alfa164
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Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:15 pm

When you buy into a dirty war, you may expect to use dirty tactics - but among civilized peoples, this goes beyond the limits. Russian flyers bombed four hospitals in Syria with a 12-hour period.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/12- ... li=BBnb7Kz
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TWA772LR
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:24 pm

What do you want us to do about it?
When wasn't America great?


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jordanh
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:32 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
What do you want us to do about it?


I think it means your US President and Congress should keep the pressure on Russia, with continuing sanctions. And since Mr. Trump himself seems to have some sort of personal obligation to Putin, Congress should be sure he doesn't do anything more that is against the interests of the country.

I hope the whistleblowers who heard the call to Ukraine's president are listening to everything he says to Putin, too.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:59 pm

jordanh wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
What do you want us to do about it?


I think it means your US President and Congress should keep the pressure on Russia, with continuing sanctions. And since Mr. Trump himself seems to have some sort of personal obligation to Putin, Congress should be sure he doesn't do anything more that is against the interests of the country.

I hope the whistleblowers who heard the call to Ukraine's president are listening to everything he says to Putin, too.


The sanctions are in place. Frankly, Obama and his crew should NOT have involved the US in Syria. It’s none of our business, is not a vital interest.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 1:10 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
jordanh wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
What do you want us to do about it?


I think it means your US President and Congress should keep the pressure on Russia, with continuing sanctions. And since Mr. Trump himself seems to have some sort of personal obligation to Putin, Congress should be sure he doesn't do anything more that is against the interests of the country.

I hope the whistleblowers who heard the call to Ukraine's president are listening to everything he says to Putin, too.


The sanctions are in place. Frankly, Obama and his crew should NOT have involved the US in Syria. It’s none of our business, is not a vital interest.


That’s possible in a simple world, but 44 and his State Dept got the same pressure as any other administration would from both Israel and KSA. The latter heavily pressured the US to intervene with Assad or help arm Syrian rebels, as a counterweight to Iranian influence. Or have you already forgotten the leaked cables from the Saudi government imploring 44 to ‘cut the head off the snake?’. Why do the dirty work oneself when already used to petrodollar privilege?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:26 am

according to an investigation by The New York Times.


I'd like to know more about this "investigation". First, Russian planes don't descent below 5000m (to avoid being hit with portable air defense missiles), and I don't think one with a naked eye can distinguish which plane is it. Second - they claim "radio transmissions". Russian military is very modern, and they certainly would use encryption to transmit talks between pilots and the ground. Last but not least - was it really a hospital, or something else there in Idlib in the reported location. If New York Times is so sure - they should get the U.S. envoy to the U.N. present the details.
Last edited by anrec80 on Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:29 am

jordanh wrote:
I think it means your US President and Congress should keep the pressure on Russia, with continuing sanctions. And since Mr. Trump himself seems to have some sort of personal obligation to Putin, Congress should be sure he doesn't do anything more that is against the interests of the country.


There already have been 70 or so sanctions round, all to no avail. Gotta try something else. If this can be proven - then it should be taken to the U.N., a Russian ambassador needs to be called in to the State Dept. to be presented with the details and explain all this, etc.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:49 am

Here is Nebenzia's press-conference showing the real locations of the hospitals vs ones reported in the "investigation".
http://webtv.un.org/en/ga/watch/vassily ... rt=popular
 
Redd
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:12 am

TWA772LR wrote:
What do you want us to do about it?



Clean up your mess?
 
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SQ22
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:38 pm

anrec80 wrote:
according to an investigation by The New York Times.


I'd like to know more about this "investigation". First, Russian planes don't descent below 5000m (to avoid being hit with portable air defense missiles), and I don't think one with a naked eye can distinguish which plane is it. Second - they claim "radio transmissions". Russian military is very modern, and they certainly would use encryption to transmit talks between pilots and the ground. Last but not least - was it really a hospital, or something else there in Idlib in the reported location. If New York Times is so sure - they should get the U.S. envoy to the U.N. present the details.


Can you back this up with a link to a source?
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:10 pm

SQ22 wrote:
Can you back this up with a link to a source?


Do you mean the quote? It’s in the same article:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/12 ... li=BBnb7Kz

First paragraph
The Russian Air Force has repeatedly bombed hospitals in Syria in order to crush the last pockets of resistance to President Bashar al-Assad, according to an investigation by The New York Times.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:12 pm

anrec80 wrote:
SQ22 wrote:
Can you back this up with a link to a source?


Do you mean the quote? It’s in the same article:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/12 ... li=BBnb7Kz

First paragraph
The Russian Air Force has repeatedly bombed hospitals in Syria in order to crush the last pockets of resistance to President Bashar al-Assad, according to an investigation by The New York Times.


No, I was referring to your statement about russian aircraft etc.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:18 pm

anrec80 wrote:
SQ22 wrote:
Can you back this up with a link to a source?


Do you mean the quote? It’s in the same article:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/12 ... li=BBnb7Kz

First paragraph
The Russian Air Force has repeatedly bombed hospitals in Syria in order to crush the last pockets of resistance to President Bashar al-Assad, according to an investigation by The New York Times.


You back-up a statement that the Russians didn't do it, with a source that determined the Russians were responsible and not only that but that the Russians are systematically attacking hospitals and that there are almost 1.000 hospital workers killed in Syria since 2011 for which Russia is partly to blame.

So how does that work in your universe?
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anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:15 pm

SQ22 wrote:
No, I was referring to your statement about russian aircraft etc.


This information is rather well known and isn’t a secret. It has all been popping up in Russian Defense Dept briefings and the likes over 5 years of Syrian presence.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... -site.html

The technology works so well that from a height of six kilometers, ammunition deviates from targets by four meters. 6000 meters - the working height of the Russian Air Force in Syria, inaccessible to portable anti-aircraft systems, which are in service with the Daesh militants.


Same about encryption:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 4106491%2F
And finally, the representative of the Ministry of Defense told foreign colleagues a terrible military secret: the transfer of the coordinates of targets to pilots of Russian bombers in Syria is not carried out by voice on open air. This information is encrypted.


Any journalist writing a military related article must have an understanding of such things.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
You back-up a statement that the Russians didn't do it, with a source that determined the Russians were responsible


What kind of source? We’ve seen all kinds of sources - anonymous ones, some organizations, “within secret services”, etc. Bulk of the information from those sources too often ended up being shown as a fake. Same here - the “investigative journalist” did not even bother to compare the target coordinates and see what exactly is at those coordinates - some cave, and certainly not the hospital. The hospital itself was also shown before and after the alleged strikes and was doing just fine (as fine as it can be in ISIS controlled territory).

Hence this “Investigation” is yet again at best half done. You can tell a well done investigative job - it’s when Mr. Nebenzia has nothing left to do other than just to sit there and watch, not having anything to say. And in this case it’s the opposite - hence it’s simply a yet another fake by NYT.

Dutchy wrote:
and not only that but that the Russians are systematically attacking hospitals and that there are almost 1.000 hospital workers killed in Syria since 2011 for which Russia is partly to blame.


Systemically is how systemically? Nobody screeched about hospital bombing by Russians before, and now the hospitals in the article don’t have any bombing traces.
 
jordanh
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:57 pm

anrec80 wrote:
We’ve seen all kinds of sources - anonymous ones, some organizations, “within secret services”, etc. Bulk of the information from those sources too often ended up being shown as a fake. Same here - the “investigative journalist” did not even bother to compare the target coordinates and see what exactly is at those coordinates - some cave, and certainly not the hospital. The hospital itself was also shown before and after the alleged strikes and was doing just fine (as fine as it can be in ISIS controlled territory). Hence this “Investigation” is yet again at best half done. You can tell a well done investigative job - it’s when Mr. Nebenzia has nothing left to do other than just to sit there and watch, not having anything to say. And in this case it’s the opposite - hence it’s simply a yet another fake by NYT.


You question other posters who use reputable sources, yet you quote various Russian military statements... the same people who made countless ridiculous and easily disproven excuses for taking down MH17 - statements you so seriously passed along to us as "facts". Remember?
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:41 am

jordanh wrote:
You question other posters who use reputable sources,


How reputable can be a source that is “anonymous”? And what kind of reputable source markets the location of a cave as the location of a major hospital? And, worse yet, what kind of “military journalist” doesn’t even bother to check how the location provided to them by the “source” look like on satellite imagery? I am not even talking about the sources themselves - some yet another “organization”.

jordanh wrote:
yet you quote various Russian military statements...


Yes, I did. Lieutenant General Konashenkov doesn’t have a reputation of a fake news source. Unlike “free media” and “independent organizations”.

jordanh wrote:
the same people who made countless ridiculous and easily disproven excuses for taking down MH17 - statements you so seriously passed along to us as "facts". Remember?


Let’s not go into MH-17 - this whole JIT “investigation” is also based on the “sources” just as “reputable”, while the JIT investigators have never been to the area, talked to any witnesses, and appointed their suspects based on their Facebook visibility. This is truly sad for not only relatives of the victims, but for the whole Dutch law enforcement system and Dutch society as the whole.
Last edited by anrec80 on Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:11 am

anrec80 wrote:
SQ22 wrote:
No, I was referring to your statement about russian aircraft etc.


This information is rather well known and isn’t a secret. It has all been popping up in Russian Defense Dept briefings and the likes over 5 years of Syrian presence.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... -site.html

The technology works so well that from a height of six kilometers, ammunition deviates from targets by four meters. 6000 meters - the working height of the Russian Air Force in Syria, inaccessible to portable anti-aircraft systems, which are in service with the Daesh militants.


Same about encryption:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 4106491%2F
And finally, the representative of the Ministry of Defense told foreign colleagues a terrible military secret: the transfer of the coordinates of targets to pilots of Russian bombers in Syria is not carried out by voice on open air. This information is encrypted.


Any journalist writing a military related article must have an understanding of such things.


Check, you have nothing to back-up the statement you've made in this instance. So your statement must be removed per forum rules.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:27 am

anrec80 wrote:
jordanh wrote:
You question other posters who use reputable sources,


How reputable can be a source that is “anonymous”? And what kind of reputable source markets the location of a cave as the location of a major hospital? And, worse yet, what kind of “military journalist” doesn’t even bother to check how the location provided to them by the “source” look like on satellite imagery? I am not even talking about the sources themselves - some yet another “organization”.

jordanh wrote:
yet you quote various Russian military statements...


Yes, I did. Lieutenant General Konashenkov doesn’t have a reputation of a fake news source. Unlike “free media” and “independent organizations”.

jordanh wrote:
the same people who made countless ridiculous and easily disproven excuses for taking down MH17 - statements you so seriously passed along to us as "facts". Remember?


Let’s not go into MH-17 - this whole JIT “investigation” is also based on the “sources” just as “reputable”, while the JIT investigators have never been to the area, talked to any witnesses, and appointed their suspects based on their Facebook visibility. This is truly sad for not only relatives of the victims, but for the whole Dutch law enforcement system and Dutch society as the whole.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Russian media and Russian politicians and institutions, very much including Russian military, have a very questionable reputation and a very flued relationship with the truth. Fundamentally though, governments and institutions should be kept in check by an independent media, and sadly Russia lacks this. Spreading this, you are acting like a Russian troll yet again. Not saying you are, you are just trying to mimic one a bit too well. Laughable and . sad at the same time.

We are talking about a very serious issue here, Russian military personal attacking hospitals in a war-zone. And they are backing a regime who does the same and are killing lots of civilians. You are backing all of this here, so in this case you show very questionable moral judgement.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
MareBorealis
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:08 am

I wonder how this world would be without those big bullying nations...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:15 am

MareBorealis wrote:
I wonder how this world would be without those big bullying nations...


Russia isn't big, just a regional power. Syria is just not that interesting in a geopolitical sense.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Redd
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:31 am

Dutchy wrote:

So how does that work in your universe?



I'm not a fan of Russia, but it would be wise to ask yourself this question. Why would Russia bomb hospitals on purpose? Can you come up with a good reason?

I don't doubt they've accidentally hit a hospital or two, happens all the time. Even to the US. But I really have a hard time believing Russia is targeting hospitals, just to kill innocent sick people.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:49 am

Redd wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

So how does that work in your universe?



I'm not a fan of Russia, but it would be wise to ask yourself this question. Why would Russia bomb hospitals on purpose? Can you come up with a good reason?

I don't doubt they've accidentally hit a hospital or two, happens all the time. Even to the US. But I really have a hard time believing Russia is targeting hospitals, just to kill innocent sick people.


Do you have any good reason? Striking fear into the hearts of innocent citizens? Depriving means of patching up worriers to resume fighting and the civilians are just that, civilians, so they do not care? Striking so near hospitals that they are within the margin of error?

Almost 1.000 hospital workers killed during the eight-year war, isn't accidental anymore, that is a clear indication that something more sinister is going on.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Redd
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:44 pm

Dutchy wrote:

Almost 1.000 hospital workers killed during the eight-year war, isn't accidental anymore, that is a clear indication that something more sinister is going on.


One thing I've noticed about you is, that you're willing to believe anything negative about Russia. Keep in mind, I'm not criticizing you here nor am I claiming that Russia has clean hands. But, I'm quite well aware of how far bullshit spreads in the form of propaganda and I somehow doubt that Russia is responsible for the deaths1000 hospital workers. I'd like to see some solid evidence. I'll gladly swallow my words if I'm wrong, but I think some people including yourself are way too quick in lighting the fires without waiting to confirm anything. So far there is only circumstantial evidence, and from what I've seen it's not very convincing.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:00 pm

Given how the Putin regime - and notice I do not criticize Russia as such, but the Putin regime - has acted in the past and how they are willing to distort the truth, yes, I am more willing to believe the negative than the positive about the Putin regime and how they act in the world or domestically. Given the number report from NGO's, why not, and given that it is verifiable if a hospital is bombed or not, just look at satellite images.

BTW the 1.000 death came from an article that our resident Putinofile has linked, not just death caused by the Russian military, but all death since 2011 caused by the Assad regime coalition.

Given all the Russian and Assad track record, I do not really care anymore if this incident really happened or not, it will not change my mind about the Russian conduct in this conflict. Too much has happened, too many civilian death, too many refugees, too much human suffering.
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atcsundevil
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:15 pm

Keep the thread on topic.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Russian media and Russian politicians and institutions, very much including Russian military, have a very questionable reputation and a very flued relationship with the truth. Fundamentally though, governments and institutions should be kept in check by an independent media, and sadly Russia lacks this.


In Russia, these “independent media” have gained a strong reputation of “fake factories”, and hence won’t be in demand in society. There are some that you would consider “independent”, but their market share is small for these reasons. There is simply no interest in the fakes similar to this one.

Dutchy wrote:
We are talking about a very serious issue here, Russian military personal attacking hospitals in a war-zone. And they are backing a regime who does the same and are killing lots of civilians. You are backing all of this here, so in this case you show very questionable moral judgement.


Yes - attacking a hospital is a serious issue - it’s a war crime. And hence requires a serious and irrefutable proof - so that nobody can object. Location of a cave marketed as a hospital, while the hospital is intact - doesn’t count as such, obviously.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Do you have any good reason? Striking fear into the hearts of innocent citizens? Depriving means of patching up worriers to resume fighting and the civilians are just that, civilians, so they do not care? Striking so near hospitals that they are within the margin of error?


Why do you believe Russia won’t be interested in good relations with ordinary Syrians? So far - the relations between Russia and ordinary citizens are great. Stabilization of Syria by Russians wouldn’t have happened if Russians were in bad relations with Syrians. There are Russian journalists on the ground, Russian military police maintaining order and keeping ISIS fighters out of liberated areas, countless Russian humanitarian missions, military doctors helping civilians. All that would not be possible without good relations with locals. Fear has nothing to do here at all.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:55 am

anrec80 wrote:
Why do you believe Russia won’t be interested in good relations with ordinary Syrians?


Because the Assad-regime is a harsh dictatorship and he doesn't care about ordinary Syrians, if he did, we wouldn't have been in this mess in the first place. The Putin regime backs the Assad-regime because of geopolitical interests, not because of a humanitarian sense of duty. Stop putting your propaganda here, it is no use.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:03 am

anrec80 wrote:
Yes - attacking a hospital is a serious issue - it’s a war crime. And hence requires a serious and irrefutable proof - so that nobody can object. Location of a cave marketed as a hospital, while the hospital is intact - doesn’t count as such, obviously.


Please point out where the article in the New York Times is wrong after they have done the investigation, talked to a bunch of people including witnesses, analyzed data. Please point out that these 4 hospitals attacked within 12 hours on May 5th and 6th of this year. We are still waiting for your counterproof for these instances and you have failed to proof anything, just putting down words, doesn't work, you should know this by now.

War crimes should be prosecuted, sure, but since:

Russia’s position as a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council has shielded it from scrutiny and made United Nations agencies reluctant to accuse the Russian Air Force of responsibility.

“The attacks on health in Syria, as well as the indiscriminate bombing of civilian facilities, are definitely war crimes, and they should be prosecuted at the level of the International Criminal Court in The Hague,” said Susannah Sirkin, director of policy at Physicians for Human Rights. But Russia and China “shamefully” vetoed a Security Council resolution that would have referred those and other crimes in Syria to the court, she said.


It will not happen, Russia is shielded because of a historical error to leave them as a permanent member of the SC after the USSR fell apart. And they abuse that power to shield themselves from scrutiny and they get away with war crimes like this, because of that.
Nothing to be proud of man, but go ahead with defending your Putin's Russia.
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anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:17 am

Dutchy wrote:
Because the Assad-regime is a harsh dictatorship and he doesn't care about ordinary Syrians, if he did, we wouldn't have been in this mess in the first place. The Putin regime backs the Assad-regime because of geopolitical interests, not because of a humanitarian sense of duty. Stop putting your propaganda here, it is no use.


Well - he cares exactly about them and Syrian statehood. I do have a lot of respect for him and his family since they did not even look into leaving the country even when explosions were close to his residence - and this is my genuine feeling. Instead, he was seeking help in saving his country's statehood, and found it. Unlike Yanukovich, who first let the mess go out of control and then just called for rescue.

And here are the interactions between Assad and his people in 2017. Doesn't look like a bloodthirsty dictator to me at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F27HLPzFSY4
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:32 am

Dutchy wrote:
Please point out where the article in the New York Times is wrong after they have done the investigation, talked to a bunch of people including witnesses, analyzed data. Please point out that these 4 hospitals attacked within 12 hours on May 5th and 6th of this year. We are still waiting for your counterproof for these instances and you have failed to proof anything, just putting down words, doesn't work, you should know this by now.


Have you watched Nebenzia's press conference? Doesn't take long, first 15 minutes. I don't know whom one needs to talk to and what data to analyze in order to arrive to a claim that a cave is a hospital. And who are "they"? And what "investigation" have they done? On the example of MH-17 mentioned above, we all know what quality of "investigations" "they" perform.

And here is the illustration - their own article attacking Mr. Nebenzia personally (and claiming "strategy of denial"), manipulate reader's emotions - instead of prepare a demonstration of all these facts with evidence, in a way that cannot be countered. I know, the latter is harder than to just attack, and without proof is impossible. Typical tactics of "free media" and such after their fake has been questioned. If they resort to that - that alone means there is no proof.
https://phr.org/our-work/resources/russ ... s-new-low/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:35 am

anrec80 wrote:
I do have a lot of respect for him and his family since they did not even look into leaving the country even when explosions were close to his residence - and this is my genuine feeling.


Sure you have a lot of respect for a repressive dictator like Assad. I would expect nothing less from you. You are here to defend the indefensible, so why not.

The questions still remain:
1. "We are still waiting for your counterproof for these instances"
2. "No, I was referring to your statement about russian aircraft etc."
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:15 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Sure you have a lot of respect for a repressive dictator like Assad. I would expect nothing less from you.


I have respect for him as a leader and as a human being. He had a lot of chances to leave, and at least get his family out of Syria. But he did not. And I do not understand this other “feature” of liberal idea supporters - dehumanize their political opponents.

Dutchy wrote:
The questions still remain:
1. "We are still waiting for your counterproof for these instances"
2. "No, I was referring to your statement about russian aircraft etc."

[/quote]

I provided enough information on these topics here. If you want to see it - all you need for that is to want to see it.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:52 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Sure you have a lot of respect for a repressive dictator like Assad. I would expect nothing less from you.


I have respect for him as a leader and as a human being. He had a lot of chances to leave, and at least get his family out of Syria. But he did not. And I do not understand this other “feature” of liberal idea supporters - dehumanize their political opponents.


Sure you do, you respect a leader who bombs his own people in cities with barrel bombs and have the first sign of opposition have them crushed (that's what it all has started this mess).

What exactly do you mean with: "“feature” of liberal idea supporters - dehumanize their political opponents."

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The questions still remain:
1. "We are still waiting for your counterproof for these instances"
2. "No, I was referring to your statement about russian aircraft etc."


I provided enough information on these topics here. If you want to see it - all you need for that is to want to see it.


No you didn't, no proof what-so-ever from a reputable source to disproof the NY times. So we are left to conclude that you cannot provide any.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Sure you do, you respect a leader who bombs his own people in cities with barrel bombs and have the first sign of opposition have them crushed (that's what it all has started this mess).


I respect him for his human and leadership qualities, and the fact that his leadership is viewed as well deserved among Syrian people. He would not have been able to fight ISIS without his nation support, and this is obvious. No leader, be it “authoritarian” or “democratic”, can fight a war without strong support from his nation. Opposite just does not happen in history. And who bombs whom and with what in Syria - the priority in this matter goes to Syrians themselves, and not you.

Dutchy wrote:
What exactly do you mean with: "“feature” of liberal idea supporters - dehumanize their political opponents."


Sure. First, I also view these leaders (Including Putin and Assad) as humans, with their responsibilities. And certainly rights, one of which - they are entitled to all their deeds to be proven, just as any other human. Isn’t this a basis of all human rights notion? And how your “free press” and “independent media” go? Throw something in without a proof, and then portray the leader as some sort of bloodthirsty animal that needs to be kicked out, locked up and, better yet, hung up. But they certainly do not talk about them as humans.

Dutchy wrote:
No you didn't, no proof what-so-ever from a reputable source to disproof the NY times. So we are left to conclude that you cannot provide any.


And how did the “reputable source” act when handling evidence of them “mistaking”? If this source was truly reputable, they would have bothered to fact-check what they write, then composed the article and made a presentation in such a way that Mr. Nebenzia has nothing to say at all. This is the criteria of a job well done. And what did they do instead? They yet again cited some “anonymous sources” and discussed personality traits of Mr. Nebenzia and the government of the country he represents. Nothing else. This pretty much shows off the reputability of this source.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:21 pm

You can have the will to rewrite history, but that doesn't change the facts. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

Just continue to defend the Assad and Putin regimes, repressive as they are, we know where it comes from, so it is just hollow talk.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:52 am

Dutchy wrote:
You can have the will to rewrite history, but that doesn't change the facts. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.



All too often, there aren’t any facts presented in mainstream “liberal media”. Not even something to talk about.

Dutchy wrote:

Just continue to defend the Assad and Putin regimes, repressive as they are, we know where it comes from, so it is just hollow talk.


Who is repressing whom in Russia or Syria? You talked about Syrian “opposition” - where is it now? Merged with Jabhat al Nusra? ISIS? Russian “opposition” is slightly different story - just a gathering of Western grant consumers (called “grant-suckers”) with support ratings of less than 1%, though aggressive and noisy. And breaking laws too often. There aren’t any “oppression” objects simply anywhere.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
Sure you do, you respect a leader who bombs his own people in cities with barrel bombs and have the first sign of opposition have them crushed (that's what it all has started this mess).


And one more important point to add - I really wish Assad was the Ukrainian president in 2014, and would trade him for Yanukovich or any of his successors any day.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:27 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Sure you do, you respect a leader who bombs his own people in cities with barrel bombs and have the first sign of opposition have them crushed (that's what it all has started this mess).


And one more important point to add - I really wish Assad was the Ukrainian president in 2014, and would trade him for Yanukovich or any of his successors any day.


You say you are a Canadian living in New York, I would not hope you would experience the Assad or Putin regime when you are in fundamental disagreement with them, although it would be good for you to gain some perspective instead of this blinded love - perhaps aided with money - for these "leaders" - and as you noted I us ethe term leader very losely here -. You only have to read about these regimes and how they threat opponents they perceive as a thread. But since you only seem to accept propaganda from official Assad or Putin regime sources and not NGO's, I can only say that you need to experience it yourself - although I do not wish it for anyone.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:30 am

anrec80 wrote:
Who is repressing whom in Russia or Syria? You talked about Syrian “opposition” - where is it now?


Dead? Crushed? Feld the warzone? In one of Assad's prison camps? Struggling for survival and not worrying too much about fundamental human rights?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:38 am

alfa164 wrote:
When you buy into a dirty war, you may expect to use dirty tactics - but among civilized peoples, this goes beyond the limits. Russian flyers bombed four hospitals in Syria with a 12-hour period.


Where was your outrage when:

https://theintercept.com/2015/10/07/a-s ... acilities/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiriyah_shelter_bombing

https://www.latimes.com/world/middleeas ... story.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/ ... 14951.html

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/ ... pital-iraq
 
tu204
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:18 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Who is repressing whom in Russia or Syria? You talked about Syrian “opposition” - where is it now?


Dead? Crushed? Feld the warzone? In one of Assad's prison camps? Struggling for survival and not worrying too much about fundamental human rights?


Don't know, but considering what they caused by their actions I am not shedding any tears for them if that (or worse) is their fate. Unfortunately the leaders and decision makers in western regimes will probably not answer for their actions in fanning the flames almost to the point that the situation got out of control until direct Russian support, the lives of more than a hundred Russian servicemen and 4 years got the situation back under control.

If anyone deserves to be "dead, crushed or in Assad's prison camps", it's them. Not so much the puppets they exploited, while looking on and cheering from the sidelines.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:43 pm

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Who is repressing whom in Russia or Syria? You talked about Syrian “opposition” - where is it now?


Dead? Crushed? Feld the warzone? In one of Assad's prison camps? Struggling for survival and not worrying too much about fundamental human rights?


Don't know, but considering what they caused by their actions I am not shedding any tears for them if that (or worse) is their fate. Unfortunately the leaders and decision makers in western regimes will probably not answer for their actions in fanning the flames almost to the point that the situation got out of control until direct Russian support, the lives of more than a hundred Russian servicemen and 4 years got the situation back under control.

If anyone deserves to be "dead, crushed or in Assad's prison camps", it's them. Not so much the puppets they exploited, while looking on and cheering from the sidelines.


At the cost of the lives of thousands if not tens of thousands of Syrian citizens. Assad regime was almost gone, until the Putin regime intervened. So perhaps a more democratic and better Syria could have been there, after the Assad period if Russia didn't want to help this dictator.

Totally different perspective than the Russian one, but something to think about.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
alfa164
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:56 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
When you buy into a dirty war, you may expect to use dirty tactics - but among civilized peoples, this goes beyond the limits. Russian flyers bombed four hospitals in Syria with a 12-hour period.

Where was your outrage when:
https://theintercept.com/2015/10/07/a-s ... acilities/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiriyah_shelter_bombing
https://www.latimes.com/world/middleeas ... story.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/ ... 14951.html
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/ ... pital-iraq


You point is...? You believe other misdeeds justify Russia's bombing of hospitals?

My "outrage" obviously can't compare to your moral indifference.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:43 pm

alfa164 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
alfa164 wrote:
When you buy into a dirty war, you may expect to use dirty tactics - but among civilized peoples, this goes beyond the limits. Russian flyers bombed four hospitals in Syria with a 12-hour period.

Where was your outrage when:
https://theintercept.com/2015/10/07/a-s ... acilities/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunduz_hospital_airstrike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiriyah_shelter_bombing
https://www.latimes.com/world/middleeas ... story.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/01/ ... 14951.html
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2016/ ... pital-iraq


You point is...? You believe other misdeeds justify Russia's bombing of hospitals?

My "outrage" obviously can't compare to your moral indifference.


Well you got me there, I really do not care, the last 20 or so years of watching wars live on tv has made me fairly indifferent to human suffering and misery, starving children no longer affect me either, but and there is always a but why is it ok for the US to target civilians but not the Russians, the Russians are just following the example set by the US since 9/11.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:03 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
alfa164 wrote:


Well you got me there, I really do not care, the last 20 or so years of watching wars live on tv has made me fairly indifferent to human suffering and misery, starving children no longer affect me either, but and there is always a but why is it ok for the US to target civilians but not the Russians, the Russians are just following the example set by the US since 9/11.



When did the US target civilians? Not collateral damage, not a mistake, but deliberate targeting?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
When did the US target civilians? Not collateral damage, not a mistake, but deliberate targeting?


Perhaps not targeted, but did not care enough for sure. Even if mistakes - they led to civilian death toll in 5-6 figures over the years they are in the Middle East. And, of course, they do not accept on their account casualties from ISIS and civil wars that broke off as the result of their military operations. So I do not see what does it change.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Assad regime was almost gone, until the Putin regime intervened.


Assad regime was not gone, fortunately, and Syrian state institutions are being rebuilt.

Dutchy wrote:
So perhaps a more democratic and better Syria could have been there, after the Assad period if Russia didn't want to help this dictator.


Look at Iraq - there never was any “more democratic and better” Iraq. There was ISIS shortly after Hussein is gone. And there would not have been a “better and more democratic” Syria. ISIS would have also been there - and much more dangerous and scary than it ever was. A full blown terroristic state, with military, economy, ideology, etc. You should ask yourself - what would have been going on in Europe in that case. Hence you should consider a big monument to Putin and Assad in Dam Square in Amsterdam.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia Bombing Hospitals in Syria

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:07 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
When did the US target civilians? Not collateral damage, not a mistake, but deliberate targeting?


Perhaps not targeted, but did not care enough for sure. Even if mistakes - they led to civilian death toll in 5-6 figures over the years they are in the Middle East. And, of course, they do not accept on their account casualties from ISIS and civil wars that broke off as the result of their military operations. So I do not see what does it change.


So you say Rob deliberately told a lie to put Russia in a better light.

So Rob's comparison is a complete and utter bull. Now we have established that we are back at the original statement. "You believe other misdeeds justify Russia's bombing of hospitals?"

Since you thought it fit to react to it, so perhaps you see yourself fit to answer the question posted......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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