ltbewr
Topic Author
Posts: 14433
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:10 pm

The USA has seen a growing change in the laws and policy as to Marijuana from full legal growing to sales to decriminalization of possessing small amounts depending on the state and city.

Some states have fully legalize or under limited 'medical' licenses to private businesses to grow, process and sell pot in various forms including leaf, buds and edibles, collecting taxes on sales. This is despite a continuing Federal prohibition that limits transactions to cash, no access to banking accounts or able to borrow capital.

Other states are seeking to only 'decriminalize' the possession of small amounts, usually an ounce or less. Decriminalization has some popularity as not allowing full or limited legalization, but dealing with the too often racial and economic bias of criminal charges by police. Often Decriminalization, allowing those convicted of minor possession charges to get them expunged or given blanket expungement from their criminal records is part of Legalization.

Decriminalization has some popularity as avoids the potential issues of legalization on local communities. Some states like Colorado where legalization has taken place have seen mild increases for certain crimes, declines in sales of alcoholic beverages, still problems with minors accessing pot, and illegal growing and sales, often at cheaper prices, still thriving. Some states like California due to local governments not allowing shops to sell pot have seen disappointments in tax revenues and raising tax rates to cover vs. expectations, driving more non-legal sales.

So, how do you fell about legalization and/or decriminalization of marijuana ?
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:52 pm

You ask a good question, but I feel the answer is likely more complex than we can fully explore here.

Legalization has a lot of pitfalls, some foreseen, some not. First and most fore, it will allow a fair amount of publicly traded companies to do business at the interstate level. While this may be good for those parties, it is not for most. It will ultimately lead to consolidation, likely as well patent squatting, and a moderately paced but inexorable end to local small outfit growing*. And from there, a likely increase in cost, and by extension, the associated taxation.

As well, this will lead also to a somewhat stabilizing effect for the publicly traded outfits existing now. Now, most of these provide a volatile, but somewhat predictable saw-tooth stock performance, at relatively low buy-in. It is not hard to see that these make for decent day-trade picks. If one is careful and non-sentimental. The last thing anyone needs is for that to go away.

Then there are the social issues. Most states are fairly late to the game on this, but CSDUIs are finally being enforced in a lot of places. While I am somewhat ambivalent on this one personally, it is becoming clear, as statistics are compiled, that Cannabis is at least as hazardous a factor as alcohol for driving impairment, likely more so. I do not believe the public at large fully understands this (or the statutes already providing fairly comprehensive legal remedies for these types of crimes). To wit, there is a pervasive and ignorant belief that Marijuana is harmless, when the reality is that there are situations where that is simply not the case.

For other social related issues. . .

It is the new smoking. In this area, people assume (again falsely and out of ignorance) that legalization means they can just blaze a joint wherever they would like. It is more than a little frustrating to see people, who are likely often anti-tobacco as hell, assume it is perfectly ok to light their product in a theater, at the beach, in parks, etc. This is particularly irritating as there are many of us who have jobs to keep or just plain may not wish to indulge.
While a lot of pot smokers are courteous about these things, experience tells me that a lot of more recent customers (owing to legalization) should really spend a night or two getting sorted in the local jug.
If legalization can account for this, and more public nuisance laws are enforced, this may be something we can live with. YMMV.




On the plus side. . .

There is not a substantial plus side, apart from the availability of a product people clearly want. While there are medicinal uses, far too often the proponents are quacks or people just looking for a back-door way to get high. Most, if not all, of the medical benefits can be had without the THC element (as in enough to get competently high), anyway, so I feel this is a net-neutral.

I would be in favor of expunging records. The United States has an absolutely appalling incarceration rate. For non-violent, pot related offenses, this is inexcusable. What should, however, be part in parcel to this, is a new, more comprehensive definition of what 'expunged' means. As of now, that is 'not fucking much'.

Obviously, this should not, under any circumstances, apply to pot-related DUIs/MV Collisions, etc...




