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ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:02 pm

The MV Funchal is currently up for sale by Signature Living and I feel that the ship should be preserved as a hotel and museum ship rather than scrapped. The ship is significant because she is the last remaining Portugese liner in existence and served as a Brazilian presidential yacht. Possible locations for such use include Lisbon, Porto, Funchal, Rio de Janerio, and Helsingor, Denmark.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.liverp ... 454788.amp
 
FGITD
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 13, 2020 3:14 pm

Is there any ship you don’t think should be turned into a hotel/museum?

Apparently Funchal will get to celebrate her Portuguese history by being a hotel in Liverpool. Some fate...
 
ArchGuy1
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The 3 Cunard Queens

Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:19 am

As you may know, the current Cunard fleet consists of the Queen Mary 2, Queen Victoria, and Queen Elizabeth. The Queen Mary 2 is the only ocean liner to currently run a regular schedule and has a unique design, while the Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth are modified Vista class ships. The interiors of all three ships are beautiful however and echo back to the 1930's, with an Art Deco style. What are your thoughts on those ships?
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1310385&p=18432045&hilit=queen+mary+2#p18432045
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:35 am

I feel that the Sovereign of the Seas and Monarch of the Seas that are currently in the Pullmantar fleet should go to another cruise line like Celestyal as I heard that the company is looking for a third ship and I feel that they have a number of years in service left. Also, if that fails, they should be preserved as hotel and museum ships rather than scrapped as they were the largest cruise ships in the world when built, have a distinctive and sleek design, and the first cruise ships to have a multi story atrium.
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:20 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
I feel that the Sovereign of the Seas and Monarch of the Seas that are currently in the Pullmantar fleet should go to another cruise line like Celestyal as I heard that the company is looking for a third ship and I feel that they have a number of years in service left. Also, if that fails, they should be preserved as hotel and museum ships rather than scrapped as they were the largest cruise ships in the world when built, have a distinctive and sleek design, and the first cruise ships to have a multi story atrium.


MANY ships were the largest in the world... until they were not. Why should we save them all?
The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut.
 
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OA260
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:46 am

Two of the Pullmantur ships are currently in Naples being stripped out ready for potential scrapping. It doesnt look good for Pullmantur’s future either . Seems the brand will be gone.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:41 pm

OA260 wrote:
Two of the Pullmantur ships are currently in Naples being stripped out ready for potential scrapping. It doesnt look good for Pullmantur’s future either . Seems the brand will be gone.

I don't know why RCCL keeps the brand alive or why anyone would sail on it. It's nice that they still keep smaller ships, but why would anyone want to set sail aboard an old ship (no matter if it's refurbished)?

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Also, if that fails, they should be preserved as hotel and museum ships rather than scrapped as they were the largest cruise ships in the world when built, have a distinctive and sleek design, and the first cruise ships to have a multi story atrium.
Something is clearly not getting through to you. You keep asking and making threads about preserving ships as museums or hotels. Where would they be docked? Who would cover the cost to refurbish and moor the ship? Why would anyone pay to stay at a floating hotel made from a ship that's unremarkable? Why would anyone pay to visit a ship whose only major success is "largest cruise ship" for a few years?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
ltbewr
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:30 pm

Pulmantur files for reorganization in Spain: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/t ... b7Kz&ocid=

I suspect this won't be the first cruise line to seek financial protection (receivership, Bankruptcy) from creditors as the Pandemic wipes out revenues for an extended time.
 
FGITD
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:52 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Also, if that fails, they should be preserved as hotel and museum ships rather than scrapped as they were the largest cruise ships in the world when built, have a distinctive and sleek design, and the first cruise ships to have a multi story atrium.
Something is clearly not getting through to you. You keep asking and making threads about preserving ships as museums or hotels. Where would they be docked? Who would cover the cost to refurbish and moor the ship? Why would anyone pay to stay at a floating hotel made from a ship that's unremarkable? Why would anyone pay to visit a ship whose only major success is "largest cruise ship" for a few years?


The museum aspect is even more baffling. A hotel doesn't make much sense either, but at the very least the ships are designed to be hotels anyway. The reason some old ocean liners have worked as hotels is because it's a throwback to an old, bygone experience. If I'm going to pay to stay on a cruise ship, I'd much rather it be one that will actually...cruise. But what exactly would the museum cover? Cruise ships have exactly as much history as a greyhound bus or the average 737
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:08 pm

FGITD wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Also, if that fails, they should be preserved as hotel and museum ships rather than scrapped as they were the largest cruise ships in the world when built, have a distinctive and sleek design, and the first cruise ships to have a multi story atrium.
Something is clearly not getting through to you. You keep asking and making threads about preserving ships as museums or hotels. Where would they be docked? Who would cover the cost to refurbish and moor the ship? Why would anyone pay to stay at a floating hotel made from a ship that's unremarkable? Why would anyone pay to visit a ship whose only major success is "largest cruise ship" for a few years?


The museum aspect is even more baffling. A hotel doesn't make much sense either, but at the very least the ships are designed to be hotels anyway. The reason some old ocean liners have worked as hotels is because it's a throwback to an old, bygone experience. If I'm going to pay to stay on a cruise ship, I'd much rather it be one that will actually...cruise. But what exactly would the museum cover? Cruise ships have exactly as much history as a greyhound bus or the average 737

How much history does the Queen Mary, SS Rotterdam, and QE2 have to cover by comparison?
 
FGITD
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:58 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:

Something is clearly not getting through to you. You keep asking and making threads about preserving ships as museums or hotels. Where would they be docked? Who would cover the cost to refurbish and moor the ship? Why would anyone pay to stay at a floating hotel made from a ship that's unremarkable? Why would anyone pay to visit a ship whose only major success is "largest cruise ship" for a few years?


The museum aspect is even more baffling. A hotel doesn't make much sense either, but at the very least the ships are designed to be hotels anyway. The reason some old ocean liners have worked as hotels is because it's a throwback to an old, bygone experience. If I'm going to pay to stay on a cruise ship, I'd much rather it be one that will actually...cruise. But what exactly would the museum cover? Cruise ships have exactly as much history as a greyhound bus or the average 737

How much history does the Queen Mary, SS Rotterdam, and QE2 have to cover by comparison?


More relevant question is, what history does Sovereign of the Seas have?
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:35 pm

Two ships that did not end up getting preserved due to a political affair rather than a question of money were the Maxim Gorky and Kungsholm (1966). In both instances incompetent politicians blocked the proposals for use as a hotel and museum ship in Hamburg and Gothenburg respectively. The financing and costs were already taken care of and those two ships should have never been scrapped. The interiors and exterior were largely original, even though Kungsholm had one funnel removed and the other one heightened. Maxim Gorky already had ot's asbestos removed and would not have had to have much work done to prepare her for her new role. Huge waste to scrap those two ships rather than preserve them.
 
johns624
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:57 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Two ships that did not end up getting preserved due to a political affair rather than a question of money were the Maxim Gorky and Kungsholm (1966). In both instances incompetent politicians blocked the proposals for use as a hotel and museum ship in Hamburg and Gothenburg respectively. The financing and costs were already taken care of and those two ships should have never been scrapped. The interiors and exterior were largely original, even though Kungsholm had one funnel removed and the other one heightened. Maxim Gorky already had ot's asbestos removed and would not have had to have much work done to prepare her for her new role. Huge waste to scrap those two ships rather than preserve them.
One, easy question---How much money have you personally donated to either save a ship or to help maintain one that's already been preserved?
 
IH8BY
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:17 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
OA260 wrote:
Two of the Pullmantur ships are currently in Naples being stripped out ready for potential scrapping. It doesnt look good for Pullmantur’s future either . Seems the brand will be gone.

I don't know why RCCL keeps the brand alive or why anyone would sail on it. It's nice that they still keep smaller ships, but why would anyone want to set sail aboard an old ship (no matter if it's refurbished)?


I suspect it's something to do with a niche. Many of the mainstream lines with the big, new ships are geared towards US tastes and activities (accepting that Costa and MSC exist), which is fine because it's a big market. There is a demand for cruises for those who aren't into American food/culture or who simply would prefer to take a vacation where most people speak their own language and they have more of a chance to meet people with whom they have something in common. These are more important than having the latest and greatest ships. Although still English-speaking, Marella (formerly Thomson) Cruises is another example of this kind of line. Older, smaller ships, with primarily British passengers, inclusive drinks, no tipping, and very British-focused entertainment. Not my kind of thing, but people clearly want it and that's fine. There isn't the capital, nor the market, nor the necessity, for all such lines to have big new ships. Cruise was a rapidly growing sector in the UK (perception was starting to change...) so I suspect it'll be more resilient than Pullmantur, and with TUI behind it at least they have a diverse travel portfolio of which cruise forms just a small part. Also, British weather does tend to force people overseas for vacations!
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:21 pm

IH8BY wrote:
I suspect it's something to do with a niche.

But ship building isn't like Boeing and Airbus where you can only buy what's currently in production. I think these cruise lines would be a bit more appealing if they had brand new ships. They don't have to be megaships like RCCL has, but something sized like Carnival's Fantasy class or RCCL's Vision class ships. Smaller ships but brand new, a 2.0 over the ones currently sailing. An opportunity for a new layout instead of retrofitting and refurbishing.

