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casinterest
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:39 pm

windy95 wrote:
Another nothing burger with a side of full blown Trump Derangement Syndrome. This "whistleblower" document reads like the "Pee Pee" dossier. All of which was proven wrong by the release of actual call and backed by the Ukrainian President. The deep state along with the criminal liberal media will stop at nothing. Meanwhile actual video of Biden admitting to doing what Trump is being accused of is being ignored by the MSM and the Dems.


Keep lying to youself.

We can expect years of litigation over this. What you call a deep state is what honorable and decent Americans call good citizens doing their jobs and recognizing breaches of the US constitution.
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Spar
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:43 pm

mham001 wrote:
This coming from a guy who would crow all day long about Trump rental properties in the 1980's. Duly noted.

Observing how Trump managed his real estate properties is very revealing about his (lack of) ethics. As are the facts that he stiffed numerous contractors, filed hundreds of lawsuits, cheated many banks, filed several bankruptcies, buddied up with scumbags like Putin, Duarte, MBS and was best friends with Roy Cohn.

How can you live with yourself after defending a POS like him?
 
bgm
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:43 pm

windy95 wrote:
Another nothing burger with a side of full blown Trump Derangement Syndrome. This "whistleblower" document reads like the "Pee Pee" dossier. All of which was proven wrong by the release of actual call and backed by the Ukrainian President. The deep state along with the criminal liberal media will stop at nothing. Meanwhile actual video of Biden admitting to doing what Trump is being accused of is being ignored by the MSM and the Dems.


Sorry sweetcheeks, your nothingburger ain't gonna work this time no matter how many times you spout it. I'm willing to bet you firmly believe that there's a child sex ring in the basement of Comet Ping Pong in DC, right? Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya, right?

The hilarious thing you skip over is that Trump incriminated himself. Yes, the orange turd can't keep his trap shut, so his own words are the actual evidence.

A transcript was not released. There's clearly a ton of stuff missing, but even the stuff they did put incriminates Trump. And they even emailed some talking points to Nancy. :rotfl: Seriously, you can't make this crap up. What a bunch of morons!

Enjoy your fake nothingburger. It's not going to be anywhere near as satisfying as Trump's delicious impeachmentberder.
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anrec80
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 7:47 pm

jdstJD wrote:
Yes, I am a lawyer and I am very familiar with the attorney-client confidentiality of communications. I am also very familiar with the rules that govern attorney-client confidential communications as well as how starkly different the concept of that rule is from the expectation, not requirement, of confidentiality between heads of state when it comes to communications regarding the affairs of their respective countries.


I do see one fundamental similarity though - it’s trust. Be it trust by the clients, or trust by foreign leaders. Can a foreign leader (even an allied one) discuss important things with senior US leadership without them becoming public at will? For any public stuff in leaders talks, there are press secretaries.

jdstJD wrote:
One obvious distinction is that when two presidents are discussing foreign policy matters, they are supposed to be doing so in the interests of their countries, not in their personal interests or for personal political gain. It is not and should not be an expectation that in having a conversation that is intended to be a strategic communication by one or both leaders for the purpose of maximizing their country's benefit from working with the other country that communications outside of that scope and go into the realm of potential criminal activity will just be hidden away under the same protections that are supposed to be afforded to them for legitimate purposes.


Legitimate concerns, I agree. However, in that case these tape scripts should be examined, say, in a closed session of a Senate committee, before determining if there is even a small chance of something being illegal. I do understand that political competitors will want to examine to see if there is anything affecting them. That needs to be done though in a responsible way, without any unnecessary publicity that could affect the way President and leadership of the country are doing their jobs - ahead of time at least. Both parties are expected by society to put the interest of the whole nation before those of their party. And obviously, this kind of public demonstration of dirty laundry doesn’t do any good for this country. From outside, it just looks like 2 parties are arguing which of them is crookier and more corrupt - that’s all. Foreign leaders should not get pulled into this bi-partisan competition, and there ought to be an agreement between the parties. Otherwise in 2021 you will be investigating again who elected the next US president - was it Putin, Zelensky or someone else.
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:01 pm

anrec80 wrote:
jdstJD wrote:
Yes, I am a lawyer and I am very familiar with the attorney-client confidentiality of communications. I am also very familiar with the rules that govern attorney-client confidential communications as well as how starkly different the concept of that rule is from the expectation, not requirement, of confidentiality between heads of state when it comes to communications regarding the affairs of their respective countries.


