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extender
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Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:43 pm

Trudeau warns of 'meaningful financial consequences' for social media giants that don't combat hate speech

A new digital charter will dictate how the country will combat hate speech, misinformation and online electoral interference in Canada, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau told a technology conference in Paris on Thursday.

Trudeau made the announcement at the VivaTech conference, an international summit that brings together startups and technology leaders.

The announcement was short on details, which Trudeau says will be revealed in various announcements over the coming weeks. But he warned there will be hefty penalties for social media companies that don't clamp down.

Link


I guess Free Speech won't be free anymore. Another crock of bovine excrement from the thin-skinned people whose feeling count more than facts.
Last edited by SQ22 on Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title was misleading
 
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:34 pm

Give me a break. Regulating corporations that publish content, which is what social media companies do, is no different than what is in place at newspapers and television stations now. “Free speech” only applies to governments punishing individuals. You own your own voice, which you are free to say what you want. Others are free to ignore you or refuse to interact with you. You do not own your own social media corporation and the airwaves/fiber network it runs on to spew toxic nonsense on someone else’s nickel.
 
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:41 pm

Hate speech shouldn't be allowed or encouraged- it's as simple as that. Good on Trudeau for taking a stance on this.
 
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:43 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
Give me a break. Regulating corporations that publish content, which is what social media companies do, is no different than what is in place at newspapers and television stations now. “Free speech” only applies to governments punishing individuals.


There is no such thing as "free speech", and plenty of restrictions apply in the US as well.

There is no good reason to consider deliberate lies protected speech. Lies can be felonies, try lying to the FBI, the IRS or your bank....

Best regards
Thomas
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:44 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
Hate speech shouldn't be allowed or encouraged- it's as simple as that. Good on Trudeau for taking a stance on this.


Define "hate speech", please.
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casinterest
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 7:49 pm

I notice there is no link in the thread start. So I will ignore the right wing slanted "free speech" that does not actually post the direct source.

https://pm.gc.ca/en/mandate-letters/min ... ate-letter

Create new regulations for social media platforms, starting with a requirement that all platforms remove illegal content, including hate speech, within 24 hours or face significant penalties. This should include other online harms such as radicalization, incitement to violence, exploitation of children, or creation or distribution of terrorist propaganda.


They have yet to create any legislation, but these are good aims. Far too much misinformation goes unchecked when there is just a like button.
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opticalilyushin
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:01 pm

TSS wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
Hate speech shouldn't be allowed or encouraged- it's as simple as that. Good on Trudeau for taking a stance on this.


Define "hate speech", please.


Anything that encourages division or discrimination of others, often based on race, gender, religion, sexuality etc.
 
opticalilyushin
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:01 pm

TSS wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
Hate speech shouldn't be allowed or encouraged- it's as simple as that. Good on Trudeau for taking a stance on this.


Define "hate speech", please.


Anything that encourages division or discrimination of others, often based on race, gender, religion, sexuality etc.
 
opticalilyushin
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:06 pm

(Duplication of previous message)
 
TSS
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:09 pm

casinterest wrote:
I notice there is no link in the thread start. So I will ignore the right wing slanted "free speech" that does not actually post the direct source.

https://pm.gc.ca/en/mandate-letters/min ... ate-letter

Create new regulations for social media platforms, starting with a requirement that all platforms remove illegal content, including hate speech, within 24 hours or face significant penalties. This should include other online harms such as radicalization, incitement to violence, exploitation of children, or creation or distribution of terrorist propaganda.


They have yet to create any legislation, but these are good aims. Far too much misinformation goes unchecked when there is just a like button.


I'm all for punishing incitement to violence, exploitation of children, or creation or distribution of terrorist propaganda because those are things that can be clearly and unambiguously defined, but the definitions of "hate speech" and "radicalization" are a bit harder to nail down because what one person might might define as "hate speech" or "radicalization" another might define as "just good, plain, common sense", which in the end makes it come down to opinions and the possible censorship thereof, and that's way too Orwellian for me.
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TSS
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:21 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
TSS wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
Hate speech shouldn't be allowed or encouraged- it's as simple as that. Good on Trudeau for taking a stance on this.


Define "hate speech", please.


Anything that encourages division or discrimination of others, often based on race, gender, religion, sexuality etc.


With that definition you've just unsheathed a very sharp double-bladed sword: That would mean that ANY reference to race, gender, religion, sexuality etc. would be forbidden, which means that ALL references to same would be forbidden, meaning that constant derisive references to white (race) male (gender) Christian (religion) heterosexuals (sexuality) over 50 (age) would no longer be tolerated and could be punishable by law. Are you sure those who complain constantly about the aforementioned group are ready to give up their favorite pastime under penalty of law?
Last edited by TSS on Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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casinterest
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:22 pm

TSS wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I notice there is no link in the thread start. So I will ignore the right wing slanted "free speech" that does not actually post the direct source.

https://pm.gc.ca/en/mandate-letters/min ... ate-letter

Create new regulations for social media platforms, starting with a requirement that all platforms remove illegal content, including hate speech, within 24 hours or face significant penalties. This should include other online harms such as radicalization, incitement to violence, exploitation of children, or creation or distribution of terrorist propaganda.


They have yet to create any legislation, but these are good aims. Far too much misinformation goes unchecked when there is just a like button.


I'm all for punishing incitement to violence, exploitation of children, or creation or distribution of terrorist propaganda because those are things that can be clearly and unambiguously defined, but the definitions of "hate speech" and "radicalization" are a bit harder to nail down because what one person might might define as "hate speech" or "radicalization" another might define as "just good, plain, common sense", which in the end makes it come down to opinions and the possible censorship thereof, and that's way too Orwellian for me.


It could be. this is why there should be a few sub buttons on social platforms with a shall we say "questionable" meter.
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:38 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
Give me a break. Regulating corporations that publish content, which is what social media companies do, is no different than what is in place at newspapers and television stations now. “Free speech” only applies to governments punishing individuals.


There is no such thing as "free speech", and plenty of restrictions apply in the US as well.

There is no good reason to consider deliberate lies protected speech. Lies can be felonies, try lying to the FBI, the IRS or your bank....

Best regards
Thomas


In Canada, hate speech is excluded from free speech laws. Freedom of expression, the press and religion are all permitted in Canada but hate speech can be subject to legal action. This is similar in most developed nations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_spee ... _in_Canada

From the article.

Meaning of "hatred"
The various laws which refer to "hatred" do not define it. The Supreme Court has explained the meaning of the term in various cases which have come before the Court. For example, in R v Keegstra, decided in 1990, Chief Justice Dickson for the majority explained the meaning of "hatred" in the context of the Criminal Code:

Hatred is predicated on destruction, and hatred against identifiable groups therefore thrives on insensitivity, bigotry and destruction of both the target group and of the values of our society. Hatred in this sense is a most extreme emotion that belies reason; an emotion that, if exercised against members of an identifiable group, implies that those individuals are to be despised, scorned, denied respect and made subject to ill-treatment on the basis of group affiliation.[4]

More recently, in 2013, Justice Rothstein, speaking for the unanimous court, explained the meaning of "hatred" in similar terms, in relation to the Saskatchewan Human Rights Code:

In my view, "detestation" and "vilification" aptly describe the harmful effect that the Code seeks to eliminate. Representations that expose a target group to detestation tend to inspire enmity and extreme ill-will against them, which goes beyond mere disdain or dislike. Representations vilifying a person or group will seek to abuse, denigrate or delegitimize them, to render them lawless, dangerous, unworthy or unacceptable in the eyes of the audience. Expression exposing vulnerable groups to detestation and vilification goes far beyond merely discrediting, humiliating or offending the victims.[5]
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:45 pm

Freedom of speech is the biggest hoax people fall for. Speech is never free. If Canada wants to finally admit that, good on them!

I'll use it right back at you, facts don't care about your feelings extender. Your post argues that you "feel" as though everyone is entitled to free speech, but in reality that was never the case. Even in the land of "freedom" of the USA, the SC had limited free speech numerous amounts of times to the point where it can no longer be considered free
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:05 pm

extender wrote:
A new digital charter will dictate how the country will combat hate speech, misinformation and online electoral interference in Canada,


I guess Free Speech won't be free anymore. Another crock of bovine excrement from the thin-skinned people whose feeling count more than facts.


