A mass shooting occurred at a Wal-Mart in Duncan, Oklahoma on Monday that left 3 people dead. After police arrived at the scene after responding to a call, they found two people dead in the front seat of a car and another person dead outside of a car. A motive for the shooting has not been released and the man turned the gun toward himself after shooting the two victims. Schools in Duncan, Oklahoma were placed on lockdown and a portion of the parking lot where the shooting took place was cordoned off. This is the latest of several mass shooting that have taken place in the United States over the past few days and tools place days after the reopening of the Wal-Mart in El Paso, Texas that has a mass shooting in August.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 228530002/

Based on what is reported in the linked story, that really, really sounds like a "crime of passion/jilted lover/jealous ex" situation rather than a "mass shooting" because the latter term, to me at least, implies a certain amount of disregard on the part of the shooter for who gets in the line of fire. In this case the shooter and both the initial victims were all known to each other and the shooter did not open fire on a random crowd of strangers.

This does seem like traditional family type angry shootings, far more common than mass shootings. That's the cost of ease of buying guns. Only question I have is where the gun was bought. It would be very ironic if Wal-Mart sold the gun.

BTW, comments on Tulsa TV had local people talking about the shooter - saying it was totally out of character, he was a very nice guy and had spent a lot of time giving to the community.

Yup. Blame guns or those nasty bullet manufacturers for the acts of unhinged people is how the MSM will report it. Of course if a responsible citizen with a firearm had neutralized (shot) or disarmed the perp saving his life and innocent victims lives before he killed someone, there would be crickets from the MSM.

stratclub wrote:

Yup. Blame guns or those nasty bullet manufacturers for the acts of unhinged people is how the MSM will report it. Of course if a responsible citizen with a firearm had neutralized (shot) or disarmed the perp saving his life and innocent victims lives before he killed someone, there would be crickets from the MSM.

...Yeah. Where WAS the good guy with a gun?

Francoflier wrote:

...Yeah. Where WAS the good guy with a gun?

The same place they normally are. Somewhere else.

scbriml wrote:

Francoflier wrote:

...Yeah. Where WAS the good guy with a gun?

The same place they normally are. Somewhere else.

The police weren't there, either. Guess it is time to disband them. There were no doctors or nurses on scene either. Might as well shut the hospitals down.

Once again, the use of a gun to kill or injure people to deal with an 'issue'. We have to change the mentality, the culture of our country and society to move away from gun violence to resolve personal issues. More gun laws won't do it and can't be put in due to current politics.

The US has such an unbelievably sick, obsessive addiction to guns. That alone is the mental illness.

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prev ... 1819580358

stratclub wrote:

Yup. Blame guns or those nasty bullet manufacturers for the acts of unhinged people is how the MSM will report it. Of course if a responsible citizen with a firearm had neutralized (shot) or disarmed the perp saving his life and innocent victims lives before he killed someone, there would be crickets from the MSM.

For all the guns in Texas and Oklahoma, you'd think there would be more "good guys with guns" able to stop this, NAY...deter it.

N583JB wrote:

The police weren't there, either. Guess it is time to disband them. There were no doctors or nurses on scene either. Might as well shut the hospitals down.

The military wasn't there either. Time to do away with our armed forces then. Our strongman president wasn't there either. Time for him to quit.

einsteinboricua wrote:

stratclub wrote:

Yup. Blame guns or those nasty bullet manufacturers for the acts of unhinged people is how the MSM will report it. Of course if a responsible citizen with a firearm had neutralized (shot) or disarmed the perp saving his life and innocent victims lives before he killed someone, there would be crickets from the MSM.

For all the guns in Texas and Oklahoma, you'd think there would be more "good guys with guns" able to stop this, NAY...deter it.

N583JB wrote:

The police weren't there, either. Guess it is time to disband them. There were no doctors or nurses on scene either. Might as well shut the hospitals down.

The military wasn't there either. Time to do away with our armed forces then. Our strongman president wasn't there either. Time for him to quit.

Instances of defensive gun use dramatically outnumber gun homicides. Seems as if the numbers speak for themselves...more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns by a huge margin.

TSS wrote:

Based on what is reported in the linked story, that really, really sounds like a "crime of passion/jilted lover/jealous ex" situation rather than a "mass shooting" .

Is there a meaningful difference? Shootings out of anger/passion are probably the vast majority of gun homicides.

N583JB wrote:

Instances of defensive gun use dramatically outnumber gun homicides. Seems as if the numbers speak for themselves...more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns by a huge margin.

Source for this?

einsteinboricua wrote:

stratclub wrote:

Yup. Blame guns or those nasty bullet manufacturers for the acts of unhinged people is how the MSM will report it. Of course if a responsible citizen with a firearm had neutralized (shot) or disarmed the perp saving his life and innocent victims lives before he killed someone, there would be crickets from the MSM.

For all the guns in Texas and Oklahoma, you'd think there would be more "good guys with guns" able to stop this, NAY...deter it.

N583JB wrote:

The police weren't there, either. Guess it is time to disband them. There were no doctors or nurses on scene either. Might as well shut the hospitals down.

The military wasn't there either. Time to do away with our armed forces then. Our strongman president wasn't there either. Time for him to quit.

Saw on the local news last night that one of the witnesses said a man who was conceal carrying pulled his gun on the shooter and told him to stop before the shooter turned the gun on himself, but I can't find anything confirming this on network/mainstream news outlets. The witness was an Iraq vet and said he was about to do the same when he saw this other guy step in.

Definitely shouldn't be called a mass shooting. This was a crime of passion.

einsteinboricua wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Instances of defensive gun use dramatically outnumber gun homicides. Seems as if the numbers speak for themselves...more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns by a huge margin.

Source for this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/ ... 76391b299a

"Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008."

N583JB wrote:

einsteinboricua wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Instances of defensive gun use dramatically outnumber gun homicides. Seems as if the numbers speak for themselves...more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns by a huge margin.

Source for this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/ ... 76391b299a

"Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008."

LOL a survey

The title of this thread should be changed. This was not a mass shooting. It was a murder suicide by someone who couldn't handle seeing his ex with another man. It is this further toxic propaganda that sets us back.

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

einsteinboricua wrote:

Source for this?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/ ... 76391b299a

"Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008."

LOL a survey

So you are saying that the CDC isn't a credible source?

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulhsieh/ ... 76391b299a

"Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008."

LOL a survey

So you are saying that the CDC isn't a credible source?

The CDC can definitely be a credible source, and it's quite up front as to what this survey does and does not do.

The CDC can be credible, but only if it aligns with their viewpoints.

Some funny arguments here, something isn't present, so it is not necessary to have it?

The number of homicide in usa should put it on the list where travelers get warning to go to.

MaverickM11 wrote:

TSS wrote:

Based on what is reported in the linked story, that really, really sounds like a "crime of passion/jilted lover/jealous ex" situation rather than a "mass shooting" .

Is there a meaningful difference? Shootings out of anger/passion are probably the vast majority of gun homicides.

Are you serious? There is a HUGE difference between getting shot by a nut-job who opened fire on a random group of people standing in line at, say, a movie theater (a "Mass Shooting"), in which you are in no way responsible for what happened, versus getting shot because you were messing around with someone who has a very jealous ex (or worse yet, current) partner (a "Crime of Passion"), in which case you knew very well the danger you were putting yourself in and chose to take the chance anyway because you felt it was worth the risk. That's like the difference between getting unexpectedly mauled by an escaped lion versus getting mauled by a lion after you willfully and knowingly climbed the fence at the zoo and entered the lion's cage.

olle wrote:

The number of homicide in usa should put it on the list where travelers get warning to go to.

Yep, and Sweden should be added to that list as well due to the upsurge of bombings in recent years there.

Francoflier wrote:

stratclub wrote:

Of course if a responsible citizen with a firearm had neutralized (shot) or disarmed the perp saving his life and innocent victims lives before he killed someone, there would be crickets from the MSM.

...Yeah. Where WAS the good guy with a gun?

Right here...
"
-- May 3, 2017, Arlington, Texas: James Jones went to the Zona Caliente sports bar and began yelling incoherently. When the manager, Cesar Perez, went to talk to him and calm him down, Jones pulled out a gun and shot Perez dead, then started shooting wildly at patrons. Luckily, a concealed carry holder happened to be having dinner at Zona Caliente with his wife that night. He shot Jones dead before anyone else was hurt.

-- Aug. 7, 2016, Linndale, Ohio: Two men getting into their car in a Dollar Store parking lot were held up by a masked armed robber. As the gunman, Varshaun Stephen Dukes, was rifling through one of the men's pockets, the other pulled out his concealed handgun and told him to stop. The robber fired at the man but missed. The concealed carry permit holder shot back, putting a .45 bullet in the robber's brain. (Naturally, he survived.) All of this was captured on the Dollar Store's surveillance camera, so no charges were brought against the armed citizen.

-- June 26, 2016, Lyman, South Carolina: Jody Ray Thompson opened fire in the crowded Playoffz nightclub, injuring three. But before he could kill anyone, he was shot in the leg by a club patron with a concealed carry license. Police arrested Thompson without further incident and no one died.

-- May 31, 2015, Conyers, Georgia: After arguing with a liquor store clerk, Jeffrey Scott Pitts returned with a gun and began shooting at everyone in the store, killing two. Todd Scott, who was there to buy a six-pack, returned fire. The crazed gunman fled, went home and shot his parents. "He was very surprised that he was not the only one in the store with a gun," Scott said. Apart from the two people killed in Pitts' opening barrage, no one died. Scott saved the lives of everyone else in that store.

-- July 24, 2014, Darby, Pennsylvania: Felon and psychiatric patient Richard Plotts pulled out a gun at Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital, murdered his caseworker and wounded his psychiatrist, Dr. Lee Silverman. He would have kept shooting -- Plotts had 39 more bullets -- but the doctor pulled out his own gun and fired back, in violation of the hospital's no-guns rule. No one else died.

-- Jan. 11, 2014, Portland, Oregon: After being turned away from a strip club in Portland, repeat felon Thomas Elliott Hjelmeland came back, wearing a clown mask, guns blazing. He hit a waitress, a security guard and a patron before a bouncer, concealed carry permit holder Jonathan Baer, returned fire and ended the attack. No one died.

-- Dec. 16, 2012, San Antonio, Texas: Jesus Manuel Garcia began shooting at the Santikos Mayan Palace movie theater from a nearby restaurant and continued shooting as he walked toward the theater. An armed off-duty cop shot Garcia four times, stopping the attack. No one died.

-- March 25, 2018, Boiling Springs, South Carolina: Jesse Gates kicked in a side door of the Southside Freewill Baptist Church during services, raised his gun to shoot -- but was grabbed and held at gunpoint by the reverend's grandson, a concealed carry permit holder. No one was hurt. Spartanburg County Sheriff Chuck Wright said, "I like the fact that a concealed weapons permit holder was prepared to protect the worshipers."

It's seems like it's been awhile since we've heard of a crazed gunman being quickly disarmed at a school. Maybe because we've been trying to stop mass shootings with gun-free school zones.

Here are some older school shooting cases that had comparatively happy endings.

-- In 2001, 15-year-old Charles Williams tried to shoot up his high school in Santee, California, but luckily, an off-duty cop happened to be bringing his daughter to school that day. He ended Williams' rampage with his own gun, holding him until more police arrived. Two fatalities.

-- In 1998, a 14-year-old student began shooting up a school dance being held at a restaurant in Edinboro, Pennsylvania. The restaurant owner pulled out a shotgun, keeping the death toll to one.

-- In 1997, a student shot several people at his high school in Pearl, Mississippi, killing two, and was headed to the junior high, until assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieved a .45 pistol from his car and pointed it at the gunman's head. Another massacre averted.

-- In 1993, student Mark Duong pulled out a gun during his disciplinary hearing at Weber State University in Ogden, Utah, wounding three people, including the police officer, who, luckily, had been asked to attend the hearing. The officer immediately shot the psychotic student dead, saving the lives of everyone in the room. "

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2018-05-23.html

afcjets wrote:

Francoflier wrote:

stratclub wrote:

Of course if a responsible citizen with a firearm had neutralized (shot) or disarmed the perp saving his life and innocent victims lives before he killed someone, there would be crickets from the MSM.

...Yeah. Where WAS the good guy with a gun?

Right here...
"
-- May 3, 2017, Arlington, Texas: James Jones went to the Zona Caliente sports bar and began yelling incoherently. When the manager, Cesar Perez, went to talk to him and calm him down, Jones pulled out a gun and shot Perez dead, then started shooting wildly at patrons. Luckily, a concealed carry holder happened to be having dinner at Zona Caliente with his wife that night. He shot Jones dead before anyone else was hurt.

-- Aug. 7, 2016, Linndale, Ohio: Two men getting into their car in a Dollar Store parking lot were held up by a masked armed robber. As the gunman, Varshaun Stephen Dukes, was rifling through one of the men's pockets, the other pulled out his concealed handgun and told him to stop. The robber fired at the man but missed. The concealed carry permit holder shot back, putting a .45 bullet in the robber's brain. (Naturally, he survived.) All of this was captured on the Dollar Store's surveillance camera, so no charges were brought against the armed citizen.

-- June 26, 2016, Lyman, South Carolina: Jody Ray Thompson opened fire in the crowded Playoffz nightclub, injuring three. But before he could kill anyone, he was shot in the leg by a club patron with a concealed carry license. Police arrested Thompson without further incident and no one died.

-- May 31, 2015, Conyers, Georgia: After arguing with a liquor store clerk, Jeffrey Scott Pitts returned with a gun and began shooting at everyone in the store, killing two. Todd Scott, who was there to buy a six-pack, returned fire. The crazed gunman fled, went home and shot his parents. "He was very surprised that he was not the only one in the store with a gun," Scott said. Apart from the two people killed in Pitts' opening barrage, no one died. Scott saved the lives of everyone else in that store.

-- July 24, 2014, Darby, Pennsylvania: Felon and psychiatric patient Richard Plotts pulled out a gun at Mercy Fitzgerald Hospital, murdered his caseworker and wounded his psychiatrist, Dr. Lee Silverman. He would have kept shooting -- Plotts had 39 more bullets -- but the doctor pulled out his own gun and fired back, in violation of the hospital's no-guns rule. No one else died.

-- Jan. 11, 2014, Portland, Oregon: After being turned away from a strip club in Portland, repeat felon Thomas Elliott Hjelmeland came back, wearing a clown mask, guns blazing. He hit a waitress, a security guard and a patron before a bouncer, concealed carry permit holder Jonathan Baer, returned fire and ended the attack. No one died.

-- Dec. 16, 2012, San Antonio, Texas: Jesus Manuel Garcia began shooting at the Santikos Mayan Palace movie theater from a nearby restaurant and continued shooting as he walked toward the theater. An armed off-duty cop shot Garcia four times, stopping the attack. No one died.

-- March 25, 2018, Boiling Springs, South Carolina: Jesse Gates kicked in a side door of the Southside Freewill Baptist Church during services, raised his gun to shoot -- but was grabbed and held at gunpoint by the reverend's grandson, a concealed carry permit holder. No one was hurt. Spartanburg County Sheriff Chuck Wright said, "I like the fact that a concealed weapons permit holder was prepared to protect the worshipers."

It's seems like it's been awhile since we've heard of a crazed gunman being quickly disarmed at a school. Maybe because we've been trying to stop mass shootings with gun-free school zones.

Here are some older school shooting cases that had comparatively happy endings.

-- In 2001, 15-year-old Charles Williams tried to shoot up his high school in Santee, California, but luckily, an off-duty cop happened to be bringing his daughter to school that day. He ended Williams' rampage with his own gun, holding him until more police arrived. Two fatalities.

-- In 1998, a 14-year-old student began shooting up a school dance being held at a restaurant in Edinboro, Pennsylvania. The restaurant owner pulled out a shotgun, keeping the death toll to one.

-- In 1997, a student shot several people at his high school in Pearl, Mississippi, killing two, and was headed to the junior high, until assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieved a .45 pistol from his car and pointed it at the gunman's head. Another massacre averted.

-- In 1993, student Mark Duong pulled out a gun during his disciplinary hearing at Weber State University in Ogden, Utah, wounding three people, including the police officer, who, luckily, had been asked to attend the hearing. The officer immediately shot the psychotic student dead, saving the lives of everyone in the room. "

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2018-05-23.html

A dozen examples going back 20 years from dried out old witch dot com

MaverickM11 wrote:

A dozen examples going back 20 years from dried out old witch dot com

There is nothing to roll on the floor and laugh about mass shootings. Hundreds of peoples lives were saved in those examples but as mentioned above, the mainstream media is not at all interested.

afcjets wrote:

There is nothing to roll on the floor and laugh about mass shootings. Hundreds of peoples lives were saved in those examples but as mentioned above, the mainstream media is not at all interested.

And hundreds of thousands have been killed in stupid home accidents or domestic violence. You'll never have the annual number of "Good Guys With a Gun" killing more bad guys with a gun than accidental and domestic deaths.

The number of wounded (for any reason) heading to the ER for emergency care DOES however the need fort a small tax of each round of ammunition to PAY for them treatment of those wounded by a gun. Right now that cost is simply to your health insurance, or your employer's health insurance. Local TV just talked to a minor being short in the face and is being treated in a local hospital. Cost?:. $10K to $50K , with luck. And there are stories, one after another, on a daily basis.

And, of course there is the long lis of families who have lost a parent and provider. Maybe double that per round tax as our tax dollars have been increased to cover their support.

Maybe we just need to look at the total overall, long term costs that guns and ammunition costs the public and apply a tax to cover those costs.

Ken777 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

There is nothing to roll on the floor and laugh about mass shootings. Hundreds of peoples lives were saved in those examples but as mentioned above, the mainstream media is not at all interested.

And hundreds of thousands have been killed in stupid home accidents or domestic violence. You'll never have the annual number of "Good Guys With a Gun" killing more bad guys with a gun than accidental and domestic deaths.

If that's happening anyway allowing concealed carry would have zero effect on home accidents and domestic violence, but would both deter and stop mass shootings in their tracks. Nothing would get covered on the national level and eventually the disturbed high school student will have no recent mass shooting to inspire him.

afcjets wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

A dozen examples going back 20 years from dried out old witch dot com

There is nothing to roll on the floor and laugh about mass shootings. Hundreds of peoples lives were saved in those examples but as mentioned above, the mainstream media is not at all interested.

No one is laughing at mass shootings other than republicans. I *am* laughing at your sad attempt to justify the “good guy with a gun” myth.

MaverickM11 wrote:

No one is laughing at mass shootings other than republicans. I *am* laughing at your sad attempt to justify the “good guy with a gun” myth.

Exactly which one(s) of the 12 examples given are you disputing?

afcjets wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

No one is laughing at mass shootings other than republicans. I *am* laughing at your sad attempt to justify the “good guy with a gun” myth.

Exactly which one(s) of the 12 examples given are you disputing?

The point is that the GoodGuyWithAGun™ only shows up once out of every 1000 times he's needed.

afcjets wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

No one is laughing at mass shootings other than republicans. I *am* laughing at your sad attempt to justify the “good guy with a gun” myth.

Exactly which one(s) of the 12 examples given are you disputing?

Probably a million + gun deaths since the 90s and all you have are a dozen anecdotal incidents, when there are probably a dozen incidents in the last year of a shooter being stopped by hand. Compelling

MaverickM11 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

No one is laughing at mass shootings other than republicans. I *am* laughing at your sad attempt to justify the “good guy with a gun” myth.

Exactly which one(s) of the 12 examples given are you disputing?

Probably a million + gun deaths since the 90s and all you have are a dozen anecdotal incidents, when there are probably a dozen incidents in the last year of a shooter being stopped by hand. Compelling

Sources?

trpmb6 wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

afcjets wrote:

Exactly which one(s) of the 12 examples given are you disputing?

Probably a million + gun deaths since the 90s and all you have are a dozen anecdotal incidents, when there are probably a dozen incidents in the last year of a shooter being stopped by hand. Compelling

Sources?

Source for what? 30 years x 30-40,000 gun deaths is easily 1M plus. There are plenty of examples of people stopping shootings without a gun. Here's one from a month ago:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/video-hig ... n-hugs-him

I'm sure between the tens of thousands of attempted shootings in the last year, you can scare up a dozen examples where people were stopped without a gun.

speedygonzales wrote:

afcjets wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

No one is laughing at mass shootings other than republicans. I *am* laughing at your sad attempt to justify the “good guy with a gun” myth.

Exactly which one(s) of the 12 examples given are you disputing?

The point is that the GoodGuyWithAGun™ only shows up once out of every 1000 times he's needed.

Actually, per a recent CDC study, instances of defensive gun use dramatically outnumber gun deaths of any cause.

N583JB wrote:

speedygonzales wrote:

afcjets wrote:

Exactly which one(s) of the 12 examples given are you disputing?

The point is that the GoodGuyWithAGun™ only shows up once out of every 1000 times he's needed.

Actually, per a recent CDC study, instances of defensive gun use dramatically outnumber gun deaths of any cause.

As already mentioned, it's not a study but a survey, and pretty meaningless

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

speedygonzales wrote:

The point is that the GoodGuyWithAGun™ only shows up once out of every 1000 times he's needed.

Actually, per a recent CDC study, instances of defensive gun use dramatically outnumber gun deaths of any cause.

As already mentioned, it's not a study but a survey, and pretty meaningless

It is only meaningless if you seek to discredit it. Similar studies have found similar results.

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

Actually, per a recent CDC study, instances of defensive gun use dramatically outnumber gun deaths of any cause.

As already mentioned, it's not a study but a survey, and pretty meaningless

It is only meaningless if you seek to discredit it. Similar studies have found similar results.

It was meaningless when you brought it up a dozen posts ago in this same thread too. And since it's a survey, you have no clue whether the respondent is being truthful, and even if they're being truthful, whether a gun would have made a meaningful difference in the outcome.

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

As already mentioned, it's not a study but a survey, and pretty meaningless

It is only meaningless if you seek to discredit it. Similar studies have found similar results.

It was meaningless when you brought it up a dozen posts ago in this same thread too. And since it's a survey, you have no clue whether the respondent is being truthful, and even if they're being truthful, whether a gun would have made a meaningful difference in the outcome.

I suppose if you don't like the results of the surveys you could tell yourself that there was some sort of vast conspiracy amongst the many random Americans surveyed to lie to the CDC over a period of 3 years. I'm not much of a conspiracy but, but to each their own.

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

It is only meaningless if you seek to discredit it. Similar studies have found similar results.

It was meaningless when you brought it up a dozen posts ago in this same thread too. And since it's a survey, you have no clue whether the respondent is being truthful, and even if they're being truthful, whether a gun would have made a meaningful difference in the outcome.

I suppose if you don't like the results of the surveys you could tell yourself that there was some sort of vast conspiracy amongst the many random Americans surveyed to lie to the CDC over a period of 3 years. I'm not much of a conspiracy but, but to each their own.

No dear, not a conspiracy, a survey--ie they asked a bunch of people decades ago if they used a gun defensively in the past year, and some people said yes. We have no idea whether they were telling the truth, remembering correctly, or whether the "defensive use" was against a robber or a squirrel. And ultimately, and most importantly, we have no idea whether those "defensive uses" are offset by the massive increase in suicides and homicides that come with those guns. And just about every study and experience world wide has proven that fewer guns correlates with fewer gun deaths.

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

It was meaningless when you brought it up a dozen posts ago in this same thread too. And since it's a survey, you have no clue whether the respondent is being truthful, and even if they're being truthful, whether a gun would have made a meaningful difference in the outcome.

I suppose if you don't like the results of the surveys you could tell yourself that there was some sort of vast conspiracy amongst the many random Americans surveyed to lie to the CDC over a period of 3 years. I'm not much of a conspiracy but, but to each their own.

No dear, not a conspiracy, a survey--ie they asked a bunch of people decades ago if they used a gun defensively in the past year, and some people said yes. We have no idea whether they were telling the truth, remembering correctly, or whether the "defensive use" was against a robber or a squirrel. And ultimately, and most importantly, we have no idea whether those "defensive uses" are offset by the massive increase in suicides and homicides that come with those guns. And just about every study and experience world wide has proven that fewer guns correlates with fewer gun deaths.

The fact that multiple "surveys" from multiple sources have come to the same conclusion (defensive gun usage far outnumbers gun homicides), it seems as if all evidence we have points to the efficacy of firearms as instruments of self defense.

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

I suppose if you don't like the results of the surveys you could tell yourself that there was some sort of vast conspiracy amongst the many random Americans surveyed to lie to the CDC over a period of 3 years. I'm not much of a conspiracy but, but to each their own.

No dear, not a conspiracy, a survey--ie they asked a bunch of people decades ago if they used a gun defensively in the past year, and some people said yes. We have no idea whether they were telling the truth, remembering correctly, or whether the "defensive use" was against a robber or a squirrel. And ultimately, and most importantly, we have no idea whether those "defensive uses" are offset by the massive increase in suicides and homicides that come with those guns. And just about every study and experience world wide has proven that fewer guns correlates with fewer gun deaths.

The fact that multiple "surveys" from multiple sources have come to the same conclusion (defensive gun usage far outnumbers gun homicides), it seems as if all evidence we have points to the efficacy of firearms as instruments of self defense.

And what do you think that means when most of the rest of the world lacks both the defensive gun use and gun deaths that the US has?

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

No dear, not a conspiracy, a survey--ie they asked a bunch of people decades ago if they used a gun defensively in the past year, and some people said yes. We have no idea whether they were telling the truth, remembering correctly, or whether the "defensive use" was against a robber or a squirrel. And ultimately, and most importantly, we have no idea whether those "defensive uses" are offset by the massive increase in suicides and homicides that come with those guns. And just about every study and experience world wide has proven that fewer guns correlates with fewer gun deaths.

The fact that multiple "surveys" from multiple sources have come to the same conclusion (defensive gun usage far outnumbers gun homicides), it seems as if all evidence we have points to the efficacy of firearms as instruments of self defense.

And what do you think that means when most of the rest of the world lacks both the defensive gun use and gun deaths that the US has?

It means that most of the rest of the world lacks the crime that the US has.

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

The fact that multiple "surveys" from multiple sources have come to the same conclusion (defensive gun usage far outnumbers gun homicides), it seems as if all evidence we have points to the efficacy of firearms as instruments of self defense.

And what do you think that means when most of the rest of the world lacks both the defensive gun use and gun deaths that the US has?

It means that most of the rest of the world lacks the crime that the US has.

So the tens of thousands of gun deaths every year are a side effect of “defensive gun” use?

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

And what do you think that means when most of the rest of the world lacks both the defensive gun use and gun deaths that the US has?

It means that most of the rest of the world lacks the crime that the US has.

So the tens of thousands of gun deaths every year are a side effect of “defensive gun” use?

The vast majority of gun deaths are suicides. The majority of the rest are gang or drug-related homicides. With estimates of defensive gun use ranging from 6 to 7 figures per year (depending on the source), it is clear that firearms save more lives than they take, at least in the United States.

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

It means that most of the rest of the world lacks the crime that the US has.

So the tens of thousands of gun deaths every year are a side effect of “defensive gun” use?

The vast majority of gun deaths are suicides. The majority of the rest are gang or drug-related homicides. With estimates of defensive gun use ranging from 6 to 7 figures per year (depending on the source), it is clear that firearms save more lives than they take, at least in the United States.

So you’re just pulling stuff out of your butt now. Cool.

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

So the tens of thousands of gun deaths every year are a side effect of “defensive gun” use?

The vast majority of gun deaths are suicides. The majority of the rest are gang or drug-related homicides. With estimates of defensive gun use ranging from 6 to 7 figures per year (depending on the source), it is clear that firearms save more lives than they take, at least in the United States.

So you’re just pulling stuff out of your butt now. Cool.

You can stick your fingers in your ears all you want. Facts don't care about your feelings.

It scary to know that people can kill anyone and anywhere that they want. What is happening in the world lately?

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

The vast majority of gun deaths are suicides. The majority of the rest are gang or drug-related homicides. With estimates of defensive gun use ranging from 6 to 7 figures per year (depending on the source), it is clear that firearms save more lives than they take, at least in the United States.

So you’re just pulling stuff out of your butt now. Cool.

You can stick your fingers in your ears all you want. Facts don't care about your feelings.

Yah very little of that is backed by reality dear. What you're ultimately saying is that the nebulous "defensive gun use" comes at the expense of 30-40 thousand gun deaths annually. Not quite the deal you think it is.

MaverickM11 wrote:

N583JB wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

So you’re just pulling stuff out of your butt now. Cool.

You can stick your fingers in your ears all you want. Facts don't care about your feelings.

Yah very little of that is backed by reality dear. What you're ultimately saying is that the nebulous "defensive gun use" comes at the expense of 30-40 thousand gun deaths annually. Not quite the deal you think it is.

There are roughly 15,000 gun homicides each year in the US. Even conservative estimates place the number of instances of defensive gun use at many times that number. Seems like the facts speak for themselves. Of course, if you don't want to own a gun, no one is forcing you to buy one.