caliboy93
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Why is India behind China?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:32 am

So a few decades ago, India and China had similar development and living standards, but today, while both countries are rapidly developing and have populations well over 1 billion, India is still behind China. Why is China ahead of India, any explanations?
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:36 am

Totalitarian versus democratic rule. Beijing wants to build a highway system they bulldoze anything they want. Believe or not, in India, they fight back. India still has a nationalistic streak, too.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:07 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Totalitarian versus democratic rule. Beijing wants to build a highway system they bulldoze anything they want. Believe or not, in India, they fight back. India still has a nationalistic streak, too.


This is true. But it also coupled with a wildly different social outlook.

In many ways, China is incomprehensible to anyone from a democracy, failed or pre-failed. While they are indeed a totalitarian dictatorship (by most metrics), there is a lot of voluntary buy-in from the population.

And that comes from the idea that China doing and building what it does is just something everyone does.

It is vanishingly unlikely that we would ever see something like the BRI created by India.

Indeed, the very long term planning the Belt and Road Initive requires would be unlikely even from the US.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
DTVG
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:18 am

Better functioning institutions coupled with better working crony capitalism (local governments create local monopolies that compete nationwide). Lately you could argue higher education and R&D expenditures.
Overall a quite successful strategy that other asian countries employed to bring a country to a middle income.
 
luckyone
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:55 pm

How much does the concept of a national identity play a role? Purely anecdotal, but when I interact with “Indians,” they’re very quick to tell you and each other how different they are based upon their language and state of origin. I don’t observe that in the Chinese. Could this transpose upwards into their political and organizational discourse, especially given that China has a much more authoritative central government?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:26 pm

luckyone wrote:
I don’t observe that in the Chinese.

If they are Han Chinese.

Tugg
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Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:34 pm

caliboy93 wrote:
So a few decades ago, India and China had similar development and living standards, but today, while both countries are rapidly developing and have populations well over 1 billion, India is still behind China. Why is China ahead of India, any explanations?


If you’ve ever worked with Indian companies you’d know the answer.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:38 pm

luckyone wrote:
How much does the concept of a national identity play a role? Purely anecdotal, but when I interact with “Indians,” they’re very quick to tell you and each other how different they are based upon their language and state of origin. I don’t observe that in the Chinese.


The language part feel more "unified" as all educations are in Mandarin, and IIRC younger people literally are not allow to speak the local language (i.e. Cantonese in Guangdong, Hu Chinese in Shanghai) in many places.

Don't think for a minute that regional rivalry doesn't exist, though. Ask a true Shanghai local how they feel about everyone not from there for once...(Ok, to be fair, Shanghaiese are like Texans and they live in their own world :)).

Actually, go to Paris, the people from Dongbei (Northeast) China barely interact with the people from Wenzhou. Or go to NYC where there's a Chinatown for the Cantonese (mainly HK/Guangdong) speaking population, one for the people from Fuzhou (In both Brooklyn and also the original Chinatown in Manhattan), then the "main" one (largely Mandarin-speaking) in Flushing.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:03 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Totalitarian versus democratic rule. Beijing wants to build a highway system they bulldoze anything they want.

That’s an outdated urban myth. Maybe it used to be that way in the past but since I am visiting several large infrastructure projects in China every three months or so and have been doing so now for seven years I can assure you it’s not like that.
 
chimborazo
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
So a few decades ago, India and China had similar development and living standards, but today, while both countries are rapidly developing and have populations well over 1 billion, India is still behind China. Why is China ahead of India, any explanations?


If you’ve ever worked with Indian companies you’d know the answer.


+1.

I’ve worked all over the world and in the 3 months I had in India it is the hardest place to get things done. Again based on my experience, folk work against each other and don’t seem to have a common aim of getting things done.

Total opposite 4 months in China: they know how to get things done. Okay they later copied a load of equipment we supplied but it follows the saying: “In China you only get to build one factory.” :-)
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:57 pm

China has figured out that efficiency at any cost is critical for a rapid ramp up in any area, be it infrastructure, investment, or economy. While their method of doing it is controversial, no one denies that it has worked out pretty well for them. China has a unique ability to build, manufacture, and produce using economies of scale that most other countries can't even dream of. The size of the country as well as its population has also helped a lot in order to mobilize its available resources and employable population. They have basically used this to kickstart phase 2 of their plan which is expanding outside China's borders using BRI as an economic tool of influence and soft power in developing countries while simultaneously increasing their hard power projection ability as an increasingly regional and global power. The result of this is basically a country that is slowly but surely challenging the established global unipolarity in favor of a bipolar world where the US has significant global influence but not the level of dominance it may once have had in decades past where it was able to dictate its terms without any serious opposition.

India is none of these. They have made significant strides in certain sectors such as the IT business, but you really have to have dealt with Indian bureaucracy in person in order to fully appreciate just how much red tape there actually is. Simple tasks like trying to get an exemption for tax paid on investor money are complicated by having to register with different regulatory bodies in order to receive the exemption and further complicated depending on whether or not you registered before or after changes were made to those eligible for that exemption. In China, something like this would be a non-issue. This doesn't even account for all the other problems India has at the moment, mainly how the country can have such a high unemployment rate at a time when all pistons should be firing with as much hiring as possible. India needs a ground up reform in pretty much every area to have any hope of catching up to China. They need a complete overhaul of government bureaucracy to fast track foreign investment instead of queueing it in the same line as domestic business. They also need a complete redo of their education system as well a substantial increase not only in the workforce itself but also the employable population as a whole. One of the biggest obstacles for India is just how widespread extreme poverty is throughout the country and the severity of it from a socioeconomic lens. A lot of people are surprised that Iran under sanctions still has far better living conditions for the average Iranian than the average Indian would have despite India's huge economy. The poverty situation is something that must be seen to be fully grasped and it is actually far more serious than most people realize. India has one billion people but unlike China, only a fraction (roughly 30 million people in India vs 200 million in China) of that is actually employed in the white collar sector and could be classified in the middle class consumer market. There are a lot of companies that see 1 billion people and gravitate towards it without realizing that the actual market is far smaller than that. So India must address problems like poverty and its govt's increasing nationalist and authoritarian slide in order to solve a lot of underlying issues.

Fortunately for India, the US has decided to engage China in a trade war where the US and China both lose. But India must be cautious as the US is just as willing to use the same tariffs and trade weapons against India so it is a double edged sword.
 
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stl07
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:50 pm

luckyone wrote:
How much does the concept of a national identity play a role? Purely anecdotal, but when I interact with “Indians,” they’re very quick to tell you and each other how different they are based upon their language and state of origin. I don’t observe that in the Chinese. Could this transpose upwards into their political and organizational discourse, especially given that China has a much more authoritative central government?

I'm assuming you didn't read or forgot about the thread about what China was doing to its ethnic groups.

Again, it all comes down to freedom vs totalitarianism. For many, it is worth it. "give me freedom or give me death," anyone? But for others, especially those living in poor conditions, money is more important, which explains why you see Indian expats working all over the ME/ASIA in authoritarian countries nobody wants to live in (Kuwait, UAE, Qatar, ect).

Great connection, by the way, I had forgotten how heterogonous the Indian population was.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
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stl07
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:52 pm

N14AZ wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Totalitarian versus democratic rule. Beijing wants to build a highway system they bulldoze anything they want.

That’s an outdated urban myth. Maybe it used to be that way in the past but since I am visiting several large infrastructure projects in China every three months or so and have been doing so now for seven years I can assure you it’s not like that.

Maybe the 2nd half of his statement, but definitely not his 1st sentence. That remains true
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:32 am

stl07 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Totalitarian versus democratic rule. Beijing wants to build a highway system they bulldoze anything they want.

That’s an outdated urban myth. Maybe it used to be that way in the past but since I am visiting several large infrastructure projects in China every three months or so and have been doing so now for seven years I can assure you it’s not like that.

Maybe the 2nd half of his statement, but definitely not his 1st sentence. That remains true


I'll need to research this again but didn't they basically say F U to all the people living along the riverways that got flooded when the three gorges dam was completed?
 
aviationaware
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:38 am

India also plays by the rules whereas China is the master of getting away with cheating.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:43 am

trpmb6 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
That’s an outdated urban myth. Maybe it used to be that way in the past but since I am visiting several large infrastructure projects in China every three months or so and have been doing so now for seven years I can assure you it’s not like that.

Maybe the 2nd half of his statement, but definitely not his 1st sentence. That remains true


I'll need to research this again but didn't they basically say F U to all the people living along the riverways that got flooded when the three gorges dam was completed?


Well sounds like they relocated everyone. About 1.3 million. Good luck getting that to fly anywhere else in the world.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:13 am

stl07 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Totalitarian versus democratic rule. Beijing wants to build a highway system they bulldoze anything they want.

That’s an outdated urban myth. Maybe it used to be that way in the past but since I am visiting several large infrastructure projects in China every three months or so and have been doing so now for seven years I can assure you it’s not like that.

Maybe the 2nd half of his statement, but definitely not his 1st sentence. That remains true

Yes, I was referring to the GF‘s second statement only.

trpmb6 wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Maybe the 2nd half of his statement, but definitely not his 1st sentence. That remains true


I'll need to research this again but didn't they basically say F U to all the people living along the riverways that got flooded when the three gorges dam was completed?


Well sounds like they relocated everyone. About 1.3 million. Good luck getting that to fly anywhere else in the world.

I am sure it wouldn’t be that easy (cheap) in China nowadays.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:17 am

aviationaware wrote:
India also plays by the rules whereas China is the master of getting away with cheating.


India is playing by the rules and they are paying the price for it. China may be cheating but anyone that thinks the US is playing by the rules is a fool.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Why is India behind China?

Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:57 am

IMO, China became a modern economic superpower because of Henry Kissenger. From Nixon administration onwards every single US administration/corporation diligently transferred major chunk of modern technology to China. Whatever the west didn't transfer they used other methods to acquire.

With decent R&D spending, initially, on reverse engineering now on new technologies, they no longer need to steal western technology.

China's strategy going back to the Hans dynasty always been using trade as a carrot and military as a stick. Worked well for them and strategy hasn't changed just got modernized.

India's economy is agricultural and service-based. No one is ready to transfer modern industrial/manufacturing technology to India, even if someone does, it will take another 30 years to match present-day China.

But it appears the state of the economy is not a concern to many Indians, particularly educated ones. They have other issues to settle first.

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