* This can be accomplished in a cost effective manner with extensive and protracted litigation/barratry. As well, it will not be difficult to lobby the local & national authorities into making existence expensive and miserable for all but the largest conglomerates.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:44 am

Places where marijuana legalization would be beneficial include North Dakota, Delaware, South Dakota, Nebraska, and Kansas where there are not a lot of resources and sources of income. This means that the resulting tax revenue would lead to a huge increase in tax revenue for those states.
 
mrgrtt123
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:09 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:11 am

An old article that I find really interesting regarding the legalization of marijuana.

https://marijuana.procon.org/
 
BN747
Posts: 7077
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:17 am

The horse is out of the barn...legalization is a forgone conclusion...


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
NIKV69
Posts: 12835
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:26 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Places where marijuana legalization would be beneficial include North Dakota, Delaware, South Dakota, Nebraska, and Kansas where there are not a lot of resources and sources of income. This means that the resulting tax revenue would lead to a huge increase in tax revenue for those states.


Legalizing drugs also frees up police to more important stuff like catch murderers and rapists. It also gets rid of the criminal element selling drugs now. Legalize it already.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
johns624
Posts: 2326
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:02 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Places where marijuana legalization would be beneficial include North Dakota, Delaware, South Dakota, Nebraska, and Kansas where there are not a lot of resources and sources of income. This means that the resulting tax revenue would lead to a huge increase in tax revenue for those states.

You need to research your states better. For just one example, with this being an aviation website. Kansas has Cessna and Spirit, along with many aviation suppliers.
 
ltbewr
Topic Author
Posts: 14433
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 3:17 pm

One problem holding up legalization/decriminalization is that we need to be able to determine the level of one may be sufficiently intoxicated/impaired by marijuana like with drunk driving or in certain workplaces. Elements of pot live in the bloodstream long after their affects have passed on and can damage the livelihoods of persons unnecessarily. We need to set a standard and methods from blood, breath, physical testing, for on the spot and preliminary testing to determine if someone is under impalement from marijuana that makes them unsafe to drive or do certain jobs. It shouldn't be a situation where if smoke a joint on Sunday and get into a car accident on Wednesday, you could be facing losing your license or job.
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:35 pm

ltbewr wrote:
One problem holding up legalization/decriminalization is that we need to be able to determine the level of one may be sufficiently intoxicated/impaired by marijuana like with drunk driving or in certain workplaces. Elements of pot live in the bloodstream long after their affects have passed on and can damage the livelihoods of persons unnecessarily. We need to set a standard and methods from blood, breath, physical testing, for on the spot and preliminary testing to determine if someone is under impalement from marijuana that makes them unsafe to drive or do certain jobs. It shouldn't be a situation where if smoke a joint on Sunday and get into a car accident on Wednesday, you could be facing losing your license or job.

What other jobs might be a concerns besides those that include pilots, train operators, machinery operations, and those involving driving.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:21 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
What other jobs might be a concerns besides those that include pilots, train operators, machinery operations, and those involving driving.



Literally anything that can be determined to be Safety Sensitive. And there are a great deal more of those than you have listed. Generally, this will mean that if the competency required for a given job is downgraded by chemical interaction and there are legal, physical, or monetary damages possible as a result, performing that job while high will be prohibited, often by law.

The litmus for this is that if you would not like for someone to show up drunk for a particular job, at least the same applies to being high.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
ArchGuy1
Posts: 666
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:25 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
What other jobs might be a concerns besides those that include pilots, train operators, machinery operations, and those involving driving.



Literally anything that can be determined to be Safety Sensitive. And there are a great deal more of those than you have listed. Generally, this will mean that if the competency required for a given job is downgraded by chemical interaction and there are legal, physical, or monetary damages possible as a result, performing that job while high will be prohibited, often by law.

The litmus for this is that if you would not like for someone to show up drunk for a particular job, at least the same applies to being high.

What examples of those jobs are safety sensitive besides manufacturing work and construction work.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:52 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
What examples of those jobs are safety sensitive besides manufacturing work and construction work.



I do not know that that was a serious question, FWIW. But anything Medical, for a start. Law Enforcement is another significant one. There are more than just a few that fill that category.

Here is a reference.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
Ken777
Posts: 9965
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:56 pm

There is also the other side of the coin - adverse impact. There was a gal who used BCD oil that had sufficient TCH (?) to show up on a routing workplace drug test and she w as fired for failing the test. That, I believe, came from the unfortunate lady talking about it on Fachas nothing otebook.

Reality is that employers may drug test for multiple reasons, including a long list of problematic experiences with drug users. They drug test to AVOID users and will terminate people who fail tests.

The law does not change employment law and employers will continue to drug teat and many will reject applicants and employees who test positive.
 
ItnStln
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:52 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Legalizing drugs also frees up police to more important stuff like catch murderers and rapists. It also gets rid of the criminal element selling drugs now. Legalize it already.

I'm told there's still a black market for weed in Colorado a d California. As for legalizing it, absolutely not until politicians realize that "shall not be infringed" means "shall not be infringed." There is no guarantee of drug usage in the Constitution or even mentioned in the Federalist Papers.
 
ItnStln
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:55 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
I would be in favor of expunging records. The United States has an absolutely appalling incarceration rate. For non-violent, pot related offenses, this is inexcusable. What should, however, be part in parcel to this, is a new, more comprehensive definition of what 'expunged' means. As of now, that is 'not fucking much.

Perhaps they should have thought about this before they engaged in a life of crime.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:12 pm

ItnStln wrote:
I'm told there's still a black market for weed in Colorado a d California. As for legalizing it, absolutely not until politicians realize that "shall not be infringed" means "shall not be infringed." There is no guarantee of drug usage in the Constitution or even mentioned in the Federalist Papers.



You do not know this, but there is plenty of flexibility WRT amending these matters. The Federalist Papers in no way represent a limit here. Apart from that, your focus seems fairly broad for this issue. . .

ItnStln wrote:
Perhaps they should have thought about this before they engaged in a life of crime.


If something has become legal, release and expungements are traditionally part of that deal. Since there is case history/legal precedence, you cannot mount a legally defensible objection to that. If your point was to fantasize, you are free to do so.

But these things do not work that way. Once something is legal, it is no longer a crime. Nor can past transgressions be treated as such. This includes dispositions.

It is also true that expungements still show up on background checks as arrests, rendering them to be effectively useless. The reason this needs to change is that there is no point to doing something that already must be done anyway if it is ineffective. You did not understand this before. Hopefully you do now.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
ItnStln
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:21 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
I'm told there's still a black market for weed in Colorado a d California. As for legalizing it, absolutely not until politicians realize that "shall not be infringed" means "shall not be infringed." There is no guarantee of drug usage in the Constitution or even mentioned in the Federalist Papers.



You do not know this, but there is plenty of flexibility WRT amending these matters. The Federalist Papers in no way represent a limit here. Apart from that, your focus seems fairly broad for this issue. . .

You assumed, incorrectly, that I do not know that. But so far they haven't.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
ItnStln wrote:
Perhaps they should have thought about this before they engaged in a life of crime.


If something has become legal, release and expungements are traditionally part of that deal. Since there is case history/legal precedence, you cannot mount a legally defensible objection to that. If your point was to fantasize, you are free to do so.

But these things do not work that way. Once something is legal, it is no longer a crime. Nor can past transgressions be treated as such. This includes dispositions.

It is also true that expungements still show up on background checks as arrests, rendering them to be effectively useless. The reason this needs to change is that there is no point to doing something that already must be done anyway if it is ineffective. You did not understand this before. Hopefully you do now.


I understood how it worked before so, again, your assumption was incorrect. Nothing you said touched on the fact that those criminals should have considered the consequences of the crimes they were committing prior to committing these crimes. To my knowledge only DOD, DHS and DOJ can see expunged crimes when conducting background checks for certain positions. If you have proof otherwise I'd like to see it but my information comes from people in those departments. That is assuming the agencies processed the expungements correctly.
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 7694
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:37 pm

In the interest of balancing states rights, I'd say legalize it at the federal level and let states decide how strict they wish to be. Once the patchwork began where some states decriminalized it while others still refuse to address it, it becomes a state's issue rather than a federal one, especially when the federal government has so far refused to flex its muscles. Even medical marijuana, which has had been widespread through the country, is still not allowed in the eyes of the federal government (otherwise, all states would have some form of it).

Just like alcohol has different laws across the states (some states are moist, some have counties that are dry, some have a monopoly over sales...), treat marijuana the same way.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:11 pm

ItnStln wrote:
You assumed, incorrectly, that I do not know that.


Then you should have phrased your point more specifically or at least more logically. You managed to be all over the place there. As well, your further points do not do a sufficient job of refuting anything I have said. To wit. . .



ItnStln wrote:

I understood how it worked before so, again, your assumption was incorrect. Nothing you said touched on the fact that those criminals should have considered the consequences of the crimes they were committing prior to committing these crimes.


No, this is will not do here. That is your personal philosophy, which you will recognize as being different to the applicable laws.
Ideals and incompletely formed notions of what 'should' be are not equal to rights in these matters.

Your conclusions, -or thoughts, rather- are why I do not believe you understand this. This is fine, but not a substitute for a proper analysis of what will likely be the case.


ItnStln wrote:
To my knowledge only DOD, DHS and DOJ can see expunged crimes when conducting background checks for certain positions. If you have proof otherwise I'd like to see it but my information comes from people in those departments. That is assuming the agencies processed the expungements correctly.


My employer, the regulatory authorities that oversee it, and most of our badge issuing locations can see all of that. To include expungements and in cases of Violent Crimes, juvenile records as well. If you have any understanding of these affairs, you will know that these specifics are covered by an enforceable NDA and will not, under any circumstances, be displayed on a public forum. I am not sure why you would bother to ask.

einsteinboricua wrote:
In the interest of balancing states rights, I'd say legalize it at the federal level and let states decide how strict they wish to be. Once the patchwork began where some states decriminalized it while others still refuse to address it, it becomes a state's issue rather than a federal one, especially when the federal government has so far refused to flex its muscles. Even medical marijuana, which has had been widespread through the country, is still not allowed in the eyes of the federal government (otherwise, all states would have some form of it).

Just like alcohol has different laws across the states (some states are moist, some have counties that are dry, some have a monopoly over sales...), treat marijuana the same way.


This can be done, as I do not believe there is a specific right to Marijuana, as a product, medical or otherwise. However, as it will open interstate trade to the matter, I think all the worst aspects of my original thought on the matter will likely occur, without any real guarantee that there will be an effective legalization in many places.

Are you saying though, that possession would no longer be illegal, and that it is distribution that the states are able to regulate? I feel that that is the closest to alcohol you would get on that one. . .
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2065
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:13 am

IF the only problem the US had was prescription drug abuse and alcohol abuse, that would be enough death and destruction right there. So, what the hell, legalize pot. We're already screwed without it. Let each one have free will to choose their "poison."
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21067
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:21 am

WHEN it is legalized, the price will skyrocket. Corporations will only want to profit off it. Look at all the tobacco products out there. Private individuals are not allowed to sell tobacco like they are with marijuana or alcohol. And those behind bars for simple possession will still be behind bars for simple possession.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
wardialer
Posts: 1206
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:08 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:04 am

Doesn’t matter if it’s decriminalize or legal, if people want it they will get it.

Anyway, if marijuana was legalized on a global scale, I still would think that alcohol would be the most consumed recreational drug out there. Second, would be nicotine (cigarettes).
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4945
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:35 pm

I am still to learn of an aspect of marijuana that is actually worse than alcohol.

I have never touched the stuff, but it is objectively no worse poison than booze. Less addictive, less physically damaging (for a similar consumption) and it is the cause of far, far fewer deaths (despite the lack of enforcement for drivers).