I do see one fundamental similarity though - it’s trust. Be it trust by the clients, or trust by foreign leaders. Can a foreign leader (even an allied one) discuss important things with senior US leadership without them becoming public at will? For any public stuff in leaders talks, there are press secretaries.

jdstJD wrote:
One obvious distinction is that when two presidents are discussing foreign policy matters, they are supposed to be doing so in the interests of their countries, not in their personal interests or for personal political gain. It is not and should not be an expectation that in having a conversation that is intended to be a strategic communication by one or both leaders for the purpose of maximizing their country's benefit from working with the other country that communications outside of that scope and go into the realm of potential criminal activity will just be hidden away under the same protections that are supposed to be afforded to them for legitimate purposes.


Legitimate concerns, I agree. However, in that case these tape scripts should be examined, say, in a closed session of a Senate committee, before determining if there is even a small chance of something being illegal. I do understand that political competitors will want to examine to see if there is anything affecting them. That needs to be done though in a responsible way, without any unnecessary publicity that could affect the way President and leadership of the country are doing their jobs - ahead of time at least. Both parties are expected by society to put the interest of the whole nation before those of their party. And obviously, this kind of public demonstration of dirty laundry doesn’t do any good for this country. From outside, it just looks like 2 parties are arguing which of them is crookier and more corrupt - that’s all. Foreign leaders should not get pulled into this bi-partisan competition, and there ought to be an agreement between the parties. Otherwise in 2021 you will be investigating again who elected the next US president - was it Putin, Zelensky or someone else.


The memo of the transcript showed nothing of highest security to be put on a secure server. What the memo of the transcript said was "you do this favor for me (not We The People) and I will do something for you". Because it is on a secure server, it should be reviewed by both House and Senate intelligence committees. I suspect it will show nothing worth being placed on that server.
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seb146
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:05 pm

windy95 wrote:
Another nothing burger with a side of full blown Trump Derangement Syndrome. This "whistleblower" document reads like the "Pee Pee" dossier. All of which was proven wrong by the release of actual call and backed by the Ukrainian President. The deep state along with the criminal liberal media will stop at nothing. Meanwhile actual video of Biden admitting to doing what Trump is being accused of is being ignored by the MSM and the Dems.


So we can vote to remove him based only on Stormy Daniels.

The whistle blower complaint was not handed over to The House as the law says. It was first taken to Bill Barr and the White House. Barr said there was nothing there, even though it was marked urgent and of highest concern. Barr needs to be removed as well, since he broke the law.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Tugger
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:17 pm

anrec80 wrote:
I do see one fundamental similarity though - it’s trust. Be it trust by the clients, or trust by foreign leaders. Can a foreign leader (even an allied one) discuss important things with senior US leadership without them becoming public at will?

Yes, of course a foreign leader can trust the US leadership. And even this was not made public "at will" per se. Also trust is one thing but all leaders know that transcripts are par for the course in key discussions and not matter how much you trust someone, improper or especially illegal pressure are elements cannot be allowed.

And that can be seen by how Ukraine President Zelensky avoided the topic as much as he could, basically just giving neutral at best responses. I mean if he is even only pretending to be against corruption he would see that as an obvious "no go" thing to discuss on the phone with the leader of the USA, the most over documented government (outside of maybe the EU) in the world. (Corruption is best done in person, in private, in spaces with little possibility of eaves dropping.)

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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anrec80
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:17 pm

seb146 wrote:
The memo of the transcript showed nothing of highest security to be put on a secure server. What the memo of the transcript said was "you do this favor for me (not We The People) and I will do something for you". Because it is on a secure server, it should be reviewed by both House and Senate intelligence committees. I suspect it will show nothing worth being placed on that server.


