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flyingturtle
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:44 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
I'm glad we're leaving. So thankful that we're not pursuing the failed "Nation-Building" of the Bush Presidency.


Except the mission in Syria wasn't about "nation-building."
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:52 am

flyingturtle wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
I'm glad we're leaving. So thankful that we're not pursuing the failed "Nation-Building" of the Bush Presidency.


Except the mission in Syria wasn't about "nation-building."


Whatever it was for, it isn't worth the lives of American military members.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:57 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
I'm glad we're leaving. So thankful that we're not pursuing the failed "Nation-Building" of the Bush Presidency.


Except the mission in Syria wasn't about "nation-building."


Whatever it was for, it isn't worth the lives of American military members.


So speaks a smug American. But seemingly it was worth for Kurdish fighters to lay down their lives for a U.S. cause, and now we're abandoning them.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:06 am

flyingturtle wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:

Except the mission in Syria wasn't about "nation-building."


Whatever it was for, it isn't worth the lives of American military members.


So speaks a smug American. But seemingly it was worth for Kurdish fighters to lay down their lives for a U.S. cause, and now we're abandoning them.


They should have told us to screw off. If they had then maybe we would have turned around and gone home a long time ago. If everyone would mind their own business the world would be a better place for the most part. There will be a few awful places but better to keep it contained there.
 
Beardown91737
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:23 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
I notice with some curiosity that none of the people condemning this move are volunteering to go act as a human shields in Syria, which is effectively what the U.S. soldiers in there now are.

I don't remember the republicans volunteering for any of the wars they've started since 9/11, especially the one to take down the Taliban...before courageously and patriotically capitulating to the Taliban 20 years later. Maybe that's why they need to over compensate by standing for the anthem at all times. :rotfl:


You say "wars" plural. Name the ones that republicans started. I am hoping you do not try to claim that republicans "started" Afghanistan.


For the Pyrex post, here is the list of who saw combat and who did not.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pent ... e-numbers/

A summary:
    96 total veterans in the 116th Congress.
    30 are Democrats, 66 are Republicans.
    19 will serve in the Senate, 77 will serve in the House.
    48 served in the military after 2000.
    21 served in the military in the 1960s or earlier.
    19 are first-time lawmakers.
    7 are women.
    50 served in the Army, Army Reserve or Army National Guard.
    17 served in the Marine Corps or Marine Corps Reserve.
    17 served in the Air Force, Air Force Reserve or Air National Guard.
    13 served in the Navy or Naval Reserve.
    1 served in the Coast Guard.
135 hrs PIC (mostly PA-28) - not current. Landings at MDW, PIA, JAN.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:28 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Whatever it was for, it isn't worth the lives of American military members.


So speaks a smug American. But seemingly it was worth for Kurdish fighters to lay down their lives for a U.S. cause, and now we're abandoning them.


They should have told us to screw off. If they had then maybe we would have turned around and gone home a long time ago. If everyone would mind their own business the world would be a better place for the most part. There will be a few awful places but better to keep it contained there.


'Everyone mind their own business' does not comport with the mantra of every quarterly KPI-chasing CEO seeking 'growth anywhere and anyhow' - hence the rapid global expansion and export of American capitalism everywhere since the end of the 1970s oil crisis.

As for the Kurds, you'll find some of our servicemembers and veterans who have worked alongside them have utmost respect and are despondent to see this turn of events. See Rep. Adam Kinzinger as one example.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:11 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Trump just said that "the Kurds weren't helping in Normandy", and in lots of "other places."

If I had a dog that suffered that much, I'd euthanize the animal...


Forget about impeachment, what about the 25th amendment ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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seb146
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:28 pm

Beardown91737 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
I notice with some curiosity that none of the people condemning this move are volunteering to go act as a human shields in Syria, which is effectively what the U.S. soldiers in there now are.

I don't remember the republicans volunteering for any of the wars they've started since 9/11, especially the one to take down the Taliban...before courageously and patriotically capitulating to the Taliban 20 years later. Maybe that's why they need to over compensate by standing for the anthem at all times. :rotfl:


You say "wars" plural. Name the ones that republicans started. I am hoping you do not try to claim that republicans "started" Afghanistan.


