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BN747
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Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:51 pm

First American Terrorist: Columbus
http://www.americanindiansource.com/columbus.html

Columbus was a mass killer and the father of the slave trade
https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/hist ... lave-trade

A revisit from History can be a bitch....the correction of taught and learned 'History' has been subject to retooling just as everything involving human events.

Once proud relatives of such former heroes, are now going underground and dodging the spotlight as the reality of the day overtakes folklore and fables/

How much does it bother you to hear/read what you been told was all bunk.

How to be angry with? Past authors? Writers of the era (for not recording the truth -some clearly did because of the historical revisits) or our teachers/professors who taught us. Or ourselves for buying lock stock and barrell without question...because we didn't know who to 'question'.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
N583JB
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:04 pm

History is a matter of perspective. I believe it is unfair to judge historical figures based on current-day moral standards. Native American tribes were at war with each other far before the arrival of Europeans. Conquest was the name of the game back then. Columbus may have been brutal, but that was the norm in that time.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:08 pm

History is always re-interpreted and re-written to suit our current needs. It's through history we justify ourselves. Without history, nobody has an identity.

When Switzerland was embroiled in the Nazi gold affair (mid-1990ies), I asked my teacher whether he had old history textbooks. He loaned me some. Those from the 50ies and 60ies didn't mention anything critical, Switzerland always acted honorable, defended freedom and whatever... :crazy:
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
NIKV69
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:08 pm

BN747 wrote:
How much does it bother you to hear/read what you been told was all bunk.

BN747


It doesn't at all. This is your perspective and your spin. It lives in your head and that is where it should stay.

Carry on.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:41 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
How much does it bother you to hear/read what you been told was all bunk.

BN747


It doesn't at all. This is your perspective and your spin. It lives in your head and that is where it should stay.

Carry on.


Exhibit A.

I never said it bothers me..all I see is, I asked a simple questions...and Exhibit A goes off the deep end in attempting a simple answer....speaks volumes.

The correct response would have been 'It doesn't at all.'..period, speaking for himself.

But the angonizing twist and turns point to 'it bothers the hell out of me'..which means you lied.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:51 pm

If Columbus was the father of the slave trade, it’d be news to the Romans and Arabs hundreds of years earlier. It’d also be news to the hundreds of black slavers operating inland from Dakar, Accra and the other slaveports.

GF
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:54 pm

N583JB wrote:
History is a matter of perspective. I believe it is unfair to judge historical figures based on current-day moral standards. Native American tribes were at war with each other far before the arrival of Europeans. Conquest was the name of the game back then. Columbus may have been brutal, but that was the norm in that time.


Ummm that is a rather skewered view of things, you are equating Native American tribal warfare to the European-on-European slaughter....you do know that there's no comparison, right?
And then the Euros brought their brand of extraordinary barbarity to the 'New World'..so that makes it ok because the Natives were warring themselves? Got it...



flyingturtle wrote:
History is always re-interpreted and re-written to suit our current needs.

I see, so it is to 'suit' or needs of 'what exactly'?




flyingturtle wrote:
It's through history we justify ourselves. Without history, nobody has an identity.


Well that is true, but telling is the term 'to justify'. Exactly that.


flyingturtle wrote:
When Switzerland was embroiled in the Nazi gold affair (mid-1990ies), I asked my teacher whether he had old history textbooks. He loaned me some. Those from the 50ies and 60ies didn't mention anything critical, Switzerland always acted honorable, defended freedom and whatever... :crazy:


True again....so we are still incorrectly recording our history!?

I'd go so far to say we are (and have been) recording 'what makes us feel good'...with growing and expanding resistance to do that and break the pattern.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:57 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If Columbus was the father of the slave trade, it’d be news to the Romans and Arabs hundreds of years earlier.

The Romans & Arabs had nothing to do with the American slave trade. You might as well blame the Brazilians to in that equation..it's not a singular event.


GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’d also be news to the hundreds of black slavers operating inland from Dakar, Accra and the other slaveports.

GF


Sure, under duress and guns, you would do so too...or die. So what's your point?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
THS214
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:02 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
How much does it bother you to hear/read what you been told was all bunk.

BN747


It doesn't at all. This is your perspective and your spin. It lives in your head and that is where it should stay.

Carry on.


500 years ago all those voyages were paid by king or other wealthy people. They wanted their share when those ships came back (new territories, gold, silk etc.) but money one way or another. It is well known that stealing was the name of the game back then and of course that needed war, terrorism, slavery etc. Columbus was no different.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:33 pm

BN747 wrote:

I never said it bothers me..

BN747


You didn't have to, you started the thread.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
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F737NG
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:43 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
It doesn't at all. This is your perspective and your spin. It lives in your head and that is where it should stay.

Carry on.



BN747 wrote:
Exhibit A.

I never said it bothers me..all I see is, I asked a simple questions...and Exhibit A goes off the deep end in attempting a simple answer....speaks volumes.

The correct response would have been 'It doesn't at all.'..period, speaking for himself.

But the angonizing twist and turns point to 'it bothers the hell out of me'..which means you lied.

BN747



Typical of social media these days.

Someone says something which most people are going to find controversial, then goes on to tell anyone who disagrees, even with coherent counterarguments or facts, that they are [insert name-calling or insult here].
No other position or argument other than the OP's is allowed.

Boils down to the OP stating: "I'm right, you're wrong. You have to think the same way I do."

And before anyone takes the moral high ground, this is a problem on both the political left or right, afflicting the young and the old equally.

FFS [smh]. No wonder people can't engage in discourse with each other civilly any more.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:35 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
History is always re-interpreted and re-written to suit our current needs. It's through history we justify ourselves. Without history, nobody has an identity.

When Switzerland was embroiled in the Nazi gold affair (mid-1990ies), I asked my teacher whether he had old history textbooks. He loaned me some. Those from the 50ies and 60ies didn't mention anything critical, Switzerland always acted honorable, defended freedom and whatever... :crazy:


History should be about FACTS and what we can LEARN from them to better ourselves.
No nothing "(re-)interpretation" or "re-writing".
 
meecrob
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:47 pm

If you have made it this far in life without realizing some pretty nasty stuff went down colonizing the Americas, my mind is blown. I'm an average guy with average intelligence who went to an average school and by age 9 or 10 could figure out that if a bunch of white people went to a place where there were only non-white people and 500 years later its all white people, chances are the non-white people got screwed over royally. No textbook had to tell me this...its kinda obvious. Similarly, I don't have to ask at a closed-casket funeral if the deceased suffered horrific facial injuries...again, its kinda obvious. Why is it that every time someone smokes a joint they have to tell us obvious stuff like this as if they are Morpheus giving us the red pill in the Matrix? News Flash: everyone else gets it but you!
 
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casinterest
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:18 am

Dieuwer wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
History is always re-interpreted and re-written to suit our current needs. It's through history we justify ourselves. Without history, nobody has an identity.

When Switzerland was embroiled in the Nazi gold affair (mid-1990ies), I asked my teacher whether he had old history textbooks. He loaned me some. Those from the 50ies and 60ies didn't mention anything critical, Switzerland always acted honorable, defended freedom and whatever... :crazy:


History should be about FACTS and what we can LEARN from them to better ourselves.
No nothing "(re-)interpretation" or "re-writing".


History is always interpreted, and much of it depends on perspective.
There are some ugly facts about what resulted from Columbus's explorations, however if it hadn't been Columbus, it would have been someone else. All the Europeans were looking for a cheaper route to get the resources from India and China( Sounds familiar right?) to avoid the fighting and cost of protection going through the old spice roads( sounds familiar right? ) Industrialization was right around the corner, and the age of enlightenment was just starting. It doesn't mean that it is all roses. It is history. Each generation should strive to be better than the one before it. Columbus's story is mostly one of discovery and adventure for those that choose to see it that way. For others it can be a story of plague and plundering of a civilization. It can also be seen as a mix.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:25 am

The revisionist history in the USA as to Christopher Columbus began in the 1970's as Indigenous Americans started to assert their Civil Rights after hundreds of years of genocide and other horrors. They took lessons from the Black Civil Rights movements, sadly with a few violent confrontations (Wounded Knee) to challenge White rule. Indigenous Americans took to using Columbus as a symbolic figure of the beginning of Indigenous genocide, with later settlements by White Europeans he triggered. Some school textbooks and cultural references changed how they looked at Columbus due to more diverse schools and society. A movie another poster referred to, '1492' released in 1992 was a big flop due to the view it depicted Columbus as due to changing attitudes over the years. Columbus also became and still is a symbol of Italians in America despite his bad history.
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:27 am

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:

I never said it bothers me..

BN747


You didn't have to, you started the thread.


We all start threads for various reasons but largely to solicit/share/challenge opinions.
When I start a thread on science..am I angry at science - No!
When you start a thread on sports, are you angry? No.

Controversial topics are the nature of every chat methods.
Then of course when the racists bring that part of them into a discussion..well you know what's going to happen.

Why would this thread disturb me of all people? I think it is great that we are taking an eraser to the whitewashed BS we've been told.

It's you that has a problem with it but not stones to admit it but serve up more lies & nonsense. And zero subtsance.

BN747

F737NG wrote:
Typical of social media these days.

Someone says something which most people are going to find controversial, then goes on to tell anyone who disagrees, even with coherent counterarguments or facts, that they are [insert name-calling or insult here].
No other position or argument other than the OP's is allowed.

Boils down to the OP stating: "I'm right, you're wrong. You have to think the same way I do."

And before anyone takes the moral high ground, this is a problem on both the political left or right, afflicting the young and the old equally.

FFS [smh]. No wonder people can't engage in discourse with each other civilly any more.


Are you at least of age with that childlike view of where social interaction has led us?

People were always malcontents in social situations were they can/could air them.

Social Media simply gives everyone the means to chime in on EVERYTHING in any way they see fit - when not banned. And even then you have plenty of option to pursue.

Social Media's shield of anonymity allows anyone to act out, challenge, be rude and viciously contention as they want...and act in ways MOST would dare not in person.
..and they weakest people do that the most, because in person they cannot.

In person, bad behavior is socially unacceptable, but it does happen.

but 'reality behavior' vs 'social media behavior' are mutually exclusive and it is up to us all on how we balance that in both spheres.

YOU:No wonder people can't engage in discourse with each other civilly any more.



Maybe not for you, but not for most people. Those who choose not to engage social media will be the losers because Social Media is the norm now and it is not leaving. It will only expand and alter it's platforms and mediums.

The civility is there, but make no mistake...if you or anyone brings unabated ignorance into many social circles - it will be called out and attacked just the atypical unprovoked attacks.

It's the road rules on social media freeways.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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seb146
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:34 am

I saw the "Adam Ruins Everything" video talking about Columbus. It sounds as though all he did was murder and plunder Carribean Islands. The Norse were exploring Canada before Columbus set foot on Hispaniola so I wonder why we do not celebrate the Norse?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
TSS
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:18 am

seb146 wrote:
I saw the "Adam Ruins Everything" video talking about Columbus. It sounds as though all he did was murder and plunder Carribean Islands. The Norse were exploring Canada before Columbus set foot on Hispaniola so I wonder why we do not celebrate the Norse?


The Norse didn't document their explorations in the Americas nearly as well as Columbus did his. Until relatively recently when archeological finds proved they were true, Norse stories of exploring what turned out to be the Americas were considered fables.
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
ltbewr
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:18 am

seb146 wrote:
I saw the "Adam Ruins Everything" video talking about Columbus. It sounds as though all he did was murder and plunder Carribean Islands. The Norse were exploring Canada before Columbus set foot on Hispaniola so I wonder why we do not celebrate the Norse?

The Norse settlements in what would be Nova Scotia didn't last due to changes in climate, there was a cycle of warmer weather during their exploration and settlement period, that ended as colder weather cycle came in the 1200's-1300's.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:29 am

BN747 wrote:


Then of course when the racists





See? You only start threads here for one reason. We all see it and everyone knows it. My football thread was started to have a discussion. You started this thread for the same reason you start all your threads to make the white people the villian for any minority. It's old and played out. It's what is keeping this country divided and for our government to ever work again we have to stop the trolling.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:17 am

seb146 wrote:
The Norse were exploring Canada before Columbus set foot on Hispaniola so I wonder why we do not celebrate the Norse?

TSS wrote:
The Norse didn't document their explorations in the Americas nearly as well as Columbus did his. Until relatively recently...., Norse stories of exploring what turned out to be the Americas were considered fables.
You beat me to it!
Hard evidence, and better still, accurate documentation is everything.

It's the same with MTV; when they come up with a list of the "Top 50 {think of a category} hits", what they really mean is anything that has a video associated with it. Any music say from the 50's or 60's that fails to have must watch video simply never happened. The Norsemen should have made a video diary of their journey. :lol:

Of course it didn't help that Leif Erikson made landfall in Newfoundland, instead of going the extra mile and hitting what would one day become US territory.
Canada? Meh, close, but no cigar!
Giovanni Caboto, commonly referred to as John Cabot, made the same mistake.
In fact it was his son, Sebastiano, who ventured further south, possibly reaching as far as Chesapeake Bay. Don't know if he made landfall anywhere though.

What I find faintly ridiculous is the paucity of records and hard evidence supporting the various claims for "discovering" North America.
For comparison, some 1500 years earlier in 55 BC the Romans invaded Britain, at a time when maps, navigation, and vessels were far more primitive. Even so, their landing sites can be nailed down to fairly precise locations.
I suppose the counterpoint to that is that at least we can all be 100% certain that the Mayflower Piligrims landed on Plymouth Rock.
Oh, wait.....

Image
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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seb146
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:44 am

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:


Then of course when the racists





See? You only start threads here for one reason. We all see it and everyone knows it. My football thread was started to have a discussion. You started this thread for the same reason you start all your threads to make the white people the villian for any minority. It's old and played out. It's what is keeping this country divided and for our government to ever work again we have to stop the trolling.


Or it could be s/he is showing a different point of view. Not just the white washed far right wing Christian male point of view. Why so offended by showing who Columbus was? That he was greedy and blood thirsty? What is wrong with showing the other part of history?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:11 am

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:


Then of course when the racists





See? You only start threads here for one reason. We all see it and everyone knows it. My football thread was started to have a discussion. You started this thread for the same reason you start all your threads to make the white people the villian for any minority. It's old and played out. It's what is keeping this country divided and for our government to ever work again we have to stop the trolling.



Well any issue with a racial element attached is going to trigger Racist everywhere. Just as you always do. You people can't help yourselves.

You have no idea why I started this thread.

I myself use to call Thanksgiving 'Thanks to Killing the Natives Day'....

That holiday is built on a false premise just as is the story of Christopher Columbus.

These two events are taking in a huge change of perception as society smartens itself. You are a part of the resistance to that change because your sensibilities of the old world of comfort that you love is crumbling all over the place...it's why you cannot resist striking out the way that you do.

Me? Yes this is a controversial issue and it is undergoing a sweeping change as to how it's history is being told or being corrected.

It is your simpleminded anger that's the issue. You such corrective measures intolerable thus your attitude - only racist hate this stuff, no one else.

So yes, I started this controversial thread knowing full well you and the few remaining few like you would chime in as you have...20 years ago, it'd be two of us welcoming this change (combating 50 or so like you)..today the racist are out numbered 10 fold.

If this is an indication of attitudinal change, then like society, chamge is everywhere...even here.

But there are those who'll fight against with every excuse they can think of including bitching about the reason why people (me) discuss such things.
Plus I find some topics, like what you ate yesterday, word games, favorite shoes, etc...extremely boring. But respectful steer clear of those topics, then there are topics like this...that draws the ire of the same old types.

Thanks for playing...

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Mortyman
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:19 am

seb146 wrote:
I saw the "Adam Ruins Everything" video talking about Columbus. It sounds as though all he did was murder and plunder Carribean Islands. The Norse were exploring Canada before Columbus set foot on Hispaniola so I wonder why we do not celebrate the Norse?


The Leif Erikson Day is celebrated:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Erikson_Day
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:49 am

N583JB wrote:
History is a matter of perspective. I believe it is unfair to judge historical figures based on current-day moral standards. Native American tribes were at war with each other far before the arrival of Europeans. Conquest was the name of the game back then. Columbus may have been brutal, but that was the norm in that time.


Yes. This deserves to be repeated.

What happens in history always has to be considered along with the prevailing culture of the time.

And the prevailing culture at the time was one of warmongering, territorial appropriation and preying on and abusing lesser developed groups. Like it or not, it still resulted in the colonization of the Americas into the continent that it is today. For better or for worse? We'll never know...

There are the facts, that we can learn from, and then there is the emotional value that we give to certain historical events and individuals, which varies according to our own evolving cultures.
Those we call heroes or villains are only so through the filter of our own current values which vary with time or cultural heritage.

At the end of the day, everything is nuanced. Heroes become zeros and vice versa. No one was completely evil, no one was completely good. History is only facts, and the interpretation we make of them is ours and ours only.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:58 am

Francoflier wrote:
Heroes become zeros and vice versa. No one was completely evil, no one was completely good. History is only facts, and the interpretation we make of them is ours and ours only.


...er - Hitler.

Other than that I must agree.

Among us (humans) there are always past, present ..a certain number of the species capable of the most inhumane, despicable, ruthless acts upon other humans. Those minds are closely aligned to maintaining our worst instincts exactly as nature providing the killer instincts of all predatory animals.

...and they have their supporters, like morons working overtime to convince everyone else 'Hitler' was misunderstood.

There are ALL or pure evil humans.


BN747
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seahawk
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:35 am

The discovery of America was a scientific breakthrough and that honour will belong to him. And like every scientific breakthrough it did good and it did bad. This is like saying Robert Boyle is responsible for the Atomic Bomb.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:35 am

And we have the same bullshit surrounding Captain James Cook's first visit to NZ, many maori people consider him a butcher and terrorist. It's the 250th anniversary of Cook's first voyage to NZ this year.
Last edited by Kiwirob on Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:36 am

BN747 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Heroes become zeros and vice versa. No one was completely evil, no one was completely good. History is only facts, and the interpretation we make of them is ours and ours only.


...er - Hitler.


Even Hitler wasn't pure evil. Lot's of social programs were initiated during his reign in the 1930's. Infrastructure was updated, he gave the Germans a new sense of belonging and nationalism, he gave us the Volkswagen (people's car) Beetle. Besides that, he was an animal lover, his pets and he was a vegetarian.
Does any of this offset the killing of 6million jews and a few million gypsies and other groups, the killing of "undisierables", being racist to the core, starting WWII? Of course not, that would be ridiculous.
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:38 am

BN747 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
How much does it bother you to hear/read [i]what you been told was all bunk[/i].

BN747


It doesn't at all. This is your perspective and your spin. It lives in your head and that is where it should stay.

Carry on.


Exhibit A.

I never said it bothers me..all I see is, I asked a simple questions...and Exhibit A goes off the deep end in attempting a simple answer....speaks volumes.


You didn't ask a simple question, you asked a leading question designed to provoke a reaction. Own up to this when that reaction does come.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:41 am

seahawk wrote:
The discovery of America was a scientific breakthrough and that honour will belong to him. And like every scientific breakthrough it did good and it did bad. This is like saying Robert Boyle is responsible for the Atomic Bomb.


He didn't discover America, exhibit A: he was met by people living there :lol Others were there before, even Europeans as others have pointed out.

Actually, Columbus made a prediction and he was wrong. He thought he was in India, hence they called the natives Indians. He searched for a quicker route to the east, and rediscovered a continent for Europeans.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:43 am

N583JB wrote:
History is a matter of perspective. I believe it is unfair to judge historical figures based on current-day moral standards.


:checkmark: judging them by the standards of the day is fair game, but not by current standards, I full-heartedly agree.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:52 am

It was still a scientific breakthrough, as he proofed the theory that you can sail west from Europe and arrive in India as wrong. You can only blame him, if you can show that a different person making the same discovery would have made a difference, which I doubt as imho it does not matter who makes the discovery, European nations would still be more advanced in technology and would still venture to capture the treasures of the new world.
 
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:33 am

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:


Then of course when the racists





See? You only start threads here for one reason. We all see it and everyone knows it. My football thread was started to have a discussion. You started this thread for the same reason you start all your threads to make the white people the villian for any minority. It's old and played out. It's what is keeping this country divided and for our government to ever work again we have to stop the trolling.


Or it could be s/he is showing a different point of view. Not just the white washed far right wing Christian male point of view. Why so offended by showing who Columbus was? That he was greedy and blood thirsty? What is wrong with showing the other part of history?


If that were true then the OP wouldn't have used such an extremely biased position. He would have presented both sides of he wanted a real discussion. This is nothing but flamebait.
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:12 am

Dutchy wrote:
N583JB wrote:
History is a matter of perspective. I believe it is unfair to judge historical figures based on current-day moral standards.


:checkmark: judging them by the standards of the day is fair game, but not by current standards, I full-heartedly agree.


The problem with that method of 'measure of what was fair' is that it lacks any nuance. It is made with the 'that was the way it was' mentality.

Not so fast...

That position could hold water if everyone of the era revisited 'felt' that this was normal.
They did not.
Many opposed the cruelties of the day and could do absolutely nothing to stop it beyond damage or vandalize a king or lords property in protest.
But voiced opposition was present in nearly acts of state sanctioned acts of inhumanity...in other words, because 'it was the way it was'...was not accepted by everyone
of the era.

And these 'historical revisits' go directly back in time to redress those who approved of the wrong doing (and also whitewashed that history)...in effect modern societies are going back and examining the pangs of those who suffered and those who witnessed it and calling out those who were practitioners of heinous acts. Much like when 20, 30, 40 year old cold cases are revived and the perpetrator is discovered and arrested or the family name shamed for a member than ran afoul and got away with it. Like Columbus.


Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
Heroes become zeros and vice versa. No one was completely evil, no one was completely good. History is only facts, and the interpretation we make of them is ours and ours only.


...er - Hitler.


Even Hitler wasn't pure evil.


If Hitler, Pol Pot, Edi Amin, Stalin and Mao are not the perfect examples of 'pure evil'..then provide the explanation (what is) and identify who is.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:43 am

BN747 wrote:
If Hitler, Pol Pot, Edi Amin, Stalin and Mao are not the perfect examples of 'pure evil'..then provide the explanation (what is) and identify who is.

BN747


Seriously, want to go into that debate? It is a pointless discussion.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:52 am

Dieuwer wrote:

History should be about FACTS and what we can LEARN from them to better ourselves.
No nothing "(re-)interpretation" or "re-writing".


No. History is a commodity. It's a product that suits a need. Every politician calls upon history to justify his decisions. Historical science is something else. Do you remember any political speech that calls upon the Cromagnon identity? Or how valiantly the country was defended against the Sea Peoples?

It was a very interesting time in the 1990ies, as Switzerland was criticized for handling the bank accounts that belonged to Jews, for tightly cooperating with the German industry, for suggesting the "J" stamp to mark Jewish passports. The generation that served in the military from 1939 to 1945 really HATED these discussions, with a real, visceral hate. They have always been told that Switzerland was honest, clean, and had the best intentions...

TSS wrote:
The Norse didn't document their explorations in the Americas nearly as well as Columbus did his. Until relatively recently when archeological finds proved they were true, Norse stories of exploring what turned out to be the Americas were considered fables.


That's the problem. What hasn't been documented just didn't happen. Except when researcher stumble on artefacts...

The abuse of history could be regarded as its main use. History does not care about facts, it's a STORY. It's retold and reinvented. For a certain public. What was the reason the US fought a war in Vietnam?

So politicians focused on a message, justified it with history - that more and more countries will fall to communism if we don't fight. But they neatly ignored the real history: That France tried to keep its colony. France (and later, the US) bribed the government to play nice, ignoring the societal rift in Indochina. People begin to protest, and then ask for assistance - and only the communists were in the area and willing to support them.

It's also a fabrication that the US wants to export freedom and democracy. Tens of thousands of dead in South America tell a different story. But yet the story of the kind, freedom-loving America gets woven into the U.S. history, repeated, repeated, repeated, until it's taken for the real history.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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DL717
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:03 pm

BN747 wrote:
First American Terrorist: Columbus
http://www.americanindiansource.com/columbus.html

Columbus was a mass killer and the father of the slave trade
https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/hist ... lave-trade

A revisit from History can be a bitch....the correction of taught and learned 'History' has been subject to retooling just as everything involving human events.

Once proud relatives of such former heroes, are now going underground and dodging the spotlight as the reality of the day overtakes folklore and fables/

How much does it bother you to hear/read what you been told was all bunk.

How to be angry with? Past authors? Writers of the era (for not recording the truth -some clearly did because of the historical revisits) or our teachers/professors who taught us. Or ourselves for buying lock stock and barrell without question...because we didn't know who to 'question'.

BN747


Feel free to carry the guilt for the rest of us who couldn’t care less. Everyone migrated out of Africa and a whole lot of people were killed along the way to support that. I’m sure there are people who think we should feel guilt over that too.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
Armadillo1
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:28 pm

those 4mln really exists in that times?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... on_in_1500
 
extender
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:34 pm

DL717 wrote:
Feel free to carry the guilt for the rest of us who couldn’t care less. Everyone migrated out of Africa and a whole lot of people were killed along the way to support that. I’m sure there are people who think we should feel guilt over that too.


Bingo. OP sees a racist behind every leaf. If it isn't racist, the police are pigs, hence Columbus had to be a racist terrorist. Does that include Vasco de Gama? Let's face it, the Portuguese went on to colonize places all over the globe. The Brits had to be racists, they were white, and the Sun didn't set on the Union Jack. Keep bringing up old history as a crutch to fuel anger and hate.
 
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cranberrysaus
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:16 pm

Sad to see he's fallen so far after directing the Harry Potter movies.
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:02 pm

extender wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Feel free to carry the guilt for the rest of us who couldn’t care less. Everyone migrated out of Africa and a whole lot of people were killed along the way to support that. I’m sure there are people who think we should feel guilt over that too.


Bingo. OP sees a racist behind every leaf. If it isn't racist, the police are pigs, hence Columbus had to be a racist terrorist. Does that include Vasco de Gama? Let's face it, the Portuguese went on to colonize places all over the globe. The Brits had to be racists, they were white, and the Sun didn't set on the Union Jack. Keep bringing up old history as a crutch to fuel anger and hate.


You two - Birds of a Feather...nothing more.

Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:
If Hitler, Pol Pot, Edi Amin, Stalin and Mao are not the perfect examples of 'pure evil'..then provide the explanation (what is) and identify who is.

BN747


Seriously, want to go into that debate? It is a pointless discussion.



No debate necessary, just simply explain why in your opinion none of those figures, responsible for millions of lives are NOT prime examples of Pure evil.

Harry Potter fairy tale standards of evil are not realistic and do not apply, so in human terms, state your case why pure evil does not exist.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:04 pm

BN747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:
If Hitler, Pol Pot, Edi Amin, Stalin and Mao are not the perfect examples of 'pure evil'..then provide the explanation (what is) and identify who is.

BN747


Seriously, want to go into that debate? It is a pointless discussion.



No debate necessary, just simply explain why in your opinion none of those figures, responsible for millions of lives are NOT prime examples of Pure evil.

Harry Potter fairy tale standards of evil are not realistic and do not apply, so in human terms, state your case why pure evil does not exist.


BN747


Explain to me what "pure evil" is.....
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Seriously, want to go into that debate? It is a pointless discussion.



No debate necessary, just simply explain why in your opinion none of those figures, responsible for millions of lives are NOT prime examples of Pure evil.

Harry Potter fairy tale standards of evil are not realistic and do not apply, so in human terms, state your case why pure evil does not exist.


BN747


Explain to me what "pure evil" is.....


No, you define it since you've absolved the aforementioned of being so. I say they are....you say they are NOT.
Actually, I did already.. providing a stellar line up of examples that you say 'are not'....


Dutchy?....you there?

BN747
Last edited by BN747 on Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:27 pm

In order to solve the conundrum, how about the federal government move Columbus Day to Election Day every two years (when federal elections are held), and on the off years, celebrate Indigenous Peoples' Day. Then no more dispute over a historical figure who likely only did the inevitable. If not Columbus, then who else would have arrived in the Americas on behalf of a European power? And would that next person have been more or less humane than Columbus and Co?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:29 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
In order to solve the conundrum, how about the federal government move Columbus Day to Election Day every two years (when federal elections are held), and on the off years, celebrate Indigenous Peoples' Day. Then no more dispute over a historical figure who likely only did the inevitable. If not Columbus, then who else would have arrived in the Americas on behalf of a European power? And would that next person have been more or less humane than Columbus and Co?


This is exactly where this is headed in the near future ...or some form of it.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Seriously, want to go into that debate? It is a pointless discussion.



No debate necessary, just simply explain why in your opinion none of those figures, responsible for millions of lives are NOT prime examples of Pure evil.

Harry Potter fairy tale standards of evil are not realistic and do not apply, so in human terms, state your case why pure evil does not exist.


BN747


Explain to me what "pure evil" is.....


Since my examples of Pure Evil does not meet your standard..

..let's try this.

The responsible person/party of mass scale killings of human beings of which commensurable punishment does not exist in reality nor in thought.

How's that?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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F737NG
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:09 pm

BN747 wrote:
Are you at least of age with that childlike view of where social interaction has led us?

People were always malcontents in social situations were they can/could air them.

Social Media simply gives everyone the means to chime in on EVERYTHING in any way they see fit - when not banned. And even then you have plenty of option to pursue.

Social Media's shield of anonymity allows anyone to act out, challenge, be rude and viciously contention as they want...and act in ways MOST would dare not in person.
..and they weakest people do that the most, because in person they cannot.

In person, bad behavior is socially unacceptable, but it does happen.

but 'reality behavior' vs 'social media behavior' are mutually exclusive and it is up to us all on how we balance that in both spheres.

YOU:No wonder people can't engage in discourse with each other civilly any more.



Maybe not for you, but not for most people. Those who choose not to engage social media will be the losers because Social Media is the norm now and it is not leaving. It will only expand and alter it's platforms and mediums.

The civility is there, but make no mistake...if you or anyone brings unabated ignorance into many social circles - it will be called out and attacked just the atypical unprovoked attacks.

It's the road rules on social media freeways.

BN747



Congratulations on proving my point.

Name-calling? Check.
Willingness to disregard any evidence contrary to your opinion? Check.

At best you appear to be ignorant, at worst you appear to be a troll.


No need to reply.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:25 pm

BN747 wrote:
..let's try this.

The responsible person/party of mass scale killings of human beings of which commensurable punishment does not exist in reality nor in thought.

How's that?

If that is the definition then it cannot apply to a single person in general. I guess some serial killers could have it applied to them, psychotic minds have no brakes on doing whatever they wish. But for the mass killing scale you are going after it can't be done by a single person, it is done by a group of people who lead and reinforce each others worst and then lead and force others to follow. The mass killings of Pol Pot and Hitler etc. required the involvement of thousands of people willing to follow.

The Nazi's could fit your definition. So could the North Korean regime. But drug cartels and the organized sex trade fit it better.

Without those followers mass killings can't happen. What about Rwanda? That was an equally evil and horrible situation and it was because of groups of people.

"Pure evil" is like the "true Scotsman" etc. it is a phrase we attach but does not mean it is real/possible.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 3:57 pm

F737NG wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Are you at least of age with that childlike view of where social interaction has led us?

People were always malcontents in social situations were they can/could air them.

Social Media simply gives everyone the means to chime in on EVERYTHING in any way they see fit - when not banned. And even then you have plenty of option to pursue.

Social Media's shield of anonymity allows anyone to act out, challenge, be rude and viciously contention as they want...and act in ways MOST would dare not in person.
..and they weakest people do that the most, because in person they cannot.

In person, bad behavior is socially unacceptable, but it does happen.

but 'reality behavior' vs 'social media behavior' are mutually exclusive and it is up to us all on how we balance that in both spheres.

YOU:No wonder people can't engage in discourse with each other civilly any more.



Maybe not for you, but not for most people. Those who choose not to engage social media will be the losers because Social Media is the norm now and it is not leaving. It will only expand and alter it's platforms and mediums.

The civility is there, but make no mistake...if you or anyone brings unabated ignorance into many social circles - it will be called out and attacked just the atypical unprovoked attacks.

It's the road rules on social media freeways.

BN747



Congratulations on proving my point.

Name-calling? Check.
Willingness to disregard any evidence contrary to your opinion? Check.

At best you appear to be ignorant, at worst you appear to be a troll.


No need to reply.



Name calling??? What by pointing out your child-like answer? Sorry, but that's exactly what how it appears.

What 'evidence' do you speak of?

You're angry for some reason and are in no position to call anyone ignorant with such a puerile anemic response.

Tugger wrote:
BN747 wrote:
..let's try this.

The responsible person/party of mass scale killings of human beings of which commensurable punishment does not exist in reality nor in thought.

How's that?

If that is the definition then it cannot apply to a single person in general. I guess some serial killers could have it applied to them, psychotic minds have no brakes on doing whatever they wish. But for the mass killing scale you are going after it can't be done by a single person, it is done by a group of people who lead and reinforce each others worst and then lead and force others to follow. The mass killings of Pol Pot and Hitler etc. required the involvement of thousands of people willing to follow.

The Nazi's could fit your definition. So could the North Korean regime. But drug cartels and the organized sex trade fit it better.

Without those followers mass killings can't happen. What about Rwanda? That was an equally evil and horrible situation and it was because of groups of people.


Tugg


The Followers are indeed as guilty as the leader directing them, no question.

Of course serial killers, mass shooters apply as well...

What is the punishment for a psycho that kills four people 'one by one' or the mall shooter?

You can't kill them Four times!

Therefore no just punishment exist.

There is no 'evil' category beyond that. If so state what exactly that is...you cannot,

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson

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