Ken777
Topic Author
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I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:08 am

1966 was the first time that I was able to visit Hong Kong for 5 days. It was my first West Pac deployment in the Navy and the first R&R visit. After that I had two more visits in the navy and have lost count of the number of business trip stops after that. Every visit through the years has been a pleasure because Hong Kong was one of the most exciting cities in the world.

Things are so horribly different these days. BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50384360) has an article: "Rule of law on 'brink of collapse', police say". There is a video covering a range of protest activities, including the police shooting a young protestor and a motorcycle cop driving through a group of protesters.

You cannot remember the years of British Law and the Hopes of the population when the UK handed Hong Kong back to China without being saddened. We can only hope that issues settle down and that China remembers the wealth that Hong Kong has traditionally returned to their government. Loss of Hong Kong as an important international commercial center would result in a heavy cost to China.
 
seat64k
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:00 am

It would help if BBC don't just parrot the polcie press release and actually did some journalism. There's so much wrong with this article:

Earlier in the day, around 1,000 protesters rallied in central Hong Kong during the lunch hour blocking roads

Protesters, wearing office clothes, were seen chanting: "Fight for freedom, stand with Hong Kong!


These were employees in the Central district, not some roaming band of protesters. And it was waaay more than 1000.

The demonstrations come just a day after the territory saw a marked escalation in violence, with police shooting one activist in the torso.


Note, the policeman drew his gun in response to being heckled.

The protests started in June against a now-withdrawn plan to allow extradition to mainland China


It started in March. It only gained international media attention in June when the numberes had swelled to over a milllion.

On Tuesday afternoon, police spokesman Kong Wing-cheung hit out at the protesters, saying they had "countless examples of rioters using random and indiscriminate violence against innocent" people.


That's rich, given that the protests are only still ongoing because of random and indsicriminate violence by police towards peaceful protestors, bystanders, pedestirans, commuters, first aiders, and reporters.

"Hong Kong's rule of law has been pushed to the brink of total collapse as masked rioters recklessly escalate their violence under the hope that they can get away with it,"/

How do they say this with a straight face?

Both the protester and the pro-Beijing supporter remain in hospital, with the latter in a critical condition."

It's the other way around. The protestor (who was shot) is in critical condition, and it's looking grim. The bullet is stuck in his spine, and if he survives, he will likely be paralised. The guy who was set on fire walked away from the scene mostly unscathed. The liquid was clear, so likely some sort of alcohol, and it burned off in a seconds. It most certainly was not petrol.


Clashes erupted at the Chinese University of Hong Kong, with police firing tear gas to disperse students, while at City University there was a standoff between students and riot police which continued into the evening.


Police fired teargas at 7 in the morning into university residences. And they're surprised people are pushing back? And disperse where? Into the street? Where the police declare their presence and unlawful assembly and fire some more teargas at them?

This is a further escalation of an old trick. Protest gets permission to gather at, say Tamar park. Permission expires at 23:00. At 22:00 police close nearby MTR stations. At 23:00, protestors leave the park and head to the MTR, only to end up on the road because there's nowhere else to go. Police declare this an unlawful assembly, and proceed to fire teargas, rubber bullets and beanbags, and beat the living daylights out of anyone they can get their hands on. And they're suprised that violence is escalating?

All of this could have been presented if government took the issue of police miscondunct seriously at the start.
 
mdavies06
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Wed Nov 13, 2019 2:21 pm

To the second poster and not OP, we can discuss all the points you raised above til the end of time and no I won't individually reply to the points you raised because obviously even you know you have presented some of them partially. Speaking of the protesters and their supporters in general, I think it pays to look deeper at some of the issues and flashpoints, the root causes and the subsequent actions both by the protesters and their opponents. People in Hong Kong love to second guess the actions and statements made by the government but really it is coming to the point where people gave up judging with common sense on every action and give in to lies and partial statements put out by the protester groups on telegram. I know that people there hate the Chinese government, China and Chinese resolutely and base their life outlook on this (and no I am not Chinese government defender, quite the opposite in fact), but one thing it has done right is to recognise that freedom of speech doesn't mean unlimited freedom to spread lies online that smears the authorities as well as other Hong Kong citizens not supportive of the protesters' causes. There are many social reasons why there should be a reasonable limit to fake news online but it is too late now. These terrorist protesters would rather go to jail or face death then seeing even sensible legislation passed. And no, to clarify I actually mean any legislation in any areas, not the extradition bill which I do oppose.

Specifically about the local police force, obviously they have made mistakes and there has been a few incidents of lapses and complacency. The public of course is right to demand scrutiny on their actions in dealing with protesters and the government should recognise that. However, the protesters themselves are no saints either and through the combination of smear campaign, dirty tricks and terrorist looting, they are now putting Hong Kong citizens at significant risk.
 
seat64k
Posts: 538
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:01 am

mdavies06 wrote:
I know that people there hate the Chinese government, China and Chinese resolutely and base their life outlook on this (and no I am not Chinese government defender, quite the opposite in fact), but one thing it has done right is to recognise that freedom of speech doesn't mean unlimited freedom to spread lies online that smears the authorities as well as other Hong Kong citizens not supportive of the protesters' causes.


What a preposterous thing to say about a goverment that shamelessly uses it's state media to spread lies online, and goes to unparallelled lengths to sensor any mention about its own misconduct.

These terrorist protesters would rather go to jail or face death then seeing even sensible legislation passed. And no, to clarify I actually mean any legislation in any areas, not the extradition bill which I do oppose.

Specifically about the local police force, obviously they have made mistakes and there has been a few incidents of lapses and complacency. The public of course is right to demand scrutiny on their actions in dealing with protesters and the government should recognise that. However, the protesters themselves are no saints either and through the combination of smear campaign, dirty tricks and terrorist looting, they are now putting Hong Kong citizens at significant risk.


"These terrorist protestors" protested peacefully and lawfully for months on end. They were ignored. Carrie Lam not only refused to engage in dialog over the content of the bill, she claimed in a press release that people protesting the bill just don't understand it. It's almost like she doesn't know that there's a lot of legal professionals in Hong Kong, and that they were among the first to protest the bill.

Besides that, what do you suggest as a next step after peaceful protest and industrial action is answered by teargas and arbitrary arrests? When the unelected authoritarian government not only ignores the issue and make it clear they're not interested in addressing it? Ask pretty pretty please?
 
Max Q
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:28 am

Pretty sad,

I spent most of my childhood in HK, lived there from 1972 - 1981, it was to me the most exciting place in the world and I still miss it

I sympathize with the protesters but they’re chasing a dream that will never happen

It could end really badly
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mdavies06
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:32 pm

If this is your impression about Chinese state media, then please go ahead and continue with that view. I do not intend to change anyone's view. I will encourage you to read more of how the Chinese media system works but if you don't want to I won't force you. Again, their media I do consider as extreme leftist on the whole and in fact has blood in their hands in some extreme areas, but my point in my original post I consider still stands which actually I originally had in mind more relating to social media than state media. To add, nowadays we are not simply talking about state media. We need to consider all forms of communication channels because the protesters have a large number of media channels, websites and microblogs on their side. Credibility on a lot of these are questionable but it certainly get their messages across.

These protesters have been engaging in borderline terrorist activities since July and August. But if you consider them peaceful, again we will have to agree to disagree. The only difference now is there are more of them destroying more basic utilties of Hong Kong now than back in the summer. Teargas is used worldwide to disperse crowd and apart from this method what sort of method would you propose to disperse a crowd that are blocking roads and railways? What gave them the civil right to burn Christmas tree, smashing shops like Starbucks in malls owned by non-China companies? What does firms like Xiaomi do that is hampering Hong Kong that they would like to see stopped? And if anyone in that city is reading this now I encourage them to read this fast because some protesters are making plans to target local electricity stations, as per their own blogs. To add, these people want themselves pardoned - this is one of their core demands to the local government. Arbitrary arrests - please present some cases and we can discuss them over. Very few government worldwide sees their head of state voted directly by universal suffrage method and to date these protesters have yet to present in details concretely what type of electorial system are they proposing and why is it superior and practical. There is already a democratic parliamentary system in Hong Kong which acts as a constrain to the government, and if someone vote, the vote does get counted.
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 200
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:09 pm

Ken777 wrote:
1966 was the first time that I was able to visit Hong Kong for 5 days. It was my first West Pac deployment in the Navy and the first R&R visit. After that I had two more visits in the navy and have lost count of the number of business trip stops after that. Every visit through the years has been a pleasure because Hong Kong was one of the most exciting cities in the world.

Things are so horribly different these days. BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50384360) has an article: "Rule of law on 'brink of collapse', police say". There is a video covering a range of protest activities, including the police shooting a young protestor and a motorcycle cop driving through a group of protesters.

You cannot remember the years of British Law and the Hopes of the population when the UK handed Hong Kong back to China without being saddened. We can only hope that issues settle down and that China remembers the wealth that Hong Kong has traditionally returned to their government. Loss of Hong Kong as an important international commercial center would result in a heavy cost to China.


Are you sure you’re not being blinded by nostalgia? I’ve been to Hong Kong three times myself, starting in 2012, so relatively recently for all of my trips.

I think it’s easy to judge the progress of another country you visit but are not forced to deal with day in and day out. My first trip to the Czech Republic / Prague was right after the wall fell in the early 90s, and I’ve been there a dozen or more times since. I caught myself being nostalgic about how quiet, quaint, and secret Czech was back then. By comparison today there are electronic signs everywhere, drunken Brits and Irish with stag and hen parties, street prostitution and homeless, and tacky, garish, trinket shops everywhere, not to mention awful western fast food. But that’s me wanting to inflict my values on a people who have embraced the west and for all the negativity that one can find, the average Czech is far, far, far, better off these days.

I would posit to say Hong Kong is similar, no?
 
Cerecl
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:27 pm

Image

Current front page of Sydney Morning Herald. I wonder if the author actually realise what the texts mean. It is about as vile to Chinese as swastika to Jews. No matter how strong the protesters' grief is, it doesn't give them the right to promote hatred and racism. Ironically, the great-grandparents and grandparents of those who hid behind the barrier would have been called exactly that when HK was occupied during WWII.

Absolutely disgusting and sickening.
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ltbewr
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:47 pm

The PRC is trying to accelerate their full control of HK instead of waiting until 2048. The CP leadership of the PRC want control of the money, economy, access to bribes, steal property, end respect of HK's British influenced rule of contract law and human rights, so need to repress any challenges to quicken the takeover.

While the protests in HK earlier this year were relatively peaceful, they have turned to violence and outright offence by any standards due to fear of the PRC. It is causing chaos in the streets and economy, setting up the PRC to go in with massive police actions to reach their goals and bring back peace. I don't think this is going to end well but for the PRC leadership.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:31 pm

ltbewr wrote:
The PRC is trying to accelerate their full control of HK instead of waiting until 2048. The CP leadership of the PRC want control of the money, economy, access to bribes, steal property, end respect of HK's British influenced rule of contract law and human rights, so need to repress any challenges to quicken the takeover.

While the protests in HK earlier this year were relatively peaceful, they have turned to violence and outright offence by any standards due to fear of the PRC. It is causing chaos in the streets and economy, setting up the PRC to go in with massive police actions to reach their goals and bring back peace. I don't think this is going to end well but for the PRC leadership.


I feel similar regarding your last statement regarding this going well only for PRC’s leadership. While I completely side with the protesters, I just can’t imagine the mainland finding even an amicable solution.

I am by far no China expert, but I get the feeling that saving face will be more important than what is actually best for both sides. In short, I think eventually they’ll just massacre the protesters and will just take HK long before 2047.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:33 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Image

Current front page of Sydney Morning Herald. I wonder if the author actually realise what the texts mean. It is about as vile to Chinese as swastika to Jews. No matter how strong the protesters' grief is, it doesn't give them the right to promote hatred and racism. Ironically, the great-grandparents and grandparents of those who hid behind the barrier would have been called exactly that when HK was occupied during WWII.

Absolutely disgusting and sickening.


What does the text say? I don’t speak or write in any Chinese and I’m curious about these signs now.

Thanks!
 
Ken777
Topic Author
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 14, 2019 8:39 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
Are you sure you’re not being blinded by nostalgia? I’ve been to Hong Kong three times myself, starting in 2012, so relatively recently for all of my trips.


Yes and no. No in that I'm somewhat realistic about the imperfections of HK, as well as other large cities. The Susie Wong District was active on my '66 deployment and more than a few sailors were customers. My preference was to get a room at the Hong Kong Hilton where US military personnel got very inexpensive rooms - like $25 a night. What a glorious stay that was. The view of the Harbor was fantastic and being able to soak in a hot bath a few times a day (after months of Navy Shower) was almost as impressive. The Hilton is gone - I understand that it was sold for a price that far exceeded any long term profits it could have made. I still have a key fob and a brass ashtray from there.

I've always understood that exciting large cities also have their problem areas. Poverty and crime take the lead of problem, or lack of health care for the poor. At the same time large cities can be exciting and dynamic. That's how Hong Kong has been for me, just like Sydney, London, Paris, San Francisco, Boston and New York City.

BTW, when it comes to cities around the world I love nostalgia because it means I've been to those places, normally with my wife. That's one way how life can be good!
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:17 pm

I was in HK last week and didn't notice all the graffiti and fliers (compared to living in large US cities and seeing other big cities in the world) until suddenly it hit me that those aren't supposed to be there. I visited HK University and it was covered in paint and fliers, something like I have never seen on an American college campus where the worst of the graffiti is Sharpie on a bathroom stall or chalk on concrete. And the airport line only ran from HK station to the airport with no stops in between, but I managed to take it from airport to Kowloon when I arrived. And on Halloween night there were riot cops everywhere waiting to see if anything was going to happen. It's a good thing I was still tired 2 days later after a 15 hr flight because I was on HK island where all the nightlife is and decided to turn in early because a westerner got arrested and tear gas was used. Fast forward a week and I'm having a beer with an Aussie guy and he's showing me a video of a pro-Beijing guy arguing with pro-democracy people and the Beijing guy got sprayed with lighter fluid and lit on fire! He also showed me the video of the cop gut shooting another dude. These were apparently a couple days old when he showed me.

But I'm happy I went. I can say I saw Hong Kong before the PRC goes Tiananmen on it.
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stl07
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:59 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
I was in HK last week and didn't notice all the graffiti and fliers (compared to living in large US cities and seeing other big cities in the world) until suddenly it hit me that those aren't supposed to be there. I visited HK University and it was covered in paint and fliers, something like I have never seen on an American college campus where the worst of the graffiti is Sharpie on a bathroom stall or chalk on concrete. And the airport line only ran from HK station to the airport with no stops in between, but I managed to take it from airport to Kowloon when I arrived. And on Halloween night there were riot cops everywhere waiting to see if anything was going to happen. It's a good thing I was still tired 2 days later after a 15 hr flight because I was on HK island where all the nightlife is and decided to turn in early because a westerner got arrested and tear gas was used. Fast forward a week and I'm having a beer with an Aussie guy and he's showing me a video of a pro-Beijing guy arguing with pro-democracy people and the Beijing guy got sprayed with lighter fluid and lit on fire! He also showed me the video of the cop gut shooting another dude. These were apparently a couple days old when he showed me.

But I'm happy I went. I can say I saw Hong Kong before the PRC goes Tiananmen on it.

You bring up an interesting point. A lot of airlines are cancelling flights because people are cancelling their vacations. But the thing is, now may be the last time to ever visit Hong Kong before it becomes another city in China
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speedbird52
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 15, 2019 4:18 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
Cerecl wrote:
Image

Current front page of Sydney Morning Herald. I wonder if the author actually realise what the texts mean. It is about as vile to Chinese as swastika to Jews. No matter how strong the protesters' grief is, it doesn't give them the right to promote hatred and racism. Ironically, the great-grandparents and grandparents of those who hid behind the barrier would have been called exactly that when HK was occupied during WWII.

Absolutely disgusting and sickening.


What does the text say? I don’t speak or write in any Chinese and I’m curious about these signs now.

Thanks!

Seconded here
 
melpax
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 15, 2019 12:57 pm

Australian Universities have now asked their students on exchange in HK to return home....

https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/au ... 53b5g.html
Essendon - Whatever it takes......
 
Cerecl
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:13 pm

SL1200MK2 wrote:
What does the text say? I don’t speak or write in any Chinese and I’m curious about these signs now.
Thanks!

The photo captured what appeared to be part of a sentence (if there was a sentence). It translates to "Be suspicious of Chinese dogs and Cockroach Ping (referring to Xi Jinping the Chinese President)". Instead of a neutral term for Chinese, what was written here (fourth and fifth character from left) is a phonetic translation of China which is extremely offensive/derogatory. Not going to go into too much detail but it is like referring to African-Americans as "[email protected]$ing N*%ger" if not worse. While it can be neutral or even endearing for African-Americans to use the N-word to refer to each other, no self-respecting Chinese would even dream of uttering this word.
Last edited by Cerecl on Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DTVG
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:21 pm

Oh well, these kind of things happen continuously in history. Probably off to some patriotic education, worst case to some re-education camp for the protestors, some loyalists installed in top gov positions and the party (not the party) can go on for a few years more...
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:24 pm

Cerecl wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
What does the text say? I don’t speak or write in any Chinese and I’m curious about these signs now.
Thanks!

The photo captured what appeared to be part of a sentence (if there was a sentence). It translates to "Be suspicious of Chinese dogs and Cockroach Ping (referring to Xi Jinping the Chinese President)". Instead of a neutral term for Chinese, what was written here (fourth and fifth character from left) is a phonetic translation of China which is extremely offensive/derogatory. Not going to go into too much detail but it is like referring to African-Americans as "[email protected]$ing N*%ger" if not worse. While it can be neutral or even endearing for African-Americans to use the N-word to refer to each other, no self-respecting Chinese would even dream of uttering this word.


Thank you for that. Because I’d like to learn more about what you understandably won’t mention, is there a phonetic way that I can search for this?

Thanks again.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:47 pm

I really surprises me that China has not directly intervened yet.
 
melpax
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:12 am

Soldiers out on the streets helping to clean up......

https://twitter.com/rthk_enews/status/1 ... 0066284545
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Bostrom
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:33 am

melpax wrote:
Australian Universities have now asked their students on exchange in HK to return home....

https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/au ... 53b5g.html


Swedish universities did the same a couple of days ago.
 
seat64k
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:37 pm

mdavies06 wrote:
If this is your impression about Chinese state media, then please go ahead and continue with that view. I do not intend to change anyone's view. I will encourage you to read more of how the Chinese media system works but if you don't want to I won't force you.


I can read Chinese. Chinese state media - Xingua, etc - described the protestors as radical and rioters long before there was any hint violence. The point of my post was to lament the lazy work by the BBC, and organisation who has a mandate to provide balanced and politically neutral reporting. What they privided in that article makes it look like they base their entire view on press releases from the police. And unless you'be been living under a rock (or anywhere outside of Hong Kong), you'll be well aware that the police press releases have been filled with lies, ommissions and obscurantism.

mdavies06 wrote:
These protesters have been engaging in borderline terrorist activities since July and August. But if you consider them peaceful


You're setting up a strawman. I said "random and indsicriminate violence by police towards peaceful protestors, bystanders, pedestirans, commuters, first aiders, and reporters. " - that does not imply that there aren't protestors who engage in violence.

mdavies06 wrote:
Teargas is used worldwide to disperse crowd and apart from this method what sort of method would you propose to disperse a crowd that are blocking roads and railways?


If your aim was actually to desperse the crowd, I'd be onboard. When you've sealed off any possible route of exit from a legal protest that - up until that point was completely peaceful - it's clear that the objective is intimidation, not crowd dispersal.

mdavies06 wrote:
What gave them the civil right to burn Christmas tree, smashing shops like Starbucks in malls owned by non-China companies? What does firms like Xiaomi do that is hampering Hong Kong that they would like to see stopped?


If you don't know why these stores are targeted, you don't really understand what's going on.

mdavies06 wrote:
Arbitrary arrests - please present some cases and we can discuss them over.


I know people who have been arrested for "rioting". None of them were "rioting" or even taking part in a protest. All of them were beaten. Some sustained permanent injuries. Until about a month ago, I lived right in the middle of one of the hot spots. I got teargassed more times than I care to count. I withnessed the police's conduct multiple times. I saw them attack press. I saw them attack medics. I saw them fire teargas into a street that had no one but shoppers and commuters.

mdavies06 wrote:
There is already a democratic parliamentary system in Hong Kong which acts as a constrain to the government, and if someone vote, the vote does get counted.


You can't be serious? The elections are for only half the seats in the LegCo (the other half being defacto pro-Beijing). That means that unless the pro-democratic parties win all 35 seats, the pro-Beijing camp wil *always* have a majority. Hence the term "safe majority" - "safe" because the CE and pro-BJ camp can safely ignore the oppoisiton.
 
maint123
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:16 am

I got caught up in the protests a few months back on my way to victorias peak.
My observations -
The protestors were really young. Kids most of them. With a lot of girls actively involved.
Where I was, bus station near the port area, the protestors were just sitting and the police decided to tear gas them and a stampede type situation started. These were early days, I am talking about July. My first taste of tear gas.
Coming from a relatively free country, I can identify with the youngsters as no one wants to be picked up and sent to China for a tweet or social media post, like happened to the book store guy. Their is a near 100 % conviction rate for the accused in China I believe.
With more than 7000 people now arrested, I don't see a future for HK in China. The HKers are not brain washed to worship China at all costs. Sentiment is everything, like in religion or race. The best evidence can't sway their minds and China in any case won't try to win hearts and minds. They believe in the power flows from the barrel of the gun.
The British are being their normal shopkeeper selves. BBC knows which side their bread is buttered(financially). So you won't see their human rights side emerge. Too many British businesses and expats are invested in HK. And it's not new. You will find bbc having very strident criticizm for democracies but they are pretty muted on China or the Middle East states. Money talks and bbc is after all a public broadcaster.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:28 am

The UK should never have given up control.
 
bennett123
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:16 am

Not sure that it was an option, despite comments from Chris Patten at the time.
 
Cerecl
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:44 am

maint123 wrote:
With more than 7000 people now arrested, I don't see a future for HK in China. The HKers are not brain washed to worship China at all costs. Sentiment is everything, like in religion or race. The best evidence can't sway their minds and China in any case won't try to win hearts and minds. They believe in the power flows from the barrel of the gun.


Not specifically targeting you, maint123, but your post is a perfect example of quite a few stereotypes.

Hong Kong became what it is today because of its link/relationship with China. I am not taking away from the hard work/ingenuity of HK people but if HK is say 250km south of where it is, it would take a very different path of development. No matter if one likes it or not, the fate of Hong Kong is intricately linked to the fate of China. HK's future is in China, not US, not UK, not Madagascar, China. Even Chris Patten, the Briton PRC government loves to hate recognises this. HK's mission ought to be capitalising on its unique position and maximises its benefit/gain from a China that is creating unprecedented wealth. Daydreaming is more realistic than a HK that completely separates itself from China.

I cringe at the word "brainwash" because it implies, whether intentionally or unintentionally, that Chinese people are stupid and easily manipulated. They are not. Every emperor, king, duke, marquis etc over the past 5000 years had been trying to convince the people that they were the best, the legitimate, the only one. Did not stop people rising up when they found that their lives were horrible. This is no different at present. The Chinese government right now is probably more worried about the soaring price of pork in China than HK Polytechnic University burning down. It is a popular but completely wrong idea that the politics is an one way street in China. You can be sure Xi Jinping is more clued in about what a middle class family in a third tier Chinese city want in their life than say Donald Trump about a similar family in the US.

I don't know how one proposes China winning "hearts and minds" in HK. It is certainly not going to cede control of HK government and legislature. You just need to look at what happened in Catalonia to realise that no central government will tolerate separatism. HK does not pay any tax to the PRC government (In comparison, Shanghai's contribution in tax alone is ~US$100 billion annually). Multiple concessions and sacrifices affecting mainland were made for the benefit of HK. HK is undoubtedly important to China, but it is not irreplaceable. At some stage, people will start asking if HK is a net positive asset.

"Power flows from the barrel of the gun" was made famous by Mao in the 1920s. Almost 100 years have passed since then and exactly 30 years have passed since 1989. The present leadership in PRC is much more sophisticated than their predecessors. Expecting them to make the same decision in a completely different setting is naive at best.
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maint123
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:57 pm

Cerecl wrote:
maint123 wrote:
With more than 7000 people now arrested, I don't see a future for HK in China. The HKers are not brain washed to worship China at all costs. Sentiment is everything, like in religion or race. The best evidence can't sway their minds and China in any case won't try to win hearts and minds. They believe in the power flows from the barrel of the gun.


Not specifically targeting you, maint123, but your post is a perfect example of quite a few stereotypes.

Hong Kong became what it is today because of its link/relationship with China. I am not taking away from the hard work/ingenuity of HK people but if HK is say 250km south of where it is, it would take a very different path of development. No matter if one likes it or not, the fate of Hong Kong is intricately linked to the fate of China. HK's future is in China, not US, not UK, not Madagascar, China. Even Chris Patten, the Briton PRC government loves to hate recognises this. HK's mission ought to be capitalising on its unique position and maximises its benefit/gain from a China that is creating unprecedented wealth. Daydreaming is more realistic than a HK that completely separates itself from China.

I cringe at the word "brainwash" because it implies, whether intentionally or unintentionally, that Chinese people are stupid and easily manipulated. They are not. Every emperor, king, duke, marquis etc over the past 5000 years had been trying to convince the people that they were the best, the legitimate, the only one. Did not stop people rising up when they found that their lives were horrible. This is no different at present. The Chinese government right now is probably more worried about the soaring price of pork in China than HK Polytechnic University burning down. It is a popular but completely wrong idea that the politics is an one way street in China. You can be sure Xi Jinping is more clued in about what a middle class family in a third tier Chinese city want in their life than say Donald Trump about a similar family in the US.

I don't know how one proposes China winning "hearts and minds" in HK. It is certainly not going to cede control of HK government and legislature. You just need to look at what happened in Catalonia to realise that no central government will tolerate separatism. HK does not pay any tax to the PRC government (In comparison, Shanghai's contribution in tax alone is ~US$100 billion annually). Multiple concessions and sacrifices affecting mainland were made for the benefit of HK. HK is undoubtedly important to China, but it is not irreplaceable. At some stage, people will start asking if HK is a net positive asset.

"Power flows from the barrel of the gun" was made famous by Mao in the 1920s. Almost 100 years have passed since then and exactly 30 years have passed since 1989. The present leadership in PRC is much more sophisticated than their predecessors. Expecting them to make the same decision in a completely different setting is naive at best.

China will obviously voluntarily not cede control. Do you think Britain ceded control to India voluntarily ? Their were decades of a freedom struggle before we kicked the British out. Similarly you can't keep a people hostage for long. Previously the Americans needed the chinese market so put all the other freedom struggles in Tibet and Xinjiang on the back burner. But now usa recognises that it's created a monster by allowing free flow of manufacturing capability to the chinese. Its cracking down hard on the intellectual property stealing and one sided investment contracts China specialises in.
Also you have a very benign view of the present Chinese government. Its aggressively expanding its illegal control of the South China sea, building artificial islands, intimidating smaller countries with large scale government backed fishing trawlers, etc. I don't see one example where China has negotiated a fair agreement with its neighbours.
I have seen the hk youngsters in action and their dislike for the chinese regime is very intense.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2895
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:33 pm

Cerecl wrote:
I don't know how one proposes China winning "hearts and minds" in HK. It is certainly not going to cede control of HK government and legislature. You just need to look at what happened in Catalonia to realise that no central government will tolerate separatism. HK does not pay any tax to the PRC government (In comparison, Shanghai's contribution in tax alone is ~US$100 billion annually). Multiple concessions and sacrifices affecting mainland were made for the benefit of HK. HK is undoubtedly important to China, but it is not irreplaceable. At some stage, people will start asking if HK is a net positive asset.


Yeah...for all the talks about how Shanghai or Shenzhen is going to pass HK soon, why in the world does PRC gov't want to cling onto control of HK so badly, then?

As for economy, you can say that the youth are "naive", but if anything they are certainly willing to move away from an economy that's dominated by nothing but mainland interests. Let the whole city burn, the whole economy collapse, HKers can always rebuild the city as their own instead of one that's nothing more than a puppet state.

maint123 wrote:
I have seen the hk youngsters in action and their dislike for the chinese regime is very intense.


Not just Chinese regime. They hate everything mainland, period (Yes, that include the people).

As for the situation, all I'll say is, there's no turning back. So what if the protest finally stop? The hatred of mainland, the popo, and the govt will still be there. The popo in particular has lost all trust from 80% of HKers, and enforcing the law for them will only get difficult without the help of citizens.

P.S. Screw BBC - acting like they're "neutral" but they're doing nothing more than repeating the HK govt talking point.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2895
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Nov 25, 2019 1:38 am

Well, district council election, which is widely consider as a quasi referendum/poll on the govt, is over.

The pro-CCP camp literally got destroyed. They lose control of all 18 district councils, with a clean sweep in Tai Po and Wong Tai Sin.

One small step, hopefully the govt finally wake up and realized that the people are certainly NOT with them.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
mrgrtt123
Posts: 18
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:09 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:10 am

I wonder when will the chaos ends. A friend of mine visited Hongkong last week and she told me that a lot of infrastructures has been destroyed.
I really hope that the government will listen to the people.
 
YokoTsuno
Posts: 345
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:21 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:20 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Yeah...for all the talks about how Shanghai or Shenzhen is going to pass HK soon, why in the world does PRC gov't want to cling onto control of HK so badly, then?
Because that's how dictators and dictatorships are. They rather choose bloodshed and total destruction over talking to rival power, let alone sharing it. How many examples from history do you need? There's also a wider impact for China. If HK succeeds in some or full self-rule, other regions in China will aspire the same and that's the end of the China we know. China is not as homogeneous as people think it is.

The election results are only going to bring the problems to a new level. Local HK government is now in an impossible position and whatever they decide is going to be problematic. It's a very thin line her and many scholars predicted this, the next war will not be fought in the West but in the East.
 
Cerecl
Posts: 581
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:31 am

maint123 wrote:
China will obviously voluntarily not cede control. Do you think Britain ceded control to India voluntarily ? Their were decades of a freedom struggle before we kicked the British out. Similarly you can't keep a people hostage for long. Previously the Americans needed the chinese market so put all the other freedom struggles in Tibet and Xinjiang on the back burner. But now usa recognises that it's created a monster by allowing free flow of manufacturing capability to the chinese. Its cracking down hard on the intellectual property stealing and one sided investment contracts China specialises in.

Very different situation-UK is thousands of miles away from India, and India was not as heavily dependent on UK.
Anyway, Tibet and Xinjiang "freedom struggle“ is not going to succeed no matter who is in charge in China. You are from India? I will be brutally honest-Tibet is a barrier from your country and fighter jets from airforce base in Tibet will reach Calcutta and New Delhi in minutes if required. Whether the government in Beijing is completely authoritarian or 100% democratic, one person one vote, they will not let Tibet go. Similar situations with Xinjiang.

maint123 wrote:
Also you have a very benign view of the present Chinese government. Its aggressively expanding its illegal control of the South China sea, building artificial islands, intimidating smaller countries with large scale government backed fishing trawlers, etc. I don't see one example where China has negotiated a fair agreement with its neighbours.

I have a pragmatic view of the Chinese government. Obviously it is authoritarian, individual freedom/environmental pollution/widespread corruption etc. are major problems. However, you will find many members on this forum have a very primitive understanding of how the CCP managed to stay in power because they can't look beyond the issues listed above. As to the territorial disputes, for all China's "aggression" India among others is still holding onto large areas of disputed areas/islands. Is fishing trawlers really the best example one can come up for a country with 2 aircraft carriers and multiple Arleigh Burke-class equivalent destroyers?

maint123 wrote:
I have seen the hk youngsters in action and their dislike for the chinese regime is very intense.

That is obvious. What is more concerning is what zakuivcustom pointed out, that they hate Chinese people as well. I recently came across one opinion that what is happening in HK is terrible for democratic process in China-when the Chinese people saw how violence, wanton destruction of public property, complete disregard of social norm and order, as well as downright racism all manifest in the name of democracy. While many in HK rejoice in the recent election results, many more in China will wonder what they did to deserve this level of hatred and the cold reality that many among the group of people who they grew up regarding as "brothers and sisters" didn't want to have anything to do with them. Then they will start to wonder if it is really worth it to continue this relationship. If this sentiment gathers it will affect HK much more than bricks and teargas did.
Last edited by Cerecl on Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Cerecl
Posts: 581
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Nov 25, 2019 11:50 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Yeah...for all the talks about how Shanghai or Shenzhen is going to pass HK soon, why in the world does PRC gov't want to cling onto control of HK so badly, then?

As for economy, you can say that the youth are "naive", but if anything they are certainly willing to move away from an economy that's dominated by nothing but mainland interests. Let the whole city burn, the whole economy collapse, HKers can always rebuild the city as their own instead of one that's nothing more than a puppet state.

As I pointed out to you on another thread, Shanghai has already surpassed HK in GDP. There is a school of thought that the PRC government is deliberately holding back Shenzhen so as to not hurt HK. Economics is not the only factor when it comes to the operation of a government. There are multiple regions in China that are financial drains and contribute little to national economy. China and India actually went to war for bits of Tibet that hardly anyone lives in. Territory is territory, especially for the Chinese.

HK's source of wealth ultimately came from its role as THE financial centre in the region. I admire your optimism about a completely new economical structure independent of China. I just think it is a pie in the sky. Despite its rhetoric the US found out that it can't separate itself from China and its economy. Why do you think HK, with no industrial structure and intense competition from Chinese cities should PRC decides to replace or wean itself from money flowing in from HK, not to mention other regional competitors, can achieve this?
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zakuivcustom
Posts: 2895
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:09 pm

Cerecl wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
Yeah...for all the talks about how Shanghai or Shenzhen is going to pass HK soon, why in the world does PRC gov't want to cling onto control of HK so badly, then?

As for economy, you can say that the youth are "naive", but if anything they are certainly willing to move away from an economy that's dominated by nothing but mainland interests. Let the whole city burn, the whole economy collapse, HKers can always rebuild the city as their own instead of one that's nothing more than a puppet state.

As I pointed out to you on another thread, Shanghai has already surpassed HK in GDP. There is a school of thought that the PRC government is deliberately holding back Shenzhen so as to not hurt HK. Economics is not the only factor when it comes to the operation of a government. There are multiple regions in China that are financial drains and contribute little to national economy. China and India actually went to war for bits of Tibet that hardly anyone lives in. Territory is territory, especially for the Chinese.

HK's source of wealth ultimately came from its role as THE financial centre in the region. I admire your optimism about a completely new economical structure independent of China. I just think it is a pie in the sky. Despite its rhetoric the US found out that it can't separate itself from China and its economy. Why do you think HK, with no industrial structure and intense competition from Chinese cities should PRC decides to replace or wean itself from money flowing in from HK, not to mention other regional competitors, can achieve this?


Umm...
Shanghai population = 24M
HK population = 7.3M

Of course Shanghai SHOULD have a larger GDP overall. Their GDP per capita is still only 1/2 of HK.

Hack, Shenzhen is ahead of HK in GDP total also, but that doesn’t mean much as there is something like 12M people in Shenzhen.

And BS about holding back Shenzhen. Tell me why 80% foreign investment still goes through HK to begin with then? The foreign investors can certainly pick to put those money directly into mainland.

As far as being totally independent of mainland economically - yes, it is naive, and yes, HK economy will suffered badly for at least 10 years. But what is to say HK can’t just rebuild?

A side note - US can certainly bypass China totally. They had for decades in fact. Telling those greedy large business to not make as much money for a few years is like killing their all of their relatives and more, though, so there’s that.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
maint123
Posts: 255
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:27 pm

Cerecl, you are not informed. The average hong konger does not care what the chinese mainlander thinks about him or her. They refer to the chinese as locusts and worse from the last decade and half.
Government holding back shenzen are all stories.
And hk per capita is 40000 usd.
China is 10000 usd.
Their is no comparison.
The level of dislike the hkers have for the mainlanders is normally reserved for religious conflicts.
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 2895
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:10 pm

Cerecl wrote:
That is obvious. What is more concerning is what zakuivcustom pointed out, that they hate Chinese people as well. I recently came across one opinion that what is happening in HK is terrible for democratic process in China-when the Chinese people saw how violence, wanton destruction of public property, complete disregard of social norm and order, as well as downright racism all manifest in the name of democracy. While many in HK rejoice in the recent election results, many more in China will wonder what they did to deserve this level of hatred and the cold reality that many among the group of people who they grew up regarding as "brothers and sisters" didn't want to have anything to do with them. Then they will start to wonder if it is really worth it to continue this relationship. If this sentiment gathers it will affect HK much more than bricks and teargas did.


I'll throw in a few more points...
1. HKers doesn't even dislike mainlanders THIS much as little as 10 years ago. Yes, there was always discrimination against "new immigrants" as early as 1998, but not THIS widespread. Even opinion of the mainland changes a LOT. For example, if you asked an average HKers whether they're proud of their "motherland" in 2008 when Beijing was hosting the Olympics, many will probably say yes. Nowaday? You can barely get 30% of the average HKers consider themselves "Chinese".
2. Hack, even just past year or so (before the protest) you got the young generation going up to Shenzhen to enjoy the new malls, great restaurants that are cheap, and having a day break in Shenzhen is nothing out of ordinary. Good luck seeing that nowaday.
3. Yes, part of the protest is definitely fueled by the anti-mainlander sentiments (The "localists" are usually the most "radical" of the protesters). One thing to remember, though, the mainlander that most average people has to deal with are NOT the professionals, but rather, it's usually those loud tourists roaming shopping areas or parallel traders. Hack, even mainland university students doesn't get treated that bad in general despite the large amount of protesters being university students themselves. But either way, anti-mainland tourists sentiment is anything but unique in HK (Ask an average Taiwanese or Japanese or Korean or even Chinese Malaysian/Singaporean).
4. Part of the sentiment has to deal with HOW the government is trying to push everything mainland. Instead of having people gradually accept things (b/c people certainly do), the HK gov't simply wants to ram everything down HKers throat and expect people to just accept changes overnight. But then, these are the same govt officials that keep talking about "Greater Bay Area" or "Belts and Roads" without even knowing what those things mean themselves.
5. Part of what makes Point #4 so hard, of course, is that b/c many things in mainland is facade only with no substance. Things like soft products are NOT built overnight, but involved Continuous Involvement. No chabuduo ("Good enough" aka the mainland mantra), no shortcuts (which mainland use all the time...i.e. IP thefts), cannot be forced (i.e. the whole BS "Social Credit" System that basically try to make everyone into a "model" citizens), and definitely required individual thinkings (Which doesn't exist in mainland b/c they're teach to just "obey" from the day they're born...hence the joke about mainlanders being "robots" that are really smart and can do a very good job in many things, but can never take the next step beyond).
6. Ultimately, regarding Point #5 above - the sooner the Chinese gov't realize they can't win over heart by force, the better. There are many, many great things about mainland (the place, or even the people...although definitely not the govt), use those instead of holding a gun next to HKers forcing them to submit.
Free Hong Kong! Free China!
 
seat64k
Posts: 538
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:44 pm

Cerecl wrote:
That is obvious. What is more concerning is what zakuivcustom pointed out, that they hate Chinese people as well.


This is a big generalisaton. For one, Hong Kongers are not stupid enough to conflate the issue of large scale mainland immigration and the detrimental effects that has on their culture, language, politics, job market and housing costs, with maindland people seeking a better life and doing their damnest to fit in.

There are mainlanders and there are mainlanders. There are the mainland tourists and parallel traders acting like savages and the nuveau-rich who come over to play and are blisfully unaware of how unsophisticated and crass their behaviour is. And of course all the mainland companies who bring people over to work here - they go home on weekends, they don't bother learning canto, they don't integrate on any level, and they generally piss people off.

But then there are people who move here to study and work, who often give up Chinese citizenship to become permanent residents. Who speak Cantonese so well it takes a trained ear to be able to tell the difference apart. They pick up local conventions, local ettiquette, they're generally very aware of how mainlanders are percieved and do their best to not conform to the stereotypes. They often hate the first group of mainlanders too and don't want to be associated with them in any way.

In every protests I took part in, there were were mainland immigrants taking part too, at great risk to themselves. Hong Kongers know this, and they also know that much of the problems caused by large scale mainland immigration wouldn't be much of an issue if the HK govt didn't roll over every time Beijing as much as glances in its direction.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:42 pm

maint123 wrote:
And hk per capita is 40000 usd.
China is 10000 usd.
Their is no comparison.
The level of dislike the hkers have for the mainlanders is normally reserved for religious conflicts.


It’s all correctable. Another year of “freedom fighting”, and GDP per capital in Hong Kong may very well fall to that of China.
 
maint123
Posts: 255
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:30 am

anrec80 wrote:
maint123 wrote:
And hk per capita is 40000 usd.
China is 10000 usd.
Their is no comparison.
The level of dislike the hkers have for the mainlanders is normally reserved for religious conflicts.


It’s all correctable. Another year of “freedom fighting”, and GDP per capital in Hong Kong may very well fall to that of China.

Won't happen. Lots of countries ready to replace China in hk at the drop of a hat. The youngsters in hk are all educated and when they read sentiments like yours, and from many in the mainland, they realise that hk is just another territory for the chinese ppl and government., to be conquered and administered. And coming from ppl they in any case think inferior, fuels resistance.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:29 am

maint123 wrote:
Won't happen. Lots of countries ready to replace China in hk at the drop of a hat. The youngsters in hk are all educated and when they read sentiments like yours, and from many in the mainland, they realise that hk is just another territory for the chinese ppl and government., to be conquered and administered. And coming from ppl they in any case think inferior, fuels resistance.


It's exactly what will happen if China does not intervene and all those "activists" get to power. You know what makes me laugh the most in all this (and I find incredibly silly)? These protesters cite Ukraine as their example. Of course, they forget to realize after Ukrainian "success" their economy shrunk by 40% - due to destruction of economic ties and institutions. Yes, the crowd on Maidan was also young and educated. And now Ukrainians en-masse are migrant workers in Russia and Poland.

Same awaits for those "young and educated" as well - they will collapse their own republic, and the only thing left for them will be work abroad. Then they will throw away all this "rights" and "freedom" garbage out of their head and realize that a migrant worker has only one right - to receive their money, and one freedom - to get the heck out when requested. Of course, migrant worker situation has no place for any future, education, retirement, healthcare, living standards at home, and the likes.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 42021.html

The ambassador emphasized that the separatist goals of the protesters are unattainable. “But to guarantee life at the level of Ukrainians is possible,” he concluded.
 
c933103
Posts: 3887
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:39 pm

Cerecl wrote:
maint123 wrote:
China will obviously voluntarily not cede control. Do you think Britain ceded control to India voluntarily ? Their were decades of a freedom struggle before we kicked the British out. Similarly you can't keep a people hostage for long. Previously the Americans needed the chinese market so put all the other freedom struggles in Tibet and Xinjiang on the back burner. But now usa recognises that it's created a monster by allowing free flow of manufacturing capability to the chinese. Its cracking down hard on the intellectual property stealing and one sided investment contracts China specialises in.

Very different situation-UK is thousands of miles away from India, and India was not as heavily dependent on UK.
Anyway, Tibet and Xinjiang "freedom struggle“ is not going to succeed no matter who is in charge in China. You are from India? I will be brutally honest-Tibet is a barrier from your country and fighter jets from airforce base in Tibet will reach Calcutta and New Delhi in minutes if required. Whether the government in Beijing is completely authoritarian or 100% democratic, one person one vote, they will not let Tibet go. Similar situations with Xinjiang.

You are right that China will not give up Tibet and Xinjiang voluntarily regardless of regime. But that will only work if China proper itself remain unified, so that there is a single entity with enough power that can exert control on other nearby regions.
Alternatively, What PRC is doing in Xinjiang and Tibet now will not be without consequences. If one day PRC is getting replaced by another regime, then one thing for them to consider is whether it's going to be worthwhile, or whether they're financially capable, to continue PRC's policy on the two area, and if the answer is no then they would need to think creatively how they are going to prevent instability in the region from affecting mainland.
maint123 wrote:
Also you have a very benign view of the present Chinese government. Its aggressively expanding its illegal control of the South China sea, building artificial islands, intimidating smaller countries with large scale government backed fishing trawlers, etc. I don't see one example where China has negotiated a fair agreement with its neighbours.

I have a pragmatic view of the Chinese government. Obviously it is authoritarian, individual freedom/environmental pollution/widespread corruption etc. are major problems. However, you will find many members on this forum have a very primitive understanding of how the CCP managed to stay in power because they can't look beyond the issues listed above. As to the territorial disputes, for all China's "aggression" India among others is still holding onto large areas of disputed areas/islands. Is fishing trawlers really the best example one can come up for a country with 2 aircraft carriers and multiple Arleigh Burke-class equivalent destroyers?

Use of fishing trawlers or other non-military mean is China's way to change status quo. They know that it would be ugly for them to actually fight a war against other countries over disputed territories, so they are sending non-military force to different disputed area around China, which can achieve their goal of exerting their control on those area while not causing conflicts that they want, and make it easier for them to paint it as the other side's fault when the other side try to respond to these moves.

maint123 wrote:
I have seen the hk youngsters in action and their dislike for the chinese regime is very intense.

That is obvious. What is more concerning is what zakuivcustom pointed out, that they hate Chinese people as well. I recently came across one opinion that what is happening in HK is terrible for democratic process in China-when the Chinese people saw how violence, wanton destruction of public property, complete disregard of social norm and order, as well as downright racism all manifest in the name of democracy. While many in HK rejoice in the recent election results, many more in China will wonder what they did to deserve this level of hatred and the cold reality that many among the group of people who they grew up regarding as "brothers and sisters" didn't want to have anything to do with them. Then they will start to wonder if it is really worth it to continue this relationship. If this sentiment gathers it will affect HK much more than bricks and teargas did.

Not really a lot of incidents in recent months can be said as racism in nature. The hatred against the identity of Chinese is generally a result of PRC advertising itself as representative of interest of all "Chinese" people, and that there are indeed a lot of people who claim to be Chinese and oppose what is happening in Hong Kong "because they are Chinese" and use "these activity in Hong Kong would damage China-PRC" as a reason to explain their opposition. The Chinese patriotism and recognition toward this identity have been used by both the PRC as well as people who claim they are "Chinese" to equate to supporting the authoritative government in China. In fact most of the incidents appears to be "racism" can be explained this way although there are no denying that some of these could translate into actual racism yet that's still not a widespread phenomenon, just like how you can see some individual from mainland China who do not support the authoritative governing of Hong Kong by PRC have appeard in various events in Hong Kong and find themselves accepted by other participants of those events.
If one really want to talk about racism then there's one element that do worry me and that would be the racism against Hokkien. Hokkien individuals have been involved in some event where citizens have been attacked and that's why there are some hatred against "Hokkien gangs" which would be reasonable, but some seems to be trying to expand the definition of "Hokkien gangs" toward everyone who are ethnically Hokkien...

anrec80 wrote:
It's exactly what will happen if China does not intervene and all those "activists" get to power. You know what makes me laugh the most in all this (and I find incredibly silly)? These protesters cite Ukraine as their example. Of course, they forget to realize after Ukrainian "success" their economy shrunk by 40% - due to destruction of economic ties and institutions. Yes, the crowd on Maidan was also young and educated. And now Ukrainians en-masse are migrant workers in Russia and Poland.

Same awaits for those "young and educated" as well - they will collapse their own republic, and the only thing left for them will be work abroad. Then they will throw away all this "rights" and "freedom" garbage out of their head and realize that a migrant worker has only one right - to receive their money, and one freedom - to get the heck out when requested. Of course, migrant worker situation has no place for any future, education, retirement, healthcare, living standards at home, and the likes.

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... 42021.html

The ambassador emphasized that the separatist goals of the protesters are unattainable. “But to guarantee life at the level of Ukrainians is possible,” he concluded.

Except, if China get to do what they want and turned Hong Kong from an international city to a city enclosed within the Chinese economic system inside the Pearl River Delta area following the Chinese law and order, the decline of the city will be more than that? Not to mention The current in Hong Kong is not inherently "separatist", it is only resisting the mindset that everyone within the country have to follow the words from the de facto emperor of the country and to establish a system that can operate independently within China's sovereignty boundary, just as the one country two system originally intended to be, until the central government of China reinterpreted One country two system as a way for China to have complete control on Hong Kong.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:30 pm

c933103 wrote:
Except, if China get to do what they want and turned Hong Kong from an international city to a city enclosed within the Chinese economic system inside the Pearl River Delta area following the Chinese law and order, the decline of the city will be more than that? Not to mention The current in Hong Kong is not inherently "separatist", it is only resisting the mindset that everyone within the country have to follow the words from the de facto emperor of the country and to establish a system that can operate independently within China's sovereignty boundary, just as the one country two system originally intended to be, until the central government of China reinterpreted One country two system as a way for China to have complete control on Hong Kong.


In this story - China isn’t looking for anything particular in Hong Kong. “One country, two systems” works well for them, and China benefits from having this window into Western world essentially. What are the goals of these protesters - vast majority of them don’t know themselves. Their leadership is simply in business of slicing and dicing “freedom and democracy support” grants, nothing else. And if they make a lot of progress in destroying the economy - those young and educated Hong Kongsters will be running up North en masse themselves and will be gladly integrating into Chinese system one by one. And they will be very lucky if their new Chinese employer or coworkers will not be regarding our poor “young and educated” Hong Kongster as someone who screwed his own place. Of course, thoughts of systems, freedoms, rights and such will evaporate right at the moment of border crossing.
 
c933103
Posts: 3887
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:21 pm

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Except, if China get to do what they want and turned Hong Kong from an international city to a city enclosed within the Chinese economic system inside the Pearl River Delta area following the Chinese law and order, the decline of the city will be more than that? Not to mention The current in Hong Kong is not inherently "separatist", it is only resisting the mindset that everyone within the country have to follow the words from the de facto emperor of the country and to establish a system that can operate independently within China's sovereignty boundary, just as the one country two system originally intended to be, until the central government of China reinterpreted One country two system as a way for China to have complete control on Hong Kong.


In this story - China isn’t looking for anything particular in Hong Kong. “One country, two systems” works well for them, and China benefits from having this window into Western world essentially. What are the goals of these protesters - vast majority of them don’t know themselves. Their leadership is simply in business of slicing and dicing “freedom and democracy support” grants, nothing else. And if they make a lot of progress in destroying the economy - those young and educated Hong Kongsters will be running up North en masse themselves and will be gladly integrating into Chinese system one by one. And they will be very lucky if their new Chinese employer or coworkers will not be regarding our poor “young and educated” Hong Kongster as someone who screwed his own place. Of course, thoughts of systems, freedoms, rights and such will evaporate right at the moment of border crossing.

The first line of your post is correct. "In this story". That's the story that China is trying to tell the whole world, but it is sadly different from the reality. The system worked well, except when China decided elements in the society didn't match their needs, or when they want ti advance their interest within the society, for example when they try to promote national security law, when they try to limit the election right of the citizens, when they try to promote nationalism and national education, or when they want to extend their jurisdiction over the territory. The protest right now is not inherently a protest against the Chinese government, it is a protest against the local government which decided to response to public demand using power instead of policy. The Central Chinese government associated with the protest as they treated it as a national problem and decided to further constrain responses that can be made by the local Hong Kong government. All demands of the protest are local and doesn't involve sovereignty, national security, nor diplomacy which are the originally intended scopes of jurisdiction China have over Hong Kong under the One Country Two System arrangement. Yet China continue to see this as if it is a national security problem and try to counter it using this way is something nobody can help. Indeed China benefited from using Hong Kong as a window to the western world, that's why measures adopted by western countries against Hong Kong have some degree of effect on China, however what they held as higher priority nowadays is the absolute authority of Mr. Xi Jin Ping in the country and through this the absolute power of the communist party. A Hong Kong that does not follow the national direction is obviously a threat to that, which is why they are keep coming up with plans trying to keep this window open to the world on surface while doing otherwise under the table. This plan have failed thanks to what happened in Hong Kong in the past half year, and now the question is up to the party: Whether it is more important to keep this window open, or are they going to put it under its total rule even if it is to be at the cost of shutting down the window? I actually believe they will rather close the window than to let it gain its own authority outside the party's control, but let's wish I was wrong, as else the entire China would be on a path of closing up itself and repeat its past failure.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
maint123
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:12 am

C933103, at the start it wasn't against the chinese government but the actions of the chinese government, including kidnapping hk citizens and moving them to the mainland, banning Liberal politicians from fighting in elections, imposing a unpopular chief, and now this extradition treaty, have pushed the demands firmly into independence territory. All the graffiti and signs involve freedom. China tried its normal "creeping" policy, which it uses to slowly invade the territory of its neighbours, but here it's backfired badly. As I said, the chinese govt has lost the people of hk, it only controls the territory.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:00 am

c933103 wrote:
The system worked well, except when China decided elements in the society didn't match their needs, or when they want ti advance their interest within the society, for example when they try to promote national security law, when they try to limit the election right of the citizens, when they try to promote nationalism and national education, or when they want to extend their jurisdiction over the territory.


Yes, I am aware that this mess started because Carrie Lam went to ratify the national security agreement with China - which I think is right. This would be in interests of both HK and China - nobody in any country should have a “law-free zone”. There should not be situation when HKG criminals and crooks are seeking refuge from the law in China, and Chinese ones in HKG. Nobody was going after any freedoms or anything like this.

c933103 wrote:
A Hong Kong that does not follow the national direction is obviously a threat to that, which is why they are keep coming up with plans trying to keep this window open to the world on surface while doing otherwise under the table. This plan have failed thanks to what happened in Hong Kong in the past half year, and now the question is up to the party: Whether it is more important to keep this window open, or are they going to put it under its total rule even if it is to be at the cost of shutting down the window? I actually believe they will rather close the window than to let it gain its own authority outside the party's control, but let's wish I was wrong, as else the entire China would be on a path of closing up itself and repeat its past failure.


I think it’s HK that should worry that this prolongued mess does not destabilize the economy. Else - without economic base there is no freedom, education, security, and the likes. These same HK’ers who are one protesters will end up going to China to make some living, and will be accepting their rules of the game one at a time, one “protester” at a time. And that’s even if some country lets them in to live and work - generally, nations are keeping track of such “freedom fighters” and prefer to steer clear from them. China will for sure.

I am totally in favor of liberal protests, as long as they are truly peaceful, the events are complying with all the laws, and their leadership and participants respect opinions, freedoms and rights of other citizens. Otherwise - such protests should be suppressed by force, and their leaders prosecuted. And I certainly cannot see how one can support protest that is aimed at weakening their own state, when the leaders are chasing their goals - and the target of weakening here is HK itself, not China.
Last edited by anrec80 on Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:02 am

maint123 wrote:
C933103, at the start it wasn't against the chinese government but the actions of the chinese government, including kidnapping hk citizens and moving them to the mainland, banning Liberal politicians from fighting in elections, imposing a unpopular chief, and now this extradition treaty, have pushed the demands firmly into independence territory. All the graffiti and signs involve freedom. China tried its normal "creeping" policy, which it uses to slowly invade the territory of its neighbours, but here it's backfired badly. As I said, the chinese govt has lost the people of hk, it only controls the territory.


I would not speak of all people of HK. Keep in mind - this is only a small, but visible and aggressive minority that’s rioting on the streets and is creating the picture. Majority of HK’ers want to live peacefully and lawfully.
 
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stl07
Posts: 1726
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:33 am

anrec80 wrote:
Majority of HK’ers want to live peacefully and lawfully.
[/quote]
But those 2 things are not inherently separate. One could argue that the reason the HK'ers are taking to the streets is because the violations of the Chinese government prevent them from living peacefully and lawfully.
Interesting how every thread is spammed with "bring back paid membership, there are too many spammers"
 
c933103
Posts: 3887
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:59 am

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The system worked well, except when China decided elements in the society didn't match their needs, or when they want ti advance their interest within the society, for example when they try to promote national security law, when they try to limit the election right of the citizens, when they try to promote nationalism and national education, or when they want to extend their jurisdiction over the territory.


Yes, I am aware that this mess started because Carrie Lam went to ratify the national security agreement with China - which I think is right. This would be in interests of both HK and China - nobody in any country should have a “law-free zone”. There should not be situation when HKG criminals and crooks are seeking refuge from the law in China, and Chinese ones in HKG. Nobody was going after any freedoms or anything like this.

c933103 wrote:
A Hong Kong that does not follow the national direction is obviously a threat to that, which is why they are keep coming up with plans trying to keep this window open to the world on surface while doing otherwise under the table. This plan have failed thanks to what happened in Hong Kong in the past half year, and now the question is up to the party: Whether it is more important to keep this window open, or are they going to put it under its total rule even if it is to be at the cost of shutting down the window? I actually believe they will rather close the window than to let it gain its own authority outside the party's control, but let's wish I was wrong, as else the entire China would be on a path of closing up itself and repeat its past failure.


I think it’s HK that should worry that this prolongued mess does not destabilize the economy. Else - without economic base there is no freedom, education, security, and the likes. These same HK’ers who are one protesters will end up going to China to make some living, and will be accepting their rules of the game one at a time, one “protester” at a time. And that’s even if some country lets them in to live and work - generally, nations are keeping track of such “freedom fighters” and prefer to steer clear from them. China will for sure.

I am totally in favor of liberal protests, as long as they are truly peaceful, the events are complying with all the laws, and their leadership and participants respect opinions, freedoms and rights of other citizens. Otherwise - such protests should be suppressed by force, and their leaders prosecuted. And I certainly cannot see how one can support protest that is aimed at weakening their own state, when the leaders are chasing their goals - and the target of weakening here is HK itself, not China.

The national security law refer to the law they tried to legislate but failed in 2003, which they intended to try again in recent years.
As for the extradition bill - It sound nice to have legal arrangement which ensure all criminals can be prosecuted, unless and until you realize the Chinese law is so flexible that it the party say it is to be used aa a weapon in the nation's struggle against the west, which is indeed displayed on numerous incidents involving what they claim to be related to national security or what you can see as related to their diplomatic policy, all sort of exotic crimes have been used by the Chinese government to accuse those they don't like, under the name of ordinary legal process when it is in fact the otherwise. Fighting against the extradition bill mean fighting against the extension of such legal system towards Hong Kong as Hong Kong is a non-sovereign entity where the government as its current state is not functioning independently.
Economic foundation is cool, when you can guarantee you can live in the place securely, else regardless of what sort of prosperity or education system or medical care you come up with, they are all irrelevant to regular citizens who cannot enjoy it all.
As for liberal protest, again that's nice and cool, until when such sort of protests are no longer being allowed. It is not impossible but it is not sustainable to do nothing against violent suppression. If you cannot see the intrinsic logic behind then you would need to repair your logic based on the most recent election result in Hong Kong where the pro government group failed miserably while calling for stop violence and the pro democracy camp achieved landslide victory by supporting all fractions in the protest including those who use forces.
The reason why sometimes people do not support "their state" is when "their state" no longer treat people as theirs and address their concern, instead treating them like enemies that must be contained.
anrec80 wrote:
I would not speak of all people of HK. Keep in mind - this is only a small, but visible and aggressive minority that’s rioting on the streets and is creating the picture. Majority of HK’ers want to live peacefully and lawfully.

Majority of Hong Kong people want to live peacefully and lawfully under a law and order that actually keep them secure, instead of putting them under constant fear, as reflected in the recent election result.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:58 pm

stl07 wrote:
But those 2 things are not inherently separate. One could argue that the reason the HK'ers are taking to the streets is because the violations of the Chinese government prevent them from living peacefully and lawfully.


So to elaborate on that - is it China that makes some violent youngsters to destroy their own city? Then what about an old bald fat sex offender - shall we argue that he molests children because adult women prevent him from living lawfully by going out with him? And that a corrupt official is being prevented from living lawfully by all those “businessmen” carrying to him suitcases of cash? I don’t even want to mention what exactly prevents a bad dancer from dancing.

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