frmrCapCadet
Topic Author
Posts: 3129
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:47 pm

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/beyond-m ... 20368.html

It is interesting that German retailers can't get enough of this product from current big name producers. Other producers are crowding into the field. I think the same thing will be happening in the US within a year. For certain medical reasons I eat a lot of meat, even though my preference is high carbs, high protein. I am not at all tempted to eat vegan, but..... I am offended that the meat/egg/dairy industry has done so little to improve its treatment of animals, the ethics of eating those foods is compromising to my values. In addition the whole food industry seems to have a lack of concern with basic sanitation. Vegetable growers had to be forced to provide toilets and hand washing facilities in lettuce fields and for other produce usually eaten raw. Most hamburger has significant amounts of fecal bacteria in it. Chickens must be assumed to be contaminated though-out their entire carcass. I sat through, at a trade show, of the disgust senior FDA (food and drug admin) had for the DOA Department of Agriculture and their laxity allowing, even encouraging unacceptable sanitation. I handle meats appropriately so they are safe to eat.

I kind of knew, but 60% of beef production is for hamburger. This makes the beef industry really vulnerable to plant based 'meat'. I for one, will switch over as soon as plant based hamburger is within 20% of the cost of the real thing. Breaded chicken fillets, sausages, and deli meats are likely to become competitive within months after that. Good steaks, and we eat a fair amount of them, are likely to become more expensive after the hamburger market is lost. The aviation impact of all of this is that meat replacement may be way more green than flying less.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17570
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:04 pm

It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:47 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.


Not for Alcohol, no. For a start, that has been tried before. Considering the already built in reverence for prohibition-busters and the shear pervasiveness of alcoholic products, it is a complete non-starter. About 15% of people smoke tobacco. Virtually everyone drinks at some level.

As for Meat, could be. As replacement products come online, improve and cost goes down, this undoubtedly will gain steam. These products are also less expensive to produce and the environmental/real estate benefits of not using up square mileage measurable in percentages of habitable land are undeniable.

As well, even the Meat industry itself may not be as opposed as we think. The big industrial names will do what they can to fight it. But the small farms and ranches they contract out to will be all too happy to bail. These third party suppliers are, generally speaking, barely getting by as it now is. And the major players they work for --who have also conveniently made real competition impossible-- squeeze them harder every year. If you want a real eye-opener, google something along the lines of 'What does it take to start a Cattle Business.'

I do not suppose a meat substitute business would be structured much differently. Eventually, at any rate. But at least the capital costs of doing business aren't nearly as expensive as ranching now is.

One likely and not obvious casualty though. . . Veterinary Science. Agriculture currently underwrites most of that profession. It is not difficult to imagine that education and professional entry to that field will become substantially more difficult as this progresses. . .
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 20692
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:05 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.


I don't think so. Studies have shown benefits to eating some type of meat in moderation. All beef, all the time is bad. I have tried the latest meatless meat at Del Taco and it is okay. Tastes like Taco Bell ground beef. I am not a fan but it is not as bad as other meatless products I have tried in the past.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17570
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:06 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.


Not for Alcohol, no. For a start, that has been tried before. Considering the already built in reverence for prohibition-busters and the shear pervasiveness of alcoholic products, it is a complete non-starter. About 15% of people smoke tobacco. Virtually everyone drinks at some level.

I don't mean prohibition. I think there's a confluence of 1) younger people drinking less and 2) the increasing evidence that alcohol is more and more detrimental to one's health.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17570
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:16 pm

seb146 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.


I don't think so. Studies have shown benefits to eating some type of meat in moderation. All beef, all the time is bad. I have tried the latest meatless meat at Del Taco and it is okay. Tastes like Taco Bell ground beef. I am not a fan but it is not as bad as other meatless products I have tried in the past.

Yah "moderation" usually means 75% less than Americans are eating/drinking now, and in the case of drinking, moderate drinking is still really bad for one's health
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 20692
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:23 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.


I don't think so. Studies have shown benefits to eating some type of meat in moderation. All beef, all the time is bad. I have tried the latest meatless meat at Del Taco and it is okay. Tastes like Taco Bell ground beef. I am not a fan but it is not as bad as other meatless products I have tried in the past.

Yah "moderation" usually means 75% less than Americans are eating/drinking now, and in the case of drinking, moderate drinking is still really bad for one's health


Those studies also include exercise. More than just moving one's thumbs around a TV remote....
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
ER757
Posts: 3493
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:16 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:25 pm

Haven't tried Beyond yet, but have had a couple Impossible burgers. They weren't bad, I'd get one again, but they didn't really taste like beef to me either. Would like to try Beyond as I know it's made of different ingredients. At present, the price at the local supermarkets is just prohibitively high so until there is some economy of scale which brings it down in price, I will defer. I only have beef maybe once or twice a month and have been going with ground turkey to make my burgers and sloppy joes in the past couple years
 
User avatar
zkojq
Posts: 3879
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:23 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.


Not for Alcohol, no. For a start, that has been tried before. Considering the already built in reverence for prohibition-busters and the shear pervasiveness of alcoholic products, it is a complete non-starter. About 15% of people smoke tobacco. Virtually everyone drinks at some level.

I don't mean prohibition. I think there's a confluence of 1) younger people drinking less and 2) the increasing evidence that alcohol is more and more detrimental to one's health.


I agree with you on this. I remember about 15 years ago one of my teachers suggesting it and I thought the notion was completely nonsensical but I'm becoming more and more convinced over the past few years. In the case of alcohol though it will take a longer time thanks to the drinks industry spending tens of billions on advertising and lobbying - doing their absolute best to normalise the romanticise the behaviour.

Unfortunately in the case of meat it's going to create a lot of unemployment and destroy an extraordinary amount of value in rural areas.
First to fly the 787-9
 
frmrCapCadet
Topic Author
Posts: 3129
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:32 pm

My wife's mom grew up on the large (for that era) family ranch. Shortly after WWII the patriarch realized that merely being big was not big enough - so he switched his energy into the family owned bank. Other family members ran various dairy farms. They all had to subsidize them with side jobs. More recently, think 70s and 80s we lived in rural areas. No one could create decent earnings selling beef cows. We did have a successful and large auction market serving much of Washington and Oregon. There was also one quite large wholesaler butcher who provided certain services in turning cows into beef. He had the misfortune of buy some Canadian meat partially broken down in Oregon, he further broke it down, and it turned out involving him in the only documented case of mad cow contaminated beef in the US. The business survived another ten years, closed now. Point of all of this is that meat is so centralized that producers at the bottom, whether in chickens, pigs, or cows have had their margins cut to the bone, and maybe deeper.

That all is a way of life we now see as heroic. It also involved a lot of drudgery and danger. My mother-in-law until the day she died would have been happy to go back to ranching - she was the oldest of five, and loved working as a child and all of the things ranching involved. Those days, and they were kind of heroic are over. Done. And only to be remembered. I do.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17570
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:00 pm

zkojq wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Not for Alcohol, no. For a start, that has been tried before. Considering the already built in reverence for prohibition-busters and the shear pervasiveness of alcoholic products, it is a complete non-starter. About 15% of people smoke tobacco. Virtually everyone drinks at some level.

I don't mean prohibition. I think there's a confluence of 1) younger people drinking less and 2) the increasing evidence that alcohol is more and more detrimental to one's health.


I agree with you on this. I remember about 15 years ago one of my teachers suggesting it and I thought the notion was completely nonsensical but I'm becoming more and more convinced over the past few years. In the case of alcohol though it will take a longer time thanks to the drinks industry spending tens of billions on advertising and lobbying - doing their absolute best to normalise the romanticise the behaviour.

Unfortunately in the case of meat it's going to create a lot of unemployment and destroy an extraordinary amount of value in rural areas.

Exactly—imagine where we’d be without the enormous industry lobbying and product placement, and I don’t think it’s that far fetched to imagine a time where alcohol advertising is wound down like tobacco.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11834
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Sun Oct 06, 2019 8:39 pm

In France TV ads for alcohol are banned since 1991. I don't know if that has been really effective.

With meat the problem is very different though, the consequences are not the same at all. Alcohol production isn't problematic, while meat production is. Some practices might get banned, but I don't see production of quality meat done right disappearing. It would still mean only a fraction of today's production remain.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:40 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.


Not for Alcohol, no. For a start, that has been tried before. Considering the already built in reverence for prohibition-busters and the shear pervasiveness of alcoholic products, it is a complete non-starter. About 15% of people smoke tobacco. Virtually everyone drinks at some level.

As for Meat, could be. As replacement products come online, improve and cost goes down, this undoubtedly will gain steam. These products are also less expensive to produce and the environmental/real estate benefits of not using up square mileage measurable in percentages of habitable land are undeniable.


So wait. The environmental solution to the morality of eating animals is to convert current uninhabitable land to habitat land, presumably for polluting humans? Makes sense.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10865
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:06 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I for one, will switch over as soon as plant based hamburger is within 20% of the cost of the real thing.


Fun fact: VAT on those burgers is 19% here, while beef is just 7% tax. Common missreporting of "meat tax", it isn't extra tax, just removing the lowered VAT status of meat.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10865
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:08 pm

DL717 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.


Not for Alcohol, no. For a start, that has been tried before. Considering the already built in reverence for prohibition-busters and the shear pervasiveness of alcoholic products, it is a complete non-starter. About 15% of people smoke tobacco. Virtually everyone drinks at some level.

As for Meat, could be. As replacement products come online, improve and cost goes down, this undoubtedly will gain steam. These products are also less expensive to produce and the environmental/real estate benefits of not using up square mileage measurable in percentages of habitable land are undeniable.


So wait. The environmental solution to the morality of eating animals is to convert current uninhabitable land to habitat land, presumably for polluting humans? Makes sense.


Farmland is habitable land.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12240
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:20 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.


Near the tipping point you must be joking. The numbers of vegans although very loud are still tiny compared to the numbers of meat eaters.

And there are still close to 40m smokers in the US.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9252
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:26 pm

Just had a hamburger for lunch. Not sure that meat replacement will ever take over entirely, but it will increase in usage if the costs come down and the taste is there.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12240
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:28 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
DL717 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Not for Alcohol, no. For a start, that has been tried before. Considering the already built in reverence for prohibition-busters and the shear pervasiveness of alcoholic products, it is a complete non-starter. About 15% of people smoke tobacco. Virtually everyone drinks at some level.

As for Meat, could be. As replacement products come online, improve and cost goes down, this undoubtedly will gain steam. These products are also less expensive to produce and the environmental/real estate benefits of not using up square mileage measurable in percentages of habitable land are undeniable.


So wait. The environmental solution to the morality of eating animals is to convert current uninhabitable land to habitat land, presumably for polluting humans? Makes sense.


Farmland is habitable land.

Best regards
Thomas


Really, pull your head out of your butt Tommy, try making a high country sheep farm in NZ’s South Island habitable for humans, or how about the outback farms in Australia, not really fit for human habitation except for the farmers.

This topic is also very US centric, farming in other counties is still a family business and not corporatised. Most dairy farmers in Norway have herds less than 50 head.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:31 pm

I get my beef directly from a farmer I know. Happens to also be an engineer. I implore everyone to buy directly from farmers/ranchers and bypass the normal supply chain that puts meat in the big box stores. While I happen to believe that the general perception of the meat packing industry is a bit overblown, I rest easy knowing where my meat was raised, who sired it, what it ate, the antibiotics and vaccines it received and how it was butchered (plus getting the choice on how they do the cuts is a bonus!).

The common excuse is that it's a "huge" upfront cost. But you're paying ground beef prices for all the beef you're getting. For less than the cost of an iphone you can get half a steer - roughly 200lbs of meat (about 50-60% ground beef the rest steaks and other desirable cuts and roasts). Only other hurdle then is storage. A simple chest freezer is rather inexpensive, and the combined cost of a chest freezer + meat is still beneath the cost of an iPhone. That meat will feed a family of 5 twice-three times a week for a whole year.

As for the actual farming/ranching side of things... Very few people just farm/ranch anymore. (As I noted the farmer I get my beef from is also an engineer) Those who do are managing massive operations or their family has owned the property for quite some time. Doesn't matter if its beef / wheat / corn the margins are razor thin. Doesn't even cover the mortgage payment if you were to buy the land and only put 30% down. (not even close actually).

The thing is, we need the big companies to feed the population we currently have. The efficiency they have due to their largescale operations is important. They're able to reinvest and improve yields. The easiest way to see this is to simply look at the cost of organic produce at your supermarket compared to the cost of mass produced produce.

casinterest wrote:
Just had a hamburger for lunch. Not sure that meat replacement will ever take over entirely, but it will increase in usage if the costs come down and the taste is there.


As with everything, it comes down dollars and cents. $$$ if its cheaper they'll buy it.

Burger King claims to have a meatless patty that tastes like an actual whopper. We'll know pretty quick if its successful or not.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:36 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
This topic is also very US centric, farming in other counties is still a family business and not corporatised. Most dairy farmers in Norway have herds less than 50 head.


I don't think its as bad as people are describing. There are many many many family farms in the US still. Over half of my home state is privately owned small farms. The rest are mostly privately owned but leased land to agriculture "growers/cutters" who pay the farm 1/3rd the profit for land use. Pretty sweet deal for the landowner as they don't do any work. And when you factor labor that's about what they'd get out of it anyways if they did it themselves.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9252
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:36 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
I get my beef directly from a farmer I know. Happens to also be an engineer. I implore everyone to buy directly from farmers/ranchers and bypass the normal supply chain that puts meat in the big box stores. While I happen to believe that the general perception of the meat packing industry is a bit overblown, I rest easy knowing where my meat was raised, who sired it, what it ate, the antibiotics and vaccines it received and how it was butchered (plus getting the choice on how they do the cuts is a bonus!).

