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Spar
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:06 pm

The ME and the economy would be the big news now. We probably would have already launched air strikes against Iran and oil would be over $100 with the Saudi oil fields ablaze. Also, the Taliban would be on the offensive after receiving weapons from Iran.

The Russians would know how good their S-400 is at shooting down F-35s.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Mon Sep 30, 2019 8:19 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It doesn’t, not an issue. Because a state is reliably in one party or other doesn’t eliminate its importance to the outcome.

So which one is it? Does every vote count or does it not? If it does, then you accept that the popular vote is a fair indicator and is not a result of CA (or NY or IL) electing the president. If not, then by default you accept that the outcome of a vote in a state is not important if it's always been a safe state. In other words, the margin of victory in a state like WV is unimportant, unlike in OH (meaning that WV is not important whereas OH is).

Following the money will tell you which states matter most. Fun fact: from the top 10, four (CA, TX, NY, IL) are safe states, two (FL, OH) are true swing states, and the other four (PA, GA, NC, MI) are leaning states.

From the bottom 10, only 1 is a true swing state (NH), 1 is a lean state (ME) and the rest (WY, VT, AK, ND, SD, DE, MT, RI) are safe states. Seems the vote in those 7 small states is not exactly worth as much as in FL and OH, for example.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
See Michigan and Wisconsin in 2016.

No one has ever called into question their swing status. Clinton took it for granted and assumed both were part of her blue wall, which is a different story, just like McCain narrowly lost IN and almost lost other reliable red states like MO, ND, and MT. But then again, it's also easy when polls tell you a different story.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
With Democratic control of the House, why hasn’t the Speaker put these up for a vote?

For the same reason that Republicans don't aggressively push ideas forth either: no popular support and/or knowledge that it may die in the Senate.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:21 pm

Your vote counts IN YOUR STATE. It’s about 50 different elections. Being in a safe state doesn’t mean your vote in that state doesn’t count. See MI and WI, both were thought to be safe Clinton states, Republicans saw otherwise. If we’re going to select the President by mobs voting, I’d rather it be fifty mobs than one.

GF
 
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seb146
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:35 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

California can elect their Governor they don't get to elect our president.


But you are happy with Ohio electing our president?


It doesn’t, not an issue. Because a state is reliably in one party or other doesn’t eliminate its importance to the outcome. See Michigan and Wisconsin in 2016.


It absolutely is an issue when someone suggests that California elects our president.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Riddle me this. The Democratic candidates have all endorsed a number of platform positions that are well left of HRC in 2016. Among them:

    Reparations to African-Americans for slavery
    Wealth taxes and increased income tax rates
    Free college tuition and write-offs of college debt
    Decriminalized unauthorized border crossings
    The Green New Deal

With Democratic control of the House, why hasn’t the Speaker put these up for a vote?

GF


None of those things will make it to the floor of the Senate. At this point, it is a waste of time and taxpayer dollars to debate and vote on these things.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Ken777
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:33 pm

The biggest IMO is that we would not have a total fool about International Relations. Trump is an embarrassment in his behavior towards our traditional friends while sucking up to strong men/dictators from Russia, Turkey, NK, the Philippines, etc. He is a real danger to NATO and has given Putin a free reign to cause problems in Europe.

His behavior towards the Ukraine is beyond belief (and might have been dictated by Putin) when Russia is still attacking the Ukraine. If Russia boosts its invasion efforts I guess Trump will go spend a week or two at one of his gold resorts.

Health care programs would also be improved. We don't need a stupid name like "Medicare For All" but we do need an American Health program that will eliminate cost shifting (which lowers costs for all) and we need programs that serve rural areas. For a good insight to this problem check this link out: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

We would also have an opportunity to address the cancer that is near lifetime college debt.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:51 pm

None will make it to the floor because Pelosi and the DNC is scared to death of campaigning on them next year.

GF
 
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seb146
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:24 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
None will make it to the floor because Pelosi and the DNC is scared to death of campaigning on them next year.

GF


Because Republicans have already poisoned the conversation. They want the United States to have nothing to do with trying to fix the climate or move off fossil fuel. Republicans have already framed the conversation to be about socialism and hatred of jobs and the wealthy. Progressive Democrats are not afraid to talk about green jobs and green alternatives. The party welcomes those conversations. Republicans do not want to hear about it.

We started talking about it under Obama but Republicans scoffed and though it was a stupid conversation to have. They would have continued this under Hillary and will continue stonewalling under the next Democratic president, instead of actually helping and legislating.
Last edited by seb146 on Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:24 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
What would America and the world look like if Hillary Clinton became the 45th President of the United States in the 2016 Presidential Election.


She, legitimately, is.

An arcane system designed to preserve white supremacy does not legitimately overrule the democratic will of the American people just because it happens to be written down on a special piece of parchment.
 
Ken777
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:52 am

BerenErchamion wrote:
An arcane system designed to preserve white supremacy does not legitimately overrule the democratic will of the American people just because it happens to be written down on a special piece of parchment.


We were able to get the Constitution cleansed a bit by ending Slavery and, eventually, addressing Women Suffrage. Now the Electoral College remains the last disgrace the needs to be cleansed. There is no way that the Founding Fathers could have anticipated one Presidential Candidate winning the Election by close to 3,000,000 votes and not becoming President. It is a clear indication that the voters were far smarter than the Electoral College approach.
 
BerenErchamion
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:57 am

Ken777 wrote:
BerenErchamion wrote:
An arcane system designed to preserve white supremacy does not legitimately overrule the democratic will of the American people just because it happens to be written down on a special piece of parchment.


We were able to get the Constitution cleansed a bit by ending Slavery and, eventually, addressing Women Suffrage. Now the Electoral College remains the last disgrace the needs to be cleansed. There is no way that the Founding Fathers could have anticipated one Presidential Candidate winning the Election by close to 3,000,000 votes and not becoming President. It is a clear indication that the voters were far smarter than the Electoral College approach.


Oh, it worked exactly as designed this time. From the start it was always about preserving white supremacy, and that's exactly what happened this time around.

It hasn't always worked, but this time it did.
 
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DL717
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:18 am

Not one bit of difference. GOP still would have both the House and Senate. She’s corrupt as hell.
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DL717
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:20 am

Ken777 wrote:
BerenErchamion wrote:
An arcane system designed to preserve white supremacy does not legitimately overrule the democratic will of the American people just because it happens to be written down on a special piece of parchment.


We were able to get the Constitution cleansed a bit by ending Slavery and, eventually, addressing Women Suffrage. Now the Electoral College remains the last disgrace the needs to be cleansed. There is no way that the Founding Fathers could have anticipated one Presidential Candidate winning the Election by close to 3,000,000 votes and not becoming President. It is a clear indication that the voters were far smarter than the Electoral College approach.


They absolutely did. The electoral college ensures that the balance of the Presidency remains across all states, not a select few.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:22 am

DL717 wrote:
Not one bit of difference. GOP still would have both the House and Senate. She’s corrupt as hell.



No question, I voted for her holding my nose, because I knew this man is even more corrupt and that is becoming more and more apparent.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
WIederling
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:53 am

seb146 wrote:
It absolutely is an issue when someone suggests that California elects our president.

The rules are clear and it is not a direct majority system.

The candidates game the system.

States with "clear" leanings get few if any campaign attention.
( majority party does not feel the need and the minority side sees no leverage.
Changes when the voters turn away from feeling "left alone". )

But calling the voting design democratic is a stretch imho.
Stretched beyond breaking via methodology like negative campaigning
and the privately and clandestinely addressing of voter for influencing
as done by Cambridge Analytics and similar ilk.
( the private out of public view part is the most offensive as it allows
to send competing/countering messaging to different groups.)

Here the gaming potential of this system comes into play
as it allows decisive changes in outcome from small directed efforts.
Manipulation is easier than in a cumulative vote environment.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:51 pm

DL717 wrote:
They absolutely did. The electoral college ensures that the balance of the Presidency remains across all states, not a select few.

DO tell...because as far as I'm concerned, many states are ignored and it's only a select few that are important, as this map shows (from the 2016 presidential election). Of the total of 399 official campaign events, 57% were held in 4 states, and 79% (or 315 of the 399 events) were held in just 8 (IA, MI, NH, VA, OH, PA, NC, and FL).

Image

When was the last time a Kansan's vote was seriously contested? A Wyomingite's vote? What about a Hawaiian's vote? A Vermonter's vote?

All states? Give me a break.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
extender
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:11 pm

And Hillary still lost, because Kansas, Wyoming and Vermont's votes add up.
 
SanDiegoLover
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:14 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
What would America and the world look like if Hillary Clinton became the 45th President of the United States in the 2016 Presidential Election. How would the course of history change.


If I could have an alternate timeline machine, I’d prefer to see what would have happened if Gore would have fought tooth and nail in the courts to become President, as I’m virtually certain the US wouldn’t have invaded Iraq, but instead would have spent billions of $$$ to get the USA off of fossil fuels so the USA wouldn’t be beholdened to the Middle East.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:03 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
What would America and the world look like if Hillary Clinton became the 45th President of the United States in the 2016 Presidential Election. How would the course of history change.


If I could have an alternate timeline machine, I’d prefer to see what would have happened if Gore would have fought tooth and nail in the courts to become President, as I’m virtually certain the US wouldn’t have invaded Iraq, but instead would have spent billions of $$$ to get the USA off of fossil fuels so the USA wouldn’t be beholdened to the Middle East.


Funny story, we are not beholding to ME oil via fracking. Is this news to you? If you think money spent on ME wars would have resulted in a breakthrough eliminating fossil fuels, I have a bridge for sale.

GF
 
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seb146
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:57 pm

Another thing if Hillary were elected, there would have been a shorter report on Russian interference. Maybe just a few pages if Republicans had put up a decent candidate.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
extender
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:20 pm

seb146 wrote:
Another thing if Hillary were elected, there would have been a shorter report on Russian interference. Maybe just a few pages if Republicans had put up a decent candidate.


Of course, she did sell 20% of our uranium stocks to them.
 
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seb146
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Re: Alternate History of Hillary Clinton being President

Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:27 pm

extender wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Another thing if Hillary were elected, there would have been a shorter report on Russian interference. Maybe just a few pages if Republicans had put up a decent candidate.


Of course, she did sell 20% of our uranium stocks to them.


You mean Uranium One which has been debunked by thousands of sources from all over the world and all over the political spectrum?

I was actually talking about if Republicans had put up a decent candidate that does not have daddy issues with Putin. Like Jon Huntsmann or Marco Rubio or Nikki Haley. Someone who knows about international relations and diplomacy.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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