Dieuwer
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US House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:57 pm

Along party lines, 24 - 10 voted in favor of legalizing marijuana. Senate might be a problem though.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/house ... 2019-11-19

Sounds like a good first step to me.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title edited for clarity
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:11 pm

Um...this is out of committee and into the House floor for a full vote eventually. I'd be surprised if only 34 House representatives were present for a full House vote (that's not even a quorum).
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stl07
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:53 pm

luckyone wrote:
stl07 wrote:
luckyone wrote:
Those three things are not at all related to each other, as they've all existed independently of each other for quite some time. Cannabis in and of itself is no more a problem medically or legally than alcohol and tobacco (which really isn't a legal problem).

Actually they are, just not in an Amerocentric way. Legal weed in Cali has caused destabilization in Mexico due to the market collapsing, which led to gangs fighting each other and the Fundamentalist Morman (separate from the Mormon church) kids getting shot at. But I doubt that's when any of the fools in Congress were thinking about

So which is it? Are we causing gang wars in Mexico due to our vast consumption of illegal substances, namely meth, cocaine, and heroin? Or are we causing gang wars by legalizing marijuana?

Both
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N757ST
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:21 pm

Never smoked in my life, and I can’t. (DOT testing) If they legalize it, no problem. My only pet peeve is driving down the van wick and constantly smelling pot by all the drivers smoking it. At that point what is the difference from what they are doing and DUI?
 
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seb146
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:07 am

I have a legal or business question:

This bill passed out of committee and most likely to be passed in the House, will vacate many low level marijuana convictions and set up banking regulations for the marijuana industry. In Oregon and Colorado, there are counties who have opted to not allow marijuana dispensaries in their counties. They reap the tax benefits but do not contribute to that particular tax base. What are your thoughts on this?
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TSS
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:30 am

In Alabama and Georgia individual cigarette packs carry two official tax stickers indicating that taxes have been paid on that pack: One from the state and a separate one from the county. If a county chose not to allow the sale of cigarettes, they'd miss out on tax income from same. Is marijuana taxed similarly in Oregon and/or Colorado or is it taxed at the state level only?
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ltbewr
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:41 am

This proposed bill, voted by the House committee who worked on it, would end the 100 year illegal status of Marijuana and related products on the Federal level. It would allow for state licensed sellers of such products to be able to use banks, to process money through banks, pay taxes by check or electronic transfers, allow for businesses to borrow monies for capital and running financing. It would also reverse convictions for small amounts of pot, something especially to the benefits of Black citizens. As noted, there would be a Federal tax on pot products to fund programs for those badly needed to counter the 'War on Drugs'. Importation and Interstate sale of pot and pot products could still be illegal by Federal law.

This 'decrimilization' would be the most important step needed to end the prohibition as to pot and pot products, improving the lives of millions.
 
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seb146
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:23 am

TSS wrote:
In Alabama and Georgia individual cigarette packs carry two official tax stickers indicating that taxes have been paid on that pack: One from the state and a separate one from the county. If a county chose not to allow the sale of cigarettes, they'd miss out on tax income from same. Is marijuana taxed similarly in Oregon and/or Colorado or is it taxed at the state level only?


Marijuana and tobacco are both taxed at the state level. Packs of cigarettes have the tax seal from whatever state they were sold but not the county. Some counties charge an additional tax on tobacco. I have not seen two stamps on cigarette packs, but I quit smoking years ago. There is just one state stamp on the brosband's cigarettes. State tax is rolled (no pun intended) into the final price of marijuana products in OR, WA, and CA.

AFAIK, marijuana is taxed and regulated by Oregon Liquor Control Commission (OLCC) but some areas have made it difficult to open a dispensary. Wallowa County along the Hells Canyon in northeast Oregon just opened their first dispensary this year. Grant County banned dispensaries after the passage of Measure 91 legalizing pot. That judgement was overturned.
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N757ST
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:39 am

seb146 wrote:
I have a legal or business question:

This bill passed out of committee and most likely to be passed in the House, will vacate many low level marijuana convictions and set up banking regulations for the marijuana industry. In Oregon and Colorado, there are counties who have opted to not allow marijuana dispensaries in their counties. They reap the tax benefits but do not contribute to that particular tax base. What are your thoughts on this?


It won’t vacate convictions. Whether it’s legal now or not, when they committed the act it was illegal.
 
tommy1808
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:48 am

N757ST wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I have a legal or business question:

This bill passed out of committee and most likely to be passed in the House, will vacate many low level marijuana convictions and set up banking regulations for the marijuana industry. In Oregon and Colorado, there are counties who have opted to not allow marijuana dispensaries in their counties. They reap the tax benefits but do not contribute to that particular tax base. What are your thoughts on this?


It won’t vacate convictions. Whether it’s legal now or not, when they committed the act it was illegal.


That doesn't stop anyone from writing an amnesty for prior convictions into the law, at least if certain conditions are met. According to the link up top language like that is included.

Best regards
Thomas
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mbmbos
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:16 pm

N757ST wrote:
Never smoked in my life, and I can’t. (DOT testing) If they legalize it, no problem. My only pet peeve is driving down the van wick and constantly smelling pot by all the drivers smoking it. At that point what is the difference from what they are doing and DUI?


Good question. Since the U.S. has labeled marijuana a class 1 drug and has refused to allow the CDC to study it, we have very little information about the degree to which marijuana use impairs judgement, motor control, response time, etc. We don't know how many crashes and other incidents are triggered by marijuana use. Frankly, we have very few stats.

Although it's probably unwise to drive under the influence of any mind altering substance, I find it hard to believe driving while high compares to driving while drunk in any appreciable way. Marijuana certainly doesn't fuel aggression and general volatility as alcohol often does. But it would be great if we made laws based on science and research.

There's an old saying:

Drunk drivers run red lights.
Pot smokers sit at stop signs waiting for them to turn green.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
FatCat
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:28 pm

mbmbos wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Never smoked in my life, and I can’t. (DOT testing) If they legalize it, no problem. My only pet peeve is driving down the van wick and constantly smelling pot by all the drivers smoking it. At that point what is the difference from what they are doing and DUI?


Good question. Since the U.S. has labeled marijuana a class 1 drug and has refused to allow the CDC to study it, we have very little information about the degree to which marijuana use impairs judgement, motor control, response time, etc. We don't know how many crashes and other incidents are triggered by marijuana use. Frankly, we have very few stats.

Although it's probably unwise to drive under the influence of any mind altering substance, I find it hard to believe driving while high compares to driving while drunk in any appreciable way. Marijuana certainly doesn't fuel aggression and general volatility as alcohol often does. But it would be great if we made laws based on science and research.

There's an old saying:

Drunk drivers run red lights.
Pot smokers sit at stop signs waiting for them to turn green.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/dru ... ed-driving
https://academic.oup.com/jat/article/39/4/251/750800
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23220273
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mbmbos
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:36 pm

FatCat wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Never smoked in my life, and I can’t. (DOT testing) If they legalize it, no problem. My only pet peeve is driving down the van wick and constantly smelling pot by all the drivers smoking it. At that point what is the difference from what they are doing and DUI?


Good question. Since the U.S. has labeled marijuana a class 1 drug and has refused to allow the CDC to study it, we have very little information about the degree to which marijuana use impairs judgement, motor control, response time, etc. We don't know how many crashes and other incidents are triggered by marijuana use. Frankly, we have very few stats.

Although it's probably unwise to drive under the influence of any mind altering substance, I find it hard to believe driving while high compares to driving while drunk in any appreciable way. Marijuana certainly doesn't fuel aggression and general volatility as alcohol often does. But it would be great if we made laws based on science and research.

There's an old saying:

Drunk drivers run red lights.
Pot smokers sit at stop signs waiting for them to turn green.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/dru ... ed-driving
https://academic.oup.com/jat/article/39/4/251/750800
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23220273


Thanks for the links. Based on a brief reading, findings are inconsistent and the only area of confidence (that there is serious impairment) is at the upper end of the scale - extreme marijuana intoxication.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:55 pm

N757ST wrote:
Never smoked in my life, and I can’t. (DOT testing) If they legalize it, no problem. My only pet peeve is driving down the van wick and constantly smelling pot by all the drivers smoking it. At that point what is the difference from what they are doing and DUI?


Legally, none. Driving impaired is driving impaired.

The difficulty is that, horrifyingly, in most states, there are no set guidelines. CA takes the approach that anything provable is punishable --as, frankly, it should be.


mbmbos wrote:
Marijuana certainly doesn't fuel aggression and general volatility as alcohol often does.


Which has zero percent to do with why it is not legal to drive drunk. No part of a Field Sobriety Test involves a driver's attitude. Reaction times and a complete destruction of useful situational awareness and coordination are the only legitimate reasons to police this issue.

Aggression and volatility exist in equal proportions among sober drivers, so, nothing there that is not already covered elsewhere.

When operating heavy machinery, THC impairs to the same degree, for the same reasons. Believing something different is prohibited without resorting to fantasy.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
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mbmbos
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:15 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
Marijuana certainly doesn't fuel aggression and general volatility as alcohol often does.


Which has zero percent to do with why it is not legal to drive drunk. No part of a Field Sobriety Test involves a driver's attitude. Reaction times and a complete destruction of useful situational awareness and coordination are the only legitimate reasons to police this issue.

Aggression and volatility exist in equal proportions among sober drivers, so, nothing there that is not already covered elsewhere.

When operating heavy machinery, THC impairs to the same degree, for the same reasons. Believing something different is prohibited without resorting to fantasy.



When I refer to volatility and aggression, I am talking about driving style, not attitude. That was a narrow and incorrect interpretation of what I said.


Do you have metrics to support your statement: "When operating heavy machinery, THC impairs to the same degree?"


Please be respectful and don't write off my statements as fantasy. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. I expect the same from you.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:39 pm

mbmbos wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:


Which has zero percent to do with why it is not legal to drive drunk. No part of a Field Sobriety Test involves a driver's attitude. Reaction times and a complete destruction of useful situational awareness and coordination are the only legitimate reasons to police this issue.

Aggression and volatility exist in equal proportions among sober drivers, so, nothing there that is not already covered elsewhere.

When operating heavy machinery, THC impairs to the same degree, for the same reasons. Believing something different is prohibited without resorting to fantasy.



When I refer to volatility and aggression, I am talking about driving style, not attitude. That was a narrow and incorrect interpretation of what I said.


Your statement did indicate otherwise. To wit:
mbmbos wrote:
Marijuana certainly doesn't fuel aggression and general volatility as alcohol often does.


Adding the term 'general' does make that different to "I am talking about driving style, not attitude".

If you believed something other than that, that is fine. But you did not make this sufficiently clear to a rational observer.



mbmbos wrote:
Do you have metrics to support your statement: "When operating heavy machinery, THC impairs to the same degree?"


Unless you believe, somehow, that operating machinery while high is acceptable, literally everything previously referenced up-thread already supplants the need for that. The second link for that was very specific on this. Demanding further specifics against the face of an established and obvious fact will not absolve the belief that it is 'harmless' to operate a vehicle while high on THC.

If your contention is that since it is really hard to measure, the safest, and only rational solution is to simply prohibit its use prior to vehicular operation, full stop. Exactly what is there to lose on that situation?

While no rational person has a problem with recreational usage, it is unwise to assume that a degradation of ability to operate is different or less severe than any other mind or motor-function altering substance. I do not see how that can be considered controversial.



mbmbos wrote:
Please be respectful and don't write off my statements as fantasy. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. I expect the same from you.


I was not disrespectful in any way. Measurable or other. If you do not prefer the term 'fantasy', which would like to use for a belief in something not supported by any data? I do have a degree of flexibility for that.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
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mbmbos
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:12 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
DarkSnowyNight wrote:


Which has zero percent to do with why it is not legal to drive drunk. No part of a Field Sobriety Test involves a driver's attitude. Reaction times and a complete destruction of useful situational awareness and coordination are the only legitimate reasons to police this issue.

Aggression and volatility exist in equal proportions among sober drivers, so, nothing there that is not already covered elsewhere.

When operating heavy machinery, THC impairs to the same degree, for the same reasons. Believing something different is prohibited without resorting to fantasy.



When I refer to volatility and aggression, I am talking about driving style, not attitude. That was a narrow and incorrect interpretation of what I said.


Your statement did indicate otherwise. To wit:
mbmbos wrote:
Marijuana certainly doesn't fuel aggression and general volatility as alcohol often does.


Adding the term 'general' does make that different to "I am talking about driving style, not attitude".

If you believed something other than that, that is fine. But you did not make this sufficiently clear to a rational observer.



mbmbos wrote:
Do you have metrics to support your statement: "When operating heavy machinery, THC impairs to the same degree?"


Unless you believe, somehow, that operating machinery while high is acceptable, literally everything previously referenced up-thread already supplants the need for that. The second link for that was very specific on this. Demanding further specifics against the face of an established and obvious fact will not absolve the belief that it is 'harmless' to operate a vehicle while high on THC.

If your contention is that since it is really hard to measure, the safest, and only rational solution is to simply prohibit its use prior to vehicular operation, full stop. Exactly what is there to lose on that situation?

While no rational person has a problem with recreational usage, it is unwise to assume that a degradation of ability to operate is different or less severe than any other mind or motor-function altering substance. I do not see how that can be considered controversial.



mbmbos wrote:
Please be respectful and don't write off my statements as fantasy. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. I expect the same from you.


I was not disrespectful in any way. Measurable or other. If you do not prefer the term 'fantasy', which would like to use for a belief in something not supported by any data? I do have a degree of flexibility for that.



You split hairs. You fail to provide citation. You use incendiary words like "fantasy."

In short, you do not argue in good faith.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
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seb146
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:41 pm

mbmbos wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Never smoked in my life, and I can’t. (DOT testing) If they legalize it, no problem. My only pet peeve is driving down the van wick and constantly smelling pot by all the drivers smoking it. At that point what is the difference from what they are doing and DUI?


Good question. Since the U.S. has labeled marijuana a class 1 drug and has refused to allow the CDC to study it, we have very little information about the degree to which marijuana use impairs judgement, motor control, response time, etc. We don't know how many crashes and other incidents are triggered by marijuana use. Frankly, we have very few stats.

Although it's probably unwise to drive under the influence of any mind altering substance, I find it hard to believe driving while high compares to driving while drunk in any appreciable way. Marijuana certainly doesn't fuel aggression and general volatility as alcohol often does. But it would be great if we made laws based on science and research.

There's an old saying:

Drunk drivers run red lights.
Pot smokers sit at stop signs waiting for them to turn green.


A couple of years ago, the brosband and I were driving along the Olympic Peninsula on 101. Stupid me, I was following a BMW and not paying attention to my speed going downhill. The brosband had smoked some before he got in the car earlier that segment. Anyway, down hill behind a BMW and a Washington State Trooper was going the other way. Naturally, we were the ones pulled over. He smelled the smoke and gave me a field sobriety test for marijuana. Perfectly reasonable and logical. While he was waiting to hear from dispatch that I had no record, a medical emergency happened at a house just yards away, so he told me to slow down and went to help.

Long story short, some agencies do field sobriety tests if they believe the driver is under the influence.
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:41 pm

mbmbos wrote:


You split hairs. You fail to provide citation. You use incendiary words like "fantasy."

In short, you do not argue in good faith.


I do not argue with any faith. If there is no basis for a claim, that is how it is. Perhaps you will be less offended if I play along?

And I did reference a citation. I simply assumed you would catch the relative favor of sparing you the indignity of spoon feeding something you have obviously already read. On that note. . . What citations have you provided to bolster your belief that driving under the influence of THC is harmless? The stop sign expression is cute, but completely bereft of relevant fact. So. . . what does your inventory have? Perhaps something to show that reaction times and motor skills are somehow unaffected by a chemical specifically evolved to do so?

I have also offered you an opportunity to choose another word, if fantasy is not your fancy. As previously indicated, I am not sentimental about this.

I must emphasize that this is not a personal matter on any level. Simply curious as to why you think driving in a degraded condition is ok. . .
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
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seb146
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 5:45 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I have a legal or business question:

This bill passed out of committee and most likely to be passed in the House, will vacate many low level marijuana convictions and set up banking regulations for the marijuana industry. In Oregon and Colorado, there are counties who have opted to not allow marijuana dispensaries in their counties. They reap the tax benefits but do not contribute to that particular tax base. What are your thoughts on this?


It won’t vacate convictions. Whether it’s legal now or not, when they committed the act it was illegal.


That doesn't stop anyone from writing an amnesty for prior convictions into the law, at least if certain conditions are met. According to the link up top language like that is included.

Best regards
Thomas


Prisons and jails are overcrowded. One reason is some people arrested, tried, and jailed for a dime bag. Some West Coast cities went from arresting and jailing people for marijuana to fining them instead. Some convictions were overturned or commuted. Prisons and jails are still crowded and the court systems are still crowded but not to the degree they were. That would be another up side to legalizing pot.
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:01 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

That doesn't stop anyone from writing an amnesty for prior convictions into the law, at least if certain conditions are met. According to the link up top language like that is included.

Best regards
Thomas



And this is an important thing. Knowing the Congress of the US, most of the hold up will not be involving of any philosophical debate. There will be some horse-trading involved, as there always is. And we do need to be careful about that. Is it, for example, worth it to legalize this federally if the cost is making it easier to gerrymander districts in favor of the reds? Even with pardons involved? Riders are often attached to bills that have no relation to the original matter.

While I would cautiously approve such a thing, whatever is being talked about, the entire proposal must be reviewed. As you can likely guess, we seldom perform that level of scrutiny here in the US. . .
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
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Aesma
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Re: House bill passed: Marijuana legal

Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:16 pm

In France there is a test just like the one for alcohol available to police, using saliva to find THC.

I don't know the details, I know THC can be detectable days after use so I would expect a blood test would be done if the saliva one is positive. As is done after a breathalyzer test for alcohol.

I hope we'll go forward with legalization here too, but it's not in the cards at the moment. Decriminalization neither, although there is virtually nobody in jail over marijuana in France, you need to be found with a kilo or a warehouse plantation to risk jail.
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