Arion640
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:31 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Corbyn/Labour rightly called out this evening on anti semitism by chief Rabbi.


You mean the decidedly pro Tory rabbi has once again trotted out the tired and unsubstantiated rumour as part of an obviously coordinated smear campaign (yesterday it was Maureen Lipman) on the day Labour launches its faith and race manifesto...

As I've said before I'm not a Labour supporter but this anti semitism thing is so obviously propagandist and always has been. That versus the proven racism and anti muslim words and actions of not only a large part of the members but also the leadership of the Tory party.


The anti semitism scandal is well documented. Please read up on this.
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:07 pm

Arion640 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Corbyn/Labour rightly called out this evening on anti semitism by chief Rabbi.


You mean the decidedly pro Tory rabbi has once again trotted out the tired and unsubstantiated rumour as part of an obviously coordinated smear campaign (yesterday it was Maureen Lipman) on the day Labour launches its faith and race manifesto...

As I've said before I'm not a Labour supporter but this anti semitism thing is so obviously propagandist and always has been. That versus the proven racism and anti muslim words and actions of not only a large part of the members but also the leadership of the Tory party.


The anti semitism scandal is well documented. Please read up on this.


I am read up on it. All the evidence shows minimal institutional -isms in a Labour party which has taken action to rectify even that small number of incidents and has a leader who is definitely not anti semitic himself.

That versus a Tory party absolutely riven with racism and anti Muslim sentiment (I read today 52% of members polled) and a leader who brazenly and openly talks about letter box burqas and picaninnies with their watermelon smiles.

The scandal - for want of a better word - is based not on any shred of evidence at all but is entirely anecdotal... Which means it can never be disproven and can be brought up again whenever someone wants to cause trouble.

Seriously, how can this possibly be comparable? And the timing makes it undeniably propaganda.
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Reinhardt
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:00 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:

I am read up on it. All the evidence shows minimal institutional -isms in a Labour party which has taken action to rectify even that small number of incidents and has a leader who is definitely not anti semitic himself.

That versus a Tory party absolutely riven with racism and anti Muslim sentiment (I read today 52% of members polled) and a leader who brazenly and openly talks about letter box burqas and picaninnies with their watermelon smiles.

The scandal - for want of a better word - is based not on any shred of evidence at all but is entirely anecdotal... Which means it can never be disproven and can be brought up again whenever someone wants to cause trouble.

Seriously, how can this possibly be comparable? And the timing makes it undeniably propaganda.


The Chief Rabbi has publically (on Facebook) endorsed Boris. He congratulated him on becoming PM, called him a 'Friend' and that the Conservatives were the true friends of Jews. There is also a very nasty habbit of UK jews deliberately confusing criticism of Israel govenment / policy and anti-semitism (as there is in the US).

I have no idea how much genuine anti-semitism in Labour there actually is. What we do know is for sure is that anti-muslim sentiment as you have shown in commonplace in the Tories, and will only increase with more ex UKIP, BNP voters vote for them purely because of Brexit. And no not all UKIP supporters are racist, but plenty are.
 
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Aesma
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:22 pm

Of course these Tories might very well be antisemites too !
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zkojq
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:26 pm

Probably my favourite tweet of all time:

Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband: https://facebook.com/DavidCameronOffici ... 2725449379


https://mobile.twitter.com/david_camero ... 7358406656
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opticalilyushin
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:45 pm

Arion640 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Corbyn/Labour rightly called out this evening on anti semitism by chief Rabbi.


You mean the decidedly pro Tory rabbi has once again trotted out the tired and unsubstantiated rumour as part of an obviously coordinated smear campaign (yesterday it was Maureen Lipman) on the day Labour launches its faith and race manifesto...

As I've said before I'm not a Labour supporter but this anti semitism thing is so obviously propagandist and always has been. That versus the proven racism and anti muslim words and actions of not only a large part of the members but also the leadership of the Tory party.


The anti semitism scandal is well documented. Please read up on this.


Corbyn has apologised for any anti-Semitism or wrongful things that any member in Labour has come out with, as well as stating that there is no place in the party for such hatred. It's a shame that on live TV BoJo wouldn't apologise for his horrible slurs on gay men, black people and Muslim women. Corbyn may not be perfect, but at least unlike the Tories he has compassion
 
Jetty
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:27 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
That versus a Tory party absolutely riven with (...) anti Muslim sentiment (I read today 52% of members polled)

In the context of UK's overall numbers that isn't a noteworthy outcome at all.

