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Mortyman
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More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:00 pm

More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

In a joint statement Friday, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden said they are in the process of become shareholders of the Instrument in Support of Trade Exchanges (INSTEX). Britain, France and Germany launched INSTEX in January to enable companies to trade with Iran without using U.S. dollars or going through U.S. banks, thereby shielding such companies from U.S. sanctions.


https://www.voanews.com/middle-east/voa ... tions-iran


Trump and Bibi not happy ...
 
Kiwirob
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:18 pm

We also need a rest of the world alternative to the US dominated credit card market. I also guess any methods used to get around US sanctions on Iran will also be useful for Russia.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:20 pm

Mortyman wrote:
More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

In a joint statement Friday, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden said they are in the process of become shareholders of the Instrument in Support of Trade Exchanges (INSTEX). Britain, France and Germany launched INSTEX in January to enable companies to trade with Iran without using U.S. dollars or going through U.S. banks, thereby shielding such companies from U.S. sanctions.


https://www.voanews.com/middle-east/voa ... tions-iran


Trump and Bibi not happy ...


Good. Another sign that US dominance is over.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Mortyman
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Fri Dec 06, 2019 6:24 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
We also need a rest of the world alternative to the US dominated credit card market. I also guess any methods used to get around US sanctions on Iran will also be useful for Russia.



Russia has apparently already shown an interest to join
 
Dieuwer
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:45 pm

Mortyman wrote:
More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

In a joint statement Friday, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden said they are in the process of become shareholders of the Instrument in Support of Trade Exchanges (INSTEX). Britain, France and Germany launched INSTEX in January to enable companies to trade with Iran without using U.S. dollars or going through U.S. banks, thereby shielding such companies from U.S. sanctions.


https://www.voanews.com/middle-east/voa ... tions-iran


Trump and Bibi not happy ...


I don't understand. Why the need to set up a new Exchange? How about just using Euros?
 
anrec80
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:55 am

Mortyman wrote:

Russia has apparently already shown an interest to join


Yepp, they did. And - they also are doing similar things, such as special economic zones with increased privacy of transactions, and with trade in RUB.
 
anrec80
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:14 am

Kiwirob wrote:
We also need a rest of the world alternative to the US dominated credit card market. I also guess any methods used to get around US sanctions on Iran will also be useful for Russia.


The alternatives do exist - China, Russia have them. Russians already developed their methods, and the EU might as well talk to them to gain experience.

Russian payment system is also beginning to enter European markets. They understood this need in 2014 when facing sanctions threat. This system is designed for transactions in RUB, uses Russian built hardware and software, and information on all RUB transactions remains in Russia. In addition, Visa and MasterCard were also imposed a bunch of requirements on. They now have to bring hardware to Russia, process all RUB transactions in Russia, keep all information on them in Russia, and to not report these transactions to any outside regulators. Hence you can find Russian issued Visa and MasterCard working in Crimea.

Hence EU (or at least Eurozone) needs to develop one as well. And the silliest thing is - there was a system called Europay, which was sold to MasterCard in 2002. Somehow this sale was approved. But back then - it was a different time, when financial flows were not used a means of brutal political pressure.
 
Subwayfan1998
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:57 am

will EU Slaps US with Sanctions?
 
BN747
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:35 am

Dutchy wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

In a joint statement Friday, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden said they are in the process of become shareholders of the Instrument in Support of Trade Exchanges (INSTEX). Britain, France and Germany launched INSTEX in January to enable companies to trade with Iran without using U.S. dollars or going through U.S. banks, thereby shielding such companies from U.S. sanctions.


https://www.voanews.com/middle-east/voa ... tions-iran


Trump and Bibi not happy ...


Good. Another sign that US dominance is over.


Whose 'dominance' then would you prefer?

Being the herd animals that we are..we require a dominant leader in every grouping from a date/small grouping to nations.

So then, name a preferred dominant suitable to your liking.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Dutchy
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:20 am

anrec80 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
We also need a rest of the world alternative to the US dominated credit card market. I also guess any methods used to get around US sanctions on Iran will also be useful for Russia.


The alternatives do exist - China, Russia have them. Russians already developed their methods, and the EU might as well talk to them to gain experience.

Russian payment system is also beginning to enter European markets. They understood this need in 2014 when facing sanctions threat. This system is designed for transactions in RUB, uses Russian built hardware and software, and information on all RUB transactions remains in Russia. In addition, Visa and MasterCard were also imposed a bunch of requirements on. They now have to bring hardware to Russia, process all RUB transactions in Russia, keep all information on them in Russia, and to not report these transactions to any outside regulators. Hence you can find Russian issued Visa and MasterCard working in Crimea.

Hence EU (or at least Eurozone) needs to develop one as well. And the silliest thing is - there was a system called Europay, which was sold to MasterCard in 2002. Somehow this sale was approved. But back then - it was a different time, when financial flows were not used a means of brutal political pressure.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

you crack me up, you want the EU to adopt a Russian system? Thanks but no thanks. I do not want important infrastructure to be in the hands of a militaristic, autocratic regime which has been proven not to be trusted with anything. So please leave your Putin propaganda with yourself, it has no place here.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:24 am

With Nato on the brink of destruction what we see now might be for the US what 1920s was for the Brittish empire.
 
olle
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:28 am

Dutchy wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
We also need a rest of the world alternative to the US dominated credit card market. I also guess any methods used to get around US sanctions on Iran will also be useful for Russia.


The alternatives do exist - China, Russia have them. Russians already developed their methods, and the EU might as well talk to them to gain experience.

Russian payment system is also beginning to enter European markets. They understood this need in 2014 when facing sanctions threat. This system is designed for transactions in RUB, uses Russian built hardware and software, and information on all RUB transactions remains in Russia. In addition, Visa and MasterCard were also imposed a bunch of requirements on. They now have to bring hardware to Russia, process all RUB transactions in Russia, keep all information on them in Russia, and to not report these transactions to any outside regulators. Hence you can find Russian issued Visa and MasterCard working in Crimea.

Hence EU (or at least Eurozone) needs to develop one as well. And the silliest thing is - there was a system called Europay, which was sold to MasterCard in 2002. Somehow this sale was approved. But back then - it was a different time, when financial flows were not used a means of brutal political pressure.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

you crack me up, you want the EU to adopt a Russian system? Thanks but no thanks. I do not want important infrastructure to be in the hands of a militaristic, autocratic regime which has been proven not to be trusted with anything. So please leave your Putin propaganda with yourself, it has no place here.



This has a part of thuth in it. EU governments and companies now make the question regarding Azure and Amazon if there is political risk connected.

This will spread to other areas now banking transactions tomorrow creditcards and Nato.

Bad for US is that there is no UK at the table where decisions is made to put its veto.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:35 am

BN747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran



https://www.voanews.com/middle-east/voa ... tions-iran


Trump and Bibi not happy ...


Good. Another sign that US dominance is over.


Whose 'dominance' then would you prefer?

Being the herd animals that we are..we require a dominant leader in every grouping from a date/small grouping to nations.

So then, name a preferred dominant suitable to your liking.

BN747


I do no subscribe to your premise. I would like to see our leaders to cooperate guided by making the world better. That is my naive world vision. In real life, we are going to see the world divided in 3 regions: America's continued to be dominated by USA, Europa. Africa, dominated by the strengthened and more self-aware EU and Asia (Russia will be included in that zone), dominated by China. Australia and New Zealand will probably be included in the Asia zone. Dominance, as you call it, is fine, as long as the same values are pursued, we see with America that they have drifted away from core values so they are losing their leadership.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:49 am

Subwayfan1998 wrote:
will EU Slaps US with Sanctions?


EU can try, but, obviously, this will not end well. EU doesn’t have its own economic infrastructure. Even financial transactions among EU members go through SWIFT and US Dollar system and get reported to US government. Contracts between them also are written in USD. EU doesn’t have functional capital markets, insurance markets. In these circumstances, apparently, sanctions standoff similar to the one Russia is having now will end up simply devastating EU. Yes, there is some dependency in the USA upon EU, but it’s not as critical and the US will fix those issues within a few years. EU however will have its economy in pieces and will require decades to recover it to a functional state.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:32 am

anrec80 wrote:
Subwayfan1998 wrote:
will EU Slaps US with Sanctions?


EU can try, but, obviously, this will not end well. EU doesn’t have its own economic infrastructure. Even financial transactions among EU members go through SWIFT and US Dollar system and get reported to US government. Contracts between them also are written in USD. EU doesn’t have functional capital markets, insurance markets. In these circumstances, apparently, sanctions standoff similar to the one Russia is having now will end up simply devastating EU. Yes, there is some dependency in the USA upon EU, but it’s not as critical and the US will fix those issues within a few years. EU however will have its economy in pieces and will require decades to recover it to a functional state.


So you are saying that Russia isn't coping well with the sanctions placed on them, good to hear you have some sense of reality.

As for the remainder of you propaganda comments, it is a complete and utter bull. Why hasn't the EU giving in to all the demands the US has to complete a comprehensive trade deal? Because the EU is so dependent on the US? US and EU working together is a win-win, a term you Russians should learn sometimes. That said, we know you want to split the EU and the US apart, that is the ultimate goal of your Putin's Russia.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
anrec80
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:57 am

Dutchy wrote:
So you are saying that Russia isn't coping well with the sanctions placed on them, good to hear you have some sense of reality.



Why is EU then looking for a way out of their sanctions, along with whole Ukrainian mess? Russia manages their situation well, I am not concerned about them. You should be concerned about the EU and the fact that it has no chance in such attack. You should read sentences more carefully.

As for the remainder of you propaganda comments, it is a complete and utter bull.

Dutchy wrote:
Why hasn't the EU giving in to all the demands the US has to complete a comprehensive trade deal?



Who said you aren’t giving in? Trump administration just demanded that you stop trade with Iran, and you did just that the next day.


Dutchy wrote:
Because the EU is so dependent on the US? US and EU working together is a win-win, a term you Russians should learn sometimes. That said, we know you want to split the EU and the US apart, that is the ultimate goal of your Putin's Russia.


As I said before - USA will also inevitably have their share of costs in such standoff. Maybe it’s just that gains from forcing you into an agreement like this aren’t outweighing the costs and risks of the standoff for them?
 
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Aesma
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:51 am

China will be the first economic power, it doesn't mean it will dominate. Most people outside China don't want to live under a dictatorship, so China can't export its values. People don't have a "Chinese dream" like they used to have an American one.

Europeans have put too much trust in the US, getting less and less in return. NSA has no problem spying on our companies to undercut us in exports, the US justice system is used to bully European companies, etc. There is no way we will make the same mistakes with China !

Now back to the thread, putting up an independant payment system like Russia has done is trivial. A startup with 3 people can do that nowadays. The difficulty here is that it would not be independent, the goal is that companies from many countries can use it, and trust it.

Usually for an international transaction of significance, you would use a major bank. The problem is that all these major banks deal with dollars. So there is a need to create a new major bank from scratch, basically.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
BN747
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

Good. Another sign that US dominance is over.


Whose 'dominance' then would you prefer?

Being the herd animals that we are..we require a dominant leader in every grouping from a date/small grouping to nations.

So then, name a preferred dominant suitable to your liking.

BN747


I do no subscribe to your premise. I would like to see our leaders to cooperate guided by making the world better. That is my naive world vision. In real life, we are going to see the world divided in 3 regions: America's continued to be dominated by USA, Europa. Africa, dominated by the strengthened and more self-aware EU and Asia (Russia will be included in that zone), dominated by China. Australia and New Zealand will probably be included in the Asia zone. Dominance, as you call it, is fine, as long as the same values are pursued, we see with America that they have drifted away from core values so they are losing their leadership.


'My Premise'..is the factual history of human migration and leadership history which led us to where we are today.

That's not anyone's premise..that is the story of us.

'You would like to see' falls right into the sack of what little kids 'would like to see' each time one sits on Santa's lap. It is naive as hell because your simplistic dream world has zero merit, beefy on wishes and that's about it. Yes, we have a worthless bumbling idiot doing serious damage to the America reputation and standing in the world, but it has reached the rubicon point that you are so gleefully wish it so, another for years of the fat fool will guarantee America's demise, but we are not there yet.

"Dominance, as you call it, is fine, as long as the same values are pursued"...dominance is all that our histories speak of, you have no choice in 'being fine with it', it was here before you and it will be here long long after you are gone. And guess what 'core values' are no more aligned today than they were 100 years ago. As educated as much of the world has become versus 100 years ago, weasels, snakes, idiots and the worst humans find their way to power time after time again - that assures you that the world vision you have will remain your dream.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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par13del
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:30 pm

Aesma wrote:
Europeans have put too much trust in the US, getting less and less in return. NSA has no problem spying on our companies to undercut us in exports, the US justice system is used to bully European companies, etc. There is no way we will make the same mistakes with China !

The current EU was a brainstorm decades ago to have Europe consolidate to be a bulwark against the USA, so been done. The EU has its own legal system so mostly all done, now if there are any mistakes in those creations they can be easily rectified.
On the spying front, the US is in the minor leagues on that front, the rest of the world perfected spying long before the US and continue to do so with minimal percentage points of the billions the US is spending.
WWII showed us that the only persons the US could hide their nuclear program from was their own citizens...
The last trade deal that POTUS cancelled had the EU getting more than 50%, not much return for their efforts there either.

Aesma wrote:
Usually for an international transaction of significance, you would use a major bank. The problem is that all these major banks deal with dollars. So there is a need to create a new major bank from scratch, basically.

Ok, I am confused here, if the problem is that all the major banks deal with dollars why do you need a new bank, is that not what the Euro was ultimately supposed to be, an alternative to the US Dollar? All the banks have to do is to trade in both and the EU can mandate that all EU trades are done in Euros and then it will spread, there is already a currency exchange where the Euro is traded against the other major currencies, including the US dollar.
All major banks are not US Banks nor all controlled by US interest, so the alternative already exist. Brexit is an opportunity for EU financial institutions.

I think the question is why are folks hedging their bet's, switch away from the US dollar and go, it may be rough or it may not be rough, but fear should not be used to hold back ambitions.
 
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par13del
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:38 pm

Aesma wrote:
China will be the first economic power, it doesn't mean it will dominate. Most people outside China don't want to live under a dictatorship, so China can't export its values. People don't have a "Chinese dream" like they used to have an American one.

Unlike when the Soviet Union was engaged, the Chinese have not been trying to export their values, what they have been doing is making more and more of countries economies dependent on their production and its cost benefits, the ripple effect of the current POTUS trade issues with China is not about how it will affect the USA economy.
 
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Aesma
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:39 pm

As I said the US uses its justice system to bully companies the world over. So if a bank uses dollars and euros, and deals with Iran in Euros, then it will instantly be banned from using dollars, fined by the US to the tune of billions, etc.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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par13del
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 1:50 pm

Aesma wrote:
As I said the US uses its justice system to bully companies the world over. So if a bank uses dollars and euros, and deals with Iran in Euros, then it will instantly be banned from using dollars, fined by the US to the tune of billions, etc.

...and the EU does not? Do you recall money laundering and the EU deciding that the Caribbean was the largest source of such activity, well guess what the EU used to demolish that industry in the Caribbean and put hundreds of persons out of jobs? France and the Netherlands even decided to also do sanctions outside of the EU after telling nations to negotiate with the EU, go figure.
Caribbean nations are being forced to implement "social unions" in some nations against their own constitutions, guess who is doing that and what methods they are using to do that, you guessed it, the EU legal system.

It is bet hedging, those European controlled banks do not have to trade in US dollars, how involved were US banks in the Greece financial crisis, the alternative is there, it was created for that purpose so it should be used.

Airbus is the largest a/c OEM in the world, why exactly are they opening production facilities in the USA, initially they said it was to hedge against financial losses in currency trading because they sold a/c is US dollars. Well guess what, the day when Airbus says it will only sell a/c in Euros will be praised as a coming of age, right now there is absolutely nothing to prevent them from doing so but will. Indeed on the production facilities in the USA, hundreds of Airbus a/c were being flown by USA carriers long before those facilities were opened, it was not to gain traction in a domestic market.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:37 pm

US hegemony was based on the old Rayburn wisdom (IIRC), if you want to get along, go along. But contrary to certain populist fables, the US did a lot of 'go along'. Lines in the sand gave a lot of room for allies, near allies, not quite allies, unaligned but in our camp nations to look after their own interests. The wiser amongst both parties worked at 'frenemy' status with enemies.

Currently all allies are treated as frenemies. Smart. As in NOT.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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seb146
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Re: More European Nations Join Effort to Bypass US Sanctions on Iran

Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:22 pm

Aesma wrote:
As I said the US uses its justice system to bully companies the world over. So if a bank uses dollars and euros, and deals with Iran in Euros, then it will instantly be banned from using dollars, fined by the US to the tune of billions, etc.


And those companies will leave the US. As in "products not available". This is very bad for trade from the United States point. We do not manufacture much of anything. We import a lot of things. So, we consumers in America will lose out.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!

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