AA7295
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Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:16 pm

Hello all,

I just read this: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49958628 and it basically states that the selling and purchasing of citizenships by countries is now a big business.

I'm against this for a few reasons:
- Citizenship is wrong to be sold - it's an honourable thing to have earned. I am all for immigration when someone moves to a new country for 5+ years and invested their time and craft there, paid taxes they should be rewarded with it.
- Modern western governments are the first to dismiss illegal immigrants/refugees and label them as "queue jumpers", however someone fortunate enough to have money can
- Poses a security risk - If someone say purchases a citizenship, say Malta for example, they now have unrestricted access to all of Europe and can now enter the US, Canada, Australia, NZ visa-free?

What are your thoughts A.net?
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:41 pm

AA7295 wrote:
Hello all,

I just read this: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49958628 and it basically states that the selling and purchasing of citizenships by countries is now a big business.


Wrong or OK?

Confounding. There is not a reason to do that unless one is under particular duress at home. This would be a waste of one's resources and time in most cases. But if it is available as a product, there is no reason not to. Just does not seem like something that would be worthwhile anywhere.

AA7295 wrote:
- Poses a security risk - If someone say purchases a citizenship, say Malta for example, they now have unrestricted access to all of Europe and can now enter the US, Canada, Australia, NZ visa-free?


No.

Having a citizenship in a visa-waiver status nation does not automatically confer this. There are databases that flag certain citizens and it is beyond likely that a new citizen of, say Malta, would trigger that. In fact, there are a lot of things that can cause a denial of entry. Canada will not let someone in with a DUI/OUI under most circumstances. Even coming from the US. . .
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
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OA260
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:36 pm

Selling it for $384,000 as in the case of Portugal is wrong IMHO. If they are going to sell it then it should be at least EUR2.5 million. That way it is more of an exception to the rule and less would be sold but at least money would be invested into the country. Also full background checks and anyone with even so much as one criminal conviction whatever the crime should be automatically excluded.

Agree that 5 years working in a country and paying taxes is another avenue that is fair.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:36 pm

AA7295 wrote:
- Poses a security risk - If someone say purchases a citizenship, say Malta for example, they now have unrestricted access to all of Europe and can now enter the US, Canada, Australia, NZ visa-free?

What are your thoughts A.net?


Funny you should mention NZ, we sell our citizenship as well. Peter Thiel bought his, he’s spent 12 days in NZ and it cost him 7m NZD.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:56 pm

AA7295 wrote:
Hello all,

I just read this: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49958628 and it basically states that the selling and purchasing of citizenships by countries is now a big business.

I'm against this for a few reasons:
- Citizenship is wrong to be sold - it's an honourable thing to have earned. I am all for immigration when someone moves to a new country for 5+ years and invested their time and craft there, paid taxes they should be rewarded with it.
- Modern western governments are the first to dismiss illegal immigrants/refugees and label them as "queue jumpers", however someone fortunate enough to have money can
- Poses a security risk - If someone say purchases a citizenship, say Malta for example, they now have unrestricted access to all of Europe and can now enter the US, Canada, Australia, NZ visa-free?

What are your thoughts A.net?


- “honourable thing to have earned”? The only people who “earn” it are immigrants. The vast majority of citizenships are conferred by the lottery of birth. Not convinced that obtaining citizenship by virtue of being born in a country you obviously haven’t chosen pre-birth makes that citizenship or process honorable. The only way to honourably earn a citizenship is by applying for it at the age of 18/21/25 whatever. Otherwise citizenship is no more or less honorable than the good or bad looks one has inherited.

- On selling it, we all theoretically want high skilled workers etc to come make our economy richer. How is this different?

- The queue jumping issue is a non-starter. It assumes that the process of determining who “deserves” to be citizenship is based on anything other than their economic value. Mother Theresa wouldn’t qualify for PR status/citizenship in most western countries on account of her economic assets or lack thereof today. Aside from refugees (also derided as queue jumpers) whose plight we are sympathetic to every now and then, we - as societies and governments- view immigrants strictly through an economic lens. They’re still outsiders to/“othered” by many of their locally-born compatriots.

- Safety is a non-issue. Border controls still apply.

Thoughts? Non-issue. Many western countries have an investor-class route to citizenship. It’s as honorable as any other.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:26 am

To me it's up to governments to decide, especially in democratic countries, however this happening in the EU is problematic, since you then become an EU citizen, free to live anywhere in the EU. It's also true of people getting an EU citizenship any other way, though, and why immigration and asylum should become an EU power.
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Aesma
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:34 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Thoughts? Non-issue. Many western countries have an investor-class route to citizenship. It’s as honorable as any other.


It's not the same thing. Investing in the country, then getting the citizenship after 5 or 10 years of legal residence through that investment, is fine by me. Getting it outright with a check is another story.

I'm going to the US in a couple of weeks for the wedding of a cousin, he has been living there since age 10 and is now 24, his parents were such investors, they started a business and hired locals, it's still going good, yet his mother ended up getting her citizenship through marriage (after divorcing my uncle), and the cousin is doing just that : despite 14 years of legal residency he was still not a US citizen. And his stepfather is a US lawyer !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
offloaded
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:21 am

OA260 wrote:
Selling it for $384,000 as in the case of Portugal is wrong IMHO. If they are going to sell it then it should be at least EUR2.5 million. That way it is more of an exception to the rule and less would be sold but at least money would be invested into the country. Also full background checks and anyone with even so much as one criminal conviction whatever the crime should be automatically excluded.

Agree that 5 years working in a country and paying taxes is another avenue that is fair.


I wouldn't mind so much if it was required to be invested in a business. The "investment" can be (and usually is) in a property.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:40 am

Aesma wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Thoughts? Non-issue. Many western countries have an investor-class route to citizenship. It’s as honorable as any other.


It's not the same thing. Investing in the country, then getting the citizenship after 5 or 10 years of legal residence through that investment, is fine by me. Getting it outright with a check is another story.

I'm going to the US in a couple of weeks for the wedding of a cousin, he has been living there since age 10 and is now 24, his parents were such investors, they started a business and hired locals, it's still going good, yet his mother ended up getting her citizenship through marriage (after divorcing my uncle), and the cousin is doing just that : despite 14 years of legal residency he was still not a US citizen. And his stepfather is a US lawyer !


How is getting it outright by cheque any different to getting it through the lottery of birth / parents citizenship?

All I can deduce from your story is that immigrants who wish to obtain a citizenship (such as your cousin) are held to a tougher standard than those who are born into that citizenship.

Since there are different standards/criteria for obtaining the exact same citizenship - only a few of which actually take an individual’s talents, values or merits into account - it seems to me that attaching a value judgment - such as “honorable” - to the process of obtaining citizenship is pointless.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:01 pm

AA7295 wrote:
- Poses a security risk - If someone say purchases a citizenship, say Malta for example, they now have unrestricted access to all of Europe and can now enter the US, Canada, Australia, NZ visa-free?

Malta requires substantial investment in property and government bonds, residency and a squeaky clean criminal record. Even with those conditions met, it still doesn't guarantee citizenship.
Maltese citizens can enter the countries listed visa free, it makes no difference how citizenship was obtained. As long as it was legal, they are a citizen of the country and have the same rights.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:54 pm

It's a scummy practice usually done by scummy countries and nearly always attracts scummy individuals.

An acquaintance's father did this a few years ago. Moved here. Bought himself and family citizenship through investment (IE purchasing a lot of real estate). Now he can't be extradited back to Fujian Province (or was it Fuzhou??) where he's wanted for fraud that was committed during his time as a financial comptroller for a city government there.

Background checks are a joke for people who are connected.

Aesma wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Thoughts? Non-issue. Many western countries have an investor-class route to citizenship. It’s as honorable as any other.


It's not the same thing. Investing in the country, then getting the citizenship after 5 or 10 years of legal residence through that investment, is fine by me. Getting it outright with a check is another story.

:checkmark: Outright disgusting actually. The rich should have to play by the same rules as everyone else. Why should they be able to skip the citizenship test?

offloaded wrote:
I wouldn't mind so much if it was required to be invested in a business. The "investment" can be (and usually is) in a property.

:checkmark: Or government bonds.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:03 pm

I think people buy citizenship for three reasons

1) Tax avoidance
2) Extradition avoidence
3) Avail visa waiver benefit.

I think for rich #3 is the least important reason because if you are a rich person from a crappy country, you enjoy the best at home and the west always welcomes you and your money. I doubt their citizenship hinders their travel.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:19 pm

zkojq wrote:
It's a scummy practice usually done by scummy countries and nearly always attracts scummy individuals.

An acquaintance's father did this a few years ago. Moved here. Bought himself and family citizenship through investment (IE purchasing a lot of real estate). Now he can't be extradited back to Fujian Province (or was it Fuzhou??) where he's wanted for fraud that was committed during his time as a financial comptroller for a city government there.

Background checks are a joke for people who are connected.

Aesma wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Thoughts? Non-issue. Many western countries have an investor-class route to citizenship. It’s as honorable as any other.


It's not the same thing. Investing in the country, then getting the citizenship after 5 or 10 years of legal residence through that investment, is fine by me. Getting it outright with a check is another story.

:checkmark: Outright disgusting actually. The rich should have to play by the same rules as everyone else. Why should they be able to skip the citizenship test?

offloaded wrote:
I wouldn't mind so much if it was required to be invested in a business. The "investment" can be (and usually is) in a property.

:checkmark: Or government bonds.


- Lets not assume that the investor-class, or rich people, are inherently crooks. The majority of them are clean but want a change of scenery, environment, political system etc. A rich Hong-Konger leaving HK now doesn’t really have to justify wanting to leave/obtaining another citizenship these days, does he/she?

- The issue then is that they don’t have to go through the same process as others. This is contingent on proving economic value. Buying lots of real estate is still lining a local developer/residents pocket. Why is it wrong to take a shortcut around a process that the vast, vast majority of any country’s population aren’t subject to anyway. There are plenty of scummy people in every country who get citizenship anyway because of where they were born or who they were born to. For the most part, you and I don’t have to prove our citizenship cred in the countries we are born in. Its not a requirement for citizenship if you meet certain criteria. All we’re talking about here is adding high value net worth to that criteria. It’s no more or less arbitrary than simply being born within a certain set of borders.

- Citizenship tests are theatre. They’re easy to the point of being pointless. Just an extra bureaucratic hurdle for the sake of ascribing value to the process of “earning” citizenship. Anybody who’s been working in a country and doesn’t intend to leave has a legitimate claim to it anyway. Could be 1 year. Or 3 years. Or 5 years. Or whatever - even these time periods are arbitrary. You can still end up with scummy citizens at the end of the process.

- That’s not to say that I’m in favour of open borders. We just need to be honest about the criteria. We all want high skilled, high net value people coming in because that answers the “what’s in it for us” question (more money in the economy, economic growth). Might as well be honest and leave it at that. How they obtain it is a technicality no better or worse than the lottery of birth.
 
Redd
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:39 pm

zkojq wrote:
It's a scummy practice usually done by scummy countries and nearly always attracts scummy individuals.


Meanwhile in Canada......

Under the terms of the program, applicants with a net worth of over C$1.6 million (US $1.5 million) agreed to give the Canadian government an interest-free, C$800,000 loan for five years in exchange for a resident visa that could lead to citizenship.

https://qz.com/176309/now-searching-for ... -canadian/

But it looks like they're scrapping the program.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:56 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
How is getting it outright by cheque any different to getting it through the lottery of birth / parents citizenship?

Because the parents have lived in and are contributing in the nation of citizenship. At least that is the ideal.

Birthright citizenship also importantly prevents massive scales of stateless "non-citizen people" that could otherwise occur (this is an issue already in some places for people who are citizens of one nation but living in another. When birthright citizenship is not allowed the issue of statelessness can arise). Jus Solis is an aspect of this and of course the USA is known for it. While I agree in general with it there are problems as well that is creates that requires addressing.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:32 pm

Redd wrote:
zkojq wrote:
It's a scummy practice usually done by scummy countries and nearly always attracts scummy individuals.


Meanwhile in Canada......

Under the terms of the program, applicants with a net worth of over C$1.6 million (US $1.5 million) agreed to give the Canadian government an interest-free, C$800,000 loan for five years in exchange for a resident visa that could lead to citizenship.

https://qz.com/176309/now-searching-for ... -canadian/

But it looks like they're scrapping the program.


Ummm, that’s a residency visa, not citizenship.

They still have to meet citizenship criteria to get citizenship (live in the country, pay taxes etc). Probably contribute more economically than many of their fellow citizens do in a lifetime.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:42 pm

Tugger wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
How is getting it outright by cheque any different to getting it through the lottery of birth / parents citizenship?

Because the parents have lived in and are contributing in the nation of citizenship. At least that is the ideal.

Birthright citizenship also importantly prevents massive scales of stateless "non-citizen people" that could otherwise occur (this is an issue already in some places for people who are citizens of one nation but living in another. When birthright citizenship is not allowed the issue of statelessness can arise). Jus Solis is an aspect of this and of course the USA is known for it. While I agree in general with it there are problems as well that is creates that requires addressing.

Tugg


Not really disagreeing. Just noting that the notion of obtaining citizenship through an “honourable” manner doesn’t sit well with the fact that most citizenships are acquired on very limited criteria. After all, a child is given citizenship regardless of of whether his parents were net positive or negative contributors (criminals, delinquents etc).

Birthright citizenship is fine in my book. Just find it really, really weird when birthright citizens think they’re in a position to comment on how “honourably” their fellow citizens have “earned” their citizenship when they themselves have inherited it. After all, it raises that nuisance question: how many birthright citizens would meet the criteria of citizenship in their own country if it was applied to them?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:10 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Tugger wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
How is getting it outright by cheque any different to getting it through the lottery of birth / parents citizenship?

Because the parents have lived in and are contributing in the nation of citizenship. At least that is the ideal.

Birthright citizenship also importantly prevents massive scales of stateless "non-citizen people" that could otherwise occur (this is an issue already in some places for people who are citizens of one nation but living in another. When birthright citizenship is not allowed the issue of statelessness can arise). Jus Solis is an aspect of this and of course the USA is known for it. While I agree in general with it there are problems as well that is creates that requires addressing.

Tugg


Not really disagreeing. Just noting that the notion of obtaining citizenship through an “honourable” manner doesn’t sit well with the fact that most citizenships are acquired on very limited criteria. After all, a child is given citizenship regardless of of whether his parents were net positive or negative contributors (criminals, delinquents etc).

Birthright citizenship is fine in my book. Just find it really, really weird when birthright citizens think they’re in a position to comment on how “honourably” their fellow citizens have “earned” their citizenship when they themselves have inherited it. After all, it raises that nuisance question: how many birthright citizens would meet the criteria of citizenship in their own country if it was applied to them?

I am curious: DO "purchased citizenships" require the same classes and tests to be passed for those doing it?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:32 pm

Tugger wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Because the parents have lived in and are contributing in the nation of citizenship. At least that is the ideal.

Birthright citizenship also importantly prevents massive scales of stateless "non-citizen people" that could otherwise occur (this is an issue already in some places for people who are citizens of one nation but living in another. When birthright citizenship is not allowed the issue of statelessness can arise). Jus Solis is an aspect of this and of course the USA is known for it. While I agree in general with it there are problems as well that is creates that requires addressing.

Tugg


Not really disagreeing. Just noting that the notion of obtaining citizenship through an “honourable” manner doesn’t sit well with the fact that most citizenships are acquired on very limited criteria. After all, a child is given citizenship regardless of of whether his parents were net positive or negative contributors (criminals, delinquents etc).

Birthright citizenship is fine in my book. Just find it really, really weird when birthright citizens think they’re in a position to comment on how “honourably” their fellow citizens have “earned” their citizenship when they themselves have inherited it. After all, it raises that nuisance question: how many birthright citizens would meet the criteria of citizenship in their own country if it was applied to them?

I am curious: DO "purchased citizenships" require the same classes and tests to be passed for those doing it?

Tugg


When I try to buy a citizenship, I’ll let you know :D.

That said, depends on the country. The Canadian one mentioned above allows you to “buy” permanent residency. You then have to fulfill citizenship requirements (residence in country, employment, citizenship tests etc). I suspect this is the case for most countries with longstanding immigration programs (US, UK, AUS, FRA) etc. YMMV with some of the newer Eastern European nations and African nations.
 
bhill
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:08 pm

Perhaps one of two ways if not born in the country.
1) Federal Service for X years..like the military
2) Peace Corp for X years or what ever your country uses.

As for the comment about waiting until you are a certain age and applying....what if the application is denied? Then what?
And the difference between a check and lottery is chance. Regardless of wealth...
Carpe Pices
 
Redd
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:58 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Redd wrote:
zkojq wrote:
It's a scummy practice usually done by scummy countries and nearly always attracts scummy individuals.


Meanwhile in Canada......

Under the terms of the program, applicants with a net worth of over C$1.6 million (US $1.5 million) agreed to give the Canadian government an interest-free, C$800,000 loan for five years in exchange for a resident visa that could lead to citizenship.

https://qz.com/176309/now-searching-for ... -canadian/

But it looks like they're scrapping the program.


Ummm, that’s a residency visa, not citizenship.

They still have to meet citizenship criteria to get citizenship (live in the country, pay taxes etc). Probably contribute more economically than many of their fellow citizens do in a lifetime.


It's just a way of avoiding the embarrassment of selling citizenship. There is an understanding that the participants will receive it after 5 years, a quick and easy way into Canada if you have the money to lend, interest-free, to the government.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Sat Oct 12, 2019 11:47 am

Redd wrote:

It's just a way of avoiding the embarrassment of selling citizenship. There is an understanding that the participants will receive it after 5 years, a quick and easy way into Canada if you have the money to lend, interest-free, to the government.


What embarrassment?

If they reside in Canada for three years, pay taxes, earn their keep (i.e. stay off the dole), educate their children in Canada etc etc, why shouldn’t they qualify for citizenship? At that point, they’ll be as integrated as any other citizen.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:26 am

ElPistolero wrote:
- Lets not assume that the investor-class, or rich people, are inherently crooks. The majority of them are clean


Citation needed

ElPistolero wrote:
but want a change of scenery, environment, political system etc. A rich Hong-Konger leaving HK now doesn’t really have to justify wanting to leave/obtaining another citizenship these days, does he/she?


Please don't try and imply that they have no choice but to buy foreign citizenship. I know dozens of Hong Kongers who've migrated here and worked hard over many years to earn their citizenship.

ElPistolero wrote:
- The issue then is that they don’t have to go through the same process as others. This is contingent on proving economic value. Buying lots of real estate is still lining a local developer/residents pocket.


Buying local real estate distorted the local market. See Sydney, Vancouver, Auckland and Melbourne as examples of the massive asset inflation it causes: hundreds of thousands of middle class people being forced out of the housing market due to wealthy foreigners.


ElPistolero wrote:
Why is it wrong to take a shortcut around a process that the vast, vast majority of any country’s population aren’t subject to anyway.

Because it's a different set of rules for the haves vs the have nots.

ElPistolero wrote:
- Citizenship tests are theatre. They’re easy to the point of being pointless.

Again, more nonsense. Very important for citizens to be able to speak at least one of the local language and to prove that they have respect for local laws + values and intend to integrate.


ElPistolero wrote:
- That’s not to say that I’m in favour of open borders.


ElPistolero wrote:
Might as well be honest and leave it at that. How they obtain it is a technicality no better or worse than the lottery of birth.

Open borders so long as only rich people pass through them.

Redd wrote:
Meanwhile in Canada......

Crazy.

ElPistolero wrote:
If they reside in Canada for three years, pay taxes, earn their keep (i.e. stay off the dole), educate their children in Canada etc etc, why shouldn’t they qualify for citizenship?

Who says they pay any taxes? If they're wealthy, their source of funds is likely a business, or money in their origin country which they won't be paying any taxes on.
First to fly the 787-9
 
ElPistolero
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:32 pm

zkojq wrote:
Citation needed


Yeah, and there’s a teapot in space.

You claimed they’re criminals. The onus is on you to prove it, not on me to disprove it.

zkojq wrote:
Please don't try and imply that they have no choice but to buy foreign citizenship. I know dozens of Hong Kongers who've migrated here and worked hard over many years to earn their citizenship.


I didn’t; you literally made that up.

I just pointed out that “scumminess”, as you put it, is not the main driver for seeking other citizenships quickly.

zkojq wrote:
Buying local real estate distorted the local market. See Sydney, Vancouver, Auckland and Melbourne as examples of the massive asset inflation it causes: hundreds of thousands of middle class people being forced out of the housing market due to wealthy foreigners.


You’re confusing issues here. What does foreign investment in property have to do with property purchases by old or new citizens? Are they foreigners now?

That aside, by definition, any immigrant, rich or poor is going to require housing, contributing to a depletion in housing stock and raising prices. The higher skilled they are, the better they’re paid, and the greater the impact. If you think Vancouver is bad, try San Francisco. Those high paid workers have worked hard to get those jobs. Gentrification has followed. Why is that a bad thing?

zkojq wrote:
Because it's a different set of rules for the haves vs the have nots.


Of course it is. Some people - including some very scummy people - have an automatic claim to citizenship of a country. Others have to “earn” it. Different rules down to the lottery of birth.

The issue here is that the “haves” (as citizenships go) are now trying to ascribe moral values to the “have nots” by breaking them into two groups on the basis of wealth, wherein the “have nots” are somehow superior to supposedly “scummy” “haves” (as wealth goes). It’s really all very silly.

There are multiple paths to immigration - birth/parents birthplace/refugee status/skilled immigration etc. Adding one on the basis of wealth is no more/less arbitrary than other routes.

zkojq wrote:
Again, more nonsense. Very important for citizens to be able to speak at least one of the local language and to prove that they have respect for local laws + values and intend to integrate.


Red herring. Even the investor category you derided as “crazy” has a language and residency requirement built in.

Either way, begs the question: if a new immigrant/permanent resident breaks the law, should they be disqualified from citizenship? Or should they be punished/rehabilitated like any citizen who has committed the same crime. After all, this could result in the ultimate case of different rules for “haves” and “have nots”: one gets to retain his citizenship; one loses any chance to it.

zkojq wrote:
Open borders so long as only rich people pass through them.


Is that any different to open borders so long as only high skilled workers pass through them? Given the proliferation of green cards/points systems, most folk seem to be okay with this. Brexit is driven by it.

zkojq wrote:
Who says they pay any taxes? If they're wealthy, their source of funds is likely a business, or money in their origin country which they won't be paying any taxes on.


I can’t speak for other countries, but both the US and Canada require that citizens pay taxes on all global income.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:19 pm

I am not against the idea but should come with commitment not just a price tag. You are required to live there for at least 3yrs and pay tax, you should not any other passport afterwards. Too many rich people with multiple passports.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
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DocLightning
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:22 pm

AA7295 wrote:
Hello all,

I just read this: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49958628 and it basically states that the selling and purchasing of citizenships by countries is now a big business.

I'm against this for a few reasons:
- Citizenship is wrong to be sold - it's an honourable thing to have earned.


I didn't earn a darned thing. I was born in the USA. Like everyone else, I had no say in the circumstances of my birth.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Redd
Posts: 1032
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:36 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Redd wrote:

It's just a way of avoiding the embarrassment of selling citizenship. There is an understanding that the participants will receive it after 5 years, a quick and easy way into Canada if you have the money to lend, interest-free, to the government.


What embarrassment?

If they reside in Canada for three years, pay taxes, earn their keep (i.e. stay off the dole), educate their children in Canada etc etc, why shouldn’t they qualify for citizenship? At that point, they’ll be as integrated as any other citizen.



I don't think you comprendo. People with that money (it's actually just the Chinese this program was really made for) loan the money and have an open door. No waiting, no going through the same immigration process all others have to. The 5 years waiting time is just to save face as all of these folk are getting their citizenship, all of them are.. It also caused a huge real estate bubble in, the average home price in Vancouver is $3.1 million Canadian. The rich Chinese have completely priced the middle class out of the market. There was even a reality TV show about the kids of the rich Chinese in Vancouver, It's a joke.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1763
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:07 pm

Redd wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Redd wrote:

It's just a way of avoiding the embarrassment of selling citizenship. There is an understanding that the participants will receive it after 5 years, a quick and easy way into Canada if you have the money to lend, interest-free, to the government.


What embarrassment?

If they reside in Canada for three years, pay taxes, earn their keep (i.e. stay off the dole), educate their children in Canada etc etc, why shouldn’t they qualify for citizenship? At that point, they’ll be as integrated as any other citizen.



I don't think you comprendo. People with that money (it's actually just the Chinese this program was really made for) loan the money and have an open door. No waiting, no going through the same immigration process all others have to. The 5 years waiting time is just to save face as all of these folk are getting their citizenship, all of them are.. It also caused a huge real estate bubble in, the average home price in Vancouver is $3.1 million Canadian. The rich Chinese have completely priced the middle class out of the market. There was even a reality TV show about the kids of the rich Chinese in Vancouver, It's a joke.


Here’s the criteria:

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-re ... ility.html

To be eligible to become a Canadian citizen, you must:

- be a permanent resident
- have lived in Canada for 3 out of the last 5 years
- have filed your taxes, if you need to
- show how well you know Canada
- prove your language skills

I have yet to see anything that exempts investors from these requirements. The only exception appears to be those who’ve served in the military -they get fast-tracked.

Proof please. Evidently you’re an expert on Canadian immigration, so should be easy enough for you.

Gotta say, the rest of your post isn’t particularly accurate either. See here:

“The composite benchmark price for detached houses, townhomes and condos in Metro Vancouver was $998,700 in June (2019), said the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver. “

https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/metro- ... -1.4493586

Quite a bit lower than your fantasy $3.1m homes. That bubble has been deflating ever since BC put a non-residency tax on owners living outside BC (including Canadians in other provinces).
 
Redd
Posts: 1032
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Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:38 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
Quite a bit lower than your fantasy $3.1m homes. That bubble has been deflating ever since BC put a non-residency tax on owners living outside BC (including Canadians in other provinces).


I wasn't talking about metro Vancouver, I was talking about the city proper. Take a look at sales prices in west Van. As for the immigration, you clearly believe that people are lending the C-government $800,000 and aren't getting any special treatment. That's actually kind of amusing.

According to the Real Estate Board of Greater Vancouver, there were 144 detached home sales in the first three months of 2019 compared with 221 in 2017 — and 579 in 2016. In West Vancouver, the average sales price between January and March this year was C$3.1m compared with C$3.9m in the same period of 2016.


https://www.ft.com/content/20699e8e-676 ... 0d2f5705f6
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1763
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:15 pm

Redd wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Quite a bit lower than your fantasy $3.1m homes. That bubble has been deflating ever since BC put a non-residency tax on owners living outside BC (including Canadians in other provinces)

I wasn't talking about metro Vancouver, I was talking about the city proper. Take a look at sales prices in west Van. As for the immigration, you clearly believe that people are lending the C-government $800,000 and aren't getting any special treatment. That's actually kind of amusing.


Two things stand out here:

- You can’t point to any law / policy that backs up your claim. Makes it pretty clear that you’re engaging in baseless speculation. Or trying to float some half-baked conspiracy theory about how one of the world’s richest and least corrupt countries is breaking its own laws for not particularly significant amounts of money.

- You evidently know nothing about Vancouver. West Van includes West Point Grey, one of the most exclusive neighbourhoods in the country. Using it as a gauge for house prices in a city is as daft as considering 5th Avenue or Chelsea as accurate indicators of housing prices for people living in NYC or London.

Please stop making stuff up.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3026
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:56 am

readytotaxi wrote:
I am not against the idea but should come with commitment not just a price tag.


I guess that describes Melania... I wonder if she thinks it was worth it now?

;)
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
BN747
Posts: 6800
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:37 am

Putting a price on citizenship.
Patriotism for sale.
Political power/systems for sale.
Governments for sale...and of course, presidents and the like.

or Citizen United Wins!

It first got itself established as an entity with all the legal rights of a person via the rights of corporations.
It then got itself established footing deep into political campaign finance
And now, any person of means can purchase sudden rights of a nation not of their birth.

This is human ignorance beyond control in tandem with capitalism unchecked.

This makes the coming of AI control of /society desirable.
Because a Mad Max post Apocalyptic world is the guaranteed outcome...in which we case we annihilate ourselves (fighting & starving to the death)

...and then the dawn of Man begins all over again. We learn to crawl, and it starts all again.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Redd
Posts: 1032
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:05 am

ElPistolero wrote:

Please stop making stuff up.



Please elaborate... I used West Van as an example of how wealthy Chinese immigrants impacted the real estate market. Look at the prices before that immigration policy came into play, and how fast they started to rise after it came into play.

Next, I don't need to point out any policy. You're the one arguing with my point, and you're assuming that people who lend the government $800,000 interest-free are getting no special treatment. That's beyond naive and you know it.
 
ElPistolero
Posts: 1763
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:07 pm

Redd wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:

Please stop making stuff up.



Please elaborate... I used West Van as an example of how wealthy Chinese immigrants impacted the real estate market. Look at the prices before that immigration policy came into play, and how fast they started to rise after it came into play.

Next, I don't need to point out any policy. You're the one arguing with my point, and you're assuming that people who lend the government $800,000 interest-free are getting no special treatment. That's beyond naive and you know it.


Arguing with your point? Not at all. I’ve merely asked you to substantiate it. I’ve also provided the Canadian Government’s criteria for immigrants applying for citizenship, including investors. Needless to say, it contradicts your “point” and you’ve provided nothing to address that.

You’re the one making the claim and arguing against a publicly published policy / law. The onus is on you to prove your claim. Otherwise, you might as well come here and claim there’s a teapot in space and demand that we prove it’s not.

Like I said, please stop making stuff up.

As for Van house prices, I’ll explain that when you explain the SFO RE market.
 
bhill
Posts: 1657
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Purchasing Citizenship - Wrong or Okay?

Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:25 pm

Here is how the US does it...while not citizen ship...once one has residence status, the skids are MUCH more slick to citizenship....

https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-st ... sification
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