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BN747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:05 am

Hmmmm, who can be trusted?

trump met with Russian foreign minister Lavrov 2 days ago and two different opinions emerged...

Lavrov:No discussion of Election interference occurred.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... d-at-white

trump WH: We warned them No further Election Meddling.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... terference

...who is lying?

BN747
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seb146
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:48 am

FTMCPIUS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

House barely has the votes now and didn’t before Pelosi and co bought votes with the North American trade deal. Total joke and waste of time and energy.


BENGHAZI!!! BENGHAZI!!! BENGHAZI!!

So Pelosi and Democrats proved they are still working on The People's work. MAGA fans have been insisting nothing is getting done. No matter how many times they are shown all the House bills sitting in Senate committee because McConnell refuses to take up anything other than confirming right wing activist judges to legislate from the bench.

I agree with you that 'some' good bills are being held up in the Senate (some not so good), but you couldn't have chosen a less effective headline for your post than Benghazi.


Bills are being passed out of House committees and onto the full House for a full vote and, the ones passed, are moved on to the Senate. Yes, there are some bills that I do not agree with. But, work is getting done. The lame stream media and MAGA fans would have everyone believe that nothing is getting done. They are half right. Nothing is getting done in the Senate.

I pointed out Benghazi because of the "total joke and waste of time and energy" comment. We had endless investigations into Benghazi and nothing came of that at all.

Leaving that aside, Republicans were in control of both houses of Congress for four years. If any of them thought Joe Biden did anything wrong, they had four years to investigate, call witnesses, issue subpoenas, even go so far as to impeach and possibly remove Joe Biden if it were shown he had committed any crimes. Four years Republicans had. They are just now, with facts showing their dear leader has broken laws, they demand Joe Biden is the real criminal.
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casinterest
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:00 pm

Off to the house for the full impeachment vote.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump- ... p-n1101436

The House Judiciary Committee, in a historic vote that fell along party lines, on Friday approved articles of impeachment against President Donald Trump, charging he abused his power and obstructed Congress.

"Today is a solemn and sad day," Judiciary Committee chairman Jerry Nadler, D-N.Y., said after the vote in brief remarks to reporters. "For the third time in a little over a century and a half, the House Judiciary Committee has voted articles of impeachment against the president for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. The House will act expeditiously."
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seb146
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:44 pm

The actual trial will move to the Senate after the holiday break.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump- ... e-n1100011

Some are saying that McConnell will only allow statements from attorneys on both sides then hold a floor vote for impeachment. No witnesses. Which is what Republicans have been whining about this whole time. They were not allowed to call witnesses. Talk about a sham. At least team MAGA and their dear leader were invited to testify in hearings in the House....
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casinterest
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:16 pm

seb146 wrote:
The actual trial will move to the Senate after the holiday break.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump- ... e-n1100011

Some are saying that McConnell will only allow statements from attorneys on both sides then hold a floor vote for impeachment. No witnesses. Which is what Republicans have been whining about this whole time. They were not allowed to call witnesses. Talk about a sham. At least team MAGA and their dear leader were invited to testify in hearings in the House....


The Democrats will get what they need for the election season. A whole bunch of ads about dishonorable lack of integrity GOP members .
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BN747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:44 pm

In a matchup of Impeachments past...

Nixon - Nixon defenders paid the price and lost their shorts and seats.

Clinton - Dems supporting did not lose anything near what the GOP lost post Nixon.

trump appears to think he'll fly the Clinton route, become more popular in the aftermath of Impeachment...only one problem.

Clinton was very popular..the Criminal president is NOT! He will not like how this unfolds.

One guarantee that haters of an ignorant leader have is the assured default play that needs no input....it's a sure thing that the fat bumbling idiot playing president will commit 100s of acts of stupidity between now and Nov 2020. You can count on it...a desperate man only grows more desperate as time passes.



BN747
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seb146
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:33 pm

casinterest wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The actual trial will move to the Senate after the holiday break.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump- ... e-n1100011

Some are saying that McConnell will only allow statements from attorneys on both sides then hold a floor vote for impeachment. No witnesses. Which is what Republicans have been whining about this whole time. They were not allowed to call witnesses. Talk about a sham. At least team MAGA and their dear leader were invited to testify in hearings in the House....


The Democrats will get what they need for the election season. A whole bunch of ads about dishonorable lack of integrity GOP members .


People are starting to get wise to their lying and dishonest tactics to the point where some are talking about forcing McConnell to recuse himself from the trial. Instead of working with Schumer, as he should, McConnell is going to be working with the White House.
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Aaron747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:53 am

For those in the GOP that assert impeachment is an invalidation or “undo” of the last election: Trump was elected 36 months ago, with a majority in 23 states, 7 pluralities, and 2.9m fewer popular votes than his principal opponent.

Nixon: left office 21 months after winning majorities in 49 states and was up by +18m popular votes against his principal opponent.
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EA CO AS
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:27 am

BN747 wrote:
Clinton was very popular..the Criminal president is NOT!


Clinton actually committed a crime. Can you tell me, specifically, what crime President Trump is being accused of committing in the articles of impeachment?

I'll wait.
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casinterest
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:35 am

EA CO AS wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Clinton was very popular..the Criminal president is NOT!