The first Afghani war was started under Reagan. We were giving arms to al-Qaida to fight the Russians. When Russia left, al-Qaida turned on us so GWB went back after 9/11. Both Republicans. Iraq was started under GWB and Korea (ongoing) was started under the Republican Eisenhower. Kuwait was carried out under a Republican, GHWB. If you really want to "go there" Republicans were giving arms and money to overthrow governments in Central America.

If you want to go old school, the Spanish American was was fought under McKinley and the Civil Was was fought under Lincoln, both Republicans.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:54 pm

Interesting article by Politico today. It starts with Lindsey Graham getting prank call from Russians posing as the Turkish Minister. This happened in Early August.

What he said on that call is in contrast to his public lambasting of the President this week, and indicates that this abandonment of Syria has been a long time coming.

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/1 ... all-043991

"But Graham also expressed sympathy for Turkey’s “Kurdish problem” and described the Kurds as a “threat.” Those private comments appear to contradict his public statements this week, in which he criticized Trump’s decision to pull U.S. troops out of northern Syria because it’s “wrong to abandon the Kurds, who have been strong allies against” the Islamic State.

“Your YPG Kurdish problem is a big problem,” Graham told the pranksters. He was referring to the Kurdish People’s Protection Units, a group that began fighting ISIS as part of the Syrian Democratic Forces in 2015—with support from the U.S.—but is considered a terrorist group by Turkey because of its push to establish an autonomous state for the Kurds on the Turkish-Syrian border.

“I told President Trump that Obama made a huge mistake in relying on the YPG Kurds,” Graham continued. “Everything I worried about has come true, and now we have to make sure Turkey is protected from this threat in Syria. I’m sympathetic to the YPG problem, and so is the president, quite frankly.”"
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
alfa164
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:22 pm

casinterest wrote:
Interesting article by Politico today. It starts with Lindsey Graham getting prank call from Russians posing as the Turkish Minister. This happened in Early August.


Maybe that's why we didn't see so many posts from out Russian "comrade" here on A.net during August; he was busy pranking Lindsey...

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:07 pm

If the UK or France or Germany want to go in and help the Kurds, I don't mind.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:32 pm

alfa164 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Interesting article by Politico today. It starts with Lindsey Graham getting prank call from Russians posing as the Turkish Minister. This happened in Early August.


Maybe that's why we didn't see so many posts from out Russian "comrade" here on A.net during August; he was busy pranking Lindsey...

;)


Perhaps, but seriously, the stuff Graham discussed with them is rather concerning considering current events.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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smithbs
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Be very careful what you say here.

Like everybody else does? :rotfl:

I wasn't very surprised to see this development. President Trump has never been a solid supporter of the operations in Syria and it always seemed his patience was wearing thin, but every attempt at a move out was met with condemnation on all sides. I agree with his frustration at the situation. The political situation in the region is the most complicated in modern times. The US got in by narrowly focusing on ISIS at the expense of any sort of plan for all of the regional actors.

Since the caliphate has been destroyed, the regional players have to be addressed now, and President Trump is obviously not interested in doing that. The issues are so complicated at the regional level that one should ask themselves what the cost and reward might be to be an outsider who tries to mediate them, and to me it appears to be very thin math, and it appears from his tweets that the President thinks so too.

I'd like to point out that everyone who is advocating that the US should stay to destroy ISIS doesn't have a plan anymore. The public has been told the caliphate is destroyed, that ISIS was destroyed 100%! So for those who say we should stay, how much more ISIS is there to destroy? Is there more caliphate somewhere? Do we have to destroy them 110%? 125%? Advocating a perpetual presence is fine, and we can do that, but we must be clear on where the goal posts now reside. Nobody is saying where those goal posts are now.

Also, let's remember who the allies and clients are. Kurds aren't US allies - they are clients. We paid and supported them to do a job, with no expectation of reciprocity. I can check the files, but I don't think there is any signed mutual defense pact with the Kurds in there. And the Kurds should have known by now that our support was limited to ISIS-hunting - our lack of support in late 2017 in Iraq should have gotten the message through. Don't get me wrong - I sympathize with the Kurds and think they deserve their own state, but I don't see it happening in the current paradigm. But they are not US allies - just clients.

Turkey isn't a US client - it is an ally, with the signed documents to prove it. So how does that correlate to where we are now? Something to wonder about.
 
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smithbs
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:46 pm

seb146 wrote:
The first Afghani war was started under Reagan. We were giving arms to al-Qaida to fight the Russians. When Russia left, al-Qaida turned on us so GWB went back after 9/11. Both Republicans. Iraq was started under GWB and Korea (ongoing) was started under the Republican Eisenhower. Kuwait was carried out under a Republican, GHWB. If you really want to "go there" Republicans were giving arms and money to overthrow governments in Central America.

If you want to go old school, the Spanish American was was fought under McKinley and the Civil Was was fought under Lincoln, both Republicans.


Let me chime in! :old:

The first Afghani war started in the late 1970s, so President Carter was around. Yes, President Reagan accelerated the policy of equipping the mujahedin, but the US did not supply Al Qaida - they did not exist at that time as such. The Taliban itself only came to power in the mid-1990s, to almost finish the multi-way Afghan civil war that erupted after the Soviets withdrew.

And President Lincoln did not start the Civil War. It started between his election and inauguration - by the Southern Democrat block which was furious that a Republican had been elected!

And let's throw in the Cuban Missile Crisis to balance things out. President Kennedy, right?
 
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seb146
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:02 am

smithbs wrote:
Turkey isn't a US client - it is an ally,


You got part of that right. The only reason "we" are supporting Turkey is because of two buildings in Istanbul with a certain man's name atop them......
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
anrec80
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:37 am

alfa164 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Interesting article by Politico today. It starts with Lindsey Graham getting prank call from Russians posing as the Turkish Minister. This happened in Early August.


Maybe that's why we didn't see so many posts from out Russian "comrade" here on A.net during August; he was busy pranking Lindsey...

;)


Wow - you are even keeping track of trends in “pro-Russian” post count. Have you ever wondered if there are more productive applications to such talent?
 
olle
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:19 am

You know that when Germany go from 1% of gdp to 2 % of gdp in defence spending as agreed it will spend close double then uk?

France is fully occupied in ex collonies special in Africa.

The biggest looser of this is the ties between usa and allies created after WWII. Nato article 5? Defence of Israel? South Korea? Japan?

Germany lost 10 million people in WWII and was close to dissapear as industrial nation. They and other history looking EU nations will need to reevaluate its view of security closer to the French view and is doing this. Brexit actually comes in the right moment to be able to execute many decisions impossible to take a few years back.

How will Israel react to this?
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:53 am

French troops are on the ground in Syria, however in France this is not really talked about, and finding details is not easy. At the height of "Opération Chammal" 1000 soldiers/special force/advisers were on the ground in Iraq and Syria, with support from 10 Rafales, and several Caesar self-propelled howitzers.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:18 am

smithbs wrote:
I wasn't very surprised to see this development. President Trump has never been a solid supporter of the operations in Syria and it always seemed his patience was wearing thin, but every attempt at a move out was met with condemnation on all sides. I agree with his frustration at the situation. The political situation in the region is the most complicated in modern times. The US got in by narrowly focusing on ISIS at the expense of any sort of plan for all of the regional actors.

Since the caliphate has been destroyed, the regional players have to be addressed now, and President Trump is obviously not interested in doing that. The issues are so complicated at the regional level that one should ask themselves what the cost and reward might be to be an outsider who tries to mediate them, and to me it appears to be very thin math, and it appears from his tweets that the President thinks so too.

I'd like to point out that everyone who is advocating that the US should stay to destroy ISIS doesn't have a plan anymore. The public has been told the caliphate is destroyed, that ISIS was destroyed 100%! So for those who say we should stay, how much more ISIS is there to destroy? Is there more caliphate somewhere? Do we have to destroy them 110%? 125%? Advocating a perpetual presence is fine, and we can do that, but we must be clear on where the goal posts now reside. Nobody is saying where those goal posts are now.

Also, let's remember who the allies and clients are. Kurds aren't US allies - they are clients. We paid and supported them to do a job, with no expectation of reciprocity. I can check the files, but I don't think there is any signed mutual defense pact with the Kurds in there. And the Kurds should have known by now that our support was limited to ISIS-hunting - our lack of support in late 2017 in Iraq should have gotten the message through. Don't get me wrong - I sympathize with the Kurds and think they deserve their own state, but I don't see it happening in the current paradigm. But they are not US allies - just clients.

Turkey isn't a US client - it is an ally, with the signed documents to prove it. So how does that correlate to where we are now? Something to wonder about.


You see the Kurds as disposable units of fighters I guess. You know it is a complex situation and "helping out" and then leave is leaving them at . the mercy of the Turks or thee Assad regime. Not really good for the health of the Kurds.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:37 pm

To be honest the Kurds were fighting ISIS with or without us. And are sworn enemies or Erdogan since he scuppered the peace talks.

Still, there was probably more that could be done to stop Turkey.

The problem is NATO, and the fact we (the west starting with the US) are the ones who want Turkey in NATO, more than the reverse.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
SteelChair
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:38 pm

anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Interesting article by Politico today. It starts with Lindsey Graham getting prank call from Russians posing as the Turkish Minister. This happened in Early August.


Maybe that's why we didn't see so many posts from out Russian "comrade" here on A.net during August; he was busy pranking Lindsey...

;)


Wow - you are even keeping track of trends in “pro-Russian” post count. Have you ever wondered if there are more productive applications to such talent?


Like the comedian who pranked Schiff when Schiff asked what he thought was a foreign national for dirt on Trump...
 
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smithbs
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:56 pm

Dutchy wrote:
smithbs wrote:
I wasn't very surprised to see this development. President Trump has never been a solid supporter of the operations in Syria and it always seemed his patience was wearing thin, but every attempt at a move out was met with condemnation on all sides. I agree with his frustration at the situation. The political situation in the region is the most complicated in modern times. The US got in by narrowly focusing on ISIS at the expense of any sort of plan for all of the regional actors.

Since the caliphate has been destroyed, the regional players have to be addressed now, and President Trump is obviously not interested in doing that. The issues are so complicated at the regional level that one should ask themselves what the cost and reward might be to be an outsider who tries to mediate them, and to me it appears to be very thin math, and it appears from his tweets that the President thinks so too.

I'd like to point out that everyone who is advocating that the US should stay to destroy ISIS doesn't have a plan anymore. The public has been told the caliphate is destroyed, that ISIS was destroyed 100%! So for those who say we should stay, how much more ISIS is there to destroy? Is there more caliphate somewhere? Do we have to destroy them 110%? 125%? Advocating a perpetual presence is fine, and we can do that, but we must be clear on where the goal posts now reside. Nobody is saying where those goal posts are now.

Also, let's remember who the allies and clients are. Kurds aren't US allies - they are clients. We paid and supported them to do a job, with no expectation of reciprocity. I can check the files, but I don't think there is any signed mutual defense pact with the Kurds in there. And the Kurds should have known by now that our support was limited to ISIS-hunting - our lack of support in late 2017 in Iraq should have gotten the message through. Don't get me wrong - I sympathize with the Kurds and think they deserve their own state, but I don't see it happening in the current paradigm. But they are not US allies - just clients.

Turkey isn't a US client - it is an ally, with the signed documents to prove it. So how does that correlate to where we are now? Something to wonder about.


You see the Kurds as disposable units of fighters I guess. You know it is a complex situation and "helping out" and then leave is leaving them at . the mercy of the Turks or thee Assad regime. Not really good for the health of the Kurds.


Nope, didn't say that and please don't put words in my mouth.

smithbs wrote:
Don't get me wrong - I sympathize with the Kurds and think they deserve their own state


The current paradigm has them locked in place, and the keys are held mostly by Turkey, Iraq and Iran. The United States is not in a position to overturn the desires of those three nations.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:07 pm

smithbs wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You see the Kurds as disposable units of fighters I guess. You know it is a complex situation and "helping out" and then leave is leaving them at . the mercy of the Turks or thee Assad regime. Not really good for the health of the Kurds.


