ArchGuy1
Topic Author
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

London Bridge Attack

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:02 pm

A stabbing attack at London Bridge in Friday has led to the death of two civilians and police have also shot the suspect dead. The Met Police in London are classifying the incident as a terrorist attack. Before the suspect was shot by police, he appeared to be pinned down by members of the public. The threat level for terrorism in Britain was lowered from severe to substantial earlier this month due to a decline in terrorist, and the challenge for attacks like this is that they are often carried out by lone actors and require little preparation or communication. But due to previous attacks in both the UK and other countries, police are prepared for an incident like this and are fast to intervene. Now, the challenge for police and the MI5 is to establish the individual's identity and determine he has any links to associations and if there are any more threats. London Bridge Station and the Tube in the area have both been reopened, but continue to face disruptions. This is the latest in a series of attacks that have taken place in Britain over the past couple years, including an attack at London Bridge in June 2017 that left 8 people dead. It is a terrible situation for everyone involved in the incident and I feel that this a reality that Britain and other countries are going to have to face. What are your thoughts on this situation
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50604781
 
Arion640
Posts: 2503
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:15 pm

Sad. RIP to the two killed.

We won’t be beaten by these idiots.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 712
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:50 pm

Shot dead in the street like a rabid dog.

Good.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
User avatar
N14AZ
Posts: 3877
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:12 pm

Yes, was nice to see how they shot the terrorist. I am fed up...

And yes, I mean it the way I wrote it.
 
olle
Posts: 1242
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:38 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Fri Nov 29, 2019 9:15 pm

Another in holland.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2503
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:43 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Yes, was nice to see how they shot the terrorist. I am fed up...

And yes, I mean it the way I wrote it.


The best place for this person is Dead. No costly legal, time wasting trial.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14426
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:58 pm

It is historically unusual for the police in the UK to shoot to kill, and it is while it was in opinion of many a justifiable action as identified as a 'terrorist act', serious questions exist as to if the use of deadly force was proper if the alleged attacker was already secure by others on the scene. I suspect that as the alleged attacker may have had a knife with blood on it still on him, that it was necessary to prevent others from death or injury. Still it raises questions as to use of deadly force, cops are not to be judge, jury and executioner, even if someone is a terrorist or may have been someone mentally ill.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 9924
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:05 pm

The dead attacker was apparently imprisoned on terror related charges and was just recently released. The malcontent was likely unrehabilitated and unable to handle life back in society - the hoax suicide vest suggests he knew cops would take him out. A real loser through and through - question is, why would he be released to general society? The UK has some work to do.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Jetty
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:06 pm

ltbewr wrote:
It is historically unusual for the police in the UK to shoot to kill, and it is while it was in opinion of many a justifiable action as identified as a 'terrorist act', serious questions exist as to if the use of deadly force was proper if the alleged attacker was already secure by others on the scene. I suspect that as the alleged attacker may have had a knife with blood on it still on him, that it was necessary to prevent others from death or injury. Still it raises questions as to use of deadly force, cops are not to be judge, jury and executioner, even if someone is a terrorist or may have been someone mentally ill.

I suspect it had everything to do with the terrorist pretending to have explosives on him. The only way to counter the risk of detonation is shooting at the head.
 
Jetty
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:05 am

The terrorist has been identified as Usman Khan, he was previously convicted of terrorism offenses and released after serving only half his sentence. Amazing that the British government decides to release a guy as this that early, putting the public at risk! He should have been in jail.

Image
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... eveal.html
 
N583JB
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:12 am

ltbewr wrote:
It is historically unusual for the police in the UK to shoot to kill, and it is while it was in opinion of many a justifiable action as identified as a 'terrorist act', serious questions exist as to if the use of deadly force was proper if the alleged attacker was already secure by others on the scene. I suspect that as the alleged attacker may have had a knife with blood on it still on him, that it was necessary to prevent others from death or injury. Still it raises questions as to use of deadly force, cops are not to be judge, jury and executioner, even if someone is a terrorist or may have been someone mentally ill.


Yes, as another poster said, the man had a fake suicide vest on him. Makes sense to shoot in that case. Even without the vest, if the man still was in possession of the knife, lethal force would certainly be warranted depending on his behavior.
 
ArchGuy1
Topic Author
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:35 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:18 am

Jetty wrote:
The terrorist has been identified as Usman Khan, he was previously convicted of terrorism offenses and released after serving only half his sentence. Amazing that the British government decides to release a guy as this that early, putting the public at risk! He should have been in jail.

Image
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... eveal.html

It was indeed a poor decision to let him out of prison and the mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing is serving life in the ADX Superman Prison without the possibility of parole for such a disregard on human life and property damage.
 
Dieuwer
Posts: 1669
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:49 am

Stop being religious. Become a humanist instead.
Perhaps a small dose of Confucianism would help too: "Don't do unto others what you don't want done unto you."
 
Jetty
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 2:56 am

seb146 wrote:
It is terrible to use religion as an excuse.

As an atheist I must say this view is extremely biased in favor of religion. When religion is an inspiration to do good it's often portrayed as the true spirit of religion, but when it's an inspiration to do bad it suddenly is just 'an excuse' of people who are bad anyway and any relation with religion is downplayed. Why don't you accept that for this man religion might not have been just 'an excuse' but the root cause of his behavior? As a rational reader religious texts provide for ample instigation to do both good and bad things. You can't leave either of that out when observing the effect of religion on humans as you seem to find appropriate.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21039
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:26 am

Jetty wrote:
seb146 wrote:
It is terrible to use religion as an excuse.

As an atheist I must say this view is extremely biased in favor of religion. When religion is an inspiration to do good it's often portrayed as the true spirit of religion, but when it's an inspiration to do bad it suddenly is just 'an excuse' of people who are bad anyway and any relation with religion is downplayed. Why don't you accept that for this man religion might not have been just 'an excuse' but the root cause of his behavior? As a rational reader religious texts provide for ample instigation to do both good and bad things. You can't leave either of that out when observing the effect of religion on humans as you seem to find appropriate.


There are murderers who are atheists. Therefore, by these "Christian" standards, ALL atheists are murderers. There are Buddhists who are murderers, therefore, by these "Christian" standards, ALL Buddhists are murderers. It does not work that way. These "Christians" want us to separate murderers from religion when Christianity is involved but they refuse to do the same for everyone else. People murder for many reasons. Religion is one. However, not all Muslims are murderers. To point to this one attack and say "ALL MUSLIMS ARE MURDERERS!!" is ignorant. This man twisted his religion. Just like "Christian" parents twist the words of their religion and force their children onto the streets or allow families to be separated or even die. Does that mean all Christians are that way?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Jetty
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:08 am

seb146 wrote:
There are murderers who are atheists. Therefore, by these "Christian" standards, ALL atheists are murderers. There are Buddhists who are murderers, therefore, by these "Christian" standards, ALL Buddhists are murderers. It does not work that way.

I never said it did.

People murder for many reasons. Religion is one. However, not all Muslims are murderers. To point to this one attack and say "ALL MUSLIMS ARE MURDERERS!!" is ignorant.

:checkmark: Agree with all of that. But that doesn't conflict with my opinion that whoever is inspired by religion uses it, and you can't say simply say it's just 'an excuse' when it's used in a way that is impossible to justify for a moral person. I see religious people often 'reverse engineering' religion to make it align with current norms of decency and to suggest immoral usage of religion has nothing to do with religion in reality. This doesn't make sense for a rational observer: the evil aspects of religion are just as real and genuine as the others. That was my only problem with your previous post.
 
User avatar
F737NG
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:12 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:17 am

seb146 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
seb146 wrote:
It is terrible to use religion as an excuse.

As an atheist I must say this view is extremely biased in favor of religion. When religion is an inspiration to do good it's often portrayed as the true spirit of religion, but when it's an inspiration to do bad it suddenly is just 'an excuse' of people who are bad anyway and any relation with religion is downplayed. Why don't you accept that for this man religion might not have been just 'an excuse' but the root cause of his behavior? As a rational reader religious texts provide for ample instigation to do both good and bad things. You can't leave either of that out when observing the effect of religion on humans as you seem to find appropriate.


There are murderers who are atheists. Therefore, by these "Christian" standards, ALL atheists are murderers. There are Buddhists who are murderers, therefore, by these "Christian" standards, ALL Buddhists are murderers. It does not work that way. These "Christians" want us to separate murderers from religion when Christianity is involved but they refuse to do the same for everyone else. People murder for many reasons. Religion is one. However, not all Muslims are murderers. To point to this one attack and say "ALL MUSLIMS ARE MURDERERS!!" is ignorant. This man twisted his religion. Just like "Christian" parents twist the words of their religion and force their children onto the streets or allow families to be separated or even die. Does that mean all Christians are that way?



Islamist ≠ Muslim

It's difficult not to bash religion when so many who commit atrocities use religious texts or teachings to justify their actions.
However, it's easy to forget that these interpretations are deliberately skewed in ways that no sane believers would ever countenance.
It saddens me that two people lost their lives and others were injured due to this latest sick b*st*rd misinterpreting religion for violent ends.


N583JB wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
It is historically unusual for the police in the UK to shoot to kill, and it is while it was in opinion of many a justifiable action as identified as a 'terrorist act', serious questions exist as to if the use of deadly force was proper if the alleged attacker was already secure by others on the scene. I suspect that as the alleged attacker may have had a knife with blood on it still on him, that it was necessary to prevent others from death or injury. Still it raises questions as to use of deadly force, cops are not to be judge, jury and executioner, even if someone is a terrorist or may have been someone mentally ill.


Yes, as another poster said, the man had a fake suicide vest on him. Makes sense to shoot in that case. Even without the vest, if the man still was in possession of the knife, lethal force would certainly be warranted depending on his behavior.



Given how the police operate here in the UK, possession of a knife almost never ends up in a shoot-to-kill action. Non-lethal measures are exhaustively used in the attempt to disarm. When 'explosives' are seen, however, AFOs are permitted to shoot to the target's head to prevent detonation.

It is a huge issue that he was considered safe enough to be released on licence, given the severity of the offences he was convicted for. That clearly is a failing that needs to be investigated.

I'm grateful for the efforts of those members of the general public who risked their own safety to prevent a much greater loss of life. I'm also very glad that this individual and his warped thinking no longer poses any threat on my doorstep.
 
Airstud
Posts: 4730
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:57 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:04 am

seb146 wrote:
There are Buddhists who are murderers


That one I have some trouble believing...
Pancakes are delicious.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17817
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:35 am

Arion640 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Yes, was nice to see how they shot the terrorist. I am fed up...

And yes, I mean it the way I wrote it.


The best place for this person is Dead. No costly legal, time wasting trial.


Until his family sue the police for unlawful killing. :sarcastic:

I'm not saying I think it was, but such a lawsuit is a distinct possibility.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2503
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:42 am

scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Yes, was nice to see how they shot the terrorist. I am fed up...

And yes, I mean it the way I wrote it.


The best place for this person is Dead. No costly legal, time wasting trial.


Until his family sue the police for unlawful killing. :sarcastic:

I'm not saying I think it was, but such a lawsuit is a distinct possibility.



Surely they don’t have a chance for unlawful killing? The man was reaching for his gun in his bag to kill more people (probably the police).
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 17817
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:09 am

Arion640 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

The best place for this person is Dead. No costly legal, time wasting trial.


Until his family sue the police for unlawful killing. :sarcastic:

I'm not saying I think it was, but such a lawsuit is a distinct possibility.



Surely they don’t have a chance for unlawful killing? The man was reaching for his gun in his bag to kill more people (probably the police).


Stranger things have happened. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the attacker or accusing the police, but I've seen no reports saying he had a gun. IMHO, the shooting was justified given the albeit fake suicide vest.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
P1aneMad
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:05 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:39 am

Do not stray away from our ideology dear comrades!
Diversity is our strength, refugees welcome, emigration from Islamic countries culturally enriches us, war is peace, freedom is slavery and ignorance is strength!
 
GDB
Posts: 13264
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:43 am

scbriml wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Until his family sue the police for unlawful killing. :sarcastic:

I'm not saying I think it was, but such a lawsuit is a distinct possibility.



Surely they don’t have a chance for unlawful killing? The man was reaching for his gun in his bag to kill more people (probably the police).


Stranger things have happened. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the attacker or accusing the police, but I've seen no reports saying he had a gun. IMHO, the shooting was justified given the albeit fake suicide vest.


Plus the fact that the officers likely knew he'd stabbed people already, seems he was disarmed by members of the public, (it has been suggested that the person who took one of his knifes and moved away was a plain clothes or off duty officer, though not confirmed), then once the 'vest' was seen and he was still struggling, including with armed officers, they moved themselves and others back and shot him until he stopped moving.

Seems he was wearing an electronic tag to monitor / restrict his movements post release, questions about how well THAT worked.
I was surprised that he was only jailed in 2012, there have been concerns about others who have or are ending their sentences, I assumed these would be those convicted in the 2000's, after 10-15 years inside.

If anyone might sue, it is the families of the two he killed and/or the three injured.
The Ministry Of Justice had better lawyer up.
I bet the police are less than pleased he was out too.
 
chimborazo
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:51 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:36 am

Hindsight will give the full story about what exactly happened and exactly how the poor 2 died and other 2 were injured. Praise indeed for the people who intervened and the police. I really hope the family don’t sue etc.

For those who think shooting him in the head was a bit extreme (we know now he was wearing a hoax vest) for those people and police there in that moment he was about to detonate a suicide vest. No ambiguity- eliminate the threat. Same as if you rob a bank with a fake gun you get done for armed robbery the same as if it was real because for other people it is real.

I watched the video of him getting double-tapped in the head and although I don’t like to see people killed it was satisfying to see. There is no place in this world for people like that. Wrap his corpse in a pig skin and throw it in the sea. These losers want to be martyrs for their “religion of peace” hence wearing the fake vest... deny them that.
 
GDB
Posts: 13264
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 12:49 pm

Confirmed that the man who took one of the knifes off the terrorist was a British Transport Police Officer, the sequence of events on the bridge here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8b-i_o1SdM
 
Bongodog49
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:35 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:47 pm

Indeterminate sentences were outlawed following an edict from the European Court (this not the European Union so no Brexit arguments please) We signed up for the European Human rights act under Tony Blair.
The result is that the courts give a sentence of imprisonment in terms of a set number of years. This sentence is automatically reduced by 50% unless the prisoner commits a crime whilst in prison. A further reduction is usually given if the prisoner has conducted themself in such a way as to qualify for early release with an electronic tag.
The perpetrator of this crime will have met all these requirements, hence being out and about yesterday.

One member of the public grabbed a narwal tusk from Fishmongers hall, what a choice of weapon !!!
 
Jetty
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:11 pm

The UK's justice system is twisted. Khan's sentencing judge:

'There is no doubt that anyone convicted of this type of offence could legitimately be considered dangerous.

'There is an argument for concluding that anyone convicted of such an offence should be incentivised to demonstrate that he can safely be released; such a decision is then better left to the Parole Board for consideration proximate in time to the date when release becomes possible.'


Tarole board after the guy gets released after serving only half his sentence.

'The Parole Board can confirm it had no involvement with the release of the individual identified as the attacker, who appears to have been released automatically on licence (as required by law), without ever being referred to the Board.'

:bomb:
Last edited by Jetty on Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 592
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:15 pm

Reason why stuff like this happens more often in Europe than the US is actually not because of religion, it is because of integration.

For some reason, European immigrants, particularly South Asian groups have a tendency to live in ethnic enclaves whereas this doesn't happen anywhere in the US besides maybe some parts of NY and NJ. Ethnic enclaves essentially allow a person to live in a community that is like a bubble where there is no need to interact with different ethnic groups (read native Brits and other immigrants) since everything is available within the confines of that enclave of people with the same ethnic background and they are effectively insulated in a community within a community. This is a double edged sword because it makes life adjustment into the west for an immigrant much easier in Europe than for an immigrant to the US. However, this same insulation and ability to never have to really interact with the locals or the outside world is also the same reason why US immigrants are more successful than their European counterparts. The relative lack of enclaves in the US forces immigrants to adjust to the local culture and thus prevents many of the negative effects that would be associated with living in an echo chamber. When somebody strays off the safe path in Europe, it is much harder to detect because that person may have little to no interaction with locals who would find such behavior odd, for a person living in an enclave, obvious warning signs can go completely unnoticed since they are surrounded by people where they don't stand out as much. In the US, however, the lack of enclaves means warning signs are caught much earlier than in Europe, because most immigrants are assimilated to a much higher degree than in Europe and as immigrants in the US interact much more with the locals, it is easier to spot the odd man out.

What needs to be done is to promote better integration and assimilation of immigrants into Europe like in the US. The problem is that Europe is terrified of this thinking that more assimilation is a mistake when it is actually the solution to their problems.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9251
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:36 pm

So while their is condemnation of the system for releasing one individual early, another inmate on a day release is a potential hero?
Is this for real?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... an-21.html
 
SueD
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:45 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Reason why stuff like this happens more often in Europe than the US is actually not because of religion, it is because of integration.

For some reason, European immigrants, particularly South Asian groups have a tendency to live in ethnic enclaves whereas this doesn't happen anywhere in the US besides maybe some parts of NY and NJ. Ethnic enclaves essentially allow a person to live in a community that is like a bubble where there is no need to interact with different ethnic groups (read native Brits and other immigrants) since everything is available within the confines of that enclave of people with the same ethnic background and they are effectively insulated in a community within a community. This is a double edged sword because it makes life adjustment into the west for an immigrant much easier in Europe than for an immigrant to the US. However, this same insulation and ability to never have to really interact with the locals or the outside world is also the same reason why US immigrants are more successful than their European counterparts. The relative lack of enclaves in the US forces immigrants to adjust to the local culture and thus prevents many of the negative effects that would be associated with living in an echo chamber. When somebody strays off the safe path in Europe, it is much harder to detect because that person may have little to no interaction with locals who would find such behavior odd, for a person living in an enclave, obvious warning signs can go completely unnoticed since they are surrounded by people where they don't stand out as much. In the US, however, the lack of enclaves means warning signs are caught much earlier than in Europe, because most immigrants are assimilated to a much higher degree than in Europe and as immigrants in the US interact much more with the locals, it is easier to spot the odd man out.

What needs to be done is to promote better integration and assimilation of immigrants into Europe like in the US. The problem is that Europe is terrified of this thinking that more assimilation is a mistake when it is actually the solution to their problems.


Miss informed drivel

The UK has many many educated and wealthy Sub continental members of the greater society EVERYWHERE including Bangladeshi Indian Hindu and Sikhs working across the nation including within our valued NHS .

Nothing prevents aspirations cepting own family peer pressure particularly among ethnic Pashtun populations
 
SueD
Posts: 70
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2019 11:35 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:10 pm

Clustering which certainly exists and as opposed to ghettoisation tends to be more an economical construct than an ethnic issue in reality.

Poor educational and economical attainment combined with social and welfare will result in this effect whilst it’s true to say first generation migrants found themselves working in the clothing industries in northern towns in particular.

However that’s not exactly unique . Prior migrants from Eastern Europe had trodden a similar path several decades before hand, also driven by an economical imperative .
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12396
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:45 pm

Airstud wrote:
seb146 wrote:
There are Buddhists who are murderers


That one I have some trouble believing...


Buddhism is the official religion in Thailand, 95% of the population are Buddhists, they still have murderers in Thailand.
 
Jetty
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Sat Nov 30, 2019 10:37 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Reason why stuff like this happens more often in Europe than the US is actually not because of religion, it is because of integration.

How about many European countries have over 5% Muslims and the US just 1%? All other things being equal Western Europe would already have many more terrorists than Europe.

Only New Jersey has a somewhat similar Muslim demographic as Europe with 3% and guess what? They have Muslim enclaves (Paterson i.e.) as well, including the terrorists that live there.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-new-y ... SKBN1D2187

I’m sure there are differences between the US and Europe but a fundamental difference in segregation ain’t it, that’s just a numbers game.
 
Arion640
Posts: 2503
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:50 am

sonicruiser wrote:
Reason why stuff like this happens more often in Europe than the US is actually not because of religion, it is because of integration.

For some reason, European immigrants, particularly South Asian groups have a tendency to live in ethnic enclaves whereas this doesn't happen anywhere in the US besides maybe some parts of NY and NJ. Ethnic enclaves essentially allow a person to live in a community that is like a bubble where there is no need to interact with different ethnic groups (read native Brits and other immigrants) since everything is available within the confines of that enclave of people with the same ethnic background and they are effectively insulated in a community within a community. This is a double edged sword because it makes life adjustment into the west for an immigrant much easier in Europe than for an immigrant to the US. However, this same insulation and ability to never have to really interact with the locals or the outside world is also the same reason why US immigrants are more successful than their European counterparts. The relative lack of enclaves in the US forces immigrants to adjust to the local culture and thus prevents many of the negative effects that would be associated with living in an echo chamber. When somebody strays off the safe path in Europe, it is much harder to detect because that person may have little to no interaction with locals who would find such behavior odd, for a person living in an enclave, obvious warning signs can go completely unnoticed since they are surrounded by people where they don't stand out as much. In the US, however, the lack of enclaves means warning signs are caught much earlier than in Europe, because most immigrants are assimilated to a much higher degree than in Europe and as immigrants in the US interact much more with the locals, it is easier to spot the odd man out.

What needs to be done is to promote better integration and assimilation of immigrants into Europe like in the US. The problem is that Europe is terrified of this thinking that more assimilation is a mistake when it is actually the solution to their problems.



Absolutely bang on.
No bumps. No bangs - Concorde
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12011
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:41 pm

BoJo trying to put this on Corbyn is really pathetic. The guy was sentenced 2 years into Cameron's premiership, released under May, and committed his attack under BoJo !

Furthermore, the law dating back from Labour governement wouldn't have seen him freed at half his sentence, in fact under that law he would still be in jail !

As for blaming Europe/ECJ, once again look at France, there is no automatic release of anyone at half sentence in France. It is possible for first offenders, decided by a judge. First offenders are very rarely in jail to begin with, unless they have committed something really serious (plotting for a terrorist attack would apply). What is more common is to be released after 2/3 of a sentence has been served. Still, nothing automatic.

For some sexual offenders/murderers, they can be held after having served their sentence. There are talks about widening this to apply it to terrorists.

Also, this guy was caught using a honey pot if I understand it correctly. This is not possible in France. You have to wonder if you haven't created a terrorist yourself by doing that. Imagine being led on by police, not committing any serious offense (he didn't hurt anyone), and getting jailed for 16 years, as a young man !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Bongodog49
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:35 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:32 pm

Aesma wrote:
BoJo trying to put this on Corbyn is really pathetic. The guy was sentenced 2 years into Cameron's premiership, released under May, and committed his attack under BoJo !

Furthermore, the law dating back from Labour governement wouldn't have seen him freed at half his sentence, in fact under that law he would still be in jail !

As for blaming Europe/ECJ, once again look at France, there is no automatic release of anyone at half sentence in France. It is possible for first offenders, decided by a judge. First offenders are very rarely in jail to begin with, unless they have committed something really serious (plotting for a terrorist attack would apply). What is more common is to be released after 2/3 of a sentence has been served. Still, nothing automatic.

For some sexual offenders/murderers, they can be held after having served their sentence. There are talks about widening this to apply it to terrorists.

Also, this guy was caught using a honey pot if I understand it correctly. This is not possible in France. You have to wonder if you haven't created a terrorist yourself by doing that. Imagine being led on by police, not committing any serious offense (he didn't hurt anyone), and getting jailed for 16 years, as a young man !


Not sure where you are picking up your "facts" Indeterminate sentences were outlawed as a result of us signing up for the ECJ, as he then received as a result a determinate sentence, under the long standing rules in the UK release at 50% of sentence is more or less automatic, certainly any law passed under a previous Labour govt would have seen him released.

We could of course change our rules and stop release at 50% of sentence, it might happen under a Conservative Govt, but no chance with Jermey Corbyn.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9029
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:19 pm

Whole of life orders are still being given.

There was one in 2019.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6095
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:26 pm

France is about the last country in the world to lecture anyone on handling terrorism.
 
Bongodog49
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:35 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:29 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Whole of life orders are still being given.

There was one in 2019.


Whole of life is ok as it is definitive.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 832
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:05 am

SueD wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
Reason why stuff like this happens more often in Europe than the US is actually not because of religion, it is because of integration.

For some reason, European immigrants, particularly South Asian groups have a tendency to live in ethnic enclaves whereas this doesn't happen anywhere in the US besides maybe some parts of NY and NJ. Ethnic enclaves essentially allow a person to live in a community that is like a bubble where there is no need to interact with different ethnic groups (read native Brits and other immigrants) since everything is available within the confines of that enclave of people with the same ethnic background and they are effectively insulated in a community within a community. This is a double edged sword because it makes life adjustment into the west for an immigrant much easier in Europe than for an immigrant to the US. However, this same insulation and ability to never have to really interact with the locals or the outside world is also the same reason why US immigrants are more successful than their European counterparts. The relative lack of enclaves in the US forces immigrants to adjust to the local culture and thus prevents many of the negative effects that would be associated with living in an echo chamber. When somebody strays off the safe path in Europe, it is much harder to detect because that person may have little to no interaction with locals who would find such behavior odd, for a person living in an enclave, obvious warning signs can go completely unnoticed since they are surrounded by people where they don't stand out as much. In the US, however, the lack of enclaves means warning signs are caught much earlier than in Europe, because most immigrants are assimilated to a much higher degree than in Europe and as immigrants in the US interact much more with the locals, it is easier to spot the odd man out.

What needs to be done is to promote better integration and assimilation of immigrants into Europe like in the US. The problem is that Europe is terrified of this thinking that more assimilation is a mistake when it is actually the solution to their problems.


Miss informed drivel

The UK has many many educated and wealthy Sub continental members of the greater society EVERYWHERE including Bangladeshi Indian Hindu and Sikhs working across the nation including within our valued NHS .

Nothing prevents aspirations cepting own family peer pressure particularly among ethnic Pashtun populations

You misunderstand. This is not about lack of economic integration. This is about a large portion of immigrants being ghettoized from the broader community, and not feeling any connection towards said broader society. You don't see that with non Latino or Hispanic immigrants in the US as far as I am aware.
 
GDB
Posts: 13264
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:31 am

It's not as simple as certain people make out, notably a man like Johnson who only utters a truth by accident, also known for never checking facts before opening mouth, would not consider, election or not.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... rom-prison

If he gets his way, and cannot blame 'Europe' any more, (the default position for made in UK cock ups), who gets the blame next time?
(Gutting the probation service in a botched half baked privatisation by who else, Chris Grayling, hasn't helped in dealing with end of term prisoners either).
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12011
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:07 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
France is about the last country in the world to lecture anyone on handling terrorism.


You need to have a terrorism problem first before you can prove you can handle it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ltbewr
Posts: 14426
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:37 pm

In the USA since the 1970's extended or life without parole sentences for those that commit murder or commit terrorist acts with murder. In large part that was due to political pressure after a number of infamous murders and the rise of drug trade related murders and by the 1990's, to include terrorism. There have also been cases in the USA where terrorists have killed but not killed by police at the time and place of their acts, in part so can determine if they were part of larger plot and just out of proper justice. For example, in October 31, 2017, a person in a rented pickup truck ran over people near the WTC site in NY City killing several and injuring a number of others. He was apprehended without being shot at by police although they drew out their guns to use deadly force in case he did have a bomb, a gun or a knife and threatened others or themselves with death.
There is a certain satisfaction that a terrorist or multiple murderer get killed by police at the time and place of their act. That is true in the case of London with a long history of terrorist violence going back to the IRA days and several events in recent years. Some terrorists want to die by 'suicide by cop' or explode a vest on them or shoot themselves after committing a very public act of murder for their own sick egos or cause. How cops react is a complex situation, more likely to cultural factors, the UK police rarely do shoot alleged criminals and when they do, there is a very strong review process as to justification.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6095
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:15 pm

Aesma wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
France is about the last country in the world to lecture anyone on handling terrorism.


You need to have a terrorism problem first before you can prove you can handle it.

France doesn't have a terrorism problem?
 
extender
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:07 pm

Time to ban the knives. Oh, wait...
 
User avatar
trpmb6
Posts: 2812
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:15 pm

Almost 50 posts and no one has mentioned how badass the guy with the Narwhal tusk is?!?!?
 
mrgrtt123
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:09 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:28 am

The family of London Bridge attacker Usman Khan have said they are "saddened and shocked" by what happened and "totally condemn his actions".

Is it just me who thinks that the world is getting scary lately.
 
sevenair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2001 7:18 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:54 pm

Yes. Its right wing terrorism we need to worry about. It is just right wing media making up stories that there is a problem with radical Islam. Something like that anyway.
 
extender
Posts: 406
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:52 am

Re: London Bridge Attack

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:55 pm

I now know where Schiff gets his information from. Tea leaves are more reliable.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17717
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: London Bridge Attack

Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:28 pm

extender wrote:
I now know where Schiff gets his information from. Tea leaves are more reliable.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen you make a cogent argument, let alone one with a citation. $1 says you get your information from forwarded AOL emails your grandson has to print for you.

sevenair wrote:
Yes. Its right wing terrorism we need to worry about. It is just right wing media making up stories that there is a problem with radical Islam. Something like that anyway.

Pretty much.

“We also found Ideologically motivated murders by white supremacists increased in 2018 to 17, from 13 in 2017, while violent Salafist Jihadist killings dropped to only one.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 17986.html
E pur si muove -Galileo

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 1337Delta764 and 13 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos