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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 4:32 pm

BN747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:


No debate necessary, just simply explain why in your opinion none of those figures, responsible for millions of lives are NOT prime examples of Pure evil.

Harry Potter fairy tale standards of evil are not realistic and do not apply, so in human terms, state your case why pure evil does not exist.


BN747


Explain to me what "pure evil" is.....


Since my examples of Pure Evil does not meet your standard..

..let's try this.

The responsible person/party of mass scale killings of human beings of which commensurable punishment does not exist in reality nor in thought.

How's that?

BN747


BN747, you made me think about my reaction and especially why I felt the need to react to your "Pure Evil" statement. In the end it conflicts with my world view. You might say the act that someone did is pure evil, not the person itself. Calling someone pure evil is dehumanizing them and I don't want that.
I never want to dehumanizing anyone, I want to speak of people's deeds and if I do not like that, I want to call them out on it, but not calling someone as a person something in absolute thing, without absolutely know them.

Dehumanizing is dangerous: cockroaches in Rwanda, a tsunami of refugees, or what the Brexiteers called the refugees in the Brexit campaign, or in many more examples in history. So that's why I do not subscribe to the term of "pure evil" for a person. Hope you understand my train of thought and where I come from with this. I have no interest to defend those murderers.
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BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Explain to me what "pure evil" is.....


Since my examples of Pure Evil does not meet your standard..

..let's try this.

The responsible person/party of mass scale killings of human beings of which commensurable punishment does not exist in reality nor in thought.

How's that?

BN747


BN747, you made me think about my reaction and especially why I felt the need to react to your "Pure Evil" statement. In the end it conflicts with my world view. You might say the act that someone did is pure evil, not the person itself. Calling someone pure evil is dehumanizing them and I don't want that.
I never want to dehumanizing anyone, I want to speak of people's deeds and if I do not like that, I want to call them out on it, but not calling someone as a person something in absolute thing, without absolutely know them. .


Okay, well that's you personally...that's it.

That is your belief and value (of human life) standard....but that's just you and anyone who feels/thinks the same way.
Which is fine, we all entitled to our own interpretations, however, should it fall into a pool of despicable conduct (as judged by society)...then it probably is best you not share it with another person likea murderer, a child molester, a female abuser, thief, a racist, a rapist, etc....

Global societies as a whole detest cold blooded murder/killing->Syria.

Meaning that is the greatest crime one can inflict upon another (or others) and those participating are 'legally' co-conspirators aka equally as guilty.


Dutchy wrote:
Dehumanizing is dangerous: cockroaches in Rwanda, a tsunami of refugees, or what the Brexiteers called the refugees in the Brexit campaign, or in many more examples in history. So that's why I do not subscribe to the term of "pure evil" for a person. Hope you understand my train of thought and where I come from with this. I have no interest to defend those murderers.


I understand you perfectly.

But we view those who would do others harm (taking their life - everything they have/own) away from them.

That is our divide.

To be clear, I am speaking of cold blooded killers , not a father avenging his wife's rape or an aggrieved party.
Cold blooded planned taking of life.
I see those who are willing to do that as the most flawed examples of our species.
And samples exist in every inhabited corner of this Earth.
And in my opinion, every single one of them are detractors of the greater human good....not contributors or supporters of the greater human good.

When you choose to cause, contribute and/or distribute harm into society for whatever reason..they have dehumanized themselves.
They have demonstrated that they, of their own volition, will take you, everything you love and or care for ..from this planet...and not stop with just you.

That strain of our species offers society nothing beneficial or of use to society. Therefore they deserve dehumanization, if you dehumanize (steal their humanity/life) then in turn you deserve to be dehumanized.

That type of human has selected to separate him/herself from society at the risk to others....that type is not worth any consideration other than how quick to rid of him/her.

I hope you understand my interpretation.

BN747
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:24 pm

BN747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:

Since my examples of Pure Evil does not meet your standard..

..let's try this.

The responsible person/party of mass scale killings of human beings of which commensurable punishment does not exist in reality nor in thought.

How's that?

BN747


BN747, you made me think about my reaction and especially why I felt the need to react to your "Pure Evil" statement. In the end it conflicts with my world view. You might say the act that someone did is pure evil, not the person itself. Calling someone pure evil is dehumanizing them and I don't want that.
I never want to dehumanizing anyone, I want to speak of people's deeds and if I do not like that, I want to call them out on it, but not calling someone as a person something in absolute thing, without absolutely know them. .


Okay, well that's you personally...that's it.

That is your belief and value (of human life) standard....but that's just you and anyone who feels/thinks the same way.
Which is fine, we all entitled to our own interpretations, however, should it fall into a pool of despicable conduct (as judged by society)...then it probably is best you not share it with another person likea murderer, a child molester, a female abuser, thief, a racist, a rapist, etc....

Global societies as a whole detest cold blooded murder/killing->Syria.

Meaning that is greatest crime one can inflict upon another (or others) and those participating are 'legally' co-conspirators aka equally as guilty.


Dutchy wrote:
Dehumanizing is dangerous: cockroaches in Rwanda, a tsunami of refugees, or what the Brexiteers called the refugees in the Brexit campaign, or in many more examples in history. So that's why I do not subscribe to the term of "pure evil" for a person. Hope you understand my train of thought and where I come from with this. I have no interest to defend those murderers.


