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ArchGuy1
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Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:29 am

Over the past few days, Catalian protests have taken place in Barcelona and have become violent at times.
https://www.axios.com/catalan-protester ... 5aa70.html
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:32 am

I know I have some buddy pass riders who are stuck there they want to go home. It's basically ruined their trip.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:39 am

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
I know I have some buddy pass riders who are stuck there they want to go home. It's basically ruined their trip.

What are the protests over.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:05 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
I know I have some buddy pass riders who are stuck there they want to go home. It's basically ruined their trip.

What are the protests over.

Eh . . . you'll find the answer in the link you posted, and the link embedded within.
 
MIAspotter
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:12 am

I live in Barcelona, currently the riots are clustered in areas near the city center, thankfully where I live, life goes on as usual, but can´t help but feel hopeless for the other residents enduring such chaos and the damage to the image of Barcelona around the world, but hey, that´s what the independentists wanted.

Hopefully the international community takes note and understand that this is not a pacific movement nor the so-called ¨revolution of the smiles¨, but a bunch of radical fanatics who just want to achieve their goal in any way possible, and the local government instead of condemning the violence and take action to control the situation, just openly supports it and calls it ¨Freedom of expression¨

I am originally from Venezuela and can´t help but compare this movement to that of Chavez, first creating a ¨cause¨ then brainwashing people into believing in it because it is fair, and will benefit you, idolize their leaders, create confrontation amongst the population (divide and conquer) if you don´t support my cause, then you are a fascist and an enemy, and of course you can´t forget the ¨external enemy¨ in this case Spain (as the fascist oppressing state)

And look at where they are now.

MIAspotter,
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seahawk
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:21 am

I must say, after 2 weeks in the region, it felt very strange. On one hand it feels exactly like any other place in Spain (just with many people speaking Catalan), beautiful cities, beautiful landscape, friendly people and then you always come across those very communist looking posters for "free Catalunya" and wonder about the yellow ribbons on the streets. Until you run into a demonstration in which people tell you that Europe needs to wake up and end the awful oppression of the people of Catalunya by Spain. Which kind of left me speechless considering the other impressions of the country.
Last edited by seahawk on Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
MIAspotter
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:50 am

[quote="seahawk"Until you run into a demonstration in which people tell you that Europe needs to wake up and the end the awful oppression of the people of Catalunya by Spain.[/quote]

I always find this part funny, what sort of oppression exactly? Catalunya has one of the greatest levels of autonomy in Spain, Education, Health, Transport, etc, etc.

-they are free to learn, teach and speak Catalan at school (in detriment of Spanish)
-they are free to openly show their culture (dances, castellers, correbous, etc)
-they are free to held massive pro-independence rallies every September 11 and even badmouth their ¨oppresor state¨
-they are free to travel around the world, have their own newspapers and TV Channels (all very pro-independence),
-they are free to own property, and spend their money in whatever they want.

If that´s oppression, wow, I must´ve had a twisted concept then.

Oh wait, they call it oppression because the state won´t allow them to held a referendum for independence, based on a somewhat bizarre principle of ¨right of self-determination¨ which I don´t know where it comes from and how it applies.

The Spanish constitution clearly states that such referendums are NOT allowed under the current constitution, nor is a competence of the local government. unlike the Scottish referendum which was allowed under the UK constitution because Scotland IS a recognized country unlike Catalonia (no matter how the local government tries to twist history to make you believe it was)

In my own opinion, if they wanted to held such referendums, the constitution must be changed, which I am in favour, and then the WHOLE of Spain should have a vote because in all fairness the whole country should have a say over a considerable chunk of its territory wanting to secede, not just the Catalans.

I admit that both the Spanish government and the Catalan government have not played their cards very well and it has brought us to this conflict, but that doesn´t mean that a local government should by force abolish the constitution (using its own parliament) and declare independence which it was happenned in 2017 and lead to the imprisonment of the heads of government.

MIAspotter.
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mad99
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:48 am

They pay in more to the spanish state then they get back, like some other regions. The poorer regions get more then they pay in.

They don’t like that.

Historical side note. The electrical wire was invented in Cataluña. It happened when someone dropped a peseta..
 
JJJ
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:27 am

MIAspotter wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Until you run into a demonstration in which people tell you that Europe needs to wake up and the end the awful oppression of the people of Catalunya by Spain.


I always find this part funny, what sort of oppression exactly? Catalunya has one of the greatest levels of autonomy in Spain, Education, Health, Transport, etc, etc.