The common excuse is that it's a "huge" upfront cost. But you're paying ground beef prices for all the beef you're getting. For less than the cost of an iphone you can get half a steer - roughly 200lbs of meat (about 50-60% ground beef the rest steaks and other desirable cuts and roasts). Only other hurdle then is storage. A simple chest freezer is rather inexpensive, and the combined cost of a chest freezer + meat is still beneath the cost of an iPhone. That meat will feed a family of 5 twice-three times a week for a whole year.

As for the actual farming/ranching side of things... Very few people just farm/ranch anymore. (As I noted the farmer I get my beef from is also an engineer) Those who do are managing massive operations or their family has owned the property for quite some time. Doesn't matter if its beef / wheat / corn the margins are razor thin. Doesn't even cover the mortgage payment if you were to buy the land and only put 30% down. (not even close actually).

The thing is, we need the big companies to feed the population we currently have. The efficiency they have due to their largescale operations is important. They're able to reinvest and improve yields. The easiest way to see this is to simply look at the cost of organic produce at your supermarket compared to the cost of mass produced produce.

casinterest wrote:
Just had a hamburger for lunch. Not sure that meat replacement will ever take over entirely, but it will increase in usage if the costs come down and the taste is there.


As with everything, it comes down dollars and cents. $$$ if its cheaper they'll buy it.

Burger King claims to have a meatless patty that tastes like an actual whopper. We'll know pretty quick if its successful or not.



How much per pound does your farmer/Engineer charge?
I just have the issues that we have taken 2 pretty large power outages this year in our neighborhood. a chest freezer can survive several days, but it is a storage thing as well.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
falstaff
Posts: 5735
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:32 pm

I hope I am long dead before we can't have meat and alcohol anymore.

Sure you could avoid that stuff and live longer, but why bother? You can live to be really old, but you'll still die at some point and you should enjoy yourself while you are here.

How good for you are these meatless meats on the long term? Whatever it is is obviously highly processed and how good can that actually be. Humans have been farming and eating animals since the dawn of time. It's ludicrous to think people would stop something that has been going on that long.

Being worried about the environmental impact of what you eat is a first world luxury and at the moment only a tiny fraction of people care. The very last thing I think about when eating is environmental impact and the reality is most people feel the same. The argument that young people care about this issue more is partially true. Sure young people may be the ones who care, but how many. I am a high school teacher and out of 1000 students here we may have six students who care the about environmental impact of beef while the other 994 just continue eat their cheeseburgers. One particular person who cares about this stuff may have a friends who also care about this stuff, so in their head "everyone" must be into it. But as a person who works with hundreds of young people every year I can tell you most young people could care less about this issue.

I have often wondered when the greens will get behind alcohol prohibition. Not because of health, but because of all the CO2 produced when alcoholic beverages are fermented.

Vegans annoy me. Why? I have met many who eat that way for political/environmental reasons. I prefer to keep politics out of my food. Those I usually run into are preachy and annoying.. It's like they are trying to convert me to some kind of religion. Too many vegans want to make non meats into things like meat. If being vegan is so great why do you need to make look like something it isn't? Why bother making meatless hamburgers and chicken nuggets? If going meatless was so fantastic you shouldn't need to trick yourself into it.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:31 pm

casinterest wrote:


How much per pound does your farmer/Engineer charge?
I just have the issues that we have taken 2 pretty large power outages this year in our neighborhood. a chest freezer can survive several days, but it is a storage thing as well.


He charges market rates based on the hanging weight of the steer. Generally speaking, per pound, its less than the cost of ground beef (which it should since we're talking about an unprocessed carcass). Then you throw in processing which, depending on how you opt to process your meat, can vary somewhat. But in general processing runs about $1.25 - $1.50 per pound (IIRC). For the last steer we got, we received just over 200 lbs of meat and I paid a touch over 800 dollars in total. That works out to just over 4 dollars per pound of meat. Half of which was ground beef which I lost money on, the other half was steaks, where I came out ahead. I opt for 85/15 leanness.


Finally found the article I was pretty sure I saw last week. Not sure why it was so hard to find again, it's only a week old. Anyways, from the nytimes: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/30/heal ... ancer.html

Public health officials for years have urged Americans to limit consumption of red meat and processed meats because of concerns that these foods are linked to heart disease, cancer and other ills.

But on Monday, in a remarkable turnabout, an international collaboration of researchers produced a series of analyses concluding that the advice, a bedrock of almost all dietary guidelines, is not backed by good scientific evidence.

If there are health benefits from eating less beef and pork, they are small, the researchers concluded. Indeed, the advantages are so faint that they can be discerned only when looking at large populations, the scientists said, and are not sufficient to tell individuals to change their meat-eating habits.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9252
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:05 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


How much per pound does your farmer/Engineer charge?
I just have the issues that we have taken 2 pretty large power outages this year in our neighborhood. a chest freezer can survive several days, but it is a storage thing as well.


He charges market rates based on the hanging weight of the steer. Generally speaking, per pound, its less than the cost of ground beef (which it should since we're talking about an unprocessed carcass). Then you throw in processing which, depending on how you opt to process your meat, can vary somewhat. But in general processing runs about $1.25 - $1.50 per pound (IIRC). For the last steer we got, we received just over 200 lbs of meat and I paid a touch over 800 dollars in total. That works out to just over 4 dollars per pound of meat. Half of which was ground beef which I lost money on, the other half was steaks, where I came out ahead. I opt for 85/15 leanness.


Finally found the article I was pretty sure I saw last week. Not sure why it was so hard to find again, it's only a week old. Anyways, from the nytimes: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/30/heal ... ancer.html

Public health officials for years have urged Americans to limit consumption of red meat and processed meats because of concerns that these foods are linked to heart disease, cancer and other ills.

But on Monday, in a remarkable turnabout, an international collaboration of researchers produced a series of analyses concluding that the advice, a bedrock of almost all dietary guidelines, is not backed by good scientific evidence.

If there are health benefits from eating less beef and pork, they are small, the researchers concluded. Indeed, the advantages are so faint that they can be discerned only when looking at large populations, the scientists said, and are not sufficient to tell individuals to change their meat-eating habits.


4 dollars a pound isn't bad. The steaks and big cuts definitely win the cost battle for you.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1732
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:15 am

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

So wait. The environmental solution to the morality of eating animals is to convert current uninhabitable land to habitat land, presumably for polluting humans? Makes sense.


Farmland is habitable land.

Best regards
Thomas


Really, pull your head out of your butt Tommy, try making a high country sheep farm in NZ’s South Island habitable for humans, or how about the outback farms in Australia, not really fit for human habitation except for the farmers.

This topic is also very US centric, farming in other counties is still a family business and not corporatised. Most dairy farmers in Norway have herds less than 50 head.


Still trying to figure out how more space being used for humans instead of livestock is being environmentally friendly.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 10865
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:06 am

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

So wait. The environmental solution to the morality of eating animals is to convert current uninhabitable land to habitat land, presumably for polluting humans? Makes sense.


Farmland is habitable land.

Best regards
Thomas


Really, pull your head out of your butt Tommy, try making a high country sheep farm in NZ’s South Island habitable for humans, or how about the outback farms in Australia, not really fit for human habitation except for the farmers. .


high country sheep farms in NZ’s South Island and the Australias Outback are already habitable land, otherwise it wouldn´t be inhabited. Habitable land is where we can live, farm or keep livestock on. Inhabltable land is barren, has no vegetation to speak of, or is pure rock, deserts or a dry salt flat.

DL717 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Farmland is habitable land.

Best regards
Thomas


Really, pull your head out of your butt Tommy, try making a high country sheep farm in NZ’s South Island habitable for humans, or how about the outback farms in Australia, not really fit for human habitation except for the farmers.

This topic is also very US centric, farming in other counties is still a family business and not corporatised. Most dairy farmers in Norway have herds less than 50 head.


Still trying to figure out how more space being used for humans instead of livestock is being environmentally friendly.


Having livestock there is the land being used by humans..... if you just remove the livestock and let it grow wild, you get a jungle at some point and it is still habitable land. Now, DarkSnowyNight mentioned "real estate" benefits, but that doesn´t need to mean "seal it with concrete and high rises", you can also build a garden city (popular ideas before everyone had cars) or something "Venus Project" like, and you can place people there to life and still have environmental benefits. .... or you let it go wild, and it is more obviously a benefit.

falstaff wrote:
I have often wondered when the greens will get behind alcohol prohibition. Not because of health, but because of all the CO2 produced when alcoholic beverages are fermented.


Ah... the deluded fantasies about greens. Alcoholic beverage production is CO2 neutral, at least as far as fermenting is concerned. And hence "the Greens", as if there was such a homogeneous group, don´t have any more problem with it than with using wood pallets for heating.

It's like they are trying to convert me to some kind of religion.


I imagine you have no comment at all for them, if your friend at the table orders freshly clubbed baby seal steak for dinner. Or fresh cat and dog. Or a nice little Gorilla steak. ......

Guess what, the meat Taliban, you know, the "my kind of meat is fine, but yours is disgusting" crowd, have made that illegal almost everywhere, in many places punishable by prison time. Come back complaining when "the greens" put laws to a vote that put you in prison for eating a T-Bone steak.

Too many vegans want to make non meats into things like meat. If being vegan is so great why do you need to make look like something it isn't? Why bother making meatless hamburgers and chicken nuggets? If going meatless was so fantastic you shouldn't need to trick yourself into it.


I can like the texture of meat and still not want the whole meat industry to exist in the same sense i can like sex and not just go and get some without consent.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11834
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:25 am

Don't many Indians have a vegetarian diet already ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3019
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:08 am

My own observation, I would not mind trying this meat substitute, but they need to stop marketing it as "meat". It needs to find its own place in the market, not just hitch onto the reputation of another product.
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:56 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:


How much per pound does your farmer/Engineer charge?
I just have the issues that we have taken 2 pretty large power outages this year in our neighborhood. a chest freezer can survive several days, but it is a storage thing as well.


He charges market rates based on the hanging weight of the steer. Generally speaking, per pound, its less than the cost of ground beef (which it should since we're talking about an unprocessed carcass). Then you throw in processing which, depending on how you opt to process your meat, can vary somewhat. But in general processing runs about $1.25 - $1.50 per pound (IIRC). For the last steer we got, we received just over 200 lbs of meat and I paid a touch over 800 dollars in total. That works out to just over 4 dollars per pound of meat. Half of which was ground beef which I lost money on, the other half was steaks, where I came out ahead. I opt for 85/15 leanness.


Finally found the article I was pretty sure I saw last week. Not sure why it was so hard to find again, it's only a week old. Anyways, from the nytimes: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/30/heal ... ancer.html

Public health officials for years have urged Americans to limit consumption of red meat and processed meats because of concerns that these foods are linked to heart disease, cancer and other ills.

But on Monday, in a remarkable turnabout, an international collaboration of researchers produced a series of analyses concluding that the advice, a bedrock of almost all dietary guidelines, is not backed by good scientific evidence.

If there are health benefits from eating less beef and pork, they are small, the researchers concluded. Indeed, the advantages are so faint that they can be discerned only when looking at large populations, the scientists said, and are not sufficient to tell individuals to change their meat-eating habits.


4 dollars a pound isn't bad. The steaks and big cuts definitely win the cost battle for you.


Definitely. Think of it as basically buying cattle futures. (In truth, that's partially what drives the cost of the beef you're buying anyways..) You're gambling that the price you're paying per pound on the day you buy, will be cheaper than the long term prospects of buying the beef throughout the year. What ultimately wins you the battle is getting the better cuts at the same low cost. Otherwise, if you were, for example, grind 100% of the beef you just bought, you'd end up taking a loss.

Aesma wrote:
Don't many Indians have a vegetarian diet already ?


Depends on the ethnic region. I have work connections with people from two different regions, one of whom I would characterize as a close friend (he's from the Punjab region). The one who is a close friend is a vegetarian. When we go out for lunch or dinner he actually just tells the wait staff that he is allergic to meat. The first time he did it I had a puzzled look, then when we were walking away I laughed and asked him why he did that. He says it's just easier to tell people you're allergic to something than it is to explain why you choose not to eat meat. In all the times I've been with him, not once has anyone questioned the validity of it.

Basically breaks down based on the population of hindus. East and south east India eat meat, north west India does not.
 
frmrCapCadet
Topic Author
Posts: 3129
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:32 pm

Lots of dietary room for some beef and a lot of plant based hamburger. Everyone can do their own thing. Only a few people have a problem with that. Besides I like flying more than my source of 'hamburger'.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:17 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Lots of dietary room for some beef and a lot of plant based hamburger. Everyone can do their own thing. Only a few people have a problem with that. Besides I like flying more than my source of 'hamburger'.


Ironically you'd have to take that up with our vegetarian friends in India first. India has the largest herd of cattle, accounting for 1/3rd of all cattle in the world. The EU and the USA have roughly the same cattle herd sizes, about 90 million head each. Brazilians are apparently the biggest consumers of beef each year.
 
frmrCapCadet
Topic Author
Posts: 3129
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:27 pm

It is dismaying that India has banned all beef eating in the country (some of the ancient literature speaks of high class people enjoying their cow meat!). This has been used to persecute Muslims in the country. Nor has India come up with a plan for birth control for those cows. Of course the US has piously banned horse and dog meat consumption for similarly neo-religious reasons. Go figure. There is some evidence that food taboos hook into the same parts of the brain as religion, and via that disgust responses. Me? I got a religion and don't need pro or anti particular foods for it.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17570
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:06 am

Kiwirob wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.


Near the tipping point you must be joking. The numbers of vegans although very loud are still tiny compared to the numbers of meat eaters.

And there are still close to 40m smokers in the US.

Who said anything about vegans?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 7736
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:50 am

Came across this podcast a few weeks ago.

http://freakonomics.com/podcast/meat-rebroadcast/

It was worth the 50-odd minutes.

As for me, I enjoy a wide-ranging diet, and have eaten some meat substitutes, though I haven't tried anything from Beyond Meat yet.

I would not presume to tell anyone what they could or could not eat.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
Unless it's expressly prohibited, it's allowed.
You are not entitled to a public safe space.
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12240
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:35 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
It feels like we're near a tipping point. I wouldn't be surprised if meat, and alcohol--for similar health reasons--are treated like tobacco in a generation and 'frowned upon' like cigarette smoking. I've always thought 99% of us would be vegetarian overnight if we had to kill our own food, but between the treatment of animals, the carbon footprint, and pretty questionable health benefits of meat, it doesn't have a lot going for it.


Near the tipping point you must be joking. The numbers of vegans although very loud are still tiny compared to the numbers of meat eaters.

And there are still close to 40m smokers in the US.

Who said anything about vegans?


Someone who won't eat meat for whatever illogical reason they can think of is either a vegan or vegetarian.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17570
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:21 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Near the tipping point you must be joking. The numbers of vegans although very loud are still tiny compared to the numbers of meat eaters.

And there are still close to 40m smokers in the US.

Who said anything about vegans?


Someone who won't eat meat for whatever illogical reason they can think of is either a vegan or vegetarian.

That is obvious. No one brought up vegans. Not sure what you're talking about.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
TSS
Posts: 3300
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:53 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Who said anything about vegans?


Someone who won't eat meat for whatever illogical reason they can think of is either a vegan or vegetarian.


That is obvious. No one brought up vegans. Not sure what you're talking about.


Different points on the same scale, with one end being the ones who won't eat red meat but will still eat fish, eggs, and dairy to the other end represented by those who claim to be so "in tune with Gaya" :roll: that not only will they neither eat nor use anything that isn't 100% non-animal based, they won't even eat fruit that has been plucked and insist on eating only fruit that has fallen naturally. I'm not making this up, these people really do exist.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:33 pm

TSS wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Someone who won't eat meat for whatever illogical reason they can think of is either a vegan or vegetarian.


That is obvious. No one brought up vegans. Not sure what you're talking about.


Different points on the same scale, with one end being the ones who won't eat red meat but will still eat fish, eggs, and dairy to the other end represented by those who claim to be so "in tune with Gaya" :roll: that not only will they neither eat nor use anything that isn't 100% non-animal based, they won't even eat fruit that has been plucked and insist on eating only fruit that has fallen naturally. I'm not making this up, these people really do exist.


But then they insist on using synthetic materials for their clothing, which is made from petroleum products which is really just dead animals. Guess they naturally died?
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17570
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:49 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
TSS wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:

That is obvious. No one brought up vegans. Not sure what you're talking about.


Different points on the same scale, with one end being the ones who won't eat red meat but will still eat fish, eggs, and dairy to the other end represented by those who claim to be so "in tune with Gaya" :roll: that not only will they neither eat nor use anything that isn't 100% non-animal based, they won't even eat fruit that has been plucked and insist on eating only fruit that has fallen naturally. I'm not making this up, these people really do exist.


But then they insist on using synthetic materials for their clothing, which is made from petroleum products which is really just dead animals. Guess they naturally died?

How else would those animals have died millions of years ago? :confused:
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
TSS
Posts: 3300
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:59 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
TSS wrote:
Different points on the same scale, with one end being the ones who won't eat red meat but will still eat fish, eggs, and dairy to the other end represented by those who claim to be so "in tune with Gaya" :roll: that not only will they neither eat nor use anything that isn't 100% non-animal based, they won't even eat fruit that has been plucked and insist on eating only fruit that has fallen naturally. I'm not making this up, these people really do exist.


But then they insist on using synthetic materials for their clothing, which is made from petroleum products which is really just dead animals. Guess they naturally died?


How else would those animals have died millions of years ago? :confused:


Image
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12240
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:00 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
TSS wrote:

Different points on the same scale, with one end being the ones who won't eat red meat but will still eat fish, eggs, and dairy to the other end represented by those who claim to be so "in tune with Gaya" :roll: that not only will they neither eat nor use anything that isn't 100% non-animal based, they won't even eat fruit that has been plucked and insist on eating only fruit that has fallen naturally. I'm not making this up, these people really do exist.


But then they insist on using synthetic materials for their clothing, which is made from petroleum products which is really just dead animals. Guess they naturally died?

How else would those animals have died millions of years ago? :confused:


Eaten by someone bigger; I guess you could call be eaten death by natural causes.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:05 pm

DL717 wrote:

So wait. The environmental solution to the morality of eating animals is to convert current uninhabitable land to habitat land, presumably for polluting humans? Makes sense.



Not only is this not what I have said, but a rational connection from what I have to the above mess is impossible to complete.

Nobody cares about the morality of eating animals. Farmland, however, is about as wasteful and pollutive use of land as there is. It is not possible to avoid the need of this, but to minimize as best as possible is what we need to be doing.

Uninhabitable land will stay that way, no matter what anyone does. A farm or ranch will not develop over an ice floe. Or on top of a mountain.

TSS wrote:

Different points on the same scale, with one end being the ones who won't eat red meat but will still eat fish, eggs, and dairy to the other end represented by those who claim to be so "in tune with Gaya" :roll: that not only will they neither eat nor use anything that isn't 100% non-animal based, they won't even eat fruit that has been plucked and insist on eating only fruit that has fallen naturally. I'm not making this up, these people really do exist.


On of the few advantages of dealing with extremists is the fact that they trade relevance for their beliefs the further out they lie...





tommy1808 wrote:
Having livestock there is the land being used by humans..... if you just remove the livestock and let it grow wild, you get a jungle at some point and it is still habitable land. Now, DarkSnowyNight mentioned "real estate" benefits, but that doesn´t need to mean "seal it with concrete and high rises", you can also build a garden city (popular ideas before everyone had cars) or something "Venus Project" like, and you can place people there to life and still have environmental benefits. .... or you let it go wild, and it is more obviously a benefit.

best regards
Thomas


Precisely. There is not something specific that need happen or not happen to the land. If it is not absolutely essential for feeding people, that land is better of with any other use, barring certain industrial and mining applications.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2716
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:21 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Farmland, however, is about as wasteful and pollutive use of land as there is.


Depends on what, where and how.

Great swaths of country where you can't do anything with the soil but run cattle on it because the soil is only capable of growing grasses. (I use the term soil here quite loosely).

What do you intend to do about feeding people if farmland is so wasteful? We are where we are because we have to feed the population we now have. Three options exist, in my view: Develop some sort of synthetic method for creating food (good luck), continue with our current operations and make improvements as we go, as we have been for millennia, or exterminate people/massive population control.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:38 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
What do you intend to do about feeding people if farmland is so wasteful? We are where we are because we have to feed the population we now have. Three options exist, in my view: Develop some sort of synthetic method for creating food (good luck), continue with our current operations and make improvements as we go, as we have been for millennia, or exterminate people/massive population control.


Who says the population needs to stay where it is at?

You bring up a good point. Supporting things is always more work than it appears. Few people would believe the infrastructure and talent pool needed to keep something as simple as an airline running. Or an electrical grid. Or water treatment.

Humans, indeed, are no exception. Feeding, medicating and clothing 7+ Bio people on Earth costs more acreage than most folks can fathom.

I agree that synthetic calories may be more difficult than we imagine. I also think exterminating existing people presents a lot of issues as well. Population control is also problematic, and historically, those efforts tend to be non-effective against the least educated people.

I am honestly not sure what the precise solution to this is. But as we become more and more automated in our lives --a good thing as people tend to forget how awful and pointlessly laborious the past really was-- there simply is not a need for the people we have. Or will have.

Using up enough land to cover the three largest nations solely on agriculture is not a long term solution either.

Most likely, the second option you mention coupled with some real, tangible breeding restriction program is the best way forward. We keep on as we are, and there really will not be a livable world here in the next three to four thousand years.

That is a little while off, but this also has the appearance of something that will require very long term attentions. . .

trpmb6 wrote:
because the soil is only capable of growing grasses. (I use the term soil here quite loosely).



I see what have done there. . .
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11834
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:11 pm

Well educating people is something possible isn't it ? Coupled with them moving to cities, where there is no need for numerous children to cultivate land.

Somehow it has led in some developed countries to people not making enough children for the system to continue as intended (young people paying the pensions and healthcare of the elderly, etc.).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Meat Replacement and the Market Economy

Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:04 pm

Aesma wrote:
Well educating people is something possible isn't it ? Coupled with them moving to cities, where there is no need for numerous children to cultivate land.


I mainly agree. But cities still need to be fed as well.

But also, perhaps simply being in a city will prevent families from having large numbers of children. The lifestyle of a high density domicile sort of helps that along, I would think. . .

Aesma wrote:
Somehow it has led in some developed countries to people not making enough children for the system to continue as intended (young people paying the pensions and healthcare of the elderly, etc.).


Not only are those problems that can be eventually solved, at some point, they will have to be solved. All economic policies based on permanent expansion are ultimately doomed.

There is a lot to unpack with that one, and we can, but that may be for another thread. . .
In any case, people are not just living longer. They are living better for longer in regards to general health. That is actually less expensive per person per year of course, but with never-ending adjustments/improvements being pursued, those things will not be the worst issues to face.

We would absolutely need to deal with what reshaping huge portions of the world will eventually leave us with, however.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BlueberryWheats, Number6, speedygonzales and 46 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos