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2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:28 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
The unfortunate reality is that releasing transcripts is difficult. It would set a dangerous precedent. Should we go and demand that all the transcripts between Obama and foreign leaders be released? No. Those are privileged communications by the executive branch and I'm quite certain the President can simply claim Presidential privilege and block the release. What would future foreign leaders think when having a communication with the president? "they claim this is a confidential call but they released those transcripts one time after the fact. I better not be candid on this subject."


But there were no whistleblower complaints that were deemed of "urgent concern" by the Inspector General during the Obama years.

Our government is built on a series of check and balances. How can the congress keep check on the executive branch if the executive branch refuses to comply with the law that REQUIRES them to hand over the complaint? You are basically arguing for a system in which there are no circumstances that allow anyone to have any oversight of the king, sorry, I mean president.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16540
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:45 pm

2122M wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
The unfortunate reality is that releasing transcripts is difficult. It would set a dangerous precedent. Should we go and demand that all the transcripts between Obama and foreign leaders be released? No. Those are privileged communications by the executive branch and I'm quite certain the President can simply claim Presidential privilege and block the release. What would future foreign leaders think when having a communication with the president? "they claim this is a confidential call but they released those transcripts one time after the fact. I better not be candid on this subject."


But there were no whistleblower complaints that were deemed of "urgent concern" by the Inspector General during the Obama years.

Our government is built on a series of check and balances. How can the congress keep check on the executive branch if the executive branch refuses to comply with the law that REQUIRES them to hand over the complaint? You are basically arguing for a system in which there are no circumstances that allow anyone to have any oversight of the king, sorry, I mean president.


But but this king, er POTUS, is all about transparency and doing things totally above board for 'America First', so everything is fine! There's no need for any oversight. MAGA.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:53 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
And the trail against Trump gets more bread crumbs. Maybe a whole bakery.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... raine-days
"
President Trump instructed acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney to place a hold on nearly $400 million in military aid to Ukraine shortly before a phone call in which he allegedly tried to persuade the nation’s president to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden’s son, Hunter, the Washington Post reported Monday."


The freeze on the 400 million dollars in aid to Ukraine was in conjunction with freezing aid to other foreign countries. So it's a moot point. Of course the Post conveniently leaves that out. They use the word "shortly" but the freeze came a couple weeks before the call.


Ironically, nobody was up in arms about withholding military aid to Ukraine (except John Bolton apparently) until today. Because now it appears to be politically useful.

Also ironically, it appears the funding was withheld among concerns of corruption. Which is exactly the same strategy the Obama administration took with Ukraine when it was also withholding funding from Ukraine.

But Trump is claiming it was withheld due to Corruption concerns. Which of the right wing counter-lies will win out for Trump supporters ?

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... ent-frenzy

The White House, at the time, was also up against an appropriation “impoundment” deadline, which meant the money would either have to be spent, or impounded. The White House would have been forced to go to court to justify the impoundment, which sources said it did not want to do


Why would Trump want to avoid going to court if his concerns of corruption were still valid ?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:51 pm

casinterest wrote:
But Trump is claiming it was withheld due to Corruption concerns. Which of the right wing counter-lies will win out for Trump supporters ?


A great take on this from Christine Todd Whitman:

...There are a couple of possible explanations for why the administration slow-walked $250 million in promised military aid to Ukraine, and none of the reasons reflect well on this administration or our country.

Whether it is because supporting the new Ukrainian government goes against Russia’s interests, or because the aid is being used as leverage to get the government to investigate Joe Biden’s son’s involvement in the country for President Trump to use in the campaign makes no difference. Both reasons would be despicable and a serious blot on our country.

Giuliani’s quote about Zelensky having anti-Trump people around him and some who are corrupt sounds like just what Putin loves to hear— – anything to undermine a popular government that is moving closer to the West. This is meddling at its finest and undermines the security of the United States. Ukraine is the proverbial canary in the coal mine for the Baltic region and we should be doing all we can to support it, Russia be damned.


The larger point of her piece is pretty concerning - just what is POTUS's private attorney doing making sweeping statements in public that undermine the credibility of a sovereign state?

https://thebulwark.com/rudy-giulianis-u ... dangerous/
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:06 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
But Trump is claiming it was withheld due to Corruption concerns. Which of the right wing counter-lies will win out for Trump supporters ?


A great take on this from Christine Todd Whitman:

...There are a couple of possible explanations for why the administration slow-walked $250 million in promised military aid to Ukraine, and none of the reasons reflect well on this administration or our country.

Whether it is because supporting the new Ukrainian government goes against Russia’s interests, or because the aid is being used as leverage to get the government to investigate Joe Biden’s son’s involvement in the country for President Trump to use in the campaign makes no difference. Both reasons would be despicable and a serious blot on our country.

Giuliani’s quote about Zelensky having anti-Trump people around him and some who are corrupt sounds like just what Putin loves to hear— – anything to undermine a popular government that is moving closer to the West. This is meddling at its finest and undermines the security of the United States. Ukraine is the proverbial canary in the coal mine for the Baltic region and we should be doing all we can to support it, Russia be damned.


The larger point of her piece is pretty concerning - just what is POTUS's private attorney doing making sweeping statements in public that undermine the credibility of a sovereign state?

https://thebulwark.com/rudy-giulianis-u ... dangerous/


You miss the part where the Obama administration did exactly the same thing, only it was 1 BILLION in loan guarantees because they feared a corrupt Ukranian government! So if we are to believe that Biden was pressuring Ukraine because of corruption, and not because he was trying to protect his son, then we should apply the same to the Trump administration.

And even then it's clear that Biden's situation was still a quid-pro-quo situation where demands were made by the US administration before the funds would be released.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:13 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
But Trump is claiming it was withheld due to Corruption concerns. Which of the right wing counter-lies will win out for Trump supporters ?


A great take on this from Christine Todd Whitman:

...There are a couple of possible explanations for why the administration slow-walked $250 million in promised military aid to Ukraine, and none of the reasons reflect well on this administration or our country.

Whether it is because supporting the new Ukrainian government goes against Russia’s interests, or because the aid is being used as leverage to get the government to investigate Joe Biden’s son’s involvement in the country for President Trump to use in the campaign makes no difference. Both reasons would be despicable and a serious blot on our country.

Giuliani’s quote about Zelensky having anti-Trump people around him and some who are corrupt sounds like just what Putin loves to hear— – anything to undermine a popular government that is moving closer to the West. This is meddling at its finest and undermines the security of the United States. Ukraine is the proverbial canary in the coal mine for the Baltic region and we should be doing all we can to support it, Russia be damned.


The larger point of her piece is pretty concerning - just what is POTUS's private attorney doing making sweeping statements in public that undermine the credibility of a sovereign state?

https://thebulwark.com/rudy-giulianis-u ... dangerous/


You miss the part where the Obama administration did exactly the same thing, only it was 1 BILLION in loan guarantees because they feared a corrupt Ukranian government! So if we are to believe that Biden was pressuring Ukraine because of corruption, and not because he was trying to protect his son, then we should apply the same to the Trump administration.

And even then it's clear that Biden's situation was still a quid-pro-quo situation where demands were made by the US administration before the funds would be released.


Except that in Biden's case, the 1 billion was tied to agreements that were in place before and after the loans were made, to remove corruption. Also that pesky little fact that Obama would have had to sign off on it as Obama was President and not Biden.

Also, there are articles that show that Biden was not a part of any corruption in Ukraine? Did I say articles? Oops meant that the Ukranian government has cleared them back in May.


https://nypost.com/2019/05/16/joe-biden ... cutor/amp/

Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko said Hunter Biden and Burisma, a Ukrainian private gas company of which the younger Biden served on the board, were not the targets of investigations by his office.

He also said the former vice president, and current Democratic 2020 hopeful, didn’t act improperly when he called for the dismissal of Ukraine’s former prosecutor general, Victor Shoki, who had been investigating the company.

“I do not want Ukraine to again be the subject of U.S. presidential elections,” Lutsenko said in an interview with Bloomberg. “Hunter Biden did not violate any Ukrainian laws – at least as of now, we do not see any wrongdoing. A company can pay however much it wants to its board.”
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:14 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
But Trump is claiming it was withheld due to Corruption concerns. Which of the right wing counter-lies will win out for Trump supporters ?


A great take on this from Christine Todd Whitman:

...There are a couple of possible explanations for why the administration slow-walked $250 million in promised military aid to Ukraine, and none of the reasons reflect well on this administration or our country.

Whether it is because supporting the new Ukrainian government goes against Russia’s interests, or because the aid is being used as leverage to get the government to investigate Joe Biden’s son’s involvement in the country for President Trump to use in the campaign makes no difference. Both reasons would be despicable and a serious blot on our country.

Giuliani’s quote about Zelensky having anti-Trump people around him and some who are corrupt sounds like just what Putin loves to hear— – anything to undermine a popular government that is moving closer to the West. This is meddling at its finest and undermines the security of the United States. Ukraine is the proverbial canary in the coal mine for the Baltic region and we should be doing all we can to support it, Russia be damned.


The larger point of her piece is pretty concerning - just what is POTUS's private attorney doing making sweeping statements in public that undermine the credibility of a sovereign state?

https://thebulwark.com/rudy-giulianis-u ... dangerous/


You miss the part where the Obama administration did exactly the same thing, only it was 1 BILLION in loan guarantees because they feared a corrupt Ukranian government! So if we are to believe that Biden was pressuring Ukraine because of corruption, and not because he was trying to protect his son, then we should apply the same to the Trump administration.

And even then it's clear that Biden's situation was still a quid-pro-quo situation where demands were made by the US administration before the funds would be released.


During the Obama year's the withholding of aid was an international, multilateral effort to remove a corrupt prosecutor. That's quite different then a president going rogue and unilaterally withhold aid on a fishing expedition to see if a foreign government might have information on potential corruption of a political rival, don't you think?
 
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seb146
Posts: 24084
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:30 pm

I wonder if this big nothing burger is a distraction from something? We are no longer talking about Iran or the billions of dollars not being made by American farmers or the Federal Reserve lowering interest rates to prop up the economy.
 
alfa164
Posts: 4000
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:31 pm

2122M wrote:
During the Obama year's the withholding of aid was an international, multilateral effort to remove a corrupt prosecutor. That's quite different then a president going rogue and unilaterally withhold aid on a fishing expedition to see if a foreign government might have information on potential corruption of a political rival, don't you think?


:checkmark: To repeat:

https://thebulwark.com/truth-lies-and-the-nonsense-trump-biden-ukraine-false-equivalency/

For the kids in the back:

PRESSURING A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO INTERFERE ON YOUR BEHALF IN DOMESTIC ELECTIONS = VERY BAD.

PRESSURING A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO INVESTIGATE CROOKS = GOOD
 
mham001
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:23 pm

2122M wrote:
But there were no whistleblower complaints that were deemed of "urgent concern" by the Inspector General during the Obama years.


Assuming this was filed under the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act

The Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act of 1998,[1] amending the Central Intelligence Agency Act of 1949 and the Inspector General Act of 1978, sets forth a procedure for employees and contractors of specified federal intelligence agencies to report complaints or information to Congress about serious problems involving intelligence activities.

Under the ICWPA, an intelligence employee or contractor who intends to report to Congress a complaint or information of "urgent concern" involving an intelligence activity may report the complaint or information to their agency’s inspector general or the Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG). Within a 14-day period, the IG must determine "whether the complaint or information appears credible," and upon finding the information to be credible, thereafter transfer the information to the head of the agency. The law then requires the DNI (or the relevant agency head) to forward the complaint to the congressional intelligence committees, along with any comments he wishes to make about the complaint, within seven days. If the IG does not deem the complaint or information to be credible or does not transmit the information to the head of the agency, the employee may provide the information directly to the House and Senate Intelligence Committees. However, the employee must first inform the IG of his or her intention to contact the intelligence committees directly and must follow the procedures specified in the Act.

The Act defines a matter of "urgent concern" as:[2]

a serious or flagrant problem, abuse, violation of law or Executive order, or deficiency relating to the funding, administration, or operations of an intelligence activity involving classified information, but does not include differences of opinions concerning public policy matters;
A false statement to Congress, or a willful withholding from Congress, on an issue of material fact relating to the funding, administration, or operation of an intelligence activity; or
An action constituting reprisal or threat of reprisal in response to an employee's reporting an urgent concern.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellige ... ection_Act

As I understand it, as it was passed on up, "the head of the agency" disagreed with the Inspector General. Reading the parameters, I am not sure how all this (as RUMORED) pertains to the President, I don't see the tie-in with this law.

alfa164 wrote:

For the kids in the back:

PRESSURING A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO INTERFERE ON YOUR BEHALF IN DOMESTIC ELECTIONS = VERY BAD.

PRESSURING A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO INVESTIGATE CROOKS = GOOD


And when those two actions coincide? Ignore the corrupt crook and elect him next President? Now there is some logical thinking!
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 5:31 pm

mham001 wrote:
2122M wrote:
But there were no whistleblower complaints that were deemed of "urgent concern" by the Inspector General during the Obama years.


Assuming this was filed under the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act

The Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act of 1998,[1] amending the Central Intelligence Agency Act of 1949 and the Inspector General Act of 1978, sets forth a procedure for employees and contractors of specified federal intelligence agencies to report complaints or information to Congress about serious problems involving intelligence activities.

Under the ICWPA, an intelligence employee or contractor who intends to report to Congress a complaint or information of "urgent concern" involving an intelligence activity may report the complaint or information to their agency’s inspector general or the Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG). Within a 14-day period, the IG must determine "whether the complaint or information appears credible," and upon finding the information to be credible, thereafter transfer the information to the head of the agency. The law then requires the DNI (or the relevant agency head) to forward the complaint to the congressional intelligence committees, along with any comments he wishes to make about the complaint, within seven days. If the IG does not deem the complaint or information to be credible or does not transmit the information to the head of the agency, the employee may provide the information directly to the House and Senate Intelligence Committees. However, the employee must first inform the IG of his or her intention to contact the intelligence committees directly and must follow the procedures specified in the Act.

The Act defines a matter of "urgent concern" as:[2]

a serious or flagrant problem, abuse, violation of law or Executive order, or deficiency relating to the funding, administration, or operations of an intelligence activity involving classified information, but does not include differences of opinions concerning public policy matters;
A false statement to Congress, or a willful withholding from Congress, on an issue of material fact relating to the funding, administration, or operation of an intelligence activity; or
An action constituting reprisal or threat of reprisal in response to an employee's reporting an urgent concern.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellige ... ection_Act

As I understand it, as it was passed on up, "the head of the agency" disagreed with the Inspector General. Reading the parameters, I am not sure how all this (as RUMORED) pertains to the President, I don't see the tie-in with this law.

alfa164 wrote:

For the kids in the back:

PRESSURING A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO INTERFERE ON YOUR BEHALF IN DOMESTIC ELECTIONS = VERY BAD.

PRESSURING A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO INVESTIGATE CROOKS = GOOD


And when those two actions coincide? Ignore the corrupt crook and elect him next President? Now there is some logical thinking!



From your link: "The law then requires the DNI (or the relevant agency head) to forward the complaint to the congressional intelligence committees, along with any comments he wishes to make about the complaint, within seven days"

It does not appear to give the relevant agency head any option to override the IGs decision. it simply states the that the agency head has 7 days to forward that complaint to the relevant committees. If the acting DNI fails to do that, he is breaking the law as it is written. If the acting DNI fails to do that because POTUS tells him not to, than the acting DNI is breaking the law and POTUS is attempting to obstruct justice.
 
wingman
Posts: 4194
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:09 pm

mham001 wrote:
And when those two actions coincide? Ignore the corrupt crook and elect him next President? Now there is some logical thinking!


Wouldn't labelling Biden a "corrupt crook" require an investigation under US law? You can't just lock people up or claim they're criminals without due process. This is where GOP logic vanishes into the mist of blind allegiance to Trump. Trump at least is finally able to say that there's was no collusion with Russia proven by the FBI because a Special Counsel was appointed that investigated him and his administration. Wouldn't you offer Hillary and Biden the same courtesy of constitutional due process in accordance with long-established law? It's sad that I have to refer to that as a "courtesy" when it is in fact the law of the land. How do you defend such a stance?
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:10 pm

2122M wrote:
mham001 wrote:
2122M wrote:
But there were no whistleblower complaints that were deemed of "urgent concern" by the Inspector General during the Obama years.


Assuming this was filed under the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act

The Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act of 1998,[1] amending the Central Intelligence Agency Act of 1949 and the Inspector General Act of 1978, sets forth a procedure for employees and contractors of specified federal intelligence agencies to report complaints or information to Congress about serious problems involving intelligence activities.

Under the ICWPA, an intelligence employee or contractor who intends to report to Congress a complaint or information of "urgent concern" involving an intelligence activity may report the complaint or information to their agency’s inspector general or the Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG). Within a 14-day period, the IG must determine "whether the complaint or information appears credible," and upon finding the information to be credible, thereafter transfer the information to the head of the agency. The law then requires the DNI (or the relevant agency head) to forward the complaint to the congressional intelligence committees, along with any comments he wishes to make about the complaint, within seven days. If the IG does not deem the complaint or information to be credible or does not transmit the information to the head of the agency, the employee may provide the information directly to the House and Senate Intelligence Committees. However, the employee must first inform the IG of his or her intention to contact the intelligence committees directly and must follow the procedures specified in the Act.

The Act defines a matter of "urgent concern" as:[2]

a serious or flagrant problem, abuse, violation of law or Executive order, or deficiency relating to the funding, administration, or operations of an intelligence activity involving classified information, but does not include differences of opinions concerning public policy matters;
A false statement to Congress, or a willful withholding from Congress, on an issue of material fact relating to the funding, administration, or operation of an intelligence activity; or
An action constituting reprisal or threat of reprisal in response to an employee's reporting an urgent concern.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellige ... ection_Act

As I understand it, as it was passed on up, "the head of the agency" disagreed with the Inspector General. Reading the parameters, I am not sure how all this (as RUMORED) pertains to the President, I don't see the tie-in with this law.



From your link: "The law then requires the DNI (or the relevant agency head) to forward the complaint to the congressional intelligence committees, along with any comments he wishes to make about the complaint, within seven days"

It does not appear to give the relevant agency head any option to override the IGs decision. it simply states the that the agency head has 7 days to forward that complaint to the relevant committees. If the acting DNI fails to do that, he is breaking the law as it is written. If the acting DNI fails to do that because POTUS tells him not to, than the acting DNI is breaking the law and POTUS is attempting to obstruct justice.


Problem is, the head of his agency is saying it doesn't fall under this law at all and none of it pertains.

I suspect however that Trump will release the transcripts and there will be a huge letdown for the impeachment crowd about this RUMOR. He seems pretty confident about the whole thing, almost too much.
 
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casinterest
Posts: 14172
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:12 pm

mham001 wrote:
2122M wrote:
mham001 wrote:

Assuming this was filed under the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act

The Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act of 1998,[1] amending the Central Intelligence Agency Act of 1949 and the Inspector General Act of 1978, sets forth a procedure for employees and contractors of specified federal intelligence agencies to report complaints or information to Congress about serious problems involving intelligence activities.

Under the ICWPA, an intelligence employee or contractor who intends to report to Congress a complaint or information of "urgent concern" involving an intelligence activity may report the complaint or information to their agency’s inspector general or the Intelligence Community Inspector General (ICIG). Within a 14-day period, the IG must determine "whether the complaint or information appears credible," and upon finding the information to be credible, thereafter transfer the information to the head of the agency. The law then requires the DNI (or the relevant agency head) to forward the complaint to the congressional intelligence committees, along with any comments he wishes to make about the complaint, within seven days. If the IG does not deem the complaint or information to be credible or does not transmit the information to the head of the agency, the employee may provide the information directly to the House and Senate Intelligence Committees. However, the employee must first inform the IG of his or her intention to contact the intelligence committees directly and must follow the procedures specified in the Act.

The Act defines a matter of "urgent concern" as:[2]

a serious or flagrant problem, abuse, violation of law or Executive order, or deficiency relating to the funding, administration, or operations of an intelligence activity involving classified information, but does not include differences of opinions concerning public policy matters;
A false statement to Congress, or a willful withholding from Congress, on an issue of material fact relating to the funding, administration, or operation of an intelligence activity; or
An action constituting reprisal or threat of reprisal in response to an employee's reporting an urgent concern.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellige ... ection_Act

As I understand it, as it was passed on up, "the head of the agency" disagreed with the Inspector General. Reading the parameters, I am not sure how all this (as RUMORED) pertains to the President, I don't see the tie-in with this law.



From your link: "The law then requires the DNI (or the relevant agency head) to forward the complaint to the congressional intelligence committees, along with any comments he wishes to make about the complaint, within seven days"

It does not appear to give the relevant agency head any option to override the IGs decision. it simply states the that the agency head has 7 days to forward that complaint to the relevant committees. If the acting DNI fails to do that, he is breaking the law as it is written. If the acting DNI fails to do that because POTUS tells him not to, than the acting DNI is breaking the law and POTUS is attempting to obstruct justice.


Problem is, the head of his agency is saying it doesn't fall under this law at all and none of it pertains.

I suspect however that Trump will release the transcripts and there will be a huge letdown for the impeachment crowd about this RUMOR. He seems pretty confident about the whole thing, almost too much.


If he was that confident, I think we would already have the transcript.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:14 pm

mham001 wrote:
Problem is, the head of his agency is saying it doesn't fall under this law at all and none of it pertains.


Problem is, that's 100% irrelevant. The IG captains this ship. The acting DNI has one responsibility according this law, and that is to add his comments and pass it to congress within 7 days. Not doing exactly that means the acting DNI is a criminal.

Just to add; this is what checks and balances are all about. Don't you think the system of checks and balances should be functional?
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:19 pm

2122M wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Problem is, the head of his agency is saying it doesn't fall under this law at all and none of it pertains.


Problem is, that's 100% irrelevant. The IG captains this ship. The acting DNI has one responsibility according this law, and that is to add his comments and pass it to congress within 7 days. Not doing exactly that means the acting DNI is a criminal.

Just to add; this is what checks and balances are all about. Don't you think the system of checks and balances should be functional?


I posted the law, can you show how it would pertain to a conversation between heads of state? This is not the end-all-be-all law, there are other laws regarding privileged executive information. There is a lot of gray there and a dangerous precedent in basically releasing it to the public through the Intelligence Committees. I am a bit taken aback that US intelligence is spying on executive conversations.
 
2122M
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:35 pm

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:26 pm

mham001 wrote:
2122M wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Problem is, the head of his agency is saying it doesn't fall under this law at all and none of it pertains.


Problem is, that's 100% irrelevant. The IG captains this ship. The acting DNI has one responsibility according this law, and that is to add his comments and pass it to congress within 7 days. Not doing exactly that means the acting DNI is a criminal.

Just to add; this is what checks and balances are all about. Don't you think the system of checks and balances should be functional?


I posted the law, can you show how it would pertain to a conversation between heads of state? This is not the end-all-be-all law, there are other laws regarding privileged executive information. There is a lot of gray there and a dangerous precedent. I am a bit taken aback that US intelligence is spying on executive conversations.


This has nothing at all to do with phone calls with heads of state. Do you understand what a whistleblower is? Are you clear on the concept? If someone sees something that person deems as dangerous or irresponsible, that person can report it to the IG. The IG then determines with the concern is credible and takes action based on that. A whistleblower could comment on physical abuse by an official, a drinking problem, or an attempt to subvert American democracy. If you would prefer we completely eliminate our system of checks and balances and allow the President to act with no oversight at all, then all I can say is that you must have a deep misunderstanding of what American democracy was meant to be.

Now back to your point. Surely you can concede that as the law is written, the acting DNI has zero say whatsoever on whether or not this complaint gets passed to congress, right?
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:26 pm

casinterest wrote:
If he was that confident, I think we would already have the transcript.


I think he's playing it up, I heard him egging on the media, telling them to go for it because he was going to make them look like fools again. We'll see.
 
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trpmb6
Posts: 3018
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:44 pm

mham001 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
If he was that confident, I think we would already have the transcript.


I think he's playing it up, I heard him egging on the media, telling them to go for it because he was going to make them look like fools again. We'll see.


Looks like ya'll are going to get your wish!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ocid=ientp

President Donald Trump said he will release on Wednesday the “complete, fully declassified and unredacted transcript” of his phone call with the Ukrainian president in which he discussed a possible investigation into Joe Biden and his son.
 
mham001
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:48 pm

2122M wrote:
mham001 wrote:
2122M wrote:

Problem is, that's 100% irrelevant. The IG captains this ship. The acting DNI has one responsibility according this law, and that is to add his comments and pass it to congress within 7 days. Not doing exactly that means the acting DNI is a criminal.

Just to add; this is what checks and balances are all about. Don't you think the system of checks and balances should be functional?


I posted the law, can you show how it would pertain to a conversation between heads of state? This is not the end-all-be-all law, there are other laws regarding privileged executive information. There is a lot of gray there and a dangerous precedent. I am a bit taken aback that US intelligence is spying on executive conversations.


This has nothing at all to do with phone calls with heads of state. Do you understand what a whistleblower is? Are you clear on the concept? If someone sees something that person deems as dangerous or irresponsible, that person can report it to the IG. The IG then determines with the concern is credible and takes action based on that. A whistleblower could comment on physical abuse by an official, a drinking problem, or an attempt to subvert American democracy. If you would prefer we completely eliminate our system of checks and balances and allow the President to act with no oversight at all, then all I can say is that you must have a deep misunderstanding of what American democracy was meant to be.

Now back to your point. Surely you can concede that as the law is written, the acting DNI has zero say whatsoever on whether or not this complaint gets passed to congress, right?


I recommend you reread the law. It pertains only to matters of intelligence and intelligence officials. Nothing more. There is no provision for abuse of power by the President. The RUMORS do not suggest the improper release of intelligence information or the abuse of intelligence information. Similarly, the DNI is also bound by other laws, such as the release of information deemed executive privilege. Like I said, this whistleblower law is not the end-all-be-all law that supersedes all others.
I do take exception to the idea that every conversation the President has with foreign leaders is subject to the opinion of some agent that it subverts American democracy. That isn't at all what the law is meant to do. The law is quite explicit - it must involve an "intelligence activity". I have not seem an indication this RUMOR does.
 
737307
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:50 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
mham001 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
If he was that confident, I think we would already have the transcript.


I think he's playing it up, I heard him egging on the media, telling them to go for it because he was going to make them look like fools again. We'll see.


Looks like ya'll are going to get your wish!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ocid=ientp

President Donald Trump said he will release on Wednesday the “complete, fully declassified and unredacted transcript” of his phone call with the Ukrainian president in which he discussed a possible investigation into Joe Biden and his son.


How does one know the transcript is unredacted? How about releasing the tape recording?
 
2122M
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:51 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
mham001 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
If he was that confident, I think we would already have the transcript.


I think he's playing it up, I heard him egging on the media, telling them to go for it because he was going to make them look like fools again. We'll see.


Looks like ya'll are going to get your wish!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ocid=ientp

President Donald Trump said he will release on Wednesday the “complete, fully declassified and unredacted transcript” of his phone call with the Ukrainian president in which he discussed a possible investigation into Joe Biden and his son.


He also promised to release his taxes once he got elected. remember that?

I'll believe this when I see it.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:52 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
mham001 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
If he was that confident, I think we would already have the transcript.


I think he's playing it up, I heard him egging on the media, telling them to go for it because he was going to make them look like fools again. We'll see.


Looks like ya'll are going to get your wish!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ocid=ientp

President Donald Trump said he will release on Wednesday the “complete, fully declassified and unredacted transcript” of his phone call with the Ukrainian president in which he discussed a possible investigation into Joe Biden and his son.


Wonder if the Ukranian President will agree that it is unredacted?
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:52 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
mham001 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
If he was that confident, I think we would already have the transcript.


I think he's playing it up, I heard him egging on the media, telling them to go for it because he was going to make them look like fools again. We'll see.


Looks like ya'll are going to get your wish!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ocid=ientp

President Donald Trump said he will release on Wednesday the “complete, fully declassified and unredacted transcript” of his phone call with the Ukrainian president in which he discussed a possible investigation into Joe Biden and his son.

Is this like when he was going to release his taxes? :rotfl: That audit is taking forever...
 
2122M
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:57 pm

mham001 wrote:
2122M wrote:
mham001 wrote:

I posted the law, can you show how it would pertain to a conversation between heads of state? This is not the end-all-be-all law, there are other laws regarding privileged executive information. There is a lot of gray there and a dangerous precedent. I am a bit taken aback that US intelligence is spying on executive conversations.


This has nothing at all to do with phone calls with heads of state. Do you understand what a whistleblower is? Are you clear on the concept? If someone sees something that person deems as dangerous or irresponsible, that person can report it to the IG. The IG then determines with the concern is credible and takes action based on that. A whistleblower could comment on physical abuse by an official, a drinking problem, or an attempt to subvert American democracy. If you would prefer we completely eliminate our system of checks and balances and allow the President to act with no oversight at all, then all I can say is that you must have a deep misunderstanding of what American democracy was meant to be.

Now back to your point. Surely you can concede that as the law is written, the acting DNI has zero say whatsoever on whether or not this complaint gets passed to congress, right?


I recommend you reread the law. It pertains only to matters of intelligence and intelligence officials. Nothing more. There is no provision for abuse of power by the President. The RUMORS do not suggest the improper release of intelligence information or the abuse of intelligence information. Similarly, the DNI is also bound by other laws, such as the release of information deemed executive privilege. Like I said, this whistleblower law is not the end-all-be-all law that supersedes all others.
I do take exception to the idea that every conversation the President has with foreign leaders is subject to the opinion of some agent that it subverts American democracy. That isn't at all what the law is meant to do. The law is quite explicit - it must involve an "intelligence activity". I have not seem an indication this RUMOR does.


I believe you have too narrow a view of what is considered appropriate activity here. But no matter. If you believe that the IG should have his power diminished and that whistleblowers should not come forward if they see illegal or inappropriate activity, then I suppose you are entitled to that opinion. I, on the other hand, am in favor of transparency and would prefer that congress is allowed to act as a check on the executive branch (and vice versa).
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:05 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
mham001 wrote:

I think he's playing it up, I heard him egging on the media, telling them to go for it because he was going to make them look like fools again. We'll see.


Looks like ya'll are going to get your wish!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ocid=ientp

President Donald Trump said he will release on Wednesday the “complete, fully declassified and unredacted transcript” of his phone call with the Ukrainian president in which he discussed a possible investigation into Joe Biden and his son.

Is this like when he was going to release his taxes? :rotfl: That audit is taking forever...


I expect a walk back later today about "sensitive information" that must be review by intelligence agencies . :)
That or we will get the " Just called to talk, please call me back " answering machine message.
 
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jdstJD
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:15 pm

Well trump says he’s releasing the transcript tomorrow. Let’s see what happens. Maybe that will clear things up. Or maybe be it will be so heavily redacted that it clears absolutely nothing up. Or maybe he’ll pop up tomorrow and say “well I really wanted to release the transcript but I have been blocked from doing so by MY department of justice and MY dir. of national intel.”
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:16 pm

casinterest wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:

Looks like ya'll are going to get your wish!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ocid=ientp


Is this like when he was going to release his taxes? :rotfl: That audit is taking forever...


I expect a walk back later today about "sensitive information" that must be review by intelligence agencies . :)
That or we will get the " Just called to talk, please call me back " answering machine message.



Yall are impossible sometimes.

"He'll never release the transcripts because it'll incriminate him!"

Trump: I'm going to release the transcripts!

"HA! Fat chance of that ever happening! I'll believe it when I see it! They'll be faked! Nothing in it will be real and the Ukranian's and Russian's will agree completely to everything that was said in it! Trump's a putin puppet!"

Shall I go on?

Like I said, impossible to please you folks sometimes.

jdstJD wrote:
Or maybe he’ll pop up tomorrow and say “well I really wanted to release the transcript but I have been blocked from doing so by MY department of justice and MY dir. of national intel.”


Except he said he already authorized the full declassification of it.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:23 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Is this like when he was going to release his taxes? :rotfl: That audit is taking forever...


I expect a walk back later today about "sensitive information" that must be review by intelligence agencies . :)
That or we will get the " Just called to talk, please call me back " answering machine message.



Yall are impossible sometimes.

"He'll never release the transcripts because it'll incriminate him!"

Trump: I'm going to release the transcripts!

"HA! Fat chance of that ever happening! I'll believe it when I see it! They'll be faked! Nothing in it will be real and the Ukranian's and Russian's will agree completely to everything that was said in it! Trump's a putin puppet!"

Shall I go on?

Like I said, impossible to please you folks sometimes.

jdstJD wrote:
Or maybe he’ll pop up tomorrow and say “well I really wanted to release the transcript but I have been blocked from doing so by MY department of justice and MY dir. of national intel.”


Except he said he already authorized the full declassification of it.


So you have his tax forms?
Can't trust these R's. They like to lie and walk away like nothing happened.
 
SanDiegoLover
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:29 pm

MikeDrop wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
2122M wrote:
My guess is that Trump knows this is all nonsense, but he also know that facts behind the case don't matter. He effectively shouted "Hilary" and "Benghazi" enough times to convince just enough people that Hilary might have some culpability there, so now he's going to shout 'Biden" and "Burisma" over and over again to do the same thing. Reasonable people everywhere will look into the story enough and realize that the US was just doing exactly the same thing that the rest of our Western Allies (remember them?) were doing in pressuring a corrupt prosecutor to step down. But there will be a few people that will get sucked into the echo chamber being broadcast by folks just like our own Anet right-wing trolls and begin to believe there is something fishy going on when in fact there is not.


Former Republican Congressman turned morning show host skewers Trump and even shows Fox News clips that this President engagedin outright corruption. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8lfIrbTm8kY

I think it’s also important to remember the huge outflow of people quitting this administration right after these calls took place, like Dan Coats, his top deputy, John Huntsman, and several others. All lifelong Republicans.

Do you have any sources that these departures were related or even in the same time frame? Or is this just speculation on your part. Also, using an MSNBC anti-Trump zealot and his anti-Trump wife as a source of anything will convince no one of anything. Joe Scarborough and his troll wife have even less credibility than Sean Hannity. And Hannity has zero credibility.

Mike Drop


I’m not trying to convince you of anything. No offense, but you’re a “true believer” and in my estimation nothing will convince you otherwise. Nixon still had a number of them even deep into 1975. I’m not going to waste time posting links to all of their departures (all within days) because you will just take issue with whatever source I use as “proof” and I refuse to wade thru Breitbart or Whatafinger to find you source links. Heck, I don’t even know what Trump believers will actually listen to given Fox News is “too MSM” and Drudge is a “globalist shill” these days according to them.

By posting the video it is obviously both “preaching to the choir”, but also for independents who know Morning Joe was a Republican and frequent critic of Obama. Trump now has Republican Senator Burr opening an investigation. https://www.yahoo.com/news/senate-intel ... 18049.html
 
2122M
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 7:36 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Is this like when he was going to release his taxes? :rotfl: That audit is taking forever...


I expect a walk back later today about "sensitive information" that must be review by intelligence agencies . :)
That or we will get the " Just called to talk, please call me back " answering machine message.



Yall are impossible sometimes.

"He'll never release the transcripts because it'll incriminate him!"

Trump: I'm going to release the transcripts!

"HA! Fat chance of that ever happening! I'll believe it when I see it! They'll be faked! Nothing in it will be real and the Ukranian's and Russian's will agree completely to everything that was said in it! Trump's a putin puppet!"

Shall I go on?

Like I said, impossible to please you folks sometimes.

jdstJD wrote:
Or maybe he’ll pop up tomorrow and say “well I really wanted to release the transcript but I have been blocked from doing so by MY department of justice and MY dir. of national intel.”


Except he said he already authorized the full declassification of it.


It's just that history has a habit of repeating itself:

'Big Immigration raids coming this weekend' - Never happened
'Repeal and Replace Obamacare act in the first 100 days' - Never happened (apparently is complicated...)
'American Infrastructure Act in the first 100 days with 1 billion in investments' - Never happened
'I'll never settle the Trump University lawsuit' - Settled
“I will absolutely apologize sometime in the hopefully distant future if I’m ever wrong.” - Sharpie-gate anyone?
'I'll set up a private trust for my businesses' - whoops

How about this doozy:

“I tweeted today. At ‘realdonaldtrump,’ I tweet. You know it… don’t worry, I’ll give it up after I’m president. We won’t tweet anymore, I don’t think. Not presidential.” - LOL

Anyway, you get the point. So forgive us if we find it hard to take Trump on his word.
 
MaverickM11
Topic Author
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:02 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Is this like when he was going to release his taxes? :rotfl: That audit is taking forever...


I expect a walk back later today about "sensitive information" that must be review by intelligence agencies . :)
That or we will get the " Just called to talk, please call me back " answering machine message.



Yall are impossible sometimes.

"He'll never release the transcripts because it'll incriminate him!"

Trump: I'm going to release the transcripts!

"HA! Fat chance of that ever happening! I'll believe it when I see it! They'll be faked! Nothing in it will be real and the Ukranian's and Russian's will agree completely to everything that was said in it! Trump's a putin puppet!"

Shall I go on?

Like I said, impossible to please you folks sometimes.

jdstJD wrote:
Or maybe he’ll pop up tomorrow and say “well I really wanted to release the transcript but I have been blocked from doing so by MY department of justice and MY dir. of national intel.”


Except he said he already authorized the full declassification of it.

Well if there's anything you can trust, it's what Trump says. Jesus Christ. :banghead:
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:25 pm

mham001 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

For the kids in the back:

PRESSURING A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO INTERFERE ON YOUR BEHALF IN DOMESTIC ELECTIONS = VERY BAD.

PRESSURING A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT TO INVESTIGATE CROOKS = GOOD


And when those two actions coincide? Ignore the corrupt crook and elect him next President? Now there is some logical thinking!


We already elected the corrupt crook; it is time to make a change.

As mush as I wish it could be a Republican, that is unlikely... so we will bite our tongues and vote for the democrat, if that is what it takes to get rid of our national embarrassment.

jdstJD wrote:
Well trump says he’s releasing the transcript tomorrow. Let’s see what happens. Maybe that will clear things up. Or maybe be it will be so heavily redacted that it clears absolutely nothing up. Or maybe he’ll pop up tomorrow and say “well I really wanted to release the transcript but I have been blocked from doing so by MY department of justice and MY dir. of national intel.”


I'd bet on the last one.

SanDiegoLover wrote:
Nixon still had a number of them even deep into 1975. I’m not going to waste time posting links to all of their departures (all within days) because you will just take issue with whatever source I use as “proof” and I refuse to wade thru Breitbart or Whatafinger to find you source links. Heck, I don’t even know what Trump believers will actually listen to given Fox News is “too MSM” and Drudge is a “globalist shill” these days according to them.


Okay... confession time. In 1975, I was one of those; I thought Nixon had accomplished so much, I wouldn't believe all the negatives. It took me a long time to face the truth: Nixon was a scumbag. No matter what he accomplished... no matter how much I agreed with his policies... he was a scumbag. And America deserved more than a scumbag.

Flash forward to 2019. We have another scumbag in the White House... a man who makes his every move an attempt to line his own pockets, regardless of what the impact is on the USA and the world. He denies science, and eliminated the possibility of US industry becoming the world leaders in clean energy, because he wants money from coal and oil. He sacrifices the future of our public lands, as he begs for support from those same special interests. And he tries to use the power of the public purse to advance his own agenda - and denigrate his opponents.

Donald J. Trump... is a scumbag. And one again, America deserves better than that.
 
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jdstJD
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:50 pm

trpmb6 wrote:

jdstJD wrote:
Or maybe he’ll pop up tomorrow and say “well I really wanted to release the transcript but I have been blocked from doing so by MY department of justice and MY dir. of national intel.”


Except he said he already authorized the full declassification of it.


Doesn’t mean he won’t still say he can’t now release it because of some asinine reason.
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:31 am

trpmb6 wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
Or maybe he’ll pop up tomorrow and say “well I really wanted to release the transcript but I have been blocked from doing so by MY department of justice and MY dir. of national intel.”


Except he said he already authorized the full declassification of it.


Where are those transcripts? It would show his innocence and how corrupt Joe Biden is, right? If that were the case, he would drop copies from every and all available Cessna Caravans and Twin Otters. Where is the transcript?
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 1:27 am

Well,
The senate wants the whistleblower report., and just voted 100-0 to get it from the white house .

https://www.theweek.com/speedreads/8674 ... -complaint

Trump is now in a corner. Either the whistleblower report is a fake and a plant by the Trump admin, or Trump solicited a foreign country for dirt on a political rival. . Either way impeachable offenses.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:10 pm

Transcripts are released.

Biden was mentioned once in the call which lasted 30 minutes.

“There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, what Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that, so whatever you can do with the attorney general would be great,” Trump said in the call, according to NBC.

Trump added: “Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution, so if you can look into it, It sounds horrible to me.”


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/25/trump-a ... -call.html

Looks benign to me. It was information already publicly known. No quid pro quo.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:22 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Transcripts are released.

Biden was mentioned once in the call which lasted 30 minutes.

“There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, what Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that, so whatever you can do with the attorney general would be great,” Trump said in the call, according to NBC.

Trump added: “Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution, so if you can look into it, It sounds horrible to me.”


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/25/trump-a ... -call.html

Looks benign to me. It was information already publicly known. No quid pro quo.


I got some water to sell you in the middle of the pacific. .

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump- ... n-n1058551

This makes it look like Giuliani and Barr will be the first records pulled for the impeachment. They trashed the Ambassador to the Ukraine, and Trump pushed for an inquiry into a political rival, and sent Giuliani, a lawyer, to Ukraine for discussions.


Also the white house has stated that the transcript is not verbatim. Can't wait to hear the whistleblower report.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:32 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Transcripts are released.

Biden was mentioned once in the call which lasted 30 minutes.

“There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, what Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that, so whatever you can do with the attorney general would be great,” Trump said in the call, according to NBC.

Trump added: “Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution, so if you can look into it, It sounds horrible to me.”


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/25/trump-a ... -call.html

Looks benign to me. It was information already publicly known. No quid pro quo.


Benign? How in the world would any of this be germaine to US-Ukraine relations:

I would like you to find out what happened with
this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike ... I guess
you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say
Ukraine has it. There- are a lot. of things that went on, the whole situation .. I think you're surrounding yourself with some
of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General
call you or your people and I would like you to get to the
bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended
with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an
incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with
Ukraine.


And then the multiple references to Giuliani - WTF is a personal attorney doing getting involved in conversations with a foreign leader...this is ridiculously unprofessional crap.

Also it boggles the mind that a 30 minute conversation would produce just a handful of paragraphs, even with translators on the line. Any of us would produce that amount of content in just a five-minute text conversation, much less 30 minutes on the phone. This is not even close to a complete record.
 
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OA412
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:38 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Also it boggles the mind that a 30 minute conversation would produce just a handful of paragraphs, even with translators on the line. Any of us would produce that amount of content in just a five-minute text conversation, much less 30 minutes on the phone. This is not even close to a complete record.

That was my first thought as well. I opened it and was shocked to see it's just 5 pages long. I was expecting a much larger file.
 
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johnboy
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:51 pm

I’ve never been able to ascertain what it is about Trump that appeals to people, unless they’re truly amoral, narcissistic schlubs themselves. I suspect that’s the common denominator here.

Truly odious, which is why no one on Team Trump seems to “get” any wrongdoing. Speaking of, has anyone seen that NIKV person? I’m sure he’s happy that the impeachment train has finally left the station.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:52 pm

OA412 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Also it boggles the mind that a 30 minute conversation would produce just a handful of paragraphs, even with translators on the line. Any of us would produce that amount of content in just a five-minute text conversation, much less 30 minutes on the phone. This is not even close to a complete record.

That was my first thought as well. I opened it and was shocked to see it's just 5 pages long. I was expecting a much larger file.

It's quite a big process that ultimately creates more of a memo than a transcription. Calls between the president and foreign leaders have not been recorded since the 1970s. At least under administrations previous to this one (I am unsure of the current protocol), two to three staffers listen to the call in the Situation Room and take notes. Sometimes this includes quotes, and sometimes includes general highlights of the conversation. At the end of the call, the staffers compare notes, and combine them into a single raw document. That is sent to the NSC, where it is further edited as they see fit. The final document is what is submitted into the record, and may be lacking some information originally contained in the raw notes. That document is what is distributed to the relevant officials/agencies as necessary.

This release was never going to be a word-for-word transcription, because that never existed. The only evidence of what transpired on the call is from the individuals who were actually present for the call itself. It is likely that the whistleblower was one of the individuals involved in the process producing the document, and may have been present in the Situation Room for the call itself. Obviously the details remain to be seen.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:58 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Transcripts are released.

Biden was mentioned once in the call which lasted 30 minutes.

“There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, what Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that, so whatever you can do with the attorney general would be great,” Trump said in the call, according to NBC.

Trump added: “Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution, so if you can look into it, It sounds horrible to me.”


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/25/trump-a ... -call.html

Looks benign to me. It was information already publicly known. No quid pro quo.

You and I both know that this is not a full transcript and if anything, it left even more questions unanswered (such as why are Barr and Giuliani involved, and why was military aid frozen prior to this call?). Unless Trump and Ukraine's president speak as fast as Stephen Hawkins did or there was a lot of sighing, there is absolutely no way that a full 30 minute conversation fits into 5 pages.
 
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DL717
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:58 pm

Another nothing burger. What a shock.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:00 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Transcripts are released.

Biden was mentioned once in the call which lasted 30 minutes.

“There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, what Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that, so whatever you can do with the attorney general would be great,” Trump said in the call, according to NBC.

Trump added: “Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution, so if you can look into it, It sounds horrible to me.”


https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/25/trump-a ... -call.html

Looks benign to me. It was information already publicly known. No quid pro quo.


Benign? How in the world would any of this be germaine to US-Ukraine relations:

I would like you to find out what happened with
this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike ... I guess
you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say
Ukraine has it. There- are a lot. of things that went on, the whole situation .. I think you're surrounding yourself with some
of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General
call you or your people and I would like you to get to the
bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended
with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an
incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with
Ukraine.


And then the multiple references to Giuliani - WTF is a personal attorney doing getting involved in conversations with a foreign leader...this is ridiculously unprofessional crap.

Also it boggles the mind that a 30 minute conversation would produce just a handful of paragraphs, even with translators on the line. Any of us would produce that amount of content in just a five-minute text conversation, much less 30 minutes on the phone. This is not even close to a complete record.

...never mind Giuliani squawking on all the news programs totally incoherently practically copping to the whole thing. I know it's a dumb, redundant question, but wouldn't you want to muzzle him? Or at least get someone out there that can keep their story straight and not admit guilt freely?
 
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DL717
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:04 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Transcripts are released.

Biden was mentioned once in the call which lasted 30 minutes.



https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/25/trump-a ... -call.html

Looks benign to me. It was information already publicly known. No quid pro quo.


Benign? How in the world would any of this be germaine to US-Ukraine relations:

I would like you to find out what happened with
this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike ... I guess
you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say
Ukraine has it. There- are a lot. of things that went on, the whole situation .. I think you're surrounding yourself with some
of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General
call you or your people and I would like you to get to the
bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended
with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an
incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with
Ukraine.


And then the multiple references to Giuliani - WTF is a personal attorney doing getting involved in conversations with a foreign leader...this is ridiculously unprofessional crap.

Also it boggles the mind that a 30 minute conversation would produce just a handful of paragraphs, even with translators on the line. Any of us would produce that amount of content in just a five-minute text conversation, much less 30 minutes on the phone. This is not even close to a complete record.

...never mind Giuliani squawking on all the news programs totally incoherently practically copping to the whole thing. I know it's a dumb, redundant question, but wouldn't you want to muzzle him? Or at least get someone out there that can keep their story straight and not admit guilt freely?


I watched Giuliani on Tucker’s show last night. I think he’s lost his marbles. He can barely focus on what he’s saying anymore.
 
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OA412
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:09 pm

atcsundevil wrote:
OA412 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Also it boggles the mind that a 30 minute conversation would produce just a handful of paragraphs, even with translators on the line. Any of us would produce that amount of content in just a five-minute text conversation, much less 30 minutes on the phone. This is not even close to a complete record.

That was my first thought as well. I opened it and was shocked to see it's just 5 pages long. I was expecting a much larger file.

It's quite a big process that ultimately creates more of a memo than a transcription. Calls between the president and foreign leaders have not been recorded since the 1970s. At least under administrations previous to this one (I am unsure of the current protocol), two to three staffers listen to the call in the Situation Room and take notes. Sometimes this includes quotes, and sometimes includes general highlights of the conversation. At the end of the call, the staffers compare notes, and combine them into a single raw document. That is sent to the NSC, where it is further edited as they see fit. The final document is what is submitted into the record, and may be lacking some information originally contained in the raw notes. That document is what is distributed to the relevant officials/agencies as necessary.

This release was never going to be a word-for-word transcription, because that never existed. The only evidence of what transpired on the call is from the individuals who were actually present for the call itself. It is likely that the whistleblower was one of the individuals involved in the process producing the document, and may have been present in the Situation Room for the call itself. Obviously the details remain to be seen.

Very interesting. Thanks for the context. I did see the disclaimer on page 1 of the transcript, so it's nice to get in more vivid detail what the disclaimer actually means.
 
737307
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Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:11 pm

OA412 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Also it boggles the mind that a 30 minute conversation would produce just a handful of paragraphs, even with translators on the line. Any of us would produce that amount of content in just a five-minute text conversation, much less 30 minutes on the phone. This is not even close to a complete record.

That was my first thought as well. I opened it and was shocked to see it's just 5 pages long. I was expecting a much larger file.


Heavily redacted, obviously.
In fact, it could be construed as "tampering with evidence"...which can be added to the list of impeachable offenses.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 16540
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:20 pm

DL717 wrote:
Another nothing burger. What a shock.


Oh yeah, such a nothing burger that the DNI resigned like 10 days later. Peachy! And I'm dumbfounded you think injecting a personal attorney into foreign relations is appropriate conduct for the office. Again, might wanna retake civics.
 
alfa164
Posts: 4000
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:32 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Oh yeah, such a nothing burger that the DNI resigned like 10 days later. Peachy! And I'm dumbfounded you think injecting a personal attorney into foreign relations is appropriate conduct for the office. Again, might wanna retake civics.


I am beginning to think someone we know slept through civics class every morning...

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