If you want to review the tape scripts in the Committees without unnecessary publicity - sure, that’s fine. As long as the leadership of You The People does not come across as one huge corrupted swamp to the rest of the world.
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:26 pm

Tugger wrote:
Yes, of course a foreign leader can trust the US leadership. And even this was not made public "at will" per se. Also trust is one thing but all leaders know that transcripts are par for the course in key discussions and not matter how much you trust someone, improper or especially illegal pressure are elements cannot be allowed.



Well - this one was exactly at will. Even Ukraine wasn’t happy that it was just released. They did not give their permission, and it would be good to obtain one as well.

Tugger wrote:
And that can be seen by how Ukraine President Zelensky avoided the topic as much as he could, basically just giving neutral at best responses. I mean if he is even only pretending to be against corruption he would see that as an obvious "no go" thing to discuss on the phone with the leader of the USA, the most over documented government (outside of maybe the EU) in the world. (Corruption is best done in person, in private, in spaces with little possibility of eaves dropping.)


This particular one happened to not have anything classified, sure. But many others do - for example, talks about military installations, specs of weapon systems placed there, etc. That is, obviously, highly classified information and isn’t something to go blah-blah about. Thoughtless release of such information (or even demands of such release) can even cause a national security breach to the USA or an important ally.
 
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seb146
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:27 pm

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The memo of the transcript showed nothing of highest security to be put on a secure server. What the memo of the transcript said was "you do this favor for me (not We The People) and I will do something for you". Because it is on a secure server, it should be reviewed by both House and Senate intelligence committees. I suspect it will show nothing worth being placed on that server.


If you want to review the tape scripts in the Committees without unnecessary publicity - sure, that’s fine. As long as the leadership of You The People does not come across as one huge corrupted swamp to the rest of the world.


It is a bit late to start worrying about "one huge corrupted swamp".

I think it would be prudent for both House and Senate Intelligence Committees to review the actual transcript. From what the memo says, the call where the occupant of the White House asked the president of Ukraine to reopen the investigation against Biden did not have high security reasons to be put on that server.

When it is knows there is no reason for that transcript to be on a secure server other than obstruction, we should demand the contents of the server be reviewed by those same intelligence committees because how are we to trust this administration?

All this talk of a secure server and people defending it sounds awfully familiar......
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seb146
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:29 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Yes, of course a foreign leader can trust the US leadership. And even this was not made public "at will" per se. Also trust is one thing but all leaders know that transcripts are par for the course in key discussions and not matter how much you trust someone, improper or especially illegal pressure are elements cannot be allowed.



Well - this one was exactly at will. Even Ukraine wasn’t happy that it was just released. They did not give their permission, and it would be good to obtain one as well.

Tugger wrote:
And that can be seen by how Ukraine President Zelensky avoided the topic as much as he could, basically just giving neutral at best responses. I mean if he is even only pretending to be against corruption he would see that as an obvious "no go" thing to discuss on the phone with the leader of the USA, the most over documented government (outside of maybe the EU) in the world. (Corruption is best done in person, in private, in spaces with little possibility of eaves dropping.)


This particular one happened to not have anything classified, sure. But many others do - for example, talks about military installations, specs of weapon systems placed there, etc. That is, obviously, highly classified information and isn’t something to go blah-blah about. Thoughtless release of such information (or even demands of such release) can even cause a national security breach to the USA or an important ally.


Like tweeting a classified picture of Iranian missile sites?

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/30/politics ... index.html
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Tugger
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:34 pm

anrec80 wrote:
This particular one happened to not have anything classified, sure. But many others do - for example, talks about military installations, specs of weapon systems placed there, etc. That is, obviously, highly classified information and isn’t something to go blah-blah about. Thoughtless release of such information (or even demands of such release) can even cause a national security breach to the USA or an important ally.

And those have been released? Ever? "Thoughtlessly"? Blah-blah'ed about? (Well Trump is a loose cannon, don't know what he will say really ever. So not counting him at the moment).

Tugg
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alfa164
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:45 pm

Spar wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I do thnk the Ukranian President will suffer some backlash, but it will be minimal. He was clearly willing to take on the quid pro quo in order to get defensive weapons to challenge Russia. Trump was merely digging for dirt on an opponent who is not even guaranteed to run against him.


The Ukrainian President is already being laughed at - he looks like a total donkey in this thing. For all his praise to Trump, he is being referred to as Monica Zelinsky.

It is good to hear that the Trump meadia spin crowd is focusing on slandering Zelinsky. This follows the Trump tweets last month which said that the Zelinsky administration was full of Trump haters (or some such thing). This tells us that the Zelinsky administration will be truthful if the impeachment committee has any communication with them.



Actually, that is not the Trump media spin crowd; it is the Russian poster who tries to take any opportunity, with any topic, and attempt to denigrate anything about Ukraine. That's just a consequence of throwing out a corrupt, pro-Russian autocrat, I guess...

:roll:
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alfa164
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:53 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
Tugger wrote:
What are you on about? The transcript isn't being used against the Ukrainian president. He is not involved other than by what Trump did/attempted to do.


I need to spell that out? You don't see the ramifications of using typical, private conversations for political agendas? Wow. No wonder Dems get elected.


Only is the eyes of true Trump lemmings would bribery, blackmail, and/or extortion be considered "typical, private conversations">

:roll:
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anrec80
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:19 pm

seb146 wrote:
I think it would be prudent for both House and Senate Intelligence Committees to review the actual transcript. From what the memo says, the call where the occupant of the White House asked the president of Ukraine to reopen the investigation against Biden did not have high security reasons to be put on that server.


Nonetheless - there are no signs of any law violations anywhere here.

seb146 wrote:
When it is knows there is no reason for that transcript to be on a secure server other than obstruction, we should demand the contents of the server be reviewed by those same intelligence committees because how are we to trust this administration?

All this talk of a secure server and people defending it sounds awfully familiar......


This is not about security - this is about trust that the US government is able to keep data that is traditionally kept confidential such.
 
anrec80
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:35 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Actually, that is not the Trump media spin crowd; it is the Russian poster who tries to take any opportunity, with any topic, and attempt to denigrate anything about Ukraine. That's just a consequence of throwing out a corrupt, pro-Russian autocrat, I guess...

:roll:



There is not and never was any “pro-Russian autocrat”. Yanukovich was far from such.
 
Spar
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:47 pm

anrec80 wrote:
This is not about security - this is about trust that the US government is able to keep data that is traditionally kept confidential such.

Your complaint is petty and without foundation; it is nothing other than whataboutism.

If you can't let go of this view any other way, then just accept that any time a nation's government comes unglued then other nations need to beware. That is the case, and it has been the case ever since the utterly unsuitable Donald Trump squeeked into office because of the weird American electoral college. Now things in the US are coming completely unglued and obviously other governments are taking this into account when dealing with the US.

The only nations that have anything resembling a trusting relationship with the Trump administration are essentially the enemies of the US: Putin's Russia. Duarte's Phillipines, Kim's North Korea, Erdogen's Turkey and MBS's Saudi Arabia and possibly a few other fascist leaning places such as Poland and Hungary.

You are obviously blissfully unaware of the damage Trump has done to US foreign relations.
 
alfa164
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:05 pm

Spar wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
This is not about security - this is about trust that the US government is able to keep data that is traditionally kept confidential such.

Your complaint is petty and without foundation; it is nothing other than whataboutism.

If you can't let go of this view any other way, then just accept that any time a nation's government comes unglued then other nations need to beware. That is the case, and it has been the case ever since the utterly unsuitable Donald Trump squeeked into office because of the weird American electoral college. Now things in the US are coming completely unglued and obviously other governments are taking this into account when dealing with the US. The only nations that have anything resembling a trusting relationship with the Trump administration are essentially the enemies of the US: Putin's Russia. Duarte's Phillipines, Kim's North Korea, Erdogen's Turkey and MBS's Saudi Arabia and possibly a few other fascist leaning places such as Poland and Hungary. You are obviously blissfully unaware of the damage Trump has done to US foreign relations.


...or blissfully gleeful, as one of Putin's propaganda proponents on A.net. There is nothing Putin and his merry band of internet-posters want more than America to suffer from damages foreign relations... along with dissent and division within the nation.
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casinterest
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:21 pm

The special envoy. Kurt Volker, to the Ukraine, has resigned. This is the guy that worked with Giuliani trying to contain him.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/27/politics ... index.html

The nothing burger keeps adding more and more meat.
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Spar
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:24 pm

alfa164 wrote:
...or blissfully gleeful, as one of Putin's propaganda proponents on A.net. There is nothing Putin and his merry band of internet-posters want more than America to suffer from damages foreign relations... along with dissent and division within the nation.

You are absolutely correct. I still had mham001 in my mind when I made that post.
 
wingman
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:41 am

casinterest wrote:
The special envoy. Kurt Volker, to the Ukraine, has resigned. This is the guy that worked with Giuliani trying to contain him.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/27/politics ... index.html

The nothing burger keeps adding more and more meat.


I imagine the dominoes will start falling at an increasing pace over the 7-10 days. Pompeo's testimony next week will be delicious. His options are to salvage whatever dignity and reputation he can or go down with Trump in a flaming fireball of destruction. If he admits to knowing about or facilitating dirt-digging on Biden Giuliani and Trump are finished. At that point the GOP pressure on Trump to resign will become deafening as they try to muster as many months as they can to find a new candidate for President. And I'll tell you what, Romney might be just the man to start the GOP's healing process and return from their 4 year sortie in to the utter insanity of Donald Trump. I think his immediate coming out in support of the impeachment process was calculated for just this purpose.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:10 am

wingman wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The special envoy. Kurt Volker, to the Ukraine, has resigned. This is the guy that worked with Giuliani trying to contain him.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/27/politics ... index.html

The nothing burger keeps adding more and more meat.


I imagine the dominoes will start falling at an increasing pace over the 7-10 days. Pompeo's testimony next week will be delicious. His options are to salvage whatever dignity and reputation he can or go down with Trump in a flaming fireball of destruction. If he admits to knowing about or facilitating dirt-digging on Biden Giuliani and Trump are finished. At that point the GOP pressure on Trump to resign will become deafening as they try to muster as many months as they can to find a new candidate for President. And I'll tell you what, Romney might be just the man to start the GOP's healing process and return from their 4 year sortie in to the utter insanity of Donald Trump. I think his immediate coming out in support of the impeachment process was calculated for just this purpose.


The GOP is too fractured to rally around Romney. The one thing the GOP has done is destroy the tent. However Romney is a known quantity.
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Spar
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:26 am

casinterest wrote:
The GOP is too fractured to rally around Romney. The one thing the GOP has done is destroy the tent. However Romney is a known quantity.

Actually Romney is a known quantity, and he is acceptable to all Republicans who aren't religious nutcases or true lower middle class culture of mostly lower mid America. There's a lot of them. Romney might open pandora's box, so to speak.

It would be something to behold!
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:34 am

windy95 wrote:
Another nothing burger with a side of full blown Trump Derangement Syndrome. This "whistleblower" document reads like the "Pee Pee" dossier. All of which was proven wrong by the release of actual call and backed by the Ukrainian President. The deep state along with the criminal liberal media will stop at nothing. Meanwhile actual video of Biden admitting to doing what Trump is being accused of is being ignored by the MSM and the Dems.



You may want to reconsider your jump the gun words about this lying cheating fool and his minions and the MSM evaluation. :eek:
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MSPNWA
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:35 am

This is how corrupt people act to trap their enemies. They fabricate a charge, bombard with investigation, and then advance to the necessary "obstruction" charge because the actual charge is known to be bogus. Rinse, cycle, repeat.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:39 am

MSPNWA wrote:
This is how corrupt people act to trap their enemies. They fabricate a charge, bombard with investigation, and then advance to the necessary "obstruction" charge because the actual charge is known to be bogus. Rinse, cycle, repeat.


You are speaking of trump of course, and you explained him perfectly, nice job. ;) ;)
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seb146
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:36 am

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I think it would be prudent for both House and Senate Intelligence Committees to review the actual transcript. From what the memo says, the call where the occupant of the White House asked the president of Ukraine to reopen the investigation against Biden did not have high security reasons to be put on that server.


Nonetheless - there are no signs of any law violations anywhere here.


Is that why there are impeachment inquiries underway?

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
When it is knows there is no reason for that transcript to be on a secure server other than obstruction, we should demand the contents of the server be reviewed by those same intelligence committees because how are we to trust this administration?

All this talk of a secure server and people defending it sounds awfully familiar......


This is not about security - this is about trust that the US government is able to keep data that is traditionally kept confidential such.


And knowing a routine conversation that allegedly shakes down a foreign leader stored on a server for only high classified information raises all sorts of red flags. At least it should.

I get there are redactions. No one is questioning that. But, for a simple "congratulations and, by the way, can you do me a solid" call, why would that be on a secure server?
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seb146
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:39 am

MSPNWA wrote:
This is how corrupt people act to trap their enemies. They fabricate a charge, bombard with investigation, and then advance to the necessary "obstruction" charge because the actual charge is known to be bogus. Rinse, cycle, repeat.


Is that why Republicans are JUST NOW screaming about Joe and Hunter breaking laws instead of investigating when Republicans had control of both houses of Congress from 2014 to 2018? Four years Republicans had to investigate them and it takes a whistle blower complaint to get them to notice "corrupt" Joe and Hunter. How many debates has he been in and Republicans are just now talking about it?
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alfa164
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:41 pm

seb146 wrote:
And knowing a routine conversation that allegedly shakes down a foreign leader stored on a server for only high classified information raises all sorts of red flags. At least it should. I get there are redactions. No one is questioning that. But, for a simple "congratulations and, by the way, can you do me a solid" call, why would that be on a secure server?


For the Trump defenders who have now gotten their excuses lined up talking points established, a quick read of the timeline from a credible journalist (i.e., not an A.net "keyboard authority") pretty much blows all their propaganda out of the water:

"This defense is weak, in part because the two central pieces of evidence against Trump are damning. One is an official, reconstructed transcript of the phone call. The other is a whistleblower complaint, written by someone in the U.S. intelligence community, that documents efforts by Trump and his lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, to enlist Ukraine’s help in investigating Trump’s domestic enemies. But there’s a lot more to the story. The full sequence of events—Trump’s gripes, Giuliani’s machinations, and the suspension of the aid—shows that the president is lying and that his motives were corrupt."


https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/09/ukraine-timeline-shows-trump-lying.html
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wingman
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:18 pm

seb146 wrote:

Is that why there are impeachment inquiries underway?



You have to understand anrec's frame of reference. To a Putin sycophant Trump's actions are SOP, hence the incomprehension as to why anyone would find the phone call and general outreach to Ukraine any indication of criminal corruption. In Moscow this is how they roll. Everywhere in the Motherland's orbit there is little to see except completely dysfunctional economies and staggering corruption.
 
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:41 pm

Spar wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The GOP is too fractured to rally around Romney. The one thing the GOP has done is destroy the tent. However Romney is a known quantity.

Actually Romney is a known quantity, and he is acceptable to all Republicans who aren't religious nutcases or true lower middle class culture of mostly lower mid America. There's a lot of them. Romney might open pandora's box, so to speak.

It would be something to behold!


I would be interesting, and we can see the battle currently unfolding at fox news where the news side is fighting with the opinion side .
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 7:22 pm

wingman wrote:
You have to understand anrec's frame of reference. To a Putin sycophant Trump's actions are SOP, hence the incomprehension as to why anyone would find the phone call and general outreach to Ukraine any indication of criminal corruption. In Moscow this is how they roll.


Not to mention his negativity towards all things Ukrainian. :sarcastic:
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:07 pm

scbriml wrote:
wingman wrote:
You have to understand anrec's frame of reference. To a Putin sycophant Trump's actions are SOP, hence the incomprehension as to why anyone would find the phone call and general outreach to Ukraine any indication of criminal corruption. In Moscow this is how they roll.


Not to mention his negativity towards all things Ukrainian. :sarcastic:


That's what some Russians are paid to do...

;)
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:11 pm

wingman wrote:

I imagine the dominoes will start falling at an increasing pace over the 7-10 days. Pompeo's testimony next week will be delicious. His options are to salvage whatever dignity and reputation he can or go down with Trump in a flaming fireball of destruction. If he admits to knowing about or facilitating dirt-digging on Biden Giuliani and Trump are finished.