Nope, didn't say that and please don't put words in my mouth.


Ok, you didn't say that, but what did you mean by clients, job done be out etc.?
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:11 pm

So now that it is clear that Syria, Turkey and Iraq all have an ax to Grind on the Kurds, it would seem that the US is not going to win any favors of those that would be our allies in future terrorism fights.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syri ... cgBxHZILSo

The Syrian Kurdish YPG never fought the government during the war, and even accommodated the Syrian government’s presence in its main city of Qamishli and has a lucrative illicit oil sales business with Damascus.

Damascus, however, is loathe to cede the Syrian Kurds the level of autonomy they seek. The government earlier this year threatened the U.S.-backed Kurdish forces with military defeat if they did not agree to a return of state authority.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:11 pm

SteelChair wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:

Maybe that's why we didn't see so many posts from out Russian "comrade" here on A.net during August; he was busy pranking Lindsey...

;)


Wow - you are even keeping track of trends in “pro-Russian” post count. Have you ever wondered if there are more productive applications to such talent?


Like the comedian who pranked Schiff when Schiff asked what he thought was a foreign national for dirt on Trump...


It was the same set of people.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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smithbs
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
smithbs wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You see the Kurds as disposable units of fighters I guess. You know it is a complex situation and "helping out" and then leave is leaving them at . the mercy of the Turks or thee Assad regime. Not really good for the health of the Kurds.


Nope, didn't say that and please don't put words in my mouth.


Ok, you didn't say that, but what did you mean by clients, job done be out etc.?


Well, what commitments were actually made? I'm not aware of the US ever giving the Kurds guarantees of anything. The support they've gotten from the US has been varied, often tepid, and, in my view, very narrowly focused on their fight against ISIS.

There's of course been the desire that they should not be abused by Turkey, and a bunch of sympathy for their situation, but as far as I remember that was never codified as official policy. Does anyone know if there was official policy on the US establishing a protectorate on the Kurds?
 
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smithbs
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:
smithbs wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You see the Kurds as disposable units of fighters I guess. You know it is a complex situation and "helping out" and then leave is leaving them at . the mercy of the Turks or thee Assad regime. Not really good for the health of the Kurds.


Nope, didn't say that and please don't put words in my mouth.


Ok, you didn't say that, but what did you mean by clients, job done be out etc.?


Actually I should respond slightly differently - I think you are blurring my views with my analysis with official US policy. I personally sympathize with the Kurds. But most of my post was policy analysis, which I don't get to decide.

It's one of those cases where I understand the path and decisions that policy has taken, and often times the decision tree lands you in a place that you wish you didn't land in.
 
FatCat
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:22 pm

well the us did not partecipate in ww2 until attacked even if the biggest ethnical cleaning was already be conducted so why should they care about another small ethnical cleaning... why should the policemen of the free world care about some guys in a dusty place where there isn't any oil at all...
Aeroplane flies high
Turns left, looks right
 
MaverickM11
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:35 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
I'm glad we're leaving. So thankful that we're not pursuing the failed "Nation-Building" of the Bush Presidency.


Except the mission in Syria wasn't about "nation-building."

After the announced pullout of Syria we are sending thousands more to Saudi Arabia to...do what now? Defend leaders that cut up journalists? Are we just following the folks that pay cash now?

Beardown91737 wrote:
For the Pyrex post, here is the list of who saw combat and who did not.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pent ... e-numbers/


How many of those congressmen's children were going to fight in Iraq when they voted to invade the second time?
Last edited by MaverickM11 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
slider
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:38 pm

I'm loving the reaction of this among talking heads and the Twitterverse....I'm laughing my ass off.

The same people who proudly proclaimed to be anti-war and decried Bush wasting American life now nuke Trump for "abandoning" those in need. It's riotous hypocrisy in action.

The correct answer is that it's right we pull out. The USA has *zero* national interest there. None. Nada. And it's not worth escalating for, nor harming the hair on a single American head, IMHO.
 
slider
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:39 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
This whole mess of course started with the Brits and French playing colonial puppet masters in the Middle East...


This particular mess began with “spreading of democracy” of 2011.


The entire mess truly started in 632 AD, but hey, who's counting...
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:49 pm

slider wrote:
I'm loving the reaction of this among talking heads and the Twitterverse....I'm laughing my ass off.

The same people who proudly proclaimed to be anti-war and decried Bush wasting American life now nuke Trump for "abandoning" those in need. It's riotous hypocrisy in action.

The correct answer is that it's right we pull out. The USA has *zero* national interest there. None. Nada. And it's not worth escalating for, nor harming the hair on a single American head, IMHO.


You may forget, but some of us protesting in 2002 were on about the choice of country, not anti-war stuff. Iraq had zero connection to 9/11, the country next door had 15 of its citizens involved, clandestine government assistance to plotters and years of funding madrassas everywhere. Some of us demanded regime change there instead. But oh well, petrodollars.
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KPDX
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:55 pm

slider wrote:
I'm loving the reaction of this among talking heads and the Twitterverse....I'm laughing my ass off.

The same people who proudly proclaimed to be anti-war and decried Bush wasting American life now nuke Trump for "abandoning" those in need. It's riotous hypocrisy in action.

The correct answer is that it's right we pull out. The USA has *zero* national interest there. None. Nada. And it's not worth escalating for, nor harming the hair on a single American head, IMHO.



This. It's incredible seeing all of the typical anti-war folks suddenly in favor of keeping the United States involved and boots on the ground. Unreal hypocrisy. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

In my opinion, we have no business being anywhere in the Middle East.
 
slider
Posts: 7422
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:49 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
slider wrote:
I'm loving the reaction of this among talking heads and the Twitterverse....I'm laughing my ass off.

The same people who proudly proclaimed to be anti-war and decried Bush wasting American life now nuke Trump for "abandoning" those in need. It's riotous hypocrisy in action.

The correct answer is that it's right we pull out. The USA has *zero* national interest there. None. Nada. And it's not worth escalating for, nor harming the hair on a single American head, IMHO.


You may forget, but some of us protesting in 2002 were on about the choice of country, not anti-war stuff. Iraq had zero connection to 9/11, the country next door had 15 of its citizens involved, clandestine government assistance to plotters and years of funding madrassas everywhere. Some of us demanded regime change there instead. But oh well, petrodollars.


Petrodollars and the realpolitik associated with it have haunted the US since the 1950s, most notably our Saudi involvement. No question about that, you're correct. But that doesn't invalidate the current action. This country is energy independent now. To KPDX's point, we have no business being involved anywhere there now. A modern Europe, with capitals hundreds of miles to the ME, can handle it.

Back in 2012, most of both parties were banging war drums for the Syrian conflict. Problem is, there is NO viable secular optionin Syria--none. You either have a brutal secular dictatorship or an islamofascist dictatorship rooted in Shia 12th Mahdi nonsense (backed by Iran). Binary choice.

Topple Assad I've read here. We tried that where else? let's see...Iran, Iraq, Libya and bunch of other places. It didn't work. ANYWHERE. It propped up Wahhabism for vital national interests (i.e.: oil, to Aaron747's point). It always ends up in the same place.

Taking from this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... r4oAyRbgDk

"The US doesn't classify the YPG as a terrorist entity--that's a legal distinction that allowed the Obama administration to justify its cooperation with the group. Both groups operate under the same structure, fighters move freely between them. The YPG is militarily effective in part because of its members' experience in Turkey. Links on the ground are clear, though--after the YPG defeated the islamic state in Raqqa (Syria), they unfurled banners of Abdullah Ocalan, the imprisoned founder of the PKK."

As one reader said, we had a transactional agreement with the Kurds to get ISIS out--a mutual enemy. That's all. We don't need to and should avoid being in a dispute that predates the existence of our own country.

Europeans draw arbitrary lines on the map without regard for tribalism. It ends poorly EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. We have no business here.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:28 pm

slider wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
This whole mess of course started with the Brits and French playing colonial puppet masters in the Middle East...


This particular mess began with “spreading of democracy” of 2011.


The entire mess truly started in 632 AD, but hey, who's counting...


You mean before the dawn of time
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:36 pm

smithbs wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
smithbs wrote:

Nope, didn't say that and please don't put words in my mouth.


Ok, you didn't say that, but what did you mean by clients, job done be out etc.?


Actually I should respond slightly differently - I think you are blurring my views with my analysis with official US policy. I personally sympathize with the Kurds. But most of my post was policy analysis, which I don't get to decide.

It's one of those cases where I understand the path and decisions that policy has taken, and often times the decision tree lands you in a place that you wish you didn't land in.


Well, then you should make clear what is analysis and what is opinion :D

The biggest problem is of course that the US goes in without a plan. It was the case in Iraq, in Afghanistan and in Syria, among other things. The lag of a plan beyond the first fight is quite shocking, ISIS and Al Quiada was the result, and we don't know what will happen next.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17579
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:45 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
slider wrote:
I'm loving the reaction of this among talking heads and the Twitterverse....I'm laughing my ass off.

The same people who proudly proclaimed to be anti-war and decried Bush wasting American life now nuke Trump for "abandoning" those in need. It's riotous hypocrisy in action.

The correct answer is that it's right we pull out. The USA has *zero* national interest there. None. Nada. And it's not worth escalating for, nor harming the hair on a single American head, IMHO.


You may forget, but some of us protesting in 2002 were on about the choice of country, not anti-war stuff. Iraq had zero connection to 9/11, the country next door had 15 of its citizens involved, clandestine government assistance to plotters and years of funding madrassas everywhere. Some of us demanded regime change there instead. But oh well, petrodollars.

Slider and all the recently converted anti-war folks must have forgotten all of their commentary on Iraq is still on the site.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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seb146
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:03 pm

I have been hearing the Kurds in Syria have been holding about 12,000 ISIS fighters in detention centers. But, with the invasion by Turkey, the Kurds will probably abandon those centers and effectively release 12,000 ISIS fighters to the four winds. Good job!
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:22 pm

seb146 wrote:
I have been hearing the Kurds in Syria have been holding about 12,000 ISIS fighters in detention centers. But, with the invasion by Turkey, the Kurds will probably abandon those centers and effectively release 12,000 ISIS fighters to the four winds. Good job!


Just on the news, new bombings of ISIS in Syria, so on one hand they have the Turks attacking their cities and on the other hand ISIS exploding bombs inside the city.

Well done all :roll:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:30 pm

So Trump will go down as Resurrecting ISIS?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
MaverickM11
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:34 pm

casinterest wrote:
So Trump will go down as Resurrecting ISIS?

Well he can't resurrect Osama so it's a good alternative :rotfl:
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:03 pm

Why are the captured ISIS fighters still alive. We don't sign Geneva accords with terrorists now do we??
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
BN747
Posts: 6789
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 pm

slider wrote:
I'm loving the reaction of this among talking heads and the Twitterverse....I'm laughing my ass off.

The same people who proudly proclaimed to be anti-war and decried Bush wasting American life now nuke Trump for "abandoning" those in need. It's riotous hypocrisy in action.

The correct answer is that it's right we pull out. The USA has *zero* national interest there. None. Nada. And it's not worth escalating for, nor harming the hair on a single American head, IMHO.


Dude, it's about retaining 'credibility' with an reliable local population that understands the various players in region that resides on powder kegs everywhere.

It's intel provided normal and unorthodoxed channels...intel in regions such as this are anything to be laughed at and no price can be placed on it.

But glad you find it funny.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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keesje
Topic Author
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:57 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Why are the captured ISIS fighters still alive. We don't sign Geneva accords with terrorists now do we??


Because the "terrorist" qualification is liberally used to eliminate opponents by various regimes, religions, politicians, fatnecks. Who all feel they own the truth & don't need proof.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 9717
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:48 am

slider wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
slider wrote:
I'm loving the reaction of this among talking heads and the Twitterverse....I'm laughing my ass off.

The same people who proudly proclaimed to be anti-war and decried Bush wasting American life now nuke Trump for "abandoning" those in need. It's riotous hypocrisy in action.

The correct answer is that it's right we pull out. The USA has *zero* national interest there. None. Nada. And it's not worth escalating for, nor harming the hair on a single American head, IMHO.


You may forget, but some of us protesting in 2002 were on about the choice of country, not anti-war stuff. Iraq had zero connection to 9/11, the country next door had 15 of its citizens involved, clandestine government assistance to plotters and years of funding madrassas everywhere. Some of us demanded regime change there instead. But oh well, petrodollars.


Petrodollars and the realpolitik associated with it have haunted the US since the 1950s, most notably our Saudi involvement. No question about that, you're correct. But that doesn't invalidate the current action. This country is energy independent now. To KPDX's point, we have no business being involved anywhere there now. A modern Europe, with capitals hundreds of miles to the ME, can handle it.

Back in 2012, most of both parties were banging war drums for the Syrian conflict. Problem is, there is NO viable secular optionin Syria--none. You either have a brutal secular dictatorship or an islamofascist dictatorship rooted in Shia 12th Mahdi nonsense (backed by Iran). Binary choice.

Topple Assad I've read here. We tried that where else? let's see...Iran, Iraq, Libya and bunch of other places. It didn't work. ANYWHERE. It propped up Wahhabism for vital national interests (i.e.: oil, to Aaron747's point). It always ends up in the same place.

Taking from this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... r4oAyRbgDk

"The US doesn't classify the YPG as a terrorist entity--that's a legal distinction that allowed the Obama administration to justify its cooperation with the group. Both groups operate under the same structure, fighters move freely between them. The YPG is militarily effective in part because of its members' experience in Turkey. Links on the ground are clear, though--after the YPG defeated the islamic state in Raqqa (Syria), they unfurled banners of Abdullah Ocalan, the imprisoned founder of the PKK."

As one reader said, we had a transactional agreement with the Kurds to get ISIS out--a mutual enemy. That's all. We don't need to and should avoid being in a dispute that predates the existence of our own country.

Europeans draw arbitrary lines on the map without regard for tribalism. It ends poorly EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. We have no business here.


At the end you sound like my anti-colonialism history professor from the mid-90s when he blew up every class about the mess in the Balkans.

To your larger points, back in 2012 it was also known that Syrian civil war would kickoff a massive refugee flow. Only the dimensions and extent were known unknowns. We should have leveraged the GCC ‘relationships’ and told the various royals it was time to pay up for our generosity- their land and treasure would soak up the coming refugee crisis. Had that been done, Erdogan would have no cards to play now.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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seb146
Posts: 20723
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:33 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Why are the captured ISIS fighters still alive. We don't sign Geneva accords with terrorists now do we??


Did the Kurds sign on to the Geneva Accords?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
Posts: 20723
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:34 am

Dutchy wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I have been hearing the Kurds in Syria have been holding about 12,000 ISIS fighters in detention centers. But, with the invasion by Turkey, the Kurds will probably abandon those centers and effectively release 12,000 ISIS fighters to the four winds. Good job!


Just on the news, new bombings of ISIS in Syria, so on one hand they have the Turks attacking their cities and on the other hand ISIS exploding bombs inside the city.

Well done all :roll:


I wonder what the MAGA talking points are? What will they say to demand undying support for their beloved orange leader?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3733
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:15 am

At least 785 IS fighters have escaped the Ain-Issa camp, near former IS stronghold Raqqa, following Turkish bombings.

Dutch source.
https://nos.nl/artikel/2305917-zeker-78 ... ebied.html
Attamottamotta!
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 10037
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:46 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Why are the captured ISIS fighters still alive. We don't sign Geneva accords with terrorists now do we??


Oh man, tell me you are just trolling and not truly believe this..........
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
JJJ
Posts: 3320
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:44 pm

petertenthije wrote:
At least 785 IS fighters have escaped the Ain-Issa camp, near former IS stronghold Raqqa, following Turkish bombings.

Dutch source.
https://nos.nl/artikel/2305917-zeker-78 ... ebied.html


So it turns out Assad is coming to rescue the Kurds.

How long until the Russians cause some Turkish casualties?

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