anrec80
Posts: 2243
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:15 pm

c933103 wrote:
As for liberal protest, again that's nice and cool, until when such sort of protests are no longer being allowed. It is not impossible but it is not sustainable to do nothing against violent suppression.


These 2 things are often being mixed up - protests being not allowed or public events being required to comply with the laws. Legal restrictions on a public event or disapproval of the requested public space is not yet a protest being disallowed.

c933103 wrote:
If you cannot see the intrinsic logic behind then you would need to repair your logic based on the most recent election result in Hong Kong where the pro government group failed miserably while calling for stop violence and the pro democracy camp achieved landslide victory by supporting all fractions in the protest including those who use forces.


And this is unfortunate for a few reasons. One being is that these political groups put their interests of being elected ahead of interests of basic functioning of HK’s institutions, and are willing to undermine them in order to get there. Not unlike a coup really - but instead of brute force they use all sorts of other tactics, such as intimidation or discreditation. And second being - in these “pro-democratic camps” there are too many people who are skilled at criticizing things, but not having even a tiny bit of competence required for civil service and building out a society. These people profit (and have vested interest in) things being bad and going downhill, as opposed to seeing them improved.

Right now, HKers think that it will all be just as good, but just democracy will win. But - such “victories” are always accompanied by severe economic degradation at best, and civil wars in too many cases. There are countless examples in this world by now.

c933103 wrote:
The reason why sometimes people do not support "their state" is when "their state" no longer treat people as theirs and address their concern, instead treating them like enemies that must be contained.


The state cannot support everything. And in any state, elected officials do have mandate to make decisions on behalf of the whole nation - this is just a representative democracy, nothing else. What we see here is that this “pro-democratic camp” is glad to weaken their own state to just get elected - and such behavior should not be tolerated and supported. And - as I said above - if they destroy their own state, there will be no other to protect them and provide them any sorts of living conditions. People who screwed their own state have only one fate - that of migrant workers, without any rights or future, regardless of origin or educational level.
 
c933103
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:50 pm

anrec80 wrote:
These 2 things are often being mixed up - protests being not allowed or public events being required to comply with the laws. Legal restrictions on a public event or disapproval of the requested public space is not yet a protest being disallowed.

In Hong Kong situation, most of the protests aren't done in the sort of public spaces that would require such approval so I am not sure what's the relevancy of your argument.
And yes the police do oppose most protests that tries to go through the formal procedure they set up despite whether they have the power to do so is dubious.
And regardless of whether they have approved or opposed these protests, even when they are proceeding peacefully, the police will still crack down those protests using violent forces.

anrec80 wrote:
And this is unfortunate for a few reasons. One being is that these political groups put their interests of being elected ahead of interests of basic functioning of HK’s institutions, and are willing to undermine them in order to get there. Not unlike a coup really - but instead of brute force they use all sorts of other tactics, such as intimidation or discreditation. And second being - in these “pro-democratic camps” there are too many people who are skilled at criticizing things, but not having even a tiny bit of competence required for civil service and building out a society. These people profit (and have vested interest in) things being bad and going downhill, as opposed to seeing them improved.

Right now, HKers think that it will all be just as good, but just democracy will win. But - such “victories” are always accompanied by severe economic degradation at best, and civil wars in too many cases. There are countless examples in this world by now.

This is not a one sided opinion. The pro-government camp have also spend tons of money advertise in all major media saying that the election is "a referendum to stop violence" only to lose disastrously.
And if election is a coup then I guess you are just incapable of handling opposite opinion.
And no, this is not the win of democracy, if it is a win of democracy then the government will be changing its way to response to the public but no it doesn't, the only value of the election result is prove that the government is standing against what is truly the majority of the public.

anrec80 wrote:
The state cannot support everything. And in any state, elected officials do have mandate to make decisions on behalf of the whole nation - this is just a representative democracy, nothing else. What we see here is that this “pro-democratic camp” is glad to weaken their own state to just get elected - and such behavior should not be tolerated and supported. And - as I said above - if they destroy their own state, there will be no other to protect them and provide them any sorts of living conditions. People who screwed their own state have only one fate - that of migrant workers, without any rights or future, regardless of origin or educational level.

Funny you talk about "elected official" when the country is China
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:00 am

c933103 wrote:
In Hong Kong situation, most of the protests aren't done in the sort of public spaces that would require such approval so I am not sure what's the relevancy of your argument.
And yes the police do oppose most protests that tries to go through the formal procedure they set up despite whether they have the power to do so is dubious.
And regardless of whether they have approved or opposed these protests, even when they are proceeding peacefully, the police will still crack down those protests using violent forces.


For such scenarios, there are civil courts in countries. Violence towards the police and breaking laws isn't a response to disallowed public event.

c933103 wrote:
And if election is a coup then I guess you are just incapable of handling opposite opinion.


I did not say it is a coup - I've just said that these elections went in the environment of chaos and discreditation, as opposed to calm and civilized electoral campaign. Hence the results are certainly biased. However, if HK society accepts their results as legitimate - that's how then it has to be.

c933103 wrote:
And no, this is not the win of democracy, if it is a win of democracy then the government will be changing its way to response to the public but no it doesn't, the only value of the election result is prove that the government is standing against what is truly the majority of the public.


The true democracy win will be when today's students see economic despair caused by their "freedom fighting" and will be searching for a job around all Asia. Then some of them will start realizing what did they do.

c933103 wrote:
Funny you talk about "elected official" when the country is China


I talked about Carrie Lam here - she apparently is an official elected in HK, not appointed by China.
 
c933103
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:13 am

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
In Hong Kong situation, most of the protests aren't done in the sort of public spaces that would require such approval so I am not sure what's the relevancy of your argument.
And yes the police do oppose most protests that tries to go through the formal procedure they set up despite whether they have the power to do so is dubious.
And regardless of whether they have approved or opposed these protests, even when they are proceeding peacefully, the police will still crack down those protests using violent forces.


For such scenarios, there are civil courts in countries. Violence towards the police and breaking laws isn't a response to disallowed public event.

Police have removed all identification that're required by the law in the name of protecting their own privacy to make it impossible to held them accountable through the court system. And the court system in Hong Kong isn't functioning perfectly either.

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
And if election is a coup then I guess you are just incapable of handling opposite opinion.


I did not say it is a coup - I've just said that these elections went in the environment of chaos and discreditation, as opposed to calm and civilized electoral campaign. Hence the results are certainly biased. However, if HK society accepts their results as legitimate - that's how then it has to be.

You may say that to the force causing huge disruption in the city in the weeks before the election by surrounding university campuses.

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
And no, this is not the win of democracy, if it is a win of democracy then the government will be changing its way to response to the public but no it doesn't, the only value of the election result is prove that the government is standing against what is truly the majority of the public.


The true democracy win will be when today's students see economic despair caused by their "freedom fighting" and will be searching for a job around all Asia. Then some of them will start realizing what did they do.

Win of democracy doesn't mean the wib of result you like.

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Funny you talk about "elected official" when the country is China


I talked about Carrie Lam here - she apparently is an official elected in HK, not appointed by China.

She is appointed by China. Try not to say things you don't understand.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:33 am

c933103 wrote:
Police have removed all identification that're required by the law in the name of protecting their own privacy to make it impossible to held them accountable through the court system. And the court system in Hong Kong isn't functioning perfectly either.

You may say that to the force causing huge disruption in the city in the weeks before the election by surrounding university campuses.


Even if so - this is not the reason for violence.

c933103 wrote:
Win of democracy doesn't mean the wib of result you like.


What I was describing was the consequences of the "win of the democracy". After all, these were the consequences of "democracy wins" in many other counties, including mine. And there they also thought that they are somehow "special", but ended up in the same soup as anyone else in that boat. And that is not to mention too many other consequences, compared to which economic degradation isn't even the worst.

c933103 wrote:
She is appointed by China. Try not to say things you don't understand.


And nonetheless - she has got to her position via pathways of HK's political system, not that of China. Hence - how did that end up happening then?
 
c933103
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:01 am

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Police have removed all identification that're required by the law in the name of protecting their own privacy to make it impossible to held them accountable through the court system. And the court system in Hong Kong isn't functioning perfectly either.

You may say that to the force causing huge disruption in the city in the weeks before the election by surrounding university campuses.


Even if so - this is not the reason for violence.

You should say this to those who use violence first, aka those who name themselves as police.

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Win of democracy doesn't mean the win of result you like.


What I was describing was the consequences of the "win of the democracy". After all, these were the consequences of "democracy wins" in many other counties, including mine. And there they also thought that they are somehow "special", but ended up in the same soup as anyone else in that boat. And that is not to mention too many other consequences, compared to which economic degradation isn't even the worst.

Economy depends on stability. Of course such sort of mass movement is going to reduce stability. However the stability of the territory's economy and legal system will be even worse if China get their way. Chinese government didn't realize their goal to put Hong Kong under their control isn't compatible with their their other goal of keeping Hong Kong open to international market and maintain its prosperity. What the people in the city is also doing now is to show it to the Chinese government.

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
She is appointed by China. Try not to say things you don't understand.


And nonetheless - she has got to her position via pathways of HK's political system, not that of China. Hence - how did that end up happening then?

The political system was also designed by China during handover.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:55 am

c933103 wrote:
Economy depends on stability. Of course such sort of mass movement is going to reduce stability.


Economy depends on too many things to mention. But most important are quality of institutions, quality and competence of governance, smart and proper placement of the country globally, and relations with major players. Such actions cause severe damage to the very country's institutions and thus not only undermine the economy, but also ability of the economy to recover.

c933103 wrote:
However the stability of the territory's economy and legal system will be even worse if China get their way. Chinese government didn't realize their goal to put Hong Kong under their control isn't compatible with their their other goal of keeping Hong Kong open to international market and maintain its prosperity. What the people in the city is also doing now is to show it to the Chinese government.


I am not worried about Chinese government. They see all they need to see and are able to take care of their problems. I am worried about Hong Kong by far more. Hong Kong placement is between Western world and Asian nations that aren't part of the Western political and economic system - China being the primary customer here. This is how HK makes its living, and this is where it is in demand. This would be trade, banking, financial flows servicing. China isn't an enemy to HK - China invests a lot of resources into bridges, infrastructure, and does allow all the freedoms HK feels like having. China even wasn't against foreign military visits into HK - something they would not allow into their ports. Positive relations with everyone around is crucial to the very existence of such states. And now these "new democratic leaders" are about to edge up at China.

Just look at whose embassy those "protesters" hang around, and it will become clear in whose interests it all is. Their goals aren't hard to predict either.

If HK wants to call itself free - well, then HK's prosperity is HK's responsibility, not China's. And not China's problem either. If HK wants to make China an adversary - by all means. China will be able to replace HK businesses in their trade flows and sort it all out with EU, USA, other Asian nations - the field HK is in (global trade) is competitive, and there will be other companies from other countries to pick up the slack if Chinese firms won't be able to do it immediately. But what will be left in stock for HK? HK will be cut out of virtually anything important - trade, investments, financial flows. Just go back to the same fishing they used to do 100 years back? If HK "protesters" end up screwing their region, China may or may not offer any help. Or offer help with a whole lot of conditions.

And now let's look what's going on in the world - USA (and EU up to lesser extent) produce instability by all sorts of trade barriers and sanctions (oftentimes resembling blunt radering more than anything else). More and more nations prefer to trade directly without Western financial systems involved. Siding with West all-in - in these circumstances is joining the losing team.

c933103 wrote:
The political system was also designed by China during handover.


And what was HK doing for 20 years after the handover?
 
c933103
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:45 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Economy depends on too many things to mention. But most important are quality of institutions, quality and competence of governance, smart and proper placement of the country globally, and relations with major players. Such actions cause severe damage to the very country's institutions and thus not only undermine the economy, but also ability of the economy to recover.

Economy depends on the ability that businesses are able to do what they want freely. The false sense of government control will enhance economy is what brought many countries down in the past and also what will still happen many time in many places in the future. Of course those companies need a functioning government and competence legal system to guarantee the safety of their property while making investment, amd the lack of such after many revolutionary attempts across the globe is what caused the failure of those economic system, but as long as China isn't touching them it is not in the interest of people in the city to overturn them either, so whether it's going to head to that end will totally depends on decision made by the Chinese central government.

anrec80 wrote:
I am not worried about Chinese government. They see all they need to see and are able to take care of their problems.

If only. They cannot even see the pro government camp actually losing the election and have been paralyzed from giving a proper response.

anrec80 wrote:
I am worried about Hong Kong by far more. Hong Kong placement is between Western world and Asian nations that aren't part of the Western political and economic system - China being the primary customer here. This is how HK makes its living, and this is where it is in demand. This would be trade, banking, financial flows servicing. China isn't an enemy to HK - China invests a lot of resources into bridges, infrastructure, and does allow all the freedoms HK feels like having.

China is not the enemy of Hong Kong. But when Chinese government don't understand what they're doing and try to domesticize Hong Kong then they are putting itself against the role of Hong Kong, unknowingly. The Chinese government is dreaming about continue to keep Hong Kong's placement as a window of trade between China and the West, while trying to exert total control on the territory, without realizing the special role of Hong Kong come from the fact that it isn't being totally controlled by the Chinese government.
anrec80 wrote:
China even wasn't against foreign military visits into HK - something they would not allow into their ports. Positive relations with everyone around is crucial to the very existence of such states. And now these "new democratic leaders" are about to edge up at China.

Just look at whose embassy those "protesters" hang around, and it will become clear in whose interests it all is. Their goals aren't hard to predict either.

It is in the interst of everyone on the international market to keep Hong Kong free and open. If one party refused to do so and try to overturn the table then of course it is very natural to seek hekp from other party who would like to stop that party from doing so.

anrec80 wrote:
If HK wants to call itself free - well, then HK's prosperity is HK's responsibility, not China's. And not China's problem either.

It's only Chinese government that keep arguing otherwise.

anrec80 wrote:
If HK wants to make China an adversary - by all means. China will be able to replace HK businesses in their trade flows and sort it all out with EU, USA, other Asian nations - the field HK is in (global trade) is competitive, and there will be other companies from other countries to pick up the slack if Chinese firms won't be able to do it immediately. But what will be left in stock for HK? HK will be cut out of virtually anything important - trade, investments, financial flows. Just go back to the same fishing they used to do 100 years back? If HK "protesters" end up screwing their region, China may or may not offer any help. Or offer help with a whole lot of conditions.

It is not in the interest of Hong Kong for China to become worse. But if China want to do it themselves then the least that can be done by the people of Hong Kong would be to try to put themselves out of the sinking boat, even if doing so will also give the territory significant impact.
anrec80 wrote:
And now let's look what's going on in the world - USA (and EU up to lesser extent) produce instability by all sorts of trade barriers and sanctions (oftentimes resembling blunt radering more than anything else). More and more nations prefer to trade directly without Western financial systems involved. Siding with West all-in - in these circumstances is joining the losing team.

Let's not pretend China's belt and road scheme isn't an attempt to rebuild the Comecon against the West.

anrec80 wrote:
And what was HK doing for 20 years after the handover?

Tolerating and waiting patiently under the pretence and false hope that Chinese government will allow the system to improve until we actually see the system turn worse.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:45 am

Let's begin from here

c933103 wrote:
If one party refused to do so and try to overturn the table then of course it is very natural to seek hekp from other party who would like to stop that party from doing so.


This is not natural. This "other party" you are talking about is notorious for putting its interests first, always stands behind them very firmly, and are tough negotiators. Hence the question will be - what interests of HK will be surrendered in order to get that help in coming to power? This is kind of getting clear. Right now, there is standoff between the USA and China, and Hong Kong will certainly be used in that - to cause some economic ties breaks maybe, annoy China with some "human rights" stuff. All at the expense of Hong Kong and its prosperity, of course. Until the last Hong Kongster. The natural way - is in peaceful and law abiding matter to convince your fellow citizens to re-elect the right minded people in the government. But this is not what's happening.

c933103 wrote:
It's only Chinese government that keep arguing otherwise.


c933103 wrote:
It is in the interest of everyone on the international market to keep Hong Kong free and open.


This is just reality in politics. Everyone keeps their best interests in their mind first, not those of some "international markets". Market actors are easily replaceable. And if Hong Kong is to go south - everyone will be around like piragnas, looking what they can get for themselves. There is a lot of international trade and banking expertise to be had, connections, a few tens of thousands of extremely well paid jobs, maybe a few tens of billions of tax revenue.

Let's look how things happen if HK is to go down. All Western nations - Netherlands, France, UK, Germany, USA, even China for this reason - all drowning in debt and eager for any penny of tax revenue - will set up some special jurisdiction on some island to service this trade needs. China will also be there - but not to help or rescue, but by vacuuming out that expertise and those professionals, as much as they can get. And what's left in HK - let it go back to fishing, no more reason to care about it left. That's a common outcome of "democracy wins". In such win, everyone wins - except, and at the expense of the "democracy" that was supposed to win.

c933103 wrote:
The Chinese government is dreaming about continue to keep Hong Kong's placement as a window of trade between China and the West, while trying to exert total control on the territory, without realizing the special role of Hong Kong come from the fact that it isn't being totally controlled by the Chinese government.


See above - this is all replaceable. Even if it looks like it's not.

c933103 wrote:
Of course those companies need a functioning government and competence legal system to guarantee the safety of their property while making investment, and the lack of such after many revolutionary attempts across the globe is what caused the failure of those economic system, but as long as China isn't touching them it is not in the interest of people in the city to overturn them either,


Yes, and in revolutions, functionality of government and competence of legal system are sent down the drain pretty much. Hence perhaps choose more of an "evolutional" approach to the matters?

c933103 wrote:
so whether it's going to head to that end will totally depends on decision made by the Chinese central government.


Let's say there is a drunkard somewhere who smashed his own house after having an extra bottle. Whose fault is it now that his house is in ruins? Only his, nobody else's. Not the bartender's who sold him extra liquor. Not his neighbor's who looked at him wrong way. Only his, nobody else's. And so are consequences and problems.
 
c933103
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:51 am

anrec80 wrote:
Let's begin from here

c933103 wrote:
If one party refused to do so and try to overturn the table then of course it is very natural to seek hekp from other party who would like to stop that party from doing so.


This is not natural. This "other party" you are talking about is notorious for putting its interests first, always stands behind them very firmly, and are tough negotiators. Hence the question will be - what interests of HK will be surrendered in order to get that help in coming to power? This is kind of getting clear. Right now, there is standoff between the USA and China, and Hong Kong will certainly be used in that - to cause some economic ties breaks maybe, annoy China with some "human rights" stuff. All at the expense of Hong Kong and its prosperity, of course. Until the last Hong Kongster. The natural way - is in peaceful and law abiding matter to convince your fellow citizens to re-elect the right minded people in the government. But this is not what's happening.

What you said can only occur when people actually get to elect their government.
And given the world operates based on interest, it is only natural that groups with common interest will try to stick together in a hope of producing greater benefit mutually for each selfs.

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
It's only Chinese government that keep arguing otherwise.


c933103 wrote:
It is in the interest of everyone on the international market to keep Hong Kong free and open.


This is just reality in politics. Everyone keeps their best interests in their mind first, not those of some "international markets". Market actors are easily replaceable. And if Hong Kong is to go south - everyone will be around like piragnas, looking what they can get for themselves. There is a lot of international trade and banking expertise to be had, connections, a few tens of thousands of extremely well paid jobs, maybe a few tens of billions of tax revenue.

Let's look how things happen if HK is to go down. All Western nations - Netherlands, France, UK, Germany, USA, even China for this reason - all drowning in debt and eager for any penny of tax revenue - will set up some special jurisdiction on some island to service this trade needs. China will also be there - but not to help or rescue, but by vacuuming out that expertise and those professionals, as much as they can get. And what's left in HK - let it go back to fishing, no more reason to care about it left. That's a common outcome of "democracy wins". In such win, everyone wins - except, and at the expense of the "democracy" that was supposed to win.

China won't have to use Hong Kong if they can setup an alternative to it. The best they can use would be other existing hubs in the region.

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The Chinese government is dreaming about continue to keep Hong Kong's placement as a window of trade between China and the West, while trying to exert total control on the territory, without realizing the special role of Hong Kong come from the fact that it isn't being totally controlled by the Chinese government.


See above - this is all replaceable. Even if it looks like it's not.

They can try as they have tried a numerous times already

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
Of course those companies need a functioning government and competence legal system to guarantee the safety of their property while making investment, and the lack of such after many revolutionary attempts across the globe is what caused the failure of those economic system, but as long as China isn't touching them it is not in the interest of people in the city to overturn them either,


Yes, and in revolutions, functionality of government and competence of legal system are sent down the drain pretty much. Hence perhaps choose more of an "evolutional" approach to the matters?

You can talk about that when someone is actually going to start a revolution

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
so whether it's going to head to that end will totally depends on decision made by the Chinese central government.


Let's say there is a drunkard somewhere who smashed his own house after having an extra bottle. Whose fault is it now that his house is in ruins? Only his, nobody else's. Not the bartender's who sold him extra liquor. Not his neighbor's who looked at him wrong way. Only his, nobody else's. And so are consequences and problems.

And this is the CCP's own house.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:49 pm

c933103 wrote:
And given the world operates based on interest, it is only natural that groups with common interest will try to stick together in a hope of producing greater benefit mutually for each selfs.


Well, these things are not unlike a pig farm. Yes, in general owners and pigs have common interests - to eat well, be healthy and happy. But this is all great until deadline comes for the owner to make his 401(k) contribution. Then - our piggie goes to a processing plant. And nobody asks what are interests and desires of our piggie at that point.

Same here at this time. Yes, before common interests were seen in maintaining high living and educational standards in HK. Now, however, the USA are determined to create as many trade problems to China (and perhaps a few others) as possible. And Hong Kong is simply a great tool for that.
Last edited by anrec80 on Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:52 pm

c933103 wrote:
And this is the CCP's own house.


In house of CCP, such things do not happen. Their predecessors back in 1989 clearly (and rightfully, as subsequent history showed) demonstrated that these things aren’t flying there.
Last edited by anrec80 on Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
anrec80
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:55 pm

c933103 wrote:
You can talk about that when someone is actually going to start a revolution


Has the revolution not been under way for 6 months already?
 
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Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:13 pm

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
You can talk about that when someone is actually going to start a revolution


Has the revolution not been under way for 6 months already?

For now it is still just within the range of series of public demonstration

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
And this is the CCP's own house.


In house of CCP, such things do not happen. Their predecessors back in 1989 clearly (and rightfully, as subsequent history showed) demonstrated that these things aren’t flying there.

The political circumstances around Beijing and Hong Kong is totally different.
anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
And given the world operates based on interest, it is only natural that groups with common interest will try to stick together in a hope of producing greater benefit mutually for each selfs.


Well, these things are not unlike a pig farm. Yes, in general owners and pigs have common interests - to eat well, be healthy and happy. But this is all great until deadline comes for the owner to make his 401(k) contribution. Then - our piggie goes to a processing plant. And nobody asks what are interests and desires of our piggie at that point.

Same here at this time. Yes, before common interests were seen in maintaining high living and educational standards in HK. Now, however, the USA are determined to create as many trade problems to China (and perhaps a few others) as possible. And Hong Kong is simply a great tool for that.

It is also beneficial to Hong Kong that it can be used as such a tool as otherwise it is not possible for the current event to happen.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:05 am

c933103 wrote:
The political circumstances around Beijing and Hong Kong is totally different.


I would not bet on this. If some “ultra-liberal” hot heads decide to, say, plan a terror act against Xi Jinping or some other high ranking officials in China? Then another Tiananmen will be perfectly grounded and justified. But in 21st century - all it will take is one night long operation by China’s special forces to arrest all the leadership of “activists”, along with recent election winners.

c933103 wrote:
It is also beneficial to Hong Kong that it can be used as such a tool as otherwise it is not possible for the current event to happen.


I don’t see how can being a tool be beneficial. Tools used for different purposes, and too often abused. Say, paper cutter can cut thin paper and can last for a long time, but often they are used to cut thick cardboard, get dull as the result, and are thrown into the garbage. And when you take a paper cutter into your hands, you do not ask the paper cutter how and for what it wants to be used.

What is the most likely use of Hong Kong here? A couple come to mind - one is to sever some economic ties of China, and the other is to criticize its human rights situation. As the result of the first one - Hong Kong will lose all of its economic opportunity and place on the global stage, and deteriorate to the state of a corrupt poor fisherman village, as it was 150 years ago. Speaking of the second one - who ever cared about an opinion of a corrupt poor village?
 
c933103
Posts: 3887
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:24 pm

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
The political circumstances around Beijing and Hong Kong is totally different.


I would not bet on this. If some “ultra-liberal” hot heads decide to, say, plan a terror act against Xi Jinping or some other high ranking officials in China? Then another Tiananmen will be perfectly grounded and justified. But in 21st century - all it will take is one night long operation by China’s special forces to arrest all the leadership of “activists”, along with recent election winners.

People in Hong Kong cannot freely enter China anyway so that won't happen. And if Mr. Xi is concerned about his personal safety then he should pay more attention to the outcome created by his own policy within the mainland area of China.

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
It is also beneficial to Hong Kong that it can be used as such a tool as otherwise it is not possible for the current event to happen.


I don’t see how can being a tool be beneficial. Tools used for different purposes, and too often abused. Say, paper cutter can cut thin paper and can last for a long time, but often they are used to cut thick cardboard, get dull as the result, and are thrown into the garbage. And when you take a paper cutter into your hands, you do not ask the paper cutter how and for what it wants to be used.

What is the most likely use of Hong Kong here? A couple come to mind - one is to sever some economic ties of China, and the other is to criticize its human rights situation. As the result of the first one - Hong Kong will lose all of its economic opportunity and place on the global stage, and deteriorate to the state of a corrupt poor fisherman village, as it was 150 years ago. Speaking of the second one - who ever cared about an opinion of a corrupt poor village?

It is the fault of various governments of China that theh developed their country in a way where places like Hong Kong become necessary, and in turn making itself vulnerable to weaknesses it create. If China properly open up itself and employ independent rule of law instead of controlling the entire country as they wish and according to their own political perference that could change at anytimes and sanctioned everything they don't like then a place ike Hong Kong would never be necessary.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:35 am

c933103 wrote:
People in Hong Kong cannot freely enter China anyway so that won't happen. And if Mr. Xi is concerned about his personal safety then he should pay more attention to the outcome created by his own policy within the mainland area of China.


I hope that this does not happen as well. I am with you on this one.

c933103 wrote:
It is the fault of various governments of China that theh developed their country in a way where places like Hong Kong become necessary, and in turn making itself vulnerable to weaknesses it create. If China properly open up itself and employ independent rule of law instead of controlling the entire country as they wish and according to their own political perference that could change at anytimes and sanctioned everything they don't like then a place ike Hong Kong would never be necessary.


I am under impression you are thinking of China more than of Hong Kong. Let's say things do follow a bad scenario. Yes, China will have some problems and will have to catch up and fix quite a few undone items. It will do it, albeit with some significant expenses. But the main question stays - what's in it for Hong Kong? It certainly will not help it sustain its prosperity. There is nothing to be gained for Hong Kong. Except what some call "freedom" - at the expense of future, opportunities and prosperity going down the drain. And you've seen my view on this.
 
c933103
Posts: 3887
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:51 am

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
People in Hong Kong cannot freely enter China anyway so that won't happen. And if Mr. Xi is concerned about his personal safety then he should pay more attention to the outcome created by his own policy within the mainland area of China.


I hope that this does not happen as well. I am with you on this one.

c933103 wrote:
It is the fault of various governments of China that theh developed their country in a way where places like Hong Kong become necessary, and in turn making itself vulnerable to weaknesses it create. If China properly open up itself and employ independent rule of law instead of controlling the entire country as they wish and according to their own political perference that could change at anytimes and sanctioned everything they don't like then a place ike Hong Kong would never be necessary.


I am under impression you are thinking of China more than of Hong Kong. Let's say things do follow a bad scenario. Yes, China will have some problems and will have to catch up and fix quite a few undone items. It will do it, albeit with some significant expenses. But the main question stays - what's in it for Hong Kong? It certainly will not help it sustain its prosperity. There is nothing to be gained for Hong Kong. Except what some call "freedom" - at the expense of future, opportunities and prosperity going down the drain. And you've seen my view on this.

If those system forced China into unable to sustain its current system then it can be replaced with a better systemfor everyone both in term of economy and in term of how people are being treated.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:27 pm

c933103 wrote:
If those system forced China into unable to sustain its current system then it can be replaced with a better systemfor everyone both in term of economy and in term of how people are being treated.


Well, Hong Kong is 7.5 million people, and China is 1.2B. It’s overstatement that you can change system in China. Do you really think that any political leadership (Chinese, American, Russian, North Korean even) will allow a dependency upon anyone (let alone a city-state) that critical that it can lead to a system change? No, obviously.

All you can achieve is that some businesses in China will require some investments into new intermediate party relations. And the price for Hong Kong - economic suicide, followed by political one. Speaking of Chinese businesses - some will Look for new intermediaries and find them. Some other - learn to deal directly, without intermediaries, thus splitting Hong Kong’s margins between themselves. In either case, Hong Kong is out of that business. But the system will not change.
 
c933103
Posts: 3887
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:48 pm

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
If those system forced China into unable to sustain its current system then it can be replaced with a better systemfor everyone both in term of economy and in term of how people are being treated.


Well, Hong Kong is 7.5 million people, and China is 1.2B. It’s overstatement that you can change system in China. Do you really think that any political leadership (Chinese, American, Russian, North Korean even) will allow a dependency upon anyone (let alone a city-state) that critical that it can lead to a system change? No, obviously.

All you can achieve is that some businesses in China will require some investments into new intermediate party relations. And the price for Hong Kong - economic suicide, followed by political one. Speaking of Chinese businesses - some will Look for new intermediaries and find them. Some other - learn to deal directly, without intermediaries, thus splitting Hong Kong’s margins between themselves. In either case, Hong Kong is out of that business. But the system will not change.

It is not what Hong Kong can force China into doing what. It is what China will bring into itself by trying to maintain and expand its system
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:59 pm

c933103 wrote:
It is not what Hong Kong can force China into doing what. It is what China will bring into itself by trying to maintain and expand its system


Again, this is thinking of China and not of Hong Kong. If we put that in the picture of global trends - more and more nations tend to trade among themselves in their own currencies, and more directly for the past 5 or so years. China knows what its weaknesses and vulnerabilities are, and certainly does have game plan for those. These are not Hong Kong worries. Hong Kong should be concerned - whether it maintains its place in the world or falls onto sidelines of world’s affairs and history.

Let’s revisit our example of a drunk neighbor. I can get genuinely concerned about the guy and try to engage him into not drinking, talk to him that he should do something about this, etc. But to quit my own job, leave my own business and family for a sake of saving him? I do have such option, but isn’t it too much? I will send myself into disdain financially and personally trying to do that, and if he doesn’t want to be helped it won’t change anything anyway.
 
c933103
Posts: 3887
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:45 am

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
It is not what Hong Kong can force China into doing what. It is what China will bring into itself by trying to maintain and expand its system


Again, this is thinking of China and not of Hong Kong. If we put that in the picture of global trends - more and more nations tend to trade among themselves in their own currencies, and more directly for the past 5 or so years. China knows what its weaknesses and vulnerabilities are, and certainly does have game plan for those. These are not Hong Kong worries. Hong Kong should be concerned - whether it maintains its place in the world or falls onto sidelines of world’s affairs and history.

Let’s revisit our example of a drunk neighbor. I can get genuinely concerned about the guy and try to engage him into not drinking, talk to him that he should do something about this, etc. But to quit my own job, leave my own business and family for a sake of saving him? I do have such option, but isn’t it too much? I will send myself into disdain financially and personally trying to do that, and if he doesn’t want to be helped it won’t change anything anyway.

If Chinese government is as all mighty as you have said then they wouldn't repeatedly fails to properly understand and response to the situation in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is not a neighbor or somewhere irrelevant to China either. Hobg Kong is part of the geographical concept of China.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:05 am

c933103 wrote:
If Chinese government is as all mighty as you have said then they wouldn't repeatedly fails to properly understand and response to the situation in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is not a neighbor or somewhere irrelevant to China either. Hobg Kong is part of the geographical concept of China.


What kind of response does China need to provide? There is a Government in Hong Kong, elected by its citizens. Wellbeing of Hong Kong is their responsibility, not China’s. And it’s certainly not China’s deeds that today’s HK youth likes hanging around foreign embassies and is OK with bringing their city to be used simply as a tool. But then they shouldn’t look for anyone to be blamed when they face consequences of that - and those are always truly dire.
 
c933103
Posts: 3887
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:57 pm

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
If Chinese government is as all mighty as you have said then they wouldn't repeatedly fails to properly understand and response to the situation in Hong Kong. Hong Kong is not a neighbor or somewhere irrelevant to China either. Hobg Kong is part of the geographical concept of China.


What kind of response does China need to provide? There is a Government in Hong Kong, elected by its citizens. Wellbeing of Hong Kong is their responsibility, not China’s. And it’s certainly not China’s deeds that today’s HK youth likes hanging around foreign embassies and is OK with bringing their city to be used simply as a tool. But then they shouldn’t look for anyone to be blamed when they face consequences of that - and those are always truly dire.

If only the Hong Kong government is actually elected by citizens then we won't see what's happening in the city now???
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:52 pm

c933103 wrote:
If only the Hong Kong government is actually elected by citizens then we won't see what's happening in the city now???


Well, Carrie Lam has been a key official for a very long time now, having been re-elected a few years back. For all this time, HK society was accepting her, just as it accepted the results of recent elections, which are clearly “pro-freedom”. Had it been not the case and your officials were indeed “appointed” by foreign powers, you would have had much more severe civil standoff. The case to support the point that someone is appointing your government is simply not there.

Speaking of what’s happening now - these questions go to those who want to gain advantage for themselves by calling on foreign aid and putting state’s institutions to test, as opposed to winning in a legitimate and civilized manner, working with their voters.
 
c933103
Posts: 3887
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:24 pm

anrec80 wrote:
c933103 wrote:
If only the Hong Kong government is actually elected by citizens then we won't see what's happening in the city now???


Well, Carrie Lam has been a key official for a very long time now, having been re-elected a few years back. For all this time, HK society was accepting her, just as it accepted the results of recent elections, which are clearly “pro-freedom”. Had it been not the case and your officials were indeed “appointed” by foreign powers, you would have had much more severe civil standoff. The case to support the point that someone is appointing your government is simply not there.

Speaking of what’s happening now - these questions go to those who want to gain advantage for themselves by calling on foreign aid and putting state’s institutions to test, as opposed to winning in a legitimate and civilized manner, working with their voters.

Before being chief executive, she is a key official - a civil servant of the city. Those are apolitical positions and od course people of Hong Kong have no influence on their selection. As such the people of Hong Kong are in no position to accept nor reject her.
There have been has for her resignation in fecent months demonstration but those aren't very active because it is understood that even if she do resign, the Chinese central government would just appoint another puppet to replace her.
Yes, in normal case if similar situation hapen in any other places around the earth, it would most probably lead to what you called "more severe civil standoff" as you are describing. But Hong Kong being Hong Kong where most people in the city hate politics and have been a peaceful business colony for decades, what you see now is the level the city can attain right now. People in the city will learn and the severity will increase if resolution cannot be attained.
Peace cannot counter violence when violence are being used by the powerful without mercy. #HongKong
But there is one possible exception. That is if the world could come together and make those who use violence lose their power. #China
 
anrec80
Posts: 2243
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: I don't recognize Hong Kong these days

Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:02 pm

c933103 wrote:
Before being chief executive, she is a key official - a civil servant of the city. Those are apolitical positions and od course people of Hong Kong have no influence on their selection. As such the people of Hong Kong are in no position to accept nor reject her.
There have been has for her resignation in fecent months demonstration but those aren't very active because it is understood that even if she do resign, the Chinese central government would just appoint another puppet to replace her.


Well, whether or not she’s a puppet is hard to judge not knowing the whole formal or informal relationship story between her and Chinese leadership. But she’s HK local, and people still accept her as the leader. Speaking of “non-puppet” - first, there has to be a demand for that. Looks like some is there, given the election results. But competent leadership that has skills, knowledge and experience to avoid disaster is yet to be seen.

c933103 wrote:
People in the city will learn and the severity will increase if resolution cannot be attained.


It will be great for people in the city if they also look at the most recent experiences of other nations - what exactly do these increases in severity result. Regardless whether or not resolution is attained.

c933103 wrote:
Yes, in normal case if similar situation hapen in any other places around the earth, it would most probably lead to what you called "more severe civil standoff" as you are describing. But Hong Kong being Hong Kong where most people in the city hate politics and have been a peaceful business colony for decades, what you see now is the level the city can attain right now.


Well, sounds like your society does not have an immunity against being overruled by a small, but visible, loud and aggressive minority. And is yet to learn all the disastrous results of this. This is truly unfortunate. Hopefully there will be realization of these consequences and more resistance.

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