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ArchGuy1
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Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:36 pm

The minimum age to purchase tobacco products in the United States under federal law has been raised from 18 to 21 as part of a broader spending bill. Raising the minimum age came after a bipartisan effort by a group of Senators and some states, cities, and towns across the country have already raised the age to 21 over the past few years. In addition it tobacco products including cigarettes, ecigarettes and gaping products are also included in the new law. Raising the minimum age is a huge step toward reducing the use of tobacco and number of smokers, especially those at a young age. This will lead to healthier lives and lower cancer rates in the future.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/health/t ... index.html
 
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DL717
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:38 pm

Long overdue. Now raise the voting age too. 26 if your still living off mom and dad cause Obama Care set the age standard for independence, otherwise 21.

Not so sure about the cancer risk shift. We eat so much crap these days it’s a wonder we aren’t all dead at 50. Father in law lived to 92 after smoking since the age of 16 and died from a broken hip.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:47 pm

DL717 wrote:
Father in law lived to 92 after smoking since the age of 16 and died from a broken hip.

Definition of an anecdote, surely you can see the flaw in this reasoning?
 
ParkFSI
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:22 am

I can’t argue with the dangers of any kind of smoke going into your lungs. But young people people can vote, go to war, get a commercial pilots license (not a ATP) and kill us on the roadways.
I have never agreed on the government on this.
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fr8mech
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:46 am

Not at all a fan of this.

You're either an adult or you're not an adult.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
N757ST
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:47 am

Yeah, can’t say I agree. I’ve smoked maybe 3 cigarettes in my entire life, but if you can die as a soldier in service to this nation, you should damn well be able to have a drink or a smoke. Just my opinion.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:57 am

I appreciate the sentiment, but banning stuff usually doesn't work. Especially since kids normally take up smoking as it's the 'cool' thing to do. Banning it makes it even cooler and desirable.

I'd like to see what study shows that this will have a positive impact on reducing smoking among kids, unless, of course, the Government has taken a rash and baseless decision based on whatever voter sentiment is the flavor of the day... but they would never do that, would they?
:sarcastic:
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fr8mech
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:33 am

Francoflier wrote:
the Government has taken a rash and baseless decision based on whatever voter sentiment is the flavor of the day...


The Seventeenth Amendment strikes again.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
CaptHadley
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:46 am

Fantastic move, well needed! And on that note, please move the age to be able to enlist to 21. I mean c'mon, if the government feels you need to be 21 to smoke then they should also feel you need to be 21 to kill and torture people in the middle east, correct?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:54 am

Never understood this about America, driving at 16: ok, have a drink at 18: oh no, a big nono, enlist and kill at 17, no problem, smoke weet, lock up for 50 years.

Smoking is bad for you, sure, but so are a lot of other things. Take effective measures against it. Don't think this will help one bit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:10 am

The right way is to tax these products to oblivion.
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scbriml
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:50 pm

DL717 wrote:
Long overdue. Now raise the voting age too.


Isn't this the antithesis of "freedom"? :sarcastic:

CaptHadley wrote:
Fantastic move, well needed! And on that note, please move the age to be able to enlist to 21. I mean c'mon, if the government feels you need to be 21 to smoke then they should also feel you need to be 21 to kill and torture people in the middle east, correct?


:checkmark:

Dutchy wrote:
Never understood this about America, driving at 16: ok, have a drink at 18: oh no, a big nono, enlist and kill at 17, no problem, smoke weet, lock up for 50 years.


:checkmark:

Aesma wrote:
The right way is to tax these products to oblivion.


Stop being sensible!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
N757ST
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:43 pm

Aesma wrote:
The right way is to tax these products to oblivion.


Oh that’s already done. A single pack of cigarettes in my state of Connecticut is $10.
 
ltbewr
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:47 pm

This is another of those simplistic and cheap answers by politicians to a problem. I can understand the desire and pressure to 'do something' as several young persons (under 21) got very sick or died mainly from illegally imported and abused vaping devices and contaminated vaping fluids and was becoming very popular down to teens under 16. Many of the vaping fluids contained flavorings that also attracted young persons to use them and they became 'cool' things to do.

As noted in the OP, some states have passed laws or in the process of them to raise the age to 21 to purchase vaping and tobacco products, some banning flavored products, tightening up on enforcement of minimum age purchase laws and limiting the number of sellers. Sadly, most of our politicians don't have the guts and afraid to go after big tobacco or the big vaping companies like Jool as affects their campaign funding bribes or fear backlash from adult users. Still more can be done as many countries and some USA states have done to seriously discourage access and marketing of tobacco and vaping products. Many have draconian taxes on nicotine containing products (in NY City, a pack of major brand cigarettes is over $13, while in NJ it is about $9.40/pack). No point of sale marketing, Black and white brand naming, much of the pack with warnings or ugly pictures of diseased body parts from smoking. All tobacco/vape products behind closed cabinets. Limits on numbers of sellers. ID requirements to purchase even if gray haired 65 year old like me.

The states got billions in monies from a settlement with tobacco companies years ago but instead of using it for anti-smoking programs as was intended, they used them to fill in holes in budgets, some using the foreseen distributions over the years to back bond borrowings. Use some of the Federal taxes and raise them for more anti-use and enforcement, set a minimum tax by the states so all about the same higher prices, high taxes on vape devices and fluids. Some retailers must also end the sale of tobacco/vape products. Discount store Target stopped selling tobacco products over 10 years ago, CVS, a drugstore chain over 3 years ago, a local supermarket pulled from sale vaping products and fluids a few months ago over the growing issues from them. Perhaps do, as in some states with alcohol products, to limit the numbers of licensed retailers, so they wouldn't be available in every convenience store.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:19 pm

fr8mech wrote:
Not at all a fan of this.

You're either an adult or you're not an adult.

Hawaii is considering a minimum age of 100 to buy cigarettes.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:33 pm

scbriml wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Long overdue. Now raise the voting age too.


Isn't this the antithesis of "freedom"? :sarcastic:


Also not democratic.... how about a compromise.... you only get to vote between 18 and 70, because your fluid intelligence, that bit that allows you to make good decisions, at 70 is that of an 18 year old, and dropping afterwords. If a 17 year is not able to vote, the exact same is true for a 71 year old after all.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:02 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Long overdue. Now raise the voting age too.


Isn't this the antithesis of "freedom"? :sarcastic:


Also not democratic.... how about a compromise.... you only get to vote between 18 and 70, because your fluid intelligence, that bit that allows you to make good decisions, at 70 is that of an 18 year old, and dropping afterwords. If a 17 year is not able to vote, the exact same is true for a 71 year old after all.

Best regards
Thomas


Because 71 year olds would have no say on policies that affect them. 71 years often are still in employment and pay income taxes.

17 year olds generally do not pay income taxes and their brains are still evolving.

We’ve seen a young Swedish girl in the news who many see as being easily manipulated. We have young girls brainwashed into joining ISIS. It shows that many under 18 year olds are not capable of making independent and reasoned decisions.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:44 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Isn't this the antithesis of "freedom"? :sarcastic:


Also not democratic.... how about a compromise.... you only get to vote between 18 and 70, because your fluid intelligence, that bit that allows you to make good decisions, at 70 is that of an 18 year old, and dropping afterwords. If a 17 year is not able to vote, the exact same is true for a 71 year old after all.

Best regards
Thomas


Because 71 year olds would have no say on policies that affect them. 71 years often are still in employment and pay income taxes.

17 year olds generally do not pay income taxes and their brains are still evolving.


Unfortunately we live in a world where the 17 year old will pay all his life for the decisions parties made that 71 year old put in charge, while the 71 year old pays nothing of that or close to nothing. Just look at the USA, where old people just stole 10+ Trillion from younger people by giving themselves a tax cut those with no voice will have to pay off.

We’ve seen a young Swedish girl in the news who many see as being easily manipulated. We have young girls brainwashed into joining ISIS. It shows that many under 18 year olds are not capable of making independent and reasoned decisions.


Yes, it does show that. Since decision making ability can be measured, and the average 71 year old doesn't perform any better than a 17 year old, the same is true for the 71 year old. They shouldn't be allowed to vote, unless the 17 year old also gets to vote.

Or make the relative value of the vote proportional to expected remaining life time. A 20 year old vote counts 60x, a 70 year old x11~12ish.

I also disagree that my 80+ year old parents get to decide what country my 10 year old nephew will life in long after they are dead, just because they still pay taxes and my nephew hadn't begun.

Any argument to exclude young people is equally valid for old people.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 4:50 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Also not democratic.... how about a compromise.... you only get to vote between 18 and 70, because your fluid intelligence, that bit that allows you to make good decisions, at 70 is that of an 18 year old, and dropping afterwords. If a 17 year is not able to vote, the exact same is true for a 71 year old after all.

Best regards
Thomas


Because 71 year olds would have no say on policies that affect them. 71 years often are still in employment and pay income taxes.

17 year olds generally do not pay income taxes and their brains are still evolving.


Unfortunately we live in a world where the 17 year old will pay all his life for the decisions parties made that 71 year old put in charge, while the 71 year old pays nothing of that or close to nothing. Just look at the USA, where old people just stole 10+ Trillion from younger people by giving themselves a tax cut those with no voice will have to pay off.

We’ve seen a young Swedish girl in the news who many see as being easily manipulated. We have young girls brainwashed into joining ISIS. It shows that many under 18 year olds are not capable of making independent and reasoned decisions.


Yes, it does show that. Since decision making ability can be measured, and the average 71 year old doesn't perform any better than a 17 year old, the same is true for the 71 year old. They shouldn't be allowed to vote, unless the 17 year old also gets to vote.

Or make the relative value of the vote proportional to expected remaining life time. A 20 year old vote counts 60x, a 70 year old x11~12ish.

I also disagree that my 80+ year old parents get to decide what country my 10 year old nephew will life in long after they are dead, just because they still pay taxes and my nephew hadn't begun.

Any argument to exclude young people is equally valid for old people.

Best regards
Thomas


Legislation can change. What might impact a 17 year old, can change at the next election.

71 year olds have earned their right their vote.

With your logic, why stop at 17? Should toddlers be given the vote?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 5:08 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Because 71 year olds would have no say on policies that affect them. 71 years often are still in employment and pay income taxes.

17 year olds generally do not pay income taxes and their brains are still evolving.


Unfortunately we live in a world where the 17 year old will pay all his life for the decisions parties made that 71 year old put in charge, while the 71 year old pays nothing of that or close to nothing. Just look at the USA, where old people just stole 10+ Trillion from younger people by giving themselves a tax cut those with no voice will have to pay off.

We’ve seen a young Swedish girl in the news who many see as being easily manipulated. We have young girls brainwashed into joining ISIS. It shows that many under 18 year olds are not capable of making independent and reasoned decisions.


Yes, it does show that. Since decision making ability can be measured, and the average 71 year old doesn't perform any better than a 17 year old, the same is true for the 71 year old. They shouldn't be allowed to vote, unless the 17 year old also gets to vote.

Or make the relative value of the vote proportional to expected remaining life time. A 20 year old vote counts 60x, a 70 year old x11~12ish.

I also disagree that my 80+ year old parents get to decide what country my 10 year old nephew will life in long after they are dead, just because they still pay taxes and my nephew hadn't begun.

Any argument to exclude young people is equally valid for old people.

Best regards
Thomas


Legislation can change. What might impact a 17 year old, can change at the next election.


Policies can change, debt won't go away because a policy changed.
Well, I guess we could fancy to set the inheritance tax at a level that takes the proportion of your wealth equivalent to the proportion of debt your lot, using the term quite literally, is responsible for, but in a way that is also kids paying for their parents fiscally irresponsibility.

71 year olds have earned their right their vote.


You don't earn your right to vote, you have it. Young people are only exuded from that, which is fine, as long as it is done consistently and is applied to old age in the same fashion.

One could also argue that the past crop of voters has shown enough difficulties making good long term decisions that my generation and older should be placed under disability, at least with voting. Given the situation of many nation states with regards to debt and a myriad of other problems I would argue that old people like you and me (from your screen name I assume you are just a few years younger than i) have rather lost our right to vote than having earned it.

With your logic, why stop at 17? Should toddlers be given the vote?


The average person doesn't decline to the point where their cognitive abilities are those of a toddler before they die, so that would be about as arbitrary as letting people vote regardless of their cognitive abilities when they get old, while excluding younger people over perceived lack thereof.

I would fancy giving parents extra votes until the kids reach voting age, whatever that is. Wherever voting age is set should however be mirror imaged for old age. 18/70 makes a good combination as it comes with the same average fluid intelligence level, and 18 currently is the voting age in most places. Just like the average 17 year old, the average 71 year old overestimates his ability to make good decisions.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:29 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Unfortunately we live in a world where the 17 year old will pay all his life for the decisions parties made that 71 year old put in charge, while the 71 year old pays nothing of that or close to nothing. Just look at the USA, where old people just stole 10+ Trillion from younger people by giving themselves a tax cut those with no voice will have to pay off.



Yes, it does show that. Since decision making ability can be measured, and the average 71 year old doesn't perform any better than a 17 year old, the same is true for the 71 year old. They shouldn't be allowed to vote, unless the 17 year old also gets to vote.

Or make the relative value of the vote proportional to expected remaining life time. A 20 year old vote counts 60x, a 70 year old x11~12ish.

I also disagree that my 80+ year old parents get to decide what country my 10 year old nephew will life in long after they are dead, just because they still pay taxes and my nephew hadn't begun.

Any argument to exclude young people is equally valid for old people.

Best regards
Thomas


Legislation can change. What might impact a 17 year old, can change at the next election.


Policies can change, debt won't go away because a policy changed.
Well, I guess we could fancy to set the inheritance tax at a level that takes the proportion of your wealth equivalent to the proportion of debt your lot, using the term quite literally, is responsible for, but in a way that is also kids paying for their parents fiscally irresponsibility.

71 year olds have earned their right their vote.

One could also argue that the past crop of voters has shown enough difficulties making good long term decisions that my generation and older should be placed under disability, at least with voting. Given the situation of many nation states with regards to debt and a myriad of other problems I would argue that old people like you and me (from your screen name I assume you are just a few years younger than i) have rather lost our right to vote than having earned it.



So this is what it stems to. You don’t like how votes have gone, so lets get rid of voters who are more likely to think differently to me.

Wow.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 7:36 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Legislation can change. What might impact a 17 year old, can change at the next election.


Policies can change, debt won't go away because a policy changed.
Well, I guess we could fancy to set the inheritance tax at a level that takes the proportion of your wealth equivalent to the proportion of debt your lot, using the term quite literally, is responsible for, but in a way that is also kids paying for their parents fiscally irresponsibility.

71 year olds have earned their right their vote.

One could also argue that the past crop of voters has shown enough difficulties making good long term decisions that my generation and older should be placed under disability, at least with voting. Given the situation of many nation states with regards to debt and a myriad of other problems I would argue that old people like you and me (from your screen name I assume you are just a few years younger than i) have rather lost our right to vote than having earned it.



So this is what it stems to. You don’t like how votes have gone, so lets get rid of voters who are more likely to think differently to me.

Wow.


You introduced the concept of earned. I am glad you understand how stupid it is when you turn it around. And don't pretend for a moment younger people aren't excluded because of the way they would vote. For real, not just as a hypothetical.

The seemingly extremely inconvenient fact of a 71 year old not being able to make better decisions than a 17 year old gets of course ignored.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:25 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Policies can change, debt won't go away because a policy changed.
Well, I guess we could fancy to set the inheritance tax at a level that takes the proportion of your wealth equivalent to the proportion of debt your lot, using the term quite literally, is responsible for, but in a way that is also kids paying for their parents fiscally irresponsibility.


One could also argue that the past crop of voters has shown enough difficulties making good long term decisions that my generation and older should be placed under disability, at least with voting. Given the situation of many nation states with regards to debt and a myriad of other problems I would argue that old people like you and me (from your screen name I assume you are just a few years younger than i) have rather lost our right to vote than having earned it.



So this is what it stems to. You don’t like how votes have gone, so lets get rid of voters who are more likely to think differently to me.

Wow.


You introduced the concept of earned. I am glad you understand how stupid it is when you turn it around. And don't pretend for a moment younger people aren't excluded because of the way they would vote. For real, not just as a hypothetical.

The seemingly extremely inconvenient fact of a 71 year old not being able to make better decisions than a 17 year old gets of course ignored.

Best regards
Thomas


Under 18’s do not have the life experiences to make rational decisions.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:28 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Under 18’s do not have the life experiences to make rational decisions.


Given your blind support for Brexit, neither do you. You're setting an untenable standard.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
VSMUT
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:49 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

So this is what it stems to. You don’t like how votes have gone, so lets get rid of voters who are more likely to think differently to me.

Wow.


You introduced the concept of earned. I am glad you understand how stupid it is when you turn it around. And don't pretend for a moment younger people aren't excluded because of the way they would vote. For real, not just as a hypothetical.

The seemingly extremely inconvenient fact of a 71 year old not being able to make better decisions than a 17 year old gets of course ignored.

Best regards
Thomas


Under 18’s do not have the life experiences to make rational decisions.


There is more to voting than life experience. It is just as much about visions and goals. Man wouldn't have landed on the moon or built Concorde if we only looked back on experiences of the past.

Further, as any worthwhile flying school will teach you, experience comes at a cost. Discipline and knowledge gained at school drops off over time. The optimal system takes the best of both sides.

But who am I kidding. Your entire motivation in this discussion is Brexit, which you know would never have happened if young people could have voted for their own future.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:02 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

So this is what it stems to. You don’t like how votes have gone, so lets get rid of voters who are more likely to think differently to me.

Wow.


You introduced the concept of earned. I am glad you understand how stupid it is when you turn it around. And don't pretend for a moment younger people aren't excluded because of the way they would vote. For real, not just as a hypothetical.

The seemingly extremely inconvenient fact of a 71 year old not being able to make better decisions than a 17 year old gets of course ignored.

Best regards
Thomas


Under 18’s do not have the life experiences to make rational decisions.


Over 70 years old have no relevant understanding of today and lack the knowledge to make rational decisions. The ability to learn, process, understand and transfer new knowledge into rational decision making declines with age, beginning with your mid 30s. Old people are literally out of touch with reality.

Works both ways apparently, only difference is my argument is scientific and quantifiable, while yours is not. And there are plenty of 17 years old with a hell lot more life experience than most 18 year olds, that can vote. Life experience is rather irrelevant anyways, obviously only relevant experiance counts. Good luck quantifying that. Grandma knowing how to milk cows by hand has no bearing on how to make good decissions, understanding privacy, security and safety concern of the internet is, and my gut feeling tells me that the average 16 year old beats the average 60 years old by miles in that regard.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
noviorbis77
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Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 9:14 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

You introduced the concept of earned. I am glad you understand how stupid it is when you turn it around. And don't pretend for a moment younger people aren't excluded because of the way they would vote. For real, not just as a hypothetical.

The seemingly extremely inconvenient fact of a 71 year old not being able to make better decisions than a 17 year old gets of course ignored.

Best regards
Thomas


Under 18’s do not have the life experiences to make rational decisions.


Over 70 years old have no relevant understanding of today and lack the knowledge to make rational decisions. The ability to learn, process, understand and transfer new knowledge into rational decision making declines with age, beginning with your mid 30s. Old people are literally out of touch with reality.

Works both ways apparently, only difference is my argument is scientific and quantifiable, while yours is not. And there are plenty of 17 years old with a hell lot more life experience than most 18 year olds, that can vote. Life experience is rather irrelevant anyways, obviously only relevant experiance counts. Good luck quantifying that. Grandma knowing how to milk cows by hand has no bearing on how to make good decissions, understanding privacy, security and safety concern of the internet is, and my gut feeling tells me that the average 16 year old beats the average 60 years old by miles in that regard.

Best regards
Thomas


Well that is your interpretation isn’t it.

There is nothing scientific about your beliefs that 16 year olds have a greater understanding of current affairs, life, economics and all manner of other things, compared to 71 year olds.

I have seen a lot of people sulking on twitter that elections have not gone their way, and they come up with absolute nonsense saying, lets limit who can vote, so we can have who we like to win elections.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:14 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:

Under 18’s do not have the life experiences to make rational decisions.


Over 70 years old have no relevant understanding of today and lack the knowledge to make rational decisions. The ability to learn, process, understand and transfer new knowledge into rational decision making declines with age, beginning with your mid 30s. Old people are literally out of touch with reality.

Works both ways apparently, only difference is my argument is scientific and quantifiable, while yours is not. And there are plenty of 17 years old with a hell lot more life experience than most 18 year olds, that can vote. Life experience is rather irrelevant anyways, obviously only relevant experiance counts. Good luck quantifying that. Grandma knowing how to milk cows by hand has no bearing on how to make good decissions, understanding privacy, security and safety concern of the internet is, and my gut feeling tells me that the average 16 year old beats the average 60 years old by miles in that regard.

Best regards
Thomas


Well that is your interpretation isn’t it.

There is nothing scientific about your beliefs that 16 year olds have a greater understanding of current affairs, life, economics and all manner of other things, compared to 71 year olds.
.


Well, thats is your Interpretation, you have zero proof, scientific or otherwise, that life experience helps making good decision in any way, shape or form, or that 50 year old life experience has any relevance at all.

It's also a straw man, as I didn't say that bit was scientific and quantifiable, only that the mental decline, or generally the ability to deduct, are.

But, to take a field of decision making where life experience does obvious count, finance, a 70 year old does not do better than an 18 year old, so your "experience" argument seems to fall flat, as apparently the higher cognitive ability outways experience rather quickly.

https://repository.upenn.edu/prc_papers/52/

Well, it seems even *your* arguments supports limiting voting to 18 to 70 once you look at the facts.

Your arguments are nothing but "but, because reasons".... maybe you got something better, something scientific....

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
VSMUT
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 10:19 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
I have seen a lot of people sulking on twitter that elections have not gone their way, and they come up with absolute nonsense saying, lets limit who can vote, so we can have who we like to win elections.


And why wouldn't they? Their future was greatly impacted with significant freedoms restricted, decided to a great extent by a bunch of people who were dead before Brexit even happened. That is a major flaw in the system.
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Wed Dec 25, 2019 11:17 pm

VSMUT wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
I have seen a lot of people sulking on twitter that elections have not gone their way, and they come up with absolute nonsense saying, lets limit who can vote, so we can have who we like to win elections.


And why wouldn't they? Their future was greatly impacted with significant freedoms restricted, decided to a great extent by a bunch of people who were dead before Brexit even happened. That is a major flaw in the system.


Maybe this would be better off discussed in the Brexit thread as we have seem to have hijacked a discussion on the draconian decision to raise the age Tobacco can be purchased in the USA.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Thu Dec 26, 2019 12:49 am

fr8mech wrote:
Not at all a fan of this.

You're either an adult or you're not an adult.


Agreed. There should be no restrictions after 18.
 
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DL717
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Thu Dec 26, 2019 1:17 am

scbriml wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Long overdue. Now raise the voting age too.


Isn't this the antithesis of "freedom"? :sarcastic:


That was the point.
Funny. It only took one pandemic for those who argue endlessly about natural selection to stop believing in natural selection.
 
Kno
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:41 am

Being underaged doesn’t stop kids from drinking and smoking - countries that normalize it and focus on educating kids instead of banning things seem to produce adults who can actually handle smoking and drinking responsibly more so than america.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:35 pm

Doesn't impact me and I'm not sure if this will make a difference. They'd have to regulate all forms of smoking materials (including vapes and e-cigarettes). But surely there will be many folks who are coughing up their lungs and giving cigarettes to their teenagers because that "guvmint can't tell them what to do".

I would argue that all smoking items should have a skyhigh tax to discourage its purchase (let states decide for themselves). There's no point in raising the smoking age if both parents smoke like there's no tomorrow. My uncle and his wife were smokers and his son ended up being a smoker as well (oddly enough, his sister didn't). I have another uncle who is also a heavy smoker and he managed to give it up before succumbing to it again. I've thought about doing a one-man intervention: he's an uncle who was estranged from the family and it was only until recently that we've become close (it also helps that he's gay and is the only family member to know about me).

There may be those who would argue that this (high taxes) disproportionately affects the poor, but in any case, it should help them: get them away from a sickening habit and save some money as well.

DL717 wrote:
Obama Care set the age standard for independence, otherwise 21.

Oh that darn Obamacare, looking after those who are still in school or can't afford insurance on their own because they haven't found a decent job yet.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:39 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Hawaii is considering a minimum age of 100 to buy cigarettes.

You need to learn to read between the lines. The fact that someone proposed a bill doesn't mean it's a serious attempt. Even in a state with an overwhelming majority for a party, there are sensible minds that realize that this too much government.

Sometimes, bills are proposed to make a statement and not because they intend for it to be actual policy.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:55 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Over 70 years old have no relevant understanding of today and lack the knowledge to make rational decisions.

Ageism at its worst. It's so easy to turn the tables... does someone who knows nothing but Instagram and xbox, most likely hasn't ever read a proper book, understand complexities of today's world?
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:59 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Over 70 years old have no relevant understanding of today and lack the knowledge to make rational decisions.

Ageism at its worst. It's so easy to turn the tables... does someone who knows nothing but Instagram and xbox, most likely hasn't ever read a proper book, understand complexities of today's world?


Agreed.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:27 pm

DL717 wrote:
Obama Care set the age standard for independence, otherwise 21.

Oh that darn Obamacare, looking after those who are still in school or can't afford insurance on their own because they haven't found a decent job yet.[/quote]

Eric Garner in NYC was killed by the state for trying to sell untaxed cigarettes. My parents smoked, Dad made it clear from a very early age, my brother and I would NOT smoke or the pain would real. We don’t smoke to this day.

You do know health insurance has always been an issue? I came of age during the 70s malaise era—recessions, energy crisis x 2. Senior HS summer, same Dad left a note, you’re old enough to work, find a job. Busboy, it was. You’re going to college, Dad insisted. “.You’ll need money, try to find a job”. Worked thru college, every weekend, all summers. Graduate college, “you need health coverage, find a job with insurance, now!” Get the picture.
 
FreequentFlier
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:34 pm

So the feds have no issue with handing someone a fully automatic weapon and sending them to die in a war but won’t let them smoke a cigarette? That’s some interesting logic.
 
bgm
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:27 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
DL717 wrote:
Obama Care set the age standard for independence, otherwise 21.

Oh that darn Obamacare, looking after those who are still in school or can't afford insurance on their own because they haven't found a decent job yet.


Eric Garner in NYC was killed by the state for trying to sell untaxed cigarettes. My parents smoked, Dad made it clear from a very early age, my brother and I would NOT smoke or the pain would real. We don’t smoke to this day.

You do know health insurance has always been an issue? I came of age during the 70s malaise era—recessions, energy crisis x 2. Senior HS summer, same Dad left a note, you’re old enough to work, find a job. Busboy, it was. You’re going to college, Dad insisted. “.You’ll need money, try to find a job”. Worked thru college, every weekend, all summers. Graduate college, “you need health coverage, find a job with insurance, now!” Get the picture.[/quote]

Too bad we're not in the 1970s anymore. In case you hadn't realized, things have changed.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:06 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Eric Garner in NYC was killed by the state for trying to sell untaxed cigarettes. My parents smoked, Dad made it clear from a very early age, my brother and I would NOT smoke or the pain would real. We don’t smoke to this day.

What does Eric Garner's death have to do with Obamacare or raising the smoking age to 21? His killing was a result of excessive force and not because he was selling untaxed cigarettes. I'm certain any other regular American (i.e. white) would have simply been fined without the need of a choke hold.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
You do know health insurance has always been an issue? I came of age during the 70s malaise era—recessions, energy crisis x 2. Senior HS summer, same Dad left a note, you’re old enough to work, find a job. Busboy, it was. You’re going to college, Dad insisted. “.You’ll need money, try to find a job”. Worked thru college, every weekend, all summers. Graduate college, “you need health coverage, find a job with insurance, now!” Get the picture.

That's fine and dandy. Then let's raise the minimum wage to an amount that equals the purchasing power during the 70s. But somehow, I get the feeling you're not gonna be for that, are you? Because even though the nominal wage was about $1.68 in 1970 and $3.10 by 1980, the purchasing power (measured in 2018 dollars) would have been between $10.35 in 1970 and $9.45 in 1980. Basic economics would tell you that dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow, and applied over decades, a dollar in the 1970s fetched much more than a dollar in the 2010s....but you know that already, don't you?

You talk about college costs...well, back in the 70s, the average public university tuition was about $1400-$1500 a year. Compare that with tuition today which hovers close to $20,000/year. But sure, $7.25/hr weeknights and weekends should pay for all of it, because minimum wage is exempt from payroll taxes...oh wait...no...so that $7.25 gets reduced to about $6.10 after average payroll taxes are taken out. So if someone was working a minimum wage job to try to pay a $20,000 tuition, after taking into account the taxes taken out, they'd have to work a total of 3,279 hours. Assuming a 10 hour shift every day, it means they'd have to work 327 days to be able to pay back the tuition. Please let me know of a superhuman that can work 10 hour shifts continuously (after taking into account time dedicated for school) and a company that's willing to hire someone for minimum wage but with 10 hour shifts every day.

In other words: the 70s are long gone. Accept the new reality that the 2010s have brought and the 2020s will likely carry on.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:37 pm

Why Garner’s death applies—simple, the huge tax burden on cigarettes incentivized people to avoid legal cigarettes. You and others here want to raise sin taxes to reduce smoking—well, tax evasion and government tax enforcement is the result. Every law and tax ultimately rests on a government official applying violence to get compliance.

Why is college so expensive, look at all the cash and loans being thrown at it. It’s not an accident government backed money has induced higher tuition. My college loan for one year was exactly $1500. I earned a little above minimum wage to start, about double minimum wage at college graduation. It’s not terribly hard to find jobs paying $9-$12 an hour.
 
kindlyfellow12
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:29 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Hawaii is considering a minimum age of 100 to buy cigarettes.


I have never been to Hawaii, but I can see this law being enacted for business reasons as much as health reasons. You can't have ugly cigarette butts littered all over the ground in a popular tourist destination.
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:31 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why Garner’s death applies—simple, the huge tax burden on cigarettes incentivized people to avoid legal cigarettes.


Wrong, Garner was going after the market of people who can't afford a pack of cigarettes no matter how much they're taxed...$6, $8, $10. He was going for people would would pay $1 for one cigarette.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why is college so expensive, look at all the cash and loans being thrown at it. It’s not an accident government backed money has induced higher tuition. My college loan for one year was exactly $1500. I earned a little above minimum wage to start, about double minimum wage at college graduation. It’s not terribly hard to find jobs paying $9-$12 an hour.


Another wrong. Tuition is rising because state governments are cutting funding to Universities, meaning the school has to rely more on private donors (who are not in as great of supply as Conservatives think there are) and tuition to make up the difference. Private schools do it because of tuition inflation by the state schools, estimating what the market will bear and/or using tuition to project their level of quality. Go read a book old man, you're embarrassing yourself.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
Iloveboeing
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:45 pm

This is WONDERFUL! We need to restrict and eventually complete eradicate smoking and chewing tobacco in our country. There have been way too many deaths. My grandfather chain-smoked for over 60 years and now is battling COPD. I smoked 7 cigarettes seven years ago and I have regretted doing so ever since. My father's girlfriend smoked for 25 years and now battles rheumatoid arthritis.

Smoking must STOP in this country and this world! Now we just need to eliminate marijuana and alcohol. We must be a healthier populace and I will forever be an advocate for healthier living. People dying at the age of 65 is ludicrous. We need to have our life expectancy increased to 90 years old, as South Korea is projected to become.

Now I'm not saying that eliminating tobacco will solve all of our health woes, far from it, yet it's a start. Junk food and sugary drinks are next.
 
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EstherLouise
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:11 am

Francoflier wrote:
Especially since kids normally take up smoking as it's the 'cool' thing to do. Banning it makes it even cooler and desirable.


Smoking is cool? I thought running your hand through a meat grinder was cool. I must have hung around with the wrong crowd. Smoking isn't cool. It makes you smell bad, chronically sick, and lowers your social status.
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:54 am

Iloveboeing wrote:
I smoked 7 cigarettes seven years ago and I have regretted doing so ever since.


I smoked in High School. Just twelve years later, I got a divorce and the Patriots won a Superbowl. Coincidence? I do not think so.
"Nous ne sommes pas infectés. Il n'y a pas d'infection ici..."
 
noviorbis77
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:49 pm

Iloveboeing wrote:
This is WONDERFUL! We need to restrict and eventually complete eradicate smoking and chewing tobacco in our country. There have been way too many deaths. My grandfather chain-smoked for over 60 years and now is battling COPD. I smoked 7 cigarettes seven years ago and I have regretted doing so ever since. My father's girlfriend smoked for 25 years and now battles rheumatoid arthritis.

Smoking must STOP in this country and this world! Now we just need to eliminate marijuana and alcohol. We must be a healthier populace and I will forever be an advocate for healthier living. People dying at the age of 65 is ludicrous. We need to have our life expectancy increased to 90 years old, as South Korea is projected to become.

Now I'm not saying that eliminating tobacco will solve all of our health woes, far from it, yet it's a start. Junk food and sugary drinks are next.


So you are not in favour of individual choice?
 
LabQuest
Posts: 209
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Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:52 pm

I'm a big fan of this new rule. Lets push to make it even higher.
 
Iloveboeing
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:02 am

Re: Smoking Age Raised to 21 in the United States

Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:31 pm

noviorbis77 wrote:
Iloveboeing wrote:
This is WONDERFUL! We need to restrict and eventually complete eradicate smoking and chewing tobacco in our country. There have been way too many deaths. My grandfather chain-smoked for over 60 years and now is battling COPD. I smoked 7 cigarettes seven years ago and I have regretted doing so ever since. My father's girlfriend smoked for 25 years and now battles rheumatoid arthritis.

Smoking must STOP in this country and this world! Now we just need to eliminate marijuana and alcohol. We must be a healthier populace and I will forever be an advocate for healthier living. People dying at the age of 65 is ludicrous. We need to have our life expectancy increased to 90 years old, as South Korea is projected to become.

Now I'm not saying that eliminating tobacco will solve all of our health woes, far from it, yet it's a start. Junk food and sugary drinks are next.


So you are not in favour of individual choice?


No, not when it causes health problems. I live in rural Missouri and I have met a TON of people who are "disabled" and receive disability checks, yet they chain smoke cigarettes and binge drink alcohol.

That must stop! I think that we could start by forbidding tobacco and alcohol to the disabled and welfare recipients. They spend our public money to destroy their bodies. I think this is heinous. If they can't afford to feed their families, they certainly can't afford to buy alcohol and tobacco.

I believe in free choice as long as it doesn't harm either yourself or others. As radical as organizations like Greenpeace are who advocate protecting the environment, the same must be done with healthy lifestyles.

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