Its criminalization costs vast monetary and human resources to enforce, fills up the prisons with non-violent individuals (at the taxpayers' expense) and prevents the enforcement of more important and damaging crimes.

On the other hand, its legalization will bring massive revenue from taxes and takes the business away from drug dealers. It creates jobs and allows for proper regulation of the products sold to ensure better quality and safer consumption.

The only downside, in my eyes, is that the thing absolutely reeks... I didn't know how pungent it was until I started smelling it in the streets of cities where it's been legalized.

Objectively, there is no good reason to not decriminalize it, other than to not scare the older, conservative voters (aka boomers :duck: ).

As others have mentioned above, it would need to be banned while driving and there would need to be a way of easily enforcing that. Businesses should be allowed to test for its consumption and keep the right to refuse/terminate employment for users if they so wish (although that's debatable, but baby steps...).
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 2:00 pm

seb146 wrote:
WHEN it is legalized, the price will skyrocket. Corporations will only want to profit off it. Look at all the tobacco products out there. Private individuals are not allowed to sell tobacco like they are with marijuana or alcohol.


This is true, which is why I am not shy about telling people to be careful what they wish for. There will be other inconveniences that people are not thinking about now as well.

Seb146 wrote:
And those behind bars for simple possession will still be behind bars for simple possession.


How or why so? Once something is legal -action or objective possesion- it becomes illegal for the state to keep any person incarcerated or on probation for.

Francoflier wrote:
On the other hand, its legalization will bring massive revenue from taxes and takes the business away from drug dealers. It creates jobs and allows for proper regulation of the products sold to ensure better quality and safer consumption.


It is actually more likely to represent a net loss for jobs. As of now, there are a lot of small growers distributing relatively small amounts of product. This is really only because of the legality issues involved. Once that changes, and larger concerns can grow at a single site what used to require dozens, with a fraction of the workforce -and more efficiently paid at a lower rate to boot-, it will be hard for the current workers to stay in business.

The distribution will use methods and people that exist for that now. Unless I am not seeing something, it does not look like a gain for employment.


wardialer wrote:

Anyway, if marijuana was legalized on a global scale, I still would think that alcohol would be the most consumed recreational drug out there. Second, would be nicotine (cigarettes).


Hmmmm. . . I do not think we will know this until we are there. But there is nothing to suggest you are wrong. . .
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21067
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Fri Nov 29, 2019 4:21 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Seb146 wrote:
And those behind bars for simple possession will still be behind bars for simple possession.


How or why so? Once something is legal -action or objective possesion- it becomes illegal for the state to keep any person incarcerated or on probation for.


It will be argued by some states that they broke the law before marijuana was legal so the must be punished. I am also pretty sure those states would be the "conservative" states. You know the ones. Those "we don't care what people do in the privacy of their own home" states but force everyone to live a specific way.

I have noticed a trend in West Coast cities being police do not care what people are smoking as long as they smoke outside, away from doors and vents. As it should be.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1833
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:02 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Places where marijuana legalization would be beneficial include North Dakota, Delaware, South Dakota, Nebraska, and Kansas where there are not a lot of resources and sources of income. This means that the resulting tax revenue would lead to a huge increase in tax revenue for those states.


I guess you missed the oil boom.

ArchGuy1 wrote:
What other jobs might be a concerns besides those that include pilots, train operators, machinery operations, and those involving driving.


Maybe people trying to get to work with a stoner in the next car? No worse than a drunk driver you say? Exactly.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
Jalap
Posts: 498
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:17 pm

seb146 wrote:
WHEN it is legalized, the price will skyrocket. Corporations will only want to profit off it. Look at all the tobacco products out there. Private individuals are not allowed to sell tobacco like they are with marijuana or alcohol. And those behind bars for simple possession will still be behind bars for simple possession.

This is a product that's very cheap to produce in large quantities and it requires no processing. So it's possible to offer it at a very low price.
If corporations artificially let prices skyrocket, or if taxes and regulations force high prices, then the black market will remaim more attractive to customers. And so eliminating part of the advantage of legalising it.
 
Jalap
Posts: 498
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:34 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
It is actually more likely to represent a net loss for jobs. As of now, there are a lot of small growers distributing relatively small amounts of product. This is really only because of the legality issues involved. Once that changes, and larger concerns can grow at a single site what used to require dozens, with a fraction of the workforce -and more efficiently paid at a lower rate to boot-, it will be hard for the current workers to stay in business.

I don't know.
Is economy of scale a big advantage in something as simple as marihuana production?

Also, there are many different "flavours" in weed. Perhaps one can compare this with wine. Although for wine it's the taste that matters, with marihuana it's the effect.
What you descibe didn't really happen in wine production. Perhaps that's because production of wine is a true craft and very hard to industrialize. But what probably matters more: the market wants variety, not standardisation.

I understand your point, but I think marihuana is a product that's perfect for relatively small scale production.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21067
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:22 am

Jalap wrote:
seb146 wrote:
WHEN it is legalized, the price will skyrocket. Corporations will only want to profit off it. Look at all the tobacco products out there. Private individuals are not allowed to sell tobacco like they are with marijuana or alcohol. And those behind bars for simple possession will still be behind bars for simple possession.

This is a product that's very cheap to produce in large quantities and it requires no processing. So it's possible to offer it at a very low price.
If corporations artificially let prices skyrocket, or if taxes and regulations force high prices, then the black market will remaim more attractive to customers. And so eliminating part of the advantage of legalising it.


Here is the problem: tobacco had been grown with few to no chemicals and little processing back in the day. With all the additives and chemicals and processing, not to mention the taxes levied on tobacco, made it very expensive. Also, wasn't there legislation that private citizens can not grow tobacco? Corporate take over of marijuana is the biggest down side to legalizing pot that I see.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
bhill
Posts: 1669
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:09 pm

Wow! As a citizen of a State that has actually legalized pot, alot of you folks are.....confused. Nothing has changed here is Washington...the world has not ended...pot heads are still...pot heads. Tax revenue is rollin' in, and high quality, State inspected cannabis is MUCH cheaper than the unknown shit that used to be illegal. Sure, folks get arrested for DUI...be it for cannabis or booze, do something stupid, and you will be in trouble with the law. But as we are all grownups, we know how to live our lives. The only bitch is having to deal on a cash only basis..but the State is working on that angle as well. To sum up...

It's no big deal....and hopefully some good solid science/research will start happening for a plant that has been consumed by humans as long as corn has been around...
Carpe Pices
 
bhill
Posts: 1669
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:11 pm

P.S. There is more than one way to consume it..I do not smoke... ;-)
Carpe Pices
 
mham001
Posts: 5639
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:32 am

bhill wrote:
Wow! As a citizen of a State that has actually legalized pot, alot of you folks are.....confused. Nothing has changed here is Washington...the world has not ended...pot heads are still...pot heads. Tax revenue is rollin' in, and high quality, State inspected cannabis is MUCH cheaper than the unknown shit that used to be illegal.


Data indicates street weed in Washington is cheaper than the state-controlled pot by as much as 1/3. http://budzu.com/prices/usa/washington
And man, do they ever 'control' it, every bud must be accounted, documented and traceable. But what do you want from a government that owns every liquor store in the state. I don't know how you put up with some of Washington's overbearing jack-boot control over some issues.

Like Washington, California expected the advertised windfall and the state and local jurisdictions had/have dollar signs in their eyes. I know this because I have rented out a greenhouse for years and watched growers conform to the laws. The most recent news says the revenue isn't happening like they expected because prices are too high because they slapped on too many taxes and FEES and the underground is thriving. The most recent response from the California Legislature was to raise the taxes some more. Just stupid. https://www.mjtoday.org/2019/11/califor ... taxes.html
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9931
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:13 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
In the interest of balancing states rights, I'd say legalize it at the federal level and let states decide how strict they wish to be. Once the patchwork began where some states decriminalized it while others still refuse to address it, it becomes a state's issue rather than a federal one, especially when the federal government has so far refused to flex its muscles. Even medical marijuana, which has had been widespread through the country, is still not allowed in the eyes of the federal government (otherwise, all states would have some form of it).