I understand you perfectly.

But we view those who would do others harm (taking their life - everything they have/own) away from them.

That is our divide.

To be clear, I am speaking of cold blooded killers , not a father avenging his wife's rape or an aggrieved party.
Cold blooded planned taking of life.
I see those who are willing to do that as the most flawed examples of our species.
And samples exist in every inhabited corner of this Earth.
And in my opinion, every single one of them are detractors of the greater human good....not contributors or supporters of the greater human good.

When you choose to cause, contribute and/or distribute harm into society for whatever reason..they have made them dehumanized. They have demonstrated that they will take you, everything you love and or care for from this planet...and not stop with just you.

That strain of our species offers society nothing beneficial or of use to society. Therefore they deserve dehumanization, if you dehumanize (steal their humanity/life) then in turn you deserve to be dehumanized.

I hope you understand my interpretation.

BN747


I understand where you are coming from, but I do not subscribe to that point of view. Fundamentally I do not believe you can lose your humanity as such, you are still human. I do not believe labeling people in any case, also not in the most extreme cases, like "pure evil" with these people with their despicable deeds and ideas. never label people, never.
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seb146
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:29 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

See? You only start threads here for one reason. We all see it and everyone knows it. My football thread was started to have a discussion. You started this thread for the same reason you start all your threads to make the white people the villian for any minority. It's old and played out. It's what is keeping this country divided and for our government to ever work again we have to stop the trolling.


Or it could be s/he is showing a different point of view. Not just the white washed far right wing Christian male point of view. Why so offended by showing who Columbus was? That he was greedy and blood thirsty? What is wrong with showing the other part of history?


If that were true then the OP wouldn't have used such an extremely biased position. He would have presented both sides of he wanted a real discussion. This is nothing but flamebait.


We all grew up hearing the white washed European side of Columbus. For years we were told that Columbus discovered America and discovered the world is round. Both are incorrect. We also were taught that Columbus was a gentle man who worked with the native people. We have been recently been finding out that he slaughtered and raped them.

We knew about the European side of Columbus. It is about time we heard about the Carribean side of Columbus.

EDIT:

Growing up in Oregon, it took years before I learned of Russian expeditions along the Pacific Coast. Not much is told of the interactions between Russian explorers and natives. Growing up next to a native reservation, I learned of the battles between whites and natives and how brutal both sides were. One side trying to save their land, the other trying to make as much money as possible. The victor writes the history but the losing side will have their story told as well.
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I understand where you are coming from, but I do not subscribe to that point of view. Fundamentally I do not believe you can lose your humanity as such, you are still human. I do not believe labeling people in any case, also not in the most extreme cases, like "pure evil" with these people with their despicable deeds and ideas. never label people, never.


I know what you mean, but there is no way around it.

It is a necessity.

Start with you, Dutchy.

You selected that name for a reason, perhaps the most obvious reason..but then again maybe not.
But you did so in order to distinguish you from other members, as a unique user. It all lines up as a detailed modifier employed to identify from one another.

This is the perfect example of why 'Thank you for your service' comments strewn upon every identified soldier/veteran.

That very soldier could have raped and killed two Iraqi sister just 6 months earlier and here you (not you specifically) are 'showing them with praise'.

I'm sorry, but you have not made a strong case of not to identify the bad players among us and distinguish them by name.
You have made a great case about your feelings...but not so much of a case that persuades a rational mind.

BN747
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:45 pm

BN747 wrote:
I know what you mean, but there is no way around it.


But do you? BN747, everything you say here shows you do not conceptially grasp what I am getting at, at all. Distingish between the person and it's deeds.

It's ok, I'll leave it at this, because it only brushes on the subject you brought up.
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NIKV69
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:43 pm

BN747 wrote:

Well any issue with a racial element attached is going to trigger Racist everywhere. Just as you always do. You people can't help yourselves.



It didn't have a racial element until you injected it. You saw the calendar and said lets attack Columbus and call him a terrorist. So when people took issue you can falsely call them racist. It's your calling card and it's you that can't help yourself.

BN747 wrote:

You have no idea why I started this thread.



Yes we all do. See above.


BN747 wrote:


I myself use to call Thanksgiving 'Thanks to Killing the Natives Day'....


Of course you did.

F737NG wrote:


Congratulations on proving my point.

Name-calling? Check.
Willingness to disregard any evidence contrary to your opinion? Check.

At best you appear to be ignorant, at worst you appear to be a troll.


No need to reply.


He isn't ignorant, :smile:

Dutchy wrote:


You didn't ask a simple question, you asked a leading question designed to provoke a reaction. Own up to this when that reaction does come.


:checkmark:
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:32 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Dehumanizing is dangerous: cockroaches in Rwanda, a tsunami of refugees, or what the Brexiteers called the refugees in the Brexit campaign, or in many more examples in history. So that's why I do not subscribe to the term of "pure evil" for a person. Hope you understand my train of thought and where I come from with this. I have no interest to defend those murderers.


Quite very, yes. It is of grave concern now, as an example, here in America these days too. We have a loud, shrieking minority that will not stop with trying normalize this behavior. And when the historical recklessness of this is pointed out to them, their reaction is one of un-ironic astonishment. It is almost as though they do not understand that they are the problem. . .

It especially frustrating as they have no concept of how easy it is for them to take the rest of us to grief this way. . .



BN747 wrote:
To be clear, I am speaking of cold blooded killers , not a father avenging his wife's rape or an aggrieved party.
Cold blooded planned taking of life.
...
BN747


People can be both of those things.



NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:

Well any issue with a racial element attached is going to trigger Racist everywhere. Just as you always do. You people can't help yourselves.


... So when people took issue you can falsely call them racist. It's your calling card and it's you that can't help yourself.



He did not call anyone here a racist. If you were not one, there would have been no call to get defensive about it. This is very simple.

I do not know why you refuse to own something so obvious.

Tugger wrote:
BN747 wrote:
... I guess some serial killers could have it applied to them, psychotic minds have no brakes on doing whatever they wish. But for the mass killing scale you are going after it can't be done by a single person, it is done by a group of people who lead and reinforce each others worst and then lead and force others to follow. The mass killings of Pol Pot and Hitler etc. required the involvement of thousands of people willing to follow.

The Nazi's could fit your definition. So could the North Korean regime. But drug cartels and the organized sex trade fit it better.

Without those followers mass killings can't happen. What about Rwanda? That was an equally evil and horrible situation and it was because of groups of people.

"Pure evil" is like the "true Scotsman" etc. it is a phrase we attach but does not mean it is real/possible.

Tugg


Indeed. And often as not, Enthusiastic Enablers more so than mere Followers.

Particularly with something like your cartel/sex trafficker example. As it pertains to this matter, I would actually liken Columbus more to this than say, a genocidal maniac. As with the former, his (and the Spanish Royalty involved) motives are primarily rooted in avarice. For this, the parties involved do need the ability to specifically ignore whatever ethical and legal standards are in place to otherwise prohibit these things from occurring. . .

One question I would have for you here. . . Where on this scale of group participation would something like a Cult fall? There is a leadership/partnership relationship present there. But I would not say that is not the most traditional layout WRT evil vs not-evil are concerned.
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:37 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:

Well any issue with a racial element attached is going to trigger Racist everywhere. Just as you always do. You people can't help yourselves.



It didn't have a racial element until you injected it. You saw the calendar and said lets attack Columbus and call him a terrorist. So when people took issue you can falsely call them racist. It's your calling card and it's you that can't help yourself.


Ummm, that credit to Columbus himself because it was he who dehumanized everyone not like himself for profit and blood thirst...a fact that gets a blind eye from you.

It is racist by it's very action.

BN747
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NIKV69
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:39 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

He did not call anyone here a racist. If you were not one, there would have been no call to get defensive about it. This is very simple.

I do not know why you refuse to own something so obvious.



You should read his posts. He calls me a racist every chance he gets. So now you call me one as well. Keep feeding the troll. :stirthepot:
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:47 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:
I know what you mean, but there is no way around it.


But do you? BN747, everything you say here shows you do not conceptially grasp what I am getting at, at all. Distingish between the person and it's deeds.

It's ok, I'll leave it at this, because it only brushes on the subject you brought up.


Not at all, your concept is pretty simple and stated by you. 'You don't like labeling people'..that is what you said. But you do participate/accept the labeling of people when it is useful for you and the scenarios is innocuous.

But when the labeling turns to the negative, you start drawing the line.

So tell me where you stop...

Have you ever used the term 'bully' (or Dutch equivalent)?
Dishonest?
Thief?
Liar?
Cheat?
..tell me when to stop...
Rapist?
Criminal?
Murderer?

...if you have, then you do accept use of labels to identify certain humans. You've decided to just not to pass judgement on them.

BN747
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BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:49 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:

He did not call anyone here a racist. If you were not one, there would have been no call to get defensive about it. This is very simple.

I do not know why you refuse to own something so obvious.



You should read his posts. He calls me a racist every chance he gets. So now you call me one as well. Keep feeding the troll. :stirthepot:


You continue to unmask yourself...as I said, you can't help who you are when you speak your feelings.

BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:49 pm

I know the discussion has digressed somewhat...

...but about history being about facts:

Remember the controversy about Confederate statues? Most of them were erected in the 1910s. They do not bear witness to the Civil War. They do not document anything. They tell their own story. But yet the removal of Robert E. Lee statues was staunchly opposed, on the grounds that their removal would somehow "destroy" history.
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:51 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
I know the discussion has digressed somewhat...

...but about history being about facts:

Remember the controversy about Confederate statues? Most of them were erected in the 1910s. They do not bear witness to the Civil War. They do not document anything. They tell their own story. But yet the removal of Robert E. Lee statues was staunchly opposed, on the grounds that their removal would somehow "destroy" history.


I'd be all for the statues to remain in place...just add the modifier 'Traitor to the United States' to each one of them and let them stand.
Then the story the plaque reads is complete.

BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:38 pm

seb146 wrote:
We all grew up hearing the white washed European side of Columbus.
Excuse me? Are you telling us that right up until the late 20th century, American schools relied on European textbooks written by European authors giving a European slant? Really?
We also were taught that Columbus was a gentle man who worked with the native people.
Clearly you & I didn't go to the same school, so forgive me if I have no recollection of such detail.
We knew about the European side of Columbus. It is about time we heard about the Carribean side of Columbus.
I'm sure you have a valid point to make here, but it's getting kinda lost in the mist somehow.

Perhaps instead of describing the classical view of Columbus as the "European side", you should refer to it as the "traditionally accepted" story of Columbus.
I agree this was originally written for the most part by Europeans, but since 1776 American authors & academics, supported by a home-grown printing & publishing industry, must have been in a position to change all that if they wanted to.
So why was it only late in the 20th century that we arrive at a more balanced truth? Were the evil Europeans somehow censoring American academics in order to preserve the illusion? Doesn't really seem likely. :shakehead:
AFAIK for centuries pretty much everybody on both sides of the Atlantic bought into the original Columbus narrative,

And then in 1980 along came Howard Zinn with A People's History of the United States, featuring exposés of not just Columbus, but also Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, and others

Favorable reviews included comments such as "Mr Zinn [is] peeling back the rosy veneer of much of American history to reveal sordid realities that had remained hidden for too long."

Critics also noted "[Zinn's] People's History did not spring out of thin air but was an effort to synthesize a widely shared shift in historical sensibilities",
perhaps brought about by " the social movements of the 1960s and 1970s transforming the writing and teaching of history"
Others critics were less generous.

History hasn't necessarily treated Mr Zinn very kindly. Which is kinda ironic.....
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
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seb146
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:00 am

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We all grew up hearing the white washed European side of Columbus.
Excuse me? Are you telling us that right up until the late 20th century, American schools relied on European textbooks written by European authors giving a European slant? Really?


When I was in school, not much was done to edit or enhance what Columbus did. History classes I took brushed on the more famous explorers of America, including Columbus. History classes I took generally started in the 1700s. It was not until college we discussed atrocities. Even still, there is a silent resentment toward people who want to change Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day.

I think a lot of what we are taught also depends on where we went to school and private vs. public and also the era.
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:42 am

seb146 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We all grew up hearing the white washed European side of Columbus.
Excuse me? Are you telling us that right up until the late 20th century, American schools relied on European textbooks written by European authors giving a European slant? Really?


When I was in school, not much was done to edit or enhance what Columbus did. History classes I took brushed on the more famous explorers of America, including Columbus. History classes I took generally started in the 1700s. It was not until college we discussed atrocities. Even still, there is a silent resentment toward people who want to change Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day.

I think a lot of what we are taught also depends on where we went to school and private vs. public and also the era.


Same here, the standard whitewash BS sans any atrocities in schools in the North and the South and on military installations.

BN747
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NIKV69
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:01 am

BN747 wrote:


You continue to unmask yourself...as I said, you can't help who you are when you speak your feelings.

BN747


So you keep saying, of course with this comes no examples or evidence but never let that get in the way of a good smear. Feel free to post any example at any time buddy or just go run and hide behind more boorish propaganda like you always default to. :wave:
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:05 am

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:


You continue to unmask yourself...as I said, you can't help who you are when you speak your feelings.

BN747


So you keep saying, of course with this comes no examples or evidence but never let that get in the way of a good smear. Feel free to post any example at any time buddy or just go run and hide behind more boorish propaganda like you always default to. :wave:


Just do you boo, just do you...everyone here can read and comprehend.

BN747
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NIKV69
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:12 am

BN747 wrote:

Just do you boo, just do you...everyone here can read and comprehend.

BN747


ROFL yep just like AOC when asked by CNN how she was going to pay for her idiotic idea of the green new deal and of course has no answer or facts "YOU JUST PAY FOR IT" LOL

Keep trolling along little trooper :rotfl:
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:20 am

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:

Just do you boo, just do you...everyone here can read and comprehend.

BN747


ROFL yep just like AOC when asked by CNN how she was going to pay for her idiotic idea of the green new deal and of course has no answer or facts "YOU JUST PAY FOR IT" LOL

Keep trolling along little trooper :rotfl:


Boy, you really are behind the curve...you have no idea how much of a throwback you are...yep, just do you, boo! You're great at 'dating' yourself (aka out of step).

Lemme guess, you don't have much 'game' outside of watching tv...do you?

BN747
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seb146
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:03 am

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:

Just do you boo, just do you...everyone here can read and comprehend.

BN747


ROFL yep just like AOC when asked by CNN how she was going to pay for her idiotic idea of the green new deal and of course has no answer or facts "YOU JUST PAY FOR IT" LOL

Keep trolling along little trooper :rotfl:


As a "liberal elite" who has a college education, I can say that the whole reason I want to stop defending Columbus and this European view of history is that I asked questions. I read. I retained that information. There are multiple sides of history. Not just "In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue..."
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seahawk
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:00 am

seb146 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We all grew up hearing the white washed European side of Columbus.
Excuse me? Are you telling us that right up until the late 20th century, American schools relied on European textbooks written by European authors giving a European slant? Really?


When I was in school, not much was done to edit or enhance what Columbus did. History classes I took brushed on the more famous explorers of America, including Columbus. History classes I took generally started in the 1700s. It was not until college we discussed atrocities. Even still, there is a silent resentment toward people who want to change Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day.

I think a lot of what we are taught also depends on where we went to school and private vs. public and also the era.


Funny thing, here in Europe the atrocities were part of school education already back in the 1970ies and 1980ies. Even in Spain and Portugal they look at both sides of the story.

So your problem mainly lies with your education system. Which is often quite different to the European approach. I always learned what actually happened (the facts), how they were seen at the time and how they can be seen from a modern point of view. Going back to Columbus.

- He was the first to reach America, document it and the first whose knowledge became public knowledge
- He was brutal in contact with the natives and they faced extinction due to illnesses they did not know (but the explorers also had no knowledge of the mechanism)
- his action were acceptable at the time, even supported by governments and the public and celebrated
- from a modern point of view the discovery of America led to genocide and destruction of many cultures
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:15 am

The 15th century was a violent place, involving war, invaders, conquest and colonisation where people were actually killed? Who'd have believed it. I'm shocked.
 
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seb146
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:38 am

seahawk wrote:
seb146 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Excuse me? Are you telling us that right up until the late 20th century, American schools relied on European textbooks written by European authors giving a European slant? Really?


When I was in school, not much was done to edit or enhance what Columbus did. History classes I took brushed on the more famous explorers of America, including Columbus. History classes I took generally started in the 1700s. It was not until college we discussed atrocities. Even still, there is a silent resentment toward people who want to change Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day.

I think a lot of what we are taught also depends on where we went to school and private vs. public and also the era.


Funny thing, here in Europe the atrocities were part of school education already back in the 1970ies and 1980ies. Even in Spain and Portugal they look at both sides of the story.

So your problem mainly lies with your education system. Which is often quite different to the European approach. I always learned what actually happened (the facts), how they were seen at the time and how they can be seen from a modern point of view. Going back to Columbus.

- He was the first to reach America, document it and the first whose knowledge became public knowledge
- He was brutal in contact with the natives and they faced extinction due to illnesses they did not know (but the explorers also had no knowledge of the mechanism)
- his action were acceptable at the time, even supported by governments and the public and celebrated
- from a modern point of view the discovery of America led to genocide and destruction of many cultures


Columbus did not kill natives only because of European diseases. From what we have been told, Columbus killed natives by the sword. He also never set foot in the United States, for which he was celebrated. Other Europeans explored and interacted with natives in North America around the same time or earlier. Erik The Red, Leif Ericsson, Vespucci, Cabeza de Vaca, Cabot, de Soto, Verrizzano... Other explorers were fine and happy to let the natives live their lives. Some were not but French and Russian fur trappers and explorers just wanted to get paid by their benefactors.

Of course we need to discuss Western diseases and how they effected North American people. That was one of the main reasons for the slaughter of many early settlers in western United States. The Whitman Mission massacre is an example. We also need to know how some Europeans simply killed those who said no.

I wonder why no records are kept of Canadian tribes being killed by Western diseases when the Norwegians landed in Atlantic Canada? Honest question because I have not deeply researched it yet.
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seahawk
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:12 am

I did not say, that the indigenous people were killed by illness only, we learned that many were killed violently by technologically advanced forces to steal their gold and other valuables and also to make them good Christians.

I also do not understand how you come to believe that other explorers are not getting recognition, in the end America is even named after Amerigo Vespucci as he was the first to actually understand and document that the land mass was a new continent. And even back at the time he was not viewed all positive and the Spanish crown rejected his ideas to pay for the voyages through slave trade, like the Portugese did. But any expedition sent there had to make profit in the end.

The answer to the Canadian tribes is probably equally simple. In the end the most likely option is that nobody kept any records. The Spanish did keep records and they survived into the modern day. And considering the tradition of the Norse to blunder, it is unlikely they were just peaceful traders and explorers.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:
I know what you mean, but there is no way around it.


But do you? BN747, everything you say here shows you do not conceptially grasp what I am getting at, at all. Distingish between the person and it's deeds.

It's ok, I'll leave it at this, because it only brushes on the subject you brought up.


You can't distinguish between the person and their deads, they are intrinsically linked. If you take aways what they have done then who are they??

Then there's Retired Master Chief Special Warfare Operator Britt Slabinski who is basically a brutal thug in a uniform, who should be rotting in gaol but his Navy Cross upgraded to a Medal of Honor by Trump last year.

But Slabinski’s time in the Navy’s top counterterrorism unit also included complaints of excessive force. In a tape recording of an interview for a 2005 book on the battle of Takur Ghar, he described mutilating the dead body of an insurgent by shooting it full of bullets, an action that is prohibited by the Geneva Conventions. Years later, he reportedly ordered members of his SEAL Team 6 squadron to kill any male Afghans in a target area before a raid

“I mean, he was dead, but people have got nerves,” Slabinski can be heard saying on the recording, a portion of which the Intercept posted online. “I shot him about 20 times in the legs, and every time you’d kick him, er, shoot him, he would kick up, you could see his body twitching and all that.”

“It was really good therapy for everybody who was there,” Slabinski added on the recording.


You really think you can distinguish between a person and their deads when the person is a piece of crap like this man?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:34 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
If Columbus was the father of the slave trade, it’d be news to the Romans and Arabs hundreds of years earlier.


Well "but slavery back then was different" is what you get from Christian apologists when asking about the bible endorsing it, maybe that author has just fallen I to the same trap....

Doesn't change that you are of course right....

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:30 am

seb146 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
seb146 wrote:
We all grew up hearing the white washed European side of Columbus.
Excuse me? Are you telling us that right up until the late 20th century, American schools relied on European textbooks written by European authors giving a European slant? Really?


When I was in school, not much was done to edit or enhance what Columbus did. History classes I took brushed on the more famous explorers of America, including Columbus. History classes I took generally started in the 1700s. It was not until college we discussed atrocities. Even still, there is a silent resentment toward people who want to change Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day.

I think a lot of what we are taught also depends on where we went to school and private vs. public and also the era.
Everything you have said there is correct, but for the third time - why do you describe the traditionally accepted story of Columbus as white washed European side?
seb146 wrote:
As a "liberal elite" who has a college education, I can say that the whole reason I want to stop defending Columbus and this European view of history is ...
And again with this "European" phallacy (™) . :banghead:

AFAIK for centuries pretty much everybody on both sides of the Atlantic bought into the original Columbus narrative.

BN747 wrote:
Same here, the standard whitewash BS sans any atrocities in schools in the North and the South and on military installations.
North & South... Korea? :duck:
Still, at least you didn't lay the blame for this white-washed BS on bad & wicked European authors/books/education system.

seahawk wrote:
Funny thing, here in Europe the atrocities were part of school education already back in the 1970ies and 1980ies. Even in Spain and Portugal they look at both sides of the story.
So your problem mainly lies with your {US} education system. Which is often quite different to the European approach
Braybuddy wrote:
The 15th century was a violent place, involving war, invaders, conquest and colonisation where people were actually killed? Who'd have believed it. I'm shocked.
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Redd
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:39 am

BN747 wrote:

Columbus was the father of the slave trade




You might want to go back in time and inform the Babylonians, Egyptians, Romans, Greek, Ottomans, and even the middle-ages Europeans..... lol
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:01 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:
I know what you mean, but there is no way around it.


But do you? BN747, everything you say here shows you do not conceptially grasp what I am getting at, at all. Distingish between the person and it's deeds.

It's ok, I'll leave it at this, because it only brushes on the subject you brought up.


You can't distinguish between the person and their deads, they are intrinsically linked. If you take aways what they have done then who are they??

Then there's Retired Master Chief Special Warfare Operator Britt Slabinski who is basically a brutal thug in a uniform, who should be rotting in gaol but his Navy Cross upgraded to a Medal of Honor by Trump last year.

But Slabinski’s time in the Navy’s top counterterrorism unit also included complaints of excessive force. In a tape recording of an interview for a 2005 book on the battle of Takur Ghar, he described mutilating the dead body of an insurgent by shooting it full of bullets, an action that is prohibited by the Geneva Conventions. Years later, he reportedly ordered members of his SEAL Team 6 squadron to kill any male Afghans in a target area before a raid

“I mean, he was dead, but people have got nerves,” Slabinski can be heard saying on the recording, a portion of which the Intercept posted online. “I shot him about 20 times in the legs, and every time you’d kick him, er, shoot him, he would kick up, you could see his body twitching and all that.”

“It was really good therapy for everybody who was there,” Slabinski added on the recording.


You really think you can distinguish between a person and their deads when the person is a piece of crap like this man?


Yes, you can and more importantly, you need to. Apparently you want to judge people alone by their deads and especially the deads you see in the public.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
extender
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:05 am

Deeds, not deads.
 
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SheikhDjibouti
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:04 pm

extender wrote:
Deeds, not deads.

Meh - it works either way. :duck:
Nothing to see here; move along please.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:55 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

But do you? BN747, everything you say here shows you do not conceptially grasp what I am getting at, at all. Distingish between the person and it's deeds.

It's ok, I'll leave it at this, because it only brushes on the subject you brought up.


You can't distinguish between the person and their deads, they are intrinsically linked. If you take aways what they have done then who are they??

Then there's Retired Master Chief Special Warfare Operator Britt Slabinski who is basically a brutal thug in a uniform, who should be rotting in gaol but his Navy Cross upgraded to a Medal of Honor by Trump last year.

But Slabinski’s time in the Navy’s top counterterrorism unit also included complaints of excessive force. In a tape recording of an interview for a 2005 book on the battle of Takur Ghar, he described mutilating the dead body of an insurgent by shooting it full of bullets, an action that is prohibited by the Geneva Conventions. Years later, he reportedly ordered members of his SEAL Team 6 squadron to kill any male Afghans in a target area before a raid

“I mean, he was dead, but people have got nerves,” Slabinski can be heard saying on the recording, a portion of which the Intercept posted online. “I shot him about 20 times in the legs, and every time you’d kick him, er, shoot him, he would kick up, you could see his body twitching and all that.”

“It was really good therapy for everybody who was there,” Slabinski added on the recording.


You really think you can distinguish between a person and their deads when the person is a piece of crap like this man?


Yes, you can and more importantly, you need to. Apparently you want to judge people alone by their deads and especially the deads you see in the

public.


How else are you supposed to judge a person if not by what they say and do?

So you’re trying to say men like Kanye West, Trump, Pol Pot, Hitler, Idi Amin, and Stalin we’re actually good people, it’s just the deed’s they did that were bad and don’t reflect there true personalities? If that’s what you think you’re naive. Bad people are bad people, that’s how it works.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:05 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

You can't distinguish between the person and their deads, they are intrinsically linked. If you take aways what they have done then who are they??

Then there's Retired Master Chief Special Warfare Operator Britt Slabinski who is basically a brutal thug in a uniform, who should be rotting in gaol but his Navy Cross upgraded to a Medal of Honor by Trump last year.



You really think you can distinguish between a person and their deads when the person is a piece of crap like this man?


Yes, you can and more importantly, you need to. Apparently you want to judge people alone by their deads and especially the deads you see in the

public.


How else are you supposed to judge a person if not by what they say and do?

So you’re trying to say men like Kanye West, Trump, Pol Pot, Hitler, Idi Amin, and Stalin we’re actually good people, it just the dead’s they did that was bad, if that’s what you think you’re nuts. Bad people are bad people, that’s how it works.


That is your opinion.

Every human being is capable of very dark and bad deeds, you are, I am.

Pol Pot, Hitler, Idi Amin and Stalin are responsible for many deaths, inhumane and terrible circumstances in which many people committed terrible deeds. One of the methods they used was dehumanizing their opponents, dehumanizing them makes it easier to kill them: Rob is difficult to kill, a cockroach, why not exterminate them all?

Labeling a person as a whole as bad, is dehumanizing them and that is not something I am prepared to do, under no circumstances because it will lead to terrible things. If you think not taking a very dark road in history ones again, is nuts, then so be it, think what you like. Thinking is free.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:33 pm

You really have lost the plot, Hitler for example was nice to dogs, I also like dogs, but unlike Hitler I had no desire to exterminate people in gas chambers because I don’t like there religion, sexual preference or mental capabilities. Hitler liking animals is nice but everything else he did in his life negated the nice bit, he was an evil sob which the world is better off without, but then again you are Dutch.......
 
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Tugger
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:49 pm

Some people are very bad people and deserve to die. And yes, actions speak loudly as to who a person is. A racist can be a truly wonderful father and loving husband and a good upstanding, giving member of a community. But the fact they then go out and attack, beat and kill people of other races obviates any "good" they do.

People will justly be killed for their actions.

So who gets to kill these people? Well self-defense is the first, after that it gets muddy...

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
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seb146
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:55 pm

SheikhDjibouti wrote:
seb146 wrote:
SheikhDjibouti wrote:
Excuse me? Are you telling us that right up until the late 20th century, American schools relied on European textbooks written by European authors giving a European slant? Really?


When I was in school, not much was done to edit or enhance what Columbus did. History classes I took brushed on the more famous explorers of America, including Columbus. History classes I took generally started in the 1700s. It was not until college we discussed atrocities. Even still, there is a silent resentment toward people who want to change Columbus Day to Indigenous Peoples Day.

I think a lot of what we are taught also depends on where we went to school and private vs. public and also the era.
Everything you have said there is correct, but for the third time - why do you describe the traditionally accepted story of Columbus as white washed European side?
seb146 wrote:
As a "liberal elite" who has a college education, I can say that the whole reason I want to stop defending Columbus and this European view of history is ...
And again with this "European" phallacy (™) . :banghead:

AFAIK for centuries pretty much everybody on both sides of the Atlantic bought into the original Columbus narrative.


First of all, I think you mean "fallacy"?
Second, I have not heard of any accounts of the natives from the various Carribean islands Columbus plundered. Columbus was Italian, his benefactors were Spanish. Therefore, the European view of history has been passed down through the years.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
727LOVER
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:09 pm

Just explain to me why the damn bank is closed ! :lol:
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
BN747
Topic Author
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

But do you? BN747, everything you say here shows you do not conceptially grasp what I am getting at, at all. Distingish between the person and it's deeds.

It's ok, I'll leave it at this, because it only brushes on the subject you brought up.


You can't distinguish between the person and their deads, they are intrinsically linked. If you take aways what they have done then who are they??

Then there's Retired Master Chief Special Warfare Operator Britt Slabinski who is basically a brutal thug in a uniform, who should be rotting in gaol but his Navy Cross upgraded to a Medal of Honor by Trump last year.

But Slabinski’s time in the Navy’s top counterterrorism unit also included complaints of excessive force. In a tape recording of an interview for a 2005 book on the battle of Takur Ghar, he described mutilating the dead body of an insurgent by shooting it full of bullets, an action that is prohibited by the Geneva Conventions. Years later, he reportedly ordered members of his SEAL Team 6 squadron to kill any male Afghans in a target area before a raid

“I mean, he was dead, but people have got nerves,” Slabinski can be heard saying on the recording, a portion of which the Intercept posted online. “I shot him about 20 times in the legs, and every time you’d kick him, er, shoot him, he would kick up, you could see his body twitching and all that.”

“It was really good therapy for everybody who was there,” Slabinski added on the recording.


You really think you can distinguish between a person and their deads when the person is a piece of crap like this man?


Yes, you can and more importantly, you need to. Apparently you want to judge people alone by their deads and especially the deads you see in the public.


A persons deeds are their measure of humanity.
Stay in your home and no outside contact you have a clean slate.
Interact with neighbors you gain 'credibility' as a good neighbor OR you build a reputation of 'bad neighbor or somewhere in the middle.
Start behaving as a menace ..and you now have lost all credibility as a trustworthy person.
Start Harming people, the judgement of you takes a turn for the worst...you are anti-social and not wanted.
Kill someone...all your good deeds (if you ever had any), you have nothing good worth judging or evaluating.

That is pretty much a universal standard of society everywhere.
Of course there are nuances and degrees to be taken in account.

But I ask you this, explain, in your mind, how a person exacting harm (as in killing random people in his community) deserves anything beyond condemnation...
...what positive attributes do you see that most of us do not?

If your answer has any religious leanings filtered in...then say so but that alone kills your argument.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:52 pm

Why is it so hard to understand to still see a human when you despise someone's deeds? Deeds have consequences, obviously.

This concept shouldn't be too hard to grasp.

Kiwirob wrote:
Ybut then again you are Dutch.......


An excellent way to prove my point, you contribute a psychological trade to a group of people, Dutch in this case. so why did you do that?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Why is it so hard to understand to still see a human when you despise someone's deeds? Deeds have consequences, obviously.

This concept shouldn't be too hard to grasp.

Kiwirob wrote:
Ybut then again you are Dutch.......


An excellent way to prove my point, you contribute a psychological trade to a group of people, Dutch in this case. so why did you do that?


What makes humans beyond reproach? A bad human is a bad human. A bad human isn’t any different to a bad dog that mauls a child, we kill it, just like we should kill bad humans.

As a group of people the Dutch handed over almost all their Jews to the Germans, then after the war sweep the deed under the carpet. Most of the govt and police officials who were complicit in the extermination kept their jobs after the occupation ended and carried on as if nothing happened, there were no consequences. It’s part of the Dutch national myth.

Makes for a good read and explains a lot about you.

https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowle ... utch-jews/
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:03 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why is it so hard to understand to still see a human when you despise someone's deeds? Deeds have consequences, obviously.

This concept shouldn't be too hard to grasp.

Kiwirob wrote:
Ybut then again you are Dutch.......


An excellent way to prove my point, you contribute a psychological trade to a group of people, Dutch in this case. so why did you do that?


What makes humans beyond reproach? A bad human is a bad human. A bad human isn’t any different to a bad dog that mauls a child, we kill it, just like we should kill bad humans.

As a group of people the Dutch handed over almost all their Jews to the Germans, then after the war sweep the deed under the carpet. Most of the govt and police officials who were complicit in the extermination kept their jobs after the occupation ended and carried on as if nothing happened, there were no consequences. It’s part of the Dutch national myth.

Makes for a good read and explains a lot about you.

https://www.humanityinaction.org/knowle ... utch-jews/


Wow, amazing, you pass judgment on me based on something that happened in the Netherlands under NAZI Germany occupation over 75 years ago, when my parents weren't even alive. You know nothing about me or my background, I could be a jew for all you know.

So now you just go one step beyond dehumanizing someone, you are actively criminalizing a whole country and its citizens. This kind of reasoning is beyond bizar, you have gone of the deep end, my friend.

So, Rob, I do know you see fit to defend Putin on this side whenever you can and you pass judgment on others without any basis. So what I can say, based on this evidence, that you show a terrible error in judgemental capabilities.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:15 pm

The Dutch people were complicit in what happened to the Dutch Jewish population and then after the war you ignored what you had done.

Lets not talk about Dutchbatt and there actions, puts the Dutch in a similar light and you and your parents were alive then.

I find you obsession with Putin rather amusing, you bring him up more than any other person on this forum. You appear to want to hold Russia to a higher standard but give the US free reign to kill with impunity. Your morals are all over the place, you’re also a hypocrite.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:42 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
The Dutch people were complicit in what happened to the Dutch Jewish population and then after the war you ignored what you had done.

Lets not talk about Dutchbatt and there actions, puts the Dutch in a similar light and you and your parents were alive then.

I find you obsession with Putin rather amusing, you bring him up more than any other person on this forum. You appear to want to hold Russia to a higher standard but give the US free reign to kill with impunity. Your morals are all over the place, you’re also a hypocrite.


So you find it ok to insult me, personally.

To close the circle, you judge people by deeds of others, you judge people by what an arbitrary group you think they belong to. That is the exact same mechanism I talked about and what sparked off this discussion. In the end, that same mechanism might lead to genocide and war. You don't see it, you fail to comprehend this simple mechanism. And this failure you compensate with personal attacks. That is just quite sad.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
BN747
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:48 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Why is it so hard to understand to still see a human when you despise someone's deeds? Deeds have consequences, obviously.

This concept shouldn't be too hard to grasp.

Kiwirob wrote:
Ybut then again you are Dutch.......


An excellent way to prove my point, you contribute a psychological trade to a group of people, Dutch in this case. so why did you do that?


What makes humans beyond reproach? A bad human is a bad human. A bad human isn’t any different to a bad dog that mauls a child, we kill it, just like we should kill bad humans.


Exactly, we must police ourselves.

But you have a problem understanding that some of us ARE a danger to the rest of us.

Rob's example is perfect, if your dog killed a neighbors child...what are you going to do? Treat it as if it never happened?

Same with humans, just lock them up?

How does Humanity benefit by keeping dangerous, harmful people around? What?
You are not valuing human life by allowing killers live...but by eliminating the bad ones, society certainly benefits in a positive way.

So, Dutchy, you haven't like....done anything really, really, really,really, really, really, bad, have you?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:51 am

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:


Then of course when the racists





See? You only start threads here for one reason. We all see it and everyone knows it.


It's sad, but true. Every thread either starts with slavery/racism, or gets tilted that way. It's predictably boring.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Christopher Columbus Now a Terrorist

Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:33 am

@moderators: I suggest this thread be locked. It has derailed spectacularly and ended in personal attacks which leads nowhere. This subject can't be spoken about in a mature and respectful manner, apparently.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos