caliboy93
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What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:19 pm

So let's say if America colonized India during the 19th century and not the British, and exerted its cultural, political, and economic influence over there. How would India be different?
 
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stl07
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:38 pm

Basically, you would get the Philippians with darker people

Or you could end up with a PR situation but I doubt that considering the distance
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SueD
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:19 pm

I'd have to say in that fantasy world , and using historical references imho the US of the time may have made a much bigger mess of the sub continent than the various European powers of the day - India being not just a British but also Portuguese and French construct !

As for partition just don’t get me started - Ethnic cleansing always a Baaaaad idea !
 
sonicruiser
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:57 pm

As a Pakistani, I wonder if we would have gotten a separate state under America. Since I don't know the answer to that, despite all British misgivings, I am happy that Britain granted us a separate state from India and wouldn't have it any other way.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:03 pm

The Britannica article on the US and the Philippines, as suggested in an earlier post, is most likely the pattern we would have seen. The first legislative body (in SE Asia!) was established within the first ten years of occupation. The two American political parties differed only in how quickly independence would take place.

https://www.britannica.com/place/Philip ... -influence
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:21 pm

The Europeans would still have beat us by a century, so impossible. In fact, the Brits and Portuguese were in India before the Pilgrims landed in Plymouth Plantation.
 
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casinterest
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:45 am

The US in the 19th century was all about expansion on the American Continent. India was not a goal of the time. This question is mute.

Especially when you think about how the America was "found" by Western Europe. They were looking for a quicker route to India.
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sonicruiser
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:00 am

casinterest wrote:
The US in the 19th century was all about expansion on the American Continent. India was not a goal of the time. This question is mute.

Especially when you think about how the America was "found" by Western Europe. They were looking for a quicker route to India.


Little did they realize that America is about as far as you can get from India. But I'd say Europe's little experiment with America worked out pretty well haha :lol:
 
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casinterest
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:03 am

sonicruiser wrote:
casinterest wrote:
The US in the 19th century was all about expansion on the American Continent. India was not a goal of the time. This question is mute.

Especially when you think about how the America was "found" by Western Europe. They were looking for a quicker route to India.


Little did they realize that America is about as far as you can get from India. But I'd say Europe's little experiment with America worked out pretty well haha :lol:


It is an interesting experiment right. It got out of hand and backfired on them, and then saved them from a force within. Will the same repeat itself in the future?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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seb146
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 5:51 am

Interesting question. Look at what happened in Hawaii thanks to American military might. And, as someone mentioned up the thread, Philippines. I think it would be a "meh" situation. Look how quickly we left Philippines. We helped kick out the Spanish forces and, after that, why should we care? I think it would be the same. We helped kick the Japanese out of China but, after that, who cares? I think India would be smaller. There would be different nations. Maybe more civil wars.
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Redd
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:20 pm

caliboy93 wrote:
How would India be different?



Much wider waistlines.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:36 pm

And England would not have as many curry houses as the do now, we would still be eating fish and chips.
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TryToFlySomeday
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:26 am

sonicruiser wrote:
As a Pakistani, I wonder if we would have gotten a separate state under America. Since I don't know the answer to that, despite all British misgivings, I am happy that Britain granted us a separate state from India and wouldn't have it any other way.

As a Pakistani living IN America, I could say the answer would be a resounding “no”.

While I agree having a separate state was overall the best decision, I wonder sometimes if India got the better deal out of Partition. ISIS is making moves in Balochistan, minority rights are barely existent (although that is improving under Imran Khan, while ironically most of India is going in our direction).

And ultimately, Kashmir is still a nuclear flashpoint.
We can’t even make a climate agreement with India even though climate change will destroy us both!

India’s only major loss in Partition is that they have the killers of Mahatma Gandhi ruling over them. There’s no way he [Narendra Modi] would’ve gotten elected if there were no Pakistan or Bangladesh. 600 million Muslims would be in India, therefore we’d be a well respected population: versus only 200 million Muslims, where only Hindu votes matter.

I agree the separate state was the better choice: for who it was the better choice is the question
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Arion640
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:47 am

very little would be different except India would be speaking american english not british. It would still be the same overpopulated slab of land is it is today. Maybe without Bangladesh and Pakistan though.
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BawliBooch
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:01 am

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
While I agree having a separate state was overall the best decision, I wonder sometimes if India got the better deal out of Partition. ISIS is making moves in Balochistan, minority rights are barely existent (although that is improving under Imran Khan, while ironically most of India is going in our direction).

At independence, India and Pakistan made diametrically opposite choices. India at independence was led by Western educated, secular, mostly left leaning politicians like Nehru, Ambedkar and Patel who got to work creating the institutional framework needed to support a constitutional democracy. This institutional framework is what kept Indian democracy alive for over 60 years. By murdering Mahatma Gandhi, the fascist RSS became a political pariah and was relegated to the sidelines.

Pakistan started out well. Unfortunately, your equivalent of Nehru - Liaquat Ali Khan - was assassinated almost immediately and the men who followed in his wake did not have the same strength of character needed to uphold democracy paving the way for military rule. Every West Point graduate military general who took over, from Ayub to Musharraf, felt the need to coopt the Radical crazies on your side instead of pushing them to the sidelines.

The RSS in India did not keep silent after murdering Gandhi. They worked quietly on the sidelines, ingratiating themselves with the establishment, getting their camp followers into the existing political parties as well as institutions like the judiciary. Our big mistake was we got complacent and allowed this to happen. It took 67 years for the secular, liberal edifice to fall enabling the fascist takeover of India.

India in 2014 became exactly what Jinnah had predicted in 1940 when he raised the demand for Pakistan.

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
And ultimately, Kashmir is still a nuclear flashpoint.
We can’t even make a climate agreement with India even though climate change will destroy us both!

Kashmir is a fixed match. Neither India nor Pakistan can make a move. They do not want to solve the problem. In Kashmir, Politicians on both sides have a convenient issue to polarize people on their side of the border and win rigged elections! Why solve a problem that keeps on giving?

Unfortunately, stuck in the middle are the 8 million Kashmiri people. For over a 100 days now, the Kashmir valley has been under a brutal military lockdown imposed by the fascist govt in Delhi. Who even cares about them?

The only solution as I see it, is for the international community to keep both India and Pakistan out and militarily enforce the 1948 UN resolution #47 by conducting a plebiscite to enable Kashmiris to determine their own future. But will Western countries be ready to impose sanctions on India and Pakistan and send troops to enforce the plebiscite?

The only Western politicians who have spoken for the Kashmiri people so far are Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn. Nobody else could be bothered! :cry: Our own liberal hack Justin Trudeau could not care less. He is more interested in posing in fancy dress with Dear Leader for cheap PR thrills!
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Kiwirob
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:56 am

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
As a Pakistani, I wonder if we would have gotten a separate state under America. Since I don't know the answer to that, despite all British misgivings, I am happy that Britain granted us a separate state from India and wouldn't have it any other way.

As a Pakistani living IN America, I could say the answer would be a resounding “no”.

While I agree having a separate state was overall the best decision, I wonder sometimes if India got the better deal out of Partition. ISIS is making moves in Balochistan, minority rights are barely existent (although that is improving under Imran Khan, while ironically most of India is going in our direction).

And ultimately, Kashmir is still a nuclear flashpoint.
We can’t even make a climate agreement with India even though climate change will destroy us both!

India’s only major loss in Partition is that they have the killers of Mahatma Gandhi ruling over them. There’s no way he [Narendra Modi] would’ve gotten elected if there were no Pakistan or Bangladesh. 600 million Muslims would be in India, therefore we’d be a well respected population: versus only 200 million Muslims, where only Hindu votes matter.

I agree the separate state was the better choice: for who it was the better choice is the question


With all the different ethnicities in pre separation India, it really should have been split into more than 3 countries.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:41 pm

Redd wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
How would India be different?



Much wider waistlines.


It appears India achieved that goal.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:53 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Redd wrote:
caliboy93 wrote:
How would India be different?



Much wider waistlines.


It appears India achieved that goal.


I didn't notice a lot of fat people when I was there in November 2018.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:38 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
Redd wrote:


Much wider waistlines.


It appears India achieved that goal.


I didn't notice a lot of fat people when I was there in November 2018.


There are a lot more now compared to the past. Consumption of processed and fast food are two main reasons. I cringe when someone claims Cereal is a healthy breakfast than traditional Indian breakfast.
 
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csturdiv
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:25 am

They would be playing baseball rather than cricket.
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olle
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:11 pm

Would america have let millions to starve to death?

Would the killing of demonstrating people been remembered?
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Thu Dec 05, 2019 6:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
TryToFlySomeday wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
As a Pakistani, I wonder if we would have gotten a separate state under America. Since I don't know the answer to that, despite all British misgivings, I am happy that Britain granted us a separate state from India and wouldn't have it any other way.

As a Pakistani living IN America, I could say the answer would be a resounding “no”.

While I agree having a separate state was overall the best decision, I wonder sometimes if India got the better deal out of Partition. ISIS is making moves in Balochistan, minority rights are barely existent (although that is improving under Imran Khan, while ironically most of India is going in our direction).

And ultimately, Kashmir is still a nuclear flashpoint.
We can’t even make a climate agreement with India even though climate change will destroy us both!

India’s only major loss in Partition is that they have the killers of Mahatma Gandhi ruling over them. There’s no way he [Narendra Modi] would’ve gotten elected if there were no Pakistan or Bangladesh. 600 million Muslims would be in India, therefore we’d be a well respected population: versus only 200 million Muslims, where only Hindu votes matter.

I agree the separate state was the better choice: for who it was the better choice is the question


With all the different ethnicities in pre separation India, it really should have been split into more than 3 countries.

The whole purpose of having India as it is today is so the states are united, which comes in handy when there is a common threat to the subcontinent: and no I'm not talking about Pakistan, I'm talking about China.

Splitting up India into 52, or Pakistan into 4 would only make the Chinese gov's job to assert their dominance in Asia easier.
Pakistan's aviation sector is coming back. It won't be as strong as our eastern neighbor, nowhere close, but it's going to grow over time. Stand by and watch.

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slider
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:24 pm

csturdiv wrote:
They would be playing baseball rather than cricket.


Talk about missed opportunities, LOLOL!!

:laughing:
 
Sokes
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Re: What if Americans, not the British, colonized India?

Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:14 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
As a Pakistani, I wonder if we would have gotten a separate state under America. Since I don't know the answer to that, despite all British misgivings, I am happy that Britain granted us a separate state from India and wouldn't have it any other way.


And why would you not have it any other way?

During the second world war it was a possibility to have enemy armies get weakened by sickness, not to say decimated by malnourishment and lowered immune system. Indeed it happened to the Japanese in Burma.

"In early 1944, the Allies began tentative advances into Burma. ...
The result of the battles was a crushing Japanese defeat. The Japanese suffered 85,000 casualties, mainly from sickness and disease after their supplies ran out. The Allies had been continually supplied from the air, in the largest operation of its type to that date."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteent ... ed_Kingdom)#Defending_India

I should really read Churchill's "the second world war" before making a statement, but I have a suspicion that Churchill intended Bengal as a trap for the Japanese. The Japanese didn't fell for it, so 2-3 million Bengalis starved to death unnecessary. But then there were 50 million victims of WW2. Churchill had to make choices which would always lead to the death of lots of people. I believe to resupply Japanese troops over the mountain range would have been very difficult. I assume the British fleet was superior. By landing troops the British may have been able to encircle Japanese troops if Japanese had occupied Bengal. Was it strategically wrong to create food shortage in vast areas of Bengal?
World food prices skyrocketed that time.
https://ourworldindata.org/food-prices
Food was short all over India. There was no willingness to share from Bengal's neighbors.

"... Symptomatic, too, was the response of representatives of the other provinces to Suhrawardy’s statement at an All-India Food Conference in July that Bengal was ‘in the grip of a very great famine, probably of a size and nature that may be equal to the Orissa famine of 1867’: they greeted the suggestion by another delegate that ‘the only reason why people are starving in Bengal is that there is hoarding’ with applause." http://researchrepository.ucd.ie/bitstr ... quence%3D1

If you had to be the Orissa or Bihar Hindu with food shortage: Would you have shared?

So I can understand that Bengali Muslims afterwards said that they want to go their own way. "Direct action day" is an ugly moment for Muslims in India's history. But in context with the famine I can understand it and it did lead to the desired result. However the side effect was 20 million refugees and maybe 500.000 dead.
I'm not so convinced about the motivation at that time of Muslims in what is today Pakistan. Only the rich 12% or so of population was allowed to vote. The percentage of educated Hindus was much higher than the percentage of educated Muslims. Educated Muslims knew that in their own country they would face little competition and could choose among best of jobs. How difficult is it to raise religious emotions or to rally people behind a flag?

Are you aware that for the majority of India's independent history Congress was in power? Are you aware that Congress tries to get the 35% or so required votes by pleasing minorities and scheduled castes and scheduled tribes?
Muslims aren't persecuted. The government gives them preference. I guess India is world champion when it comes to positive discrimination. I tell you as a Christian and foreigner.

If I meet Pakistanis in Germany and tell them that I'm married to an Indian they always treat me as brother in law. So I'm confused. Do you love or do you hate India?

So what about American colonization? I guess I let a Filipino answer.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?

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