It's not Trump's fault Joe Biden is running for President.
 
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:16 pm

This is nothing but a preemptive attack on Barr and Durham. What Democrats are accusing Trump of doing to Biden is exactly what Obama did to Trump. When the investigations are complete, the Democrats will say it s a total deflection and will try to use that to discredit the investigations.
 
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:38 pm

afcjets wrote:
wingman wrote:

I imagine the dominoes will start falling at an increasing pace over the 7-10 days. Pompeo's testimony next week will be delicious. His options are to salvage whatever dignity and reputation he can or go down with Trump in a flaming fireball of destruction. If he admits to knowing about or facilitating dirt-digging on Biden Giuliani and Trump are finished.


It's not Trump's fault Joe Biden is running for President.


I keep telling you guys, 2+2 does NOT = hamburgers. Egregious non sequitur.
 
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:42 pm

wingman wrote:
afcjets wrote:
wingman wrote:

I imagine the dominoes will start falling at an increasing pace over the 7-10 days. Pompeo's testimony next week will be delicious. His options are to salvage whatever dignity and reputation he can or go down with Trump in a flaming fireball of destruction. If he admits to knowing about or facilitating dirt-digging on Biden Giuliani and Trump are finished.


It's not Trump's fault Joe Biden is running for President.


I keep telling you guys, 2+2 does NOT = hamburgers. Egregious non sequitur.


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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:50 pm

New polls are suggesting a quickly changing landscape in public opinion regarding impeachment. The number from Republicans must be especially worrisome at a point prior to even the first testimony under oath taking place, much less actual discovery in documents and communications. If more bombshells explode in the next few weeks that prove a coordinated attempt at asking the Ukrainian government for help in finding dirt on Biden and family and/or a clear quid pro quo with the defense dollars withholding and/or an organized attempt to cover up the story, this polling will steamroll. If any one or two of those elements becomes a black and white consensus (outside of the 5th Avenue Face-Shooting Coalition of course), it's all over. I can see maybe 20-25 GOP Senators willing to sacrifice their eternal reputations, but enough to beat back a full impeachment under any damning new circumstances? We'll see.
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:08 pm

afcjets wrote:
This is nothing but a preemptive attack on Barr and Durham. What Democrats are accusing Trump of doing to Biden is exactly what Obama did to Trump. When the investigations are complete, the Democrats will say it s a total deflection and will try to use that to discredit the investigations.


Show us when Obama used a foreign government to dig up dirt on his political rivals? Keeping in mind that every time the occupant of the White House opens his mouth, he says something that makes him look bad to most of the country and Obama was not facing a tough reelection bid in 2016 since he could not run again.
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:11 pm

afcjets wrote:
wingman wrote:

I imagine the dominoes will start falling at an increasing pace over the 7-10 days. Pompeo's testimony next week will be delicious. His options are to salvage whatever dignity and reputation he can or go down with Trump in a flaming fireball of destruction. If he admits to knowing about or facilitating dirt-digging on Biden Giuliani and Trump are finished.


It's not Trump's fault Joe Biden is running for President.


But it is Trump's fault for holding back funds in order to blackmail a foreign leader into digging for dirt on his political opponent.

Or did you miss that part?
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:13 pm

There are three (in some cases up to five) candidates who are ahead of him in the polls. Biden is just one. I wonder if the others are even on his radar? I wonder if he went to other governments or even stuck with Putin for information on other Democrats? Or if he is just so angry and hateful of Obama for being that he is laser focused only on Joe Biden?
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:20 pm

You need to check out Trump's twitter feed. He's in full-on meltdown. :rotfl:
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:49 pm

bgm wrote:
You need to check out Trump's twitter feed. He's in full-on meltdown. :rotfl:


10+ retweets of Mark Levin going after Fox’s Ed Henry. Bizarro-world. Levin made several false claims about the powers of POTUS in his rebuttals - what happened to this guy? I remember when he was a staunch defender of Ted Cruz and declared himself a never-Trumper over the campaign’s dirty tactics against Cruz. What a bunch of hypocrites...
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:06 pm

bgm wrote:
afcjets wrote:

It's not Trump's fault Joe Biden is running for President.


But it is Trump's fault for holding back funds in order to blackmail a foreign leader into digging for dirt on his political opponent.

Or did you miss that part?


The part you obviously missed is that just because Joe Biden is a potential political opponent of Trump (he hasn't won the primary and it wasn't a slam dunk for him even had the media not been forced into covering it) does not mean Joe Biden is immune from being investigated for corruption. This is what draining the swamp looks like.
 
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:30 pm

afcjets wrote:
bgm wrote:
afcjets wrote:

It's not Trump's fault Joe Biden is running for President.


But it is Trump's fault for holding back funds in order to blackmail a foreign leader into digging for dirt on his political opponent.

Or did you miss that part?


The part you obviously missed is that just because Joe Biden is a potential political opponent of Trump (he hasn't won the primary and it wasn't a slam dunk for him even had the media not been forced into covering it) does not mean Joe Biden is immune from being investigated for corruption. This is what draining the swamp looks like.


But again, using foreign powers to harm your opponent is not legal. He didn't ask a domestic bureau to do it. He blackmailed a foreign power.

The fact you say Trump is draining the swamp is laughable at best. All he's doing is filling it with turd after turd after turd. Your toilet after a spicy vindaloo probably smells better.
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:08 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
This is how corrupt people act to trap their enemies. They fabricate a charge, bombard with investigation, and then advance to the necessary "obstruction" charge because the actual charge is known to be bogus. Rinse, cycle, repeat.


Fact: Donald Trump called the President of the Ukraine.
Fact: Donald Trump pressured the President of the Ukraine to investigate a political opponent

No fabricated charges or additional information needed. Quid pro quo or withheld military aid? Irrelevant. What we have is all that's needed.

Crime. Impeach.

How absolutely humiliating all of this is for Republicans who were swindled by a crook.
 
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:50 pm

bgm wrote:
afcjets wrote:
The part you obviously missed is that just because Joe Biden is a potential political opponent of Trump (he hasn't won the primary and it wasn't a slam dunk for him even had the media not been forced into covering it) does not mean Joe Biden is immune from being investigated for corruption. This is what draining the swamp looks like.


But again, using foreign powers to harm your opponent is not legal. He didn't ask a domestic bureau to do it. He blackmailed a foreign power.

Joe's political campaign is collateral damage. Joe blackmailed a foreign power by telling them if they didn't fire the prosecutor investigating his son within six hours they wouldn't get a billion dollars. It worked. All Trump did was give them the green light to continue investigating the corruption they were already doing on their own that Joe blackmailed them to stop. They were happy to do it.
 
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:00 pm

afcjets wrote:
bgm wrote:
afcjets wrote:
The part you obviously missed is that just because Joe Biden is a potential political opponent of Trump (he hasn't won the primary and it wasn't a slam dunk for him even had the media not been forced into covering it) does not mean Joe Biden is immune from being investigated for corruption. This is what draining the swamp looks like.


But again, using foreign powers to harm your opponent is not legal. He didn't ask a domestic bureau to do it. He blackmailed a foreign power.

Joe's political campaign is collateral damage. Joe blackmailed a foreign power by telling them if they didn't fire the prosecutor investigating his son within six hours they wouldn't get a billion dollars. It worked. All Trump did was give them the green light to continue investigating the corruption they were already doing on their own that Joe blackmailed them to stop. They were happy to do it.


Evidence please?

Oh, and also: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49871909
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:30 pm

I hear right wing pundits and MAGA fan boys mention Hunter Biden using Joe's name to get things so can we talk about Ivanka getting Chinese patents to make millions using daddy's name and position? How is that different? Why throw a huge fit over one but not the other?
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Re: Trump Repeatedly Pressed Ukraine’s President to Investigate Biden’s Son

Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:44 pm

Aww poor Lindsey Graham. He is so lost without John McCain.

https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/status ... 3678687232

LINDSEY GRAHAM: The whistleblower complaint is just hearsay.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But the whistleblower complaint is matched by the call record in numerous ways.

GRAHAM: Well, you’ve got an opinion, I've got an opinion.'
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