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seb146
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European Union Tariffs

Fri Oct 04, 2019 5:32 pm

I was scrolling through the thread on the United States asking Italy to stop flights to Iran. I have a question and thought it deserved it's own thread:

If the United States places tariffs on Italian goods, would that spread to the entire EU? Or would Italian goods be shipped from Germany or France to avoid tariffs?
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: European Union Tariffs

Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:44 pm

seb146 wrote:
I was scrolling through the thread on the United States asking Italy to stop flights to Iran. I have a question and thought it deserved it's own thread:

If the United States places tariffs on Italian goods, would that spread to the entire EU? Or would Italian goods be shipped from Germany or France to avoid tariffs?
The answer to that is very much in the hands of US Customs.
When a ship arrives from Germany (for example), they will be asked to declare what cargo is on-board.
Is this container of wine full of German wine, French wine or.....?
If it is Italian wine, was it merely shipped via Germany (to avoid tariffs) or was it purchased by a German company who then added value to it by placing it in pretty wooden presentation boxes so that now it is a German product?
I'm currently drinking a Chilean Valle Central wine, that was bottled in Germany.

Similarly, is a Boeing 787 a US product even though it contains parts made in China, Mexico, Europe....?

Best of all; is this Parmesan cheese from Italy, or from elsewhere?
Within Europe, Parmesan automatically means PDO Parmigiano Reggiano.
Outside of Europe, "Parmesan" can mean a cheese that resembles an Italian hard cheese, but is manufactured anywhere.

It will be down to the vigilance of US Customs versus the ingenuity of those who might seek to bypass the tariff.

Or everybody could simply decide it is a waste of time.

(Sorry, that probably doesn't answer your question)
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washingtonflyer
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Re: European Union Tariffs

Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:15 pm

Youre getting into questions regarding country of origin. Entire books have been written this topic and is way beyond the scope of this forum. Simplest distillation that I can impart is: if you move product from country A to country B and then to country C there must be a significant change to that product's character or composition in country B if you want to have the product considered to be a product of country B.

Taking a bottle of wine produced and filled in Italy and putting it in a pretty wooden box in Germany isn't going to constitute a change in origin. Its still an Italian bottle of wine and that is the main character of the product.

Taking a bulk container of Italian wine and putting it into 1 liter bottles in Spain also isn't going to constitute a change in origin.

Taking Italian wine, aging it in barrels in France and adding yeast and herbs to sour it into vinegar which is then labeled as a bottle of vinegar probably WILL constitute a change in origin.
 
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seb146
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Re: European Union Tariffs

Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:59 pm

Part of my question has been answered but I guess I do not understand the differences between the EU and the individual states and how they all relate to trade and tariffs.

IIRC, Airbus is based in France. Components of Airbus aircraft are made all over the world. So, if there are tariffs put on French products, how much, if any, of those tariffs would be applied to Airbus planes? Would other EU countries cover a share of the tariffs?

Where do Eurozone tariffs begin and individual nation's tariffs end? I am sure it is a huge answer and probably no simple answer anyway. No harm in asking, right?
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Aesma
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Re: European Union Tariffs

Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:18 pm

The origin of this is a WTO dispute, France and Italy etc. don't have a WTO schedule, the EU has, for the entire single market.

But Trump doesn't see things that way, that's why he does things differently. Now US public servants have to figure out a way to apply Trump's will, and if there are loopholes, they might be exploited.

On the other hand, 7,5 billions $ over countless products is probably not worth the effort on either side.
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washingtonflyer
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Re: European Union Tariffs

Sat Oct 05, 2019 8:58 pm

If the dispute is against the EU, then it is permitted to apply EU wide. If it was simply French state subsidies, it would be country specific.
 
evgenka
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Re: European Union Tariffs

Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:42 pm

It will depend on the labeling of goods at the U.S. border. If it is stated that the goods are "Italy" then there will be sanctions. That's probably true.
 
FatCat
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Re: European Union Tariffs

Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:06 pm

first, here there is a lot of confusion between "sanctions" and "tariffs".
u.s. will not apply sanctions to italian products.
u.s. will apply higher tariffs to italian products.
a sanction is a law enforcement against a product made, or transformed, in a certain Country.
italian cheese is often made with german / austrian milk. not talking about DOP / DOC / DOCG (protect origin denomination / certified origin denomination / certified and guaranteed origin denomination) because the entire "route" of the product - from the raw materials to the finished product, passing through the "recipe" and/or methods of aging, are certified, but other "less noble" cheeses; nonetheless, a cheese made in italy, with german milk, is indeed an italian cheese.
as an example, the company I work in buys hd-pe on a daily basis from Iran, the granulate is then transformed by injection molding process into the finished product, thus making the finished product by law as made in italy, and it is sold also in the u.s. - being u.s. and the napa valley in particular a huge market for our products.

different thing is shipping a product to another Country and then delivery it to the u.s.
this is called a "triangulation".
there are many different kinds of triangulation: the ware origin is nevertheless always known, and simply shipping a sea container full of italian wine to germany and then loading it onto a hapag-lloyd ship to nyc harbor doesen't skip the tariffs.
as written before, if the wine is driven from florence to düsseldorf, and bottled in düsseldorf, it becomes a german wine, even if there are the extrems of a scam. like olive oil scam, where olives are bought in north africa, shipped over to italy, squeezed, and the resulting oil is indeed sold by law as italian oil.

assembling a more complicated manufact is again another story: u.s. can prohibit the import of manufacts made or with parts made in certain Countries. let's get absurd, and say that the A350 weather radar is made in iran: u.s. can ban the import of the plane, being the weather radar a finished manufact assembled into a more complex manufact, and not a raw material that is transformed into a finished manufact.
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JJJ
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Re: European Union Tariffs

Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:23 pm

FatCat wrote:
like olive oil scam, where olives are bought in north africa, shipped over to italy, squeezed, and the resulting oil is indeed sold by law as italian oil.


Doesn't make much sense importing olives. Italy imports the olive oil in bulk, ready to be mixed with local oil (or just re-labelled).

It's no wonder Italy is at the same time the biggest importer and the 2nd largest exporter of olive oil, while having one of the highest rates of internal consumption.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: European Union Tariffs

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:07 am

FatCat wrote:
as written before, if the wine is driven from florence to düsseldorf, and bottled in düsseldorf, it becomes a german wine, even if there are the extrems of a scam. like olive oil scam, where olives are bought in north africa, shipped over to italy, squeezed, and the resulting oil is indeed sold by law as italian oil.


Actually, no it doesn't. The wine is still wine, you just bottled it in a glass bottle. The essential character of the product is the wine which hasn't changed at all. It's still Italian.
 
washingtonflyer
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Re: European Union Tariffs

Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:11 am

washingtonflyer wrote:
FatCat wrote:
as written before, if the wine is driven from florence to düsseldorf, and bottled in düsseldorf, it becomes a german wine, even if there are the extrems of a scam. like olive oil scam, where olives are bought in north africa, shipped over to italy, squeezed, and the resulting oil is indeed sold by law as italian oil.



Actually, no it doesn't. The wine is still wine, you just bottled it in a glass bottle. The essential character of the product is the wine which hasn't changed at all. It's still Italian.


Olive oil blending is big, big business as is the false labeling of "italian extra virgin olive oil" which may be 1) Tunisian, Moroccan, or Spanish in origin, or 2) not even olive oil (i.e., grapeseed oil).

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