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LCDFlight
Posts: 1260
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:37 pm

tu204 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
olle wrote:
Also by hitting tha Iran military and politically leadership,do you agree at Iran then have the right to murder an USA general or other high ranking official?


Yes, Iran not only kills US forces, but innocent US civilians who are in that region also. You are asking a good question, and I think the answer is that in war, it is accepted that warring generals can be targets. We are in a declared war with the Iran Rev Guard (to the extent that IRG is a terrorist organization and we consider it standard practice to eliminate terrorists at any time, globally).

So that's war. But this is a special case where the US holds that IRG is a terror organization, and I would guess there is a good trove of evidence for that. Yes, there are difficulties defining terrorism, and how we are any different. There is a spectrum of opinions about that, but most agree that a democratic civilization needs some policing against terrorism. And most agree that certain national leaders are monsters that are harming their own people (which we tolerate to a great extent) and threatening / killing others in their region (which we do not).

We have practiced restraint with the regime within Iran borders since 1979. That does not indicate we will restrain ourselves from engaging them outside their borders. This guy was engaged in military acts we have already declared terrorism. Therefore it is established US policy to kill people doing things like that without warning. We never promise to provide a due process to "terrorists" during their activity; only to kill them and stop that activity. If they surrender first, that is when they would get due process.


While I understand what your point is, switch "U.S." and "Iran" places, write "U.S armed forces" instead of "IRG" in your post and read it. This will give you an understanding of how Iran and Iranians view things.

You see the dilemma here, you will have two contradictory views. If before there was room to negotiate, I don't think there is now, at least until Iran gets revenge in whatever form that will be. After which U.S. will want it's revenge and the shitstorm snowballs.


Oh absolutely, I am not sharing your premise that the dudes ruling Iran are on an equal footing with the US politically, legally, militarily. They are a terror affiliated regime. They are using the country they conquered in 1979 as human shields. We do not plan a regime change invasion, but pretty much we will deal with the Iran regime, not as peers, but as terror sponsors.

Compared to countries without elected representative governments, we (NATO+UN Security Council etc) claim special supervisory status, dating to WWII when we won the global war against fascist dictators. At the end of the day, we claim we have a duty to set standards, designate terrorist and kill them. Part of this has a political justification that 40-60% of humans on earth understand and agree with. And part of it is just we have better drones, so we will call the shots on this planet if push comes To shove, unless and until the Chinese regime conquers and takes ownership of the earth.
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14431
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:44 pm

olle wrote:
Also by hitting tha Iran military and politically leadership,do you agree at Iran then have the right to murder an USA general or other high ranking official?


Sure as long as you can find one that supports and helps terrorists go right ahead. :sarcastic:
 
alfa164
Posts: 3982
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:19 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
olle wrote:
Also by hitting tha Iran military and politically leadership,do you agree at Iran then have the right to murder an USA general or other high ranking official?

Sure as long as you can find one that supports and helps terrorists go right ahead. :sarcastic:


From their point of view, that could be anyone involved in this fiasco. An act of State-sponsored terrorism, from Trump and his idiocy.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:10 am

Explain this to me : how can Trump kill this guy, but kiss Kim's ass ?
 
Flaps
Posts: 1732
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:14 am

BN747 wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

It’s a gamble, but your blind hatred of Trump has put on the side an Iranian terrorists, congratulations. Hal ?Brands says it better than I could.

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-01-03/trump-iran-strike-how-the-u-s-gamble-can-pay-off?srnd=opinion


Did you even read what he wrote? “is gambling extraordinary escalation will allow it to reassert control of an intensifying U.S.-Iran confrontation. It may actually work. But weathering the diplomatic and military fallout will require far greater skill and competence than Trump’s team has displayed so far.”

And you wonder why we’re concerned. Both GW Bush and Obama had opportunities to take him out but did not because they both feared it would escalate to full out warfare. Two Presidents, of two different parties both felt the same, and in doing so kept us out of a shooting war with Iran. A difficult, uneasy, situation to be sure, but it wasn’t war. Trump the casino king thinks differently.


Blind Hatred for trump, ha? That's funny because I had a blind hatred for well resourced kids who grew up to become even bigger losers than their parents imagined and voluntarily remained ignorant.

Just that now, one has made it into the presidency.

Now, were Herman Uzbeki-beki-beki-stan Cain president, I'd torpedo his ass too because just like your hero...he's an idiot as well, I'm sure I have posts here of me displaying 'Blind Hatred for Cain' too.

I just hate Super Stupid people in Super Important positions...it's watch that 'worse DMV' person become the Supervisor, but this is far worse. The country is hoisted into danger over the vapid impulses of a moron. Too bad you're not a teen any longer, you could go fight for him..and that's who you'd be fighting for, not America but trump.

But your gamble on a bonehead move, is floating us into creating another Global headache ...ALL because you hero, just had to rip apart the Iranian armed treaty deal Because Obama had made it.

I mean that is why we are here today, right?

A Chucklehead got insanely mad over a deal his predecessor did (along with a 1000 other things) and now lives are being lost.

A beginning and an end...so now, tell us this glorious ending you are anticipating...or are you too hoping the bombs will silence the Impeachment calls?


BN747


So much bluster and emotion. So little logic. The inactions of Bush and Obama merely delayed the inevitable and in the process strengthened the Iranian regime.
There is a lot that I don't like about the US being in the Middle East. There is a lot that I don't like about how and why we got there. The reality though is we're there. The clock can't be turned back. The situation is what it is. It's not going to solve itself peacefully just as it hasn't for thousands of years.
The Iranian regime has never had peaceful intentions so stop trying to put lipstick on a pig. Both countries are aggressors and invaders. The situation has gone on too long already. What will be will be
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:32 am

Aesma wrote:
Explain this to me : how can Trump kill this guy, but kiss Kim's ass ?


Has the actions of this administration ever struck the international community as rational? In the U.S. the only reason why anyone thinks this administration is at all rational is because of political bias (They'll just assume it's in our best interest because politics is a team sport in their minds and their team can never be wrong, even when their weakest player is in charge)
 
LMP737
Posts: 6266
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike by US

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:13 am

NIKV69 wrote:
. They also now have an ally in our media which is basically asking for an attack just so the President can look bad.


