MaverickM11
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The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Fri Nov 29, 2019 3:48 pm

"The American South spent much of the past century trying to overcome its position as the country’s poorest and least-developed region, with considerable success: By the 2009 recession it had nearly caught up economically with its northern and western neighbors.

That trend has now reversed. Since 2009, the South’s convergence has turned to divergence, as the region recorded the country’s slowest growth in output and wages, the lowest labor-force participation rate and the highest unemployment rate."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-souths ... 1560101610
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WarRI1
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:32 pm

I must say, the South was willing to acquire all and everyone's jobs they could, without conscience, and without thought and without a care except for theirs, turn around is fair play. No sympathy from me.
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N583JB
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:47 pm

Not a WSJ subscriber, so I couldn't read the whole article. Have places like Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Dallas, Austin stopped growing? I don't think so. The economy remains positively robust through much of the South. I don't think very many people are fretting.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:47 pm

Paywall, but I kinda remember reading this article. It sought to distinguish how the region overall lags behind other areas, but success varies by area. IIRC, it made mention of states like TX and FL being able to diversify enough to keep up with the time while states like AL, MS, and KY continue to lag (in general). It also sought to pinpoint the distinction between the urban and rural areas of the South, where cities become wealthier while rural areas fall behind.
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Aaron747
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:09 pm

N583JB wrote:
Not a WSJ subscriber, so I couldn't read the whole article. Have places like Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Dallas, Austin stopped growing? I don't think so. The economy remains positively robust through much of the South. I don't think very many people are fretting.


In that case, you are referring only to continued success of the urban South. The rural and deep red areas continue to lag way behind.
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SanDiegoLover
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:21 pm

N583JB wrote:
Not a WSJ subscriber, so I couldn't read the whole article. Have places like Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Dallas, Austin stopped growing? I don't think so. The economy remains positively robust through much of the South. I don't think very many people are fretting.


I’ve lived in NC on and off for a total of 15 years. Asheville, Charlotte, Raleigh-Durham, and to a lesser extent Wilmington, have all thrived or boomed for the past 30 years. But if you go 40 miles away to rural NC or anywhere else rural SE USA, you enter a time warp. Sure they have won some blue chip company manufacturing, albeit by giving away any chance at making tax revenues from them for 20 to 30 years, but those “wins” of a few thousand jobs each, are more than offset by the utter devastation of the US manufacturing base as a whole. Not to mention any small farms have been wiped out.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:37 pm

Tax breaks cannot change the fact banks and investors see little ROI in small scale rural manufacturing without a highly innovative business model or product.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:37 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
But if you go 40 miles away to rural NC or anywhere else rural SE USA, you enter a time warp.

I think it's true of any state. I once had to drive between Rochester and Syracuse in NY and it was also a time warp. Heck, for 3 years I lived in SoMD and even though there's no major industry down there, there's a definite difference as you drive away from the DC suburbs and enter the rural part of the state. The only thing keeping that part of the state alive is the naval air station where Navair is based (and hence many other defense contractors have a base as well). Otherwise, that part would be as irrelevant as Eastern Shore is.

The problem is that the South likes to toot its horn about how it's a fast growing area, how cost of living is low, and how tax policies are friendlier to businesses, but only urban areas are reaping the benefits while the rural areas fall behind. That's true of any state, but many states at least acknowledge that the urban-rural divide is growing and try to use resources to help bridge the gap whereas the South (with its limited government mentality) barely tries.

The result? State policies dominated by angry, rural, poor folks and resentful of the more successful, diverse, and richer urban neighbors.
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seb146
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:34 am

N583JB wrote:
Not a WSJ subscriber, so I couldn't read the whole article. Have places like Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Dallas, Austin stopped growing? I don't think so. The economy remains positively robust through much of the South. I don't think very many people are fretting.


Urban/suburban are doing better than rural. That is the point. Multi-national corporations want to build near resources like a workforce. So, cities are doing better. Not as well because state legislatures in the South refuse to help their citizens with things like affordable health care, affordable housing, affordable education, affordable transportation.
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N583JB
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:37 am

seb146 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Not a WSJ subscriber, so I couldn't read the whole article. Have places like Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Charleston, Dallas, Austin stopped growing? I don't think so. The economy remains positively robust through much of the South. I don't think very many people are fretting.


Urban/suburban are doing better than rural. That is the point. Multi-national corporations want to build near resources like a workforce. So, cities are doing better. Not as well because state legislatures in the South refuse to help their citizens with things like affordable health care, affordable housing, affordable education, affordable transportation.


As another poster said, urban/suburban does better pretty much nationwide. The South is no different. Also, housing is already much more affordable in southern municipalities than it is in places like New York or California. There's a reason why so many northerners are making the move to the south.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:53 am

Not much tech in the South, as far as I know.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:57 am

I wish I could read this article. OP why don't you paste it. or is the WSJ copyright infringement?

state by state showing unemployment. https://money.cnn.com/interactive/econo ... ment-rates

41. ALABAMA 7.0
41 ARIZONA 7.0[photoid][photoid]
43 TENNESSEE 7.1[/photoid][/photoid]
44 CALIFORNIA 7.4
44 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 7.4
44 KENTUCKY 7.4
47 MICHIGAN 7.7
47 NEVADA 7.7
47 RHODE ISLAND 7.7
50 GEORGIA 7.8/Td>
51 MISSISSIPPI 8


this is depressing the GDP is shocking low. state by state as well.

https://www.bea.gov/system/files/inline ... te1119.png


Had no idea the unemployment rate at 7 to 8 percent. The West has a problem as well, Arizona, California, Nevada.
 
Okie
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:17 am

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
Had no idea the unemployment rate at 7 to 8 percent. The West has a problem as well, Arizona, California, Nevada.


Well quite simple when you post the unemployment rate from 2014 during the Obama administration 5 years ago.

You are really grasping for straws.

Okie
 
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DL717
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:47 am

Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
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seb146
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:28 am

Let's also not forget that these "we hate the government" states in the South also take the most government welfare.....
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Aaron747
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:57 am

DL717 wrote:


Not a mention of RDU, ATL, DAL or AUS...how partisan.
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PPVRA
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:28 pm

“The South Is Down, But Don’t Count It Out”

“An interesting article by Sharon Nunn in the Wall Street Journal garnered a lot of attention recently, showing that the South is now lagging other regions of the U.S after enjoying a long postwar expansion. Although Nunn is right about the challenges facing the South, gloomy conclusions about the health of the region’s growth model are premature.“

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... unt-it-out
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:51 pm

PPVRA wrote:
"Although Nunn is right about the challenges facing the South, gloomy conclusions about the health of the region’s growth model are premature.“


In 1990, when the cold war was "won", any interest in education in the US was lowered to a point where religious nut-jobs could go eroding education again.
That pretty much explains it.

Best regards
Thomas
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:45 pm

seb146 wrote:
Let's also not forget that these "we hate the government" states in the South also take the most government welfare.....


Then, guessing you’re from a state supplying said “welfare”, why do you lot keep promoting more taxes to pay for it. Those states are enablers, if your tides is fact. Stop enabling.

The idea of welfare is a little scurvy, too. Let’s see, lots of defense industry, lots of military bases, lots of retired folks collecting social security, is that welfare?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:21 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Let's also not forget that these "we hate the government" states in the South also take the most government welfare.....


Then, guessing you’re from a state supplying said “welfare”, why do you lot keep promoting more taxes to pay for it. Those states are enablers, if your tides is fact. Stop enabling.

The idea of welfare is a little scurvy, too. Let’s see, lots of defense industry, lots of military bases, lots of retired folks collecting social security, is that welfare?


Well, according to Trumpist populism, yes it is. We don’t need anything beyond defense of our own nation since alliances are BS and the rest of the world can take care of itself. Or, is that actually as dumb and wrong as it sounds?
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seb146
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 4:52 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Let's also not forget that these "we hate the government" states in the South also take the most government welfare.....


Then, guessing you’re from a state supplying said “welfare”, why do you lot keep promoting more taxes to pay for it. Those states are enablers, if your tides is fact. Stop enabling.

The idea of welfare is a little scurvy, too. Let’s see, lots of defense industry, lots of military bases, lots of retired folks collecting social security, is that welfare?


So you want states like CA and MA and NY to just stop paying federal taxes so bridges can collapse and ports can go unchecked? What could possibly go wrong with that? You MAGA fans are so laser focused on "liberal" states providing these things to their own citizens. Maybe think outside the echo chamber.

I think it would be great if these welfare queen states would be forced to provide their own services. They need to be taught a thing or two about budgets and money management. But that will never happen. You MAGA fans hate wealth redistribution unless it takes from "liberal" states.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:26 pm

DL717 wrote:

He didn't say "no tech" in the South. He said "not much". Big difference.

And even then, only some states are benefiting. AL's Rocket City area, the ATL area in GA, Research Triangle in NC, and Space Coast in FL. Where does that leave LA, AR, MS, TN, SC, KY, and WV? TN has slowly begun to diversify and Nashville has been reaping the benefits, but still depends on manufacturing, and SC is in a similar boat (with the Charleston Boeing plant).

Compare that to the West where CA, NV, WA, UT, and AZ are hubs of technology, and the NE to an extent with NY and MA as hubs (the NE has the advantage of having the smallest geographical states so a metro area can span several states).

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Then, guessing you’re from a state supplying said “welfare”, why do you lot keep promoting more taxes to pay for it. Those states are enablers, if your tides is fact. Stop enabling.

Ah, so now the states that take more in taxes than they pay only do it because richer states are enablers...got it.

Washington state is undergoing a little of this at the moment. At the center of the debate is whether the state should collect taxes from all counties but invest heavily on the Puget Sound area projects. Residents from rural counties say that Olympia should not do that and argue that King County (the state's most populous county) is a leech. A recent study concluded that, if anything, King County makes up about 43% of state revenue, but only sees about 27% in return (in other words, for every dollar King County sends to the government it receives 63 cents). The funny thing is that if King County adopts this mentality ("rural counties shouldn't get the money we pay, so we'll pay for our own stuff"), infrastructure will collapse in rural counties. Collectively, the three counties that make up the main SeaTac metro area (Snohomish, King, and Pierce) constitute 62% of state revenue so...imagine if they kept the money within their jurisdiction.

The interesting thing is that if this were enacted at the federal level, we'd hear calls about how we're Americans first and foremost, which is easy to do whenever you're in a bind. It's a classic example of having your cake and eating it too.
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:44 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
DL717 wrote:


Not a mention of RDU, ATL, DAL or AUS...how partisan.

Or the 26th largest economy on the planet, Houston.
When wasn't America great?


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SueD
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:10 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
I must say, the South was willing to acquire all and everyone's jobs they could, without conscience, and without thought and without a care except for theirs, turn around is fair play. No sympathy from me.


Thats a pretty cruel and heartless statement and inditement of your views of FELLOW citizens .

Now to the OP questions surely the fortunes and economic trends particularly in the South East have been heavily influenced by the petro-dollar rather than more than more wider economical and long term structural changes taking place .

Some of the necessary structural changes are global for sure and many western liberal economies are struggling with these right now including the UK/EU and indeed the US and Japan with almost zero real growth for nearly a generation right now.

The global threats from the East Asia mainland and Gulf regions are imho real and disturbing.

Far from a Trump supporter however one thing is he has actually acknowledged this .

Unlike some of the politicians prevalent here in the UK and from all sides and shades of perspective.
Last edited by SueD on Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PPVRA
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:12 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
"Although Nunn is right about the challenges facing the South, gloomy conclusions about the health of the region’s growth model are premature.“


In 1990, when the cold war was "won", any interest in education in the US was lowered to a point where religious nut-jobs could go eroding education again.
That pretty much explains it.

Best regards
Thomas


The influence of religious nut jobs in the south and it's education system is VASTLY over-exaggerated, especially online. Headline grabbers simply don't reflect proportionality.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:25 pm

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Let's also not forget that these "we hate the government" states in the South also take the most government welfare.....


Then, guessing you’re from a state supplying said “welfare”, why do you lot keep promoting more taxes to pay for it. Those states are enablers, if your tides is fact. Stop enabling.

The idea of welfare is a little scurvy, too. Let’s see, lots of defense industry, lots of military bases, lots of retired folks collecting social security, is that welfare?


