Dieuwer
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:31 pm

This whole mess of course started with the Brits and French playing colonial puppet masters in the Middle East...
 
MaverickM11
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:31 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
So now liberals are for foreign occupation? Make up your minds. We need to bring everyone home. It's ludicrous that we are still in Germany, Japan, Korea, etc.

The loudest voices deriding this are right wing, so maybe y'all get in one room, decide on one story you're gonna stick to, and then come back and tell us what the plan is. You can work out your Ukraine story line there too.
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TWA772LR
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:36 pm

casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

ISIS is a direct consequence of the Iraq war, that one is 100% US policy. The backing of the Kurds was forming a coalition against ISIS.


And Iraq was the wrong regime change - should have been 300 km to the south.



Iraq needed the regime change. Saddam was worse than Assad. As for the other regime, that one has it's pockets to deep into us Oil and Military interests.

Saddam at least had a tight grip on power thus contributing to the stability in the region. Assad has been up to his chin in shit for a long time and even the international community cant make sense of Syria anymore.
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:00 pm

Pyrex wrote:
I notice with some curiosity that none of the people condemning this move are volunteering to go act as a human shields in Syria, which is effectively what the U.S. soldiers in there now are.

Assuming that the U.S. can resolve tribal conflicts in the Middle East thousands of years old is just bonkers. If the Kurds want their country they will have to do what literally every single independent country in the world has done, and fight for it. I do wish them the best of luck, and that they clean Turkey's clock. I think they have a decent shot at it (Erdogan's military has been purged out and they may end up being as effective as Saudi Arabia in Yemen, all that fancy hardware and nobody who knows how to operate it). If there is a GoFundMe to get them some Javelin and Stinger missiles I am willing to chip in. But assuming the U.S. can act as a buffer forever is just nuts.


The middle east under Turkish domination had a strange sort of stability (and safety). European colonialism and especially petroleum politics has contributed mightily to the mess, deaths, destructions.
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Dutchy
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:07 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

And Iraq was the wrong regime change - should have been 300 km to the south.



Iraq needed the regime change. Saddam was worse than Assad. As for the other regime, that one has it's pockets to deep into us Oil and Military interests.

Saddam at least had a tight grip on power thus contributing to the stability in the region. Assad has been up to his chin in shit for a long time and even the international community cant make sense of Syria anymore.


I would say, too much sense, it is in the hand of geopolitics, not in the hands of the Syrian people. Iran and Russia want to have a puppet Assad regime in Syria, Turkey wants to dominate the region and at the same stroke diminish the Kurds - hopefully just influence - than you have ISIS and a number of other Islamic fanatics.

The Syrian people are last......
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alfa164
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:11 pm

ltbewr wrote:
One has to wonder if Pres. Trump's personal and business debts with Russian oligarchs are tipping his hand in his policy as to the Kurds to their benefit, as I noted above would help Russia with Syria.


Not to mention this little tidbit from Trump's interview with Steve Bannon in 2015: "I have a little conflict of interest, because I have a major, major building in Istanbul. It’s called Trump Towers. Two towers, instead of one. Not the usual one, it’s two."

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/11/trumps-middle-east-business-deals-raise-ethical-concerns
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Pyrex
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:46 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
I notice with some curiosity that none of the people condemning this move are volunteering to go act as a human shields in Syria, which is effectively what the U.S. soldiers in there now are.

Assuming that the U.S. can resolve tribal conflicts in the Middle East thousands of years old is just bonkers. If the Kurds want their country they will have to do what literally every single independent country in the world has done, and fight for it. I do wish them the best of luck, and that they clean Turkey's clock. I think they have a decent shot at it (Erdogan's military has been purged out and they may end up being as effective as Saudi Arabia in Yemen, all that fancy hardware and nobody who knows how to operate it). If there is a GoFundMe to get them some Javelin and Stinger missiles I am willing to chip in. But assuming the U.S. can act as a buffer forever is just nuts.


The middle east under Turkish domination had a strange sort of stability (and safety). European colonialism and especially petroleum politics has contributed mightily to the mess, deaths, destructions.


