sonicruiser
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India's lower House passes controversial citizenship bill

Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:31 pm

India yesterday passed a controversial bill called the CAB (Citizenship Amendment Bill) which offers citizenship to people from 3 nearby countries (Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh). The part of the bill that caused an uproar is the establishment of a religious test that only permits Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Sikhs and Parsis. Muslims are specifically excluded from the bill. This has resulted in widespread protests and internet cutoffs from the gov't particularly in the Northeastern states of India near Bangladesh which have already been hit with the NRC bill stripping Muslim migrants of citizenship. This new CAB bill is aimed at preventing any new Muslim migrants but allows any non-Muslim migrants to acquire Indian citizenship.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/worl ... -modi.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-50670393

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ng-muslims

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/12/ ... 02071.html
Last edited by SQ22 on Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Tue Dec 10, 2019 10:42 pm

If India truly wanted to protect minorities from Pakistan, they’d include the Ahmadiyya faith and Shia Muslims in that list. The fact that they didn’t shows a tad bit of ignorance.
Pakistan's aviation sector is coming back. It won't be as strong as our eastern neighbor, nowhere close, but it's going to grow over time. Stand by and watch.

Born to Pakistani parents near ORD; raised and based near ORD.
 
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stl07
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:55 pm

Modi is just another Populist leader. We see these leaders everywhere right now, including the US. I have no idea how we will stop this rise in populism
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
blrsea
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Wed Dec 11, 2019 3:20 am

Poor reading of the law. It doesn't ban citizenship for muslims of these countries . It fast tracks citizenship for minorities in pak/bangladesh/afghanistan who came to India as of Dec 2014 to escape atrocities in their countries. Muslims from these countries(and people from any other country irrespective of religion) are still eligible to apply for citizenship as per current process. The minorities in these countries as percentage of their population has come down from greater than 20% to less than 5% due to forcible conversions etc. It is routine for minor girls to be kidnapped & married after converting. Many have come to India over last 20-25 years and are in a state of limbo.

Regarding north-east in India protests, they are protesting granting citizenship to illegal bangladeshi hindus who fled to India during 1971 when pakistan unleashed terrible genocide on them (read up on bangaladesh genocide). The north-east of India is mainly tribal communities, and they don't want anyone - hindus or muslims or non-tribals from outside north-east in there. They want all the bangladeshis to be pushed out irrespective of their religion.

The Ahmedias were at the forefront of partition of India, and they wanted a separate muslim country. Its ironical that they were declared non-muslims in their own country, and Abdus Salam, the only nobel-laureate from pakistan was treated with disdain bcos he was an ahmadiya.
 
texdravid
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:58 am

Great bill.
Great Prime Minister who finally gets it.
No more Gandhis/Nehrus.
For all this complaining, go cry me a river.
India is the best thing in Southern Asia, and is fair.
India is simply tired of Muslims harassing and being violent in Pakistan with religious minorities.

I ask you, complainers, who has an easier lot in life?
A Hindu in Islamabad or a Muslim in India?

The answer is obvious. So obvious indeed.
Go Modi! May you and the BJP rule forever and keep the Congress prodigal son idiot away from power.
That’s you Rahul Gandhi you uneducated spoiled brat.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
golfradio
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:27 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
India yesterday passed a controversial bill called the CAB (Citizenship Amendment Bill) which offers citizenship to people from 3 nearby countries (Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh). The part of the bill that caused an uproar is the establishment of a religious test that only permits Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Sikhs and Parsis. Muslims are specifically excluded from the bill. This has resulted in widespread protests and internet cutoffs from the gov't particularly in the Northeastern states of India near Bangladesh which have already been hit with the NRC bill stripping Muslim migrants of citizenship. This new CAB bill is aimed at preventing any new Muslim migrants but allows any non-Muslim migrants to acquire Indian citizenship.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/worl ... -modi.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-50670393

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ng-muslims

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/12/ ... 02071.html


Muslims migrating from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan are economic refugees. What persecution are the muslims in islamic countries with single digit minorities fleeing? And if one counts Ahmediyas, Shias and other islamic sects as persecuted then even more shame on these islamic countries. It only goes to show how intolerant these countries are. Forget other religious minorites but they won't tolerate even minority muslim sects.

Pakistan today has less than 5% religious minorities, down from double digits during partition and Bangladesh has less than 10% minorities. So of course it makes absolute sense that refugees in India who are fleeing islamic persecution get preference over economic migrants (especially the very ones who forced the partition in the first place)
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:32 pm

Internet services have been cut off yet again in Tripura, Assam, and Arunachal Pradesh in the wake of massive protests against CAB.

https://www.news18.com/news/india/mobil ... 20653.html
 
BarfBag
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:17 am

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
If India truly wanted to protect minorities from Pakistan, they’d include the Ahmadiyya faith and Shia Muslims in that list. The fact that they didn’t shows a tad bit of ignorance.

Your diagnosis itself is wrong, so the prescription is irrelevant. The bill is not aimed at minorities in neighbouring countries . It's aimed at protecting people of Indic religions - Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, for whom India is the land of foundation of their faith. It is effectively a right of return for those people. Islam was founded in faraway Hejaz region of Saudi Arabia. Interestingly the bill permits Christians too - probably because they're a rounding error in terms of numbers, but offering them the gesture is good political optics. They should be encouraged to convert back to Hinduism as a corresponding gesture on their part.
 
alfa164
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 2:13 am

BarfBag wrote:
Interestingly the bill permits Christians too - probably because they're a rounding error in terms of numbers, but offering them the gesture is good political optics. They should be encouraged to convert back to Hinduism as a corresponding gesture on their part.


No, they shouldn't. No believer in any religion should be "encouraged to convert" - back or otherwise - to any particular religion. Religion should be a personal choice, and nations that dictate or discriminate any religion are an anathema to the free world. India is taking steps backward, to their own equivalent of the Dark Age, because Modi and his cronies want to pander to a Hindu majority. The politics of fear - of "us against them" - may bring temporary political gains, but is a long-run disaster for a country still struggling to enter the 20th Century - much less the 21st.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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Francoflier
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:30 am

stl07 wrote:
Modi is just another Populist leader. We see these leaders everywhere right now, including the US. I have no idea how we will stop this rise in populism


Last time around it took a World War and a couple of nuclear bombs.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
Jetty
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:39 am

Very smart decision by India. Muslims have 40+ Muslim countries to choose from. Major Muslim minorities are known to cause problems all over the world so no reason to give them citizenship in a non-Muslim country. Most countries in Asia get this while Europe is still stuck in it's 'freedom of religion' dogma. I'm all for freedom of religion as principle but history shows that this doesn't work well with Muslim minorities as they act violent if they don't get their way once it's to big of a minority and show no tolerance to others. With India's policy Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Sikhs and Parsis still get the equality they deserve.

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
If India truly wanted to protect minorities from Pakistan, they’d include the Ahmadiyya faith and Shia Muslims in that list. The fact that they didn’t shows a tad bit of ignorance.

Good point, it's Sunni Muslims India (and the rest of the world) should be worried about. Could add Alevites to that list. Sadly most people don't know enough about Islam to make that distinction.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:47 am

Jetty wrote:
Very smart decision by India. Muslims have 40+ Muslim countries to choose from. Major Muslim minorities are known to cause problems all over the world so no reason to give them citizenship in a non-Muslim country. Most countries in Asia get this while Europe is still stuck in it's 'freedom of religion' dogma. I'm all for freedom of religion as principle but history shows that this doesn't work well with Muslim minorities and they act violent if they don't get their way once it's to big of a minority. With India's policy Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Sikhs and Parsis still get the equality they deserve.


They’re already 14% (1 in 7) and they haven’t been causing much trouble (upsetting Hindu snowflakes by eating beef notwithstanding). Certainly killed a lot less Hindus than their Hindutva compatriots have killed Muslims in the last 30 years.

Disenfranchising them with these underhanded tactics will probably cause more trouble down the line. Creating disenfranchised nations within nations usually ends with blood.
 
Jetty
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:50 am

ElPistolero wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Very smart decision by India. Muslims have 40+ Muslim countries to choose from. Major Muslim minorities are known to cause problems all over the world so no reason to give them citizenship in a non-Muslim country. Most countries in Asia get this while Europe is still stuck in it's 'freedom of religion' dogma. I'm all for freedom of religion as principle but history shows that this doesn't work well with Muslim minorities and they act violent if they don't get their way once it's to big of a minority. With India's policy Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Sikhs and Parsis still get the equality they deserve.


They’re already 14% (1 in 7) and they haven’t been causing much trouble (upsetting Hindu snowflakes by eating beef notwithstanding). Certainly killed a lot less Hindus than their Hindutva compatriots have killed Muslims in the last 30 years.

Disenfranchising them with these underhanded tactics will probably cause more trouble down the line. Creating disenfranchised nations within nations usually ends with blood.

Not causing much trouble? :o They cleansed Kashmir.

The Hindus of the Kashmir Valley, were forced to flee the Kashmir valley as a result of being targeted by JKLF and Islamist insurgents during late 1989 and early 1990. Of the approximately 300,000 to 600,000 Hindus living in the Kashmir Valley in 1990 only 2,000–3,000 remain there in 2016.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus
Last edited by Jetty on Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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stl07
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:50 am

Jetty wrote:
Very smart decision by India. Muslims have 40+ Muslim countries to choose from. Major Muslim minorities are known to cause problems all over the world so no reason to give them citizenship in a non-Muslim country. Most countries in Asia get this while Europe is still stuck in it's 'freedom of religion' dogma. I'm all for freedom of religion as principle but history shows that this doesn't work well with Muslim minorities and they act violent if they don't get their way once it's to big of a minority. With India's policy Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Sikhs and Parsis still get the equality they deserve.

You can't have equality if it's only for some. That's not equality. If you don't want more Muslims, remove your "freedom of religion" clause and stop proclaiming that everyone is equal. The west won't do that because residents (myself included) prefer equality.

Interestingly enough, this is seen the most in Muslim countries where Muslims and Christians get the most amount of rights, and Jews get the least.
Last edited by stl07 on Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:04 am

Jetty wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Very smart decision by India. Muslims have 40+ Muslim countries to choose from. Major Muslim minorities are known to cause problems all over the world so no reason to give them citizenship in a non-Muslim country. Most countries in Asia get this while Europe is still stuck in it's 'freedom of religion' dogma. I'm all for freedom of religion as principle but history shows that this doesn't work well with Muslim minorities and they act violent if they don't get their way once it's to big of a minority. With India's policy Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Sikhs and Parsis still get the equality they deserve.


They’re already 14% (1 in 7) and they haven’t been causing much trouble (upsetting Hindu snowflakes by eating beef notwithstanding). Certainly killed a lot less Hindus than their Hindutva compatriots have killed Muslims in the last 30 years.

Disenfranchising them with these underhanded tactics will probably cause more trouble down the line. Creating disenfranchised nations within nations usually ends with blood.

Not causing much trouble? :o They cleansed Kashmir.

The Hindus of the Kashmir Valley, were forced to flee the Kashmir valley as a result of being targeted by JKLF and Islamist insurgents during late 1989 and early 1990. Of the approximately 300,000 to 600,000 Hindus living in the Kashmir Valley in 1990 only 2,000–3,000 remain there in 2016.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus


Really? We’re now conflating Indian muslims with Arab Jihadis redirected by the Pakistani ISI from Afghanistan? Don’t you think it’s a little odd that this cleansing only started in the late 80s, coinciding with the withdrawal of the USSR from Afghanistan, and not the 40 years preceding it (which included 3 India-Pakistan wars)? Were Indian muslims asleep at the wheel or something?

Let’s not rewrite history.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:11 am

stl07 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Very smart decision by India. Muslims have 40+ Muslim countries to choose from. Major Muslim minorities are known to cause problems all over the world so no reason to give them citizenship in a non-Muslim country. Most countries in Asia get this while Europe is still stuck in it's 'freedom of religion' dogma. I'm all for freedom of religion as principle but history shows that this doesn't work well with Muslim minorities and they act violent if they don't get their way once it's to big of a minority. With India's policy Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Sikhs and Parsis still get the equality they deserve.

You can't have equality if it's only for some. That's not equality. If you don't want more Muslims, remove your "freedom of religion" clause and stop proclaiming that everyone is equal. The west won't do that because residence (myself included) prefer equality.

Interestingly enough, this is seen the most in Muslim countries where Muslims and Christians get the most amount of rights, and Jews get the least.


The same folk who claim this is a good idea would be calling every white American and their dog “racist” if the US instituted similar rules privileging Indian Christians for US citizenship while simultaneously throwing roadblocks in the way of Indian Hindus.

Their lack of self-awareness is hilarious.
 
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stl07
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:22 am

ElPistolero wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Very smart decision by India. Muslims have 40+ Muslim countries to choose from. Major Muslim minorities are known to cause problems all over the world so no reason to give them citizenship in a non-Muslim country. Most countries in Asia get this while Europe is still stuck in it's 'freedom of religion' dogma. I'm all for freedom of religion as principle but history shows that this doesn't work well with Muslim minorities and they act violent if they don't get their way once it's to big of a minority. With India's policy Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Sikhs and Parsis still get the equality they deserve.

You can't have equality if it's only for some. That's not equality. If you don't want more Muslims, remove your "freedom of religion" clause and stop proclaiming that everyone is equal. The west won't do that because residence (myself included) prefer equality.

Interestingly enough, this is seen the most in Muslim countries where Muslims and Christians get the most amount of rights, and Jews get the least.


The same folk who claim this is a good idea would be calling every white American and their dog “racist” if the US instituted similar rules privileging Indian Christians for US citizenship while simultaneously throwing roadblocks in the way of Indian Hindus.

Their lack of self-awareness is hilarious.

And then the same people have the audacity to call the Muslim countries like Qatar and the UAE a place with "no human rights" when they are calling for the exact same thing in Europe
Instead of typing in "mods", consider using the report function.
Love how every "travel blogger" says they will never fly AA/Ethihad again and then says it again and again on subsequent flights.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:24 am

Feels like a Win for Freedom.

I'm glad that President Trump and the Israel Govt. is friendly with PM Modi and India. :thumbsup:
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
ElPistolero
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:35 am

stl07 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
stl07 wrote:
You can't have equality if it's only for some. That's not equality. If you don't want more Muslims, remove your "freedom of religion" clause and stop proclaiming that everyone is equal. The west won't do that because residence (myself included) prefer equality.

Interestingly enough, this is seen the most in Muslim countries where Muslims and Christians get the most amount of rights, and Jews get the least.


The same folk who claim this is a good idea would be calling every white American and their dog “racist” if the US instituted similar rules privileging Indian Christians for US citizenship while simultaneously throwing roadblocks in the way of Indian Hindus.

Their lack of self-awareness is hilarious.

And then the same people have the audacity to call the Muslim countries like Qatar and the UAE a place with "no human rights" when they are calling for the exact same thing in Europe


I don’t think India (or Europe) are at the same level as the UAE on human rights. In India’s case, the British-origin Indian legal system and US-inspired constitution won’t allow that without a lot more effort.

The exclusivist ideology motivating this support is, however, no different from the Muslim supremacists in the Gulf or the Christian Supremacists elsewhere. In this thread, we have a bunch of baby Stephen Millers who would be crying bloody murder if they or their family got Stephen Millered. I mean, restrict green card and US student visa eligibility exclusively to Indian Christians and watch some of these posters’ heads explode.

Personally, I wouldn’t mind it if Christian majority nations restricted all visa eligibility for the next 10 years to Indian christians only. Might allow some of the posters here to engage in some much needed introspection.
Last edited by ElPistolero on Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:36 am

Creating division, anger, resentment and fostering hatred have nothing to do with 'freedom'. Trump, Modi and the rest of their cohort are creating long lasting damage around the World which risks triggering nasty conflicts.
Anger and hatred, as much as their supporters love to revel in it, are just simplistic answers to complex issues which ultimately only make everything worse, and history provides endless proof of this. Unfortunately, those who vote for these people are far from being history scholars... or very knowledgeable at all.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:38 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Feels like a Win for Freedom.

I'm glad that President Trump and the Israel Govt. is friendly with PM Modi and India. :thumbsup:


Agreed. Some people are just incompatible with other cultures. If you want things like Sharia law then just stay put.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:40 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Feels like a Win for Freedom.

I'm glad that President Trump and the Israel Govt. is friendly with PM Modi and India. :thumbsup:


Not sure about that. Could cost evangelical votes.

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian- ... ist/india/
 
ElPistolero
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 4:47 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Feels like a Win for Freedom.

I'm glad that President Trump and the Israel Govt. is friendly with PM Modi and India. :thumbsup:


Agreed. Some people are just incompatible with other cultures. If you want things like Sharia law then just stay put.


I find that religious conservatives tend to be the most incompatible with other cultures. Perhaps the solution is to restrict immigration to liberals? But then, I suspect conservatives will be upset by how that affects elections. Tough nut to crack.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:01 am

ElPistolero wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Feels like a Win for Freedom.

I'm glad that President Trump and the Israel Govt. is friendly with PM Modi and India. :thumbsup:


Agreed. Some people are just incompatible with other cultures. If you want things like Sharia law then just stay put.


I find that religious conservatives tend to be the most incompatible with other cultures. Perhaps the solution is to restrict immigration to liberals? But then, I suspect conservatives will be upset by how that affects elections. Tough nut to crack.


Yet many liberala are quick to tell everyone not to condemn all Muslims when one of them carries out an attack. But I've never heard them say that we shouldn't condemn all Christians or shouldn't condemn allow white males. In fact it's the opposite, you'll find plenty of comments from liberals claiming that white men are the problem.
 
aerosreenivas
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:42 am

This harsh move by the BJP government is clearly showing signs of all the world communities including the US committees expressing their disappointment in Muslims being left out.

In the coming days, the Trump admin might consider imposing sanctions on the Indian government.

This will affect our economy definitely.
 
DeltaConnection
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:55 am

stl07 wrote:
Modi is just another Populist leader. We see these leaders everywhere right now, including the US. I have no idea how we will stop this rise in populism


Uh, aren’t world leaders supposed to be “popular” and “represent the majority of people” they serve?
 
YokoTsuno
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:20 am

DeltaConnection wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Modi is just another Populist leader. We see these leaders everywhere right now, including the US. I have no idea how we will stop this rise in populism
Uh, aren’t world leaders supposed to be “popular” and “represent the majority of people” they serve?
So that guy who was in charge in Germany in the thirties and forties was right all along? Very popular at the time, that dude.
 
bgm
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 10:30 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Feels like a Win for Freedom.

I'm glad that President Trump and the Israel Govt. is friendly with PM Modi and India. :thumbsup:


Not if you’re Muslim, Gramps. Bet you’d be singing a different tune if it was Christians being discriminated like this.
OK boomer.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:43 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:

Yet many liberala are quick to tell everyone not to condemn all Muslims when one of them carries out an attack. But I've never heard them say that we shouldn't condemn all Christians or shouldn't condemn allow white males. In fact it's the opposite, you'll find plenty of comments from liberals claiming that white men are the problem.


Without commenting on the factual accuracy of that statement, it strikes me as a very narrow US-centric assessment.

Outside the US - for example, in the country being discussed here - India, you will find that it’s liberals who are standing up for Christian minority rights - and, indeed, the protection of white Christian proselytizers from mob instincts.

They would make far more compatible immigrants in the West than virtually all religious conservative types who are infected with the exclusivism of religious supremacist beliefs - i.e. the tendency to view fellow citizens as not equal, or inferior.

But then again, they might have the temerity to have liberal views on economic and social issues too (e.g. LGBTQ) unlike, say, religious conservatives. Which creates a curious dilemma.
 
ElPistolero
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:52 pm

DeltaConnection wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Modi is just another Populist leader. We see these leaders everywhere right now, including the US. I have no idea how we will stop this rise in populism


Uh, aren’t world leaders supposed to be “popular” and “represent the majority of people” they serve?


No. Leaders are supposed to represent “all” of their people (majority and minority), not just the majority that supports them.

If, as your name suggests, you are American, you may want to go back to school and read up on James Maddison, Alexis de Tocqueville, John Stuart Mill and the concept of “tyranny of the majority”. It played a crucial role in shaping the development and institutions of US democracy.

Also, “popular” and “populist” don’t mean the same thing. Might want to read up on the meaning of words before you use them.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:51 pm

DeltaConnection wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Modi is just another Populist leader. We see these leaders everywhere right now, including the US. I have no idea how we will stop this rise in populism


Uh, aren’t world leaders supposed to be “popular” and “represent the majority of people” they serve?


The population of India: 1.3 Billion
Registered Voters: 899 Million
Voters voted in 2019: 67% of registered voters: 602 Million
BJP vote share: 37.4% casted votes : 225 Million

Yes, this is how elections in democracy work, but 225 Million is not a majority of 1.3 Billion.

65,000 paid social media workers and 500,000 volunteers on the internet are making it look like leader is populist.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:16 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
DeltaConnection wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Modi is just another Populist leader. We see these leaders everywhere right now, including the US. I have no idea how we will stop this rise in populism


Uh, aren’t world leaders supposed to be “popular” and “represent the majority of people” they serve?


No. Leaders are supposed to represent “all” of their people (majority and minority), not just the majority that supports them.

If, as your name suggests, you are American, you may want to go back to school and read up on James Maddison, Alexis de Tocqueville, John Stuart Mill and the concept of “tyranny of the majority”. It played a crucial role in shaping the development and institutions of US democracy.

Also, “popular” and “populist” don’t mean the same thing. Might want to read up on the meaning of words before you use them.


Be realistic, leaders represent those who voted them into office, which is why we should be very careful and very economical in handing over our rights, our sovereignty and our property to them. Government should play a very small role in a nation.

The US was based on very limited and constrained government balanced between the three branches and the states. Modernity has corrupted the original design and handed too much power to power-mad populists. Of both parties.
 
DeltaConnection
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:16 pm

Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:52 am

ElPistolero wrote:
DeltaConnection wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Modi is just another Populist leader. We see these leaders everywhere right now, including the US. I have no idea how we will stop this rise in populism


Uh, aren’t world leaders supposed to be “popular” and “represent the majority of people” they serve?


No. Leaders are supposed to represent “all” of their people (majority and minority), not just the majority that supports them.

If, as your name suggests, you are American, you may want to go back to school and read up on James Maddison, Alexis de Tocqueville, John Stuart Mill and the concept of “tyranny of the majority”. It played a crucial role in shaping the development and institutions of US democracy.

Also, “popular” and “populist” don’t mean the same thing. Might want to read up on the meaning of words before you use them.


Thanks for the condescending lesson hombre. I sure didn't feel represented under the Clinton and Obama administrations.
 
DeltaConnection
Posts: 70
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:54 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
DeltaConnection wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Modi is just another Populist leader. We see these leaders everywhere right now, including the US. I have no idea how we will stop this rise in populism


Uh, aren’t world leaders supposed to be “popular” and “represent the majority of people” they serve?


The population of India: 1.3 Billion
Registered Voters: 899 Million
Voters voted in 2019: 67% of registered voters: 602 Million
BJP vote share: 37.4% casted votes : 225 Million

Yes, this is how elections in democracy work, but 225 Million is not a majority of 1.3 Billion.

65,000 paid social media workers and 500,000 volunteers on the internet are making it look like leader is populist.


Except both India and the United States aren't Democracies.
 
sonicruiser
Topic Author
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:11 am

golfradio wrote:
Muslims migrating from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan are economic refugees. What persecution are the muslims in islamic countries with single digit minorities fleeing? And if one counts Ahmediyas, Shias and other islamic sects as persecuted then even more shame on these islamic countries. It only goes to show how intolerant these countries are. Forget other religious minorities but they won't tolerate even minority muslim sects.


I want to preface by saying that this law is extremely complicated and intentionally designed to be misleading in its purpose to the average person, it took me almost 2 days to think how I should explain it, and even then, it is very difficult to understand some aspects of this bill which make no logical sense other than if done on the basis of an agenda of hatred that doesn't care for logic or common sense. That said, I will do my utmost to explain this bill in my best abilities.

There is zero chance of anyone with Pakistani or Bangladeshi citizenship migrating to India. The odds of Afghan refugees coming to India are equally low since Pakistan hosts 76 times as many Afghan refugees as India. Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh were thrown into this bill just as smoke and mirrors to divert attention from where all the Muslim refugees are really coming from and that is Myanmar. By adding Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh into the bill, the BJP probably thought they could distract people from the fact that there is an actual ethnic cleaning of Muslims occurring in Myanmar causing them to flee since Muslims being genocided goes against the BJP's narrative of Muslims as invaders and oppressors. Essentially the BJP gov't wants to hide the fact that Muslims from Myanmar actually ARE fleeing genocide from a non-Muslim country because if the masses of India knew that, it would make it much more difficult for people to support an exclusion of Muslims. Also because it is the biggest irony that the isolation of Muslims in a Muslim minority country like Myanmar exactly mirrors what is happening to Muslims in India itself, where they are also a minority. The BJP's narrative has always been the exact opposite where it is 1 billion Hindus being persecuted by 200 million Muslims in India and that is impossible for Muslims to be the victims when the BJP has historically always painted Muslims as enemy invaders to gain political points with the Hindu majority. If the masses of India realized that that Muslims are being genocided in Myanmar, the BJP's narrative of Muslims as invaders would make no sense since Muslims cannot be invaders if they themselves are fleeing genocide in Myanmar. If the theory of Muslim invaders is debunked, the BJP would lose political support since gaining the vote of Hindu nationalists depends on how strongly you can paint Muslims as the enemy, hence why the BJP is desperate to distract people's attention away from the genocide of Muslims in Myanmar. The way that they did this was by completely excluding Muslim migrants from Myanmar from the eligibility list of this bill altogether and instead diverting everyone's attention by replacing those Muslim migrants with non-Muslim minorities from Muslim majority countries in an effort to spin discrimination as a positive. Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh were added in the bill for no other reason than purely to divert attention and confuse people. Myanmar is a Muslim minority country, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh are Muslim majority countries. BJP only wants to allow in non-Muslims to make it seem like it wants to help persecuted minorities from enemy Islamic countries. The big problem with that logic is that the number of minorities in Muslim majority countries migrating to India is a fraction of those migrating to India from Muslim minority countries. This is an inconvenient fact for the BJP since their whole narrative is to pretend it wants to help minorities fleeing religious persecution from Muslim countries but no one is fleeing Muslim majority countries into India en masse. The Muslim refugees that actually ARE flooding India in the hundreds of thousands are not coming from Muslim majority countries, they're fleeing Muslim minority countries like Myanmar.

Basically, BJP claims that no Muslims would want to leave Muslim majority countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh since they are Muslim majority countries as the logic for why only non-Muslims are allowed. However, what this ignores is that they cleverly left Myanmar out of the list, a non-Muslim country that is the source of 90% of Muslim refugees in India, as the only country that was actually relevant to this bill. Leaving Myanmar out of a bill that gives citizenship to migrants in India is like the US excluding Texas from a bill giving a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants. If you left Texas out of citizenship bill for Mexican migrants, that bill would be completely worthless since a huge majority of migrants enter the US through the Texas border. That is basically what India has done by excluding Myanmar from the list. They cleverly left out Myanmar because it a non-Muslim country genociding Muslims and the bill would've made zero sense if they did include Myanmar on the list of eligible refugees and then still excluded Muslims since 90% of refugees fleeing from Myanmar are being genocided because they are Muslims in the first place. The uneducated and impoverished masses in rural India are conditioned by the BJP to think that Muslims are invaders the same way US politicians play identity politics on anti-Islam with rural white voters. So if the masses woke up and realized that Rohingya Muslim refugees in India are in fact fleeing religious persecution while the BJP gov't claims the exact opposite, it would completely undermine and pull the rug out from all support for a Muslim exclusion bill amongst the masses. Hence the BJP has been very vocal engaging in a large PR campaign to depict Muslims in a negative light in order to drive home the message that Muslim refugees should not be allowed. In order to cause as much confusion as possible and somehow attempt to make Muslim majority countries look like the bad guys instead of India, the BJP actually changed the purpose of the bill altogether from a law about migrants to a law about minorities. Simple reason for this is that a bill including Myanmar would have had to address the migrant and refugee issue while excluding Myanmar and only including Muslim countries (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh) gets around this inconvenient issue of allowing Muslim migrants and can instead be used to distort the aim into one about minorities to spin discrimination as a positive. In effect this law is completely useless since it doesn't address the migrant issue in any way whatsoever by excluding Myanmar, however they never intended to solve it in the first place, since the real goal was always to exclude Muslims in which aspect they have succeeded.

90% of Muslims refugees that are fleeing into India are doing it because of genocide, not because of economic reasons. Muslims don't have any problems living in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh since they are Muslim majority countries. One could argue that minorities in Pakistan or Afghanistan like Hindus or Sikhs would want to migrate to India, but they aren't fleeing Muslim countries in the hundreds of thousands that would be necessary to gain political support for such a drastic bill. So that rules out religious persecution as a cause for these 3 countries. Similarly, very few, if any people are migrating to India because of the economy. Pakistan and Bangladesh are stable enough on their own, Afghanistan isn't but 90% of Afghans that did migrate because of the economy migrated to Pakistan, not India, so that also rules out economic migrants for these 3 countries. So religious persecution and economic reasons are both weak reasons to leave Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh to go to India. So that begs the question: where are all of India's Muslim migrants coming from if they're not coming from Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh?

That leaves Myanmar. It is unlikely that huge numbers of Rohingya fleeing Myanmar who are almost exclusively Muslim are doing it because of economic reasons. Basically, since the concept of economic refugees makes no sense in the context of mass ethnic cleansing, the only thing that could cause Muslim refugees to flee into India in massive numbers is religious persecution which is exactly the case with Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar. It is because of genocide. The BJP gov't doesn't want any Muslim refugees (or any Muslims for that matter), however the overwhelming majority of the refugees in India are from Myanmar and are almost exclusively Muslim. So the BJP decided that the only way to prevent any Muslim refugees is to prevent any refugees at all, hence why Myanmar is excluded from the list. Of course, this makes the bill completely worthless in addressing migrants in any meaningful way since it essentially makes this a law pretending to allow migrants on the surface but excludes both the nationality and faith of 90% of those migrants. So essentially that leaves somewhere between 0-10% of migrants actually eligible for citizenship. Since Myanmar is excluded and so are Muslims, that number is probably very close to 0% eligibility for migrants.

Under the pretext of a Muslim exclusion law disguised as a citizenship bill for migrants combined with the fact that 0% of migrants will actually be eligible, it might seem like this bill is both useless and discriminatory. That is because it is. This is why they added Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh as distractions to divert attention and to create a fabricated, if not misleading purpose. Since they intentionally excluded both Muslim migrants and Myanmar in a migrant bill where 90% of migrants are Muslims from Myanmar, the bill would've been completely useless for anything other than targeting Muslims (which was the purpose) since there would be no non-Muslim migrants from Myanmar left that would be eligible. By adding in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh, they can divert people's attention and make the bill seem slightly less egregious by having a purpose besides just harassing Muslims. Bearing in mind that this bill is a migrant bill in name only and doesn't actually do anything to address migrants, the new fake purpose of the bill was pitched not as an exclusion of Muslim migrants but as an inclusion of minorities. Of course any person with a brain can see right through this because they mean exactly the same thing. Since the BJP doesn't want Muslims, they only want non-Muslims which clearly aren't going to be coming from Myanmar where Muslims are the only group fleeing genocide and they already excluded Myanmar from the bill, where exactly would these non-Muslim minorities come from? The bill would have to replace Myanmar with different countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh in order to get any non-Muslim minorities since Muslims would stay in those majority Muslim countries while non-Muslims would want to migrate to India where they would feel safer. Since the BJP only wanted non-Muslims to migrate into India and for Muslims to stay out, this seemed like a perfect plan. Or at least, that's what they thought.

One interesting aspect of the bill is that at first glance, it appears to be aimed at giving citizenship to minority migrants. However, it doesn't actually target any migrants at all since it effectively excludes both Muslims and Myanmar which is the overwhelming majority of India's migrants, leaving only non-Muslims from Muslim countries as eligible. The bill as it exists right now, gives citizenship to any non-Muslim migrant in India from Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh. The goal of the bill was essentially to make Muslim majority countries appear as evil, cruel, and unsafe for minorities and make India look like a safe, tolerant, and welcoming country for persecuted minorities. The irony is not lost on anyone that by doing this, they are themselves are marginalizing and disenfranchising India's own Muslim community, making India no better than any of the other Muslim countries they accuse of doing the same thing to their minorities. The purpose of the bill is two-fold. First, it is aligned with the BJP's narrative of demonizing Islam as the enemy of India by making India look like the savior of non-Muslim minorities from Muslim countries. What this critically ignores is that very few, if any minorities are actually willing to migrate to India since many of them prefer to live where they grew up their entire life and most minorities are generally treated well in Muslim majority countries. India spends huge amounts of money to run global PR human rights campaigns about non-Muslim minorities being oppressed and slaughtered in Muslim countries, but it is in India's interest to tarnish the reputation of Muslim countries and make them look worse than they actually are, so many claims of minorities being persecuted while true, are grossly exaggerated or overstated on purpose. Minorities in Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh most likely will not use this bill to move to India as the vast majority of them have grown up their entire lives in those countries with a unique culture, not withstanding the fact that there is also the moral and ethical consideration of leaving your entire family behind and acquiring citizenship of India, a country which to some extent is disliked by the population of all three nations and has an alien culture compared to Muslim majority countries. The second purpose of the bill is to send a message that Muslims are not welcome in India, both those who live legally in India and also Muslim migrants fleeing genocide in Myanmar. The reason it is sending a message is because the entire law itself is symbolic. It was never actually designed to be used by anyone. No Muslims from Myanmar that would actually need this bill are eligible for it, no one else from Myanmar is eligible either, and minorities from Muslim majority countries that are eligible for it aren't interested. This bill wasn't designed to be used, it was purely created to send a powerful message to the country that Muslims are not welcome by excluding them and allowing only non-Muslims. If the bill actually aimed to solve the migrant problem, it would not have excluded Muslims or included minorities, it would have addressed all of them together without discriminating who is a minority or from what country. Effectively what the bill should have done is to give citizenship to migrants on the basis of factors such as who needs it most, reasons for migrating etc. What it actually does is use religion to decide which migrants should get citizenship. The very fact that it does discriminate at all should make it immediately obvious this bill is not actually about migrants but that the motivation behind it lies elsewhere, to exclude Muslims and is simply disguised to not be as obvious.

I apologize if this was difficult to understand but it is a very complicated subject.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17809
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:04 am

stl07 wrote:
ElPistolero wrote:
stl07 wrote:
You can't have equality if it's only for some. That's not equality. If you don't want more Muslims, remove your "freedom of religion" clause and stop proclaiming that everyone is equal. The west won't do that because residence (myself included) prefer equality.

Interestingly enough, this is seen the most in Muslim countries where Muslims and Christians get the most amount of rights, and Jews get the least.


The same folk who claim this is a good idea would be calling every white American and their dog “racist” if the US instituted similar rules privileging Indian Christians for US citizenship while simultaneously throwing roadblocks in the way of Indian Hindus.

Their lack of self-awareness is hilarious.

And then the same people have the audacity to call the Muslim countries like Qatar and the UAE a place with "no human rights" when they are calling for the exact same thing in Europe

Wuh? Who is calling for Qatar/UAE 'human rights' in Europe?

ElPistolero wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Jetty wrote:
Very smart decision by India. Muslims have 40+ Muslim countries to choose from. Major Muslim minorities are known to cause problems all over the world so no reason to give them citizenship in a non-Muslim country. Most countries in Asia get this while Europe is still stuck in it's 'freedom of religion' dogma. I'm all for freedom of religion as principle but history shows that this doesn't work well with Muslim minorities and they act violent if they don't get their way once it's to big of a minority. With India's policy Buddhists, Jains, Christians, Sikhs and Parsis still get the equality they deserve.

You can't have equality if it's only for some. That's not equality. If you don't want more Muslims, remove your "freedom of religion" clause and stop proclaiming that everyone is equal. The west won't do that because residence (myself included) prefer equality.

Interestingly enough, this is seen the most in Muslim countries where Muslims and Christians get the most amount of rights, and Jews get the least.


The same folk who claim this is a good idea would be calling every white American and their dog “racist” if the US instituted similar rules privileging Indian Christians for US citizenship while simultaneously throwing roadblocks in the way of Indian Hindus.

Their lack of self-awareness is hilarious.

I think the people that think this is a good idea *would* be thrilled to have citizenship restricted to christians. They certainly like the muslim ban.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
blrsea
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:47 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
golfradio wrote:
Muslims migrating from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan are economic refugees. What persecution are the muslims in islamic countries with single digit minorities fleeing? And if one counts Ahmediyas, Shias and other islamic sects as persecuted then even more shame on these islamic countries. It only goes to show how intolerant these countries are. Forget other religious minorities but they won't tolerate even minority muslim sects.


There is zero chance of anyone with Pakistani or Bangladeshi citizenship migrating to India. .


Your first statement itself is wrong and not based on facts. So all your "analysis' following that is bunkum. There are millions of bangladeshi muslims immigrants in India, mainly for economic reasons. Over the last 30 years, almost 40% of Assam's districts have become muslim majority, mainly from bangladeshi muslims. West Bengal is another state where there are large number of illegal bangladeshi muslims, as is Tripura. The left front govt in West Bengal and Tripura was well know for letting in illegal bangladeshis as they were good vote-bank, even getting them ration cards etc. For your information, the number of muslims from Myanmar is a very small fraction compared to those from Bangladesh.

Plus it is a fact that hindus & christians in Pakistan are persecuted under various govt sponsored laws like blasphemy law or ignoring forcible kidnapping & conversion of minor girls. Many of the hindu migrants from pak are mainly due to that fear. And major source of bangladeshi hindu migrants was due to the rape and genocide unleashed by pakistani army. In fact, pakistan was trying to even stop its hindus from visiting india for the fear they might stay back and bad-mouth pakistan.

And finally, the law doesn't block any muslims from these three countries to apply for citizenship. They need to undergo the same process as for everyone else from any other country. It just cuts the waiting time by half to those fleeing religious persecution from the three countries.
 
sonicruiser
Topic Author
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:18 pm

blrsea wrote:
Your first statement itself is wrong and not based on facts. So all your "analysis' following that is bunkum. There are millions of bangladeshi muslims immigrants in India, mainly for economic reasons. Over the last 30 years, almost 40% of Assam's districts have become muslim majority, mainly from bangladeshi muslims. West Bengal is another state where there are large number of illegal bangladeshi muslims, as is Tripura. The left front govt in West Bengal and Tripura was well know for letting in illegal bangladeshis as they were good vote-bank, even getting them ration cards etc. For your information, the number of muslims from Myanmar is a very small fraction compared to those from Bangladesh.


Where do you think those migrants are coming from? If you had bothered to read any reputable outlet in the past 2 years, you would know that there is a massive flood of migrants that pass through from Myanmar to Bangladesh into India for this exact reason. Bangladesh's own economic situation does not necessitate mass migration that would displace hundreds of thousands of Muslims into India, mass migration on such a large scale is coming from Myanmar and uses Bangladesh as a gateway.

blrsea wrote:
Plus it is a fact that hindus & christians in Pakistan are persecuted under various govt sponsored laws like blasphemy law or ignoring forcible kidnapping & conversion of minor girls. Many of the hindu migrants from pak are mainly due to that fear. And major source of bangladeshi hindu migrants was due to the rape and genocide unleashed by pakistani army. In fact, pakistan was trying to even stop its hindus from visiting india for the fear they might stay back and bad-mouth pakistan.


During the same timeframe that India was busy destroying the Ayodha mosque, lynching its Muslim minority, stripping Assamese Muslims of citizenship, and placing thousands of Kashmiri Muslims under an internet blackout, Pakistan while far from perfect is improving significantly by restoring 400 temples for its Hindu minority, renovating churches for its Christian minority, and just opened the Kartarpur corridor for Sikhs. Pakistan's PM has stated emphatically in several addresses to the country that religious minorities must be respected and that they should be made to feel as equal citizens while India's home minister has openly declared Muslim migrants as termites that must be exterminated. Pakistan has taken concrete action to improve the conditions of its religious minorities while India's leadership openly encourages hate crimes and the lynching of Muslims in public speeches and never prosecutes, but actually congratulates them for lynching Muslims. This doesn't even account for the fact that India has a higher rate of rape today than it has ever had at any time in history and the BJP gov't not only allows rape but is engaged in ensuring that the judicial system rules in favor of rapists and sets them free. The rape epidemic has exploded exponentially in India under the BJP gov't to historic levels. On top of the 90 rape cases registered with the police every day in India, last week two women were raped and their body burned in a high profile case in Telangana which of course you won't mention since it's an inconvenient fact that doesn't suit India's misleading narrative as a safe and welcoming country for minorities. The women across India who are raped in the thousands and then sometimes raped a second time by the same rapists are vulnerable minorities in every sense of the word. So if you want to talk about which country is better for minorities, I will take you up on that offer. If you want to distort facts, you will be called out on it. Feel free to spread as much misinformation as you like since it can be easily debunked, the facts don't favor Modi's narrative.

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/19/75229249 ... s-in-india

https://time.com/5617161/india-religiou ... imes-modi/

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/25/worl ... ating.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... a-modi-bjp

https://www.dw.com/en/india-struggles-w ... a-49950223

https://www.trtworld.com/opinion/ayodhy ... tion-31289

https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakista ... 1.61112420

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/08/ ... 31370.html

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics ... emographic

https://www.businessinsider.com/whatsap ... ut-2019-12
 
BarfBag
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:00 pm

alfa164 wrote:
BarfBag wrote:
Interestingly the bill permits Christians too - probably because they're a rounding error in terms of numbers, but offering them the gesture is good political optics. They should be encouraged to convert back to Hinduism as a corresponding gesture on their part.


No, they shouldn't. No believer in any religion should be "encouraged to convert" - back or otherwise - to any particular religion. Religion should be a personal choice, and nations that dictate or discriminate any religion are an anathema to the free world. India is taking steps backward, to their own equivalent of the Dark Age, because Modi and his cronies want to pander to a Hindu majority. The politics of fear - of "us against them" - may bring temporary political gains, but is a long-run disaster for a country still struggling to enter the 20th Century - much less the 21st.

That's the ideal view, but real life doesn't work that way. Islam and Christianity explicitly push conversion backed by billions in wealth from oil and the west. Your argument is entirely "Hey hey now, it's only ok if we do it. It's not ok if you do it".

India is the homeland of Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. A right of return for every person of those faiths who faces persecution on the basis of that faith is completely rational.

People do not serve a political construct. The political construct serves the people. The fundamental flaw of the Indian urban naxals is that they push a construct that is incompativle.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:31 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
...stripping Assamese Muslims of citizenship,
...
body burned in a high profile case in Telangana which of course you won't mention since it's an inconvenient fact that doesn't suit India's misleading narrative as a safe and welcoming country for minorities.


A couple of corrections.

While BJP's wish was to strip citizenship from Muslims, the final NRC was a surprise to BJP. Not sure what happened, draft NRC looked favorable to BJP, probably officials tricked BJP. Most of the BJP vote banks ended up in the deport list. BJP has to rush CAB to save its vote bank. Had Assam NRC list favored BJP, there wouldn't be a CAB.

BJP is not in power in the State of Telangana, it is run by a regional party. A lot of caste politics in the background, the victim was from one of the higher castes #1 in a state ruled by another higher caste #2. #1 saw an opening to use the issue and #2 didn't like the gathering momentum . Instant justice was served. Another constitutional conundrum pursued.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:19 pm

BarfBag wrote:
India is the homeland of Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. A right of return for every person of those faiths who faces persecution on the basis of that faith is completely rational.


If India wants to do that, more power to them, but then they lose any claim of being a secular state.
 
TryToFlySomeday
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:36 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
BarfBag wrote:
India is the homeland of Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. A right of return for every person of those faiths who faces persecution on the basis of that faith is completely rational.


If India wants to do that, more power to them, but then they lose any claim of being a secular state

True, cause BJP is banning naturalization for ALL Muslims through this bill. Not a secular behavior.

Even though I’m Sunni, if BJP really cared they’d allow naturalization for everyone who’s being persecuted (that means allowing Shia Muslims and the Ahmadis).

If they ban Sunnis, fine! Sunnis are living fine in Pakistan, and Sunnis in India tend to leave for the West anyways. But banning Shias and Ahmadis too? Just plain ignorant
Pakistan's aviation sector is coming back. It won't be as strong as our eastern neighbor, nowhere close, but it's going to grow over time. Stand by and watch.

Born to Pakistani parents near ORD; raised and based near ORD.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:09 pm

The CAB is just the beginning. The next screw-you in the works is the project to take NRC nationwide. The pilot implemented in Assam made 4 million Assamese non-citizens overnight as they could not prove they were citizens of India. People living in India for 3 generations overnight shunted into NRC death camps. Now they plan to take it nationwide. THAT will trigger violence on a scale we haven't seen so far.

We are already seeing signs of that happening. Just yesterday, there were protests against the Citizenship bill all over India. Assam faced the worst of it. I was a rookie journalist when insurgency in Assam finally ended. Now those fires have been relit. BJP ministers have been gheraoed, RSS/BJP offices have been torched. Unprecedented scale of violence convinced the Japanese PM to stay away and cancel his scheduled visit to India. Follow @pepper_smoker on twitter for photos of the protests across India on the issue.

The Modi Govt's response has been to try and impose a complete blackout on the news. A PMO directive to this effect has been circulated to the media warning them not to report on the incident. Foreign journalists of the CNN, BBC have been prevented from leaving their hotel rooms by CRPF(reserve paramilitary) staff. Internet blockade has been imposed in 4 states and counting.

The West has done precious little to stop the Indian fascists. The foreign travel ban on Modi was lifted in 2014 and the RSS continues to operate with impunity in the West funneling funds for their campaign of hate. The US authorities have woken up quite late and are now considering sanctions. Will Europe and Japan follow suit in censuring India with sanctions? Angela Merkel will be the key person to watch. Word in RSS circles is that Merkel has "struck a deal" with the RSS/BJP to help ride out any future sanctions.

What can the west do to get India to behave? A first step would be to freeze all the bank accounts of the RSS and its foreign affiliate the HSS which operates in the US and UK. Also important is to impose a travel ban on not just Modi and Amit Shah, the Hitler and Goebbels of the fascist Hindutva govt, but also on cabinet ministers and RSS office bearers. Also important is to freeze transfer of technology, especially military and dual-use technology.

The regime in India has now declared war on its own religious minorities. As we saw in Nazi Germany, this is just the first step. The west must make up its mind, QUICKLY, on how best to deal with a fascist state armed to the teeth with Nuclear weapons and ICBMS.
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BawliBooch
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:32 pm

They had shown their true face long before. We chose not to do anything about it!
Muslims and Christians will be wiped out of India by December 31, 2021: BJP leader Rajeshwar Singh

Journalist Peter Friedrich explains the NRC/CAB crisis.
NRC/CAB provide a legal route for BJP to begin cleansing the land of Muslims — &, ultimately, of all non-Hindus. #CABProtests

Will the West now act to prevent another holocaust? Or will it be like 1935 all over again?

On a related note, if the US suspends H1/H4 visas to Indian's and puts existing visa holders of Indian origin on watch, half the NRI cheerleaders of fascism on the internet will be singing a different tune. :D

I HOPE IT HAPPENS!
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golfradio
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:43 am

sonicruiser wrote:
blrsea wrote:
Your first statement itself is wrong and not based on facts. So all your "analysis' following that is bunkum. There are millions of bangladeshi muslims immigrants in India, mainly for economic reasons. Over the last 30 years, almost 40% of Assam's districts have become muslim majority, mainly from bangladeshi muslims. West Bengal is another state where there are large number of illegal bangladeshi muslims, as is Tripura. The left front govt in West Bengal and Tripura was well know for letting in illegal bangladeshis as they were good vote-bank, even getting them ration cards etc. For your information, the number of muslims from Myanmar is a very small fraction compared to those from Bangladesh.


Where do you think those migrants are coming from? If you had bothered to read any reputable outlet in the past 2 years, you would know that there is a massive flood of migrants that pass through from Myanmar to Bangladesh into India for this exact reason. Bangladesh's own economic situation does not necessitate mass migration that would displace hundreds of thousands of Muslims into India, mass migration on such a large scale is coming from Myanmar and uses Bangladesh as a gateway.



You need to do more research before posting. There was no massive wave of Rohingya migration into India. The Rohingya population in India is estimated to be about 40000 and most of them arrived after 2017.
On the contrary there are millions of illegal Bangladeshi migrants in India. The flow abated only after 1991 when parliamentary democracy started on a firm footing. From 1947 to 1991, Bangladesh was one of the worst basket cases in the world. Extreme poverty, military coups and frequent natural disasters was driving millions of illegals into India.
Why should these people be given preference over legitimate minorities fleeing islamic persecution in Pakistan and Bangladesh?
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blrsea
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:53 am

sonicruiser wrote:
blrsea wrote:
Your first statement itself is wrong and not based on facts. So all your "analysis' following that is bunkum. There are millions of bangladeshi muslims immigrants in India, mainly for economic reasons. Over the last 30 years, almost 40% of Assam's districts have become muslim majority, mainly from bangladeshi muslims. West Bengal is another state where there are large number of illegal bangladeshi muslims, as is Tripura. The left front govt in West Bengal and Tripura was well know for letting in illegal bangladeshis as they were good vote-bank, even getting them ration cards etc. For your information, the number of muslims from Myanmar is a very small fraction compared to those from Bangladesh.


Where do you think those migrants are coming from? If you had bothered to read any reputable outlet in the past 2 years, you would know that there is a massive flood of migrants that pass through from Myanmar to Bangladesh into India for this exact reason. Bangladesh's own economic situation does not necessitate mass migration that would displace hundreds of thousands of Muslims into India, mass migration on such a large scale is coming from Myanmar and uses Bangladesh as a gateway.


Dude, continue to live in fantasy land as a typical pakistani! No need to search for facts for you guys No wonder you guys are in the state you are in. The flood of migrants over last two years has gone down a lot for India as Bangladesh economy continues to improve and border is more manned now. Right now, Bangladesh economy is better than pakistan which is a basketcase. The immigrants from Bangladesh are from last 20-30 years, which has crossed millions of them. And if you even read the bill, you would realize that the cutoff date is Dec 31 2014, which if five years back. Those are the people who were excluded from Assam's NRC as they had no papers to prove they were originally from India. But you can continue to live in your conspiracy theories and fantasies as typical pakistani, and then wonder why no one takes you seriously.

sonicruiser wrote:
long drivel on rapes in India...

Regarding all your other data, yeah just talking about protecting minorities while allowing them to be kidnapped and converted and married is par for the course in pakistan. For pakistan, creating the right optics is more important than taking any action on the ground. The fact that minorities as percentage of population has grown in India while it has decreased dramatically in pakistan is proof enough of which country allows minorities to prosper. Yes, every Indian is appalled by the rapes in India, and there are protests and government is forced to act. We need to do more to protect our women, which I totally agree. India is still way behind many western countries in that aspect. But its much ahead of pakistan, so pakistanis should be the last people to lecture on that aspect. Even pakistani women coming to India are surprised by the number of women working in India and in public spaces driving around in two wheelers and cars. This was stated by one of the pakistani women herself directly.

TryToFlySomeday wrote:
True, cause BJP is banning naturalization for ALL Muslims through this bill. Not a secular behavior.

Even though I’m Sunni, if BJP really cared they’d allow naturalization for everyone who’s being persecuted (that means allowing Shia Muslims and the Ahmadis).

If they ban Sunnis, fine! Sunnis are living fine in Pakistan, and Sunnis in India tend to leave for the West anyways. But banning Shias and Ahmadis too? Just plain ignorant


I don't know what its about pakistanis that make them repeat lie again and again. No where does the bill ban naturalization of all muslims. It cuts waiting time for non-muslims of only three countries to 6 years from 12 years. For others, which include people from all countries including muslims from these 3 countries, its the normal process of 12 years. Shia and sunnis are at each others throats for a long time. Its an islamic internecine issue. Both of them attack each other , sometimes through proxies created by various agencies in pakistan. Who told you that only sunnis tend to leave for west? In India too, sunnis are the majority of the muslims. Ahmadis are not being forcibly converted or their daughters kidnapped & converted & married, or sold off to china (like 600 chrisitian girls sold to china recently) or being accused of blasphemy to grab properties or take revenge. Allowing them in and causing more intra-muslim issues in India is not something India wants to deal with. I wonder who is more ignorant here?
 
golfradio
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:23 am

It is ironic seeing Pakistani bleeding hearts speaking about the Rohingyas while conveniently forgetting their own genocide in East Pakistan (short, dark skinned Sunni Bengalis don't measure up to the Punjabis or are a lesser muslim just like the Punjabis are to the Arabs). But then it is expected when generations of Pakistanis are taught alternate history in schools.

Read up on the 1971 genocide. Millions killed, hundreds of thousands raped and almost 10 million Bangladeshis were driven to India.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180961490/
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:32 am

bgm wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Feels like a Win for Freedom.

I'm glad that President Trump and the Israel Govt. is friendly with PM Modi and India. :thumbsup:


Not if you’re Muslim. Bet you’d be singing a different tune if it was Christians being discriminated like this.


Actually, it's Christians around the world that are murdered daily by those claiming faith in Allah, and NOT the other way around.
You are moaning about discrimination, when the much bigger problem is Christians around the world that are discriminated against through acts of murder. First things first.
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BawliBooch
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:03 am

golfradio wrote:
It is ironic seeing Pakistani bleeding hearts speaking about the Rohingyas while conveniently forgetting their own genocide in East Pakistan (short, dark skinned Sunni Bengalis don't measure up to the Punjabis or are a lesser muslim just like the Punjabis are to the Arabs). But then it is expected when generations of Pakistanis are taught alternate history in schools.


Whataboutery is not a defense. It never was.

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glideslope900
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Re: India passes law creating religious test for migrants, bans Muslim migrants from acquiring citizenship

Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:43 am

Funny, if the Trump administration tried to pass anything like this the left would lose their minds.

But I guess since it is India, it’s acceptable.

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