slider wrote:
Address societal issues, address fatherlessness, address mental health,


I'd love to hear your take on this. Specifically, how does the US government address fatherlessness? Is there a lot of evidence that mass shootings are typically committed by those without a father anyway?

Specifically what societal issues do you think need to be addressed an how?
 
extender
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:01 pm

2122M wrote:
I'd love to hear your take on this. Specifically, how does the US government address fatherlessness?


It created the trend. Go back and look at Johnson's War on Poverty.

Welfare thereby reduces the financial need for marriage. Since the beginning of the War on Poverty, less-educated mothers have increasingly become married to the welfare state and to the U.S. taxpayer rather than to the fathers of their children.
 
2122M
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:06 pm

extender wrote:
2122M wrote:
I'd love to hear your take on this. Specifically, how does the US government address fatherlessness?


It created the trend. Go back and look at Johnson's War on Poverty.

Welfare thereby reduces the financial need for marriage. Since the beginning of the War on Poverty, less-educated mothers have increasingly become married to the welfare state and to the U.S. taxpayer rather than to the fathers of their children.


So you would prefer unhappy and potentially abusive marriages to welfare? I mean, there is likely a reason the father is no longer in the picture in most cases.

"welfare reduces the financial need for marriage" - Just reading that one again. What exactly is marriage all about to you? You are really asking women to be reliant on a man for financial stability instead of having another option.

And you think this will reduce mass shootings?

Truly one of the more bizarre, backwards, and ignorant statements I've seen on these boards.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:12 pm

slider wrote:
Tugger wrote:
extender wrote:
Who enforces the law?


That is why laws work, that is why new gun laws etc. can work, IF they have the support of the people.


Tugg,
On a fundamental level, I agree broadly with what you wrote--we are, after all, a nation of laws. They need to be enforced.

In places like Chicago, more laws won't solve gun crime and murder. These are societal issues moreso than legal ones. Shootings are daily and committed by people who have no respect for the law; ergo, more laws, and even the enforcement of said existing laws, won't make the problem go away.

More gun laws only make it that much harder for law abiding people to protect themselves. Why is this so hard to figure out? Guns SAVE FAR more lives than they take. And if you exclude the shithole cities that drive most of the murders in America, gun crime is actually very minimal in the USA. This is the big lie that the media never talks about, that polarizes the voters, and draws out far too many kneejerk reactions, especially from the left.

Address societal issues, address fatherlessness, address mental health, address the over-prescribing of SSRI drugs, eliminate gun free zones (where the majority of mass shootings occur). Then we can start about "gun laws"...


More refined gun laws are needed. Personal protection does not require a rapid fire modified semi automatic.

Chicago's issues go to enforcement. Not the laws, and the citizens there need to take a more active role.

Also , you know why Trump hasn't tweeted about Chicago lately, and why it would be a bad idea?

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/bre ... story.html

The trend is back down since 2016.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
extender
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:46 pm

casinterest wrote:
More refined gun laws are needed. Personal protection does not require a rapid fire modified semi automatic.


What exactly is that? A rapid-fire semiautomatic? A semiauto goes as full as you can manipulate the trigger.
 
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:54 pm

'Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws'

Placing 'faith' into a system invented by flawed human guarantees failure for many, but we gotta start somewhere....

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:10 pm

extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
More refined gun laws are needed. Personal protection does not require a rapid fire modified semi automatic.


What exactly is that? A rapid-fire semiautomatic? A semiauto goes as full as you can manipulate the trigger.


Exactly. and how many rounds are required for so called self defense?
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extender
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:16 pm

casinterest wrote:
Exactly. and how many rounds are required for so called self defense?


As many as you need to defend yourself.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:28 pm

extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Exactly. and how many rounds are required for so called self defense?


As many as you need to defend yourself.


How silly - to quote a relative who is a proud defender of ‘shall not infringe’ - if you’re any good on the range, you won’t ever need more than four or five.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
extender
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:30 pm

That's how it works, have enough to defend yourself. Anyone who says you won't ever need more than four or five is an absolute idiot.
Last edited by extender on Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:36 pm

extender wrote:
That's how it works, have enough to defend yourself. Anyone who says you won't ever need more than fore or five is an absolute idiot.

if you need that much, then you might be more of a danger to others than a defender of yourself.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
extender
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:39 pm

casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
That's how it works, have enough to defend yourself. Anyone who says you won't ever need more than fore or five is an absolute idiot.

if you need that much, then you might be more of a danger to others than a defender of yourself.


That is such an asinine statement.

You've been watching too many movies. And that is what annoys many people trying to have a conversation on this topic. Your perceived knowledge comes from watching too many TV shows and movies. Do you think one shot stops an attacker?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:45 pm

extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
That's how it works, have enough to defend yourself. Anyone who says you won't ever need more than fore or five is an absolute idiot.

if you need that much, then you might be more of a danger to others than a defender of yourself.


That is such an asinine statement.

You've been watching too many movies. And that is what annoys many people trying to have a conversation on this topic. Your perceived knowledge comes from watching too many TV shows and movies. Do you think one shot stops an attacker?

Where did I say one shot? you are such a misleading debater.

Oh sure, cause you can actually defend yourself with multiple magazines from a home invasion, cause that happens all the time right?

Bull crap. you know what happens all the time? Dishonorable people buy way too much ammo and modify guns to kill innocent kids and people just going about their day.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N1611B
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:45 pm

casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
That's how it works, have enough to defend yourself. Anyone who says you won't ever need more than fore or five is an absolute idiot.

if you need that much, then you might be more of a danger to others than a defender of yourself.


Yup, that's why soldiers and police officers only carry five rounds at a time.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:47 pm

N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
That's how it works, have enough to defend yourself. Anyone who says you won't ever need more than fore or five is an absolute idiot.

if you need that much, then you might be more of a danger to others than a defender of yourself.


Yup, that's why soldiers and police officers only carry five rounds at a time.


And that means what? They are the government with accountability. not private incompetent shooters.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N1611B
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:48 pm

casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:
if you need that much, then you might be more of a danger to others than a defender of yourself.

Yup, that's why soldiers and police officers only carry five rounds at a time.
And that means what? They are the government with accountability. not private incompetent shooters.


That means that if even highly trained personnel often need more than five rounds to defend themselves, it is not unreasonable for your average citizen to also need more than five rounds to defend themselves.
 
extender
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:51 pm

casinterest wrote:
Where did I say one shot? you are such a misleading debater.


anything more than four or five... Ring a bell?

casinterest wrote:
Oh sure, cause you can actually defend yourself with multiple magazines from a home invasion, cause that happens all the time right?


You want to paint every event with the same broad stroke. But you're making a good argument for thirty round magazines.

casinterest wrote:
Bull crap. you know what happens all the time? Dishonorable people buy way too much ammo and modify guns to kill innocent kids and people just going about their day.


What business is it of yours how much ammunition people have? How do you know they are dishonorable? You can't debate period.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:52 pm

N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:


That means that if even highly trained personnel often need more than five rounds to defend themselves, it is not unreasonable for your average citizen to also need more than five rounds to defend themselves.


They are trained to go after dangerous people. Not run and hide first and call for assistance. The average citizen can defend themselves with 5 shots untless the criminals really want them dead. In which case thanks to large magazines, they will probably come with more bullets than the average ammo head can handle.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:53 pm

extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Where did I say one shot? you are such a misleading debater.


anything more than four or five... Ring a bell?

casinterest wrote:
Oh sure, cause you can actually defend yourself with multiple magazines from a home invasion, cause that happens all the time right?


You want to paint every event with the same broad stroke. But you're making a good argument for thirty round magazines.

casinterest wrote:
Bull crap. you know what happens all the time? Dishonorable people buy way too much ammo and modify guns to kill innocent kids and people just going about their day.


What business is it of yours how much ammunition people have? How do you know they are dishonorable? You can't debate period.


Anyone that feels they need that much ammunition, isn't a very honorable person. They are paranoid, and a danger to others. End of story.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N1611B
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:54 pm

casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:


That means that if even highly trained personnel often need more than five rounds to defend themselves, it is not unreasonable for your average citizen to also need more than five rounds to defend themselves.


They are trained to go after dangerous people. Not run and hide first and call for assistance. The average citizen can defend themselves with 5 shots untless the criminals really want them dead. In which case thanks to large magazines, they will probably come with more bullets than the average ammo head can handle.


You have nothing to back up your claim that the average citizen can defend themselves with 5 shots. Also, the "calling for assistance" bit is irrelevant. When seconds count, the police are minutes away, and you're going to need more than 5 rounds to protect yourself, unless you are John Wick, and then a simple pencil will suffice.
 
N1611B
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:55 pm

casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Where did I say one shot? you are such a misleading debater.


anything more than four or five... Ring a bell?

casinterest wrote:
Oh sure, cause you can actually defend yourself with multiple magazines from a home invasion, cause that happens all the time right?


You want to paint every event with the same broad stroke. But you're making a good argument for thirty round magazines.

casinterest wrote:
Bull crap. you know what happens all the time? Dishonorable people buy way too much ammo and modify guns to kill innocent kids and people just going about their day.


What business is it of yours how much ammunition people have? How do you know they are dishonorable? You can't debate period.
Anyone that feels they need that much ammunition, isn't a very honorable person. They are paranoid, and a danger to others. End of story.


So every single soldier and police officer is paranoid in your mind? Interesting.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:56 pm

N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:

That means that if even highly trained personnel often need more than five rounds to defend themselves, it is not unreasonable for your average citizen to also need more than five rounds to defend themselves.


They are trained to go after dangerous people. Not run and hide first and call for assistance. The average citizen can defend themselves with 5 shots untless the criminals really want them dead. In which case thanks to large magazines, they will probably come with more bullets than the average ammo head can handle.


You have nothing to back up your claim that the average citizen can defend themselves with 5 shots. Also, the "calling for assistance" bit is irrelevant. When seconds count, the police are minutes away, and you're going to need more than 5 rounds to protect yourself, unless you are John Wick, and then a simple pencil will suffice.


You have nothing to back up your claim that more than 5 shots are needed unless you are a drug runner.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:57 pm

N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:
extender wrote:

anything more than four or five... Ring a bell?



You want to paint every event with the same broad stroke. But you're making a good argument for thirty round magazines.



What business is it of yours how much ammunition people have? How do you know they are dishonorable? You can't debate period.
Anyone that feels they need that much ammunition, isn't a very honorable person. They are paranoid, and a danger to others. End of story.


So every single soldier and police officer is paranoid in your mind? Interesting.

No, it is their job, and Soldiers don't keep the ammo on them when they go home.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N1611B
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:58 pm

casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:

They are trained to go after dangerous people. Not run and hide first and call for assistance. The average citizen can defend themselves with 5 shots untless the criminals really want them dead. In which case thanks to large magazines, they will probably come with more bullets than the average ammo head can handle.


You have nothing to back up your claim that the average citizen can defend themselves with 5 shots. Also, the "calling for assistance" bit is irrelevant. When seconds count, the police are minutes away, and you're going to need more than 5 rounds to protect yourself, unless you are John Wick, and then a simple pencil will suffice.


You have nothing to back up your claim that more than 5 shots are needed unless you are a drug runner.


Experience and common sense. I work in emergency services. I've seen people still walking around and functional with 8 bullet holes in them. Your argument assumes that 1) every single person is an expert marksman under duress and will never miss 2) Every single assailant will go down with one or at the most two shots 3) Home invaders never work in pairs. All three assumptions are laughable.
 
N1611B
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:59 pm

casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:


So every single soldier and police officer is paranoid in your mind? Interesting.

No, it is their job, and Soldiers don't keep the ammo on them when they go home.


Right, it is their job. And if they are good at their job, they shouldn't need more than one bullet, right? Perhaps all of our soldiers and police officers should be equipped with single-shot muskets? After all, what kind of paranoid person thinks that it might take more than a single shot to take out a bad guy?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:01 pm

N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:

You have nothing to back up your claim that the average citizen can defend themselves with 5 shots. Also, the "calling for assistance" bit is irrelevant. When seconds count, the police are minutes away, and you're going to need more than 5 rounds to protect yourself, unless you are John Wick, and then a simple pencil will suffice.


You have nothing to back up your claim that more than 5 shots are needed unless you are a drug runner.


Experience and common sense. I work in emergency services. I've seen people still walking around and functional with 8 bullet holes in them. Your argument assumes that 1) every single person is an expert marksman under duress and will never miss 2) Every single assailant will go down with one or at the most two shots 3) Home invaders never work in pairs. All three assumptions are laughable.


i assume people in danger would call for help, I also assume that people with 8 holes in them , have 8 holes because someone that was a faiirly good shot was allowed to have way too much ammo, and wanted that person dead. So Other than your observations, the only consistency is that too much ammunition leads to more damage,
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:02 pm

N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:

So every single soldier and police officer is paranoid in your mind? Interesting.

No, it is their job, and Soldiers don't keep the ammo on them when they go home.


Right, it is their job. And if they are good at their job, they shouldn't need more than one bullet, right? Perhaps all of our soldiers and police officers should be equipped with single-shot muskets? After all, what kind of paranoid person thinks that it might take more than a single shot to take out a bad guy?


I never said one bullet., Why are ammo heads always fixated on one bullet? You don't delineate do you? All or none right?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N1611B
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:04 pm

casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:

You have nothing to back up your claim that more than 5 shots are needed unless you are a drug runner.


Experience and common sense. I work in emergency services. I've seen people still walking around and functional with 8 bullet holes in them. Your argument assumes that 1) every single person is an expert marksman under duress and will never miss 2) Every single assailant will go down with one or at the most two shots 3) Home invaders never work in pairs. All three assumptions are laughable.


i assume people in danger would call for help, I also assume that people with 8 holes in them , have 8 holes because someone that was a faiirly good shot was allowed to have way too much ammo, and wanted that person dead. So Other than your observations, the only consistency is that too much ammunition leads to more damage,


People in danger do call for help. And that help can take anywhere from 5 to 45 minutes to get to them. Your other statement doesn't make much sense. Real life isn't like the movies....the stay at home mom who is having her home broken into isn't going to be able to dive across the floor and nail a headshot against a moving assailant 15 feet away. And the person who is shot in the chest or the belly or the arm isn't going to conveniently and immediately die after being hit one time. Thankfully, our very real rights give us the right to own as much ammunition as we please.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:06 pm

casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:
No, it is their job, and Soldiers don't keep the ammo on them when they go home.


Right, it is their job. And if they are good at their job, they shouldn't need more than one bullet, right? Perhaps all of our soldiers and police officers should be equipped with single-shot muskets? After all, what kind of paranoid person thinks that it might take more than a single shot to take out a bad guy?


I never said one bullet., Why are ammo heads always fixated on one bullet? You don't delineate do you? All or none right?


You're right. Our soldiers and police officers likely don't need any bullets at all. They are supposed to be professionals, right? All they need are throwing knives. That way, if they get shot at, then can throw their knives at the bullets and knock them out of the air before they can hit their target.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:13 pm

N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:

Right, it is their job. And if they are good at their job, they shouldn't need more than one bullet, right? Perhaps all of our soldiers and police officers should be equipped with single-shot muskets? After all, what kind of paranoid person thinks that it might take more than a single shot to take out a bad guy?


I never said one bullet., Why are ammo heads always fixated on one bullet? You don't delineate do you? All or none right?


You're right. Our soldiers and police officers likely don't need any bullets at all. They are supposed to be professionals, right? All they need are throwing knives. That way, if they get shot at, then can throw their knives at the bullets and knock them out of the air before they can hit their target.


Ok you convinced me. You are still in kindergarten right? Back to potty training.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
extender
Topic Author
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:13 pm

This is why the debate goes to crap. People with the common sense of a gnat, pontificate and tell you all you need, even though they have no knowledge of the subject matter.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 9259
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:14 pm

N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:

Experience and common sense. I work in emergency services. I've seen people still walking around and functional with 8 bullet holes in them. Your argument assumes that 1) every single person is an expert marksman under duress and will never miss 2) Every single assailant will go down with one or at the most two shots 3) Home invaders never work in pairs. All three assumptions are laughable.


i assume people in danger would call for help, I also assume that people with 8 holes in them , have 8 holes because someone that was a faiirly good shot was allowed to have way too much ammo, and wanted that person dead. So Other than your observations, the only consistency is that too much ammunition leads to more damage,


People in danger do call for help. And that help can take anywhere from 5 to 45 minutes to get to them. Your other statement doesn't make much sense. Real life isn't like the movies....the stay at home mom who is having her home broken into isn't going to be able to dive across the floor and nail a headshot against a moving assailant 15 feet away. And the person who is shot in the chest or the belly or the arm isn't going to conveniently and immediately die after being hit one time. Thankfully, our very real rights give us the right to own as much ammunition as we please.


Show me the statistics of home gun round assault by unknown assailants vs innocent deaths by mass murders.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:23 am

Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:29 pm

casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:

I never said one bullet., Why are ammo heads always fixated on one bullet? You don't delineate do you? All or none right?


You're right. Our soldiers and police officers likely don't need any bullets at all. They are supposed to be professionals, right? All they need are throwing knives. That way, if they get shot at, then can throw their knives at the bullets and knock them out of the air before they can hit their target.


Ok you convinced me. You are still in kindergarten right? Back to potty training.


Says the person who believes that every layperson is an expert marksman and that every single gunshot victim dies immediately after being shot one time.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:30 pm

extender wrote:
Tugger wrote:
... The law is enforced by you and me and every other citizen everyday as we all go about our days and make sure people are doing what they are supposed to be doing.


So we're all sworn law enforcement officers now? We can go arresting people who break the law? Don't we have to know all the statutes before we can go policing up the bad apples?

If you do not understand that you enforce laws then I do not know how you function in the USA or even claim to be a citizen. That sounds like being a lazy citizen. One that takes no pride or ownership in our nation. I am guessing you are a natural-born citizen and so had to do nothing to be a citizen and so that has flowed into your vision of what being a citizen is. That you get to do nothing.

How lame is that.

Have you ever seen the citizenship oath?
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.[12]

Ever thought that you are also beholden to something very similar with the granting of this incredibly valuable thing called US citizenship? Or are you one that inherits a house and then does nothing to keep it up?

Yes, as a citizen we defend and uphold the laws of the United States. All citizens do. The idea that you would sit on your butt and watch laws be broken and do nothing is the worst, the most maligning thing you can do for our nation. That you would know of laws being broken and do nothing makes you worse almost than the criminal because you allow it to happen.

Stand up, do something, be a engaged member of this country. Work. Put effort into it.

extender wrote:
Tugger wrote:
We make calls to our elected representatives or call the police or go to the person/people directly to make sure the law is followed.


Two different things; elected officials write the laws, police, enforce the law.

Really? They are? Gosh I never knew! Wow... talk about actively trying to avoid having to do something, even comprehending a comment.

So you are saying you have never heard of calling your local representative about a problem, about a law being broken or a bad situation in your neighborhood so they can help get the proper assistance to address the situation? Is that what you are saying?


extender wrote:
Tugger wrote:
That is why laws work, that is why new gun laws etc. can work, IF they have the support of the people.


The law is the law. If you don't agree with it, you must still follow it, right? What about unjust laws?

Yes, you still follow the law. That is how this works. You live in a society and community where your opinion and ideas on something alone don't supersede everyone else's. We get together and vote and majority rules apply with consideration to protect certain things from rights to groups to places etc. And if it is unjust then you work to address that. Whether through the courts or with others of similar mind to convince the majority that a change is needed.

And why do you ask? Do you do something different?

slider wrote:
Tugger wrote:
extender wrote:
Who enforces the law?


That is why laws work, that is why new gun laws etc. can work, IF they have the support of the people.


Tugg,
On a fundamental level, I agree broadly with what you wrote--we are, after all, a nation of laws. They need to be enforced.

In places like Chicago, more laws won't solve gun crime and murder. These are societal issues moreso than legal ones. Shootings are daily and committed by people who have no respect for the law; ergo, more laws, and even the enforcement of said existing laws, won't make the problem go away.

More gun laws only make it that much harder for law abiding people to protect themselves. Why is this so hard to figure out? Guns SAVE FAR more lives than they take. And if you exclude the shithole cities that drive most of the murders in America, gun crime is actually very minimal in the USA. This is the big lie that the media never talks about, that polarizes the voters, and draws out far too many kneejerk reactions, especially from the left.

Address societal issues, address fatherlessness, address mental health, address the over-prescribing of SSRI drugs, eliminate gun free zones (where the majority of mass shootings occur). Then we can start about "gun laws"...

Thanks Slider for the thought out reply. And while I too agree broadly with what you are saying, the idea to "wait until everything else is fixed" is not sound. It's akin have a leak in your house and refusing to focus on the one part until everything else that relates to it is addressed. Even in Texas now, Dan Patrick, the Conservative's Conservative, is seeking a new law to require background checks on all gun sales. That is a simple targeted law and there is not a need to fix everything else before implementing such a law.

I fully agree that "more laws" isn't the solution to all ills and Chicago is a terrible mess. Due a combination of a lawless culture in the city regions where the problems are, to city governance that fails constantly at achieving what a government is supposed to do (which number one is keep citizens safe and another is have the peoples trust. Chicago does neither).

I have several suggestions and thoughts on what I think is is needed regarding firearms but that is among the most difficult topics. I'm always happy to share in a discussion though.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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seb146
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:30 pm

extender wrote:
This is why the debate goes to crap. People with the common sense of a gnat, pontificate and tell you all you need, even though they have no knowledge of the subject matter.


To be fair, the original post had two completely different topics V-E-R-Y loosely tied together....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
N1611B
Posts: 170
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Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:31 pm

casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:

i assume people in danger would call for help, I also assume that people with 8 holes in them , have 8 holes because someone that was a faiirly good shot was allowed to have way too much ammo, and wanted that person dead. So Other than your observations, the only consistency is that too much ammunition leads to more damage,


People in danger do call for help. And that help can take anywhere from 5 to 45 minutes to get to them. Your other statement doesn't make much sense. Real life isn't like the movies....the stay at home mom who is having her home broken into isn't going to be able to dive across the floor and nail a headshot against a moving assailant 15 feet away. And the person who is shot in the chest or the belly or the arm isn't going to conveniently and immediately die after being hit one time. Thankfully, our very real rights give us the right to own as much ammunition as we please.


Show me the statistics of home gun round assault by unknown assailants vs innocent deaths by mass murders.


In a typical year more than 260,000 Americans become the victim of a violent crime during a home invasion.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt
 
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seb146
Posts: 20692
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Put Your Faith in Government, More Laws

Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:35 pm

N1611B wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N1611B wrote:

People in danger do call for help. And that help can take anywhere from 5 to 45 minutes to get to them. Your other statement doesn't make much sense. Real life isn't like the movies....the stay at home mom who is having her home broken into isn't going to be able to dive across the floor and nail a headshot against a moving assailant 15 feet away. And the person who is shot in the chest or the belly or the arm isn't going to conveniently and immediately die after being hit one time. Thankfully, our very real rights give us the right to own as much ammunition as we please.


Show me the statistics of home gun round assault by unknown assailants vs innocent deaths by mass murders.


In a typical year more than 260,000 Americans become the victim of a violent crime during a home invasion.

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/vdhb.txt


It is also interesting to note that some of those home invasions were by people known to the victims in some way. Maybe a friend, maybe a family member, maybe "s/he works in our yard every week".
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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