Yes, the Ottoman empire was a beacon of safety, just ask the Armenians. Oh, wait... Plus, it was so stable it collapsed on its own.
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anrec80
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:15 pm

janders wrote:
The Kurds are nothing more than a terrorist group themselves which we coopted for convenience sake and used them when it fit the narrative.
Time has not changed the fact of who these Kurdish fighters really are and it’s time to move on and not get in the way of the Turks to secure their borders better. The U.S should not have gotten in bed with these bad apples to begin with and long overdue we don’t prop them up either.


The Kurds are a quite large (40 million AFAIR) ethnic group, living in Syria, Iraq and Turkey, and they do not have their own state. Given the way the things are, I think it’s best for them if the world community and regional powers stabilize those countries, and have them negotiate agreements that would allow Kurds to live anywhere in Kurdish autonomous areas of any country, work there and travel around freely.
 
anrec80
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:23 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
This whole mess of course started with the Brits and French playing colonial puppet masters in the Middle East...


This particular mess began with “spreading of democracy” of 2011.
 
bhill
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:31 pm

Well, now Turkey has a target to test their new shiny Russian supplied missiles...This has a stench to it of Col Putin being involved. Let's leave a shit ton of MANPADS behind.......
Carpe Pices
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:55 pm

The Armenian genocide was just one of the horrible chapters of The Great War. The Ottoman Empire was commonly called the sick man of Europe. Armenians and Kurds, as well as Jewish and Christian communities had survived (sometimes thriving) for 400 years. The empire was losing its power and about to totally collapse. WWI and European wars (and another genocide if certain posters remember) destroyed a lot of what was good about the Mideast. I probably would not be described as a huge admirer of that time and era, but it had its good points.
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mercure1
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:18 pm

It was always going to be problematic for the U.S to side with the Kurds which the U.S. itself in official documents call a terrorist group.

Sooner or later this relationship was going to end, and might as well be now and let the Turks finally clean up the mess.
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UPlog
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:28 pm

As a vet, I shake my head at the waste of effort Syria has been for the U.S. military, and it's long overdue we leave especially since our so-called allies are hardly angels themselves.

If the U.S. really wanted to do something in Syria, it should have been done years ago against the Assad regime and the blatant humanitarian crisis it was causing including verified use of chemical weapons.

Yes maybe allying with the Kurds was the necessary and inconvenient truth at the time, but there is no role for the U.S. today and certainly the nonsense of constant stalling Turkey from acting against terror.

Even the UN secretary-general has suggested the proposed Turkish wide buffer zone is a preferable option and could lead to the resettlement of refugees stuck in Turkey today.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:40 am

casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
casinterest wrote:

So Syria will now be even more of a pawn of Russia and Iran. I guess that is Trump's real interest. To keep selling out US interests in the Middle East and making it less stable .


Weren't the US party to the initial destabilisation of Syria in the first instance? Isn't this another mess of your making?? Weren't the Arab Spring movements mostly US backed???


So it was OK to continue to back a corrupt dictator that used chemical weapons on his own people? No it was absolutely correct so support the Arab Spring. The issue was that Iran and Russia came in on the side of Assad. If the US backs out now, then we have given up on democracy.


The Arab Spring movement is basically a huge failure, with the except of Tunisia it's been a utter failure, resulting in significant death and destruction. If the US cared about democracy wtf are they supporting Arab Monarchies in Bahrain, KSA and Kuwait?
 
Kiwirob
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:43 am

mercure1 wrote:
It was always going to be problematic for the U.S to side with the Kurds which the U.S. itself in official documents call a terrorist group.

Sooner or later this relationship was going to end, and might as well be now and let the Turks finally clean up the mess.


It's going to be fun watching the Turks try and "clean up the mess" against battle hardened, highly experienced and committed Kurds fighting for their homeland, the words blood and bath come to mind.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:50 am

Pyrex wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
janders wrote:
The Kurds are nothing more than a terrorist group themselves which we coopted for convenience sake and used them when it fit the narrative.
Time has not changed the fact of who these Kurdish fighters really are and it’s time to move on and not get in the way of the Turks to secure their borders better. The U.S should not have gotten in bed with these bad apples to begin with and long overdue we don’t prop them up either.


What do you think the Israelis were before the West gave them a country? The US got into bed with them and continue to prop them up as well.


The West did not "give Israel a country", Israel is an independent country because they fought 3 total wars (as in, "the result of losing is your entire people get completely slaughtered") in the space of 19 years, by themselves, against overwhelmingly superior opponents, and won them all. No other country in the world can claim anything close to that. In the first one, in 1948, the West (as in Britain) was actively fighting against them, supplying Israel's enemies and providing them with intelligence and even manpower. In the second one, in 1967, the only Western country providing them any sort of military support at the time (France, through military hardware) actually pulled back all supplies and spares. In the third one, in 1973, they did have some new toys from the U.S. (vastly less than what the Soviet Union was providing it's enemies), but had to fight it all on their own.


So you're rewriting history, the only reason Israel exists today is because the victors after WW2 made it exist, it's been a thorn in the side of peace in the middle east since its inception. The 3 wars you mention would never have been fought if Israel hadn't been created. I would argue if the precedent set by the forced creation of Israel is accepted by all then the 40 or so million Kurds who have also been fighting for centuries for a homeland also deserve one.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:18 am

Kiwirob wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
It was always going to be problematic for the U.S to side with the Kurds which the U.S. itself in official documents call a terrorist group.

Sooner or later this relationship was going to end, and might as well be now and let the Turks finally clean up the mess.


It's going to be fun watching the Turks try and "clean up the mess" against battle hardened, highly experienced and committed Kurds fighting for their homeland, the words blood and bath come to mind.


Fun? I would not describe this in that way. Human suffering, yes, especially taken into account how the Kurds are treated in Turkey.
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Dutchy
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:23 am

anrec80 wrote:
janders wrote:
The Kurds are nothing more than a terrorist group themselves which we coopted for convenience sake and used them when it fit the narrative.
Time has not changed the fact of who these Kurdish fighters really are and it’s time to move on and not get in the way of the Turks to secure their borders better. The U.S should not have gotten in bed with these bad apples to begin with and long overdue we don’t prop them up either.


The Kurds are a quite large (40 million AFAIR) ethnic group, living in Syria, Iraq and Turkey, and they do not have their own state. Given the way the things are, I think it’s best for them if the world community and regional powers stabilize those countries, and have them negotiate agreements that would allow Kurds to live anywhere in Kurdish autonomous areas of any country, work there and travel around freely.


That is a flip flop argumentation if you look at your clapping and cheering in Crimea, that was all about the "people" there and their will to "join" Russia. I see you have very flexible morals, as is needed to defend Putin and we all know that Putin is very vested in Syria.
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Kiwirob
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:18 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
mercure1 wrote:
It was always going to be problematic for the U.S to side with the Kurds which the U.S. itself in official documents call a terrorist group.

Sooner or later this relationship was going to end, and might as well be now and let the Turks finally clean up the mess.


It's going to be fun watching the Turks try and "clean up the mess" against battle hardened, highly experienced and committed Kurds fighting for their homeland, the words blood and bath come to mind.


Fun? I would not describe this in that way. Human suffering, yes, especially taken into account how the Kurds are treated in Turkey.


Fun as in it's not going to be a lot of fun for the Turks, the Kurds are pretty good at fighting, they have years of experience behind them and they are fighting for their existence. Lots of people will die, it will be a war after all, and I think there's a pretty good chance Turkey will eventually back away because they won't want to sustain the casualties, or if they ratchet it up to an all out invasion I doubt the world will look the other way.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:40 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

Weren't the US party to the initial destabilisation of Syria in the first instance? Isn't this another mess of your making?? Weren't the Arab Spring movements mostly US backed???


So it was OK to continue to back a corrupt dictator that used chemical weapons on his own people? No it was absolutely correct so support the Arab Spring. The issue was that Iran and Russia came in on the side of Assad. If the US backs out now, then we have given up on democracy.


The Arab Spring movement is basically a huge failure, with the except of Tunisia it's been a utter failure, resulting in significant death and destruction. If the US cared about democracy wtf are they supporting Arab Monarchies in Bahrain, KSA and Kuwait?


'because petrodollars. After all, democracy is only convenient when it's making money.
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Aaron747
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:41 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Pyrex wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

What do you think the Israelis were before the West gave them a country? The US got into bed with them and continue to prop them up as well.


The West did not "give Israel a country", Israel is an independent country because they fought 3 total wars (as in, "the result of losing is your entire people get completely slaughtered") in the space of 19 years, by themselves, against overwhelmingly superior opponents, and won them all. No other country in the world can claim anything close to that. In the first one, in 1948, the West (as in Britain) was actively fighting against them, supplying Israel's enemies and providing them with intelligence and even manpower. In the second one, in 1967, the only Western country providing them any sort of military support at the time (France, through military hardware) actually pulled back all supplies and spares. In the third one, in 1973, they did have some new toys from the U.S. (vastly less than what the Soviet Union was providing it's enemies), but had to fight it all on their own.


So you're rewriting history, the only reason Israel exists today is because the victors after WW2 made it exist, it's been a thorn in the side of peace in the middle east since its inception. The 3 wars you mention would never have been fought if Israel hadn't been created. I would argue if the precedent set by the forced creation of Israel is accepted by all then the 40 or so million Kurds who have also been fighting for centuries for a homeland also deserve one.


The Kurdish population exceeds Australia and Canada by a significant margin - you make an excellent and logical argument.
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Pyrex
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 12:48 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Pyrex wrote:

The West did not "give Israel a country", Israel is an independent country because they fought 3 total wars (as in, "the result of losing is your entire people get completely slaughtered") in the space of 19 years, by themselves, against overwhelmingly superior opponents, and won them all. No other country in the world can claim anything close to that. In the first one, in 1948, the West (as in Britain) was actively fighting against them, supplying Israel's enemies and providing them with intelligence and even manpower. In the second one, in 1967, the only Western country providing them any sort of military support at the time (France, through military hardware) actually pulled back all supplies and spares. In the third one, in 1973, they did have some new toys from the U.S. (vastly less than what the Soviet Union was providing it's enemies), but had to fight it all on their own.


So you're rewriting history, the only reason Israel exists today is because the victors after WW2 made it exist, it's been a thorn in the side of peace in the middle east since its inception. The 3 wars you mention would never have been fought if Israel hadn't been created. I would argue if the precedent set by the forced creation of Israel is accepted by all then the 40 or so million Kurds who have also been fighting for centuries for a homeland also deserve one.


The Kurdish population exceeds Australia and Canada by a significant margin - you make an excellent and logical argument.


Amazing how he provided his own counter-argument, isn't it?
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:20 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
casinterest wrote:

So it was OK to continue to back a corrupt dictator that used chemical weapons on his own people? No it was absolutely correct so support the Arab Spring. The issue was that Iran and Russia came in on the side of Assad. If the US backs out now, then we have given up on democracy.


The Arab Spring movement is basically a huge failure, with the except of Tunisia it's been a utter failure, resulting in significant death and destruction. If the US cared about democracy wtf are they supporting Arab Monarchies in Bahrain, KSA and Kuwait?


'because petrodollars. After all, democracy is only convenient when it's making money.


Well Petro is part of the problem really. Those countries that didn't make it out of the Arab spring have limited economies and strong dicatator legacies. The US never threw enough at them, with the GOP concerned about a budget ( imagine that), and in the end bad guys took over. Tunisia has taken a strep forward.
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Kiwirob
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:24 pm

Pyrex wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

So you're rewriting history, the only reason Israel exists today is because the victors after WW2 made it exist, it's been a thorn in the side of peace in the middle east since its inception. The 3 wars you mention would never have been fought if Israel hadn't been created. I would argue if the precedent set by the forced creation of Israel is accepted by all then the 40 or so million Kurds who have also been fighting for centuries for a homeland also deserve one.


The Kurdish population exceeds Australia and Canada by a significant margin - you make an excellent and logical argument.


Amazing how he provided his own counter-argument, isn't it?


The Jewish population in prior to WW2 was small, after WW2 it was even smaller, it didn't warrant a land to call their own. The core Jewish population today is less than 15 million people, of which only 6m live in Israel, this piss all compared to nearly 40m.

It beggars belief that an ethnic group of this size, living in the same geographic location don't have their own country.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:05 pm

And Now Turkey Attacks.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/09/politics ... index.html

"I told Turkey if they do anything outside of what we think is humane ... they could suffer the wrath of an extremely decimated economy," the President said.
Turkish Vice President Fuat Oktay said his country won't "bow to threats" in an apparent response to Trump's warning.
"Turkey will teach a lesson to terror organizations that threatens our southern border and we will give an opportunity for Syrian refugees who are currently in Turkey," Oktay said. "Our message to international community is clear. Turkey is not a country that will bow to threats."



Anyone know where Trump's Red Line is ?
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Aaron747
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:24 pm

casinterest wrote:
And Now Turkey Attacks.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/09/politics ... index.html

"I told Turkey if they do anything outside of what we think is humane ... they could suffer the wrath of an extremely decimated economy," the President said.
Turkish Vice President Fuat Oktay said his country won't "bow to threats" in an apparent response to Trump's warning.
"Turkey will teach a lesson to terror organizations that threatens our southern border and we will give an opportunity for Syrian refugees who are currently in Turkey," Oktay said. "Our message to international community is clear. Turkey is not a country that will bow to threats."



Anyone know where Trump's Red Line is ?


Who can tell? Oh great wise one doesn't even read intelligence briefings or policy backgrounder documents.
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alfa164
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:52 pm

casinterest wrote:
Well Petro is part of the problem really. Those countries that didn't make it out of the Arab spring have limited economies and strong dicatator legacies. The US never threw enough at them, with the GOP concerned about a budget ( imagine that), and in the end bad guys took over. Tunisia has taken a strep forward.


Petro seems to be only part of the problem; Trump's own personal interests are tied-up in that area, too:

"I have a little conflict of interest, because I have a major, major building in Istanbul. It’s called Trump Towers. Two towers, instead of one. Not the usual one, it’s two."

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/11/trumps-middle-east-business-deals-raise-ethical-concerns

"Saudi Arabia, I like the Saudis," Trump said at a July 2015 rally. "I make a lot of money with them. They buy all sorts of my stuff. All kinds of toys from Trump. They pay me millions and hundred of millions."

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/oct/18/donald-trump/donald-trumps-claim-no-financial-interests-saudi-a/

"President Donald Trump collects money directly from foreign governments. He does this when overseas governments (and foreign corporations and persons) spend money at his hotels."

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/01/donald-trump-hotel-kuwait-government-emoluments/
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Aaron747
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:54 pm

alfa164 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Well Petro is part of the problem really. Those countries that didn't make it out of the Arab spring have limited economies and strong dicatator legacies. The US never threw enough at them, with the GOP concerned about a budget ( imagine that), and in the end bad guys took over. Tunisia has taken a strep forward.


Petro seems to be only part of the problem; Trump's own personal interests are tied-up in that area, too:

"I have a little conflict of interest, because I have a major, major building in Istanbul. It’s called Trump Towers. Two towers, instead of one. Not the usual one, it’s two."

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/11/trumps-middle-east-business-deals-raise-ethical-concerns

"Saudi Arabia, I like the Saudis," Trump said at a July 2015 rally. "I make a lot of money with them. They buy all sorts of my stuff. All kinds of toys from Trump. They pay me millions and hundred of millions."

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/oct/18/donald-trump/donald-trumps-claim-no-financial-interests-saudi-a/

"President Donald Trump collects money directly from foreign governments. He does this when overseas governments (and foreign corporations and persons) spend money at his hotels."

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/01/donald-trump-hotel-kuwait-government-emoluments/


It isn't just 45 and his private interests though - 44 and 43 protected the sandbox royalty just as reliably.
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:19 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Well Petro is part of the problem really. Those countries that didn't make it out of the Arab spring have limited economies and strong dicatator legacies. The US never threw enough at them, with the GOP concerned about a budget ( imagine that), and in the end bad guys took over. Tunisia has taken a strep forward.


Petro seems to be only part of the problem; Trump's own personal interests are tied-up in that area, too:

"I have a little conflict of interest, because I have a major, major building in Istanbul. It’s called Trump Towers. Two towers, instead of one. Not the usual one, it’s two."

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/11/trumps-middle-east-business-deals-raise-ethical-concerns

"Saudi Arabia, I like the Saudis," Trump said at a July 2015 rally. "I make a lot of money with them. They buy all sorts of my stuff. All kinds of toys from Trump. They pay me millions and hundred of millions."

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/oct/18/donald-trump/donald-trumps-claim-no-financial-interests-saudi-a/

"President Donald Trump collects money directly from foreign governments. He does this when overseas governments (and foreign corporations and persons) spend money at his hotels."

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2019/01/donald-trump-hotel-kuwait-government-emoluments/


It isn't just 45 and his private interests though - 44 and 43 protected the sandbox royalty just as reliably.


And this is true, although 44 tried to back the uprisings, but budget.
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:22 pm

trpmb6 wrote:

A withdrawal in peace looks a lot better than withdrawing to allow a genocide. It seems to me the US is abandoning an ally that helped fight ISIS. Will we all pay the price with another newer form of ISIS in the next 20 years?
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anrec80
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:01 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
It's going to be fun watching the Turks try and "clean up the mess" against battle hardened, highly experienced and committed Kurds fighting for their homeland, the words blood and bath come to mind.


It’s not going to be a lot of fun, it’s going to be a lot of mess. Middle East is a very complicated region. Turkish side needs to figure out how are they going to live with Kurds in one country, if they want Kurds populated territories of course.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:09 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:

A withdrawal in peace looks a lot better than withdrawing to allow a genocide. It seems to me the US is abandoning an ally that helped fight ISIS. Will we all pay the price with another newer form of ISIS in the next 20 years?


You and I both know that is really simplifying it. Kurds are an ally we've been arming. They've been attacking sites in Turkey. Turkey is a NATO ally. A bad NATO ally. We've allied ourselves with both sides and we've only ourselves to blame for this.

What we need to do is support the kurds and rally our NATO allies to condemn the actions of Turkey. And we can do that while we withdraw from Syria.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:12 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:

A withdrawal in peace looks a lot better than withdrawing to allow a genocide. It seems to me the US is abandoning an ally that helped fight ISIS. Will we all pay the price with another newer form of ISIS in the next 20 years?


You and I both know that is really simplifying it. Kurds are an ally we've been arming. They've been attacking sites in Turkey. Turkey is a NATO ally. A bad NATO ally. We've allied ourselves with both sides and we've only ourselves to blame for this.

What we need to do is support the kurds and rally our NATO allies to condemn the actions of Turkey. And we can do that while we withdraw from Syria.


Well we could if there was anyone left in the State Department that actually thinks about these things anymore. Trump's call to withdraw only came after a call with Turkey. Not with NATO, which Trump openly despises. The result is a mess. Even Lindsey Graham is pissed off.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:09 pm

So what would happen if it all goes tits up for Turkey and the Kurds give them a well deserved hiding, if Turkey decided to enact NATO article 5 would anyone come to their aid? For most Euro members of NATO it would be political suicide to help.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:29 pm

casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
A withdrawal in peace looks a lot better than withdrawing to allow a genocide. It seems to me the US is abandoning an ally that helped fight ISIS. Will we all pay the price with another newer form of ISIS in the next 20 years?


You and I both know that is really simplifying it. Kurds are an ally we've been arming. They've been attacking sites in Turkey. Turkey is a NATO ally. A bad NATO ally. We've allied ourselves with both sides and we've only ourselves to blame for this.

What we need to do is support the kurds and rally our NATO allies to condemn the actions of Turkey. And we can do that while we withdraw from Syria.


Well we could if there was anyone left in the State Department that actually thinks about these things anymore. Trump's call to withdraw only came after a call with Turkey. Not with NATO, which Trump openly despises. The result is a mess. Even Lindsey Graham is pissed off.


Trump has accomplished a miracle. He's managed to unite the democrats and the neo-cons of the republican party. Who'dve thunk.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:46 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:

You and I both know that is really simplifying it. Kurds are an ally we've been arming. They've been attacking sites in Turkey. Turkey is a NATO ally. A bad NATO ally. We've allied ourselves with both sides and we've only ourselves to blame for this.

What we need to do is support the kurds and rally our NATO allies to condemn the actions of Turkey. And we can do that while we withdraw from Syria.


Well we could if there was anyone left in the State Department that actually thinks about these things anymore. Trump's call to withdraw only came after a call with Turkey. Not with NATO, which Trump openly despises. The result is a mess. Even Lindsey Graham is pissed off.


Trump has accomplished a miracle. He's managed to unite the democrats and the neo-cons of the republican party. Who'dve thunk.


The only ones happy with the pullout are the nationalist. These are the same type of folks that brought us WW2.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:50 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
So what would happen if it all goes tits up for Turkey and the Kurds give them a well deserved hiding, if Turkey decided to enact NATO article 5 would anyone come to their aid? For most Euro members of NATO it would be political suicide to help.


NATO is defence of nature, Turkey is on the offence, so no article 50 can't be triggered.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:02 pm

Except the only time article 5 was used the US was on the offensive, there was nothing defensive about any of the last 20 years worth of US aggression.
 
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casinterest
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:04 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Except the only time article 5 was used the US was on the offensive, there was nothing defensive about any of the last 20 years worth of US aggression.


Article 5 was invoked on Sept 12, 2001. The US was not on the offensive, and was not the aggressor.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:19 pm

American troops have been working with the Kurds to fight ISIS. Now that the Kurds have been left for slaughter, what is to stop ISIS and why will the Kurds trust the United States?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
anrec80
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:13 pm

Dutchy wrote:
NATO is defence of nature, Turkey is on the offence, so no article 50 can't be triggered.


NATO is about defense - really? Serbia 99 - was that also defense? And Libya 2011 - defense from whom that was?
 
anrec80
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:45 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Indeed, you are only advocating it if it is in the interest of the Putin regime and the Putin regime is supporting it. No worries, everyone knows were your loyalties lie and that's why you are here on this thread as well.


Even Russia isn’t as greedy and bloodthirsty as you think. Russia doesn’t chase takes away anyone’s territories - some really extreme situations are exempt, true. But only real extreme ones.
 
alfa164
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:59 am

seb146 wrote:
American troops have been working with the Kurds to fight ISIS. Now that the Kurds have been left for slaughter, what is to stop ISIS and why will the Kurds trust the United States?


1) There is no one to stop ISIS; and 2) the Kurds - righty - will no longer trust the United States.

More generally, as long as this administration is in office, no country of group of allies will ever trust the United States.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:33 am

Trump just said that "the Kurds weren't helping in Normandy", and in lots of "other places."

If I had a dog that suffered that much, I'd euthanize the animal...
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
jetwet1
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:38 am

alfa164 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
American troops have been working with the Kurds to fight ISIS. Now that the Kurds have been left for slaughter, what is to stop ISIS and why will the Kurds trust the United States?


1) There is no one to stop ISIS; and 2) the Kurds - righty - will no longer trust the United States.

More generally, as long as this administration is in office, no country of group of allies will ever trust the United States.


Pretty much sums it up.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:31 am

I'm glad we're leaving. So thankful that we're not pursuing the failed "Nation-Building" of the Bush Presidency.

But I understand the Left needing to highlight any and all negative aspects and to to diminish and downplay ANY move that that their nemesis DJT makes.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
Jetty
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:34 am

Kiwirob wrote:
So what would happen if it all goes tits up for Turkey and the Kurds give them a well deserved hiding, if Turkey decided to enact NATO article 5 would anyone come to their aid? For most Euro members of NATO it would be political suicide to help.

Unthinkable, at least for some countries. A majority in The Netherlands i.e. support sanctions and a weapon embargo against Turkey. The Kurds have a positive image, while most people think very unfavorable about Turkey and it’s people, and especially Erdogan. We will quit NATO before losing a single life in defense of Turkey against the Kurds.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:36 am

Escaping ISIS prisoners could lead to a calphiate being reestablished and resumption of large numbers of terrorist attacks in Tunisia, Europe, Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, the United States, and other locations around the world. Would be a return to violent conditions seen in 2016 that we hope will not happen again.
 
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seb146
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Re: The Glorious Withdrawal from Northern Syria, 2019

Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:43 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
I'm glad we're leaving. So thankful that we're not pursuing the failed "Nation-Building" of the Bush Presidency.

But I understand the Left needing to highlight any and all negative aspects and to to diminish and downplay ANY move that that their nemesis DJT makes.


Yeah, but no. This has nothing to do with left v. right. This has nothing to do with nation building. This was just a man claiming to be a leader fawning over power hungry men like Erdogan and Kim and Putin and wanting to be like them. He is using "I am the president so I am above the law" defense.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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