Almost a third of UK adults think Islam encourages Muslims to carry out acts of violence against non-Muslims, a survey suggests. It found nearly half (48 per cent) think the religion is ‘incompatible’ with British values.

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2019/08/02/nearly-h ... to=cbshare

Note that survey even includes Muslims.

Meanwhile comrade Corbyn shares the stage with people like this:

Image
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ogise.html

:bomb:
 
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scbriml
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:26 am

Meanwhile, the Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that Labour and Tory spending plans are "not credible". Should surprise nobody.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50585818
The Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) said it was "highly likely" the Tories would end up spending more than their manifesto pledges.

Labour, it warned, would be unable to deliver its spending increases as it has promised.

Neither was being "honest" with voters, director Paul Johnson said.

He said that the Conservatives were continuing to "pretend that tax rises will never be needed to secure decent public services".

Labour, he added, "pretends that huge increases in spending can be financed by just big companies and the rich".
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:34 am

At least it looks like things come to the end and Brexit will finally happen.
 
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:42 pm

Maybe stupid questions but… I’ve been to https://vote.conservatives.com/ to get an idea, and it’s totally Boris Johnson centered, he’s the only one to appear on front page and manifestos. In case Tories wins a majority but BJ doesn’t win his seat, it will be same thing than after T. May resignation ?
In such case, I believe BJ would have to step down from N°10 immediately, how long would it take to have a PM and government in place ?

I imagine that it can't actually happen as the constituency where he is running have been carefully selected to be a Tory safe seat. Right ?

Also worth noting, some here or in the Brexit thread where discussing the possibility this GE to be a “one topic election” only centered on Brexit, I have to say at least in this conservative website Brexit is not even a topic ! Merely mentioned as catchphrase in the “A strong economy” manifesto, “get Brexit done” of course, “End Brexit uncertainty” , “help business to make the most of Brexit”.
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scbriml
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:29 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Maybe stupid questions but… I’ve been to https://vote.conservatives.com/ to get an idea, and it’s totally Boris Johnson centered, he’s the only one to appear on front page and manifestos. In case Tories wins a majority but BJ doesn’t win his seat, it will be same thing than after T. May resignation ?
In such case, I believe BJ would have to step down from N°10 immediately, how long would it take to have a PM and government in place ?


If the Tories won the election but Johnson was not elected in his seat, then he would cease to be PM and the Tories would have to elect a new leader who would automatically become PM. I believe while Parliament is suspended for the election, technically we don't have any MPs or a PM until a new government is formed.
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Grizzly410
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:36 pm

scbriml wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Maybe stupid questions but… I’ve been to https://vote.conservatives.com/ to get an idea, and it’s totally Boris Johnson centered, he’s the only one to appear on front page and manifestos. In case Tories wins a majority but BJ doesn’t win his seat, it will be same thing than after T. May resignation ?
In such case, I believe BJ would have to step down from N°10 immediately, how long would it take to have a PM and government in place ?


If the Tories won the election but Johnson was not elected in his seat, then he would cease to be PM and the Tories would have to elect a new leader who would automatically become PM. I believe while Parliament is suspended for the election, technically we don't have any MPs or a PM until a new government is formed.


Thanks.
What a weird election system where the campaigner PM could win the election at national level and be ousted from parliament at the same time.
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par13del
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:57 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Thanks.
What a weird election system where the campaigner PM could win the election at national level and be ousted from parliament at the same time.

In the case of a non-republic form of government, the standard practice is that the leader of the party with the majority seats is the Prime Minister, he must be an elected member, if the party leader does not win his seat, the party get's to select who will be the PM. We may have some party "constitutions" (not the country) that would allow a leader to be a non-serving member of parliament, but as elections are held every 5 years, it would be a long time to essentially attempt to "pull the strings" from outside the house, probably also draw too much attention to how much the party actually runs the show versus the MP's being there to represent their constituents.
In a republic form of government, the post of president is usually voted on nationally therefore more of an individual versus party election.
 
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scbriml
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:09 pm

Grizzly410 wrote:
Thanks.
What a weird election system where the campaigner PM could win the election at national level and be ousted from parliament at the same time.


It's what we're used to. The party leaders normally have very safe seats, just to avoid such embarrassments.

Given the bitter divisions we've seen in the country and Parliament, I'm expecting to see some really off-the-wall results with more than a few shocks. There will be lots of tactical voting happening.
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:25 pm

So, the election is held in December, that means maybe with the holiday breaks only 3 weeks to sort out the results, maybe arrange combinations of parties to have a majority, shift people around, deal with new MP's, choose the PM, and develop a Brexit plan, figure out how to deal with NI/Rep. of Ireland arrangements, pass necessary enacting laws, all by the end of January. That means another extension or a crash out Brexit with all its likely disastrous results.
 
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:03 pm

I do find it comforting in a way that the election should be held during the English Panotmime season.
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L410Turbolet
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:50 pm

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
tired and unsubstantiated rumour as part of an obviously coordinated smear campaign

No need for any campaiagn. All they need is let comrade Corbyn speak his mind.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:03 am

Did I hear it right? Johnson refused to come to a climate debate (the most important debate if you ask me, much more important than Brexit) and Channel four placed an ice sculpture instead with the Torrie logo. Brilliant visual of course, well done.

A bit shameful that Boris Johnson seems to want to revise Channel 4's broadcasting license, just like the reaction of a small child.
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Arion640
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:11 am

Labour have pledged to plant 2 Billion trees in 20 years. Now if my maths is correct, this is over 273,000 trees per day?

Even if this is apparently achievable, you have to do more than plant trees to sort out climate change.
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SomebodyInTLS
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:16 am

Arion640 wrote:
Labour have pledged to plant 2 Billion trees in 20 years. Now if my maths is correct, this is over 273,000 trees per day?

Even if this is apparently achievable, you have to do more than plant trees to sort out climate change.


Was reading today that there is an existing government pledge to plant slightly less trees over a slightly longer period... so Labour's plan is just to boost it a bit.
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par13del
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:13 am

Dutchy wrote:
Did I hear it right? Johnson refused to come to a climate debate (the most important debate if you ask me, much more important than Brexit) and

Help me to understand the current status quo on climate change rules etc., in the EU are individual governments doing their own thing or do they have to follow the decisions made by the EU, I suspect the latter.
One of the reasons why some are saying Brexit will be a disaster and trade negotiations will take decades is because the UK has little technical expertise in these things, so for a local election, how important is the debate between local politicians on items that are being decided by the EU?
It may be project fear in reverse, but the flooding that the UK has had the last couple years has been blamed in some instances to the lack of dredging an inability to plant in certain areas due to EU environmental rules, if true, assume this is all related to climate change and preserving the environment.
 
Arion640
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:33 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Labour have pledged to plant 2 Billion trees in 20 years. Now if my maths is correct, this is over 273,000 trees per day?

Even if this is apparently achievable, you have to do more than plant trees to sort out climate change.


Was reading today that there is an existing government pledge to plant slightly less trees over a slightly longer period... so Labour's plan is just to boost it a bit.


Still both ridiculous ideas...

At least the current tory plan is more achievable then :D
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Dano1977
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:49 am

SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Labour have pledged to plant 2 Billion trees in 20 years. Now if my maths is correct, this is over 273,000 trees per day?

Even if this is apparently achievable, you have to do more than plant trees to sort out climate change.


Was reading today that there is an existing government pledge to plant slightly less trees over a slightly longer period... so Labour's plan is just to boost it a bit.



That's 600 trees every minute, if my back of a napkin maths is correct.
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Dutchy
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:35 am

par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Did I hear it right? Johnson refused to come to a climate debate (the most important debate if you ask me, much more important than Brexit) and

Help me to understand the current status quo on climate change rules etc., in the EU are individual governments doing their own thing or do they have to follow the decisions made by the EU, I suspect the latter.
One of the reasons why some are saying Brexit will be a disaster and trade negotiations will take decades is because the UK has little technical expertise in these things, so for a local election, how important is the debate between local politicians on items that are being decided by the EU?
It may be project fear in reverse, but the flooding that the UK has had the last couple years has been blamed in some instances to the lack of dredging an inability to plant in certain areas due to EU environmental rules, if true, assume this is all related to climate change and preserving the environment.


Just the way you put your question down is quite leading in itself. Climate change shouldn't be a political issue at all. You can debate how you want to pay for it, who is going to invest etc. All equal or social weaker parts of society less, the one who actually pollutes etc.

You can suspect anything you like from the EU, but I suggest you do your own research. Let me put you on the right track: the EU is an organization that is mostly led by consenses, so almost each and every decision it makes is backed by the UK government. You make a distinction between the UK and the EU, it is artificial. All member states agreed to set goals to reduce their pollution - can you disagree with that? -, how each member states implements that is up to them, not the EU.

The House of Commons declared "an environment and climate emergency" on 19th of May of this year, a bipartisan move btw. The EU Parliament only got around to it on November 20th: 'Our house is on fire': EU parliament declares climate emergency. And the UK committed to, all on its own, the Paris climate agreement. So please don't frame this as a push from the EU, it isn't and it should not be. The ball is firmly in the court of the National Parlements and Governments to implement regulation to move forward.

As for your example, since you didn't provide any specifics, I haven't got a clue what you are talking about, in general, yes you need to take every aspect into account if you propose something, an integrated plan. The environment is important and climate adaptation is important, take both into account and you will see that some other solutions might come to mind. I am sure that the UK only has to call Delft University, Eindhoven University, Wageningen University, Royal Haskoning, DHV or one of the other consultancy firms in the Netherlands to make such a plan for you. There is a lot of expertise in water management in the Netherlands and I am sure we want to help you guys out, no worries, even if you treat us like shit and damaging our economy because of your stupid Brexit ideas.
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Dutchy
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:38 am

Dano1977 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Labour have pledged to plant 2 Billion trees in 20 years. Now if my maths is correct, this is over 273,000 trees per day?

Even if this is apparently achievable, you have to do more than plant trees to sort out climate change.


Was reading today that there is an existing government pledge to plant slightly less trees over a slightly longer period... so Labour's plan is just to boost it a bit.



That's 600 trees every minute, if my back of a napkin maths is correct.


Come on, an advanced nation like the UK, can beat Ethiopia at its own game right? They achieved 8.171 trees a second.
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Arion640
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

Was reading today that there is an existing government pledge to plant slightly less trees over a slightly longer period... so Labour's plan is just to boost it a bit.



That's 600 trees every minute, if my back of a napkin maths is correct.


Come on, an advanced nation like the UK, can beat Ethiopia at its own game right? They achieved 8.171 trees a second.


Plentiful supply of cheap Labour in Ethiopia. While the UK utilises it’s open spaces as nutritious, productive farmland.

Come on, I thought the Netherlands was the founder of international commerce, basic Economics and common knowledge dutchy!
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scbriml
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:58 am

Dano1977 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
Labour have pledged to plant 2 Billion trees in 20 years. Now if my maths is correct, this is over 273,000 trees per day?

Even if this is apparently achievable, you have to do more than plant trees to sort out climate change.


Was reading today that there is an existing government pledge to plant slightly less trees over a slightly longer period... so Labour's plan is just to boost it a bit.



That's 600 trees every minute, if my back of a napkin maths is correct.


I think you may need a new napkin. :wink2:

2 billion in 20 years = 100 million every year. That's already sounding like a fantasy.

100 million in a year = nearly 274,000 per day = over 11,400 per hour (if working 24 hours a day) = 190 trees planted every single minute of every single hour for 20 years.

So that's clearly much more doable than 600 per minute!

Some obvious questions arise:
    Where are we getting these trees from?
    Where are we going to plant them?
    Who's going to plant them?
    Who's going to pay for this?

This might well be the biggest pile of bullshit yet from any politician ever. :banghead:
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L410Turbolet
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:07 am

Dutchy wrote:
They achieved 8.171 trees a second.

Let's see in 5 or 10 years how much this was a serious effort or just a publicity stunt.
 
Arion640
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:25 am

scbriml wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:
SomebodyInTLS wrote:

Was reading today that there is an existing government pledge to plant slightly less trees over a slightly longer period... so Labour's plan is just to boost it a bit.



That's 600 trees every minute, if my back of a napkin maths is correct.


I think you may need a new napkin. :wink2:

2 billion in 20 years = 100 million every year. That's already sounding like a fantasy.

100 million in a year = nearly 274,000 per day = over 11,400 per hour (if working 24 hours a day) = 190 trees planted every single minute of every single hour for 20 years.

So that's clearly much more doable than 600 per minute!

Some obvious questions arise:
    Where are we getting these trees from?
    Where are we going to plant them?
    Who's going to plant them?
    Who's going to pay for this?

This might well be the biggest pile of bullshit yet from any politician ever. :banghead:


I think the area taken up was going to be nearly the size of wales too.
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Aesma
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:17 am

par13del wrote:
Grizzly410 wrote:
Thanks.
What a weird election system where the campaigner PM could win the election at national level and be ousted from parliament at the same time.

In the case of a non-republic form of government, the standard practice is that the leader of the party with the majority seats is the Prime Minister, he must be an elected member, if the party leader does not win his seat, the party get's to select who will be the PM. We may have some party "constitutions" (not the country) that would allow a leader to be a non-serving member of parliament, but as elections are held every 5 years, it would be a long time to essentially attempt to "pull the strings" from outside the house, probably also draw too much attention to how much the party actually runs the show versus the MP's being there to represent their constituents.
In a republic form of government, the post of president is usually voted on nationally therefore more of an individual versus party election.


This seems common in parliamentary democracies. What I find more surprising (and would argue is detrimental to good governing) is the fact all ministers must be MPs. You end up with truly awful and unqualified people in the cabinet, because the choice is too limited (Dominic Raab is a good example).

In France the PM has the same legislative role as the UK PM, with less executive powers (well, it's a bit complicated), he's often a National Assembly member, but this is not mandatory, anybody can be nominated Premier Ministre. Then (s)he will sit on the government bench, answer questions, etc. (not vote, obviously, but votes aren't conducted at the same time as government's questions anyway).

Dominique de Villepin, famous for his speech at the UN opposing the Iraq war, became Premier Ministre in 2005, having never stood in any election.
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Aesma
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:21 am

ltbewr wrote:
So, the election is held in December, that means maybe with the holiday breaks only 3 weeks to sort out the results, maybe arrange combinations of parties to have a majority, shift people around, deal with new MP's, choose the PM, and develop a Brexit plan, figure out how to deal with NI/Rep. of Ireland arrangements, pass necessary enacting laws, all by the end of January. That means another extension or a crash out Brexit with all its likely disastrous results.


No crash out as if the plan is signed as is, then you enter the transition period.

It's very likely that some laws enacting Brexit will still need to be voted on after "Brexit date". Including on the EU site.
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Aesma
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:24 am

Arion640 wrote:
Labour have pledged to plant 2 Billion trees in 20 years. Now if my maths is correct, this is over 273,000 trees per day?

Even if this is apparently achievable, you have to do more than plant trees to sort out climate change.


Yes and depending on how it's done it can even be bad for the environment. For example planting the same tree by the million, instead of various essences. Planting non native trees. Planting trees that will suck too much water. Trees that will destroy the soil and release its CO2 content. Trees that will cause massive forest fires. The list goes on.
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par13del
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:45 am

Dutchy wrote:
You can suspect anything you like from the EU, but I suggest you do your own research. Let me put you on the right track: the EU is an organization that is mostly led by consenses, so almost each and every decision it makes is backed by the UK government. You make a distinction between the UK and the EU, it is artificial. All member states agreed to set goals to reduce their pollution - can you disagree with that? -, how each member states implements that is up to them, not the EU.

Hence the reason why the climate change debate is not more important than the Brexit election presently taking place, that was your initial point.
The sole reason why the UK is having another election making it 2 in less than 5 years is because of Brexit, so in my opinion, a debate on climate change during a 4 to 6 week campaign for a general election based on Brexit is not more important.
We can disagree with the Tories and their support of Brexit, we can do the same on Brexit in general, there are enough pros and cons based on everyday items and technical ones that does not require throwing participation in a climate change debate by one party as a significant sign that they do not care about the environment, in everything there are priorities.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:24 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Dano1977 wrote:


That's 600 trees every minute, if my back of a napkin maths is correct.


Come on, an advanced nation like the UK, can beat Ethiopia at its own game right? They achieved 8.171 trees a second.


Plentiful supply of cheap Labour in Ethiopia. While the UK utilises it’s open spaces as nutritious, productive farmland.

Come on, I thought the Netherlands was the founder of international commerce, basic Economics and common knowledge dutchy!


Ah, basic economics is so yesterday, Arion, but you know that right ;-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:06 pm

par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You can suspect anything you like from the EU, but I suggest you do your own research. Let me put you on the right track: the EU is an organization that is mostly led by consenses, so almost each and every decision it makes is backed by the UK government. You make a distinction between the UK and the EU, it is artificial. All member states agreed to set goals to reduce their pollution - can you disagree with that? -, how each member states implements that is up to them, not the EU.


Hence the reason why the climate change debate is not more important than the Brexit election presently taking place, that was your initial point.


No, I disagree with you. The environment should be the primary concern in all political decisions. If not addressed, it will have much more dire consequences then Brexit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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par13del
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:16 pm

Dutchy wrote:
par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
You can suspect anything you like from the EU, but I suggest you do your own research. Let me put you on the right track: the EU is an organization that is mostly led by consenses, so almost each and every decision it makes is backed by the UK government. You make a distinction between the UK and the EU, it is artificial. All member states agreed to set goals to reduce their pollution - can you disagree with that? -, how each member states implements that is up to them, not the EU.


Hence the reason why the climate change debate is not more important than the Brexit election presently taking place, that was your initial point.


No, I disagree with you. The environment should be the primary concern in all political decisions. If not addressed, it will have much more dire consequences then Brexit.

Which is fine, however, the point being addressed was your thought that the climate change debate was more important than Brexit, I suspect the majority in the UK will hold a different view which I also suspect for the majority has nothing to do with whether they think climate change is important, at present, their priorities are different.
 
Bongodog49
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:35 am

Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:19 pm

A general comment on the tree planting issue. Over the years succesive governments and their agencies have promoted tree planting schemes, local councils usually then get offered free trees "apply here for your 100 free trees delivered to your door" Many who accept the offer are duly disapppointed, what you receive are whips , single stems approx 300mm high. The receiving local council then finds that the 100 free trees are worth about £30 and need £300 in tree guards and planting costs, plus their mortality rate will be about 70% if you are lucky.

Only last week the newspapers reported on a council mowing a field and destroying 600 trees that were planted a frew years back, the councils excuse was that they were so small that they were invisible amongst the grass and weeds. I can quite believe their reason.

As a result of this our parish council ignores these schemes and purchases fewer but better trees from a local grower.


if the trees being talked about are as described above which i'm sure they will be, it doesn't really matter if anyone is promising 1 milliom, 100 million, 1 billion of whatever
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:07 pm

par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
par13del wrote:

Hence the reason why the climate change debate is not more important than the Brexit election presently taking place, that was your initial point.


No, I disagree with you. The environment should be the primary concern in all political decisions. If not addressed, it will have much more dire consequences then Brexit.

Which is fine, however, the point being addressed was your thought that the climate change debate was more important than Brexit, I suspect the majority in the UK will hold a different view which I also suspect for the majority has nothing to do with whether they think climate change is important, at present, their priorities are different.


Which is fine, everyone is entitle to their own opinions and I expressed mine and the reason why.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jetty
Posts: 1054
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: UK General Election 2019

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:03 pm

par13del wrote:
In the case of a non-republic form of government, the standard practice is that the leader of the party with the majority seats is the Prime Minister, he must be an elected member, if the party leader does not win his seat, the party get's to select who will be the PM.

I doubt this. This might be common in many countries, but not mandatory by law. The majority must support the Prime Minister, but he/she doesn't need to be a member of parliament in The Netherlands and Germany i.e.

The UK has a very outlandish political system being the only country with a multi-party first past the post single-member constituency legislature where the prime-minister has to be a member of parliament. Many former colonies improved on the British system, i.e. Australia with instant-runoff voting. Given recent history I'd say the British system isn't very effective or constructive. :lol:
 
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Aesma
Posts: 12012
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: UK General Election 2019

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:20 am

Bongodog49 wrote:
A general comment on the tree planting issue. Over the years succesive governments and their agencies have promoted tree planting schemes, local councils usually then get offered free trees "apply here for your 100 free trees delivered to your door" Many who accept the offer are duly disapppointed, what you receive are whips , single stems approx 300mm high. The receiving local council then finds that the 100 free trees are worth about £30 and need £300 in tree guards and planting costs, plus their mortality rate will be about 70% if you are lucky.

Only last week the newspapers reported on a council mowing a field and destroying 600 trees that were planted a frew years back, the councils excuse was that they were so small that they were invisible amongst the grass and weeds. I can quite believe their reason.

As a result of this our parish council ignores these schemes and purchases fewer but better trees from a local grower.

if the trees being talked about are as described above which i'm sure they will be, it doesn't really matter if anyone is promising 1 milliom, 100 million, 1 billion of whatever


Interesting.

I would be more interested if they promised to plant forests, or grow forests back. Planting trees like they're corn doesn't work.

BTW, in France where there are no such schemes that I'm aware of, and it's definitely not talked about during elections, there are more and more trees, and forests are growing, they have been for decades, simply because a bit less land is farmed (mountainous land mainly), and a lot less wood is cut (in fact, the forests are underused). The low point in French forests was a century ago. Then of course we have Guyane which is one continuous piece of Amazonian forest.

I looked it up and it was similar for the UK, except that a century ago you had almost wiped out your forests ! That's why they are not coming back as quickly.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
SueD
Posts: 72
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:01 pm

UK well English politics and democracy and the liberal economic model is in total disarray.

Labour a party founded on equally and tolerance scarred by Antisemitism accusations (whilst the far right is quietly looking on far more sinisterly)- Corbyns so called neutrality on prime issues is shockingly naive (well intentioned or otherwise)


Conservative the natural home of liberal market driven economics and in many ways the inspiration for the single market . Now so split on those genuinely beneficial things delivered to all citizens including freedom of movement .
Oh and a silently malingering core of Islamaphobia and incidental racism.

Only the liberals appear to have anything of a clear stance .

As for Farige a loonie of the highest order and a dangerous one especially for the lower classes he deliberately encourages.
His views on domestic issues social welfare the NHS and indeed immigrants are pretty terrifying imho.
Truly more Anti Semitic !

The country is in a schism likened only to the reformation imho

Also split city and rurally even worse.
The large metropolitan areas continue to favour Remaining whilst the rural areas Leave .

Yet we have a general election upon us and frankly the real noise which should on how the UK delivers public services , defence , security, implements tax and spending , National infrastructure and racism is silenced !

In the words of a News night guest terrified BUT NOT FOR HIS REASONS

I am a life long voter never missed a General Election since my 18th , continue to have views and aspirations for a fairer and more inclusive society for ALL yet right now none of the parties show me any confidence that they have the tools people or indeed virtues to come even close .

THE B word is a calamity, that said those northern eastern English and South Wales towns and villages (many that are actually beneficiaries of EU money) quarms are more the UK centralist political system of decades and are structurally are hard indeed impossible to resolve anytime soon. Exiting the largest economic markets just to reduce a few tens of thousands of fellow Europeans having the ability to work (spend and pay taxes) here can only make things a magnitude worse for many years ahead imho.

Think I’ll lie down in a darkened room for while.

Still be using my franchise though
 
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seemyseems
Posts: 443
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:35 am

I sent my postal vote the other day. This election will be interesting, a lot of my friends have started to talk about it on social media. And my friends aren’t political!! But it is good that they’re registering and turning out to vote :thumbsup:
seemyseems in ATL
 
SueD
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:33 am

seemyseems wrote:
I sent my postal vote the other day. This election will be interesting, a lot of my friends have started to talk about it on social media. And my friends aren’t political!! But it is good that they’re registering and turning out to vote :thumbsup:


Everybody has political opinions its a human social condition just many have no idea how they use those thoughts .

Concepts can quite etherial, oh and the manifesto isn’t a shopping list just a framework of aspirations and legislative priorities.
 
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par13del
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:19 pm

SueD wrote:
Exiting the largest economic markets just to reduce a few tens of thousands of fellow Europeans having the ability to work (spend and pay taxes) here can only make things a magnitude worse for many years ahead imho.

Maybe that is the whole problem, the folk in the cities see the EU and Brexit with such clarity yet those in the rural areas who as you say are the beneficiaries of the EU do not have the same clarity.
Problem is that as long as the people never had a vote on the issue, no one really cared too much how distorted their view. Post 2016, rather than a re-education campaign as in other countries when votes went against the EU, the UK decided to abandon tried and true and reinvent the wheel, in some cases, thrashing the parliamentary system in the process.
 
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Aesma
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:03 pm

I watch Channel 4 youtube channel on a regular basis, the political videos. I notice that very often, Tories avoid coming on the channel, especially ministers.

They pulled a stunt with the melting blocks at the climate change debate, a fair stunt in my opinion, just like Boris pulled a stunt by not attending. You don't get to say that this is the most important issue of our time and dodge a debate on it without any consequence.

As a result, BoJo talked about shutting down the channel !

How is that going down in the UK ?

I thought BoJo was Trump lite, and smarter, but I'm starting to wonder if he will not be much worse.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
SueD
Posts: 72
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:42 pm

Aesma BoJo thinks he has scored a home run.

He is pretty hopeless against powerful and well researched interviewers so his support team are very scared of unscripted performances.

We also have a rather sinister Dominic Cummings in the background possibly breaking the pre-election purdah rule - A self serving creep of a man.. Makes Alastair Campbell look like saint

Right now the equally inept Corbyn is driving his own party faithful to seriously question their loyalties - Me included
 
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Aesma
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:59 pm

If you are a remainer or if you are center or left-wing, you shouldn't fear Corbyn, there is no chance of him becoming PM. BoJo getting another hung parliament, however, is quite possible.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
SueD
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: UK General Election 2019

Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:13 pm

Aesma wrote:
If you are a remainer or if you are center or left-wing, you shouldn't fear Corbyn, there is no chance of him becoming PM. BoJo getting another hung parliament, however, is quite possible.


Yeah seems so
 
Bostrom
Posts: 851
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:06 pm

Jetty wrote:
par13del wrote:
In the case of a non-republic form of government, the standard practice is that the leader of the party with the majority seats is the Prime Minister, he must be an elected member, if the party leader does not win his seat, the party get's to select who will be the PM.

I doubt this. This might be common in many countries, but not mandatory by law. The majority must support the Prime Minister, but he/she doesn't need to be a member of parliament in The Netherlands and Germany i.e.


Or in the case of Sweden, the PM can not be an MP. Even if most PMs have been before they are elected, but the moment they are elected they automatically leave their job as MP.

And a fact: In Sweden you do not need the majority of the parliament to support you to become prime minister, you only need more yes-votes than no-votes.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: UK General Election 2019

Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:07 am

Bostrom wrote:
Jetty wrote:
par13del wrote:
In the case of a non-republic form of government, the standard practice is that the leader of the party with the majority seats is the Prime Minister, he must be an elected member, if the party leader does not win his seat, the party get's to select who will be the PM.

I doubt this. This might be common in many countries, but not mandatory by law. The majority must support the Prime Minister, but he/she doesn't need to be a member of parliament in The Netherlands and Germany i.e.


Or in the case of Sweden, the PM can not be an MP. Even if most PMs have been before they are elected, but the moment they are elected they automatically leave their job as MP.

And a fact: In Sweden you do not need the majority of the parliament to support you to become prime minister, you only need more yes-votes than no-votes.


Basically the same in the Netherlands. Although I don't know of any cases that the incoming Prime Minister wasn't elected in Parliament first, it isn't mandatory. Many cabinet members haven't got a track record in Parliament. There is a good reason for cabinet members, very much the PM included, not being in Parliament at the same time. Parliament should be free to observe the deeds of cabinet members. Parliament is the highest authority in a democracy, not a cabinet.

If there is a minority government, it can be voted down at any time. Nowadays the Dutch government parties have 75 of the 150 seats in Parliament, they have lost their majority of one. But this isn't seen as a problem - as of yet - because they had lost their majority in the first chamber anyway, so they need a larger consenses in the Second chamber to get a law past in both chambers. Lot less interesting politics, but a lot more effective compared to the Uk.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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