Just like alcohol has different laws across the states (some states are moist, some have counties that are dry, some have a monopoly over sales...), treat marijuana the same way.


Very sensible and reasoned approach. That would also allow states to study what has worked/failed in various places. CO, for example, seems to have done a better job so far than CA and WA.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21067
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:31 am

mham001 wrote:
bhill wrote:
Wow! As a citizen of a State that has actually legalized pot, alot of you folks are.....confused. Nothing has changed here is Washington...the world has not ended...pot heads are still...pot heads. Tax revenue is rollin' in, and high quality, State inspected cannabis is MUCH cheaper than the unknown shit that used to be illegal.


Data indicates street weed in Washington is cheaper than the state-controlled pot by as much as 1/3. http://budzu.com/prices/usa/washington
And man, do they ever 'control' it, every bud must be accounted, documented and traceable. But what do you want from a government that owns every liquor store in the state. I don't know how you put up with some of Washington's overbearing jack-boot control over some issues.

Like Washington, California expected the advertised windfall and the state and local jurisdictions had/have dollar signs in their eyes. I know this because I have rented out a greenhouse for years and watched growers conform to the laws. The most recent news says the revenue isn't happening like they expected because prices are too high because they slapped on too many taxes and FEES and the underground is thriving. The most recent response from the California Legislature was to raise the taxes some more. Just stupid. https://www.mjtoday.org/2019/11/califor ... taxes.html


Washington ended state liquor stores a while ago. From what the brosband says, Washington weed is higher quality than Oregon. More on par with California. Sure, some people still love the thrill of buying off the street but what is the point? Especially when police are not going after small time dealers and growers can grow in peace? There are still huge illegal grow operations, probably. But much of the "street weed" comes from people who grow their own for "medical" reasons.

One other note on taxes, Washington state does not have a state income tax. Their revenue comes from gas taxes, "sin" taxes, property taxes, and sales tax.

Are you suggesting, mham, that state governments not tax alcohol or tobacco or gas? Just not have much of any income? How well does that work in Kansas and South Carolina and Alabama?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
ltbewr
Topic Author
Posts: 14433
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:44 am

A related benefit from legalization and decriminalization is new tax income from legal sales and lower justice and incarceration costs from fewer arrests. That makes it popular with a wide spectrum of voters including conservatives who love 'sin' taxes rather than income or sales taxes for revenues as well as reducing judiciary, police and jail costs. Problem is as we seen in California are 'liberal' politicians, desperate for more revenues for their favored programs, so overtax causing as some evidence shows, reduced for projected revenues of legal product as cheaper illegal sales increasing. Cigarettes also have been hit with much higher taxes in some states, to stupid levels encouraging purchases by criminal groups in cheap states like Virginia and Kentucky and 'buttlegging' to states with high taxes (like NY, NJ) and leading to lower net revenues.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 10297
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:23 am

Legalize Marijuana as Marijuana is less bad for your health than alcohol or tobacco.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bhill
Posts: 1669
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:06 pm

mham001 wrote:
bhill wrote:
Wow! As a citizen of a State that has actually legalized pot, alot of you folks are.....confused. Nothing has changed here is Washington...the world has not ended...pot heads are still...pot heads. Tax revenue is rollin' in, and high quality, State inspected cannabis is MUCH cheaper than the unknown shit that used to be illegal.


Data indicates street weed in Washington is cheaper than the state-controlled pot by as much as 1/3. http://budzu.com/prices/usa/washington
And man, do they ever 'control' it, every bud must be accounted, documented and traceable. But what do you want from a government that owns every liquor store in the state. I don't know how you put up with some of Washington's overbearing jack-boot control over some issues.

Like Washington, California expected the advertised windfall and the state and local jurisdictions had/have dollar signs in their eyes. I know this because I have rented out a greenhouse for years and watched growers conform to the laws. The most recent news says the revenue isn't happening like they expected because prices are too high because they slapped on too many taxes and FEES and the underground is thriving. The most recent response from the California Legislature was to raise the taxes some more. Just stupid. https://www.mjtoday.org/2019/11/califor ... taxes.html


"Street Weed?" yeah, and you have no idea whats in it....like formaldehyde during the Prohibition. With the State in the game, you know more than you want about the pot you are buying..strain, strength, where it came from, age...etc. for a fair price to boot...and ion just about any form you want...leaf, candy, tincture. The best part is knowing the dose you are getting for edibles...
Carpe Pices
 
bhill
Posts: 1669
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:10 pm

And folks...that is near half a billion of revenue that did not exist a few years ago...

https://www.tre.wa.gov/portfolio-item/w ... nd-health/
Carpe Pices
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21067
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:09 pm

ltbewr wrote:
A related benefit from legalization and decriminalization is new tax income from legal sales and lower justice and incarceration costs from fewer arrests. That makes it popular with a wide spectrum of voters including conservatives who love 'sin' taxes rather than income or sales taxes for revenues as well as reducing judiciary, police and jail costs. Problem is as we seen in California are 'liberal' politicians, desperate for more revenues for their favored programs, so overtax causing as some evidence shows, reduced for projected revenues of legal product as cheaper illegal sales increasing. Cigarettes also have been hit with much higher taxes in some states, to stupid levels encouraging purchases by criminal groups in cheap states like Virginia and Kentucky and 'buttlegging' to states with high taxes (like NY, NJ) and leading to lower net revenues.


Tobacco taxes are not the only reason there is less revenue from tobacco. People are quitting. Yes, people are quitting, in part, because of the higher taxes. But, people are also quitting because of many other reasons. I quit years ago because I just didn't feel like doing it anymore.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
TSS
Posts: 3400
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:41 pm

seb146 wrote:
One other note on taxes, Washington state does not have a state income tax. Their revenue comes from gas taxes, "sin" taxes, property taxes, and sales tax.

Are you suggesting, mham, that state governments not tax alcohol or tobacco or gas? Just not have much of any income? How well does that work in Kansas and South Carolina and Alabama?


I can't speak for Kansas or South Carolina, but Alabama most certainly does tax alcohol, tobacco, and gasoline:

Gasoline- 16.00¢ per gallon
Cigarettes- 43¢ per pack
Liquor- $18.22 per gal
Wine- $1.70 per gal
Beer- $1.05 per gal

Source- http://www.tax-rates.org/alabama/excise-tax
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21067
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:51 pm

TSS wrote:
seb146 wrote:
One other note on taxes, Washington state does not have a state income tax. Their revenue comes from gas taxes, "sin" taxes, property taxes, and sales tax.

Are you suggesting, mham, that state governments not tax alcohol or tobacco or gas? Just not have much of any income? How well does that work in Kansas and South Carolina and Alabama?


I can't speak for Kansas or South Carolina, but Alabama most certainly does tax alcohol, tobacco, and gasoline:

Gasoline- 16.00¢ per gallon
Cigarettes- 43¢ per pack
Liquor- $18.22 per gal
Wine- $1.70 per gal
Beer- $1.05 per gal

Source- http://www.tax-rates.org/alabama/excise-tax


Every state taxes alcohol, tobacco, and gas. Some states tax them less than others. More often than not, those states are the "don't tax nobody and we will be rolling in the dough" states like SC, KS, and AL.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Sokes
Posts: 459
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Marijuana - legalization or decriminalization ?

Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:25 pm

I once made a camel trip in the Rajasthan half desert. From time to time the guide would smoke Marijuana. I knew for the next hour there was no point talking to him. But probably the camel knew the way anyway. Prohibiting marijuana is wrong. It's a great recreational drug for camel drivers.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: airtechy, johns624, mdsh00 and 28 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos