Black family arrested for ‘loitering’ on their own front lawn
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/10/black- ... ront-lawn/

Texas police officer shoots Black woman to death inside her home
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/te ... e-n1065451

...and nothing will be heard from America's leader of stoking hate and lawlessness in America.

But he will Tweet something stupid and insane in the next 30 minutes...

BN747

Better article for the Loitering issue. Stay tuned for the Oct 17 court case .

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2019/ ... heir-home/

The township’s loitering statute says there are areas of the township where loitering is prohibited. In those areas, the statute says “officers can question anyone they believe is loitering and ask them to leave.”

It’s not clear if the family’s home is one of those areas.

The family’s lawyer says the township’s loitering statute was struck down in court back in 2012 when courts ruled it was too vague. However, he says based on these arrests, police are still using the same practices.

Better article on the shooting.
It was 2:28 in the morning and she was playing video games with her 8 year old nephew( Insomnia or bad dream?). Neighbor call the police ( Non-emergency) due to the lights on and door open at such an hour. But either way bad all the way around.

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/loca ... 67328.html

"Jefferson was playing video games with her nephew when they heard what they believed to be a prowler outside, her relatives’ attorney said. When she went to the window to see what was going on, she was shot, the attorney said.

Police said that the officer, who joined the department in April 2018, saw a person standing inside the house near a window.

“Perceiving a threat, the officer drew his duty weapon and fired one shot striking the person inside the residence,” the department said in a news release. “Officers entered the residence locating the individual and a firearm and began providing emergency medical care.”

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/loca ... 67328.html

Smith, who has lived on the street for 50 years, said he had been trying to be a good neighbor, calling police on a non-emergency number so they could check on the residents. But he was wrestling with his emotions after a sleepless night.

“I’m shaken. I’m mad. I’m upset. And I feel it’s partly my fault,” he said. “If I had never dialed the police department, she’d still be alive.”

Yeah, regarding the woman in Ft Worth being killed. At what point will people be justified in killing a responding police officer out a just fear of being killed in their home? It is beyond ridiculous. I have a big issue with the recent change in California law regarding what creates a "justified shooting" by an officer but based on these stories the changes are completely reasonable.

Apparently the officer who shot the woman in Ft Worth has resigned and will likely face charges:

The officer who fatally shot Atatiana Jefferson in her home Saturday morning has resigned, Fort Worth interim police chief Ed Kraus said Monday. The officer may face criminal charges, Kraus said.
Fort Worth Mayor Betsy Price said the killing of Jefferson was unjustified.
"I'm so sorry. On behalf of the entire city of Fort Worth, I'm sorry," Price told reporters Monday. "To Atatiana's family, it's unacceptable. There is nothing that can justify what happened on Saturday morning. Nothing."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/us/fort- ... index.html

Tugg

BN747 wrote:

Black family arrested for ‘loitering’ on their own front lawn

Depending on where they are that could actually be illegal. Back in the late 1960s Lake Ozark, Missouri had an ordinance that said you couldn't sit on the hood of the car, even if it was yours. The policy was geared to tourists and counted on them not wanting to drive back to town for a court date, so they would just pay. Lots of places have weird laws like that. The priest at my church was once arrested for refusing to remove bleachers (for watching the Thanksgiving Day Parade) from public property. The bleachers were on the church's private property and the officer refused to believe the area wasn't public property and neither did his sergeant. The case was thrown out of court, but it made me wonder how many other people in Detroit that stuff happened to. I don't think that situation was a racially motivated; two of the three people involved were white.

BN747 wrote:

Texas police officer shoots Black woman to death inside her home

I heard about this today on my way to work. I am surprised it took this long for someone to post about it. I can't even begin to explain how bad that is. Reports from the police themselves say the officer didn't identify himself. That alone is cause for serious alarm regardless of who got shot or where they were shot at. Shooting somebody through the window and it's the person who is supposed to be in the house is as bad as it gets and is inexcusable. From what I heard they were called to scene by a concerned neighbor who saw a door opened. I would think the officer would have wanted investigate things a bit to see who, if any one was in the house. It would be interesting to know exactly how the police were dispatched to the scene. That would tell us what they were expecting to find. A few years ago a student of mine was shot by police who were dispatched to what they were told was an 18 year old holding a knife to his mothers throat. They came in guns blazing and ready for a hostage situation the kid charged them with a blade and they shot him. It turned out the kid was alone and his mother was at work. A neighbor exaggerated the story, which was really just a drug addled teen acting strangely, in order to get the cops to show up faster. If they knew he was alone they would have sat him out and waited for a parent to come home. Five years ago a sheriff's deputy and a landlord were serving an eviction at the house next to mine. The renter thought he'd play a game so he called the city cops and said "there is a man with a gun pounding on my door demanding I exit my house". What he failed to mention was it was a uniformed sheriff, with an eviction notice. Six city cops showed up ready for a gunman, but there was none. You can't blame the police for overeating to either event I described because the police were going off the information they were given.

Update from Fort Worth. The officer involved in the shooting has resigned.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/us/fort- ... index.html

Fort Worth Mayor Betsy Price said the killing of Jefferson was unjustified.
"I'm so sorry. On behalf of the entire city of Fort Worth, I'm sorry," Price told reporters Monday. "To Atatiana's family, it's unacceptable. There is nothing that can justify what happened on Saturday morning. Nothing."

Tugger wrote:

Yeah, regarding the woman in Ft Worth being killed. At what point will people be justified in killing a responding police officer out a just fear of being killed in their home? It is beyond ridiculous. I have a big issue with the recent change in California law regarding what creates a "justified shooting" by an officer but based on these stories the changes are completely reasonable.

Apparently the officer who shot the woman in Ft Worth has resigned and will likely face charges:

The officer who fatally shot Atatiana Jefferson in her home Saturday morning has resigned, Fort Worth interim police chief Ed Kraus said Monday. The officer may face criminal charges, Kraus said.
Fort Worth Mayor Betsy Price said the killing of Jefferson was unjustified.
"I'm so sorry. On behalf of the entire city of Fort Worth, I'm sorry," Price told reporters Monday. "To Atatiana's family, it's unacceptable. There is nothing that can justify what happened on Saturday morning. Nothing."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/us/fort- ... index.html

Tugg

Someone in Texas (I believe) was already acquitted for shooting an officer who burst his way into his home without identifying himself. That said, shooting a random police officer because you are fearful of the 0.000000000001% chance that this officer is a crazed murderer is just as ludicrous as shooting a random Muslim because you are afraid that they are an ISIS member. People have to keep in mind that the reason these things are newsworthy is because they are incredibly rare. There are hundreds of millions of police interactions each year in the US and maybe a handful end up like this. There are a billion Muslims in the world and only a handful commit acts of terrorism. You get my drift.

N583JB wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Yeah, regarding the woman in Ft Worth being killed. At what point will people be justified in killing a responding police officer out a just fear of being killed in their home? It is beyond ridiculous. I have a big issue with the recent change in California law regarding what creates a "justified shooting" by an officer but based on these stories the changes are completely reasonable.

Apparently the officer who shot the woman in Ft Worth has resigned and will likely face charges:

The officer who fatally shot Atatiana Jefferson in her home Saturday morning has resigned, Fort Worth interim police chief Ed Kraus said Monday. The officer may face criminal charges, Kraus said.
Fort Worth Mayor Betsy Price said the killing of Jefferson was unjustified.
"I'm so sorry. On behalf of the entire city of Fort Worth, I'm sorry," Price told reporters Monday. "To Atatiana's family, it's unacceptable. There is nothing that can justify what happened on Saturday morning. Nothing."

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/14/us/fort- ... index.html

Tugg

Someone in Texas (I believe) was already acquitted for shooting an officer who burst his way into his home without identifying himself. That said, shooting a random police officer because you are fearful of the 0.000000000001% chance that this officer is a crazed murderer is just as ludicrous as shooting a random Muslim because you are afraid that they are an ISIS member. People have to keep in mind that the reason these things are newsworthy is because they are incredibly rare. There are hundreds of millions of police interactions each year in the US and maybe a handful end up like this. There are a billion Muslims in the world and only a handful commit acts of terrorism. You get my drift.

Yes, I do get what yoo are saying and I also agree. It just gets crazy when things like this happen and no matter what it is things like this that get the attention and people think it is the norm not the exception. We hear it all the time with things that people think are happening all the time or something is real when it is not and is actually just a hyped story or tweet or incident that everyone focuses on.

And for better or worse, it is the police who are the trained professionals and must act and react with a higher level than the general public. We must be able to expect that from them.

Tugg

The officer who shot the woman has been charged with murder-

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/14/us/f ... urder.html

Now we will have to wait for the trial and justice. I am glad that the DA is prosecuting this issue, and that the justice system will be engaged in full for this shooting.

I hurt for the families of all involved, as it was another senseless gun death,

casinterest wrote:

Now we will have to wait for the trial and justice. I am glad that the DA is prosecuting this issue, and that the justice system will be engaged in full for this shooting.

I hurt for the families of all involved, as it was another senseless gun death,

Wow, I thought you only advocated for the police to be armed? So what now? Tragedy, no doubt. But it is not indicative of the way policing gets done today.

extender wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Now we will have to wait for the trial and justice. I am glad that the DA is prosecuting this issue, and that the justice system will be engaged in full for this shooting.

I hurt for the families of all involved, as it was another senseless gun death,

Wow, I thought you only advocated for the police to be armed? So what now? Tragedy, no doubt. But it is not indicative of the way policing gets done today.

Do you have any other job other than to be an annoying gas lighter?

casinterest wrote:

Do you have any other job other than to be an annoying gas lighter?

You brought something up, and you contradict yourself in another thread. Instead of answering, you deflect. I am just pointing that fact out.

extender wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Do you have any other job other than to be an annoying gas lighter?

You brought something up, and you contradict yourself in another thread. Instead of answering, you deflect. I am just pointing that fact out.

I didn't contradict myself. Only someone like yourself would think i did.

BN747 wrote:

Black family arrested for ‘loitering’ on their own front lawn
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/10/black- ... ront-lawn/

Texas police officer shoots Black woman to death inside her home
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/te ... e-n1065451

...and nothing will be heard from America's leader of stoking hate and lawlessness in America.

But he will Tweet something stupid and insane in the next 30 minutes...

BN747

How do you we know the law enforcement involved in this did what they did out of hate? Horrible police work doesn't always result from racist behavior you are trying to make this political when it shouldn't be.

NIKV69 wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Black family arrested for ‘loitering’ on their own front lawn
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/10/black- ... ront-lawn/

Texas police officer shoots Black woman to death inside her home
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/te ... e-n1065451

...and nothing will be heard from America's leader of stoking hate and lawlessness in America.

But he will Tweet something stupid and insane in the next 30 minutes...

BN747

How do you we know the law enforcement involved in this did what they did out of hate? Horrible police work doesn't always result from racist behavior you are trying to make this political when it shouldn't be.

A black family arrested for being and a black woman shot for being. We all know if a white family were hanging out on their lawn, nothing would happen and if a white person had their door open for hours, the police would have simply knocked and asked if everything was okay. Happens all the time. Whites get to live their lives.

seb146 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Black family arrested for ‘loitering’ on their own front lawn
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/10/black- ... ront-lawn/

Texas police officer shoots Black woman to death inside her home
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/te ... e-n1065451

...and nothing will be heard from America's leader of stoking hate and lawlessness in America.

But he will Tweet something stupid and insane in the next 30 minutes...

BN747

How do you we know the law enforcement involved in this did what they did out of hate? Horrible police work doesn't always result from racist behavior you are trying to make this political when it shouldn't be.

A black family arrested for being and a black woman shot for being. We all know if a white family were hanging out on their lawn, nothing would happen and if a white person had their door open for hours, the police would have simply knocked and asked if everything was okay. Happens all the time. Whites get to live their lives.

Those are all assumptions. We don't "know" any of that. A white woman was shot and killed just for calling 911 in Minneapolis last year. Bad policing is just bad policing. There's nothing to suggest that there was a racial component to this shooting.

seb146 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

BN747 wrote:

Black family arrested for ‘loitering’ on their own front lawn
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/10/black- ... ront-lawn/

Texas police officer shoots Black woman to death inside her home
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/te ... e-n1065451

...and nothing will be heard from America's leader of stoking hate and lawlessness in America.

But he will Tweet something stupid and insane in the next 30 minutes...

BN747

How do you we know the law enforcement involved in this did what they did out of hate? Horrible police work doesn't always result from racist behavior you are trying to make this political when it shouldn't be.

A black family arrested for being and a black woman shot for being. We all know if a white family were hanging out on their lawn, nothing would happen and if a white person had their door open for hours, the police would have simply knocked and asked if everything was okay. Happens all the time. Whites get to live their lives.

Tell that to Justine

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... ho-called/

More white people have been shot by police than black people since 2017.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

N583JB wrote:

Bad policing is just bad policing. There's nothing to suggest that there was a racial component to this shooting.

Yes, bad policing happens regardless of race. I bet most of you never have heard of the 1988 Documentary "Thin Blue Line". Sloppy police work in Texas put a white man away for killing a cop and he wasn't even there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thin_ ... (1988_film)

If you haven't seen it and wonder how sloppy police work can happen you really need to watch it.

Kiwirob wrote:

seb146 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

How do you we know the law enforcement involved in this did what they did out of hate? Horrible police work doesn't always result from racist behavior you are trying to make this political when it shouldn't be.

A black family arrested for being and a black woman shot for being. We all know if a white family were hanging out on their lawn, nothing would happen and if a white person had their door open for hours, the police would have simply knocked and asked if everything was okay. Happens all the time. Whites get to live their lives.

Tell that to Justine

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... ho-called/

More white people have been shot by police than black people since 2017.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

Unarmed black people complying and obeying and just being and then being shot are different than white people waving guns around.....

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

How do you we know the law enforcement involved in this did what they did out of hate? Horrible police work doesn't always result from racist behavior you are trying to make this political when it shouldn't be.

A black family arrested for being and a black woman shot for being. We all know if a white family were hanging out on their lawn, nothing would happen and if a white person had their door open for hours, the police would have simply knocked and asked if everything was okay. Happens all the time. Whites get to live their lives.

Those are all assumptions. We don't "know" any of that.

We do know that. Those are litearlly linked in the first post. Go back and read the stories linked in the first post. We know this. There have been several reports of white people calling 911 to report black people. Not breaking into anything or dealing drugs or waving guns around but just black people being.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/5 ... hile-black

seb146 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

seb146 wrote:

A black family arrested for being and a black woman shot for being. We all know if a white family were hanging out on their lawn, nothing would happen and if a white person had their door open for hours, the police would have simply knocked and asked if everything was okay. Happens all the time. Whites get to live their lives.

Tell that to Justine

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... ho-called/

More white people have been shot by police than black people since 2017.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

Unarmed black people complying and obeying and just being and then being shot are different than white people waving guns around.....

Justine wasn't waving a gun around. She was an unarmed white woman who was shot and killed by a black police officer for no reason.

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

A black family arrested for being and a black woman shot for being. We all know if a white family were hanging out on their lawn, nothing would happen and if a white person had their door open for hours, the police would have simply knocked and asked if everything was okay. Happens all the time. Whites get to live their lives.

Those are all assumptions. We don't "know" any of that.

We do know that. Those are litearlly linked in the first post. Go back and read the stories linked in the first post. We know this. There have been several reports of white people calling 911 to report black people. Not breaking into anything or dealing drugs or waving guns around but just black people being.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/5 ... hile-black

No, we don't "know" that. You assume that, based on your own preconceived biases. None of what you said is fact. All of it is your own opinion.

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Those are all assumptions. We don't "know" any of that.

We do know that. Those are litearlly linked in the first post. Go back and read the stories linked in the first post. We know this. There have been several reports of white people calling 911 to report black people. Not breaking into anything or dealing drugs or waving guns around but just black people being.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/5 ... hile-black

No, we don't "know" that. You assume that, based on your own preconceived biases. None of what you said is fact. All of it is your own opinion.

Chester Township police arrested a family for loitering on their own lawn. We know this. It is public record. Not an opinion. A Ft. Worth police officer shot a woman playing video games with her nephew. Body cam footage shows him demanding she show her hands as he fires one round through a window and kills her. It is right there. All over the internet. Not an opinion. Every 911 call is recorded. Police must respond and file a report. These are public record and not opinion.

We are done.

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

We do know that. Those are litearlly linked in the first post. Go back and read the stories linked in the first post. We know this. There have been several reports of white people calling 911 to report black people. Not breaking into anything or dealing drugs or waving guns around but just black people being.

https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/5 ... hile-black

No, we don't "know" that. You assume that, based on your own preconceived biases. None of what you said is fact. All of it is your own opinion.

Chester Township police arrested a family for loitering on their own lawn. We know this. It is public record. Not an opinion. A Ft. Worth police officer shot a woman playing video games with her nephew. Body cam footage shows him demanding she show her hands as he fires one round through a window and kills her. It is right there. All over the internet. Not an opinion. Every 911 call is recorded. Police must respond and file a report. These are public record and not opinion.

We are done.

Please link to definitive proof that the officer in Fort Worth only shot this woman because she was black. I'll be waiting. Thanks in advance.

seb146 wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

seb146 wrote:

A black family arrested for being and a black woman shot for being. We all know if a white family were hanging out on their lawn, nothing would happen and if a white person had their door open for hours, the police would have simply knocked and asked if everything was okay. Happens all the time. Whites get to live their lives.

Tell that to Justine

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... ho-called/

More white people have been shot by police than black people since 2017.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

Unarmed black people complying and obeying and just being and then being shot are different than white people waving guns around.....

Justine wasn't waving a gun around. People shot by police are people shot by police, it doesn't matter what colour they are, you are making this into a racial issue when it's really a police incompetence issue. Not all the police officers shooting people are white, there are black officers involved as well.

Kiwirob wrote:

More white people have been shot by police than black people since 2017.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

Great, until you actually consider the facts and the context.
Fact; the data above (the data chosen by you) clearly shows there are a large number of unknown ethnicity, and in the case of the partial data for 2019, a ridiculously high percentage of the data is UNKNOWN.
I confess I don't have any confidence that the unknown data set is split in the same ratio as the known data.

Context; According to Wikipedia, the black population of the US is 13.4%, Hispanic 18.3% and white = 76.5% - which adds up to more than 100% because.....meh!
However, these are not unreasonable ball-park figures.

So, we absolutely should expect more white people to be shot than black. A lot more.

In fact we can expect more than twice as many white deaths as the combined total for [black + hispanic]

For 2017; is 457 anywhere close to more than twice [223 + 179] ? Er, no.
For 2018; is 399 anywhere close to more than twice [209 + 148] ? Same again.

Hence your statement is correct, but it totally lacks context.

Meanwhile - shock news - over in Europe, statistics show that almost all of the persons shot by the French Gendarmerie Nationale uttered their dying words en français.
Who would have guessed.....

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

More white people have been shot by police than black people since 2017.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

Great, until you actually consider the facts and the context.
Fact; the data above (the data chosen by you) clearly shows there are a large number of unknown ethnicity, and in the case of the partial data for 2019, a ridiculously high percentage of the data is UNKNOWN.
I confess I don't have any confidence that the unknown data set is split in the same ratio as the known data.

Context; According to Wikipedia, the black population of the US is 13.4%, Hispanic 18.3% and white = 76.5% - which adds up to more than 100% because.....meh!
However, these are not unreasonable ball-park figures.

So, we absolutely should expect more white people to be shot than black. A lot more.

In fact we can expect more than twice as many white deaths as the combined total for [black + hispanic]

For 2017; is 457 anywhere close to more than twice [223 + 179] ? Er, no.
For 2018; is 399 anywhere close to more than twice [209 + 148] ? Same again.

Hence your statement is correct, but it totally lacks context.

Meanwhile - shock news - over in Europe, statistics show that almost all of the persons shot by the French Gendarmerie Nationale uttered their dying words en français.
Who would have guessed.....

It is also important to note that despite making up 13% of the population, African-Americans made up 54% of homicide offenders in cases where race of the offender was known (source: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/20 ... d-homicide). So, it logically makes sense that the police would be more likely to be involved in violent encounters with a group that is much more likely to be involved in violent crime.

casinterest wrote:

Now we will have to wait for the trial and justice. I am glad that the DA is prosecuting this issue, and that the justice system will be engaged in full for this shooting.

I hurt for the families of all involved, as it was another senseless gun death,

It's not all on the cop though. Clearly training and attitude is completely wrong. Why is he alone ?

Why shoot first, ask questions later ?

Kiwirob wrote:

seb146 wrote:

NIKV69 wrote:

How do you we know the law enforcement involved in this did what they did out of hate? Horrible police work doesn't always result from racist behavior you are trying to make this political when it shouldn't be.

A black family arrested for being and a black woman shot for being. We all know if a white family were hanging out on their lawn, nothing would happen and if a white person had their door open for hours, the police would have simply knocked and asked if everything was okay. Happens all the time. Whites get to live their lives.

Tell that to Justine

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... ho-called/

More white people have been shot by police than black people since 2017.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

That statistic is embarrassingly misleading. Hint: adjust it for population composition.

delimit wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

seb146 wrote:

A black family arrested for being and a black woman shot for being. We all know if a white family were hanging out on their lawn, nothing would happen and if a white person had their door open for hours, the police would have simply knocked and asked if everything was okay. Happens all the time. Whites get to live their lives.

Tell that to Justine

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... ho-called/

More white people have been shot by police than black people since 2017.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

That statistic is embarrassingly misleading. Hint: adjust it for population composition.

So what, more is more, it's even greater if you consider hispanic people white, I don't see the difference myself, Finns, Swedes and Norwegians are white and so Italians, Greeks and Spanish.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

More white people have been shot by police than black people since 2017.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... e-by-race/

Great, until you actually consider the facts and the context.
Fact; the data above (the data chosen by you) clearly shows there are a large number of unknown ethnicity, and in the case of the partial data for 2019, a ridiculously high percentage of the data is UNKNOWN.
I confess I don't have any confidence that the unknown data set is split in the same ratio as the known data.

Context; According to Wikipedia, the black population of the US is 13.4%, Hispanic 18.3% and white = 76.5% - which adds up to more than 100% because.....meh!
However, these are not unreasonable ball-park figures.

So, we absolutely should expect more white people to be shot than black. A lot more.

In fact we can expect more than twice as many white deaths as the combined total for [black + hispanic]

For 2017; is 457 anywhere close to more than twice [223 + 179] ? Er, no.
For 2018; is 399 anywhere close to more than twice [209 + 148] ? Same again.

Hence your statement is correct, but it totally lacks context.

Meanwhile - shock news - over in Europe, statistics show that almost all of the persons shot by the French Gendarmerie Nationale uttered their dying words en français.
Who would have guessed.....

I would expect the vast majority of people shot by French police to be French, same as I would expect the vast majority of Australians shot by Australian police to be Australian, naturally the vast majority of people shot by American police are Americans, does it really matter what colour there skin is?? But plenty of people want to make it about skin colour and in that respect police shot more white people than anyone else.

If 13% of the population are being shot half as often as 75% of the population, that means the 13% group is being shot far more frequently. It's just simple maths. Presenting the total number without adjusting it is misleading.

For example, 737s crash more than any other plane.

Aesma wrote:

casinterest wrote:

Now we will have to wait for the trial and justice. I am glad that the DA is prosecuting this issue, and that the justice system will be engaged in full for this shooting.

I hurt for the families of all involved, as it was another senseless gun death,

It's not all on the cop though. Clearly training and attitude is completely wrong. Why is he alone ?

Why shoot first, ask questions later ?

That is what the murder investigation is for. To find out what the motives were. This could be just reckless intentions.

delimit wrote:

If 13% of the population are being shot half as often as 75% of the population, that means the 13% group is being shot far more frequently. It's just simple maths. Presenting the total number without adjusting it is misleading.

For example, 737s crash more than any other plane.

Your analysis though is also far too simplistic. You are saying adjustments need to be made for valid factors but then you are not also looking for other equally important and valid factors that will also impact the numbers and reasons for why people are shot.

I wish this were as simple a problem as some want to make it. These example being highlighted by the OP are unacceptable and need to be addressed and corrected, this cannot be "standard practice". But even doing that you will never remove fully individual failures that will occur in such human interactions. The important thing will be that they are anomalous and not the norm.

The loitering law thing I really don't get and it really does smack of a "legal way" to harass otherwise non-law breaking situations and individuals, which can then become a tool for any racially motivated person to use improperly. That needs to be stopped. If people congregate on a lawn in front of a home it should at least be assumed that the people are engaged with something with the homeowner. If something is looking wrong, then go ahead and engage and properly assess the situtation but if it turns into just harassment or becomes a tool for harassment then the community and law enforcement needs to get together and end that. Community engagement is a must for all.

The gun issue? Gun control, better laws and clearly stated processes for how any situation will be dealt with. What do you do when you have a homeowner confronting and unknown armed assailant outside their home? What do you do when a police officer sees an armed person inside a home? Is a private citizen required to follow the direction of an unknown person pointing a weapon at them? Drop their personal protection and lay down? What if it is not a police officer, just someone looking to get the advantage? What is the officer supposed to do? And the truth is the person who targets and shoots first is normally the one with the best chance to survive. But that doesn't mean it will be a favorable resolution of the situation.

Tugg

delimit wrote:

If 13% of the population are being shot half as often as 75% of the population, that means the 13% group is being shot far more frequently. It's just simple maths. Presenting the total number without adjusting it is misleading.

For example, 737s crash more than any other plane.

If Ford Mustangs made up 13% of all cars on the road, but Fort Mustangs were involved in 54% of all fatal traffic accidents, I'd expect Ford Mustangs to be pulled over more frequently than other vehicles.

Tugger wrote:

delimit wrote:

If 13% of the population are being shot half as often as 75% of the population, that means the 13% group is being shot far more frequently. It's just simple maths. Presenting the total number without adjusting it is misleading.

For example, 737s crash more than any other plane.

Your analysis though is also far too simplistic. You are saying adjustments need to be made for valid factors but then you are not also looking for other equally important and valid factors that will also impact the numbers and reasons for why people are shot.

I wish this were as simple a problem as some want to make it. These example being highlighted by the OP are unacceptable and need to be addressed and corrected, this cannot be "standard practice". But even doing that you will never remove fully individual failures that will occur in such human interactions. The important thing will be that they are anomalous and not the norm.

The loitering law thing I really don't get and it really does smack of a "legal way" to harass otherwise non-law breaking situations and individuals, which can then become a tool for any racially motivated person to use improperly. That needs to be stopped. If people congregate on a lawn in front of a home it should at least be assumed that the people are engaged with something with the homeowner. If something is looking wrong, then go ahead and engage and properly assess the situtation but if it turns into just harassment or becomes a tool for harassment then the community and law enforcement needs to get together and end that. Community engagement is a must for all.

The gun issue? Gun control, better laws and clearly stated processes for how any situation will be dealt with. What do you do when you have a homeowner confronting and unknown armed assailant outside their home? What do you do when a police officer sees an armed person inside a home? Is a private citizen required to follow the direction of an unknown person pointing a weapon at them? Drop their personal protection and lay down? What if it is not a police officer, just someone looking to get the advantage? What is the officer supposed to do? And the truth is the person who targets and shoots first is normally the one with the best chance to survive. But that doesn't mean it will be a favorable resolution of the situation.

Tugg

There are a lot of contributing factors to the fact that black people are more likely to be shot than white people. I wasn't really drawing conclusions about them; just pointing out that presenting raw numbers without context is plainly misleading.

N583JB wrote:

delimit wrote:

If 13% of the population are being shot half as often as 75% of the population, that means the 13% group is being shot far more frequently. It's just simple maths. Presenting the total number without adjusting it is misleading.

For example, 737s crash more than any other plane.

If Ford Mustangs made up 13% of all cars on the road, but Fort Mustangs were involved in 54% of all fatal traffic accidents, I'd expect Ford Mustangs to be pulled over more frequently than other vehicles.

That's poor policy. If there was something external contributing to the Mustang accidents I would expect that to be studied and addressed rather than penalizing Mustang drivers.

delimit wrote:

N583JB wrote:

delimit wrote:

If 13% of the population are being shot half as often as 75% of the population, that means the 13% group is being shot far more frequently. It's just simple maths. Presenting the total number without adjusting it is misleading.

For example, 737s crash more than any other plane.

If Ford Mustangs made up 13% of all cars on the road, but Fort Mustangs were involved in 54% of all fatal traffic accidents, I'd expect Ford Mustangs to be pulled over more frequently than other vehicles.

That's poor policy. If there was something external contributing to the Mustang accidents I would expect that to be studied and addressed rather than penalizing Mustang drivers.

Police departments are not meant to solve poverty. They are meant to enforce the law. Society needs to correct its own ills. In the meantime the officers on the street can only deal with the circumstances that they are presented with each shift. If someone is shooting at them, they don't have time to think, "Well, maybe this person had a poor childhood, was malnourished, and started a life of crime because society failed them."

N583JB wrote:

delimit wrote:

N583JB wrote:

If Ford Mustangs made up 13% of all cars on the road, but Fort Mustangs were involved in 54% of all fatal traffic accidents, I'd expect Ford Mustangs to be pulled over more frequently than other vehicles.

That's poor policy. If there was something external contributing to the Mustang accidents I would expect that to be studied and addressed rather than penalizing Mustang drivers.

Police departments are not meant to solve poverty. They are meant to enforce the law. Society needs to correct its own ills. In the meantime the officers on the street can only deal with the circumstances that they are presented with each shift. If someone is shooting at them, they don't have time to think, "Well, maybe this person had a poor childhood, was malnourished, and started a life of crime because society failed them."

How did we get from Mustangs to poverty? You've jumped ahead a few steps and are now arguing against yourself.

You can't make conclusions from either the Mustang number or the 737 number. You need to investigate it and enforce accordingly. Not investigating it leads you to infringe more frequently on Mustang drivers than is perhaps warranted. If you decide to just target Mustangs anyway you've enacted a poor policy.

Police are not expected to solve the underlying issues. They are, however, expected to have policing policies which account for them so they react appropriately. Rather than, say, shooting a woman playing video games while making a welfare check.

delimit wrote:

N583JB wrote:

delimit wrote:

That's poor policy. If there was something external contributing to the Mustang accidents I would expect that to be studied and addressed rather than penalizing Mustang drivers.

Police departments are not meant to solve poverty. They are meant to enforce the law. Society needs to correct its own ills. In the meantime the officers on the street can only deal with the circumstances that they are presented with each shift. If someone is shooting at them, they don't have time to think, "Well, maybe this person had a poor childhood, was malnourished, and started a life of crime because society failed them."

How did we get from Mustangs to poverty? You've jumped ahead a few steps and are now arguing against yourself.

You can't make conclusions from either the Mustang number or the 737 number. You need to investigate it and enforce accordingly. Not investigating it leads you to infringe more frequently on Mustang drivers than is perhaps warranted. If you decide to just target Mustangs anyway you've enacted a poor policy.

Police are not expected to solve the underlying issues. They are, however, expected to have policing policies which account for them so they react appropriately. Rather than, say, shooting a woman playing video games while making a welfare check.

You said that external factors need to be addressed. I agree, but that is not something that the police need to address. And that is not something that can be addressed quickly. As I said earlier, the officers are concerned with doing their job and with going home alive at the end of their shift.

Shooting someone playing a video game during a welfare check is already against policy. That's why the officer who did this resigned before he could be fired and was arrested and charged with murder.

N583JB wrote:

delimit wrote:

N583JB wrote:

If Ford Mustangs made up 13% of all cars on the road, but Fort Mustangs were involved in 54% of all fatal traffic accidents, I'd expect Ford Mustangs to be pulled over more frequently than other vehicles.

That's poor policy. If there was something external contributing to the Mustang accidents I would expect that to be studied and addressed rather than penalizing Mustang drivers.

Police departments are not meant to solve poverty. They are meant to enforce the law. Society needs to correct its own ills. "

Well since 'those police' come from said society, then society must improve their standard of acceptable policing.
You don't make individuals with poor judgement 'police' anything. Unfortunately, not many good people want that job (understandably so) but somebody has to do it.

So in many cases when need bodies in empty slots...even incompetent bodies which results in 'bad policing'.

BN747

N583JB wrote:

delimit wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Police departments are not meant to solve poverty. They are meant to enforce the law. Society needs to correct its own ills. In the meantime the officers on the street can only deal with the circumstances that they are presented with each shift. If someone is shooting at them, they don't have time to think, "Well, maybe this person had a poor childhood, was malnourished, and started a life of crime because society failed them."

How did we get from Mustangs to poverty? You've jumped ahead a few steps and are now arguing against yourself.

You can't make conclusions from either the Mustang number or the 737 number. You need to investigate it and enforce accordingly. Not investigating it leads you to infringe more frequently on Mustang drivers than is perhaps warranted. If you decide to just target Mustangs anyway you've enacted a poor policy.

Police are not expected to solve the underlying issues. They are, however, expected to have policing policies which account for them so they react appropriately. Rather than, say, shooting a woman playing video games while making a welfare check.

You said that external factors need to be addressed. I agree, but that is not something that the police need to address. And that is not something that can be addressed quickly. As I said earlier, the officers are concerned with doing their job and with going home alive at the end of their shift.

Shooting someone playing a video game during a welfare check is already against policy. That's why the officer who did this resigned before he could be fired and was arrested and charged with murder.

If the thing that makes Mustangs go boom a lot is people standing on the side or the road shooting at them because they think Mustangs are terrible, stopping Mustangs more frequently is both the wrong decision and an unnecessary infringement on the liberties of Mustang drivers.

We started this because you responded that you would expect a population being involved more frequently to also be investigated more frequently; and that's what I am replying to.Without any investigation you are simply saying, essentially; where there is smoke there is fire. That is insufficient justification to target a population.

N583JB wrote:

delimit wrote:

N583JB wrote:

If Ford Mustangs made up 13% of all cars on the road, but Fort Mustangs were involved in 54% of all fatal traffic accidents, I'd expect Ford Mustangs to be pulled over more frequently than other vehicles.

That's poor policy. If there was something external contributing to the Mustang accidents I would expect that to be studied and addressed rather than penalizing Mustang drivers.

Police departments are not meant to solve poverty.

wow. just wow.

Take into account that some of those people who were driving while black, walking while black, eating dinner while black were gunned down doing perfectly normal and legal things they can afford because they have jobs.

White people are on welfare at higher rates than blacks. That has nothing at all to do with why blacks are killed at a higher rate by law enforcement.

delimit wrote:

N583JB wrote:

delimit wrote:

How did we get from Mustangs to poverty? You've jumped ahead a few steps and are now arguing against yourself.

You can't make conclusions from either the Mustang number or the 737 number. You need to investigate it and enforce accordingly. Not investigating it leads you to infringe more frequently on Mustang drivers than is perhaps warranted. If you decide to just target Mustangs anyway you've enacted a poor policy.

Police are not expected to solve the underlying issues. They are, however, expected to have policing policies which account for them so they react appropriately. Rather than, say, shooting a woman playing video games while making a welfare check.

You said that external factors need to be addressed. I agree, but that is not something that the police need to address. And that is not something that can be addressed quickly. As I said earlier, the officers are concerned with doing their job and with going home alive at the end of their shift.

Shooting someone playing a video game during a welfare check is already against policy. That's why the officer who did this resigned before he could be fired and was arrested and charged with murder.

If the thing that makes Mustangs go boom a lot is people standing on the side or the road shooting at them because they think Mustangs are terrible, stopping Mustangs more frequently is both the wrong decision and an unnecessary infringement on the liberties of Mustang drivers.

We started this because you responded that you would expect a population being involved more frequently to also be investigated more frequently; and that's what I am replying to.Without any investigation you are simply saying, essentially; where there is smoke there is fire. That is insufficient justification to target a population.

No population is "targeted". This is simply a cause and effect relationship. If group X is much more likely to be involved in violent crimes than group Y, then the police have a higher likelihood of getting into violent altercations with group X than they do with group Y.

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

delimit wrote:

That's poor policy. If there was something external contributing to the Mustang accidents I would expect that to be studied and addressed rather than penalizing Mustang drivers.

Police departments are not meant to solve poverty.

wow. just wow.

Take into account that some of those people who were driving while black, walking while black, eating dinner while black were gunned down doing perfectly normal and legal things they can afford because they have jobs.

White people are on welfare at higher rates than blacks. That has nothing at all to do with why blacks are killed at a higher rate by law enforcement.

Please link to some of these people who were killed simply because they happened to be black. We're all ears. I guess Justine in Minneapolis was killed by a black cop just because she happened to be white?

Blacks are killed at a higher rate by law enforcement because statistically black people are much, much more likely to be involved in violent crime than other demographic groups. There's a reason why 1,000+ people are killed by the police each year and why only a handful of those shootings are even questionable. Shootings like the one in this thread make the news because they are rare and they are the exception rather than the norm.

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Police departments are not meant to solve poverty.

wow. just wow.

Take into account that some of those people who were driving while black, walking while black, eating dinner while black were gunned down doing perfectly normal and legal things they can afford because they have jobs.

White people are on welfare at higher rates than blacks. That has nothing at all to do with why blacks are killed at a higher rate by law enforcement.

Please link to some of these people who were killed simply because they happened to be black. We're all ears. I guess Justine in Minneapolis was killed by a black cop just because she happened to be white?

Blacks are killed at a higher rate by law enforcement because statistically black people are much, much more likely to be involved in violent crime than other demographic groups. There's a reason why 1,000+ people are killed by the police each year and why only a handful of those shootings are even questionable. Shootings like the one in this thread make the news because they are rare and they are the exception rather than the norm.

Responding to a 911 call about a crime in progress is completely different than driving down the street and being pulled over for your skin color. Because "people like you" can't drive nice cars. For sitting on their own porch. For playing video games in their own home. Two completely different things.

https://www.aclu.org/report/driving-whi ... s-highways
https://www.insightnews.com/news/drivin ... fdf35.html
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ ... story.html
https://www.mprnews.org/crime-law-and-j ... ndocastile
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/walte ... rs-n825006

Totally the same thing....

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

wow. just wow.

Take into account that some of those people who were driving while black, walking while black, eating dinner while black were gunned down doing perfectly normal and legal things they can afford because they have jobs.

White people are on welfare at higher rates than blacks. That has nothing at all to do with why blacks are killed at a higher rate by law enforcement.

Please link to some of these people who were killed simply because they happened to be black. We're all ears. I guess Justine in Minneapolis was killed by a black cop just because she happened to be white?

Blacks are killed at a higher rate by law enforcement because statistically black people are much, much more likely to be involved in violent crime than other demographic groups. There's a reason why 1,000+ people are killed by the police each year and why only a handful of those shootings are even questionable. Shootings like the one in this thread make the news because they are rare and they are the exception rather than the norm.

Responding to a 911 call about a crime in progress is completely different than driving down the street and being pulled over for your skin color. Because "people like you" can't drive nice cars. For sitting on their own porch. For playing video games in their own home. Two completely different things.

https://www.aclu.org/report/driving-whi ... s-highways
https://www.insightnews.com/news/drivin ... fdf35.html
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ ... story.html
https://www.mprnews.org/crime-law-and-j ... ndocastile
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/walte ... rs-n825006

Totally the same thing....

Way to move the goalposts.

The woman in Texas was killed by a cop who responded to a 911 call. I guess you think that the officer didn't do anything wrong, then? You can' have it both ways. Also, your links don't support anything you said. Please, once again, show us examples of people who were murdered while eating simply because they were black. You tried, but you didn't produce.

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Please link to some of these people who were killed simply because they happened to be black. We're all ears. I guess Justine in Minneapolis was killed by a black cop just because she happened to be white?

Blacks are killed at a higher rate by law enforcement because statistically black people are much, much more likely to be involved in violent crime than other demographic groups. There's a reason why 1,000+ people are killed by the police each year and why only a handful of those shootings are even questionable. Shootings like the one in this thread make the news because they are rare and they are the exception rather than the norm.

Responding to a 911 call about a crime in progress is completely different than driving down the street and being pulled over for your skin color. Because "people like you" can't drive nice cars. For sitting on their own porch. For playing video games in their own home. Two completely different things.

https://www.aclu.org/report/driving-whi ... s-highways
https://www.insightnews.com/news/drivin ... fdf35.html
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ ... story.html
https://www.mprnews.org/crime-law-and-j ... ndocastile
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/walte ... rs-n825006

Totally the same thing....

Way to move the goalposts.

The woman in Texas was killed by a cop who responded to a 911 call. I guess you think that the officer didn't do anything wrong, then? You can' have it both ways. Also, your links don't support anything you said. Please, once again, show us examples of people who were murdered while eating simply because they were black. You tried, but you didn't produce.

Not moving the goalposts. Providing facts. Which are inconvenient to some.

The officers you are talking about also were telling each other to keep quiet. But, yeah, one white woman being shot by cops who did not know what was going on is totally the same as those black people I linked to who were simply obeying the law and ended up dead. Black families being and end up in handcuffs. Black children playing in the park and shot by police. Totally the same.

seb146 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

seb146 wrote:

Responding to a 911 call about a crime in progress is completely different than driving down the street and being pulled over for your skin color. Because "people like you" can't drive nice cars. For sitting on their own porch. For playing video games in their own home. Two completely different things.

https://www.aclu.org/report/driving-whi ... s-highways
https://www.insightnews.com/news/drivin ... fdf35.html
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ ... story.html
https://www.mprnews.org/crime-law-and-j ... ndocastile
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/walte ... rs-n825006

Totally the same thing....

Way to move the goalposts.

The woman in Texas was killed by a cop who responded to a 911 call. I guess you think that the officer didn't do anything wrong, then? You can' have it both ways. Also, your links don't support anything you said. Please, once again, show us examples of people who were murdered while eating simply because they were black. You tried, but you didn't produce.

Not moving the goalposts. Providing facts. Which are inconvenient to some.

The officers you are talking about also were telling each other to keep quiet. But, yeah, one white woman being shot by cops who did not know what was going on is totally the same as those black people I linked to who were simply obeying the law and ended up dead. Black families being and end up in handcuffs. Black children playing in the park and shot by police. Totally the same.

Which black people are you referring to? You keep listing these mystical people but refuse to provide examples. Are you saying that Justine deserved to be killed? Why are you defending the officer who killed her? Why are white people shot by police more often than black people, despite black males making up only 7% of the population but representing over 50% of all known homicide perpetrators? Also, linking to cases in which officers went to prison for shooting someone kinda reinforces my point. No one is saying that Walter Scott deserved to be shot. The officer who killed him is in prison. That's kind of how the system works.

N583JB wrote:

Which black people are you referring to? You keep listing these mystical people but refuse to provide examples. Are you saying that Justine deserved to be killed? Why are you defending the officer who killed her? Why are white people shot by police more often than black people.

Not sure the "but loads of white people are shot too" defense is really helping the police' image...