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Dutchy
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Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:23 pm

The World Anti-Doping Agency’s decision to ban Russia from international sport for four years has divided sporting figures in the country, with some branding the punishment as a western conspiracy but others insisting “we got what we deserved”.


link

False play is rewarded with a ban, 4 years this time. So how will Russia get its act together and stops this institutionalized doping use? Now all Russian players are banned unless they prove that they haven't used by independent checks.

Of course, some Russians will claim that it is all a conspiracy and nothing is going on, but nobody believes such a statement anymore after so many years of proven deception. Sometimes it looks like Russia never went beyond the USSR times. Those times sports were considered national pride and state-run doping program were the norm in Eastern Europe.
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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:46 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Of course, some Russians will claim that it is all a conspiracy and nothing is going on, but nobody believes such a statement anymore after so many years of proven deception. Sometimes it looks like Russia never went beyond the USSR times. Those times sports were considered national pride and state-run doping program were the norm in Eastern Europe.


I don’t see any conspiracy here, but there certainly is an element of eliminating potentially strong competition, as it was the case in Pyeongchang. Nothing else. As WADA said recently - “those athletes who did not compete before 2016 should have no problems”. Obviously, had Russians athletes been consistently laggards, nobody would have cared.

After all - nobody has ever mentioned even one athlete who used this “alleged doping scheme”. And there still no proof to its existence either. As the “informer” Dr. Rodchenkov said at the court hearing under oath - “I don’t know any recipes of any cocktails, I did not give anything to anyone, and I don’t know who took what”. What other “doping scheme” reservations left?

In addition - WADA worked with RUSADA for the past 1.5 years and they approved all progress. All the staff and systems are new (and approved by them). This one now - related to the database which was with Russian investigative authorities. Russian sports officials had no influence or control over this. Hence - now they penalized people who were not there when the “alleged doping scheme” took place and could not have anything in common with it.

Overall, it’s getting all too common recently in the West - provide some loud, but unproven allegation, and then “provide a right to explain”. While such violations require investigation and proof, not “explanations”, obviously.

And I do not understand why Russians athletes are even going to those places and Olympics en-masse on these competitions, on such terms, and want to go there. I would simply not have - until they are ready to accept the national team with its full rights, at least. Until then - “Olympic agenda is of no interest in our society, thank you very much”.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Those times sports were considered national pride and state-run doping program were the norm in Eastern Europe.


Olympic sports was a pride in Russia - until all these decisions. But that considerably shattered, and Winter Olympics gained reputation of “competition of those suffering from asthma and those suffering from allergies” - due to large number of “therapeutic exemptions” issued to general leaders of these competitions. And this is something that’s certainly can be referred to as “state+WADA sponsored doping scheme”. Oh wait - this is within guidelines of WADA...

Overall, my interest to this matter is gone entirely. Someone wants to make those decisions - let them. Someone wants to go neutral - let them. And certainly support those who do not want to engage into these games. But I do not have even a single reason left to watch such Olympics and be interested in what’s going on there, that’s for sure.
 
SL1200MK2
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:39 am

I’ve always been fascinated by the kinds of people who like to win by cheating. It must be a really terrible existence to be proud of undeserved “wins”. Are they somehow proud of this kind of faked success?

It will be nice not seeing Russians at the Olympics coming up.
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:43 am

It's always funny to see who is more corrupt, the officials (like the FIFA Russia and Doha selections), or the players like Russia always is.
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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:53 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
It will be nice not seeing Russians at the Olympics coming up.


What’s nice here? Let’s say your country’s athlete wins, but not because he defeated his strongest competitor, but instead this competitor was kicked out of the race in some dirty way (like this one - using “group punishment” novelty, some unproven allegations, etc.). Will this medal not be devalued a bit? And whose this medal will belong to - the athlete or those who staged the scandal?
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:49 am

anrec80 wrote:
SL1200MK2 wrote:
It will be nice not seeing Russians at the Olympics coming up.


What’s nice here? Let’s say your country’s athlete wins, but not because he defeated his strongest competitor, but instead this competitor was kicked out of the race in some dirty way (like this one - using “group punishment” novelty, some unproven allegations, etc.). Will this medal not be devalued a bit? And whose this medal will belong to - the athlete or those who staged the scandal?


I think having pretty much the rest of the world minus the ones doping to compete against seems like sore try solid spread of competition.

Plus, I think you are wrong about it being a scandal that was staged, so I can’t really answer your question.
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:40 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
Plus, I think you are wrong about it being a scandal that was staged, so I can’t really answer your question.


The only scandal is the slap on the wrist punishment they got. They should have been suspended indefinitely, subject to having done enough in terms of criminally charging those behind it.

All the the defenders of the empire of evil MK2 have as defense is some whining about group punishment they make up, plus the usual conspiracy theories in line with "we had nothing to do with MH17 or election meddling".
Russian Athletes can of course still compete, only not for Russia. Russia should have been stripped retroactively back to the beginning of the scandal, not just for four years.

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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:53 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
I think having pretty much the rest of the world minus the ones doping to compete against seems like sore try solid spread of competition.


Well, in these decisions - nobody was ever bothering with whether or not this particular athlete had a doping track record or is totally clean. As I said - none of the investigations has ever mentioned even a single "suspect". Hence - loss of strong but legitimate contenders is a significant blow to the medal value.

SL1200MK2 wrote:
Plus, I think you are wrong about it being a scandal that was staged, so I can’t really answer your question.


If it's not staged then what it is? Was there ever any legitimate trial whether or not there actually was a doping scheme? Any independent adjudicating body (e.g. court, jurors' panel) has ever found that proven? And - is there any law, agreement or court precedent(s) that prescribes such blanket ban for 4 years? Anything establishing rights of defendants, responsibilities of investigators? Why not 2 and not 10? No, obviously - none of that whatsoever. WADA itself "investigated" some "whistle-blower" statements, then itself accused, "adjudicated" by voting and itself determined the punishment. Too few individuals got too much power, and staged it because they could.
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:05 am

anrec80 wrote:
Was there ever any legitimate trial whether or not there actually was a doping scheme? Any independent adjudicating body (e.g. court, jurors' panel) has ever found that proven? And - is there any law, agreement or court precedent(s) that prescribes such blanket ban for 4 years? Anything establishing rights of defendants, responsibilities of investigators? Why not 2 and not 10? No, obviously - none of that whatsoever. WADA itself "investigated" some "whistle-blower" statements, then itself accused, "adjudicated" by voting and itself determined the punishment. Too few individuals got too much power, and staged it because they could.


blablabla... sports is like a club. You can be kicked out for whatever reason, whenever the club decides to kick them out. They can go and cry at the Court of Sport Arbitration if they feel treated unfairly, which they won´t, and only individual athletes ever do. That court has a track record of being fair to the point of leaning towards innocent until proven guilty, which is too high a standard for civil cases anywhere else.

The simple fact that you ask for a legitimate trial makes pretty clear that there is a rock solid process behind the ban, you just need to discredit it as illegitimate. Which is of course party line.

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SL1200MK2
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:07 am

So what is the motivation behind them being banned, if not because they were caught doping?

It was to exclude a contender?
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:18 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
So what is the motivation behind them being banned, if not because they were caught doping?

It was to exclude a contender?


Bingo. Has someone ever caught those athletes who were not accepted into 2018 Olympics doping? No. Hence - simply dishonest competition.

Russian sports teams are well trained and strong, and just as in any competition there will be personalities who would want to get them eliminated - for commercial, prestige, leadership reasons. Inevitably.

Apparently some here got too much influence in one place, and determined they can do that, and found an excuse. They used "revelations" of Dr. Rodchenkov, even though he had far from stellar reputation and was even a defendant in a doping related criminal case. Had it not been him - it would have been something else, or even something made up. The most important thing - it's not about what exactly was being alleged, but the very fact that it's all the same people who investigate, allege, judge and then decide fates, all on the same spot.
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:44 am

tommy1808 wrote:
blablabla... sports is like a club. You can be kicked out for whatever reason, whenever the club decides to kick them out. They can go and cry at the Court of Sport Arbitration if they feel treated unfairly, which they won´t, and only individual athletes ever do.


Agree, and in addition - all the contracts of this "club membership", such as Olympic Charter, IOC and memberships in it, and the likes were written in times when there was big deal of trust in these institutions, there was no track record of authority abuse, and it was truly believed (not just stated) that "sports is above politics". Not much in those contracts can be challenged in courts even. And blanket bans like this, not even bothering to see whether or not each individual athlete has anything to do with what's being alleged - is the greatest way to destroy this tryst. It's time to change this "club" approach, obviously, in favor of something more structured.

tommy1808 wrote:
The simple fact that you ask for a legitimate trial makes pretty clear that there is a rock solid process behind the ban, you just need to discredit it as illegitimate. Which is of course party line.


Where was the process? Where do you see one? The same individuals investigated, adjudicated and penalized, without anything else. WADA doesn't even have any processes that could be called clearly defined.

A well defined process should involve at least clearly defined responsibilities of investigation, rights of the defendant (an athlete, a country, a sports organization), and an independent adjudicating body. It can even have a country with established legislature - in international commercial contracts they often define jurisdiction in which disputes between parties are to be resolved (e.g. Stockholm Arbitration Court, London courts, State of Delaware). Same requirements should be here, but there is none of that.

tommy1808 wrote:
That court has a track record of being fair to the point of leaning towards innocent until proven guilty, which is too high a standard for civil cases anywhere else.


So what - just keep issuing this kind of blanket bans, breaking thousands of careers, without any any standards at all, as it is now? Yes, there has to be a standard, and it better be high. No athlete or organization should be limited in their rights to compete without a decision of an independent adjudicating body, and with all rights and opportunities to present and defend themselves. As it is anywhere else in civil legislature. Then we will not have any sorts of "whistle-blowers" with reputation that is questionable at best.
Last edited by anrec80 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:48 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
So what is the motivation behind them being banned, if not because they were caught doping?

It was to exclude a contender?


Since Russia, given it is a fairly small country population wise, would not rank up anything close to the number of medals Russia needs for its ego they can not go without a organized doping system with government protection. If you think Brits are sensitive when they realize their empire is gone... Russians easily turn that up to 10 if you remind tham that Russia, other than being big, is pretty insignificant.

Even though Anrec80 will of course confirm it is to exclude a contender, keep in mind that no contender is actually excluded, no athletes are banned from participating. I am sure he won´t forget the strawman of no individual athlete having been caught, despite the fact that no individual athlete not being caught has been banned from participating, since as any troll tracker can tell you that is what Russian state media and the associated Bot armies are currently pushing hard.

They are banned because they had a system set up to enable doping without being detected, their athletes are not banned because it worked (or they where clean),

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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:57 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Since Russia, given it is a fairly small country population wise, would not rank up anything close to the number of medals Russia needs for its ego they can not go without a organized doping system with government protection.


There also are countries with stronger and weaker sports schools. Norway, Germany and Britain are also small population wise, but nonetheless they are consistently among leaders in Olympics.


tommy1808 wrote:
They are banned because they had a system set up to enable doping without being detected, their athletes are not banned because it worked (or they where clean),


Where's the scheme? Any law violation has a name - at least one. And schemes like this have thousands. But all the "investigations" haven't come up even with one single name - be it someone who approved its setup, or even an athlete who took this stuff using the scheme. And what did Dr. Rodchenkov say on the last CAS trial under oath? "I don't know any recipes, I don't know anyone who took anything, I did not give anything to anyone". Where else do I have left to find this scheme? I think this statement alone is reasonably enough to close this whole scheme case once and forever.

Hence I am saying - they did this blanket ban because they wanted to and could without any real investigation and proof.
Last edited by anrec80 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 6:59 am

anrec80 wrote:
So what - just keep issuing this kind of blanket bans, breaking thousands of careers, without any any standards at all, as it is now?.


as many times as you make that strawman argument it is impossible not to call you a liar. No Athlete has been banned, only that criminal countries flag they for some reason wanne compete under is.
IOC and others should take the Russian governments focused propaganda effort to discredit them to extend the ban until Russia officially and irrevocable pleads guilty.

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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:11 am

tommy1808 wrote:
No Athlete has been banned,


Then what happened to about 100 team leaders before 2018 Olympics? I guess we should say "they did not get an invitation".

tommy1808 wrote:
only that criminal countries flag they for some reason wanne compete under is.


I think so too. This whole thing is about the country being deemed criminal this time, and certainly not about athletes, doping or sports altogether.

tommy1808 wrote:
IOC and others should take the Russian governments focused propaganda effort to discredit them to extend the ban until Russia officially and irrevocable pleads guilty.


I agree with this too, frankly. IMHO, Russia should just leave that IOC and this "club" for good. Until there are clear rules of the game at least. There is nothing to do there until then.
 
tu204
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:51 am

tommy1808 wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Was there ever any legitimate trial whether or not there actually was a doping scheme? Any independent adjudicating body (e.g. court, jurors' panel) has ever found that proven? And - is there any law, agreement or court precedent(s) that prescribes such blanket ban for 4 years? Anything establishing rights of defendants, responsibilities of investigators? Why not 2 and not 10? No, obviously - none of that whatsoever. WADA itself "investigated" some "whistle-blower" statements, then itself accused, "adjudicated" by voting and itself determined the punishment. Too few individuals got too much power, and staged it because they could.


blablabla... sports is like a club. You can be kicked out for whatever reason, whenever the club decides to kick them out. They can go and cry at the Court of Sport Arbitration if they feel treated unfairly, which they won´t, and only individual athletes ever do. That court has a track record of being fair to the point of leaning towards innocent until proven guilty, which is too high a standard for civil cases anywhere else.

The simple fact that you ask for a legitimate trial makes pretty clear that there is a rock solid process behind the ban, you just need to discredit it as illegitimate. Which is of course party line.

best regards
Thomas


Which is exactly what many Russian athletes that were unfoundedly stripped of medals in Sochi did, and they won and got their medals back and the ban lifted, however they missed the 2018 games. And nobody from WADA was punished for the original action for some reason.
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:56 am

tu204 wrote:
nobody from WADA was punished for the original action for some reason.


Why would anyone be punished? Those are not criminal proceedings, there is no right to participate in any event whatsoever, to get medals or any recognition. They could sue for defamation of course, but they don´t.

Which is exactly what many Russian athletes that were unfoundedly stripped of medals in Sochi did, and they won and got their medals back and the ban lifted


thank you for confirming that the process is extremely fair to the standards of criminal cases with no reason to go beyond the standards of civilian disputes at best.

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Thomas
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:06 am

SL1200MK2 wrote:
So what is the motivation behind them being banned, if not because they were caught doping?

It was to exclude a contender?


Stop enabling our Russian friends here. In Russia, it is undermining the system of doping checks what is the problem. Russia can't be trusted and now faces the music. Russia did this all on its own and didn't show enough improvements after the last time they weren't allowed to compete. Russian athletes who aren't under the supervision of the Russian authorities a.k.a. live abroad and let their adopted home countries check them, will have no problem and will be allowed to compete.

Russian state needs to change its behavior if they want to compete and just follow the international standards, not winning, not accusing everyone but themselves, they are the key, nobody else. The Russian state is to blame.
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tu204
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:14 am

tommy1808 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
nobody from WADA was punished for the original action for some reason.


Why would anyone be punished? Those are not criminal proceedings, there is no right to participate in any event whatsoever, to get medals or any recognition. They could sue for defamation of course, but they don´t.

Which is exactly what many Russian athletes that were unfoundedly stripped of medals in Sochi did, and they won and got their medals back and the ban lifted


thank you for confirming that the process is extremely fair to the standards of criminal cases with no reason to go beyond the standards of civilian disputes at best.

best regards
Thomas


I agree that the CAS was impartial in reviewing the case, I did not bother to look into "why". Maybe the nationalities of the staff vs. that of WADA. I did not care to look into it as since this farce started back in 2015 I honestly lost interest in Olympic sports.

What I am trying to get across is that although the CAS acquitted them of wrongdoing, the some major damage was already done and it would be nice to see those making baseless actions at WADA be somehow held responsible and punished. Otherwise shit like what is happening now will keep happening.
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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:17 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Why would anyone be punished? Those are not criminal proceedings, there is no right to participate in any event whatsoever, to get medals or any recognition. They could sue for defamation of course, but they don´t.



So basically in WADA defamation should remain an OK thing? As I said - agreements, contracts and mandates were written a long time ago in such a way that WADA can’t be sued at all. But it doesn’t make it any more right. WADA should have fired those who allowed themselves groundless accusations, offer compensations and bring apologies at least. But nothing like this happened.

tommy1808 wrote:
thank you for confirming that the process is extremely fair to the standards of criminal cases with no reason to go beyond the standards of civilian disputes at best.



Where’s the fairness here? Essentially what happened was: “we will accuse you in this and that, you are kicked out of the race. Yes, you can sue and get restored - after the race. You prove yourself right - good for you. We’ll make up something else next time”. This is why I am saying - only an independent adjudication body should have a right to disqualify an athlete.
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:19 am

tu204 wrote:
What I am trying to get across is that although the CAS acquitted them of wrongdoing,.


they where not pronounced innocent, just that it is not impossible they didn´t cheat. That is different and way, way, way beyond the standard of non-criminal proceings.

I deleted the rest of your baseless dripple, you can safe time typing by just linking to the Russian Government propaganda outlet that defames WADA and its people.

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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:22 am

anrec80 wrote:
Bingo. Has someone ever caught those athletes who were not accepted into 2018 Olympics doping? No. Hence - simply dishonest competition.


You mean like Lance Armstrong was never caught doping? :rotfl:

I feel sorry for the genuinely clean athletes that will miss out representing their country, but they can still compete, so your bullshit claims about "eliminating strong athletes" doesn't stand up. What you seems to have ignored completely is that this is punishment for the state of Russia for it systemic falsification of doping results. The whole system in Russia is corrupt from the top. That's what this is about.
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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:34 am

tommy1808 wrote:
they where not pronounced innocent, just that it is not impossible they didn´t cheat. That is different and way, way, way beyond the standard of non-criminal proceings.


This can be said about absolutely any athlete - “not impossible they did not cheat”. It’s also not impossible that you did not kill anyone, it’s not impossible that you never molested any child, not impossible that you never defrauded any bank. See? Such logic can’t be grounds for making any decisions, and it simply doesn’t meet any standards whatsoever, be it for criminal or civil proceedings.

tommy1808 wrote:
defames WADA and its people.



You can’t defame WADA any more than it already did.
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:35 am

scbriml wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Bingo. Has someone ever caught those athletes who were not accepted into 2018 Olympics doping? No. Hence - simply dishonest competition.


You mean like Lance Armstrong was never caught doping? :rotfl:

I feel sorry for the genuinely clean athletes that will miss out representing their country, but they can still compete, so your bullshit claims about "eliminating strong athletes" doesn't stand up. What you seems to have ignored completely is that this is punishment for the state of Russia for it systemic falsification of doping results. The whole system in Russia is corrupt from the top. That's what this is about.


He doesn´t ignore that, he knows perfectly well and distorts it on purpose. Read his posting of tomorrow today: https://securingdemocracy.gmfus.org/hamilton-dashboard/ Just put WADA into the search field (and wait... its slow).

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tommy1808
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:41 am

anrec80 wrote:
You can’t defame WADA any more than it already did.


i would describe Putin as "he" and the FSB as "they", i am pretty sure "it" is grammatically wrong.
So, why are you trying to proof yourself wrong.

The only thing to make WADA look bad is letting Russia off way, way too easy, but that is understandable, their staff is probably not all to excited about getting murdered as that is essentially the standard mode of operation of, how you would call it, "it".

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Thomas
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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:47 am

scbriml wrote:
You mean like Lance Armstrong was never caught doping? :rotfl:


I don’t know anything about Lance Armstrong. If his violations were proven and he got disqualified - then it is absolutely right.

scbriml wrote:
I feel sorry for the genuinely clean athletes that will miss out representing their country, but they can still compete, so your bullshit claims about "eliminating strong athletes" doesn't stand up.


This is far from truth, to say the least. Yes, in itself the decision does not disqualify athletes. But the devil in the details. The decision does require athletes to obtain WADA approval to go. Who will be granting this approval and how? Any criteria?

Speaking of Olympics 2018 - only slightly more than half of Russian athletes who were supposed to go there got their invitations. None of the athletes who applied had any proven doping problems. And those who did not get theirs - were most established ones and likeliest to win medals. Today, per WADA - “athletes who did not compete prior to 2016 will likely not have any issues”. Does this already mean that more established ones (and who are likelier to win) - will have problems? This is why I am saying that this is simply to kick out competition the most dishonest ways. It has nothing to do with the country.
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:54 am

anrec80 wrote:
Yes, in itself the decision does not disqualify athletes


So you have been lying in every post in this threat so far.

The decision does require athletes to obtain WADA approval to go. Who will be granting this approval and how? Any criteria?.


You really don´t know anything that isn´t FSB approved do you? Its simply a closer monitoring regime to prevent the known FSB interference with Doping prevention from working.
Your complaint should go to the Russian government, they make life hard on those athletes.

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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:09 am

Dutchy wrote:
Defend the indefensible and above all the glorious Russian state can't do anything wrong.


What’s indefensible is that Russian state after 2017 went on to Olympics 2018 and continued to deal with these IOC and WADA, even seeking re-accreditation. They should have just ditched all this and reform their sports following American model, where nearly all sports business is tied to local and regional clubs, with US-specific sports. And those clubs and leagues, such as NHL, NBL, NFL don’t follow USADA or WADA whatsoever. Olympics and other international things for American society aren’t of much importance in general. Right before 2018 Mike Pence said - “if we aren’t confident in security, Team USA will not come”. And no national tragedies at all.

Similar should have been done by Russians - “sovereignize the sports”. Encourage Russian to support more of competitions like “Skiers from Krasnoyarsk vs Novosibirsk” or biathlon “Sochi vs St Petersburg” - competitions between local clubs. If some of them get invited somewhere else - to a world stage, to Olympics with full rights - alright. Someone wants to come - sure, be our guests. If not - not a big deal. Then WADA and the likes will stop making up stories - they simply will not be achieving any goals simply.

And certainly don’t seek any re-accreditation. They will eventually come and offer it themselves. Just as European Council a year ago or so.
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:16 am

anrec80 wrote:
Then WADA and the likes will stop making up stories -


and the defamation continues....

They will eventually come and offer it themselves. Just as European Council a year ago or so.


at least that can´t happen with the G8. Good news.

But its also good to see how you pretend Russia didn´t have to give in order to be present when sanctions are extended. .....

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Thomas
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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:19 am

tommy1808 wrote:
at least that can´t happen with the G8. Good news.


Don’t assume so - Trump already wanted to bring them back. Then, later - who knows. Russia isn’t even into G8. Speaking of IOC - if Bach ran to Pyongyang to encourage North Korea, he certainly would have been right around Russian sports authorities begging them to send a team after 3-4 cycles himself. There is absolutely no need for Russia to do anything about it.

tommy1808 wrote:
But its also good to see how you pretend Russia didn´t have to give in order to be present when sanctions are extended. .....


What do sanctions have to do with this sports-related thread?
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:55 am

anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
at least that can´t happen with the G8. Good news.


Don’t assume so - Trump already wanted to bring them back.


It is the G8, not the G11. Russia doesn´t qualify for the G8. The way things are going next year you won´t even be qualified for any G11 any more as South Korea is about to overtake your tiny economy. Heck, Argentina has more GDP per Capita..... with the rate of decline you won´t even make the G20 in a decade.

What do sanctions have to do with this sports-related thread?


Did you have a shift change or how can you forget within one post that you brought up the council.....

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Thomas
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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:00 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Did you have a shift change or how can you forget within one post that you brought up the council.....


I just gave that as an example of what to expect from these international bodies (especially those primarily staffed with Europeans) when you simply ignore them and don’t care about them. They then will be around your country trying to be important in your country’s life. This was the Council behavior when Russians said “we are looking to leave”, and this is how IOC generally behaves as well. Had Russians not sent their team to Korea but said “we do not need this” back then - IOC would have found a way to restore them and not even supported this farce. All their tough rhetoric - is good only for as long as there is grateful audience for it. If you will not be that grateful audience - there will be no rhetorics, investigations, decisions, etc.
Last edited by anrec80 on Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:08 am

anrec80 wrote:
there will be no rhetorics... investigations.


right, because the investigations are over and Russia got off easy.

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Thomas
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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:17 am

tommy1808 wrote:
right, because the investigations are over and Russia got off easy.



I don’t see why this should matter. IOC and Olympics should simply stop mattering in Russia’s sports life. If it wants to “investigate” something, “decide” on something - please, by all means, just without us. You want to invite us with full rights - let’s talk and see if there is any interest.

Going back in history - USSR joined Olympic Movement in 1952, and immediately became one of its leaders. Before that, the country built powerful industry, won WW2, and rebuilt itself after it. All without Olympics. That all shows that a nation can succeed and have a world-class sports without any involvement into any of these “sports clubs”.
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:26 am

anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
right, because the investigations are over and Russia got off easy.



I don’t see why this should matter. IOC and Olympics should simply stop mattering in Russia’s sports life. If it wants to “investigate” something, “decide” on something - please, by all means, just without us. You want to invite us with full rights - let’s talk and see if there is any interest. .


no one invites cheaters, so there is no interest unless you get your house in order. If you want Pharma-Olympics, have your own.

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Thomas
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anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:35 am

tommy1808 wrote:
no one invites cheaters, so there is no interest unless you get your house in order.


This is not about Europeans. They are after everyone who doesn’t care about them. After all, in Russia there are potentially 150M viewers, and also member dues, TV broadcast fees. And they are really sensitive to even small amounts of money.

tommy1808 wrote:
If you want Pharma-Olympics, have your own.



Pharma-Olympics do exist already. They are also known as Winter Olympics, and their leaders tend to stock up with “therapeutic exemptions”. For some reasons, those teams consist primarily of people with allergies or asthma. I even think that those teams should compete in Paralympics.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:44 am

anrec80 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Defend the indefensible and above all the glorious Russian state can't do anything wrong.


What’s indefensible is that Russian state after 2017 went on to Olympics 2018 and continued to deal with these IOC and WADA, even seeking re-accreditation. They should have just ditched all this and reform their sports following American model, where nearly all sports business is tied to local and regional clubs, with US-specific sports. And those clubs and leagues, such as NHL, NBL, NFL don’t follow USADA or WADA whatsoever. Olympics and other international things for American society aren’t of much importance in general. Right before 2018 Mike Pence said - “if we aren’t confident in security, Team USA will not come”. And no national tragedies at all.


US professional sport, especially the NFL is full of doped athletes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... all_League

From my perspective sport is full of athletes who have therapeutic use exemptions for a whole raft of banned substances, for example Simone Biles has an exemption for ADHA medication which is full of banned substances, my oldest son has ADHD, I've tried his Concerta medication, it's really focuses you mind, how can that not be an advantage for her. Most of the Norwegian cross country and biathlon team members use asthma medication, when they aren't asthmatic.

https://www.economist.com/game-theory/2 ... ug-testers

Either all athletes are clean or no athletes are clean, you can't have some with exemptions for PED use and punish other for using the same PED's without an exemption. So I say open it up, let athletes use PED's it would it a much simpler world with everyone being level.
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:02 am

anrec80 wrote:
It has nothing to do with the country.


You couldn’t be more wrong! It’s all about Russia’s systemic doping and the Russian authorities involvement in covering it up. Nothing else. Russia, the country, is being punished. Individual athletes (and this is not just about athletics) are collateral damage.

The clean ones should be campaigning for Russia to sort itself out, but we all understand why they might be reluctant to do that. :yes:
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ltbewr
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:35 am

One has to wonder how much doping is going on in China and other countries but get away with it for now.

To me most international sports competitions are badly damaged due to the massive corruption of politics, nationalism, money, commercialism, questionable and biased officiating, too many ads, inability to see events live and without excessive or biased commentary as well as the use of performance enhancing drugs and treatments (PEDT's). We also must not forget the terrible damage short and long term from the use of PEDT's, some of which may not show up for years, including cancers, heart disease and other illness, causing premature death or crippling disabilities later in life. The creation and enforcement as to PEDT's came about from too many athletes prematurely dying, changes in gender of female athletes in the former East Germany to other heath horrors.

There are key incentives to athletes all over the world to use PEDT's including money or better living conditions for the athletes and their families as well as personal and national pride from their use. When one can use a drug and make millions, including professional athletes in the USA, many will make the deal with the devil and use PEDT's to get paid now even if means dying sooner.

The exclusion of Russia is also fought with political issues. To keep them out of competitions is keeping out a major country of population, while not keeping out countries with horrible human rights policies like China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, and to some Israel and the USA,
 
tommy1808
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 11:58 am

anrec80 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
no one invites cheaters, so there is no interest unless you get your house in order.


This is not about Europeans. They are after everyone who doesn’t care about them. After all, in Russia there are potentially 150M viewers, and also member dues, TV broadcast fees. And they are really sensitive to even small amounts of money.


Russia as a market is tiny, not just small. A few million people from countries that are not largely poor not watching a sport event because the cheating Russians are there costs several times more as those Russian viewers can hope to be worth.

best regards
Thomas
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tommy1808
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:48 pm

ltbewr wrote:
One has to wonder how much doping is going on in China and other countries but get away with it for now.


plenty. Russia got away long enough and if a state actor really wants to they can do a lot to prevent detection. Russia may very well only have been caught because they don´t have sufficient resources and know how to avoid detection in the long run, and China may.

The exclusion of Russia is also fought with political issues. To keep them out of competitions is keeping out a major country of population, while not keeping out countries with horrible human rights policies like China, Cuba, Saudi Arabia, and to some Israel and the USA,


A long time ago it was decided that those events are about sports, not politics. Unless Saudi Athletes run faster because women get beheaded in Saudi Arabia that is unfortunately ok from the view point of Sports. I would also rather have a system where you a) have a democratically elected government and b) be in line with the Universal Declaration of Human rights, or you are excluded from everything but UN observer Status.

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Thomas
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Dutchy
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:06 pm

anrec80 wrote:
What’s indefensible is that Russian state after 2017 went on to Olympics 2018 and continued to deal with these IOC and WADA, even seeking re-accreditation. They should have just ditched all this and reform their sports following American model, where nearly all sports business is tied to local and regional clubs, with US-specific sports.


Fine, place Russia outside everything, just a big gate around it and let them fetch for themself. The North Korean model.
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Dieuwer
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:25 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Going back in history - USSR joined Olympic Movement in 1952, and immediately became one of its leaders.


Because they were using doping as far back as 1952? ;)
 
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:01 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Going back in history - USSR joined Olympic Movement in 1952, and immediately became one of its leaders.


Because they were using doping as far back as 1952? ;)


they certainly did: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/14/spor ... games.html

They 1980 games are largely refered to as Chemists' Games, but that was not just because of the USSR.

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Thomas
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alfa164
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:35 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
The only scandal is the slap on the wrist punishment they got. They should have been suspended indefinitely, subject to having done enough in terms of criminally charging those behind it. All the the defenders of the empire of evil MK2 have as defense is some whining about group punishment they make up, plus the usual conspiracy theories in line with "we had nothing to do with MH17 or election meddling". Russian Athletes can of course still compete, only not for Russia. Russia should have been stripped retroactively back to the beginning of the scandal, not just for four years.


:checkmark: Cheating, whether it be in sports, policics, or invasion of another sovereign country, is the modus operandi of the current Russian regime. And that cheating is quickly denied/justified/supported by the team of Russian "commentators" (we shouldn't use the "t" word here, should we?).

"In scrutinizing Russia, sports and antidoping officials have said they acted on objective forensic and scientific evidence of Russia’s fraud: documents, data, lab analyses and glass bottles of urine with telltale signs of tampering. Just as allies of the special counsel Robert Mueller have done this year in the context of the election inquiry, the officials have defended their impartiality and interest in plain facts. Three key whistle-blowers helped provide those facts: Grigory Rodchenkov, Russia’s former longtime chief antidoping chemist, as well as Yuliya and Vitaly Stepanov, a former Russian runner and a former employee of the nation’s antidoping agency. All now live in the United States, in undisclosed locations from which they have spoken openly about years of coordinated cheating."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/08/sunday-review/how-russia-cheats.html

And then the denials, excuses, and outright lies will follow.

https://medium.com/dfrlab/trolltracker-how-to-spot-russian-trolls-2f6d3d287eaa

scbriml wrote:
I feel sorry for the genuinely clean athletes that will miss out representing their country, but they can still compete, so your bullshit claims about "eliminating strong athletes" doesn't stand up. What you seems to have ignored completely is that this is punishment for the state of Russia for it systemic falsification of doping results. The whole system in Russia is corrupt from the top. That's what this is about.


:checkmark: :checkmark: The ban is not because one or two or a few athletes were cheating; it is enacted because the Russian State apparatus devised and implemented a scheme to cheat during athletic competition. Thus the ban focuses on that system, not on the totality of athletes who are in the unfortunate position of living in Russia today.
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seat64k
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:22 pm

On the topic, the documentary "Icarus" (2017, Bryan Fogel) is well worth a watch.

The basic idea was the film maker is a competitive cyclist. He wants to learn exatly how much doping helps, and make a documentary out of that. He starts asking around and ends up getting hooked up with a russion supplier. I won't spoil it, but lets just say he learns an awful lot about the Russian doping program. It's a wild ride!
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:31 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Russia as a market is tiny, not just small. A few million people from countries that are not largely poor not watching a sport event because the cheating Russians are there costs several times more as those Russian viewers can hope to be worth.


you know, for Europeans lately any amount of money is money. And Russia had quite large Olympic audience for sponsors and broadcasters.
 
anrec80
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Re: Russia banned from all world sporting events because of doping (again)

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:35 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Fine, place Russia outside everything, just a big gate around it and let them fetch for themself. The North Korean model.


Not completely, but getting out from the tables full of card sharpers is a good start (As these WADA and IOC have shown to be). Someone who wants to be honest has no business in such places.

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