So you want states like CA and MA and NY to just stop paying federal taxes so bridges can collapse and ports can go unchecked? What could possibly go wrong with that? You MAGA fans are so laser focused on "liberal" states providing these things to their own citizens. Maybe think outside the echo chamber.

I think it would be great if these welfare queen states would be forced to provide their own services. They need to be taught a thing or two about budgets and money management. But that will never happen. You MAGA fans hate wealth redistribution unless it takes from "liberal" states.


So, infrastructure is “welfare”, got it. Is defense expenditure welfare?

No, I didn’t say stop paying Federal taxes. Just do it constitutionally by sending politicians who actually represent your state’s interests. By the way, if a tax paying “high tax state” retires and receives their Social Security or Federal pension to a low tax state (say, NY resident moving to Florida) is that welfare?
 
PPVRA
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:28 pm

As far as tech, most of the people in Silicon Valley are transplants from somewhere else. A lot of them from the south, mid-west and other states (and other countries). It isn't some incredible K-12 education system California has built that powers and sustains silicon valley. Far from it, they benefit from the education system of everywhere else, too, including the South, and tremendously.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:14 pm

Okie wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
Had no idea the unemployment rate at 7 to 8 percent. The West has a problem as well, Arizona, California, Nevada.


Well quite simple when you post the unemployment rate from 2014 during the Obama administration 5 years ago.

You are really grasping for straws.

Okie


My bad, I asked the latest results, sorry the old data came up, i didn't see the date.

Kentucky

4.3 43
Louisiana

4.5 44
Washington

4.5 44
Arizona

4.8 46
New Mexico

4.8 46
West Virginia

4.8 46
District of Columbia

5.4 49
Mississippi

5.5 50
Alaska

6.2 51

https://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

regardless the GDP chart is accurate and that should have people worried.

the problem is income inequality. that's a fact.
 
PPVRA
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:36 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
the problem is income inequality. that's a fact.


California and New York are amongst the top 5 worst states in terms of income inequality.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Dieuwer
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:14 pm

PPVRA wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
the problem is income inequality. that's a fact.


California and New York are amongst the top 5 worst states in terms of income inequality.


Billionaires love great weather or be close to Wall Street ;)
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:15 pm

Texas, with its multiple mega-cities, oil and chemical industries, and major universities stands alone both as a Southern State (somewhat) and as a Republican State. It also sends more to the federal government than it receives. But it also shares some of the bad demographics with poorer Southern States.
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:07 am

PPVRA wrote:
As far as tech, most of the people in Silicon Valley are transplants from somewhere else. A lot of them from the south, mid-west and other states (and other countries). It isn't some incredible K-12 education system California has built that powers and sustains silicon valley. Far from it, they benefit from the education system of everywhere else, too, including the South, and tremendously.


There are a lot of transplants but it isn’t ‘most of’ the people, for crying out loud. Those transplants are the cream of the crop from wherever they’re from but you are putting all CA education under one hat - that’s completely inaccurate as everything depends on property tax revenues in CA. Many public schools in San Mateo and Santa Clara counties have linkages with local firms and have advanced placement programs far better than some local private schools offer. In my graduating class of about 450, more than 30 kids went off to top east coast universities and another 70-80 went to Stanford and top UCs.
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casinterest
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:33 am

Old articles.

The south is fine.

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/451 ... ng-started
Some of the most important workforce development takes place at vocational school and higher education institutions. The University of Virginia, University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, Georgia Tech, University of Florida and The College of William & Mary are all top 10 public universities and all are located in the South. To say the South is underinvested in education while five of the top 10 public universities are Southern ignores reality.


he South is a vibrant, economically diverse region that, in many cases, is creating the renaissance of American manufacturing. Boeing, Toyota, BMW, Honda, Mercedes and General Electric have all opened factories in the South in recent years.



The south has benefits of a lower cost of living, and wide open land. What hurts most is what has been posted elsewhere, rural areas have lost local manufacturing and local plants for regional or international centers of manufacturing. What has survived is high tech and location specific manufacturing.

Raleigh has high tech, Charlotte has banking, Atlanta is home to multiple fortune 500 companies. Florida has aerospace, and high tourism. Texas and Louisianna have oil, manufacturing and refineries.

Do not count out the south. Just count out the rural areas that are depressed because it is cheaper to build in other countries, and their young and talented youth make the decision to move to urban centers for jobs.
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seb146
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:31 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Then, guessing you’re from a state supplying said “welfare”, why do you lot keep promoting more taxes to pay for it. Those states are enablers, if your tides is fact. Stop enabling.

The idea of welfare is a little scurvy, too. Let’s see, lots of defense industry, lots of military bases, lots of retired folks collecting social security, is that welfare?


So you want states like CA and MA and NY to just stop paying federal taxes so bridges can collapse and ports can go unchecked? What could possibly go wrong with that? You MAGA fans are so laser focused on "liberal" states providing these things to their own citizens. Maybe think outside the echo chamber.

I think it would be great if these welfare queen states would be forced to provide their own services. They need to be taught a thing or two about budgets and money management. But that will never happen. You MAGA fans hate wealth redistribution unless it takes from "liberal" states.


So, infrastructure is “welfare”, got it. Is defense expenditure welfare?

No, I didn’t say stop paying Federal taxes. Just do it constitutionally by sending politicians who actually represent your state’s interests. By the way, if a tax paying “high tax state” retires and receives their Social Security or Federal pension to a low tax state (say, NY resident moving to Florida) is that welfare?


You MAGA fans want to take away Social Security and pensions.

Would you believe that CA and NY and MA send politicians who represent their state's interests? You want them to and they do and then you complain they send politicians to represent their states' interests.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
KFTG
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:42 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
"That trend has now reversed. Since 2009, the South’s convergence has turned to divergence, as the region recorded the country’s slowest growth in output and wages, the lowest labor-force participation rate and the highest unemployment rate."

Have they tried thoughts and prayers yet?
 
MaverickM11
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:27 am

casinterest wrote:

That “article” is barely a month newer and is an ALEC opinion piece.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N757ST
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:11 pm

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
seb146 wrote:

So you want states like CA and MA and NY to just stop paying federal taxes so bridges can collapse and ports can go unchecked? What could possibly go wrong with that? You MAGA fans are so laser focused on "liberal" states providing these things to their own citizens. Maybe think outside the echo chamber.

I think it would be great if these welfare queen states would be forced to provide their own services. They need to be taught a thing or two about budgets and money management. But that will never happen. You MAGA fans hate wealth redistribution unless it takes from "liberal" states.


So, infrastructure is “welfare”, got it. Is defense expenditure welfare?

No, I didn’t say stop paying Federal taxes. Just do it constitutionally by sending politicians who actually represent your state’s interests. By the way, if a tax paying “high tax state” retires and receives their Social Security or Federal pension to a low tax state (say, NY resident moving to Florida) is that welfare?


You MAGA fans want to take away Social Security and pensions.

Would you believe that CA and NY and MA send politicians who represent their state's interests? You want them to and they do and then you complain they send politicians to represent their states' interests.


Im fine with social security plans, Public pension plans, absolutely they should be gone! And in even most liberal states they are going. I’m not talking about taking them away for those on the job for so many years or retirees, but 401k plans with match are far better for the public and sometimes for the retired person. They can take the plans with them, if the state is in crisis they can’t rob from them. Pension systems where you take the best 3 years, 3 years where the employee works hundreds of hours of overtime inflate their salary are ludicrous. You want to talk a reasonable pension system, fine. But “75% of your best INFLATED years” is not fair to the tax payer and is crushing municipalities.
 
N583JB
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:03 pm

casinterest wrote:
Old articles.

The south is fine.

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/451 ... ng-started
Some of the most important workforce development takes place at vocational school and higher education institutions. The University of Virginia, University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill, Georgia Tech, University of Florida and The College of William & Mary are all top 10 public universities and all are located in the South. To say the South is underinvested in education while five of the top 10 public universities are Southern ignores reality.


he South is a vibrant, economically diverse region that, in many cases, is creating the renaissance of American manufacturing. Boeing, Toyota, BMW, Honda, Mercedes and General Electric have all opened factories in the South in recent years.



The south has benefits of a lower cost of living, and wide open land. What hurts most is what has been posted elsewhere, rural areas have lost local manufacturing and local plants for regional or international centers of manufacturing. What has survived is high tech and location specific manufacturing.

Raleigh has high tech, Charlotte has banking, Atlanta is home to multiple fortune 500 companies. Florida has aerospace, and high tourism. Texas and Louisianna have oil, manufacturing and refineries.

Do not count out the south. Just count out the rural areas that are depressed because it is cheaper to build in other countries, and their young and talented youth make the decision to move to urban centers for jobs.


Indeed. If the south was actually in trouble, people would be leaving in droves and moving north. We all know that is not happening...quite the opposite, actually.
 
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seb146
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:01 pm

N757ST wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

So, infrastructure is “welfare”, got it. Is defense expenditure welfare?

No, I didn’t say stop paying Federal taxes. Just do it constitutionally by sending politicians who actually represent your state’s interests. By the way, if a tax paying “high tax state” retires and receives their Social Security or Federal pension to a low tax state (say, NY resident moving to Florida) is that welfare?


You MAGA fans want to take away Social Security and pensions.

Would you believe that CA and NY and MA send politicians who represent their state's interests? You want them to and they do and then you complain they send politicians to represent their states' interests.


Im fine with social security plans, Public pension plans, absolutely they should be gone! And in even most liberal states they are going. I’m not talking about taking them away for those on the job for so many years or retirees, but 401k plans with match are far better for the public and sometimes for the retired person. They can take the plans with them, if the state is in crisis they can’t rob from them. Pension systems where you take the best 3 years, 3 years where the employee works hundreds of hours of overtime inflate their salary are ludicrous. You want to talk a reasonable pension system, fine. But “75% of your best INFLATED years” is not fair to the tax payer and is crushing municipalities.


You are talking about public employees. Galaxy and I are talking about everyone else.
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casinterest
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:20 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

That “article” is barely a month newer and is an ALEC opinion piece.


I was pointing out that you are rehashing arguments from the summer, and the articles ignore the very real urban/rural divide that is occurring throughout the US.

The charts of various years, show the south is doing very well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U ... rowth_rate
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
anrec80
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:06 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
The result? State policies dominated by angry, rural, poor folks and resentful of the more successful, diverse, and richer urban neighbors.


Well, we certainly can’t say this about New York State with all recent liberal “reforms”.
 
PPVRA
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:47 am

anrec80 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
The result? State policies dominated by angry, rural, poor folks and resentful of the more successful, diverse, and richer urban neighbors.


Well, we certainly can’t say this about New York State with all recent liberal “reforms”.


Rural folks in the south stay away from cities like Atlanta like it’s the plague. They’re most certainly not resentful of anything.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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casinterest
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:02 am

PPVRA wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
The result? State policies dominated by angry, rural, poor folks and resentful of the more successful, diverse, and richer urban neighbors.


Well, we certainly can’t say this about New York State with all recent liberal “reforms”.


Rural folks in the south stay away from cities like Atlanta like it’s the plague. They’re most certainly not resentful of anything.


It's not that they are resentful. It is that they don't get it. Big cities survive because employers have a large pool to pull from in terms of employees. They are not tied to a small population that can be finicky. They have more people, and a better chance of finding the perfect fit for their business. Small towns fail because at the end of the day, no small population can possess the necessary skills for rapidly changing macro economic forces. For a short time , it may make sense for some business sectors to build in small towns because the skills or location works for that point in time. Once the market changes, the small towns are left at a disadvantage unless they can attract talent or change the education of their work force to meet the demands of employers.
Big cities, for all their expensive amenities, possess what is needed. A large workforce with diversified specialties that can meet changing demands.

This is why rural areas suffer. People that moved their during boom times, inevitably watch as their children move elsewhere, or they push for rapid growth,
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Pi7472000
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:02 am

Another issue in the South related to the economy falling behind is its public transportation. I was in Texas and its cities were awful as a visitor. Austin, Dallas, and Houston felt like sprawling suburbs. Austin had a somewhat nicer downtown, but awful public transportation. Even LA is better. Houston and Dallas had very little character and felt like massive suburbs. I would go back to either city. It does seem the South is lacking in many things and liberal states and cities look better and better than the South for economic opportunity. I would much rather love or visit cities like Seattle, Denver, San Francisco, Sacramento, Los Angeles, Burlington, V.T., Portland, or Washington D.C. If I had to live in the South I might choose Nashville, although it felt very conservative and outdated as well. Hopefully the South will evolve and take advantage of policies that put people and civil liberties first.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:35 am

WarRI1 wrote:
I must say, the South was willing to acquire all and everyone's jobs they could, without conscience, and without thought and without a care except for theirs, turn around is fair play. No sympathy from me.


Thats a pretty cruel and heartless statement and inditement of your views of FELLOW citizens .


When you have been around ANet awhile, you will see there is no quarter on here. When you have lived in the South while being from the North in the 1950s, you will understand my attitude. When you have been around as long as I have, you do acquire a fair sense of straight shooters and fools. When you have dealt with the Southern Mentality as far as grabbing other peoples jobs and coming North to take my fellow Union members work during strikes, including mine, then you may understand me. Every time, the strike breakers came from down South. They did not seem to give a damn about their fellow citizens then, so why should I when they lose theirs? Scabs we called them.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
anrec80
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:55 am

WarRI1 wrote:
I must say, the South was willing to acquire all and everyone's jobs they could, without conscience, and without thought and without a care except for theirs, turn around is fair play. No sympathy from me.


Those states who believe this - why aren't they trying to become more efficient, most conservative when it comes to finances, reduce the size of their government, enact reforms to simplify business? For example, New York is 2nd worst state to do business in. California isn't a leader either. All that while Southern states do a lot of work in those departments. And not only southern states - competition for businesses and jobs is global, and if for some business there is no state good for them - they can choose some other country and pay all their taxes there.
 
anrec80
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:01 am

seb146 wrote:

You MAGA fans want to take away Social Security and pensions.

Would you believe that CA and NY and MA send politicians who represent their state's interests? You want them to and they do and then you complain they send politicians to represent their states' interests.


Social Security must stay - it's funded by people who are paying into it, and for most it's primary source of income in retirement. But I agree with the previous poster - public and union pensions must be replaced with 401(k) or similar ones. It's a huge drag on state and municipal finances.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:11 am

anrec80 wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
I must say, the South was willing to acquire all and everyone's jobs they could, without conscience, and without thought and without a care except for theirs, turn around is fair play. No sympathy from me.


Those states who believe this - why aren't they trying to become more efficient, most conservative when it comes to finances, reduce the size of their government, enact reforms to simplify business? For example, New York is 2nd worst state to do business in. California isn't a leader either. All that while Southern states do a lot of work in those departments. And not only southern states - competition for businesses and jobs is global, and if for some business there is no state good for them - they can choose some other country and pay all their taxes there.



Reading your reply is enough to not bother explaining my position further. I will say only that the old corporate line is alive and well.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
anrec80
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:52 am

WarRI1 wrote:

Reading your reply is enough to not bother explaining my position further. I will say only that the old corporate line is alive and well.


There is no "corporate line" here, it's just reality - understood by at least some of the liberal states as well. Call it competition of jurisdictions.

At least in New York - they acknowledge that they are on an extremely shaky financial foundation. All it takes is a few hundred millionaires to move out, and both State and City finances just collapse like house of cards. But after decades of such policies and a few million people on all sorts of programs - there is not much they can do.
 
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seb146
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Re: The South’s Economy Is Falling Behind

Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:13 am

anrec80 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

You MAGA fans want to take away Social Security and pensions.

Would you believe that CA and NY and MA send politicians who represent their state's interests? You want them to and they do and then you complain they send politicians to represent their states' interests.


Social Security must stay - it's funded by people who are paying into it, and for most it's primary source of income in retirement. But I agree with the previous poster - public and union pensions must be replaced with 401(k) or similar ones. It's a huge drag on state and municipal finances.


Two things:

1. Republicans want to completely do away with Social Security period because it is and "entitlement".
2. 401(k) are tied to the Stock Market. WHEN Republicans crash the economy, how is that a benefit?
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