Trudeau made a statement about social media and online speech. He said nothing about arresting the masses or demanding Global TV or CBC close. He is speaking about social media. Like Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, Pintrest, etc. Good. Force people to research. Force people to think.
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opticalilyushin
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 10:31 pm

TSS wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
TSS wrote:

Define "hate speech", please.


Anything that encourages division or discrimination of others, often based on race, gender, religion, sexuality etc.


With that definition you've just unsheathed a very sharp double-bladed sword: That would mean that ANY reference to race, gender, religion, sexuality etc. would be forbidden


Mmm no i haven't. Making a reference to any of these human characteristics is fine, it's all about how it is said, the context, if it is meant in an offensive, malicious or derogatory way. That is the problem.
 
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:10 pm

From this thread it's quite clear who benefits from and wants as much hate speech, misinformation, and electoral influence as possible.
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stl07
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:42 pm

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
From this thread it's quite clear who benefits from and wants as much hate speech, misinformation, and electoral influence as possible.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:

It's the same people we all expected to get triggered by laws against hate speech and misinformation.
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:55 am

casinterest wrote:
TSS wrote:
casinterest wrote:
I notice there is no link in the thread start. So I will ignore the right wing slanted "free speech" that does not actually post the direct source.

https://pm.gc.ca/en/mandate-letters/min ... ate-letter



They have yet to create any legislation, but these are good aims. Far too much misinformation goes unchecked when there is just a like button.


I'm all for punishing incitement to violence, exploitation of children, or creation or distribution of terrorist propaganda because those are things that can be clearly and unambiguously defined, but the definitions of "hate speech" and "radicalization" are a bit harder to nail down because what one person might might define as "hate speech" or "radicalization" another might define as "just good, plain, common sense", which in the end makes it come down to opinions and the possible censorship thereof, and that's way too Orwellian for me.


It could be. this is why there should be a few sub buttons on social platforms with a shall we say "questionable" meter.


Or you can be an adult and keep scrolling.
 
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:38 am

stl07 wrote:
Freedom of speech is the biggest hoax people fall for. Speech is never free. If Canada wants to finally admit that, good on them!


While the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms grants citizens freedom of expression, the first section of that document recognizes that everything has a limit.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
 
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stl07
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:02 am

Airontario wrote:
stl07 wrote:
Freedom of speech is the biggest hoax people fall for. Speech is never free. If Canada wants to finally admit that, good on them!


While the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms grants citizens freedom of expression, the first section of that document recognizes that everything has a limit.

The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

So then what Trudeau is doing shouldn't call for such an outcry.
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:35 am

extender wrote:

I guess Free Speech won't be free anymore. Another crock of bovine excrement from the thin-skinned people whose feeling count more than facts.


Freedom of speech has always had boundaries. You may not commit libel or slander. You may not (knowingly) falsely report a crime. You may not scream "Fire!" in a crowded theatre.

Germany, in the aftermath of WWII and the Third Reich, banned certain kinds of hate speech. Germany is still a free country (arguably freer than the US in many ways).

I think that to the point that "free speech" is being used to incite violence, spread actual plagues (antivaxxers), defraud people, or subvert democracy, it's reasonable to review those limits.

The bigger question, OP, how you would you feel about me asking you: how is life in Russia for you? Are they paying you well to be an internet troll? Before you report me... I'm just exercising "free speech." You should support my baseless accusations. :stirthepot:
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:49 am

SanDiegoLover wrote:
You own your own voice, which you are free to say what you want. Others are free to ignore you or refuse to interact with you.

Unless you say it on social media apparently.

So much of the hand-wringing and arguments we hear here for regulating speech on online platforms are the exact same as those used against books and free presses by feudal despots to justify their censorship back in the day. No thanks.
 
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 3:35 am

flyguy89 wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
You own your own voice, which you are free to say what you want. Others are free to ignore you or refuse to interact with you.

Unless you say it on social media apparently.

So much of the hand-wringing and arguments we hear here for regulating speech on online platforms are the exact same as those used against books and free presses by feudal despots to justify their censorship back in the day. No thanks.

And in print as well... it's just that now, the internet is a major conduit for hate speech, and the laws are just catching up.
 
steveinbc
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:09 am

Who arbitrates what is hate speech. Interestingly, shortly after reading this thread I saw a headline in th Daily Mail which cited a professor from a university in London, "Calling someone a 'nerd' or 'smarty-pants' is the last taboo and should be made a hate crime says psychotherapy lecturer"
It's a very fine line which if politicized does stifle free speech. And we surely can attribute much of our issues in world politics today to people voting for populist leadership because they feel neglected and unheard.
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:04 am

steveinbc wrote:
Who arbitrates what is hate speech. Interestingly, shortly after reading this thread I saw a headline in th Daily Mail which cited a professor from a university in London, "Calling someone a 'nerd' or 'smarty-pants' is the last taboo and should be made a hate crime says psychotherapy lecturer"
It's a very fine line which if politicized does stifle free speech. And we surely can attribute much of our issues in world politics today to people voting for populist leadership because they feel neglected and unheard.

The Canadian Criminal Code has three sections dedicated towards combating hate speech:
Section 318: Advocating genocide:

318 (1) Every person who advocates or promotes genocide is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than five years.

Marginal note:Definition of genocide

(2) In this section, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part any identifiable group, namely,

(a) killing members of the group; or

(b) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction.

Consent

(3) No proceeding for an offence under this section shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.

Marginal note:Definition of identifiable group

(4) In this section, identifiable group means any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, national or ethnic origin, age, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or mental or physical disability.


Section 319(1) and (2): Publicly inciting and promoting hatred

319 (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Marginal note:Wilful promotion of hatred

(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Marginal note:Defences

(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)

(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;

(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;

(c) if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or

(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.

Marginal note:Forfeiture

(4) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 318 or subsection (1) or (2) of this section, anything by means of or in relation to which the offence was committed, on such conviction, may, in addition to any other punishment imposed, be ordered by the presiding provincial court judge or judge to be forfeited to Her Majesty in right of the province in which that person is convicted, for disposal as the Attorney General may direct.

Marginal note:Exemption from seizure of communication facilities

(5) Subsections 199(6) and (7) apply with such modifications as the circumstances require to section 318 or subsection (1) or (2) of this section.

Marginal note:Consent

(6) No proceeding for an offence under subsection (2) shall be instituted without the consent of the Attorney General.

Marginal note:Definitions

(7) In this section,

communicating includes communicating by telephone, broadcasting or other audible or visible means; (communiquer)

identifiable group has the same meaning as in section 318; (groupe identifiable)

public place includes any place to which the public have access as of right or by invitation, express or implied; (endroit public)

statements includes words spoken or written or recorded electronically or electro-magnetically or otherwise, and gestures, signs or other visible representations. (déclarations)
 
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:24 am

What if the Hate Speech was uncertain. Would that be banned too?
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flyguy89
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:18 am

DocLightning wrote:
extender wrote:

I guess Free Speech won't be free anymore. Another crock of bovine excrement from the thin-skinned people whose feeling count more than facts.


Freedom of speech has always had boundaries. You may not commit libel or slander. You may not (knowingly) falsely report a crime. You may not scream "Fire!" in a crowded theatre.

You'll note that the few regulations that do exist around speech are very limited, narrow and precise, and thus almost all the examples you provided above are notoriously difficult to prosecute in court.

DocLightning wrote:
I think that to the point that "free speech" is being used to incite violence, spread actual plagues (antivaxxers), defraud people, or subvert democracy, it's reasonable to review those limits.

A lot of what you list here however is pretty wide and subjective with interpretations that could vary easily depending on the flavor of politics that happens to be in fashion at any one time.

I'm by no means a MAGA "Merica's the bestest" type, but if there's one thing I'll gladly thump my chest on as a point of pride as an American, it's our robust free speech and expression protections. As liberal and progressive as our friends in Europe may be, they do have some pretty illiberal free speech practices unfortunately (e.g. bans on mosque/minaret construction, burka bans, blasphemy laws being on the books well into the 21st century, arresting people for offensive Tweets, etc).
 
extender
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:19 am

Interesting reads. How about if I said "I hate broccoli," or "I hate traffic jams," that wouldn't offend anyone, would it? Nobody would run to report hate speech. Now if I said I hate the police," or "I hate the military," people wouldn't mind either, probably get a cheer from some elements here. Now, if I were to say, "I hate Cubans," or "I hate heterosexuals," or "I hate LGBTs" people will start feeling a bit of a burn. Yet nothing therein contained calls for violence and/or discrimination to Cubans, heterosexuals or LGBTs. So, that cannot be hate speech. If I dislike something, whether it is a race, an ethnicity, creed, preference, planetary origin, that would be my choice. BTW, all this is hypothetical. But if something I say, that isn't seeking violence or discrimination, but triggers your feelings that would propel you to commit violence, I submit it isn't hate speech, but feelings. As I have heard somewhere, your feelings don't trump facts.

Someone mentioned libel and slander, those are torts and civil penalties can be derived from such conduct if proven. Yes, I know, I can't yell fire in a crowded theater, but the limits on free speech are on the government, not on us. If you are asking the government to intercede on your behalf, because you have thin skin, it is time to become a hermit, or grow some pachyderm skin.

And the OP, most definitely had a link, but no surprise there.
 
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:38 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
What if the Hate Speech was uncertain. Would that be banned too?


hate speed usually required intent....

extender wrote:
Interesting reads. How about if I said "I hate broccoli," or "I hate traffic jams," that wouldn't offend anyone, would it? Nobody would run to report hate speech. Now if I said I hate the police," or "I hate the military,"


I give you "all soldiers are murderers", which is just peachy to say even in a country where not just hate speech, but offending someone is illegal. That is how you get a polite society after all.
And while society may react if you say "I hate gays", legally that is just fine.

extender wrote:
Someone mentioned libel and slander, those are torts and civil penalties can be derived from such conduct if proven. Yes, I know, I can't yell fire in a crowded theater, but the limits on free speech are on the government, not on us. If you are asking the government to intercede on your behalf, because you have thin skin, it is time to become a hermit, or grow some pachyderm skin.


If you skin is too thin to stop a knife, the government does also intercede on your behalf. There isn´t that much of a difference.

best regards
Thomas
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:15 pm

Image
 
Redd
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:41 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
TSS wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
Hate speech shouldn't be allowed or encouraged- it's as simple as that. Good on Trudeau for taking a stance on this.


Define "hate speech", please.


Anything that encourages division or discrimination of others, often based on race, gender, religion, sexuality etc.



Do you have any idea what would happen with society? To be able to think, at all, you risk being divisive and discriminatory. You've pretty much just created the Stalinist Soviet Union with one sentence.
 
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
hate speed usually required intent....

Thomas


And how do you intend to establish intent without creating an Orwellian world?
 
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:53 pm

Redd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
hate speed usually required intent....

Thomas


And how do you intend to establish intent without creating an Orwellian world?


Courts never had a problem establishing intend without creating an Orwellian world.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Redd
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:01 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Redd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
hate speed usually required intent....

Thomas


And how do you intend to establish intent without creating an Orwellian world?


Courts never had a problem establishing intend without creating an Orwellian world.

Best regards
Thomas


So we'll be putting people into court for discussing something, to establish if they're guilty of a thought crime? Very Orwellian indeed.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:34 pm

There’s an implicit creation of approved and unapproved thoughts.

I compare that to the burning of books.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:39 pm

jpetekyxmd80 wrote:
From this thread it's quite clear who benefits from and wants as much hate speech, misinformation, and electoral influence as possible.


It’s very clear who wants to burn certain unapproved thoughts.

Your tactic is not dissimilar to this who criticize privacy rights by saying “what’re you afraid of? You must be guilty, then”.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
SanDiegoLover
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:51 pm

PPVRA wrote:
There’s an implicit creation of approved and unapproved thoughts.

I compare that to the burning of books.


LOL! Do you know how ridiculous you sound? I’d love to see you argue in front of a judge that personal “thoughts” are no different or comparable to published books, and limitations on book publishing infringe the same on personal “thoughts”.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:54 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
There’s an implicit creation of approved and unapproved thoughts.

I compare that to the burning of books.


LOL! Do you know how ridiculous you sound? I’d love to see you argue in front of a judge that personal “thoughts” are no different or comparable to published books, and limitations on book publishing infringe the same on personal “thoughts”.


Books put thoughts into words.

Speech puts thoughts into words.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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seb146
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:58 pm

extender wrote:
Interesting reads. How about if I said "I hate broccoli," or "I hate traffic jams," that wouldn't offend anyone, would it? Nobody would run to report hate speech. Now if I said I hate the police," or "I hate the military," people wouldn't mind either, probably get a cheer from some elements here. Now, if I were to say, "I hate Cubans," or "I hate heterosexuals," or "I hate LGBTs" people will start feeling a bit of a burn. Yet nothing therein contained calls for violence and/or discrimination to Cubans, heterosexuals or LGBTs. So, that cannot be hate speech. If I dislike something, whether it is a race, an ethnicity, creed, preference, planetary origin, that would be my choice. BTW, all this is hypothetical. But if something I say, that isn't seeking violence or discrimination, but triggers your feelings that would propel you to commit violence, I submit it isn't hate speech, but feelings. As I have heard somewhere, your feelings don't trump facts.


Someone says "I hate Cubans" we are just supposed to uphold their opinion? Let them continue to hate Cubans without engaging and opening and dialog and asking why they hate Cubans? This is just people saying "I don't want my mind opened at all. I just want to stew in my own hatred and ignorance."

BTW, no one says they hate heterosexuals. We do say we hate being oppressed and beaten by the "traditional family values" types. I find it interesting that we have to be very VERY careful and choose our words VERY carefully but the "I hate gays" and "I hate Cubans" don't need to.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
PPVRA
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:04 pm

seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:

BTW, no one says they hate heterosexuals. We do say we hate being oppressed and beaten by the "traditional family values" types. I find it interesting that we have to be very VERY careful and choose our words VERY carefully but the "I hate gays" and "I hate Cubans" don't need to.


You’re inventing crap.

If you want to use the words “I hate heterosexuals” the go ahead and use it. It’s stupid, but should NEVER be ilegal.

Don’t confuse criticism of a term with criticism of criminalizing its use.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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seb146
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:10 pm

PPVRA wrote:
seb146 wrote:
extender wrote:

BTW, no one says they hate heterosexuals. We do say we hate being oppressed and beaten by the "traditional family values" types. I find it interesting that we have to be very VERY careful and choose our words VERY carefully but the "I hate gays" and "I hate Cubans" don't need to.


You’re inventing crap.

If you want to use the words “I hate heterosexuals” the go ahead and use it. It’s stupid, but should NEVER be ilegal.

Don’t confuse criticism of a term with criticism of criminalizing its use.


Where did I say any of that?

Again: No one but no one says "I hate heterosexual" but, more importantly, those who say they hate minorities do not want to talk about it other than "I hate so let me hate" and refuse to have a conversation.

Where did I say people should be locked up for saying "I hate (insert group name)"?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
opticalilyushin
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:26 pm

Redd wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:
TSS wrote:

Define "hate speech", please.


Anything that encourages division or discrimination of others, often based on race, gender, religion, sexuality etc.



Do you have any idea what would happen with society? To be able to think, at all, you risk being divisive and discriminatory. You've pretty much just created the Stalinist Soviet Union with one sentence.


Freedom of speech, like all human rights should be respected and encouraged, but let's look at a scenario. An adult says "gays are disgusting!", their child hears them saying it, that child now has a form of hatred impressed on their mind, they go to school, they call other kids gay as it seems funny, they then tease, mock and punch the gay kid in class...so where do we draw the line? Or do you think hate speech, irrespecitve of the severity, is fine? Freedom of speech is ok until it results in physical, social or psychological abuse on the person or society in which the negativity is aimed at.
 
StarAC17
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:35 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
What if the Hate Speech was uncertain. Would that be banned too?


It would be decided it the courts like libel.
Which is regulated speech also, you can't tarnish someones image and necessarily get off Scott Free.

There is a certain world leader who has sued repeatedly when he was made fun of or certain things about his businesses or net worth are questioned. That is well within this person's rights and the courts in nearly 100% of the instances have ruled against him or thrown the case out.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:51 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
casinterest wrote:
TSS wrote:

I'm all for punishing incitement to violence, exploitation of children, or creation or distribution of terrorist propaganda because those are things that can be clearly and unambiguously defined, but the definitions of "hate speech" and "radicalization" are a bit harder to nail down because what one person might might define as "hate speech" or "radicalization" another might define as "just good, plain, common sense", which in the end makes it come down to opinions and the possible censorship thereof, and that's way too Orwellian for me.


It could be. this is why there should be a few sub buttons on social platforms with a shall we say "questionable" meter.


Or you can be an adult and keep scrolling.

The problem is that as evidenced by multiple social media platforms, there are far too few adults that can reason on their own. The success of Fox News nightly opinion shows is a highlight that some folks think it is better that others think for them.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 10:54 pm

casinterest wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
casinterest wrote:

It could be. this is why there should be a few sub buttons on social platforms with a shall we say "questionable" meter.


Or you can be an adult and keep scrolling.

The problem is that as evidenced by multiple social media platforms, there are far too few adults that can reason on their own. The success of Fox News nightly opinion shows is a highlight that some folks think it is better that others think for them.


So in other words you think you know what is best for everyone else. Their views be damned.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:01 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
casinterest wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Or you can be an adult and keep scrolling.

The problem is that as evidenced by multiple social media platforms, there are far too few adults that can reason on their own. The success of Fox News nightly opinion shows is a highlight that some folks think it is better that others think for them.


So in other words you think you know what is best for everyone else. Their views be damned.


Please back up and indicate where I said that? I just pointed out that we have far too many people that just take what they are fed without validating it. If anything, I want people to be more aware of what they think, and what is real. Folks that go to so called Cable News sites at night( MSNBC,CNN,FOX) are not doing anyone any service. They are just watching partisan hacks lie about the days news.
We need verification from other folks about the validity of a site. Think of it like movie ratings. You might like a 1 star movie, but at least you will know most others think it is junk.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:37 am

Redd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Redd wrote:

And how do you intend to establish intent without creating an Orwellian world?


Courts never had a problem establishing intend without creating an Orwellian world.

Best regards
Thomas


So we'll be putting people into court for discussing something, to establish if they're guilty of a thought crime? Very Orwellian indeed.


Yeah, like for any other crime that requires a guilty mind. Not Orwellian at all and what happens in courts every day.
So you think murderers can't be prosecuted outside if Orwellian regimes as intend needs to be established?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Redd
Posts: 1267
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Free Speech

Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:29 am

opticalilyushin wrote:
Redd wrote:
opticalilyushin wrote:

Anything that encourages division or discrimination of others, often based on race, gender, religion, sexuality etc.



Do you have any idea what would happen with society? To be able to think, at all, you risk being divisive and discriminatory. You've pretty much just created the Stalinist Soviet Union with one sentence.


Freedom of speech, like all human rights should be respected and encouraged, but let's look at a scenario. An adult says "gays are disgusting!", their child hears them saying it, that child now has a form of hatred impressed on their mind, they go to school, they call other kids gay as it seems funny, they then tease, mock and punch the gay kid in class...so where do we draw the line? Or do you think hate speech, irrespecitve of the severity, is fine? Freedom of speech is ok until it results in physical, social or psychological abuse on the person or society in which the negativity is aimed at.


You can't shield society from bullying, the best we can do is teach our kinds respect for other people.

Freedom of speech is the freedom to think which is the freedom to offend. You cannot think without offending someone and we can't limit that freedoms without creating an Orwellian society legally punishing people for thought crimes and speech crimes.

If someone doesn't like Polish people (which I experience a lot while travelling, even thought I'm Canadian but live and work in Poland) I try to change their mind by them having the experience of meeting me. Not by putting them in jail and forcing something on them.
 
Redd
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Re: Trudeau Wants To Penalize Certain Hate Speech

Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:02 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Redd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Courts never had a problem establishing intend without creating an Orwellian world.

Best regards
Thomas


So we'll be putting people into court for discussing something, to establish if they're guilty of a thought crime? Very Orwellian indeed.


Yeah, like for any other crime that requires a guilty mind. Not Orwellian at all and what happens in courts every day.
So you think murderers can't be prosecuted outside if Orwellian regimes as intend needs to be established?

Best regards
Thomas


so you're saying that murder and a controversial opinion are equal?

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