-they are free to learn, teach and speak Catalan at school (in detriment of Spanish)
-they are free to openly show their culture (dances, castellers, correbous, etc)
-they are free to held massive pro-independence rallies every September 11 and even badmouth their ¨oppresor state¨
-they are free to travel around the world, have their own newspapers and TV Channels (all very pro-independence),
-they are free to own property, and spend their money in whatever they want.

If that´s oppression, wow, I must´ve had a twisted concept then.

Oh wait, they call it oppression because the state won´t allow them to held a referendum for independence, based on a somewhat bizarre principle of ¨right of self-determination¨ which I don´t know where it comes from and how it applies.


It pays to revisit the event timeline. I'm a Catalan speaker from a region other than Catalonia, plus my wife is Catalan-born, but Asturian/Madridian origin so I can say I have been witnessing the events from a safe, neutral-ish PoV.

Independentism was residual back in the day. Not even nominally pro-Indy ERC were really serious about it. The hegemonic nationalist party CiU was very happy to serve as a crutch to both PSOE and PP central governments in Madrid while they shaped up their own education, media, health care, etc. under the watching eye of Jordi Pujol.

Then three things happened in succession. First was the last Aznar government that gained a majority big enough that it didn't need its traditional nationalist crutches (PNV and CiU) which led to their government suddenly turning hardline on Catalan (and Basque) devolution policies.

On the following regional elections, CiU lost their usually safe regional government seat to a coalition of PSOE, ERC (yes, the indy guys) and IC (another left party) because of widespread corruption of the Pujol family and anything afiliated with CiU which famously got a 3% cut of major projects in Catalonia.

Then PSOE got the central government back and famously reverted the centralist PP policies with Zapatero saying Catalonia would get the Estatut (i.e. regional constitution) they would vote for which, as it turned out, wasn't his call to make and the Constitutional court struck a few words off it.

This was seized by CiU then under heavy court pressure in anti-corruption probes to rally their faithful around the flag and they again got the regional government with a more vicious anti-central government rhetoric which very conveniently masked the flow of politicians in anti-corruption hearings.

Stir for a few more years and that's where we are now.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:32 am

MIAspotter wrote:
unlike the Scottish referendum which was allowed under the UK constitution because Scotland IS a recognized country unlike Catalonia (no matter how the local government tries to twist history to make you believe it was)


Scotland, just like Catalunya or Mecklenburg are subnational entities. Just because the UK twisted the common sense of football, cricket, rugby, whatever associations to play four instead of one, does not make it a country.

MIAspotter wrote:
In my own opinion, if they wanted to held such referendums, the constitution must be changed, which I am in favour, and then the WHOLE of Spain should have a vote because in all fairness the whole country should have a say over a considerable chunk of its territory wanting to secede, not just the Catalans.


The more difficult Spain makes it for Catalunya to secede and to be established and recognized as a country , the more difficult it will be to have normal relations in post-secession era. Right now, Spain behaves like Russia or Serbia in the 1990s... trying to keep a dysfunctional country together by force.
The only difference is the EU turning a blind eye to it.
 
MIAspotter
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:09 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Right now, Spain behaves like Russia or Serbia in the 1990s... trying to keep a dysfunctional country together by force.
The only difference is the EU turning a blind eye to it.


I wouldn´t call it dysfunctional, just that a few of the autonomous regions took advantage of the self-governing status to create structures and start sececionist movements, or get more privileges out of the central government (like the Vasque Country and Navarra)

As for the EU, the last thing they need right now apart from the brexit mess, is to regions from member states starting to separate and creating an even bigger chaos, the EU has said that the Catalonian issue is an internal affair of Spain and they won´t be interfering.

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JJJ
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:40 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:

The more difficult Spain makes it for Catalunya to secede and to be established and recognized as a country , the more difficult it will be to have normal relations in post-secession era. Right now, Spain behaves like Russia or Serbia in the 1990s... trying to keep a dysfunctional country together by force.
The only difference is the EU turning a blind eye to it.


More like a dysfunctional region.

Catalonia is totally split down the middle, and only gets a majority nationalist government because of the electoral law that gives more weight to rural areas.

So Spain is supposed to give in to the pressure of a very vocal 40-something %, what about the other 40-something % that definitely, very much do not want to secede?
 
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mad99
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:12 pm

JJJ wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:

The more difficult Spain makes it for Catalunya to secede and to be established and recognized as a country , the more difficult it will be to have normal relations in post-secession era. Right now, Spain behaves like Russia or Serbia in the 1990s... trying to keep a dysfunctional country together by force.
The only difference is the EU turning a blind eye to it.


More like a dysfunctional region.

Catalonia is totally split down the middle, and only gets a majority nationalist government because of the electoral law that gives more weight to rural areas.

So Spain is supposed to give in to the pressure of a very vocal 40-something %, what about the other 40-something % that definitely, very much do not want to secede?



And you could argue that 50,01% is not enough to push hit over the line. Look at Brexit, 51% and it affects so many people. Such a big change seems like it should have a greater % than 50%
 
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Aesma
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:35 pm

Catalunya is sinking any hope for other regions in the world who would like some autonomy from a central government, showing that the more you give the more they want until secession.

L410Turbolet : what part of your country are you ready to let go ?
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WildcatYXU
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:41 pm

Aesma wrote:
Catalunya is sinking any hope for other regions in the world who would like some autonomy from a central government, showing that the more you give the more they want until secession.

L410Turbolet : what part of your country are you ready to let go ?


Wrong question. L410 had already gone through this experience when the country where he was born was split.
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seahawk
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:22 pm

mad99 wrote:
JJJ wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:

The more difficult Spain makes it for Catalunya to secede and to be established and recognized as a country , the more difficult it will be to have normal relations in post-secession era. Right now, Spain behaves like Russia or Serbia in the 1990s... trying to keep a dysfunctional country together by force.
The only difference is the EU turning a blind eye to it.


More like a dysfunctional region.

Catalonia is totally split down the middle, and only gets a majority nationalist government because of the electoral law that gives more weight to rural areas.

So Spain is supposed to give in to the pressure of a very vocal 40-something %, what about the other 40-something % that definitely, very much do not want to secede?



And you could argue that 50,01% is not enough to push hit over the line. Look at Brexit, 51% and it affects so many people. Such a big change seems like it should have a greater % than 50%


Should be a 2/3 majority.

The whole situation is a bit weird imho. The posters and so reminded me of Cuba in deepest communist times and some things are really strange. Like information signs in tourist areas showing: Catalan, French, English and German but no Castellano .Or waiters in a restaurant that refuse to understand Castellano - but are perfectly happy to speak German or English with you. Or as the receptionist in our hotel said. If in doubt, ask a question in English or German not Spanish.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:01 pm

Is there a building with an observation deck nearby where I can watch it unfold? What is its significance in all of this?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
extender
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:18 pm

I haven't been to Barcelona since 2017, but the times I wen in 2015, 2016 and 2017, I never had any issues speaking Castellano. Either in hotels, restaurants or on the street.

People should be able to choose their government/independence.
 
JJJ
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:48 pm

extender wrote:
I haven't been to Barcelona since 2017, but the times I wen in 2015, 2016 and 2017, I never had any issues speaking Castellano. Either in hotels, restaurants or on the street.


A lot if not most of waiters/receptionists/etc. are Latin Americans these days. Getting service in Catalan is the real challenge in Barcelona.

On non-tourist smaller villages of course the phenomenon experienced by Seahawk is perfectly possible.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:09 pm

Standing with Catalunya on this.

Self-determination is the way to go. Too often gov't all around the world wants to keep a dysfunctional union together based on some random border drawn years ago.

Protests getting violent? So what? It's gov't and their heavy-hand tactics that teach people how peaceful protests can no longer work!
 
DTWorld
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:32 am

Heading to BCN for a few days in late January and booked things well before current events unfolded. I'm thinking things will simmer down between now and then, but I'm watching the situation closely as my hotel just happens to be located in Passeig de Gracia (aka ground zero for a lot of the demonstrations). Luckily, I'm flying in on a Tuesday and leaving for Valencia on a Friday.
 
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fallap
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:22 am

Sentences were justified, those guilty illegally tried to separate Catalonia from the rest of Spain. It's all fun and games until you realise that your newly independent nation is worthless and have no say internationally. Also, if these independent movements gains legal legitimacy it will foster god knows how many new independent movements across Europe that risks tearing apart everything we have worked hard to achieve since the peace at Westphalia.
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seahawk
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:06 am

extender wrote:
I haven't been to Barcelona since 2017, but the times I wen in 2015, 2016 and 2017, I never had any issues speaking Castellano. Either in hotels, restaurants or on the street.

People should be able to choose their government/independence.


It was north of Girona in Besalou to be exact.

The amazing thing imho is that people still support the idea while Brexit is going on. Even if you would come to the conclusion that you can gain independence the question what comes after that is completely unanswered. A new Catalunya might not be in the EU, which would mean a hard border with Span and France, which would probably be devastating for the industry. It might no longer have the Euro and would not be part of the Schengen area. It would have no trade deals with the rest of the world either.

The movement has the same "unicorn" problem as the UK. Even if you would get the Spanish government to let them brake away and agree to not block an entry into the EU, that entry will still take time and any other EU member could still block it. And there are quite a few who might have no interest in nurturing independence movements in their own country.
 
JJJ
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:53 pm

seahawk wrote:
extender wrote:
I haven't been to Barcelona since 2017, but the times I wen in 2015, 2016 and 2017, I never had any issues speaking Castellano. Either in hotels, restaurants or on the street.

People should be able to choose their government/independence.


It was north of Girona in Besalou to be exact.


That's exactly the kind of place. Rural Girona is the heartland of the Catalan nationalist feeling.

The amazing thing imho is that people still support the idea while Brexit is going on. Even if you would come to the conclusion that you can gain independence the question what comes after that is completely unanswered. A new Catalunya might not be in the EU, which would mean a hard border with Span and France, which would probably be devastating for the industry. It might no longer have the Euro and would not be part of the Schengen area. It would have no trade deals with the rest of the world either.

The movement has the same "unicorn" problem as the UK. Even if you would get the Spanish government to let them brake away and agree to not block an entry into the EU, that entry will still take time and any other EU member could still block it. And there are quite a few who might have no interest in nurturing independence movements in their own country.


Exactly. You can put Catalan and Brexiteer rhetoric side-by-side and they're almost identical.

"They wouldn't dare kick us out", "We would be getting a better deal", "We will trade with China" etc.
 
anrec80
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:34 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
The more difficult Spain makes it for Catalunya to secede and to be established and recognized as a country , the more difficult it will be to have normal relations in post-secession era. Right now, Spain behaves like Russia or Serbia in the 1990s... trying to keep a dysfunctional country together by force.
The only difference is the EU turning a blind eye to it.


Wait a min - so now Spain is a dysfunctional state? Speaking of relations - Catalonians need to understand that once they get their independence, nobody has any responsibilities for them, their wellbeing, their relations. Whatsoever.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:14 pm

I support people's right to protest, but the constitution is quite clear on this matter.

JJJ wrote:
Exactly. You can put Catalan and Brexiteer rhetoric side-by-side and they're almost identical.

"They wouldn't dare kick us out", "We would be getting a better deal", "We will trade with China" etc.

:checkmark: "They need us more than we need them" - the howls of somebody who has absolutely no idea whatsoever about any of the things they profess to be knowledgeable about.
First to fly the 787-9
 
SCQ83
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:13 pm

WildcatYXU wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Catalunya is sinking any hope for other regions in the world who would like some autonomy from a central government, showing that the more you give the more they want until secession.

L410Turbolet : what part of your country are you ready to let go ?


Wrong question. L410 had already gone through this experience when the country where he was born was split.


The most similar thing IMO is Canada and Quebec.

At the end of the day it is all about the money.

Barcelona (which amounts to about 80% of GDP/population in Catalonia) economically is becoming more and more irrelevant in the same way that Montreal has became quite irrelevant in Canada. And a lot has to do with this Catalan issue (aka creating additional issues for non-Catalans and companies operating there to "adapt" to their idiosyncrasy). So it has became a never-ending vicious circle. The more "extremist" that region becomes, the more companies and "foreigners" (aka Spaniards from other regions) move away to other places (mainly Madrid).

International corporations today don't even hesitate and they just settle in Madrid in the same way that in France they just settle in Paris or in Canada in Toronto. That was very different a couple of decades ago.I don't know a single person under 30 from Galicia working or living in Barcelona, and I can't think even of how many people I know living in Madrid.

This article in a Spanish newspaper shows how Madrid is starting to resemble the London or Paris or the Iberian Peninsula, so what will be Barcelona and Lisbon? Maybe something like Marseille and Manchester.

https://www.elconfidencial.com/economia ... s_2240155/

Interestingly something that the article points (and that I have personally noticed) is that there is even an increasing number of college-graduate Catalans working in Madrid... because if you want to work in Google or Amazon Spain... guess where their offices are? In Madrid, of course. Maybe if this was 1992, they would have settled in Barcelona. But there is no way back.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:22 pm

And the more violence and chaos they create, the less tourists will be coming. I was planing to visit Catalunya again next year, but now I am looking at Galicia, Andalusia and Asturias.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:29 pm

zakuivcustom wrote:
Standing with Catalunya on this.

Self-determination is the way to go. Too often gov't all around the world wants to keep a dysfunctional union together based on some random border drawn years ago.

Protests getting violent? So what? It's gov't and their heavy-hand tactics that teach people how peaceful protests can no longer work!


Comparing freedoms in China VS Spain and the situation in HKG VS Catalonia is hilarious.

I saw the other day on TV some Chinese people with a billboard in front of the Chinese consulate in Barcelona with "Hong Kong is China" and some Catalan extremists trying to attack them.

https://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2019/10 ... b4623.html

I hope the PRC advises their good-willing mainland Chinese citizens to avoid the conflictive Spanish region of Catalonia so they spend their hard-earned yuans in Madrid or anywhere else in Spain :lol: Maybe Cathay's HKG-BCN could be nicknamed the riot route.
 
YokoTsuno
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:30 pm

SCQ83 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Comparing freedoms in China VS Spain and the situation in HKG VS Catalonia is hilarious.
No it's not. In Spain there's people in jail for doing what they have been elected for, opinions in other words. You can disagree with the seccesion but throwing people in jail for political reasons is something that only happens in dictatorships.
 
SCQ83
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:05 am

YokoTsuno wrote:
SCQ83 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Comparing freedoms in China VS Spain and the situation in HKG VS Catalonia is hilarious.
No it's not. In Spain there's people in jail for doing what they have been elected for, opinions in other words. You can disagree with the seccesion but throwing people in jail for political reasons is something that only happens in dictatorships.


They haven't been elected to organise an illegal referendum using public resources (including anything from schools to Catalonian police).

It is like in twenty years from now, Muslim politicians in France, Germany or the UK decide to organise an "official" referendum in the country (using voting polls in schools, etc.) on whether to change the judicial system to implement the Sharia as the only common law in those countries. Because why not, those countries are "democracies" so people should be entitled to do as they please. And they do it. And then they are judged for organising it (obviously trying to implement the Sharia law would go against the basic principles of life in those countries), they fail (only pro-Sharia people would vote) and are sent to jail and their supporters protest and riot in the streets.

It would sound ridiculous, but this is exactly the same the concept; a minority (because even in Catalonia the % of people that want Catalonia independent is less than 50%) trying to impose their wishes on the majority and going against the very basic constitution of the country they are living in.
 
YokoTsuno
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:05 am

SCQ83 wrote:
It would sound ridiculous, but this is exactly the same the concept; a minority (because even in Catalonia the % of people that want Catalonia independent is less than 50%) trying to impose their wishes on the majority and going against the very basic constitution of the country they are living in.
If I understand you correctly you are saying that if a country has a constitution that lets say Asian people are inferior to Whites, people who protest (and hold referenda) for this to change are criminals? A constitution is not any different from other law and therefore not necessarily fair. Even the UN has a clause for self determination. So why should Catalonians accept that they once became part of Spain for whatever reason (Don't know anything about Spanish history but this was most likely in you join or you die style) and the Spanish not accept that the Catalonians want to split for whatever reason?

The Spanish government is cherry picking democracy here. This is the 21st century, you don't solve disputes with guns and jail. You talk to each other, in HK as well as in Spain. Take an example from the UK, they messed up Brexit tremendously, but for one thing you have to take your hat off, they understand democracy and let Scotland vote to split from the UK. Spain should take a lesson here if it doesn't want to be seen as just another China.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:55 am

Democracy works both ways.

The law that created the referendum in Catalunya never saw the needed 2/3 majority in the Catalan parliament. Now add that the results of the vote in 2017 were highly irregular. People could vote more than once, some districts had more yes votes than voters and so on.
 
JJJ
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Re: Protests in Barcelona

Sun Oct 27, 2019 12:56 pm

seahawk wrote:
Democracy works both ways.

The law that created the referendum in Catalunya never saw the needed 2/3 majority in the Catalan parliament. Now add that the results of the vote in 2017 were highly irregular. People could vote more than once, some districts had more yes votes than voters and so on.


Pretty much. The immediate reasons behind the current crisis go back to the then elected government trying to push what amounts to a constitutional change without the needed majority. There are limits to executive power for a reason, and if you try to pass a fundamental law without the reinforced majority you need the courts will shoot it down. If you persist the courts will prosecute you, and if you disobey a direct court order you end up in prison.

That's how things work in a parliamentary system with separation of powers.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos