BN747
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Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:06 am

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/arc ... re/597850/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2-18b

A Super Earth, K2-18b, found 4 years ago orbiting it's Red Dwarf sun (a year -- 33 days) in the constellation Leo is the 1st non-gaseous (rocky planet) were water vapors are confirmed in it's atmosphere and it resides within the habitable zone of it's parent star (moderate temperatures)

K2-18b is twice Earth's size, 8x Earth's mass.

Sure, many questions remain however regarding the exact elements within the atmosphere and liquid oceans such as degrees of methane and other gases.

K2-18b is 124ly (light years) away from Earth. Pretty far but pretty close in galactic terms - the Milky Way being 110-120K ly across.
Not a place we will ever reach in this century nor the next.

But as the data continues to pour in, it points toward the certainty that Earth like worlds.. solid surface (if proven) water vapor atmosphere and a habitable zone orbit are more common place than previously believed.

Of course the numeric odds already lie in the favor 'definitely more Earth like worlds' exist...I mean, how many spherical planets can be created before the recipe of certain types repeat themselves.

If K2-18b does host any kind of life form...our 1st concern becomes 'who's more advanced, us or them?'

If it's proven they are..then we do what we always do, panic. If not, then Earth's religious proclaims Earth's uniqueness.

But it will be interesting as more results are sure to come in and give us a better picture of what's out there.

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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:31 am

Still amazes me what they can find out from such a distance. Detecting a planet is mind-boggling to me - sure I know how they do it, but still - and now what they can extract purely by analyzing light, the dimming of the parent star and wobbling. As far as I know, it still isn't possible to have a direct picture of an exoplanet, but things are moving fast, so perhaps it is possible.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
Still amazes me what they can find out from such a distance. Detecting a planet is mind-boggling to me - sure I know how they do it, but still - and now what they can extract purely by analyzing light, the dimming of the parent star and wobbling. As far as I know, it still isn't possible to have a direct picture of an exoplanet, but things are moving fast, so perhaps it is possible.

technically, its already done
Image

in general, about exoplanets,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxima_Centauri_b
will be much more interesting.
 
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:43 am

BN747 wrote:
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/09/water-vapor-explonet-atmosphere/597850/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K2-18b

K2-18b is twice Earth's size, 8x Earth's mass.


Assuming:
A. It does indeed have an Earth-like atmosphere
B. Anything we'd recognize as advanced life has evolved there
It would be interesting to see how the life forms there cope with 8x earth's gravity, both on land and in the oceans.
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:48 am

TSS wrote:
8x earth's gravity, both on land and in the oceans.

actually, 2x if planet density same as in Earth.
a bit more if density is higher (which must be for more heavy planet)
 
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:25 pm

BN747 wrote:
A Super Earth, K2-18b, found 4 years ago orbiting it's Red Dwarf sun (a year -- 33 days) in the constellation Leo is the 1st non-gaseous (rocky planet) were water vapors are confirmed in it's atmosphere and it resides within the habitable zone of it's parent star (moderate temperatures)

From the Wiki article, it seems the planet doesn't spend too much time inside the habitable zone so even if it did have water, looks like it would spend too much time closer to the star. The fct that it's also tidally locked means that even inside the habitable zone, life would not be able to develop properly since one side of the planet will always be dark and cold, even with an atmosphere that can sustain a greenhouse effect.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:41 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
BN747 wrote:
A Super Earth, K2-18b, found 4 years ago orbiting it's Red Dwarf sun (a year -- 33 days) in the constellation Leo is the 1st non-gaseous (rocky planet) were water vapors are confirmed in it's atmosphere and it resides within the habitable zone of it's parent star (moderate temperatures)

From the Wiki article, it seems the planet doesn't spend too much time inside the habitable zone so even if it did have water, looks like it would spend too much time closer to the star. The fct that it's also tidally locked means that even inside the habitable zone, life would not be able to develop properly since one side of the planet will always be dark and cold, even with an atmosphere that can sustain a greenhouse effect.


Well, true and not true...meaning we can't know the survival requirements of any lifeform under a Dwarf star for one thing nor can rule out 'favorable' conditions along the twilight longitudinal spanning the planet.

But more telling is this find points to similarities more common with Earth than Jupiter...meaning, it's 'a version' holding commonalities of an earth-like example. On the other hand there is even a Better Earth-like sphere out there in this galaxy...the numerical odds say so.

BN747
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:19 pm

There are life forms in the hot and acidic pools in Yellowstone Park. There are life forms around sulfuric vents at the bottom of our oceans. Life forms do not have to look like us and be carbon based and process a very specific oxygen/nitrogen blend. We know that life evolves and adapts. There is a very distinct possibility there are life forms on this exoplanet that are thriving.

I think it is crazy cool to see what is living at the bottom of the oceans and I think it would be crazy cool to see what is living on this exoplanet.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:08 pm

seb146 wrote:
There are life forms in the hot and acidic pools in Yellowstone Park. There are life forms around sulfuric vents at the bottom of our oceans. Life forms do not have to look like us and be carbon based and process a very specific oxygen/nitrogen blend. We know that life evolves and adapts. There is a very distinct possibility there are life forms on this exoplanet that are thriving.

I think it is crazy cool to see what is living at the bottom of the oceans and I think it would be crazy cool to see what is living on this exoplanet.


Those lifeforms at Yellowstone, I believe are arsenic based...which says yeah, anything is on the table.

Just like we find practically zero populated areas in the middle of the Gobi, the Sahara and the Atacama shows not every place on a 'perfect sphere' is hospitable to life as we know it.
And just it..'as we know or define it' ...the universe is decider as who where life can thrive, not humans.


BN747
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trpmb6
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:58 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
BN747 wrote:
A Super Earth, K2-18b, found 4 years ago orbiting it's Red Dwarf sun (a year -- 33 days) in the constellation Leo is the 1st non-gaseous (rocky planet) were water vapors are confirmed in it's atmosphere and it resides within the habitable zone of it's parent star (moderate temperatures)

From the Wiki article, it seems the planet doesn't spend too much time inside the habitable zone so even if it did have water, looks like it would spend too much time closer to the star. The fct that it's also tidally locked means that even inside the habitable zone, life would not be able to develop properly since one side of the planet will always be dark and cold, even with an atmosphere that can sustain a greenhouse effect.


Actually, being tidally locked may not totally preclude the planet from having a habitable ring zone around the "twilight" region of the planet. The region of the planet that would be in perpetual sunrise/sunset. I don't remember which science channel show it was (maybe how the universe works?) but it was one of the ones narrated by Mike Rowe. In it they talked about what forms habitable planets may take - one of which was a tidally locked planet around a red dwarf. Suffice to say, the renderings they showed were pretty cool, hypothetical, but cool.

Looking at our own solar system, it seems logical that most planets spin. But I'm not so sure that is what is most common. It's just as likely that planets are tidally locked more often than not. Moons are really important in that regard.

Anyways, I think the main point to be made is there are way more earth like planets out there than anyone previously thought possible. That's exciting.
 
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:25 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
BN747 wrote:
A Super Earth, K2-18b, found 4 years ago orbiting it's Red Dwarf sun (a year -- 33 days) in the constellation Leo is the 1st non-gaseous (rocky planet) were water vapors are confirmed in it's atmosphere and it resides within the habitable zone of it's parent star (moderate temperatures)

From the Wiki article, it seems the planet doesn't spend too much time inside the habitable zone so even if it did have water, looks like it would spend too much time closer to the star. The fct that it's also tidally locked means that even inside the habitable zone, life would not be able to develop properly since one side of the planet will always be dark and cold, even with an atmosphere that can sustain a greenhouse effect.


Actually, being tidally locked may not totally preclude the planet from having a habitable ring zone around the "twilight" region of the planet. The region of the planet that would be in perpetual sunrise/sunset. I don't remember which science channel show it was (maybe how the universe works?) but it was one of the ones narrated by Mike Rowe. In it they talked about what forms habitable planets may take - one of which was a tidally locked planet around a red dwarf. Suffice to say, the renderings they showed were pretty cool, hypothetical, but cool.

Looking at our own solar system, it seems logical that most planets spin. But I'm not so sure that is what is most common. It's just as likely that planets are tidally locked more often than not. Moons are really important in that regard.

Anyways, I think the main point to be made is there are way more earth like planets out there than anyone previously thought possible. That's exciting.

It seems that most of the Earth-like worlds discovered so far are orbiting close to their host stars and are presumed to be tidally locked. We've yet to discover a true "Earth 2.0" but that doesn't mean there aren't multitudes of them out there. We've only looked at a few thousand stars out of billions in our galaxy alone. To think there isn't another world (or many) like ours is unfathomable in my opinion. The trick is that the distance involved even to the closest ones will make it difficult at best to positively confirm that life exists on any of them. I think we may discover primitive life on one of the icy moons of Jupiter or Saturn once probes capable of sampling the sub-surface oceans get there (in the next 25 years or so)
 
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:30 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
BN747 wrote:
A Super Earth, K2-18b, found 4 years ago orbiting it's Red Dwarf sun (a year -- 33 days) in the constellation Leo is the 1st non-gaseous (rocky planet) were water vapors are confirmed in it's atmosphere and it resides within the habitable zone of it's parent star (moderate temperatures)

From the Wiki article, it seems the planet doesn't spend too much time inside the habitable zone so even if it did have water, looks like it would spend too much time closer to the star. The fct that it's also tidally locked means that even inside the habitable zone, life would not be able to develop properly since one side of the planet will always be dark and cold, even with an atmosphere that can sustain a greenhouse effect.


Actually, being tidally locked may not totally preclude the planet from having a habitable ring zone around the "twilight" region of the planet. The region of the planet that would be in perpetual sunrise/sunset. I don't remember which science channel show it was (maybe how the universe works?) but it was one of the ones narrated by Mike Rowe. In it they talked about what forms habitable planets may take - one of which was a tidally locked planet around a red dwarf. Suffice to say, the renderings they showed were pretty cool, hypothetical, but cool.

Looking at our own solar system, it seems logical that most planets spin. But I'm not so sure that is what is most common. It's just as likely that planets are tidally locked more often than not. Moons are really important in that regard.

Anyways, I think the main point to be made is there are way more earth like planets out there than anyone previously thought possible. That's exciting.


Exactly! Very well stated.


ER757 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
From the Wiki article, it seems the planet doesn't spend too much time inside the habitable zone so even if it did have water, looks like it would spend too much time closer to the star. The fct that it's also tidally locked means that even inside the habitable zone, life would not be able to develop properly since one side of the planet will always be dark and cold, even with an atmosphere that can sustain a greenhouse effect.


Actually, being tidally locked may not totally preclude the planet from having a habitable ring zone around the "twilight" region of the planet. The region of the planet that would be in perpetual sunrise/sunset. I don't remember which science channel show it was (maybe how the universe works?) but it was one of the ones narrated by Mike Rowe. In it they talked about what forms habitable planets may take - one of which was a tidally locked planet around a red dwarf. Suffice to say, the renderings they showed were pretty cool, hypothetical, but cool.

Looking at our own solar system, it seems logical that most planets spin. But I'm not so sure that is what is most common. It's just as likely that planets are tidally locked more often than not. Moons are really important in that regard.

Anyways, I think the main point to be made is there are way more earth like planets out there than anyone previously thought possible. That's exciting.

It seems that most of the Earth-like worlds discovered so far are orbiting close to their host stars and are presumed to be tidally locked. We've yet to discover a true "Earth 2.0" but that doesn't mean there aren't multitudes of them out there. We've only looked at a few thousand stars out of billions in our galaxy alone. To think there isn't another world (or many) like ours is unfathomable in my opinion. The trick is that the distance involved even to the closest ones will make it difficult at best to positively confirm that life exists on any of them. I think we may discover primitive life on one of the icy moons of Jupiter or Saturn once probes capable of sampling the sub-surface oceans get there (in the next 25 years or so)


" To think there isn't another world (or many) like ours is unfathomable in my opinion. The trick is that the distance involved even to the closest ones will make it difficult at best to positively confirm that life exists on any of them."

Exactly 'to think' is the operative phrasing.

Most people are not capable (and most do not care) to make themselves as informed as possible to grasp the magnitude of the galaxy (let alone our smaller solar system)...the universe? Forget it.

In a sci-fi film an amateur astronomer put it like this...

The crude draft below represents 1 AU (astronomical unit or the 93 million miles distance of Sun to Earth.
Sun-> O--------93 mil mi------- º<-earth

Using that scale, from where ever you are currently sitting, how far would you have to travel to simulate our Sun's closest neighboring star, Alpha Centauri?
Answer, using the above scale...4 miles from where ever you are.

Now that's two close stars.

So...
/b] O--------93 mil mi------- º<-earth --------FOUR real miles------> Alpha Centari.

Now the Milky Way galaxy.

Using our scale above, you must walk/drive/fly from where you are now completely around the Earth until you return to your starting point....Once.
Twice...
Thrice...
Four times in actual distance, 100, 000 Real miles applying the scale above.

...that's the Milky Way. A relatively average size galaxy, our nearest neighbor Galaxy, Andromeda is twice the Milky Way's size.

That's vastness. That is trillions x trillions of worlds. But some people believe out gnat-turd size knowledge knows who and what made all of this...

The notion that 'knowing just how foolish that concept is' ...in the face of all the available knowledge that we do possess is beyond ignorance.

Yeah, most people have no idea of just how insignificant we are on the cosmic scale.

I'm sure there's an ant on a ant hill somewhere crowing as loud as he can 'We are kings of the world! We built this hill!"...

...that's us/humans in the galactic shadows claiming we know all there is to know. 'the common non-curious folk that is'...many of us know better, we know we are out of our league among the cosmos.


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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:42 pm

seb146 wrote:
There are life forms in the hot and acidic pools in Yellowstone Park. There are life forms around sulfuric vents at the bottom of our oceans. Life forms do not have to look like us and be carbon based and process a very specific oxygen/nitrogen blend. We know that life evolves and adapts. There is a very distinct possibility there are life forms on this exoplanet that are thriving.

I think it is crazy cool to see what is living at the bottom of the oceans and I think it would be crazy cool to see what is living on this exoplanet.


Hey Seb, take a look...

Bet you've never seen this little critter before, found right here in the deep...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fish-resembl ... 19608.html

BN747
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:02 am

ER757 wrote:
It seems that most of the Earth-like worlds discovered so far are orbiting close to their host stars and are presumed to be tidally locked.

That's mostly a consequence of our observation method being mainly orbital transit. Planets with wider orbit, and therefore not tidally locked, must have an orbital plane to match our line of sight much closer if we shall have a chance to observe them.

The other observation method, star wobble, will discover more planets, both spinning and tidally locked. But that method will never provide any chemical properties of the planet. Also it will mostly discover big planets, Jupiter+ size, and nothing as small as K2-18b.
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:52 am

BN747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
There are life forms in the hot and acidic pools in Yellowstone Park. There are life forms around sulfuric vents at the bottom of our oceans. Life forms do not have to look like us and be carbon based and process a very specific oxygen/nitrogen blend. We know that life evolves and adapts. There is a very distinct possibility there are life forms on this exoplanet that are thriving.

I think it is crazy cool to see what is living at the bottom of the oceans and I think it would be crazy cool to see what is living on this exoplanet.


Hey Seb, take a look...

Bet you've never seen this little critter before, found right here in the deep...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fish-resembl ... 19608.html

BN747


I read that this morning and was so excited. I love seeing things like this!
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:40 am

seb146 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
There are life forms in the hot and acidic pools in Yellowstone Park. There are life forms around sulfuric vents at the bottom of our oceans. Life forms do not have to look like us and be carbon based and process a very specific oxygen/nitrogen blend. We know that life evolves and adapts. There is a very distinct possibility there are life forms on this exoplanet that are thriving.

I think it is crazy cool to see what is living at the bottom of the oceans and I think it would be crazy cool to see what is living on this exoplanet.


Hey Seb, take a look...

Bet you've never seen this little critter before, found right here in the deep...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fish-resembl ... 19608.html

BN747


I read that this morning and was so excited. I love seeing things like this!


So you did catch that...what a weird looking creature, looks as it it would fit perfectly in kid's Nemo like flick.

I wonder if those gigantic eyes provide some sort of extraordinary vision or something....eyes the size of tour body...odd.

BN747
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:59 am

prebennorholm wrote:
ER757 wrote:
It seems that most of the Earth-like worlds discovered so far are orbiting close to their host stars and are presumed to be tidally locked.

That's mostly a consequence of our observation method being mainly orbital transit. Planets with wider orbit, and therefore not tidally locked, must have an orbital plane to match our line of sight much closer if we shall have a chance to observe them.

The other observation method, star wobble, will discover more planets, both spinning and tidally locked. But that method will never provide any chemical properties of the planet. Also it will mostly discover big planets, Jupiter+ size, and nothing as small as K2-18b.


plus of course you see the effect of the planet going around much more frequently if it goes around once per week instead of once per year or once every 50 years....

BN747 wrote:
Those lifeforms at Yellowstone, I believe are arsenic based...which says yeah, anything is on the table.


Nope. That was a missinterpretation of data and pretty quickly proven to be faulty.

Just like we find practically zero populated areas in the middle of the Gobi, the Sahara and the Atacama shows not every place on a 'perfect sphere' is hospitable to life as we know it.


We pretty much didn´t find any place on this planet that doesn´t harbor life, even when drilling miles deep. Life on earth is everywhere.

And just it..'as we know or define it' ...the universe is decider as who where life can thrive, not humans.


considering how fast life came to be on this rock and how inhospitable earth was at that time it stands to reason that at least fairly simple life would be found almost everywhere where we find liquid water.

seb146 wrote:
There are life forms in the hot and acidic pools in Yellowstone Park. There are life forms around sulfuric vents at the bottom of our oceans. Life forms do not have to look like us and be carbon based and process a very specific oxygen/nitrogen blend. .


fun fact: Life came about on this planet pretty much without free oxygen available to life. Bacteria needed to free Oxygen first, so much for life not being able to change the planet, wiping out pretty much all previous life in the process.....

BN747 wrote:
Well, true and not true...meaning we can't know the survival requirements of any lifeform under a Dwarf star for one thing nor can rule out 'favorable' conditions along the twilight longitudinal spanning the planet.


We do know that ionizing radiation will kill all life, no matter how adapted it is to radioactivity, as radiation starts deconstructing stuff on the atomic lever rather quickly if there is enough of it. Red Dwarfs, at least all we know, are flare stars and will ramp up radiation by orders of magnitude frequently. Tidally looked planets are also not expected to generate all that amazing a magnetic field, they rotate slow, and that creates an environment in which an atmosphere is hard to hold on to, even if you have plenty of gravity. ....

But, to quote a great movie: Life will find a way.
Id be rather surprised if we don´t find either hard indicators for life somewhere else, or traces or (former) life nearby within my lifetime. Red dwarfs are interessting because in approximation all stars are red dwarfs, and plenty of them are much older than our sun. More time to chemistry to become complex enough for evolution to kick in.

best regards
Thomas
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:27 am

BN747 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
BN747 wrote:

Hey Seb, take a look...

Bet you've never seen this little critter before, found right here in the deep...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/fish-resembl ... 19608.html

BN747


I read that this morning and was so excited. I love seeing things like this!


So you did catch that...what a weird looking creature, looks as it it would fit perfectly in kid's Nemo like flick.

I wonder if those gigantic eyes provide some sort of extraordinary vision or something....eyes the size of tour body...odd.

BN747


I think the eyes are that big because of the depth they live. They need bigger eyes to see better in the darkness and they are also adjusted for the pressure of that depth. That deep, bioluminescence comes out as well, so I would not be surprise there is some kind of self illumination on this creature, both for survival and protection.

I do not have many things to be a deep sea marine biologist but I love this stuff!
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:40 am

tommy1808 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Those lifeforms at Yellowstone, I believe are arsenic based...which says yeah, anything is on the table.


Nope. That was a missinterpretation of data and pretty quickly proven to be faulty.

Just like we find practically zero populated areas in the middle of the Gobi, the Sahara and the Atacama shows not every place on a 'perfect sphere' is hospitable to life as we know it.


We pretty much didn´t find any place on this planet that doesn´t harbor life, even when drilling miles deep. Life on earth is everywhere.

And just it..'as we know or define it' ...the universe is decider as who where life can thrive, not humans.


considering how fast life came to be on this rock and how inhospitable earth was at that time it stands to reason that at least fairly simple life would be found almost everywhere where we find liquid water.

best regards
Thomas


No qualms about the arsenic lifeforms in Yellowstone, but reference to desert dwellers was to stay why no large human settlements exist there (with access to rivers or oceans)...but of course there are creepy critters all over the place in what looks like simple mounds of sand. Yes, what is inhabitable force us...doesn't mean some other lifeform can't set up shop and live comfortably.

BN747
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:20 pm

In regards to the exoplanets that have been found being of "super earth" size or larger and typically close to their host stars: The main reason we currently see this is because of the techniques employed for discovering exoplanets. We're getting better and are beginning to expand the spectrum of planets we're able to observe. Put another way, with improvements to kepler, and better modeling by astronomers, we'll be able to better detect the small wobbles in stars we use to detect exoplanets, and then better observe the smaller - earth sized - exoplanets.

The cool thing is, the planets we've found so far, are the easy ones. Given how many stars there are.. and the number of planets we've found so far around such a small amount of stars, just really makes your mouth salivate. It's exciting. I just wish we had the ability to visit them.
 
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:30 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
We're getting better and are beginning to expand the spectrum of planets we're able to observe. Put another way, with improvements to kepler, and better modeling by astronomers, we'll be able to better detect the small wobbles in stars we use to detect exoplanets, and then better observe the smaller - earth sized - exoplanets.


plus all Kepler candidates need to be confirmed, and there is just limited telescope time available to do that ... iirc there are some ~2500 candidates from Kepler alone that need confirming.

best regards
Thomas
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:02 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
We're getting better and are beginning to expand the spectrum of planets we're able to observe. Put another way, with improvements to kepler, and better modeling by astronomers, we'll be able to better detect the small wobbles in stars we use to detect exoplanets, and then better observe the smaller - earth sized - exoplanets.


plus all Kepler candidates need to be confirmed, and there is just limited telescope time available to do that ... iirc there are some ~2500 candidates from Kepler alone that need confirming.

best regards
Thomas


Exactly, and that number is only growing. Unfortunately this isn't something they can just crowd source. I can't remember, but I believe the new James Webb telescope is also going to be getting some exoplanet searching time as well. Unfortunately, time with the JWT is at a premium.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:01 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
We're getting better and are beginning to expand the spectrum of planets we're able to observe. Put another way, with improvements to kepler, and better modeling by astronomers, we'll be able to better detect the small wobbles in stars we use to detect exoplanets, and then better observe the smaller - earth sized - exoplanets.


plus all Kepler candidates need to be confirmed, and there is just limited telescope time available to do that ... iirc there are some ~2500 candidates from Kepler alone that need confirming.

best regards
Thomas


Exactly, and that number is only growing. Unfortunately this isn't something they can just crowd source. I can't remember, but I believe the new James Webb telescope is also going to be getting some exoplanet searching time as well. Unfortunately, time with the JWT is at a premium.


It is still 2021 till the JWT is launched. But it will be one hell of a step up.
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:55 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

plus all Kepler candidates need to be confirmed, and there is just limited telescope time available to do that ... iirc there are some ~2500 candidates from Kepler alone that need confirming.

best regards
Thomas


Exactly, and that number is only growing. Unfortunately this isn't something they can just crowd source. I can't remember, but I believe the new James Webb telescope is also going to be getting some exoplanet searching time as well. Unfortunately, time with the JWT is at a premium.


It is still 2021 till the JWT is launched. But it will be one hell of a step up.


Got me! For some reason I thought it was already operational :hyper:
 
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ER757
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:07 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
In regards to the exoplanets that have been found being of "super earth" size or larger and typically close to their host stars: The main reason we currently see this is because of the techniques employed for discovering exoplanets. We're getting better and are beginning to expand the spectrum of planets we're able to observe. Put another way, with improvements to kepler, and better modeling by astronomers, we'll be able to better detect the small wobbles in stars we use to detect exoplanets, and then better observe the smaller - earth sized - exoplanets.

The cool thing is, the planets we've found so far, are the easy ones. Given how many stars there are.. and the number of planets we've found so far around such a small amount of stars, just really makes your mouth salivate. It's exciting. I just wish we had the ability to visit them.

Exactly right - there are undoubtedly other planets out there around stars we've already searched that are simply beyond our ability to confirm using the transit method. Surely some of them are Earth-like and in the habitable zone. James Webb should helps suss them out
 
BN747
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:59 pm

BN747 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Those lifeforms at Yellowstone, I believe are arsenic based...which says yeah, anything is on the table.


Nope. That was a missinterpretation of data and pretty quickly proven to be faulty.

Just like we find practically zero populated areas in the middle of the Gobi, the Sahara and the Atacama shows not every place on a 'perfect sphere' is hospitable to life as we know it.


We pretty much didn´t find any place on this planet that doesn´t harbor life, even when drilling miles deep. Life on earth is everywhere.

And just it..'as we know or define it' ...the universe is decider as who where life can thrive, not humans.


considering how fast life came to be on this rock and how inhospitable earth was at that time it stands to reason that at least fairly simple life would be found almost everywhere where we find liquid water.

best regards
Thomas


No qualms about the arsenic lifeforms in Yellowstone, but reference to desert dwellers was to stay why no large human settlements exist there (with access to rivers or oceans)...but of course there are creepy critters all over the place in what looks like simple mounds of sand. Yes, what is inhabitable force us...doesn't mean some other lifeform can't set up shop and live comfortably.

BN747


One additional thought that I meant to include in my post above...

Life as we know it...is just that, Life as we know and can identify. That's an geocentric view/knowledge.
We are not the arbiters to decide what life can exist where and how...that honor goes to this Universe itself, it has the final say on what combination of elements can 'life'.

Try as we might, we cannot out-imagine capabilities of this Universe. It is the shot caller and final arbiter. But we have managed to exploit, manipulate some inhospitable conditions and make them work to our advantage.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Erebus
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:55 am

tommy1808 wrote:
prebennorholm wrote:
ER757 wrote:
It seems that most of the Earth-like worlds discovered so far are orbiting close to their host stars and are presumed to be tidally locked.

That's mostly a consequence of our observation method being mainly orbital transit. Planets with wider orbit, and therefore not tidally locked, must have an orbital plane to match our line of sight much closer if we shall have a chance to observe them.

The other observation method, star wobble, will discover more planets, both spinning and tidally locked. But that method will never provide any chemical properties of the planet. Also it will mostly discover big planets, Jupiter+ size, and nothing as small as K2-18b.


plus of course you see the effect of the planet going around much more frequently if it goes around once per week instead of once per year or once every 50 years....


This pretty much.

About a couple of years back, I did my part in the hunt for exoplanets as part of a citizen science project. :lol:

There is just a ton of observational data that need to be analysed but not enough researchers to go through them all. And computer algorithms aren't quite as capable as humans in this. So they enlisted the help of an MMO gaming community to identify patterns in the data (in return for game rewards) and submit them to the researchers when it reaches a certain level of consensus.

The vast majority of the samples classified had orbital periods of less than 30 days. It was very rare to find anything over this in the data set. If you stretched out the time period, the star's own light can change and cause obfuscating patterns, so have to be careful here. Some stars have a very regular pattern but not caused by planets. There were even pulsars among the samples. And then, there are also those light dips which do not have a repeat pattern, if they were planets, because the duration of the data capture is not long enough.

It was quite an interesting project, a sort of a peek into the world of exoplanet research. There have been other similar projects elsewhere too.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:42 pm

Erebus wrote:
The vast majority of the samples classified had orbital periods of less than 30 days. It was very rare to find anything over this in the data set. If you stretched out the time period, the star's own light can change and cause obfuscating patterns, so have to be careful here. Some stars have a very regular pattern but not caused by planets. There were even pulsars among the samples. And then, there are also those light dips which do not have a repeat pattern, if they were planets, because the duration of the data capture is not long enough.

It seems to me that you would also only be able to detect planets in systems that were viewed "edge on" to the ecliptic plane or you wouldn't be able to detect a planet passing in front of a the host star.

Tugg
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seb146
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:42 pm

Tugger wrote:
Erebus wrote:
The vast majority of the samples classified had orbital periods of less than 30 days. It was very rare to find anything over this in the data set. If you stretched out the time period, the star's own light can change and cause obfuscating patterns, so have to be careful here. Some stars have a very regular pattern but not caused by planets. There were even pulsars among the samples. And then, there are also those light dips which do not have a repeat pattern, if they were planets, because the duration of the data capture is not long enough.

It seems to me that you would also only be able to detect planets in systems that were viewed "edge on" to the ecliptic plane or you wouldn't be able to detect a planet passing in front of a the host star.

Tugg


Using Alpha Centauri, how many planets are orbiting that star? We could tell if there are planets by fluctuations in light. But, what if there is a planet or are planets orbiting Alpha Centauri that do not pass across the face of the star that we see? My question is hard to ask without using simple terms like "north" and "up" and such.

Think of the old time globes in classrooms. They held the Earth on the poles at a tilt. There was a 180 degree arc from pole to pole supporting the globe, resting on a base. How would science know if there was a planet orbiting a star in that pole to pole orbit?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:45 am

seb146 wrote:
But, what if there is a planet or are planets orbiting Alpha Centauri that do not pass across the face of the star that we see? My question is hard to ask without using simple terms like "north" and "up" and such.


We can see them, with seeing as in detect them, by the effects of their gravity until that gets so little that we can´t filter it out of astroseismologic stuff going on on the host star. Science has figured out ways to do it down to a few meters per second... walking speed.

best regards
Thomas
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FatCat
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:22 am

I am amazed by deep space... too bed I never had the possibility to study, so I remain ignorant...
but in my thoughts, maybe scientists have to be more "open minded" - not the exact definition by the way...
I always read about them looking for "earth-lookalike planets"... it is difficult for us to think that life can be also not based on carbon... or doesen't need to breath oxygen... and maybe there are fishes, that swim in a liquid methane sea or sentient rocks that digest crystals... who knows?
time's also a thing... we always look for an extraterrestrial society with similar technological development... surely maybe we will find a planet capable of developing lifeforms like those on our earth, but they will come out in billions of years... or have been annihilated millions of years ago...
anyway, space's so big... anything can stay inside!
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tommy1808
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:42 am

FatCat wrote:
.. or doesen't need to breath oxygen...


We have plenty of that here.....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
FatCat
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:07 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
FatCat wrote:
.. or doesen't need to breath oxygen...


We have plenty of that here.....

Best regards
Thomas

indeed - so why are we always looking for creatures that live in water, and breathe oxygen?
but again - I'm 99% ignorant on this topic... I'll be amazed to read intelligent contributions. :-)
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tommy1808
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:00 pm

FatCat wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
FatCat wrote:
.. or doesen't need to breath oxygen...


We have plenty of that here.....

Best regards
Thomas

indeed - so why are we always looking for creatures that live in water, and breathe oxygen?


i phrased id badly. We have plenty of life on this planet that doesn´t need Oxygen, at least not free Oxygen. it is the 3th most abundant element in the universe, there is about 2.5 times more than carbon for example, but only 4% as much as Helium and a little over 1% as much as hydrogen. In the beginning of Life on earth all life worked without free oxygen, in fact when cyanobacteria starting liberating that stuff, after all Iron and everything else that oxidizes with contact with the atmosphere was turned into iron-oxide, and it accumulated in the "air", it killed pretty much all life that was here. Oxygen will kill you too if its partial pressure is high enough. Fun fact: by weight most rock is majority oxygen (SiO2).

There is one thing that life needs: complex chemistry to work. For that to happen you need a solvent, and water is exceedingly good at that, and stuff to build you structure, carbon is amazingly good in making complex compounds. That why we expect liquid water, water being the most abundant molecule in the universe that isn´t just two of the same (H2 for example), and carbon as requirements and basis for life, but scientists are also looking at other solvents and bases for life, like liquid methane and silicone for example. But as both don´t allow all that much complicated chemistry to happen, life would probably be fairly simple. We also have no idea what the bio signature would look like, while we do know that lots of free Oxygen doesn´t have any other processes we know of aside of life to produce it.

but again - I'm 99% ignorant on this topic... I'll be amazed to read intelligent contributions. :-)


If you want a crash course on Taxonomy, very interesting stuff, i recommend https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXQP_R- ... D0AvAHAotW
How life could be in the extremes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbkTJeHoOKY (and SVAstronomyLectures is always a good stop to spend an hour or two).

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
texdravid
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:00 am

I support the rare earth hypothesis:

Stable middle aged spectral class G star with the right metallacity with low number of flares or radiation bursts.

A rocky planet not just at the “Goldilocks” distance from its sun, but also having a large gaseous outer planet to absorb many comets and other projectiles.

Being in the “Goldilocks” region of the galaxy. Far enough from center to avoid high radiation and close enough to have enough metallicity in its star.

Large natural satellite that causes tidal forces and the planet having plate tectonics.

Multiple evolutionary pumps such as extinction, glaciation etc.

Life is out there in this vast, vast universe that is so large that is beyond comprehension. However, finding planets with intelligent life capable of human like actions is likely to be very rare.

Let’s keep looking, but the chances of finding a true earth analogy is long. We are a result of a series of extremely rare events that may or may not be reproducible.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:48 pm

Assuming there is intelligent life out there, you wonder if "they" have a telescope pointed at us ;)
Basically, I am asking: if there is intelligent life ,does that automatically imply that those lifeforms will be curious about things as well? Or is having "instinct" enough to be labeled "intelligent"?
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:58 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Assuming there is intelligent life out there, you wonder if "they" have a telescope pointed at us ;)
Basically, I am asking: if there is intelligent life ,does that automatically imply that those lifeforms will be curious about things as well? Or is having "instinct" enough to be labeled "intelligent"?


Gulliver's travels sort of covered this. Imagine an entire planet of introverts always looking down instead of up.

Perhaps complete ecosystems exist inside a planet, never seeing the stars. The planet may not even have an atmosphere in such a case! Think Pellucidar.

The possibilities are endless and only limited by our current imaginations.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:33 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Assuming there is intelligent life out there, you wonder if "they" have a telescope pointed at us ;)
Basically, I am asking: if there is intelligent life ,does that automatically imply that those lifeforms will be curious about things as well? Or is having "instinct" enough to be labeled "intelligent"?


Gulliver's travels sort of covered this. Imagine an entire planet of introverts always looking down instead of up.

Perhaps complete ecosystems exist inside a planet, never seeing the stars. The planet may not even have an atmosphere in such a case! Think Pellucidar.

The possibilities are endless and only limited by our current imaginations.


Have you read the book "Origin" by Dan Brown? If not, I like to suggest it. A theme in the book is evolution and the possibility of computer modeling it. Let me know what you think.
 
BN747
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:38 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Assuming there is intelligent life out there, you wonder if "they" have a telescope pointed at us ;)
Basically, I am asking: if there is intelligent life ,does that automatically imply that those lifeforms will be curious about things as well? Or is having "instinct" enough to be labeled "intelligent"?


Any 'intelligent life' is going to look as would 'predatory lifeforms'.

The aim of each is constant sustainment or betterment of your current existence, particularly if your population is increasing, resources must be abundant and/or accessible.
The only I can see them keeping to themselves are a history loaded with antagonistic encounters outnumbering amenable ones.

B747
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ER757
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Sun Sep 22, 2019 3:17 am

texdravid wrote:
I support the rare earth hypothesis:

Stable middle aged spectral class G star with the right metallacity with low number of flares or radiation bursts.

A rocky planet not just at the “Goldilocks” distance from its sun, but also having a large gaseous outer planet to absorb many comets and other projectiles.

Being in the “Goldilocks” region of the galaxy. Far enough from center to avoid high radiation and close enough to have enough metallicity in its star.

Large natural satellite that causes tidal forces and the planet having plate tectonics.

Multiple evolutionary pumps such as extinction, glaciation etc.

Life is out there in this vast, vast universe that is so large that is beyond comprehension. However, finding planets with intelligent life capable of human like actions is likely to be very rare.

Let’s keep looking, but the chances of finding a true earth analogy is long. We are a result of a series of extremely rare events that may or may not be reproducible.

I'm in the same camp - there were lot of happy coincidences that led to where we are now, you've listed a good number of them. I think there is or was something similar somewhere else out there but to steal a line from a successful movie franchise, it could have been a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:35 am

ER757 wrote:
texdravid wrote:
I support the rare earth hypothesis:

Stable middle aged spectral class G star with the right metallacity with low number of flares or radiation bursts.

A rocky planet not just at the “Goldilocks” distance from its sun, but also having a large gaseous outer planet to absorb many comets and other projectiles.

Being in the “Goldilocks” region of the galaxy. Far enough from center to avoid high radiation and close enough to have enough metallicity in its star.

Large natural satellite that causes tidal forces and the planet having plate tectonics.

Multiple evolutionary pumps such as extinction, glaciation etc.

Life is out there in this vast, vast universe that is so large that is beyond comprehension. However, finding planets with intelligent life capable of human like actions is likely to be very rare.

Let’s keep looking, but the chances of finding a true earth analogy is long. We are a result of a series of extremely rare events that may or may not be reproducible.

I'm in the same camp - there were lot of happy coincidences that led to where we are now, you've listed a good number of them. I think there is or was something similar somewhere else out there but to steal a line from a successful movie franchise, it could have been a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away


Even if we are talking .00001%.. of stars... the shear size of our galaxy alone would present many many cases of life. How sophisticated and what form is debatable. Considering our own cosmic timeline of existence its unlikely many intelligent lifeforms exist at the same time as others.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:53 am

trpmb6 wrote:
ER757 wrote:
texdravid wrote:
I support the rare earth hypothesis:

Stable middle aged spectral class G star with the right metallacity with low number of flares or radiation bursts.

A rocky planet not just at the “Goldilocks” distance from its sun, but also having a large gaseous outer planet to absorb many comets and other projectiles.

Being in the “Goldilocks” region of the galaxy. Far enough from center to avoid high radiation and close enough to have enough metallicity in its star.

Large natural satellite that causes tidal forces and the planet having plate tectonics.

Multiple evolutionary pumps such as extinction, glaciation etc.

Life is out there in this vast, vast universe that is so large that is beyond comprehension. However, finding planets with intelligent life capable of human like actions is likely to be very rare.

Let’s keep looking, but the chances of finding a true earth analogy is long. We are a result of a series of extremely rare events that may or may not be reproducible.

I'm in the same camp - there were lot of happy coincidences that led to where we are now, you've listed a good number of them. I think there is or was something similar somewhere else out there but to steal a line from a successful movie franchise, it could have been a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away


Even if we are talking .00001%.. of stars... the shear size of our galaxy alone would present many many cases of life. How sophisticated and what form is debatable. Considering our own cosmic timeline of existence its unlikely many intelligent lifeforms exist at the same time as others.


Yup... some 400 billion galaxies of 100 billion stars, probably close to a trillion planets and trillions of moons .... even if life is so rare that it blows minds, there is still lots of it.

texdravid wrote:
Multiple evolutionary pumps such as extinction, glaciation etc.

Life is out there in this vast, vast universe that is so large that is beyond comprehension. However, finding planets with intelligent life capable of human like actions is likely to be very rare.


Having a rougher environment seems to speed up evolution quite a bit, providing plenty of selection pressure.....

Let’s keep looking, but the chances of finding a true earth analogy is long. We are a result of a series of extremely rare events that may or may not be reproducible.


Even if only one rock per million galaxies yields intelligent, tool using life, there would still be hundreds of 1000s of them.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Zeppi
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:10 pm

I'm pretty certain that with the JWST we'll be able to detect the first truly earth-like exoplanets in terms of size, temperature and atmosphere.

tommy1808 wrote:
Even if only one rock per million galaxies yields intelligent, tool using life, there would still be hundreds of 1000s of them.


Indeed. There are probably millions out there, even in our galaxy alone. Certainly many have a biological evolution in progress, many even sentient most likely.
But even then our chances to interact are slim to none. Not only is the distance an issue, but also time. For a civilisation to exist let's say half a million years would already be a huge achievement, which in turn would again be but a blink of an eye in cosmic timescales. So the odds for two sentient species to exists at the same time in such close proximity that permits them to interact with each other are again, excuse the pun, astronomical.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 23, 2019 12:16 pm

Zeppi wrote:
Indeed. There are probably millions out there, even in our galaxy alone. Certainly many have a biological evolution in progress, many even sentient most likely.


Isaac Arthur has an excellent series about the Fermi Paradox on his youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZFipe ... Ujx6grh54g
Aside of plenty of cool stuff on mega-structures...

But even then our chances to interact are slim to none. Not only is the distance an issue, but also time. For a civilisation to exist let's say half a million years would already be a huge achievement, which in turn would again be but a blink of an eye in cosmic timescales. So the odds for two sentient species to exists at the same time in such close proximity that permits them to interact with each other are again, excuse the pun, astronomical.


i think once you make a civilization virtually un-killable (multiplanet for real) it will probably last a really, really long time, maybe even to the end of time. And time only really is an issue if your lifespan is limited, and we may see the beginning of the end of that during out lifetimes.....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 23, 2019 2:12 pm

Any idea of the age of earth-like exoplanets? Because if you do, you could run an evolutionary computer model and estimate how advanced life on such a planet would be.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Super Earth K2-18b

Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:43 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Any idea of the age of earth-like exoplanets? Because if you do, you could run an evolutionary computer model and estimate how advanced life on such a planet would be.


We should be able to extrapolate an age of an exo planet based on the age and more importantly the lifecycle of the star.

So far a lot of the exoplanets we've discovered have been around stars in their later cycles, which can have varying impacts on what happened on that exoplanet. If they are currently in the goldilocks zone, that means in the past they most likely were not. Of course, such changes in extremes could also be a massive driver in evolution too. Hard to say.

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