Don't worry, Fox News, Brietbart, Drudge, The Blaze along with numerous talking heads on talk radio will pick up the slack and cheer lead yet another war. And their listeners will work themselves into a frenzy talking about how we need to take care of business. They will do this from the comfort of their living room while other peoples children are put in harms way.
 
LMP737
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:21 am

Flaps wrote:



The inactions of Bush and Obama merely delayed the inevitable and in the process strengthened the Iranian regime.


Negative. Iran is in this position for two reasons. One, the Bush Administration invading Iraq in the first place. No invasion, Saddam Hussein still in power which means guys like Soleimani would not dare step foot in Iraq. Chances are then most of us would have never heard of the guy. Second, Trump tearing up the nuke treaty all because he has a hard on for Obama and he's gullible enough to listen to people like John Bolton. Then ratcheting up the pressure naively thinking that the regime in Iran would just lay over and play dead for him.
 
LMP737
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:23 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Reuters on Soliemani an why it was necessary to make him an example.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iraq-security-soleimani-insight-idUSKBN1Z301Z


Yes, because blowing s#!t up and killing people has worked so well for us over the past nineteen years.
 
Reddevil556
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike by US

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:31 am

LMP737 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
. They also now have an ally in our media which is basically asking for an attack just so the President can look bad.


Don't worry, Fox News, Brietbart, Drudge, The Blaze along with numerous talking heads on talk radio will pick up the slack and cheer lead yet another war. And their listeners will work themselves into a frenzy talking about how we need to take care of business. They will do this from the comfort of their living room while other peoples children are put in harms way.


Do you have to fight in it?
 
Reddevil556
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:43 am

olle wrote:
We can only pray that the Iran regime is more strategic then the USA one. But in some way they will need to do something that for the Arabic world will be counted for but without getting into hot war.

I have not soo much experience of ME but I have of South America. In South America with coups and CIA influence. CIA murders has been standard the last 60 years. Castro might be in many peoples eyes (mine included) but the work of CIA to give back the investments to USA based mafia is a legend in it self. Castro is about to survided at least 8 murder attempts.

The similar story can be seen in Iran. So do not expect thelocal people to expect anything good from USA, even if their local goverment is also suns of bitches.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Ir ... '%C3%A9tat


History is violent, mankind has perpetuated its own violence in every form of government its has ever devised. The struggle for global power is soaked in blood, all those that have ever played in the game have blood on their hands. This idea that “my side is righteous and the other is evil” is quite possibly the biggest fallacy to ever be implanted in one’s brain. The game is dangerous and Soleimani knew the risks of the game he was playing. He wasn’t some poor innocent guy at the wrong place at the wrong time. He knew his risk, the US and Trump aren’t righteous, it’s just that the US is powerful enough to make the rules. And that right there is a lesson in human history, the strongest make the rules until someone stronger takes over and creates new rules. Complain all you want, but it’s not going to change anything. This world isn’t fair, humans aren’t fair. Maybe someday the US gets knocked down, oh well, life goes on as it has for centuries.
 
TheF15Ace
Posts: 321
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:53 am

LCDFlight wrote:

But this is a special case where the US holds that IRG is a terror organization, and I would guess there is a good trove of evidence for that.


You guessed wrong. MBS said ''Jump'' and his bitch Trump asked ''How high?''
 
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seb146
Posts: 23962
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:53 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This is why it won’t happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Praying_Mantis

The Iranians are not stupid or crazy, they’ll have a measured response using a cut-out to provide cover.


But if there wasn't the hatred of Europe and Obama, none of this would have happened anyway, so...
 
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seb146
Posts: 23962
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:56 am

Aesma wrote:
Explain this to me : how can Trump kill this guy, but kiss Kim's ass ?


Kim Jung Un is reportedly having his military build ICBMs. But, they do not practice Islam which, as we all know, is evil. Ask any MAGA fan.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:42 am

dmg626 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
For the first time in history, the Red Flag has been unfurled over the dome of Jamkarān Mosque, Qom, Iran.

The Red Flag: A symbol of severe battle to come.

https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-new ... urce=twCNN


Chillingly written across the "war flag" were the words: "Those who want to avenge the blood of Hussein". Red flags in Shiite tradition symbolise both blood spilled unjustly and serve as a call to avenge a person who is slain. It was hoisted above the important Jamkaran Mosque which is on the outskirts of the holy city of Qom, about 100 miles south of Tehran. It took to the skies as General Qasem Soleimani's daughter pleaded with the Iranian president to strike back over her father's death. “Who is going to avenge my father’s blood?” she was reported as asking Hassan Rouhani during his visit to the family's Tehran home. “We will avenge, all of us will avenge his blood. Don’t you worry,” Mr Rouhani replied, according to Iraqi Kurdistan news site Rudaw. The news came as an Iranian military leader said his forces had pinpointed dozens of US interests for attack including “destroyers and warships” near the Persian Gulf and Tel Aviv. General Gholamali Abuhamzeh warned of a possible attack on “vital American targets” located in the Strait of Hormuz in retaliation of Soleimani’s death. “Vital American targets in the region have been identified by Iran since long time ago ... some 35 US targets in the region, as well as Tel Aviv, are within our reach," he said.



https://twitter.com/SiffatZahra/status/ ... 88128?s=20

Image

Image



Will make a good target for cruise missiles, might need more targets as all command and control and all bases will be reduced to rubble


Are you seriously this glib about targeting one of the most ancient cities/holy sites on the planet? You obviously don’t know anything about Qom. Haven’t the Iranian people been through enough the last 40 years? A quote from Iranian writer Marjane Satrapi seems apt:

"If I have one message to give to the secular American people, it’s that the world is not divided into countries. The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don’t know each other, but we talk together and we understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same."

This was in response to this question: "Do you see similarities between the Christian fundamentalists in our government and the mullahs in Iran?”


http://tblooming.blogspot.com/2012/02/q ... t.html?m=1
 
BN747
Posts: 7934
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:49 am

Flaps wrote:
BN747 wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:

Did you even read what he wrote? “is gambling extraordinary escalation will allow it to reassert control of an intensifying U.S.-Iran confrontation. It may actually work. But weathering the diplomatic and military fallout will require far greater skill and competence than Trump’s team has displayed so far.”

And you wonder why we’re concerned. Both GW Bush and Obama had opportunities to take him out but did not because they both feared it would escalate to full out warfare. Two Presidents, of two different parties both felt the same, and in doing so kept us out of a shooting war with Iran. A difficult, uneasy, situation to be sure, but it wasn’t war. Trump the casino king thinks differently.


Blind Hatred for trump, ha? That's funny because I had a blind hatred for well resourced kids who grew up to become even bigger losers than their parents imagined and voluntarily remained ignorant.

Just that now, one has made it into the presidency.

Now, were Herman Uzbeki-beki-beki-stan Cain president, I'd torpedo his ass too because just like your hero...he's an idiot as well, I'm sure I have posts here of me displaying 'Blind Hatred for Cain' too.

I just hate Super Stupid people in Super Important positions...it's watch that 'worse DMV' person become the Supervisor, but this is far worse. The country is hoisted into danger over the vapid impulses of a moron. Too bad you're not a teen any longer, you could go fight for him..and that's who you'd be fighting for, not America but trump.

But your gamble on a bonehead move, is floating us into creating another Global headache ...ALL because you hero, just had to rip apart the Iranian armed treaty deal Because Obama had made it.

I mean that is why we are here today, right?

A Chucklehead got insanely mad over a deal his predecessor did (along with a 1000 other things) and now lives are being lost.

A beginning and an end...so now, tell us this glorious ending you are anticipating...or are you too hoping the bombs will silence the Impeachment calls?


BN747


So much bluster and emotion. So little logic. The inactions of Bush and Obama merely delayed the inevitable and in the process strengthened the Iranian regime.
There is a lot that I don't like about the US being in the Middle East. There is a lot that I don't like about how and why we got there. The reality though is we're there. The clock can't be turned back. The situation is what it is. It's not going to solve itself peacefully just as it hasn't for thousands of years.
The Iranian regime has never had peaceful intentions so stop trying to put lipstick on a pig. Both countries are aggressors and invaders. The situation has gone on too long already. What will be will be



"So much bluster and emotion." So little logic. BUT 100% irrefutable Zero emotion among facts...refute what you can. - Cancel that charge.

"The inactions of Bush and Obama merely delayed the inevitable and in the process strengthened the Iranian regime. "
Fact: The US Gov't dating back to 1950s and their disposal of President mossadegh and installing the ruthless Shah paved the way for the red carpet welcome of the Ayatollah Khomeni - creating the Iran we know today - The first Bushset up an FUBAR'd the 1st Iraq attack, Jr FUBAR'd the 2nd, Obama 'continued the FUBAR...why would a smart guy follow FUBARs? Corporate (oil) Masters is why.

It comes down to a bad choice started by the US led to all this.

And another bad choice was made with the killing of Gen. Saliemani ..who could have been taken out many times for many years...serves bo strategic advantage to America, the Region in any way shape or form. - Cancel that charge.
There is a lot that I don't like about the US being in the Middle East. There is a lot that I don't like about how and why we got there. The reality though is we're there.

Talk about at jettison of logic! The two statements by you above are underscored by my post summizing US/Iranian history.
The reality though is we're there. The clock can't be turned back. The situation is what it is. It's not going to solve itself peacefully just as it hasn't for thousands of years.
Then you state this..
The Iranian regime has never had peaceful intentions so stop trying to put lipstick on a pig. Both countries are aggressors and invaders. The situation has gone on too long already. What will be will be..

...If the situation 'is what it is', logic then dictates actions taken with aims at diminishing bloodshed. What will be 'more ignorance' will be that or logic (which is nuance from tribe to tribe) demands that ignorance be overcome in order to avoid the worse possible outcome. Or just throw your hands up and sit back and watch.


Reddevil556 wrote:
History is violent, mankind has perpetuated its own violence in every form of government its has ever devised. The struggle for global power is soaked in blood, all those that have ever played in the game have blood on their hands. This idea that “my side is righteous and the other is evil” is quite possibly the biggest fallacy to ever be implanted in one’s brain. The game is dangerous and Soleimani knew the risks of the game he was playing.


All fact and irrefutable. Except that last line about knowing the (unspoken) rules of the game.
I'd say the days of topside leaderships being taken out have started dying out because it taints the benefactor more so now than in the days it did not matter.
The world has learned to now get together and economically punish the ruthless.

True the US can't be really punished for relation in that way but it can be hurt by savage bombings everywhere around the globe, gov't workers & civilians included. So a limit does exist on those unspoken rules...only thing is, you won't know it until you've crossed it.


Reddevil556 wrote:
He wasn’t some poor innocent guy at the wrong place at the wrong time. He knew his risk, the US and Trump aren’t righteous, it’s just that the US is powerful enough to make the rules.


And that is the absolute truth, and when you are that leader...the question begs to be asked - what type of leader are you now?

Reddevil556 wrote:
it’s just that the US is powerful enough to make the rules. And that right there is a lesson in human history, the strongest make the rules until someone stronger takes over and creates new rules. Complain all you want, but it’s not going to change anything. This world isn’t fair, humans aren’t fair. Maybe someday the US gets knocked down, oh well, life goes on as it has for centuries.


Can't argue any of that but I would say that ONLY intelligent leadership will sustain that period of 'empire' versus the ignorant Iron fist (everything pre-1970s). The Ignorant leadership will hasten our demise.

The entire world now has a hold of 'information', instant information..meaning spontaneous eruptions of civil unrest can appear at any given moment. Today it appears we're on the Cave Man Express.

BN747
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:52 am

Reddevil556 wrote:
olle wrote:
We can only pray that the Iran regime is more strategic then the USA one. But in some way they will need to do something that for the Arabic world will be counted for but without getting into hot war.

I have not soo much experience of ME but I have of South America. In South America with coups and CIA influence. CIA murders has been standard the last 60 years. Castro might be in many peoples eyes (mine included) but the work of CIA to give back the investments to USA based mafia is a legend in it self. Castro is about to survided at least 8 murder attempts.

The similar story can be seen in Iran. So do not expect thelocal people to expect anything good from USA, even if their local goverment is also suns of bitches.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Ir ... '%C3%A9tat


History is violent, mankind has perpetuated its own violence in every form of government its has ever devised. The struggle for global power is soaked in blood, all those that have ever played in the game have blood on their hands. This idea that “my side is righteous and the other is evil” is quite possibly the biggest fallacy to ever be implanted in one’s brain. The game is dangerous and Soleimani knew the risks of the game he was playing. He wasn’t some poor innocent guy at the wrong place at the wrong time. He knew his risk, the US and Trump aren’t righteous, it’s just that the US is powerful enough to make the rules. And that right there is a lesson in human history, the strongest make the rules until someone stronger takes over and creates new rules. Complain all you want, but it’s not going to change anything. This world isn’t fair, humans aren’t fair. Maybe someday the US gets knocked down, oh well, life goes on as it has for centuries.


All true but doesn’t change the fact that actually deciding to engage in war is the most egregious failure of imagination.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:05 am

LMP737 wrote:
Flaps wrote:



The inactions of Bush and Obama merely delayed the inevitable and in the process strengthened the Iranian regime.


Negative. Iran is in this position for two reasons. One, the Bush Administration invading Iraq in the first place. No invasion, Saddam Hussein still in power which means guys like Soleimani would not dare step foot in Iraq. Chances are then most of us would have never heard of the guy. Second, Trump tearing up the nuke treaty all because he has a hard on for Obama and he's gullible enough to listen to people like John Bolton. Then ratcheting up the pressure naively thinking that the regime in Iran would just lay over and play dead for him.


Saddam would be 82 and very likely dead by now. You know what—Iraq would in the same mess without us being there. Iraq is a “made up” country, by Churchill no less, and could only be held together by a tyrant, Saddam was the last one. And when he left the scene horizontally, it would tear itself apart as it is doing now. The war just accelerated the denouement date.

Somehow, the Franco-American toppling of Qaddafi was quite acceptable even if it created another failed state.


GF
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:26 am

According to sources in Tehran, US made an offer via Qatar's FM to Iran's FM to drop all sanctions and return to the nuclear deal in exchange for no revenge or an equal response. In other words, US just offered to let Iran kill one of their own generals. Trump threatened to strike Iran after they rejected his offer.

https://twitter.com/ejmalrai/status/121 ... 43393?s=20
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:35 am

sonicruiser wrote:
According to sources in Tehran, US made an offer via Qatar's FM to Iran's FM to drop all sanctions and return to the nuclear deal in exchange for no revenge or an equal response. In other words, US just offered to let Iran kill one of their own generals. Trump threatened to strike Iran after they rejected his offer.

https://twitter.com/ejmalrai/status/121 ... 43393?s=20


That is a highly unreliable report. It is *very* unlikely that the current foreign policy assemblage in the 45 administration would offer a return to the original JPCOA conditions.
 
Cerecl
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:45 am

LCDFlight wrote:
His location itself was incriminating. He was engaged in combat against the US and Iraq.

No questions about his past and maybe future (but not imminent) threat to US, but this guys was killed at Baghdad International Airport. How is that incriminating? Where is your evidence of him being "in combat" with Iraq? He was there as an ally of Iraq and Iraqi Prime Minister condemned the airstrike. Please refrain from making stuff up.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50995792
 
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Kiwirob
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:13 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
hitting a couple of tankers doesn’t do much much, so what do they do?

Doesn't do much? No, that's the most disruptive thing they could possibly do. Hit a few tankers in the Straits of Hormuz and it would create a huge ****storm. Oil will skyrocket, the world economy would take a hit.

No one sane thinks Iran stands a chance in a conventional fight, that's why they aren't going to embarrass themselves / have half their military wiped out instantly to do so.

Really glad we're staying out of pointless foreign entanglements like was stated on the campaign trail. 2024 can't come soon enough (2020 if we're lucky)

Edit: I'll add they're outgunned in every conventional sense. But after almost 2 decades of war, the Iranians certainly outgun us in patience and willingness to take some casualties. Sure we can easily win this, but at what cost? A cost most Americans aren't willing to accept. Let's get out of the region already. Let Russia or China have their fun and waste their time, money, and troops


Taking out a few tankers and shutting down the strait also hurts there oil exports. How about taking out someone close to Trump, a family member maybe??
 
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scbriml
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:37 am

Aaron747 wrote:
It is *very* unlikely that the current foreign policy assemblage in the 45 administration would offer a return to the original JPCOA conditions.


But that is exactly Trump's MO:

    Claim X is a problem.
    Break X.
    Propose X as solution.
    Claim victory.

Rinse and repeat.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:43 am

scbriml wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It is *very* unlikely that the current foreign policy assemblage in the 45 administration would offer a return to the original JPCOA conditions.


But that is exactly Trump's MO:

    Claim X is a problem.
    Break X.
    Propose X as solution.
    Claim victory.

Rinse and repeat.


There would be some cosmetic change to point to as "see, I delivered a much better deal".

Best regards
Thomas
 
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scbriml
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
scbriml wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It is *very* unlikely that the current foreign policy assemblage in the 45 administration would offer a return to the original JPCOA conditions.


But that is exactly Trump's MO:

    Claim X is a problem.
    Break X.
    Propose X as solution.
    Claim victory.

Rinse and repeat.


There would be some cosmetic change to point to as "see, I delivered a much better deal".

Best regards
Thomas


Well of course, hyperbole and boasting has to be involved as part of claiming victory.
 
AeroVega
Posts: 374
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:32 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:13 am

scbriml wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
It is *very* unlikely that the current foreign policy assemblage in the 45 administration would offer a return to the original JPCOA conditions.


But that is exactly Trump's MO:

    Claim X is a problem.
    Break X.
    Propose X as solution.
    Claim victory.

Rinse and repeat.


Not going to happen. As long as Israel is opposed to the JPCOA and Trump is in power, the US will not return to the JPCOA.
 
GDB
Posts: 14396
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:48 am

glideslope900 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:
Don’t tempt me with a good time chief. Been to Afghanistan, trained with Armed forces from around the world. Iranian army is trash, no relevant combat experience in the past 30 years, they are good at IEDs and small scale stuff. In open war on a full spectrum battlefield the Iranians would be smashed within 72 hours. Iran’s only hope is China or Russia coming to their help, but that’s debatable. Dirty Mike and the boys are waiting for the invitation. Is there green grass that needs to grow?


For an open war, you’d have to get to Iran first. If the US is stupid enough to think it can win in Iran’s neighborhood, Iran can strike any American airbase or ship from multiple directions simultaneously at a time and place of their choosing in less time than you can boot up your useless Patriot system that can’t even stop a Saudi oil attack. Good luck with your 72 hour air campaign when your F22’s and B1B’s sitting at Al-Udeid are reduced to dust just like your RQ-4 shot down over the Persian Gulf, now in pieces and being reverse engineered. I suppose that you also think that the US has been unable to stop the rise of Iranian forces in the Gulf and regularly gets thrashed by their proxies for 40 years and running because they are trash, right? Iranians are masters of patience and the game of long revenge, Persian strategy is not something to be messed with except for the arrogant and foolish. 40 years of inhumane crippling sanctions isolating Iran from the world denying even medicine, shooting down a civilian airliner of passengers and not apologizing for it, and turning a blind eye to chemical weapons used against Iran in the devastating Iraq-Iran war has not and will never bring Iran to it knees, it has only made them the strongest, most powerful, resilient and feared country in the Middle East. In case you haven’t already realized, you are dealing with no ordinary country and no ordinary enemy. Persians have a long memory and do not forget their enemies or who betrayed them. Messing with Iran has consequences far more severe than anything your country has seen and will make America forget about any other war they have fought in the last 4 decades.



I highly doubt Iran is capable of this. Sounds like some nationalistic fervor?

What do you think about the outdated Iranian Air Force? 40 year old Iranian aircraft would be sitting ducks. They are still flying F-4s for God’s sake.

Today’s combat is all about air superiority. The US would likely not invade Iran, but rather decimate them from the air. The Iranian Air Force and Navy would be reduced to twisted smoldering metal like their General’s car was.


Ah yes, 'they' cannot win because they don't have our shiny toys, once heard about the North Vietnamese/Viet Cong and Iraq in 2003. The Taliban didn't have any such toys at all.
All of these were prepared to take heavy losses, the US is not. Bottom line. (Which is also why Korea ended in stalemate). Not a sparkling record is it?
As has been already pointed out, Iran suffered terribly in living memory and they know who 1) deposed their last democratic government and backed a corrupt despot. 2) Looked the other way and even helped Iraq in the 1980-88 war, which involved missile strikes on their cities and chemical weapons, WW1 style, on the battlefield. 3) Botched a mission to rescue the US hostages in 1980.

They saw those hostages, rightly or not, as spies. Well perhaps they need not have bothered, since the CIA was telling the US admin that the Shah will be a 'force for stability well into the 1980's'. Whereas MI6 was warning he'd likely fall from 1977 onwards, still what did they know, got a tiny fraction of CIA's budget?
And that was from a CIA that had a large presence in country under a friendly regime, guess too few of them left the embassy compound.
So what chance decent intel now? 40 years after they were slung out?
And if you think drones, spysats have made the need for 'on the ground' intel quaint or unneeded, you've no idea.

Just stick to chest beating and cheering the fly over at the superbowl.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2912
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:26 am

Aaron747 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
According to sources in Tehran, US made an offer via Qatar's FM to Iran's FM to drop all sanctions and return to the nuclear deal in exchange for no revenge or an equal response. In other words, US just offered to let Iran kill one of their own generals. Trump threatened to strike Iran after they rejected his offer.

https://twitter.com/ejmalrai/status/121 ... 43393?s=20


That is a highly unreliable report. It is *very* unlikely that the current foreign policy assemblage in the 45 administration would offer a return to the original JPCOA conditions.



Unfortunately, this is very likely true.

Just to add. . . The deafening silence from both China and Russia on this matter. It is not difficult to see that they are fine with this escalating to a full on fight...

GDB wrote:

For an open war, you’d have to get to Iran first. If the US is stupid enough to think it can win in Iran’s neighborhood, Iran can strike any American airbase or ship from multiple directions simultaneously at a time and place of their choosing in less time than you can boot up your useless Patriot system that can’t even stop a Saudi oil attack. Good luck with your 72 hour air campaign when your F22’s and B1B’s sitting at Al-Udeid are reduced to dust just like your RQ-4 shot down over the Persian Gulf, now in pieces and being reverse engineered. I suppose that you also think that the US has been unable to stop the rise of Iranian forces in the Gulf and regularly gets thrashed by their proxies for 40 years and running because they are trash, right? Iranians are masters of patience and the game of long revenge, Persian strategy is not something to be messed with except for the arrogant and foolish. 40 years of inhumane crippling sanctions isolating Iran from the world denying even medicine, shooting down a civilian airliner of passengers and not apologizing for it, and turning a blind eye to chemical weapons used against Iran in the devastating Iraq-Iran war has not and will never bring Iran to it knees, it has only made them the strongest, most powerful, resilient and feared country in the Middle East. In case you haven’t already realized, you are dealing with no ordinary country and no ordinary enemy. Persians have a long memory and do not forget their enemies or who betrayed them. Messing with Iran has consequences far more severe than anything your country has seen and will make America forget about any other war they have fought in the last 4 decades.


It is not even a matter of technology or training. Iran has what we do not. A unified cause.

We will tire and fatigue after the first 20,000 body bags or so. Not them. This will turn into an awful meat grinder, as well as the beginning of the story of how China now controls the world's energy supply...

There are no winners here, least of all the US.
 
Reddevil556
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:48 pm

GDB wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:

For an open war, you’d have to get to Iran first. If the US is stupid enough to think it can win in Iran’s neighborhood, Iran can strike any American airbase or ship from multiple directions simultaneously at a time and place of their choosing in less time than you can boot up your useless Patriot system that can’t even stop a Saudi oil attack. Good luck with your 72 hour air campaign when your F22’s and B1B’s sitting at Al-Udeid are reduced to dust just like your RQ-4 shot down over the Persian Gulf, now in pieces and being reverse engineered. I suppose that you also think that the US has been unable to stop the rise of Iranian forces in the Gulf and regularly gets thrashed by their proxies for 40 years and running because they are trash, right? Iranians are masters of patience and the game of long revenge, Persian strategy is not something to be messed with except for the arrogant and foolish. 40 years of inhumane crippling sanctions isolating Iran from the world denying even medicine, shooting down a civilian airliner of passengers and not apologizing for it, and turning a blind eye to chemical weapons used against Iran in the devastating Iraq-Iran war has not and will never bring Iran to it knees, it has only made them the strongest, most powerful, resilient and feared country in the Middle East. In case you haven’t already realized, you are dealing with no ordinary country and no ordinary enemy. Persians have a long memory and do not forget their enemies or who betrayed them. Messing with Iran has consequences far more severe than anything your country has seen and will make America forget about any other war they have fought in the last 4 decades.



I highly doubt Iran is capable of this. Sounds like some nationalistic fervor?

What do you think about the outdated Iranian Air Force? 40 year old Iranian aircraft would be sitting ducks. They are still flying F-4s for God’s sake.

Today’s combat is all about air superiority. The US would likely not invade Iran, but rather decimate them from the air. The Iranian Air Force and Navy would be reduced to twisted smoldering metal like their General’s car was.


Ah yes, 'they' cannot win because they don't have our shiny toys, once heard about the North Vietnamese/Viet Cong and Iraq in 2003. The Taliban didn't have any such toys at all.
All of these were prepared to take heavy losses, the US is not. Bottom line. (Which is also why Korea ended in stalemate). Not a sparkling record is it?
As has been already pointed out, Iran suffered terribly in living memory and they know who 1) deposed their last democratic government and backed a corrupt despot. 2) Looked the other way and even helped Iraq in the 1980-88 war, which involved missile strikes on their cities and chemical weapons, WW1 style, on the battlefield. 3) Botched a mission to rescue the US hostages in 1980.

They saw those hostages, rightly or not, as spies. Well perhaps they need not have bothered, since the CIA was telling the US admin that the Shah will be a 'force for stability well into the 1980's'. Whereas MI6 was warning he'd likely fall from 1977 onwards, still what did they know, got a tiny fraction of CIA's budget?
And that was from a CIA that had a large presence in country under a friendly regime, guess too few of them left the embassy compound.
So what chance decent intel now? 40 years after they were slung out?
And if you think drones, spysats have made the need for 'on the ground' intel quaint or unneeded, you've no idea.

Just stick to chest beating and cheering the fly over at the superbowl.


You totally missed my satire
 
Reddevil556
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:55 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
According to sources in Tehran, US made an offer via Qatar's FM to Iran's FM to drop all sanctions and return to the nuclear deal in exchange for no revenge or an equal response. In other words, US just offered to let Iran kill one of their own generals. Trump threatened to strike Iran after they rejected his offer.

https://twitter.com/ejmalrai/status/121 ... 43393?s=20


That is a highly unreliable report. It is *very* unlikely that the current foreign policy assemblage in the 45 administration would offer a return to the original JPCOA conditions.



Unfortunately, this is very likely true.

Just to add. . . The deafening silence from both China and Russia on this matter. It is not difficult to see that they are fine with this escalating to a full on fight...

GDB wrote:

For an open war, you’d have to get to Iran first. If the US is stupid enough to think it can win in Iran’s neighborhood, Iran can strike any American airbase or ship from multiple directions simultaneously at a time and place of their choosing in less time than you can boot up your useless Patriot system that can’t even stop a Saudi oil attack. Good luck with your 72 hour air campaign when your F22’s and B1B’s sitting at Al-Udeid are reduced to dust just like your RQ-4 shot down over the Persian Gulf, now in pieces and being reverse engineered. I suppose that you also think that the US has been unable to stop the rise of Iranian forces in the Gulf and regularly gets thrashed by their proxies for 40 years and running because they are trash, right? Iranians are masters of patience and the game of long revenge, Persian strategy is not something to be messed with except for the arrogant and foolish. 40 years of inhumane crippling sanctions isolating Iran from the world denying even medicine, shooting down a civilian airliner of passengers and not apologizing for it, and turning a blind eye to chemical weapons used against Iran in the devastating Iraq-Iran war has not and will never bring Iran to it knees, it has only made them the strongest, most powerful, resilient and feared country in the Middle East. In case you haven’t already realized, you are dealing with no ordinary country and no ordinary enemy. Persians have a long memory and do not forget their enemies or who betrayed them. Messing with Iran has consequences far more severe than anything your country has seen and will make America forget about any other war they have fought in the last 4 decades.


It is not even a matter of technology or training. Iran has what we do not. A unified cause.

We will tire and fatigue after the first 20,000 body bags or so. Not them. This will turn into an awful meat grinder, as well as the beginning of the story of how China now controls the world's energy supply...

There are no winners here, least of all the US.


So you buy into Iranian state controlled media? 20,000 body bags? How did you gather that number? Do you have an idea how combat would unfold? Iran could hold its own turf for a decent amount of time, but they have little capability to deploy forces for a fight on neutral turf.

Man won’t it be beautiful once the developed world becomes energy independent from oil?
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 15995
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:38 pm

Aerial footage linked by a Lebanese poly sci professor of what appears to be millions attending Soleimani’s funeral:

https://twitter.com/amalsaad_lb/status/ ... 29024?s=21
 
GDB
Posts: 14396
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:53 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
GDB wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:


I highly doubt Iran is capable of this. Sounds like some nationalistic fervor?

What do you think about the outdated Iranian Air Force? 40 year old Iranian aircraft would be sitting ducks. They are still flying F-4s for God’s sake.

Today’s combat is all about air superiority. The US would likely not invade Iran, but rather decimate them from the air. The Iranian Air Force and Navy would be reduced to twisted smoldering metal like their General’s car was.


Ah yes, 'they' cannot win because they don't have our shiny toys, once heard about the North Vietnamese/Viet Cong and Iraq in 2003. The Taliban didn't have any such toys at all.
All of these were prepared to take heavy losses, the US is not. Bottom line. (Which is also why Korea ended in stalemate). Not a sparkling record is it?
As has been already pointed out, Iran suffered terribly in living memory and they know who 1) deposed their last democratic government and backed a corrupt despot. 2) Looked the other way and even helped Iraq in the 1980-88 war, which involved missile strikes on their cities and chemical weapons, WW1 style, on the battlefield. 3) Botched a mission to rescue the US hostages in 1980.

They saw those hostages, rightly or not, as spies. Well perhaps they need not have bothered, since the CIA was telling the US admin that the Shah will be a 'force for stability well into the 1980's'. Whereas MI6 was warning he'd likely fall from 1977 onwards, still what did they know, got a tiny fraction of CIA's budget?
And that was from a CIA that had a large presence in country under a friendly regime, guess too few of them left the embassy compound.
So what chance decent intel now? 40 years after they were slung out?
And if you think drones, spysats have made the need for 'on the ground' intel quaint or unneeded, you've no idea.

Just stick to chest beating and cheering the fly over at the superbowl.


You totally missed my satire


Fair enough, however it's hard to be satirical about such a monumentally stupid act by a monumentally stupid and proudly ignorant President.
 
Reddevil556
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:55 pm

GDB wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:
GDB wrote:

Ah yes, 'they' cannot win because they don't have our shiny toys, once heard about the North Vietnamese/Viet Cong and Iraq in 2003. The Taliban didn't have any such toys at all.
All of these were prepared to take heavy losses, the US is not. Bottom line. (Which is also why Korea ended in stalemate). Not a sparkling record is it?
As has been already pointed out, Iran suffered terribly in living memory and they know who 1) deposed their last democratic government and backed a corrupt despot. 2) Looked the other way and even helped Iraq in the 1980-88 war, which involved missile strikes on their cities and chemical weapons, WW1 style, on the battlefield. 3) Botched a mission to rescue the US hostages in 1980.

They saw those hostages, rightly or not, as spies. Well perhaps they need not have bothered, since the CIA was telling the US admin that the Shah will be a 'force for stability well into the 1980's'. Whereas MI6 was warning he'd likely fall from 1977 onwards, still what did they know, got a tiny fraction of CIA's budget?
And that was from a CIA that had a large presence in country under a friendly regime, guess too few of them left the embassy compound.
So what chance decent intel now? 40 years after they were slung out?
And if you think drones, spysats have made the need for 'on the ground' intel quaint or unneeded, you've no idea.

Just stick to chest beating and cheering the fly over at the superbowl.


You totally missed my satire


Fair enough, however it's hard to be satirical about such a monumentally stupid act by a monumentally stupid and proudly ignorant President.


I was responding to Soniccruiser’s threat of a fight. The strike happened, strikes happened with Obama, strikes happened with Bush, heck they even happen with Clinton.
 
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N14AZ
Posts: 4233
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:01 pm

N583JB wrote:
Rest assured that China and Russia are just as invested in meddling in Middle Eastern affairs as the United States is.

Thank you. But I don't buy it. Could you provide some facts about "China being invested in meddling in Middle Eastern affairs as the Unitied States is"? How often did China start a military strike in Middle East based on faked facts (e.g. weapons of mass destruction...)?

olle wrote:
By the way there is no proof says US senate hearings that Iran or hisbollah new anything about 9/11.

How is it possible that Pence continuing telling these lies?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... edium=Feed

"Possible"? It's the way this adminstration works. Repeating lies. It started right away with the inaugoration ceremony…

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Somehow, the Franco-American toppling of Qaddafi was quite acceptable even if it created another failed state.

This is exactly the issue I have with US American foreign affairs. So it is acceptable to intervene, reach a quick wins and to leave a "failed state" behind? Doesn't sound as a good plan to me but a pretty good description of what is happening again and again. Maybe you can say that easily because, living on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, you don't have to deal with all the refugees, who come to Europe from these "failed states".
 
Reddevil556
Posts: 275
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:09 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:16 pm

N14AZ wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Rest assured that China and Russia are just as invested in meddling in Middle Eastern affairs as the United States is.

Thank you. But I don't buy it. Could you provide some facts about "China being invested in meddling in Middle Eastern affairs as the Unitied States is"? How often did China start a military strike in Middle East based on faked facts (e.g. weapons of mass destruction...)?

olle wrote:
By the way there is no proof says US senate hearings that Iran or hisbollah new anything about 9/11.

How is it possible that Pence continuing telling these lies?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... edium=Feed

"Possible"? It's the way this adminstration works. Repeating lies. It started right away with the inaugoration ceremony…

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Somehow, the Franco-American toppling of Qaddafi was quite acceptable even if it created another failed state.

This is exactly the issue I have with US American foreign affairs. So it is acceptable to intervene, reach a quick wins and to leave a "failed state" behind? Doesn't sound as a good plan to me but a pretty good description of what is happening again and again. Maybe you can say that easily because, living on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, you don't have to deal with all the refugees, who come to Europe from these "failed states".


France was actively involved in creating one of the failed states. So it’s not as if Europe hasn’t dabbled in regime change in the past decade.

Also some of the “fake” intel on the weapons of mass destruction came from...well US allies in none other than...gasp...Europe. Doesn’t mean the invasion was justified or even remotely a good idea, but wow for political amnesia. I don’t even think anyone here is even trying to justify the invasion of Iraq in 2003, so I’m not quite sure why it keeps getting brought up. That was two presidents ago and we can’t change history. Most Americans think it was a foolish venture, even Bush has expressed regret over the decision.
 
NoTime
Posts: 625
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:36 pm

It's incredible that so many people think this will turn into an actual war.

Iran stands absolutely zero chance of winning a conventional war. Zero. They know it, and the US knows it. The only thing Iran can actually do effectively is continue what they've been doing for decades (sponsoring proxy groups to attack whatever targets, military and civilian, they can get to). So, we will for sure see an uptick in terrorist attacks, but all this talk of WWIII and reinstating the draft is absolute nonsense.

Could Iran send a few infantry battalions towards martyrdom in an attempt to prove something? I suppose. But even that is a long shot. They know the calculus involved.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:47 pm

Trump talking about 52 targets as a reference to 52 hostages in 1979. That way it's clear, this has nothing to do with what Iran is doing, everything to do with bloodthirsty people dreaming of some kind of revenge.
 
94717
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:55 pm

It seems like the iraq parliament demand us to leave the country.
 
SanDiegoLover
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:55 pm

Aesma wrote:
Trump talking about 52 targets as a reference to 52 hostages in 1979. That way it's clear, this has nothing to do with what Iran is doing, everything to do with bloodthirsty people dreaming of some kind of revenge.


Yup! And he’s even invoking committing war crimes by bombing cultural and religious sites. This; before any hard decisions need to be made or the inevitable fog of war / dreadful decisions that are faced once bullets and cyberspace battles begin.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:56 pm

If he does that, expect the few "cultural" stuff you have in the US to disappear one day too.
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:24 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:59 pm

NoTime wrote:
It's incredible that so many people think this will turn into an actual war.

Iran stands absolutely zero chance of winning a conventional war. Zero. They know it, and the US knows it. The only thing Iran can actually do effectively is continue what they've been doing for decades (sponsoring proxy groups to attack whatever targets, military and civilian, they can get to). So, we will for sure see an uptick in terrorist attacks, but all this talk of WWIII and reinstating the draft is absolute nonsense.

Could Iran send a few infantry battalions towards martyrdom in an attempt to prove something? I suppose. But even that is a long shot. They know the calculus involved.


Are you really THAT obtuse? Who’s talking about two armies lining up on some mythical battlefield? Their are several war hawks here already claiming victory that we could “own the skies” of Iran.....well then what? You do realize this would be an asymmetrical war, correct?
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 431
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:08 pm

Reddevil556 wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
Reddevil556 wrote:

Do you really think all those people were there because they wanted to be? That comparison is about as relevant as comparing a US campaign rally to a North Korean parade. The difference between living in a free and open society and a closed authoritarian government. It must be sad to live with so much hatred for Trump. I’m not even a Trump supporter, but this obsession with hating him is crippling.


LOL! What’s sad is that your thought process is so black and white that you can’t comprehend that people who are critical of this President might have good reason to, and multiple reasons to, but you must lump all of that under “hate”.

What’s even more pathetically sad is; I’ve done this rodeo before with this kind of blind, nationalistic, fervor regarding the Iraq War, on this very site. I was one of the 15% who was against it then. This site was right wing / right of center back then. I was told over and over and over again to; “shut up”, “I hated freedom”, “I hated Bush”, “I hated America”. Once the war began I was told repeatedly; “the time for debate was over”, “support the troops or I’m a traitor”, and other such simplistic nonsense. Now, all of those blind supporters pretend they never liked GW Bush, and consistently gloss over or forget they voted for him...TWICE! Just several months ago those same posters were wanting nothing to do with the Middle East. But now, wave that stupid, childish, nationalistic flag in front of their eyes, and they are hung ho for another war that will end the US as we know it. We still have a multi-trillion tab coming due for Iraq, and you think we can withstand a war 3 or 4 times the size and cost? You do realize we are marching headlong into a full blown war, don’t you?


You do realize that Obama has far more blood on his hands than Trump does right? It’s never black and white, it’s always gray. GOP or DNC, the machine rolls. Both parties cry the same nonsense when the other is in power. Fear mongering doomsday speech is right out of the playbook when the rival party makes a bold move. I just see past the BS of the rodeo.


LOL! Now you want to invoke “grey” with “Obama”. Stop changing the subject. You claimed we were all “haters”. Now explain you position that this latest flare up is just more of the same, only different and if we weren’t all just “haters” it would be clear to us. While you are chill about this, some of us see this as a very unique, very aggressive act, towards an unpredictable country that we are increasingly backing into a corner.

And for the record, I’ve stated before, and in this very thread, I despised the current drone policy and have since GW Bush and including thru Obama.
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 431
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:12 pm

olle wrote:
It seems like the iraq parliament demand us to leave the country.


Yup! Exactly as I predicted.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/ ... against-us

Now cue wingnuts soothing their egos by screaming....”fine, we didn’t want to be there anyway”....and other childish sentiments.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:39 pm

That took even less time than anticipated. Great, so now it’s official - not only did the 2003 invasion have zero connection to 9/11, but we have completely failed to stabilize Iraq or offer any permanent solutions. 4,809 coalition deaths, anywhere from 150K to 660K civilian casualties (depending which estimate you accept), and $2+ trillion later, we are expelled by the Iraqis for attacking their other benefactor. Tucker Carlson sounds more correct by the minute: ‘who was this actually for? Who actually stood to benefit? Certainly not the American people’
 
94717
Posts: 2789
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 3:48 pm

Remember that this general just saved iraq as country... The iraq pariament need to make Iran stay.
 
NoTime
Posts: 625
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:21 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:08 pm

SanDiegoLover wrote:
NoTime wrote:
It's incredible that so many people think this will turn into an actual war.

Iran stands absolutely zero chance of winning a conventional war. Zero. They know it, and the US knows it. The only thing Iran can actually do effectively is continue what they've been doing for decades (sponsoring proxy groups to attack whatever targets, military and civilian, they can get to). So, we will for sure see an uptick in terrorist attacks, but all this talk of WWIII and reinstating the draft is absolute nonsense.

Could Iran send a few infantry battalions towards martyrdom in an attempt to prove something? I suppose. But even that is a long shot. They know the calculus involved.


Are you really THAT obtuse? Who’s talking about two armies lining up on some mythical battlefield? Their are several war hawks here already claiming victory that we could “own the skies” of Iran.....well then what? You do realize this would be an asymmetrical war, correct?


Are you really THAT obtuse? Of course it would be asymmetrical. That's kind of what I was explaining...?
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:29 pm

Imagine Iran using Bavar-373 to defend UNESCO cultural and heritage sites like Persepolis going forward because America has turned into ISIS with an airforce.
 
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keesje
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:37 pm

I saw an interview with an Iraqi woman in the streets of Bagdad. She said she doesn't like Iran influence in Iraq. She also said she doesn't like the US-Iran fight being fought in her country.

Maybe they better do that on their own soil, their own cities. Makes everybody a little closer involved in decisions on life and dead. Bombings etc.
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:24 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:38 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Imagine Iran using Bavar-373 to defend UNESCO cultural and heritage sites like Persepolis going forward because America has turned into ISIS with an airforce.


A good read: https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... stem-77236
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 12585
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
That took even less time than anticipated. Great, so now it’s official - not only did the 2003 invasion have zero connection to 9/11, but we have completely failed to stabilize Iraq or offer any permanent solutions. 4,809 coalition deaths, anywhere from 150K to 660K civilian casualties (depending which estimate you accept), and $2+ trillion later, we are expelled by the Iraqis for attacking their other benefactor. Tucker Carlson sounds more correct by the minute: ‘who was this actually for? Who actually stood to benefit? Certainly not the American people’


:checkmark: crazy. And another question, who benefits from this line of action in the middle east by Trump?
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