Granted, some people may not care and that's fine. I'm just saying that, if it were me, I'd much rather sail on a newer ship than one that made its debut in the late 80s to early 90s.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:48 pm

The Costa Victoria has possibly been sold for scrap under it's new owners and this is very surprising as it is only 23 years old and has a sleek space age design. I also have heard reports that it might become an accommodation ship. If it is true that the ship is being scrapped, it is a big waste and the ship should be sold off to a second hand cruise line for at least 20 more years and then preserved as a hotel and museum ship. Definitely a waste that it may not go to another cruise line.
https://www.maritime-executive.com/arti ... -for-scrap
 
FGITD
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:31 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
The Costa Victoria has possibly been sold for scrap under it's new owners and this is very surprising as it is only 23 years old and has a sleek space age design. I also have heard reports that it might become an accommodation ship. If it is true that the ship is being scrapped, it is a big waste and the ship should be sold off to a second hand cruise line for at least 20 more years and then preserved as a hotel and museum ship. Definitely a waste that it may not go to another cruise line.
https://www.maritime-executive.com/arti ... -for-scrap


Here we go again...

Given that virtually every single cruise line, from the big Caribbean lines, right down to local harbor cruises are struggling to stay in business, who exactly is going to buy this ship, and get into the industry?

And again...what exactly is the draw of the Costa Victoria, that would make her a suitable museum/hotel? It's ok to scrap old ships.

My old refrigerator would have more appeal as a hotel and museum than that ship.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:58 pm

FGITD wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
The Costa Victoria has possibly been sold for scrap under it's new owners and this is very surprising as it is only 23 years old and has a sleek space age design. I also have heard reports that it might become an accommodation ship. If it is true that the ship is being scrapped, it is a big waste and the ship should be sold off to a second hand cruise line for at least 20 more years and then preserved as a hotel and museum ship. Definitely a waste that it may not go to another cruise line.
https://www.maritime-executive.com/arti ... -for-scrap


Here we go again...

Given that virtually every single cruise line, from the big Caribbean lines, right down to local harbor cruises are struggling to stay in business, who exactly is going to buy this ship, and get into the industry?

And again...what exactly is the draw of the Costa Victoria, that would make her a suitable museum/hotel? It's ok to scrap old ships.

My old refrigerator would have more appeal as a hotel and museum than that ship.

I think that Celestyal Cruises or the Turkish line acquiring the Saga Sapphire would be good companies to operate the Costa Victoria.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:08 pm

FGITD wrote:
Given that virtually every single cruise line, from the big Caribbean lines, right down to local harbor cruises are struggling to stay in business, who exactly is going to buy this ship, and get into the industry?

And again...what exactly is the draw of the Costa Victoria, that would make her a suitable museum/hotel?

ArchGuy1 is the living embodiment of the Russian Reversal.

You see, in normal Russia (or anywhere), you ask ArchGuy1 questions. But in Soviet Russia, ArchGuy1 asks YOU!

Have you noticed that on threads where he's quoted and people ask him stuff he never answers? Yet if you answer something, he'll keep asking you stuff or continue prodding the point without addressing it.
Last edited by einsteinboricua on Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:14 pm

johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Two ships that did not end up getting preserved due to a political affair rather than a question of money were the Maxim Gorky and Kungsholm (1966). In both instances incompetent politicians blocked the proposals for use as a hotel and museum ship in Hamburg and Gothenburg respectively. The financing and costs were already taken care of and those two ships should have never been scrapped. The interiors and exterior were largely original, even though Kungsholm had one funnel removed and the other one heightened. Maxim Gorky already had ot's asbestos removed and would not have had to have much work done to prepare her for her new role. Huge waste to scrap those two ships rather than preserve them.
One, easy question---How much money have you personally donated to either save a ship or to help maintain one that's already been preserved?

Have not donated any yet, but paid admission to visit the USS Lexington in Corpus Christi, Texas.
 
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OA260
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:22 pm

Costa Victoria was never a nice ship to be honest. The nauseating over done Italian decor did not help either.
 
FGITD
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:25 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
FGITD wrote:
Given that virtually every single cruise line, from the big Caribbean lines, right down to local harbor cruises are struggling to stay in business, who exactly is going to buy this ship, and get into the industry?

And again...what exactly is the draw of the Costa Victoria, that would make her a suitable museum/hotel?

ArchGuy1 is the living embodiment of the Russian Reversal.

You see, in normal Russia (or anywhere), you ask ArchGuy1 questions. But in Soviet Russia, ArchGuy1 asks YOU!

Have you noticed that on threads where he's quoted and people ask him stuff he never answers? Yet if you answer something, he'll keep asking you stuff.


To ArchGuy’s credit, it does make for good reading compared to the usual USA politics theme on nonav. It’s like the anti-forum. He chooses the topic, you answer the questions.

And in this case he did provide a cruise line that could in theory use a ship. But it's just not grounded in reality, Ship A is destined for Scrap. Cruise line B is small, therefore they should buy ship A.

I'll also concede, until reading these posts I'd never heard of half these ships and lines
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:40 pm

FGITD wrote:
I'll also concede, until reading these posts I'd never heard of half these ships and lines


Which is precisely why these "xxx ship should be preserved as a museum" posts need to stop.
The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:58 pm

FGITD wrote:
To ArchGuy’s credit, it does make for good reading compared to the usual USA politics theme on nonav. It’s like the anti-forum. He chooses the topic, you answer the questions

Would be nice if he actually chipped in and gave his take other than the usual reporting and just saying the same thing with every ship that has a date with the scrapyard.

Sovereign of the Seas headed for scrap? What a waste. Should be preserved.
Costa Victoria headed for scrap? Wasteful. Museum and floating hotel.

FGITD wrote:
And in this case he did provide a cruise line that could in theory use a ship. But it's just not grounded in reality, Ship A is destined for Scrap. Cruise line B is small, therefore they should buy ship A.

But even then, given the age of the ship and how the current economic conditions are, it's just not gonna happen. Liners served long careers because it was a cheaper method of transport. These modern cruiseships are like airplane widebodies: they serve up until a time when refurbishment is warranted, but there's only so many refurbishments that can happen until the cost is more than the worth of the ship.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:02 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
FGITD wrote:
To ArchGuy’s credit, it does make for good reading compared to the usual USA politics theme on nonav. It’s like the anti-forum. He chooses the topic, you answer the questions

Would be nice if he actually chipped in and gave his take other than the usual reporting and just saying the same thing with every ship that has a date with the scrapyard.

Sovereign of the Seas headed for scrap? What a waste. Should be preserved.
Costa Victoria headed for scrap? Wasteful. Museum and floating hotel.

FGITD wrote:
And in this case he did provide a cruise line that could in theory use a ship. But it's just not grounded in reality, Ship A is destined for Scrap. Cruise line B is small, therefore they should buy ship A.

But even then, given the age of the ship and how the current economic conditions are, it's just not gonna happen. Liners served long careers because it was a cheaper method of transport. These modern cruiseships are like airplane widebodies: they serve up until a time when refurbishment is warranted, but there's only so many refurbishments that can happen until the cost is more than the worth of the ship.

The Costa Victoria is actually not that old at 24 years of ago, so definitely has life left for a secondhand cruise line.
 
FGITD
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:02 pm

BlueberryWheats wrote:
FGITD wrote:
I'll also concede, until reading these posts I'd never heard of half these ships and lines


Which is precisely why these "xxx ship should be preserved as a museum" posts need to stop.



Oh I agree.


What boggles my mind is that I live near an area with several museum ships, one of which is arguably the most famous in the U.S. Navy. They've all got a pretty distinguished service history, and some degree of ties to the area beyond just being placed here as a museum.

Yet you could ask almost anyone from here what the ships are/if they've ever visited them, and the overwhelming majority will say no. And if they said yes, odds are it was years ago as a school field trip. I'm interested in them, and even I haven't visited in decades.

So WHY would anyone go visit a museum on board what amounts to a Caribbean cruising greyhound bus/hotel? What history is there to tell?!
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:54 pm

FGITD wrote:
BlueberryWheats wrote:
FGITD wrote:
I'll also concede, until reading these posts I'd never heard of half these ships and lines


Which is precisely why these "xxx ship should be preserved as a museum" posts need to stop.



Oh I agree.


What boggles my mind is that I live near an area with several museum ships, one of which is arguably the most famous in the U.S. Navy. They've all got a pretty distinguished service history, and some degree of ties to the area beyond just being placed here as a museum.

Yet you could ask almost anyone from here what the ships are/if they've ever visited them, and the overwhelming majority will say no. And if they said yes, odds are it was years ago as a school field trip. I'm interested in them, and even I haven't visited in decades.

So WHY would anyone go visit a museum on board what amounts to a Caribbean cruising greyhound bus/hotel? What history is there to tell?!

What type of history do the SS Rotterdam and Hikawa Maru have?
 
johns624
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:02 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
BlueberryWheats wrote:

Which is precisely why these "xxx ship should be preserved as a museum" posts need to stop.



Oh I agree.


What boggles my mind is that I live near an area with several museum ships, one of which is arguably the most famous in the U.S. Navy. They've all got a pretty distinguished service history, and some degree of ties to the area beyond just being placed here as a museum.

Yet you could ask almost anyone from here what the ships are/if they've ever visited them, and the overwhelming majority will say no. And if they said yes, odds are it was years ago as a school field trip. I'm interested in them, and even I haven't visited in decades.

So WHY would anyone go visit a museum on board what amounts to a Caribbean cruising greyhound bus/hotel? What history is there to tell?!
If you listened to what everyone is telling you, they don't. At least warships have "cool" guns and made history, cruise ships just have a thousand cabins that all look the same. The last ship that made any sense to save, the Queen Mary, is having trouble making it, so why would these hasbeens have any chance at all? I spent my wedding night on the QM, and the cabin wasn't very impressive.
What type of history do the SS Rotterdam and Hikawa Maru have?
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:37 am

Saga Cruises has completed the sale of the Saga Sapphire to the Turkish tour operator Anex Tour. The ship has been in the Saga fleet since 2012 and will reenter service as the Blue Sapphire for Anex Tour's new cruise operations in 2021. It is a glimmer of hope for the cruise industry amid the COVID-19 shutdown.
https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/crui ... -tour.html
 
bananaboy
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:51 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
IH8BY wrote:
I suspect it's something to do with a niche.

But ship building isn't like Boeing and Airbus where you can only buy what's currently in production. I think these cruise lines would be a bit more appealing if they had brand new ships. They don't have to be megaships like RCCL has, but something sized like Carnival's Fantasy class or RCCL's Vision class ships. Smaller ships but brand new, a 2.0 over the ones currently sailing. An opportunity for a new layout instead of retrofitting and refurbishing.

Granted, some people may not care and that's fine. I'm just saying that, if it were me, I'd much rather sail on a newer ship than one that made its debut in the late 80s to early 90s.


Why buy new when you can get an old one and make it look like new for one third of the price and in much less time? Check out the Cruise and Maritime (CMV) fleet. They've got a mix of old ships - Marco Polo is over 50 years old and Astoria even older. Fred.Olsen are another using older ships.

It depends on the market you're looking to capture. If you want "new to cruise," you may well need a newer ship with greater space to offer multiple dining choices, leisure and entertainment options. CMV and Fred.Olsen are much less interested in that market. Their target is the older, more experienced cruise passenger and, of these, there are plenty that simply want decent food, comfortable accommodation and a good value way to see many places without arriving as one of several thousand guests.

Some cruise lines go for older ships and target the first time cruiser, but they typically then have to compete largely on price. Pullmantur seemed to be in that category, as well as being one of the few (only?) lines targeted primarily at the Spanish local market. Bahamas Paradise line is a niche cruise product that does this too.

Saga has gone for new builds; Hebridean Island Cruises uses a converted car ferry.

It makes sense for some businesses.

I used to work for a cruise line that built the big ships and am a fan of that type of experience. However, I also had the opportunity to sail on Marco Polo (24000grt) a while back and all I'd say is don't knock the small ship experience until you try it! Granted, I'd not want a long cruise or lots of sea days - I did a week around the Baltic. There's something to be said for not having to walk Miles around the ship, to walking into a bar and the bartender getting your drink before you've even asked for it. It wasn't fancy or glitzy in any way. It felt so comfortable and relaxing, like an old pair of shoes or something. I missed some of the big ship amenities, but got to see some places that they wouldn't not have been able to call at. I'd do it again some day.
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
bananaboy
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:35 am

ArchGuy1 wrote:
I think that Celestyal Cruises or the Turkish line acquiring the Saga Sapphire would be good companies to operate the Costa Victoria.


No way is Costa Victoria suitable for Celestyal. It's much too big. Celestyal's largest ship is less than half this size. She wouldn't be able to offer the flexibility to get into the smaller Greek islands, part of what is unique about Celestyal. That, and the massive jump in capacity during a travel slump would mean they'd have to trash their yields to fill it. Won't happen.
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:25 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
I feel that the Sovereign of the Seas and Monarch of the Seas that are currently in the Pullmantar fleet should go to another cruise line like Celestyal as I heard that the company is looking for a third ship and I feel that they have a number of years in service left. Also, if that fails, they should be preserved as hotel and museum ships rather than scrapped as they were the largest cruise ships in the world when built, have a distinctive and sleek design, and the first cruise ships to have a multi story atrium.


https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2020/06/a ... perations/

They may be being scrapped. I do remember when Sovereign of the Seas first debuted in 1988 and wound up on the front page of the New York Times. I was around 11 and fascinated with cruise ships. It would be another 8 years until I first set foot on one (Legend of the Seas).

The Sovereign-class ships are over 30 years old and while they were remarkable for their time, they are now old and inefficient. Their design placed public decks in the middle levels of the ship, reducing the number of balcony cabins available (a design issue that was corrected in more recent ships that place the public decks on the lowest and highest levels so that there is plenty of room for balcony cabins). Balcony cabins are in strong demand. Moreover, their engines and propulsion systems are outdated.

These ships were never truly revolutionary and iconic liners like the Olympic-class, Queen Mary, United Statesor Normandie. Yes, they were the biggest at the time, but they were soon surpassed. I don't see a reason to keep them. Ships make horrible hotels (limited access, small rooms, cramped corridors) and there is nothing especially spectacular about their interior architecture (which is apparently being stripped, anyway).

We can't preserve every single ship.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
ltbewr
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:59 pm

One thing we might see with some cruise lines is limits on very large ships and/or less frequency to certain ports like Venice, Italy to limit 'overtourism' and reduce environmental risks. Perhaps consider some new ports to visit that are less visited now and with younger passengers, may want to see something different.
 
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OA260
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:38 pm

Venice will certainly change post COVID and it was changing before also. They will be reducing the size of ship that can get in and will be mostly ships with under 1000 passengers that can dock. When I sailed out of Venice last year on Celebrity I knew it would most likely be my last and I support the move.
 
bananaboy
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:01 pm

I'm all for limiting cruise ship movements along Guidecca for safety and environmental reasons, but I don't think it will help "overtourism" in Venice. Cruise ship guests account for only around 10% of total visitors, and not all of these cruise passengers will even head into Venice, particularly if their trip starts and / or ends there.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/world ... opulation/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/771 ... ice-italy/
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ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:10 am

DocLightning wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
I feel that the Sovereign of the Seas and Monarch of the Seas that are currently in the Pullmantar fleet should go to another cruise line like Celestyal as I heard that the company is looking for a third ship and I feel that they have a number of years in service left. Also, if that fails, they should be preserved as hotel and museum ships rather than scrapped as they were the largest cruise ships in the world when built, have a distinctive and sleek design, and the first cruise ships to have a multi story atrium.


https://www.cruiselawnews.com/2020/06/a ... perations/

They may be being scrapped. I do remember when Sovereign of the Seas first debuted in 1988 and wound up on the front page of the New York Times. I was around 11 and fascinated with cruise ships. It would be another 8 years until I first set foot on one (Legend of the Seas).

The Sovereign-class ships are over 30 years old and while they were remarkable for their time, they are now old and inefficient. Their design placed public decks in the middle levels of the ship, reducing the number of balcony cabins available (a design issue that was corrected in more recent ships that place the public decks on the lowest and highest levels so that there is plenty of room for balcony cabins). Balcony cabins are in strong demand. Moreover, their engines and propulsion systems are outdated.

These ships were never truly revolutionary and iconic liners like the Olympic-class, Queen Mary, United Statesor Normandie. Yes, they were the biggest at the time, but they were soon surpassed. I don't see a reason to keep them. Ships make horrible hotels (limited access, small rooms, cramped corridors) and there is nothing especially spectacular about their interior architecture (which is apparently being stripped, anyway).

We can't preserve every single ship.

Ideas for locations to dock the Sovereign class ships include Martinique, Aruba, St.Thomas, Nassau (Bahamas), Kingston (Jamaica), Miami, Jacksonville (Florida), Barbados, Savannah (Georgia), and Daytona Beach. Honfleur, France or St.Nazaire where they were build are other ideas. Could be used as a tourist attraction with restaurants, shopping, casino, museum, and a hotel.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:21 am

Here is the problem, anything like that will take money, serious money and right now there is no company that will invest the type of money needed, every large company is preserving cash and lines of credit.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:23 am

jetwet1 wrote:
Here is the problem, anything like that will take money, serious money and right now there is no company that will invest the type of money needed, every large company is preserving cash and lines of credit.

Don't bother, honestly. It's been said time and time again in every thread he's opened about preserving ships, and that was even before covid.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sun Jun 28, 2020 3:38 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Ideas for locations to dock the Sovereign class ships include Martinique, Aruba, St.Thomas, Nassau (Bahamas), Kingston (Jamaica), Miami, Jacksonville (Florida), Barbados, Savannah (Georgia), and Daytona Beach. Honfleur, France or St.Nazaire where they were build are other ideas. Could be used as a tourist attraction with restaurants, shopping, casino, museum, and a hotel.


That hasn't been profitable for any other ship including Queen Mary. Ships need to be near water, they have limited points of access by design, and have a compact design intended to make them look spacious on the interior without actually being so.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sun Jun 28, 2020 5:27 pm

The delivery for the Spirit of Adventure has been delayed and the ship will not debut in August as originally planned. This is due to social distancing measures and reduced workers capacity at the Meyer-Werfit Shipyard in Germany that was imposed by COVID-19. Just the latest in a series of delays for new cruise ships.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/cruisearab ... layed/amp/
 
johns624
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:24 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
The delivery for the Spirit of Adventure has been delayed and the ship will not debut in August as originally planned. This is due to social distancing measures and reduced workers capacity at the Meyer-Werfit Shipyard in Germany that was imposed by COVID-19. Just the latest in a series of delays for new cruise ships.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/cruisearab ... layed/amp/

What difference does it make? There aren't any cruises, anyway.
 
IH8BY
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:26 am

johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
The delivery for the Spirit of Adventure has been delayed and the ship will not debut in August as originally planned. This is due to social distancing measures and reduced workers capacity at the Meyer-Werfit Shipyard in Germany that was imposed by COVID-19. Just the latest in a series of delays for new cruise ships.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/cruisearab ... layed/amp/

What difference does it make? There aren't any cruises, anyway.


Saga are probably relieved not to have an expensive asset that they can't use arriving on their books right now! Given their target market is exclusively older/retired passengers (statistically more at risk from COVID-19) I suspect that their passengers won't be in a hurry to get back on board, and shifting their market would be difficult when the Saga brand is fundamentally associated with the retired generation (shame, the ships themselves look lovely).
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
 
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OA260
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:18 am

IH8BY wrote:
johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
The delivery for the Spirit of Adventure has been delayed and the ship will not debut in August as originally planned. This is due to social distancing measures and reduced workers capacity at the Meyer-Werfit Shipyard in Germany that was imposed by COVID-19. Just the latest in a series of delays for new cruise ships.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/cruisearab ... layed/amp/

What difference does it make? There aren't any cruises, anyway.


Saga are probably relieved not to have an expensive asset that they can't use arriving on their books right now! Given their target market is exclusively older/retired passengers (statistically more at risk from COVID-19) I suspect that their passengers won't be in a hurry to get back on board, and shifting their market would be difficult when the Saga brand is fundamentally associated with the retired generation (shame, the ships themselves look lovely).


Exactly their target market are the most cautious of bookers judging by recent polls. Saga cruises are a top notch product though Id do them myself ( if I was allowed ) . Maybe take my Mum in future they would be classed in the upper end of the market.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:49 pm

DocLightning wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Ideas for locations to dock the Sovereign class ships include Martinique, Aruba, St.Thomas, Nassau (Bahamas), Kingston (Jamaica), Miami, Jacksonville (Florida), Barbados, Savannah (Georgia), and Daytona Beach. Honfleur, France or St.Nazaire where they were build are other ideas. Could be used as a tourist attraction with restaurants, shopping, casino, museum, and a hotel.


That hasn't been profitable for any other ship including Queen Mary. Ships need to be near water, they have limited points of access by design, and have a compact design intended to make them look spacious on the interior without actually being so.

The Queen Mary is actually a money maker and a gold mine for Long Beach, but conversion work was not done properly and there has been so much mismanagement and deferred maintenance, along with money being squandered that a 2017 marine survey estimates $289 million in repairs are needed. This is a very expensive restoration that Urban Commons is having to do that could easily be what is said in the marine survey.
https://lbpost.com/news/business/queen- ... k-exchange
 
FGITD
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:57 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
Ideas for locations to dock the Sovereign class ships include Martinique, Aruba, St.Thomas, Nassau (Bahamas), Kingston (Jamaica), Miami, Jacksonville (Florida), Barbados, Savannah (Georgia), and Daytona Beach. Honfleur, France or St.Nazaire where they were build are other ideas. Could be used as a tourist attraction with restaurants, shopping, casino, museum, and a hotel.


That hasn't been profitable for any other ship including Queen Mary. Ships need to be near water, they have limited points of access by design, and have a compact design intended to make them look spacious on the interior without actually being so.

The Queen Mary is actually a money maker and a gold mine for Long Beach, but conversion work was not done properly and there has been so much mismanagement and deferred maintenance, along with money being squandered that a 2017 marine survey estimates $289 million in repairs are needed. This is a very expensive restoration that Urban Commons is having to do that could easily be what is said in the marine survey.
https://lbpost.com/news/business/queen- ... k-exchange


Given that the mayor of Long Beach has given up on trying to make a profit on the Queen Mary, I think "Gold mine" might be an overstatement. The current leaseholder also allegedly owes hundreds of thousands to the city, which is never a good sign.

The idea of spending almost $300 million to save a hotel with barely 350 rooms is outright crazy.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:00 pm

FGITD wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
DocLightning wrote:

That hasn't been profitable for any other ship including Queen Mary. Ships need to be near water, they have limited points of access by design, and have a compact design intended to make them look spacious on the interior without actually being so.

The Queen Mary is actually a money maker and a gold mine for Long Beach, but conversion work was not done properly and there has been so much mismanagement and deferred maintenance, along with money being squandered that a 2017 marine survey estimates $289 million in repairs are needed. This is a very expensive restoration that Urban Commons is having to do that could easily be what is said in the marine survey.
https://lbpost.com/news/business/queen- ... k-exchange


Given that the mayor of Long Beach has given up on trying to make a profit on the Queen Mary, I think "Gold mine" might be an overstatement. The current leaseholder also allegedly owes hundreds of thousands to the city, which is never a good sign.

The idea of spending almost $300 million to save a hotel with barely 350 rooms is outright crazy.

The Queen Mary is also a museum ship and tourist attraction and is Long Beach's version of the Empire State Building, Eiffel Tower, Hollywood Sign, Space Needle, or Statue of Liberty.
 
FGITD
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:15 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
FGITD wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
The Queen Mary is actually a money maker and a gold mine for Long Beach, but conversion work was not done properly and there has been so much mismanagement and deferred maintenance, along with money being squandered that a 2017 marine survey estimates $289 million in repairs are needed. This is a very expensive restoration that Urban Commons is having to do that could easily be what is said in the marine survey.
https://lbpost.com/news/business/queen- ... k-exchange


Given that the mayor of Long Beach has given up on trying to make a profit on the Queen Mary, I think "Gold mine" might be an overstatement. The current leaseholder also allegedly owes hundreds of thousands to the city, which is never a good sign.

The idea of spending almost $300 million to save a hotel with barely 350 rooms is outright crazy.

The Queen Mary is also a museum ship and tourist attraction and is Long Beach's version of the Empire State Building, Eiffel Tower, Hollywood Sign, Space Needle, or Statue of Liberty.


The main difference being that those attractions actually make money. Except maybe the Hollywood sign, though I'd imagine it's maintenance cost is a bit more feasible.

Simple fact is ocean liners were not built to last forever. Sure, they can dump $300 million into fixing it. But what will they do in another 20, maybe 30 years, when it needs another $100 million? Historic landmark or not, sooner or later it'll have to go
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:19 pm

FGITD wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
FGITD wrote:

Given that the mayor of Long Beach has given up on trying to make a profit on the Queen Mary, I think "Gold mine" might be an overstatement. The current leaseholder also allegedly owes hundreds of thousands to the city, which is never a good sign.

The idea of spending almost $300 million to save a hotel with barely 350 rooms is outright crazy.

The Queen Mary is also a museum ship and tourist attraction and is Long Beach's version of the Empire State Building, Eiffel Tower, Hollywood Sign, Space Needle, or Statue of Liberty.


The main difference being that those attractions actually make money. Except maybe the Hollywood sign, though I'd imagine it's maintenance cost is a bit more feasible.

Simple fact is ocean liners were not built to last forever. Sure, they can dump $300 million into fixing it. But what will they do in another 20, maybe 30 years, when it needs another $100 million? Historic landmark or not, sooner or later it'll have to go

The USS Constitution has lasted over 200 years and is doing well in Boston. Also, do warships like the USS Lexington, USS Missouri, and USS Midway actually make money?
 
johns624
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:22 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
The Queen Mary is actually a money maker and a gold mine for Long Beach, but conversion work was not done properly and there has been so much mismanagement and deferred maintenance, along with money being squandered that a 2017 marine survey estimates $289 million in repairs are needed. This is a very expensive restoration that Urban Commons is having to do that could easily be what is said in the marine survey.
https://lbpost.com/news/business/queen- ... k-exchange
You're contradicting yourself. Is it a "gold mine" or is it a lemon with very expensive deferred maintenance? Nobody goes to that area just to see the QM. It's a very small part of their overall visit to the LA area, if they see her at all.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Cruise Ship / Ocean Liner Thread - 2020

Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:24 pm

johns624 wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
The Queen Mary is actually a money maker and a gold mine for Long Beach, but conversion work was not done properly and there has been so much mismanagement and deferred maintenance, along with money being squandered that a 2017 marine survey estimates $289 million in repairs are needed. This is a very expensive restoration that Urban Commons is having to do that could easily be what is said in the marine survey.
https://lbpost.com/news/business/queen- ... k-exchange
You're contradicting yourself. Is it a "gold mine" or is it a lemon with very expensive deferred maintenance? Nobody goes to that area just to see the QM. It's a very small part of their overall visit to the LA area, if they see her at all.

Was the Queen Mary very popular in the 1970's and 1980's though?
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