Clinton actually committed a crime. Can you tell me, specifically, what crime President Trump is being accused of committing in the articles of impeachment?

I'll wait.


Tell us the crime, and then tell me why Trump is too scared to testify or send his associates to testify.
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BN747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:40 am

EA CO AS wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Clinton was very popular..the Criminal president is NOT!


Clinton actually committed a crime. Can you tell me, specifically, what crime President Trump is being accused of committing in the articles of impeachment?

I'll wait.


If you reality wanted know..you'd google 'trump crimes'..

..but you are not serious with this question because if you did, you'd accept US Intel that Russian Interfered on trump's behalf.
But none of you believe that just like he doesn't and sides with Putin, which by default you supporters of the traitor fall right in line.

As that question with preface that 'I really don't know much about American politics, so what crime has he committed;...but you can't employ that approach because your virulent posdt of support are on record and archived.

So as I said, I've no idea why you're feigning concern.

BN747
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EA CO AS
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:46 am

BN747 wrote:
I've no idea why you're feigning concern.


I'm not feigning anything. I'm genuinely concerned that articles of impeachment have been drafted that reflect no crime at all. Clearly, you're unable to speak to what crime occurred as well.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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EA CO AS
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:49 am

casinterest wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Clinton was very popular..the Criminal president is NOT!


Clinton actually committed a crime. Can you tell me, specifically, what crime President Trump is being accused of committing in the articles of impeachment?

I'll wait.


Tell us the crime, and then tell me why Trump is too scared to testify or send his associates to testify.


The crime committed by Bill Clinton was lying to a grand jury under oath. He lost his law license over it.

President Trump has exercised executive privilege, which isn't criminal, nor obstructive. The Legislative and Executive branches have equal, yet separate powers, and cannot tell the other what to do. If Congress believes that the exercise of this privilege is being abused, they have a remedy for that - taking it to court, letting the Legislative branch weigh in. Yet they've chosen not to do so.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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Aaron747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:50 am

EA CO AS wrote:
BN747 wrote:
I've no idea why you're feigning concern.


I'm not feigning anything. I'm genuinely concerned that articles of impeachment have been drafted that reflect no crime at all. Clearly, you're unable to speak to what crime occurred as well.


You’re conflating things and talking about a strictly criminal matter. Impeachment, as defined by Hamilton in Federalist 56, is a political question - namely the political crime of violating public trust.

Abuse of power is the original definition of ‘high crime’ in 18th century parlance, and golly gee that’s the first article. Obstructing Congress (and the Mueller investigation) is also a violation of public trust since the separation of powers is sacrosanct in our system. If the WH believed that the very exercise of oversight was in bad faith, THEY should seek redress in court and comply with subpoenas in the meantime, as everyone else would be required to do. The current actions are unprecedented.
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EA CO AS
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:56 am

Aaron747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
BN747 wrote:
I've no idea why you're feigning concern.


I'm not feigning anything. I'm genuinely concerned that articles of impeachment have been drafted that reflect no crime at all. Clearly, you're unable to speak to what crime occurred as well.


You’re conflating things and talking about a strictly criminal matter. Impeachment, as defined by Hamilton in Federalist 56, is a political question - namely the political crime of violating public trust.



While impeachment is a political issue, the public does expect that a criminal act or acts take place to warrant the removal of a sitting president; just choosing to do it because you don't like the guy and happen to have the numbers on your side is a dangerous precedent that will backfire on the Democrats in 2020, and will encourage the GOP to employ the same tactic at some point down the line if they don't learn the lesson the Democrats will on Election Day.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
BN747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:03 am

EA CO AS wrote:
casinterest wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Clinton actually committed a crime. Can you tell me, specifically, what crime President Trump is being accused of committing in the articles of impeachment?

I'll wait.


Tell us the crime, and then tell me why Trump is too scared to testify or send his associates to testify.


The crime committed by Bill Clinton was lying to a grand jury under oath. He lost his law license over it.

President Trump has exercised executive privilege, which isn't criminal, nor obstructive. The Legislative and Executive branches have equal, yet separate powers, and cannot tell the other what to do. If Congress believes that the exercise of this privilege is being abused, they have a remedy for that - taking it to court, letting the Legislative branch weigh in. Yet they've chosen not to do so.



The country has a president who can find the time to attack a 16yo girl over her Climate fears but will not tell the American public he is spearheading the fight to keep American elections safe!

Why won't he?

Because he knows he benefited from it before.

Your Clinton comment is exactly why he was impeached - that is a Rule of Law violation powering Impeachment, by the Republicans.

Now, if the Republicans are sticklers on the Rule of Law...they'd be throwing balls a fire at trump for his legal dodging and violations, they would not hesitate to bring Amoulment charges...but they will look the other way. Because a Tabloid Impeachment is far more damaging to America than refusing to obey lawful subpoenas, to obstruct the US Congresses' right to check the executive branch, Michael Cohen is his Co-conspirator doing time as he should also be doing as he continued the crime while seated in the WH.

Now turn and use that strict 'lying to a Grand Jury' firepower to enforce trump's despicable disregard of our justice system and skirts it's laws.

It please get off that stupid 'You just don't like him BS'...MOST Americans don't like him because he's a proven pathological liar, so dangerous that it is being woven into American foreign polic (obviously such grade of liars do not bother in the least particularly when one is running the country)..

If you can address any of this, then ask your what crimes regarding Ukraine, happy to oblige (all of that is here in multiple threads).

BN747
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EA CO AS
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:17 am

BN747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Tell us the crime, and then tell me why Trump is too scared to testify or send his associates to testify.


The crime committed by Bill Clinton was lying to a grand jury under oath. He lost his law license over it.

President Trump has exercised executive privilege, which isn't criminal, nor obstructive. The Legislative and Executive branches have equal, yet separate powers, and cannot tell the other what to do. If Congress believes that the exercise of this privilege is being abused, they have a remedy for that - taking it to court, letting the Legislative branch weigh in. Yet they've chosen not to do so.



The country has a president who can find the time to attack a 16yo girl over her Climate fears but will not tell the American public he is spearheading the fight to keep American elections safe!

Why won't he?

Because he knows he benefited from it before.

Your Clinton comment is exactly why he was impeached - that is a Rule of Law violation powering Impeachment, by the Republicans.

Now, if the Republicans are sticklers on the Rule of Law...they'd be throwing balls a fire at trump for his legal dodging and violations, they would not hesitate to bring Amoulment charges...but they will look the other way. Because a Tabloid Impeachment is far more damaging to America than refusing to obey lawful subpoenas, to obstruct the US Congresses' right to check the executive branch, Michael Cohen is his Co-conspirator doing time as he should also be doing as he continued the crime while seated in the WH.

Now turn and use that strict 'lying to a Grand Jury' firepower to enforce trump's despicable disregard of our justice system and skirts it's laws.

It please get off that stupid 'You just don't like him BS'...MOST Americans don't like him because he's a proven pathological liar, so dangerous that it is being woven into American foreign polic (obviously such grade of liars do not bother in the least particularly when one is running the country)..

If you can address any of this, then ask your what crimes regarding Ukraine, happy to oblige (all of that is here in multiple threads).

BN747


How predictably boring; you can't answer my question, so you'll pivot to other things like the Emoluments Clause, which has never given rise to any legal cases of note, and it has never been defined or even meaningfully addressed by the Supreme Court. Every once in awhile I forget why you're on my ignore list; thanks for the reminder. Resuming my BN-free life now....
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Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:24 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

I'm not feigning anything. I'm genuinely concerned that articles of impeachment have been drafted that reflect no crime at all. Clearly, you're unable to speak to what crime occurred as well.


You’re conflating things and talking about a strictly criminal matter. Impeachment, as defined by Hamilton in Federalist 56, is a political question - namely the political crime of violating public trust.



While impeachment is a political issue, the public does expect that a criminal act or acts take place to warrant the removal of a sitting president; just choosing to do it because you don't like the guy and happen to have the numbers on your side is a dangerous precedent that will backfire on the Democrats in 2020, and will encourage the GOP to employ the same tactic at some point down the line if they don't learn the lesson the Democrats will on Election Day.


Public ignorance (or feigned indifference by WH staffers/GOP sycophants) of the Constitution and context of ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’ is not an excuse for Congress to fail to execute oversight of executive conduct. The political crime of abuse of power was committed - if it wasn’t, then let the four cabinet officials barred from subpoena compliance testify and prove otherwise.

GOPers who still care about rule of law demand no less:

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politic ... rom-trump/

“The president doesn’t own the government, and he’s not above the law,” said Chris Truax, spokesman for the group. “President Trump has been given every opportunity to answer the charges against him. He demands friendly witnesses, yet refuses to allow his most loyal supporters to testify. He complains the proceedings are unfair, yet refuses to allow his lawyers to participate in the hearings. If President Trump really could prove he is innocent of the impeachment charges against him, he would have made some effort to do so by now.”
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BN747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:27 am

EA CO AS wrote:
BN747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

The crime committed by Bill Clinton was lying to a grand jury under oath. He lost his law license over it.

President Trump has exercised executive privilege, which isn't criminal, nor obstructive. The Legislative and Executive branches have equal, yet separate powers, and cannot tell the other what to do. If Congress believes that the exercise of this privilege is being abused, they have a remedy for that - taking it to court, letting the Legislative branch weigh in. Yet they've chosen not to do so.



The country has a president who can find the time to attack a 16yo girl over her Climate fears but will not tell the American public he is spearheading the fight to keep American elections safe!

Why won't he?

Because he knows he benefited from it before.

Your Clinton comment is exactly why he was impeached - that is a Rule of Law violation powering Impeachment, by the Republicans.

Now, if the Republicans are sticklers on the Rule of Law...they'd be throwing balls a fire at trump for his legal dodging and violations, they would not hesitate to bring Amoulment charges...but they will look the other way. Because a Tabloid Impeachment is far more damaging to America than refusing to obey lawful subpoenas, to obstruct the US Congresses' right to check the executive branch, Michael Cohen is his Co-conspirator doing time as he should also be doing as he continued the crime while seated in the WH.

Now turn and use that strict 'lying to a Grand Jury' firepower to enforce trump's despicable disregard of our justice system and skirts it's laws.

It please get off that stupid 'You just don't like him BS'...MOST Americans don't like him because he's a proven pathological liar, so dangerous that it is being woven into American foreign polic (obviously such grade of liars do not bother in the least particularly when one is running the country)..

If you can address any of this, then ask your what crimes regarding Ukraine, happy to oblige (all of that is here in multiple threads).

BN747


How predictably boring; you can't answer my question, so you'll pivot to other things like the Emoluments Clause, which has never given rise to any legal cases of note, and it has never been defined or even meaningfully addressed by the Supreme Court. Every once in awhile I forget why you're on my ignore list; thanks for the reminder. Resuming my BN-free life now....



Even more predictable is your rapid evac of your 'obey the law ' campaign you waged against Clinton above...you see? You are not sincere about your allegiance to law and order, just like Lindsey Graham
(against Clinton) I must place my loyalty of country above party - NOW - Ummm ...show me Quid Quo Pro and I'll say he's in deep trouble..shown by Sondland - and he goes ghost and now we know "I must place my loyalty of country above party" doesn't mean shit to him and apparently you.

BN747
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EA CO AS
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:46 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Public ignorance (or feigned indifference by WH staffers/GOP sycophants) of the Constitution and context of ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’ is not an excuse for Congress to fail to execute oversight of executive conduct. The political crime of abuse of power was committed - if it wasn’t, then let the four cabinet officials barred from subpoena compliance testify and prove otherwise.


The president and his legal team believe there’s no need to legitimize such patently absurd claims by having anyone appear, hence the claim of executive privilege. If the House Democrats were so sure they had solid ground, they’d have taken this to court so the judicial branch could determine whether privilege applied, and if they found against the executive branch, issue a court order compelling those called to appear.

But they didn’t bother taking this to court, likely because they knew they’d lose due to separation of powers.

Also, “abuse of power” is a nebulous term that isn’t defined in black and white. That’s why for so long, House Democrats focused on the supposed “quid pro quo” and then went to the extent of holding focus groups of independent voters to determine which term made them more likely to support impeachment; “quid pro quo,” “extortion,” or “bribery.” They settled on bribery because it polled the best with their focus groups, and is actually mentioned by the founding fathers as a reason to impeach a sitting president. Right up until they realized there was more evidence supporting bribery by their current frontrunner in the primaries than by the president! And that’s why “bribery” went quietly into the night, never to be mentioned in the articles of impeachment again.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
BN747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:02 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Public ignorance (or feigned indifference by WH staffers/GOP sycophants) of the Constitution and context of ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’ is not an excuse for Congress to fail to execute oversight of executive conduct. The political crime of abuse of power was committed - if it wasn’t, then let the four cabinet officials barred from subpoena compliance testify and prove otherwise.


The president and his legal team believe there’s no need to legitimize such patently absurd claims by having anyone appear, hence the claim of executive privilege. If the House Democrats were so sure they had solid ground, they’d have taken this to court so the judicial branch could determine whether privilege applied, and if they found against the executive branch, issue a court order compelling those called to appear.


Oh sure as if the Courts are expeditious in any shape or form...wait for the courts, the wait for them to force the legal definition of some knew act only to be appealed...by then it's 2022, US Military has been privatized and replaced by Erik Prince's Blackwater 2.0, the FBI dismantled, corner block thuds are now the police.

Ye ol' Run out the clock and change the rules at every turn strategy


EA CO AS wrote:
Also, “abuse of power” is a nebulous term that isn’t defined in black and white. That’s why for so long, House Democrats focused on the supposed “quid pro quo” and then went to the extent of holding focus groups of independent voters to determine which term made them more likely to support impeachment; “quid pro quo,” “extortion,” or “bribery.” They settled on bribery because it polled the best with their focus groups, and is actually mentioned by the founding fathers as a reason to impeach a sitting president. Right up until they realized there was more evidence supporting bribery by their current frontrunner in the primaries than by the president! And that’s why “bribery” went quietly into the night, never to be mentioned in the articles of impeachment again.


Is that right? Now what happens when term 'snowflake' loses it's luster?

BN747
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Aaron747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:13 am

EA CO AS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Public ignorance (or feigned indifference by WH staffers/GOP sycophants) of the Constitution and context of ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’ is not an excuse for Congress to fail to execute oversight of executive conduct. The political crime of abuse of power was committed - if it wasn’t, then let the four cabinet officials barred from subpoena compliance testify and prove otherwise.


The president and his legal team believe there’s no need to legitimize such patently absurd claims by having anyone appear, hence the claim of executive privilege. If the House Democrats were so sure they had solid ground, they’d have taken this to court so the judicial branch could determine whether privilege applied, and if they found against the executive branch, issue a court order compelling those called to appear.

But they didn’t bother taking this to court, likely because they knew they’d lose due to separation of powers.

Also, “abuse of power” is a nebulous term that isn’t defined in black and white. That’s why for so long, House Democrats focused on the supposed “quid pro quo” and then went to the extent of holding focus groups of independent voters to determine which term made them more likely to support impeachment; “quid pro quo,” “extortion,” or “bribery.” They settled on bribery because it polled the best with their focus groups, and is actually mentioned by the founding fathers as a reason to impeach a sitting president. Right up until they realized there was more evidence supporting bribery by their current frontrunner in the primaries than by the president! And that’s why “bribery” went quietly into the night, never to be mentioned in the articles of impeachment again.


Subpoenas don’t work on the basis of whether or not parties think they are ‘patently absurd’ - they must be objected to properly in court, not the other way ‘round. It’s sad to watch people who used to stand for reasonable conservative values ally themselves with those who think rule of law is a joke. Sadder still that only a handful on the right still think those things matter above ‘owning libs’ or ‘MAGA’ or whatever else qualifies as catchphrase nonsense du jour.

So, are you of the opinion the organization in the linked Dallas News article are barking up the wrong tree? We don’t need to hear anything from those guys, huh? Funny, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton etc. staffers complied with subpoenas - but I guess that figures since even where there was wrongdoing in those administrations, patriots reigned.
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seb146
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:17 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Public ignorance (or feigned indifference by WH staffers/GOP sycophants) of the Constitution and context of ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’ is not an excuse for Congress to fail to execute oversight of executive conduct. The political crime of abuse of power was committed - if it wasn’t, then let the four cabinet officials barred from subpoena compliance testify and prove otherwise.


The president and his legal team believe there’s no need to legitimize such patently absurd claims by having anyone appear, hence the claim of executive privilege.


Only the president can claim executive privilege. Not his children, not his business associates. In certain and specific cases, his personal lawyer could claim executive privilege with certain documents.

Keeping all that in mind, you go ahead and ignore multiple subpoenas because they are "patently absurd" and see what happens. See how the court reacts.

No one is above the law. No one.
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seb146
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:30 pm

McConnell is on record as saying he will do whatever the White House wants. I heard a lawyer on the radio yesterday explain this is like the foreman in the Manson trial saying he would do whatever Manson wanted.

I have a point of order question:

There needs to be 51 votes for procedural issues but 67 for conviction or acquittal. What if there are only 60 votes for acquittal?
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NIKV69
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:44 pm

seb146 wrote:

There needs to be 51 votes for procedural issues but 67 for conviction or acquittal. What if there are only 60 votes for acquittal?


If the 67 votes are not met he is acquitted. :wave:
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DL717
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:30 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

House barely has the votes now and didn’t before Pelosi and co bought votes with the North American trade deal. Total joke and waste of time and energy.


BENGHAZI!!! BENGHAZI!!! BENGHAZI!!

So Pelosi and Democrats proved they are still working on The People's work. MAGA fans have been insisting nothing is getting done. No matter how many times they are shown all the House bills sitting in Senate committee because McConnell refuses to take up anything other than confirming right wing activist judges to legislate from the bench.

I agree with you that 'some' good bills are being held up in the Senate (some not so good), but you couldn't have chosen a less effective headline for your post than Benghazi.


I’m trying to figure out how he got from selling votes via the North American trade deal to Benghazi. :?
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DL717
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:32 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
BN747 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

The crime committed by Bill Clinton was lying to a grand jury under oath. He lost his law license over it.

President Trump has exercised executive privilege, which isn't criminal, nor obstructive. The Legislative and Executive branches have equal, yet separate powers, and cannot tell the other what to do. If Congress believes that the exercise of this privilege is being abused, they have a remedy for that - taking it to court, letting the Legislative branch weigh in. Yet they've chosen not to do so.



The country has a president who can find the time to attack a 16yo girl over her Climate fears but will not tell the American public he is spearheading the fight to keep American elections safe!

Why won't he?

Because he knows he benefited from it before.

Your Clinton comment is exactly why he was impeached - that is a Rule of Law violation powering Impeachment, by the Republicans.

Now, if the Republicans are sticklers on the Rule of Law...they'd be throwing balls a fire at trump for his legal dodging and violations, they would not hesitate to bring Amoulment charges...but they will look the other way. Because a Tabloid Impeachment is far more damaging to America than refusing to obey lawful subpoenas, to obstruct the US Congresses' right to check the executive branch, Michael Cohen is his Co-conspirator doing time as he should also be doing as he continued the crime while seated in the WH.

Now turn and use that strict 'lying to a Grand Jury' firepower to enforce trump's despicable disregard of our justice system and skirts it's laws.

It please get off that stupid 'You just don't like him BS'...MOST Americans don't like him because he's a proven pathological liar, so dangerous that it is being woven into American foreign polic (obviously such grade of liars do not bother in the least particularly when one is running the country)..

If you can address any of this, then ask your what crimes regarding Ukraine, happy to oblige (all of that is here in multiple threads).

BN747


How predictably boring; you can't answer my question, so you'll pivot to other things like the Emoluments Clause, which has never given rise to any legal cases of note, and it has never been defined or even meaningfully addressed by the Supreme Court. Every once in awhile I forget why you're on my ignore list; thanks for the reminder. Resuming my BN-free life now....


When I signed in, it got a lot quieter. :lol:
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:51 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

There needs to be 51 votes for procedural issues but 67 for conviction or acquittal. What if there are only 60 votes for acquittal?


If the 67 votes are not met he is acquitted. :wave:


But the stench of Impeachment is forever stuck to him til he leaves this planet.

The Impeachment stick on a very unpopular president (the Russian traitor) does NOT bode well

vs

The Impeachment stench of a very very popular president (Clinton)...

..and your thinking that they are the same is beyond delusional.

Even more so, you guys think this criminal lesson would teach him to straighten up and fly right...but his past has shown us 'he does not learn..not a thing'
...and more stupid antics are already lined up.

BN747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:10 pm

BN747 wrote:
But the stench of Impeachment is forever stuck to him til he leaves this planet.

The Impeachment stick on a very unpopular president (the Russian traitor) does NOT bode well

vs

The Impeachment stench of a very very popular president (Clinton)...

..and your thinking that they are the same is beyond delusional.

BN747


The premise of the two is the same. Trump will come out of this stronger. Impeachment the way it was done only serves the frothing at the mouth looney fringe who want him gone and need medication to get through the day while he is still president. I am actually glad he was impeached by the fringe lawmakers. The general election will be a reminder of how the electorate in this country thinks and it's not Nadler, Pelosi, etc.

Game on. :cool2:
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:12 am

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
But the stench of Impeachment is forever stuck to him til he leaves this planet.

The Impeachment stick on a very unpopular president (the Russian traitor) does NOT bode well

vs

The Impeachment stench of a very very popular president (Clinton)...

..and your thinking that they are the same is beyond delusional.

BN747


The premise of the two is the same. Trump will come out of this stronger. Impeachment the way it was done only serves the frothing at the mouth looney fringe who want him gone and need medication to get through the day while he is still president. I am actually glad he was impeached by the fringe lawmakers. The general election will be a reminder of how the electorate in this country thinks and it's not Nadler, Pelosi, etc.

Game on. :cool2:


1)The premise of the two is the same. - FALSE. chasing was there sex or not equal to obstructing laws/congress and blackmailing a friendly nation for personal gain are only the same in the mind of an insane person.

2) Trump will come out of this stronger - FALSE - Impeachment is already driving him nuttier than he already was - his tweets point directly to his increasing insanity.

3) Impeachment the way it was done only serves the frothing at the mouth looney fringe who want him gone and need medication to get through the day while he is still president. - And yelling screaming Doug Collins & Gym Jordan are sane to that same mind.

4) The general election will be a reminder of how the electorate in this country thinks and it's not Nadler, Pelosi, etc - FALSE - 50% of America sids with Nadler/Pelosi...not you.

I know in your mind 'what is'..really isn't true to you.

But yes, Most of America DOES NOT like it's leader sucking up to Russia, Impeachment will not diminish that 1 iota. Anyone not sucking Russian phallics will win....your guys is just gonna suck harder because he knows personally he would not have in the WH without them...and now that is showing, esp. w Lavrov in his office this past Wednesday.

Watch...more to come for sure.

BN747
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seb146
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:43 am

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

There needs to be 51 votes for procedural issues but 67 for conviction or acquittal. What if there are only 60 votes for acquittal?


If the 67 votes are not met he is acquitted. :wave:


It means enough Republicans actually care about the Constitution they voted to convict. That is my question. Is it really a victory if they can't even get a majority?
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seb146
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:47 am

NIKV69 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
But the stench of Impeachment is forever stuck to him til he leaves this planet.

The Impeachment stick on a very unpopular president (the Russian traitor) does NOT bode well

vs

The Impeachment stench of a very very popular president (Clinton)...

..and your thinking that they are the same is beyond delusional.

BN747


The premise of the two is the same. Trump will come out of this stronger. Impeachment the way it was done only serves the frothing at the mouth looney fringe who want him gone and need medication to get through the day while he is still president. I am actually glad he was impeached by the fringe lawmakers. The general election will be a reminder of how the electorate in this country thinks and it's not Nadler, Pelosi, etc.

Game on. :cool2:


"Impeachment the way it was done..." meaning releasing transcripts, holding hearings live on TV and letting both sides question witnesses. Don't blame Democrats because the loony right kept going on unhinged rants about conspiracy theories that had been debunked and fact checked as lies. That is not "liberal's" fault. Republicans had every opportunity to ask pointed and relevent questions to witnesses. Instead, they went off on baseless and lunatic rants. More angry white men shaking their fists at clouds......
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casinterest
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:48 am

EA CO AS wrote:
casinterest wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Clinton actually committed a crime. Can you tell me, specifically, what crime President Trump is being accused of committing in the articles of impeachment?

I'll wait.


Tell us the crime, and then tell me why Trump is too scared to testify or send his associates to testify.


The crime committed by Bill Clinton was lying to a grand jury under oath. He lost his law license over it.

President Trump has exercised executive privilege, which isn't criminal, nor obstructive. The Legislative and Executive branches have equal, yet separate powers, and cannot tell the other what to do. If Congress believes that the exercise of this privilege is being abused, they have a remedy for that - taking it to court, letting the Legislative branch weigh in. Yet they've chosen not to do so.


He lied to a Grand Jury because he testified. Why won't Trump testify ? Brave enough to attack a 16 year old, but not brave enough to answer for his improper handling of the office of the President.

Impeachment doesn't require a crime. It requires the agreement that he abused the power of the office, which is what Clinton did by lying.
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:27 pm

To me, one reason for the Republicans seeking a short, no witnesses, Senate trial is to make sure it is forgotten in a short time by the news media and voters as go into the primary season. Having no witnesses also stops the Democrats from having witnesses. Republicans will use their acquittal in its campaigns to hurt Democratic party Presidential and Congressional candidates, giving strong support to themselves, calling Impeachment a witch hunt and worse.
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:36 pm

BN747 wrote:

Clinton was very popular..the Criminal president is NOT! He will not like how this unfolds.


Trump, the GOP, and his adamant followers claim that all of the polls are fake and flawed and they don't believe them. They seem to think that at least 70% of the voters are in their back pockets. Polls show something like only 30% are Trump followers.
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seb146
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:04 pm

ltbewr wrote:
To me, one reason for the Republicans seeking a short, no witnesses, Senate trial is to make sure it is forgotten in a short time by the news media and voters as go into the primary season. Having no witnesses also stops the Democrats from having witnesses. Republicans will use their acquittal in its campaigns to hurt Democratic party Presidential and Congressional candidates, giving strong support to themselves, calling Impeachment a witch hunt and worse.


Name calling is all they have. Ever since their dear leader started campaigning way back in the summer of 2016, all he has done is whine and complain about "fake news" and "fake media" and "dishonest media" and "crooked media" to every outlet that does not praise him. Every outlet that shows the emperor has no clothes are lying and dishonest and his followers think he should be able to shut down media outlets.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 925536002/

This is what dictators do.
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seb146
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:07 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

House barely has the votes now and didn’t before Pelosi and co bought votes with the North American trade deal. Total joke and waste of time and energy.


BENGHAZI!!! BENGHAZI!!! BENGHAZI!!

So Pelosi and Democrats proved they are still working on The People's work. MAGA fans have been insisting nothing is getting done. No matter how many times they are shown all the House bills sitting in Senate committee because McConnell refuses to take up anything other than confirming right wing activist judges to legislate from the bench.

I agree with you that 'some' good bills are being held up in the Senate (some not so good), but you couldn't have chosen a less effective headline for your post than Benghazi.


I am still waiting on proof there was quid pro quo between Joe Biden and the government of Ukraine worthy of putting Joe Biden on trial.
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SanDiegoLover
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 5:15 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Clinton was very popular..the Criminal president is NOT!


Clinton actually committed a crime. Can you tell me, specifically, what crime President Trump is being accused of committing in the articles of impeachment?

I'll wait.


I see you’re up to date on the latest wingnut talking points. Of course the worst thing a President can do is to commit a crime against the Constitution ittself. Bribery wasn’t even a statutory crime yet when the Constitution was drafted, as there were no criminal codes. Trump violates the absolute bedrock foundation of our democratic order by undermine free and fair elections. The founders were most concerned with outside influence of our electoral process, and yet because Russia helped your side, you don’t care. I’m betting you’ll care if the Democratic nominee is elected and we find out China, Iran, North Korea, and Mexico all interfered to help Democrats.

https://theintercept.com/2019/10/10/trump-crimes-law/
 
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:52 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

I see you’re up to date on the latest wingnut talking points. Of course the worst thing a President can do is to commit a crime against the Constitution ittself. Bribery wasn’t even a statutory crime yet when the Constitution was drafted, as there were no criminal codes. Trump violates the absolute bedrock foundation of our democratic order by undermine free and fair elections. The founders were most concerned with outside influence of our electoral process, and yet because Russia helped your side, you don’t care. I’m betting you’ll care if the Democratic nominee is elected and we find out China, Iran, North Korea, and Mexico all interfered to help Democrats.

https://theintercept.com/2019/10/10/trump-crimes-law/
[/quote]

Exactly, however that means nothing to people who 'say they are 100% Law & Order types...that drop/forget all that law & order belief if their cult leader says so...he did and they listened.

EstherLouise wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Clinton was very popular..the Criminal president is NOT! He will not like how this unfolds.


..and now a FOX News poll has 'Impeachment' support is gaining steam has gone from 50% to 54%...
https://www.newsweek.com/fox-news-poll- ... ce-1477340

But who trust anything from FOX?

Oddly the FOX news loyalist will interpret that as 54% support for the clown.

...and because of his mouth and dumpster that serves as a brain (aka he will continue to open his mouth and permit garbage to escape) ...support for Impeachment will only go in one direction...UP!


BN747
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casinterest
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:53 pm

Image
Image



The majority want the president impeached.
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BN747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:22 pm

casinterest wrote:
Image
Image



The majority want the president impeached.


It just disturbing that 41% of so-called Americans are that ignorant (by choice) of constitutional processes.

...but good to know at least half the country are sensible citizens who do.

BN747
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:15 am

It is impossible anymore to rely on polls. We can't even get an accurate read from the internet. So many forums and sites with trolls and bots and people who just willfully ignore facts. I think a lot of people are meh about the whole thing. I think a majority understand that crimes were committed but don't say anything because why bother? Money is what rules politics, so the average American can not be bothered. Politics is a rich man's game. Whether he is impeached and removed or not, life will go on and things will not change much on a day-to-day basis.
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tommy1808
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:54 am

seb146 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Public ignorance (or feigned indifference by WH staffers/GOP sycophants) of the Constitution and context of ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’ is not an excuse for Congress to fail to execute oversight of executive conduct. The political crime of abuse of power was committed - if it wasn’t, then let the four cabinet officials barred from subpoena compliance testify and prove otherwise.


The president and his legal team believe there’s no need to legitimize such patently absurd claims by having anyone appear, hence the claim of executive privilege.


Only the president can claim executive privilege. Not his children, not his business associates. In certain and specific cases, his personal lawyer could claim executive privilege with certain documents.

Keeping all that in mind, you go ahead and ignore multiple subpoenas because they are "patently absurd" and see what happens. See how the court reacts.

No one is above the law. No one.


The "Argument" collapses even earlier. You can not know if a question falls under executive privilege before it is ask. You can not claim executive privilege for a document before it is subpoenaed

Witnesses can only claim executive from the witness chair by definition.

But i guess in Trump world "state your name" violated executive privilege. One the US has an AG again, i do hope this is not just brushed aside but that anyone not showing up to their interview is indicted and send to prison.

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EA CO AS
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:35 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
You can not know if a question falls under executive privilege before it is ask. You can not claim executive privilege for a document before it is subpoenaed


The executive branch can claim privilege over whatever they feel is appropriate; it’s up to the others to argue and decide it is or isn’t. In court. The branches of government are equal, so the legislative branch cannot force the executive branch to comply in a dispute; they’d have to seek relief from the judicial branch, and the founding fathers intended it to be this way.
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seb146
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:08 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
You can not know if a question falls under executive privilege before it is ask. You can not claim executive privilege for a document before it is subpoenaed


The executive branch can claim privilege over whatever they feel is appropriate; it’s up to the others to argue and decide it is or isn’t. In court. The branches of government are equal, so the legislative branch cannot force the executive branch to comply in a dispute; they’d have to seek relief from the judicial branch, and the founding fathers intended it to be this way.


Two problems with this:

1. The courts are stacked with right wing activist judges
2. Clinton could have very easily claimed executive privilege with his relationship with Monica Lewinsky leaving Republicans to keep investigating and wasting taxpayer dollars.

I am extremely concerned by 1. This means the current occupant can murder anyone and the courts can say "meh...." and let him continue. The self proclaimed most transparent government in history can continue to hide everything and continue to lie. This should be alarming to ALL Americans. It is not, but it should. This is NOT what the Founding Fathers intended. They never wanted a king. That is why there are systems of checks and balances. That is why there are three co-equal branches of government.
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seb146
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:11 pm

Not to worry, MAGA fans! Russia has your back!

https://www.thedailybeast.com/russias-s ... nSW_qd0uWo

Your dear leader is Russia's agent, according to state media. And, bonus, they offered him asylum!
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:12 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
The executive branch can claim privilege over whatever they feel is appropriate; it’s up to the others to argue and decide it is or isn’t. In court. The branches of government are equal, so the legislative branch cannot force the executive branch to comply in a dispute; they’d have to seek relief from the judicial branch, and the founding fathers intended it to be this way.


Amazing how over two centuries ago people got it right for today's political problems. "Abuse of congress" would be if the executive doesn't go to court. They did. That article of impeachment is completely bogus.
 
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:15 pm

seb146 wrote:
The courts are stacked with right wing activist judges


First, you’re confused; it’s the judges on the left who are activists that make up the law as they go.

Second, Clinton couldn’t have claimed executive privilege as what he lied about under oath had nothing to do with executing his job as president.

Third, as President Obama famously said, “Elections have consequences,” and President Trump has been quietly appointing conservative, originalist judges to the federal benches since he took office. Want to change that? Win a presidential election.
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casinterest
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:13 pm

According to 1999 Mitch McConnell, Trump should be impeached.

"His cold, calculated actions betrayed the trust vested in him by the American people and the high office of the presidency. The President of the United States looked 270 million Americans in the eye, and lied--deliberately and methodically. He took an oath to faithfully execute the laws of this nation, and he violated that oath. He pledged to be the nation's chief law enforcement officer, and he violated that pledge. He took an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and he willfully and repeatedly violated that oath."


https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/ ... index.html
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casinterest
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Re: The Impeachment Hearings

Mon Dec 16, 2019 7:16 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The courts are stacked with right wing activist judges


First, you’re confused; it’s the judges on the left who are activists that make up the law as they go.

Second, Clinton couldn’t have claimed executive privilege as what he lied about under oath had nothing to do with executing his job as president.

Third, as President Obama famously said, “Elections have consequences,” and President Trump has been quietly appointing conservative, originalist judges to the federal benches since he took office. Want to change that? Win a presidential election.


First. We have judges to interpret the laws, otherwise we could use a computer if the law was perfectly written. "Activist, and Make up laws" are code words used by people that worship Liberal city based conservative networks.

second: Clinton lied under oath and took it seriously enough to accept the punishment. Trump won't even go under oath, and the GOP cheers for it.

Third. Elections have consequences. How about 2018 when the House turned over.
Originalist judges leave open the gaps for dishonorable people to slop on by. But I guess the GOP will be happy when all those loopholes are closed by new regulations and laws right?
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