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dtw2hyd
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:54 pm

scbriml wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
The USA could offer the moon to Iran, and they would probably not accept it.


Why would they with Trump in charge? Thanks to him, it will take years before others trust that the US will stick to an agreed deal again.


They should because Trump departed from the US government's "we don't assassin leaders" rule.

IMHO, Most of the world's prolonged miseries are result of this single rule. Imagine if Saddam, Bin Laden, Gaddafi and others were taken out with one drone strike without any civilian casualties, world in general and middle east in particular would be a peaceful place.

Would US Congress pickup this issue with Trump, maybe or may not. As much as Dems want to nail Trump, they will not risk looking unpartioric by supporting an Iranian general.

Are you suggesting every member of Iran's upper echelon are really mourning Soleimien's demise.
All posts are just opinions.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:53 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
scbriml wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
The USA could offer the moon to Iran, and they would probably not accept it.


Why would they with Trump in charge? Thanks to him, it will take years before others trust that the US will stick to an agreed deal again.


They should because Trump departed from the US government's "we don't assassin leaders" rule.


Good luck with that with a fundamentalist "i´ll be a Martyr" Government. Have you seen pictures of that General on front lines? No Vest, no Helmet, standing upright with shots being fired......
"Death" is no deterrent...

IMHO, Most of the world's prolonged miseries are result of this single rule. Imagine if Saddam, Bin Laden, Gaddafi and others were taken out with one drone strike without any civilian casualties, world in general and middle east in particular would be a peaceful place.


While generally a good idea that stuff is limited to people screwing it up, the problem is that if you make it acceptable to kill other countries leaders you are making it acceptable to kill your leaders. And if that becomes acceptable "Speaker of the House" will a thought after job as it would give you a decent chance to become president, but not having to serve long enough to be killed yourself.

Would US Congress pickup this issue with Trump, maybe or may not. As much as Dems want to nail Trump, they will not risk looking unpartioric by supporting an Iranian general.


The General is dead and can´t be supported. If they make an issue out of it, it will be because his act of war got you kicked out of Iraq.

Are you suggesting every member of Iran's upper echelon are really mourning Soleimien's demise.


I think most people understand that some people will benefit from his demise and are quite thankful ....

But be careful: When you replaced the Shah with the Ayatollah things got somewhat worse....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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scbriml
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:21 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
scbriml wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
The USA could offer the moon to Iran, and they would probably not accept it.


Why would they with Trump in charge? Thanks to him, it will take years before others trust that the US will stick to an agreed deal again.


They should because Trump departed from the US government's "we don't assassin leaders" rule.

IMHO, Most of the world's prolonged miseries are result of this single rule. Imagine if Saddam, Bin Laden, Gaddafi and others were taken out with one drone strike without any civilian casualties, world in general and middle east in particular would be a peaceful place.

Would US Congress pickup this issue with Trump, maybe or may not. As much as Dems want to nail Trump, they will not risk looking unpartioric by supporting an Iranian general.

Are you suggesting every member of Iran's upper echelon are really mourning Soleimien's demise.


The only thing I'm suggesting is, that with Trump in charge, many nations will not trust dealing with the US because he will tear up any deal to appease his base. International cooperation can't work on that basis. You seem to be reading way too much into what I've written.
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dtw2hyd
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:32 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
While generally a good idea that stuff is limited to people screwing it up, the problem is that if you make it acceptable to kill other countries leaders you are making it acceptable to kill your leaders.
best regards
Thomas


It may be my distorted understanding of history, but Americans won the revolutionary war after they started killing British generals. Had they followed traditional war rules, rag tag bunch had no chance of winning against British military might. It is just Americans reflecting on their own history and using lessons learned.

Recent history suggests Sri Lanka put an end to decades old civil war with same technique.

So much empathy for one general, not much for million Iraqi, Afghani or Syrian civilians.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:52 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
While generally a good idea that stuff is limited to people screwing it up, the problem is that if you make it acceptable to kill other countries leaders you are making it acceptable to kill your leaders.
best regards
Thomas


It may be my distorted understanding of history, but Americans won the revolutionary war after they started killing British generals. Had they followed traditional war rules, rag tag bunch had no chance of winning against British military might. It is just Americans reflecting on their own history and using lessons learned.

Recent history suggests Sri Lanka put an end to decades old civil war with same technique.

So much empathy for one general, not much for million Iraqi, Afghani or Syrian civilians.


In all those cases you posted, the wars were ended, after thousands of others were dead. This killing was to keep on a path towards full out war.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:00 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
While generally a good idea that stuff is limited to people screwing it up, the problem is that if you make it acceptable to kill other countries leaders you are making it acceptable to kill your leaders.
best regards
Thomas


It may be my distorted understanding of history, but Americans won the revolutionary war after they started killing British generals. Had they followed traditional war rules, rag tag bunch had no chance of winning against British military might. It is just Americans reflecting on their own history and using lessons learned.


That doesn't work on home territory... it is not like that hadn't been tried. Soldiers all over the planet learn to go for the commanders if they see one...

Recent history suggests Sri Lanka put an end to decades old civil war with same technique.


Actually that is a good analogy, because

a) there already was peace after 2002, until the tsunami hit and the Sri Lanka's government stole aid shipping destined for Tamil regions
b) the LTTE leadership was assassinated a day after they had declared a seize fire. So that may have been the reason for the violence after that.

So much empathy for one general, not much for million Iraqi, Afghani or Syrian civilians.


I haven't seen any "empathy" anywhere whatsoever.... what did I miss?

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
N757ST
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:09 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
According to the US the drone was 17.5 miles off the coast in international waters.


BS. Everyone knows you don't respect sovereign nations airspace with your drones. The Iranians don't have a massive collection of your drones without reason.


And even the DoD seems to disagree...

Image

Best regards
Thomas



Umm, your graphic shows it was never in Iraninan airspace.
 
N757ST
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:11 pm

VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
According to the US the drone was 17.5 miles off the coast in international waters.


BS. Everyone knows you don't respect sovereign nations airspace with your drones. The Iranians don't have a massive collection of your drones without reason.


N757ST wrote:
The embassy attack was an attack straight up, committed by militia (terrorists) supported by Iran. Yeah there were some sympathizers that joined in, but it was no riot.


It was a riot/protest, not attack. People get killed and wounded in attacks, not even the protesters suffered any wounded in this one.


N757ST wrote:
The 25 killed? The same Iranian supported militia men (terrorists) that had just fired rockets at our air base killing Americans.


Killing 1 american, a mercenary.


N757ST wrote:
Iranian limpit mines took those ships out. They tried to grab an unexploded ordinance off a ship as to not be implicated in the rest of the attacks. So nice of them to rescue that crew after they attacked the ship. Straight up do gooders right there.


Riddle me this: If the US authorities find an explosive device in a school, do they:
A) Leave it in place and risk that it blows up, lest they draw criticism from hawkish right-wing politicians that they themselves planted it?
or
B) Remove it before it causes a major disaster?

You are allowed to use your brain for this one :roll:
Hint: It is in nobody's interest that a tanker full of crude oil starts leaking into the Arabian Sea.


Iran for years has told the world it has the ability to close the straight, using those mines was an attempt to elbow the world and say see... we can.
 
N757ST
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:13 pm

anrec80 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
So then after all this bluster is done, that’s exactly what the US government and world leaders should offer. Completely and unilaterally dismantle your nuclear program. Allow a third party country to supply your nuclear plants and allow a third party to dispose of waste nuclear material. Discontinue funding terrorist networks worldwide. Take a “more” neutral position to Israel. In return the US retracts all sanctions, and encourages allies to do that same, establish a new US embassy and ambassador to Iran in Tehran. This isn’t hard. I know Trump might not be the president to do it, but this is the easy solution.


This was exactly what was offered to Iran under Obama administration, and everyone including Iran agreed and signed it. Later, Trump admin just reversed the agreement and pushed for additional demands to Iran. Expectedly, that did not get anywhere.


Obviously this is false, they never shut down their nuclear aspirations but merely paused them. They never stopped aiding their proxy forces either.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:35 pm

N757ST wrote:
Iran for years has told the world it has the ability to close the straight, using those mines was an attempt to elbow the world and say see... we can.


Or maybe it was a move by the pathetic Saudi or US regimes to frame the "eeeeeeevil" Iranians? The US and Saudi coalition had every motive to do it. The Iranians none at all.

The Trump administration has been doing everything in their power to provoke a war with Iran. They tore up the nuclear deal, imposed illegal sanctions, placed part of the Iranian military on its list of terrorist groups (barely recognized by anybody else), increased their military presence in neighboring countries with carriers and B-52s and increased provocative UAV flights. This was just another failed attempt.
The world has become wary of US fabrications after the malaise of 2003.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:40 pm

N757ST wrote:
Obviously this is false, they never shut down their nuclear aspirations but merely paused them.


Which was the entire point! It meant 20 years in which we could open them up to the west and make them friends and even allies. The moment they had the chance they leapt at the possibility of buying our products. They were more willing to open up than the Saudis ever were.


N757ST wrote:
They never stopped aiding their proxy forces either.


Whoop dee doo, maybe because it wasn't part of the nuclear deal?
 
LMP737
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:43 pm

N757ST wrote:

Do you not see a nuclear weapon is far different from anything including a MOAB. One nuke in a terrorists hands can obliterate 10x the losses in the Iraq war. The Iranian government chants death to America, funds terrorist networks, and yet oh why they wouldn’t supply that to them. That’s crazy?!! Really?


So dismissive of the death and destruction in that part of the world we are responsible for. You try and make excuses for it by saying things that have not happened that you seem to think might happen.

Here are the facts, Iran is in a position of power in Iraq because of the 2003 invasion. They were abiding by the nuclear agreement signed not only by use but by other countries as well. Then Trump withdraws from said agreement thinking he can do better. Which s far has shown he is incapable of doing. What amazes me is that people are shocked that Iran has not just rolled over and done Trumps bidding. It's as if they are completely ignorant of Iranian history the past hundred years.

What really blows my mind are people who use the same arguments in 2002 to justify the Iraq war. Hell, Mike Pence is speaking of Iran and 9-11 in the same breath,
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
LMP737
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:45 pm

Kiwirob wrote:

The attack on the Saudi Aramco oil processing facilities at Abqaiq showed that they have precision targeting abilities.


Different delivery systems. The oil facility attack was conducted with drones that you can guide right up until the point of impact.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:46 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
I haven't seen any "empathy" anywhere whatsoever.... what did I miss?

Best regards
Thomas


The human cost is different from one's perspective, take America's war on terrorism for example

From my side
5000 soldier lives
20000 wounded warriors

For someone from ME
Few thousand soldiers
Million+ civilian lives lost (mostly not counted)
3-5 Million refugees

Are you still suggesting prolonged wars (while saving leaders) are better option taking out leaders with minimum civilian causalities?
All posts are just opinions.
 
N757ST
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:51 pm

VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Obviously this is false, they never shut down their nuclear aspirations but merely paused them.


Which was the entire point! It meant 20 years in which we could open them up to the west and make them friends and even allies. The moment they had the chance they leapt at the possibility of buying our products. They were more willing to open up than the Saudis ever were.


N757ST wrote:
They never stopped aiding their proxy forces either.


Whoop dee doo, maybe because it wasn't part of the nuclear deal?


I understand that, I made a list of what Iran should do to get completely rid of the sanctions and normalize relations. The other poster said they did that, which they obviously didn’t.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:22 pm

N757ST wrote:
I understand that, I made a list of what Iran should do to get completely rid of the sanctions and normalize relations. The other poster said they did that, which they obviously didn’t.


It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:27 pm

VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
I understand that, I made a list of what Iran should do to get completely rid of the sanctions and normalize relations. The other poster said they did that, which they obviously didn’t.


It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.



He thinks the US runs Iran. Has avoided the topic of sovereignty completely in the current discussion.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N757ST
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:59 pm

casinterest wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
I understand that, I made a list of what Iran should do to get completely rid of the sanctions and normalize relations. The other poster said they did that, which they obviously didn’t.


It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.



He thinks the US runs Iran. Has avoided the topic of sovereignty completely in the current discussion.


No, I don’t. Listen, Iran is free to do what they want, but the fact that some of you can’t see the problem with them attempting to obtain nuclear weapons is confusing to me. I offered what I thought was a reasonable way to join the world. You disagree, fine then.

And now that it seems likely that Iran shot down the Ukrainian 737, how long before you all blame the US for that too.
 
N757ST
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:02 pm

VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
I understand that, I made a list of what Iran should do to get completely rid of the sanctions and normalize relations. The other poster said they did that, which they obviously didn’t.


It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.


The US gives up all sanctions, establishes trade, normalizes relations. Iran would quadruple their economy within years.
 
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casinterest
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:05 pm

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.



He thinks the US runs Iran. Has avoided the topic of sovereignty completely in the current discussion.


No, I don’t. Listen, Iran is free to do what they want, but the fact that some of you can’t see the problem with them attempting to obtain nuclear weapons is confusing to me. I offered what I thought was a reasonable way to join the world. You disagree, fine then.

And now that it seems likely that Iran shot down the Ukrainian 737, how long before you all blame the US for that too.

So quick deflection, and yet you offer no real solution to the Iranian sovereignty question.
How are we better off now than in 2015 under the Paris agreement?
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:09 pm

N757ST wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
I understand that, I made a list of what Iran should do to get completely rid of the sanctions and normalize relations. The other poster said they did that, which they obviously didn’t.


It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.


The US gives up all sanctions, establishes trade, normalizes relations. Iran would quadruple their economy within years.


And experience has shown us all that after a few years, the US is inevitably going to topple their regime anyway. You guys offered the exact same to Saddam and Gaddafi, look what happened to them.
The US needs to give up the illegal sanctions, allow free trade and pull out their military from the region. There is no other way at this point.


N757ST wrote:
And now that it seems likely that Iran shot down the Ukrainian 737, how long before you all blame the US for that too.


If it really was a shootdown, you bear a moral responsibility for the mess. If you hadn't screwed up by electing that nut in the white house, the entire thing would never have happened and they would be flying around in brand new 777s and A350s.
 
N757ST
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:14 pm

casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:


He thinks the US runs Iran. Has avoided the topic of sovereignty completely in the current discussion.


No, I don’t. Listen, Iran is free to do what they want, but the fact that some of you can’t see the problem with them attempting to obtain nuclear weapons is confusing to me. I offered what I thought was a reasonable way to join the world. You disagree, fine then.

And now that it seems likely that Iran shot down the Ukrainian 737, how long before you all blame the US for that too.

So quick deflection, and yet you offer no real solution to the Iranian sovereignty question.
How are we better off now than in 2015 under the Paris agreement?


Time will tell. If a new agreement can be set up that ends Iran’s nuclear ambitions then we will be better off. If not and Iran develops a nuclear weapon and starts threatening the region with it then we won’t.
 
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SQ22
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:14 pm

Please keep this thread on topic or it will be locked. Thanks.
 
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seb146
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:15 pm

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.



He thinks the US runs Iran. Has avoided the topic of sovereignty completely in the current discussion.


No, I don’t. Listen, Iran is free to do what they want, but the fact that some of you can’t see the problem with them attempting to obtain nuclear weapons is confusing to me. I offered what I thought was a reasonable way to join the world. You disagree, fine then.

And now that it seems likely that Iran shot down the Ukrainian 737, how long before you all blame the US for that too.


Iran was not trying to get nuclear weapons before the occupant of the White House tore up the agreement. That is the whole point. Add to that the people of Iran were seeing their country work with the world and wanting real change within their borders.

Yes, Iran can do what they want. They were also abiding by the treaty they signed with the world.

I will never understand why people want to rewrite history and ignore major events.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:17 pm

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:

No, I don’t. Listen, Iran is free to do what they want, but the fact that some of you can’t see the problem with them attempting to obtain nuclear weapons is confusing to me. I offered what I thought was a reasonable way to join the world. You disagree, fine then.

And now that it seems likely that Iran shot down the Ukrainian 737, how long before you all blame the US for that too.

So quick deflection, and yet you offer no real solution to the Iranian sovereignty question.
How are we better off now than in 2015 under the Paris agreement?


Time will tell. If a new agreement can be set up that ends Iran’s nuclear ambitions then we will be better off. If not and Iran develops a nuclear weapon and starts threatening the region with it then we won’t.


In realpolitik terms, they have a national interest to defend themselves as NPT signatories if KSA is indeed developing its own capability.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24823846

In some sense JPCOA was cognizant of that.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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casinterest
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:21 pm

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:

No, I don’t. Listen, Iran is free to do what they want, but the fact that some of you can’t see the problem with them attempting to obtain nuclear weapons is confusing to me. I offered what I thought was a reasonable way to join the world. You disagree, fine then.

And now that it seems likely that Iran shot down the Ukrainian 737, how long before you all blame the US for that too.

So quick deflection, and yet you offer no real solution to the Iranian sovereignty question.
How are we better off now than in 2015 under the Paris agreement?


Time will tell. If a new agreement can be set up that ends Iran’s nuclear ambitions then we will be better off. If not and Iran develops a nuclear weapon and starts threatening the region with it then we won’t.


So in other words, because the US walked away from an agreement that was working, we are left in a worse place with no solution forward, other than a new agreement which will probably get the world less than we want from Iran, since Iran does not trust us.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
wingman
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:30 pm

N757ST wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
I understand that, I made a list of what Iran should do to get completely rid of the sanctions and normalize relations. The other poster said they did that, which they obviously didn’t.


It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.


The US gives up all sanctions, establishes trade, normalizes relations. Iran would quadruple their economy within years.


The Paris deal had vision. It was a long-term play that required patience, which Trump and GOP did not have because, well, it was Obama's deal. At its heart the Paris deal had some great win/win components to it. They stopped building nukes and everyone got to sniff around and test whatever they wanted to in order to make sure that was the case. Neocons, or whatever exactly the GOP Party has become these days, scoffed at the premise saying it was all a sham and they'd build nukes anyway and would use "our" $400M giveaway to accelerate the outcome. But they purposely negate the fact that if Iran had been caught doing just that under the Paris deal, then US forces would be carpet bombing every single nuke installation..wait for it...right alongside the rest of the world. There would've been 1000 bombers from 20 nations flying overhead. And there'd be easily half of Iran's population working actively against their own regime having tasted the fruit of economic liberalization and now being threatened by a return to life in the slow and hard lane.

Now what do we have? The same exact outcome except it'll just be us by our lonesome doing this shit, and paying for it with magic money that no longer arrives in Treasury due to massive tax cuts, while the rest of the world tells us to fuck off with our latest adventure. And with 100% of Iran's population hating the US with every fiber of their collective being for another generation at least. What we did with this killing was monumentally stupid beyond all comprehension. One man alone was causing all these American and Allied casualties in the region? One guy was running around planting bombs, firing missiles, leading Shia factions against our interests? It's the most childish and idiotic notion ever posited by our government. If it was true then we can expect zero US or ME Allied deaths from here on out. Wait for it..wait for it..I'll be back as soon as we learn that premise is utter bullshit. It won't be long, trust me. Trump is a moron surrounded by morons. One day he wants out of the ME and the next he's getting us right back in for another 10-20 years and trillions of dollars. He's had three years to make up his half-functioning brain and we still don't have anything resembling a plan..just daily and contradictory vomitus from his and his rotating staff of boot-licking sycophants.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:47 pm

wingman wrote:
N757ST wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.


The US gives up all sanctions, establishes trade, normalizes relations. Iran would quadruple their economy within years.


The Paris deal had vision. It was a long-term play that required patience, which Trump and GOP did not have because, well, it was Obama's deal. At its heart the Paris deal had some great win/win components to it. They stopped building nukes and everyone got to sniff around and test whatever they wanted to in order to make sure that was the case. Neocons, or whatever exactly the GOP Party has become these days, scoffed at the premise saying it was all a sham and they'd build nukes anyway and would use "our" $400M giveaway to accelerate the outcome. But they purposely negate the fact that if Iran had been caught doing just that under the Paris deal, then US forces would be carpet bombing every single nuke installation..wait for it...right alongside the rest of the world. There would've been 1000 bombers from 20 nations flying overhead. And there'd be easily half of Iran's population working actively against their own regime having tasted the fruit of economic liberalization and now being threatened by a return to life in the slow and hard lane.

Now what do we have? The same exact outcome except it'll just be us by our lonesome doing this shit, and paying for it with magic money that no longer arrives in Treasury due to massive tax cuts, while the rest of the world tells us to fuck off with our latest adventure. And with 100% of Iran's population hating the US with every fiber of their collective being for another generation at least. What we did with this killing was monumentally stupid beyond all comprehension. One man alone was causing all these American and Allied casualties in the region? One guy was running around planting bombs, firing missiles, leading Shia factions against our interests? It's the most childish and idiotic notion ever posited by our government. If it was true then we can expect zero US or ME Allied deaths from here on out. Wait for it..wait for it..I'll be back as soon as we learn that premise is utter bullshit. It won't be long, trust me. Trump is a moron surrounded by morons. One day he wants out of the ME and the next he's getting us right back in for another 10-20 years and trillions of dollars. He's had three years to make up his half-functioning brain and we still don't have anything resembling a plan..just daily and contradictory vomitus from his and his rotating staff of boot-licking sycophants.


A masterful post. Someone was definitely paying attention in their IR elective class.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
TheF15Ace
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:47 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

Actually that is a good analogy, because

a) there already was peace after 2002, until the tsunami hit and the Sri Lanka's government stole aid shipping destined for Tamil regions
b) the LTTE leadership was assassinated a day after they had declared a seize fire. So that may have been the reason for the violence after that.


Best regards
Thomas


You must be referring to a war that took place in an alternate reality. What actually happened was:

a) Eelam War IV started in 2006 about 1 1/2 years after the tsunami hit when the LTTE seized the Mavil Aru reservoir and the government launched military action to take it back.
b) Prabhakaran was not ''assassinated''. He was killed when he tried to escape after being cornered by the army.
 
tu204
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:40 pm

Too many posts that I can reply to so I'll sum it up:

Since the U.S. unilateraly abandoned the treaty with Iran, why should Iran do anything at all?
Iran did not violate the treate that was signed with the U.S. Ok, so Trump thought it was not enough. Well, his questions should be towards who was negotiating it in the firstplace.
Iran followed the rules, the U.S. broke them. The E.U. followed them and were threatend with punushment. Perhaps time the E.U. grow a pair?

Since the U.S. is in Iran's neighbourhod why would Iran comply to any of the US's demands, considering they screwed them on the above?
Why shouldn't Iran have a nuke or two? These are mainly defensive weapons saying "you f^ck with us, we f^ck you!".

At this point in time Iran is right and the U.S. is wrong.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:50 pm

N757ST wrote:
No, I don’t. Listen, Iran is free to do what they want, but the fact that some of you can’t see the problem with them attempting to obtain nuclear weapons is confusing to me. I offered what I thought was a reasonable way to join the world. You disagree, fine then.

They could do a lot of things. I wish they would. What you're advocating is great and all but not grounded in reality.

What do we do when our 100% percent solution isn't working? Dig in until we get 100%?

North Korea could give up their nukes, stop being assholes, etc and get flooded with money, grow their economy by 3000%. Heck, fill in the blank country could "simply" do a lot of things and be way better off

I get what you're saying but I think you're being way too unrealistic and really, it isn't too productive on the world stage. Striving for 100.0% and getting 0% instead of, well any % above 0%

(Of course that doesn't mean we should give up everything for a tiny gain)
 
BN747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:20 pm

In the meantime, the 176 lives that perished yesterday can be traced back to one person for creating this horrific disaster, had the Criminal-in-Chief not also been the Idiot-in-Chief, the Iran Nuclear Deal would still be intact. and those 176 ppl would still be alive. Had he steered clear of antagonizing Iran, they'd still be alive. Had he not listened to the lunkhead who told him to take out Gen. Soliemani, those 176 lives would doing what most of you are doing today - living their lives.
The Criminal-in-Chief bears a great deal of responsibility for creating a war stance position in Iraq that led the disaster that is Ukraine Airlines flight 752 and 176 lives.

Hopefulluy a personal attorney from a victim list trump as a culpable party when the suits start flying. He had a role.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:25 pm

BN747 wrote:
In the meantime, the 176 lives that perished yesterday can be traced back to one person for creating this horrific disaster, had the Criminal-in-Chief not also been the Idiot-in-Chief, the Iran Nuclear Deal would still be intact. and those 176 ppl would still be alive. Had he steered clear of antagonizing Iran, they'd still be alive. Had he not listened to the lunkhead who told him to take out Gen. Soliemani, those 176 lives would doing what most of you are doing today - living their lives.
The Criminal-in-Chief bears a great deal of responsibility for creating a war stance position in Iraq that led the disaster that is Ukraine Airlines flight 752 and 176 lives.

Hopefulluy a personal attorney from a victim list trump as a culpable party when the suits start flying. He had a role.

BN747

I'm surprised Iran isn't spinning it this way. It's appearing more likely they did accidentally shoot it down, why not blame the US for the whole situation? (Which would be a pretty strong argument)

Of course they should also admit their fault in it, they screwed up, but it's not hard to connect the dots to the US' partial fault
 
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casinterest
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:32 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
In the meantime, the 176 lives that perished yesterday can be traced back to one person for creating this horrific disaster, had the Criminal-in-Chief not also been the Idiot-in-Chief, the Iran Nuclear Deal would still be intact. and those 176 ppl would still be alive. Had he steered clear of antagonizing Iran, they'd still be alive. Had he not listened to the lunkhead who told him to take out Gen. Soliemani, those 176 lives would doing what most of you are doing today - living their lives.
The Criminal-in-Chief bears a great deal of responsibility for creating a war stance position in Iraq that led the disaster that is Ukraine Airlines flight 752 and 176 lives.

Hopefulluy a personal attorney from a victim list trump as a culpable party when the suits start flying. He had a role.

BN747

I'm surprised Iran isn't spinning it this way. It's appearing more likely they did accidentally shoot it down, why not blame the US for the whole situation? (Which would be a pretty strong argument)

Of course they should also admit their fault in it, they screwed up, but it's not hard to connect the dots to the US' partial fault


That's a long string of causality, and although i am sure the Ayatollahs will be all over it, the more immediate questions to ask are why didn't the battery commanders figure it out first?

Either way Iran will lose face with a public admittance in this screw up. If the Trump administration has any ounce of intelligence, they will use this to get the Paris accords reinstated with perhaps a few concessions from Iran.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:52 pm

casinterest wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
BN747 wrote:
In the meantime, the 176 lives that perished yesterday can be traced back to one person for creating this horrific disaster, had the Criminal-in-Chief not also been the Idiot-in-Chief, the Iran Nuclear Deal would still be intact. and those 176 ppl would still be alive. Had he steered clear of antagonizing Iran, they'd still be alive. Had he not listened to the lunkhead who told him to take out Gen. Soliemani, those 176 lives would doing what most of you are doing today - living their lives.
The Criminal-in-Chief bears a great deal of responsibility for creating a war stance position in Iraq that led the disaster that is Ukraine Airlines flight 752 and 176 lives.

Hopefulluy a personal attorney from a victim list trump as a culpable party when the suits start flying. He had a role.

BN747

I'm surprised Iran isn't spinning it this way. It's appearing more likely they did accidentally shoot it down, why not blame the US for the whole situation? (Which would be a pretty strong argument)

Of course they should also admit their fault in it, they screwed up, but it's not hard to connect the dots to the US' partial fault


That's a long string of causality, and although i am sure the Ayatollahs will be all over it, the more immediate questions to ask are why didn't the battery commanders figure it out first?

Either way Iran will lose face with a public admittance in this screw up. If the Trump administration has any ounce of intelligence, they will use this to get the Paris accords reinstated with perhaps a few concessions from Iran.

You don't think Iran wouldn't go down that line of reasoning? I don't like the regime at all but I don't think it's very difficult to say that Trump started all this with killing Soleimani.

And the air defense guys... Who says they didn't immediately notify their superiors? Or were scared shitless and kept their mouths shut?

Ultimately, I think there is like a 0% chance they can cover it up if they shot it down. I'd say they'd lose less face if they actually admitted it. Iranian citizens aren't dumb, they're gonna figure out the truth and then know their government is BSing them on top of it all.

Might as well tie some of it back to Trump
 
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casinterest
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:57 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I'm surprised Iran isn't spinning it this way. It's appearing more likely they did accidentally shoot it down, why not blame the US for the whole situation? (Which would be a pretty strong argument)

Of course they should also admit their fault in it, they screwed up, but it's not hard to connect the dots to the US' partial fault


That's a long string of causality, and although i am sure the Ayatollahs will be all over it, the more immediate questions to ask are why didn't the battery commanders figure it out first?

Either way Iran will lose face with a public admittance in this screw up. If the Trump administration has any ounce of intelligence, they will use this to get the Paris accords reinstated with perhaps a few concessions from Iran.

You don't think Iran wouldn't go down that line of reasoning? I don't like the regime at all but I don't think it's very difficult to say that Trump started all this with killing Soleimani.

And the air defense guys... Who says they didn't immediately notify their superiors? Or were scared shitless and kept their mouths shut?

Ultimately, I think there is like a 0% chance they can cover it up if they shot it down. I'd say they'd lose less face if they actually admitted it. Iranian citizens aren't dumb, they're gonna figure out the truth and then know their government is BSing them on top of it all.

Might as well tie some of it back to Trump


In the short term , tying it back to Trump makes a lot of sense, but despite protests from others, there are cooler and measured steps being taken in Iran. Most of all , they want out of the sanctions, so I would expect less of the blame US rhetoric, however, they may make it very targeted at Trump, but I am not sure if they can pull that off.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:25 pm

DeltaMD90 wrote:
Ultimately, I think there is like a 0% chance they can cover it up if they shot it down. I'd say they'd lose less face if they actually admitted it.


:checkmark: and that's why it is important not to speculate on this. if they did it, it will be out there, eventually. We all aircraft about all aircraft that were shot down.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:00 am

N757ST wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
I understand that, I made a list of what Iran should do to get completely rid of the sanctions and normalize relations. The other poster said they did that, which they obviously didn’t.


It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.


The US gives up all sanctions, establishes trade, normalizes relations. Iran would quadruple their economy within years.


Neither the U.S. nor Iran are in a position of power.

How does lifting all sanctions, removing all forces from the Middle East sound?
In return let's say Iran comes back to the table to talk about the whole Nuclear deal?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:48 am

casinterest wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
casinterest wrote:

That's a long string of causality, and although i am sure the Ayatollahs will be all over it, the more immediate questions to ask are why didn't the battery commanders figure it out first?

Either way Iran will lose face with a public admittance in this screw up. If the Trump administration has any ounce of intelligence, they will use this to get the Paris accords reinstated with perhaps a few concessions from Iran.

You don't think Iran wouldn't go down that line of reasoning? I don't like the regime at all but I don't think it's very difficult to say that Trump started all this with killing Soleimani.

And the air defense guys... Who says they didn't immediately notify their superiors? Or were scared shitless and kept their mouths shut?

Ultimately, I think there is like a 0% chance they can cover it up if they shot it down. I'd say they'd lose less face if they actually admitted it. Iranian citizens aren't dumb, they're gonna figure out the truth and then know their government is BSing them on top of it all.

Might as well tie some of it back to Trump


In the short term , tying it back to Trump makes a lot of sense, but despite protests from others, there are cooler and measured steps being taken in Iran. Most of all , they want out of the sanctions, so I would expect less of the blame US rhetoric, however, they may make it very targeted at Trump, but I am not sure if they can pull that off.



Why the speculation? Widely reported that the air defense system used in that area is a russian built air defense system that has automatic tracking and firing mechanisms. Likely launched before they even knew it was happening. Airplane dispatched an hour plus late so it wasnt expected. Just a sad accident. Read the posts in the civil forum...
 
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seb146
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:43 am

tu204 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.


The US gives up all sanctions, establishes trade, normalizes relations. Iran would quadruple their economy within years.


Neither the U.S. nor Iran are in a position of power.

How does lifting all sanctions, removing all forces from the Middle East sound?
In return let's say Iran comes back to the table to talk about the whole Nuclear deal?


Iran will not talk to the United States again until a proven leader is in the White House. They will not negotiate with this current administration.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:20 am

TheF15Ace wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Actually that is a good analogy, because

a) there already was peace after 2002, until the tsunami hit and the Sri Lanka's government stole aid shipping destined for Tamil regions
b) the LTTE leadership was assassinated a day after they had declared a seize fire. So that may have been the reason for the violence after that.


Best regards
Thomas


You must be referring to a war that took place in an alternate reality. What actually happened was:


exactly what i said it did.

a) Eelam War IV started in 2006 about 1 1/2 years after the tsunami hit when the LTTE seized the Mavil Aru reservoir and the government launched military action to take it back.


I didn´t say Eelam War IV started after the government stole aid, i said there was peace until then. The Sri Lankan Airforce was bombing LTTE already two weeks before the reservoir was taken, after the LTTE had blown up a bus full of people earlier that day. And that wasn´t the first violence either.
Just because something isn´t written in the English Wikipedia doesn´t mean it didn´t happen.

b) Prabhakaran was not ''assassinated''. He was killed when he tried to escape after being cornered by the army.


If you blow an ambulance up to kill someone in it that had declared a seize fire the day before you get to pick between "Mudered" or "Assesinated". I chose the appropriate one, him being the leader of a terror organisation. https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/assassinate

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:31 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I'm surprised Iran isn't spinning it this way. It's appearing more likely they did accidentally shoot it down, why not blame the US for the whole situation? (Which would be a pretty strong argument)

Of course they should also admit their fault in it, they screwed up, but it's not hard to connect the dots to the US' partial fault


That's a long string of causality, and although i am sure the Ayatollahs will be all over it, the more immediate questions to ask are why didn't the battery commanders figure it out first?

Either way Iran will lose face with a public admittance in this screw up. If the Trump administration has any ounce of intelligence, they will use this to get the Paris accords reinstated with perhaps a few concessions from Iran.

You don't think Iran wouldn't go down that line of reasoning? I don't like the regime at all but I don't think it's very difficult to say that Trump started all this with killing Soleimani.

And the air defense guys... Who says they didn't immediately notify their superiors? Or were scared shitless and kept their mouths shut?

Ultimately, I think there is like a 0% chance they can cover it up if they shot it down. I'd say they'd lose less face if they actually admitted it. Iranian citizens aren't dumb, they're gonna figure out the truth and then know their government is BSing them on top of it all.

Might as well tie some of it back to Trump


:checkmark:
You may be able to claim that some lower echelon military tried suppressing the information and lied to the higher ups, but you can´t hide a shutdown, and you can´t do it for long in any case.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:05 am

N757ST wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

BS. Everyone knows you don't respect sovereign nations airspace with your drones. The Iranians don't have a massive collection of your drones without reason.


And even the DoD seems to disagree...

Image

Best regards
Thomas



Umm, your graphic shows it was never in Iraninan airspace.


Well, that is up for debate. Maybe, maybe not. What it definitely shows is that you lied when you claimed it was 5.5 miles away

dtw2hyd wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
I haven't seen any "empathy" anywhere whatsoever.... what did I miss?

Best regards
Thomas


The human cost is different from one's perspective, take America's war on terrorism for example

From my side
5000 soldier lives
20000 wounded warriors

For someone from ME
Few thousand soldiers
Million+ civilian lives lost (mostly not counted)
3-5 Million refugees

Are you still suggesting prolonged wars (while saving leaders) are better option taking out leaders with minimum civilian causalities?


Well, History pretty clearly shows it doesn´t work that way, so i am not sure why i should take that serious.
Stopping to wage war would be a splendid idea....... of course the needed steps: Issue excuses on both sides, pay reparation to Iran, consistently apply treaties to different countries and such..

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

It takes compromises from both sides to make a deal. You can't just put out a list of one-sided demands and expect them to follow it.



He thinks the US runs Iran. Has avoided the topic of sovereignty completely in the current discussion.


No, I don’t. Listen, Iran is free to do what they want, but the fact that some of you can’t see the problem with them attempting to obtain nuclear weapons is confusing to me. I offered what I thought was a reasonable way to join the world. You disagree, fine then. .


Well, if Iran is free to do what it wants (glad you grand a sovereign nation the right to be sovereign!!), there there is no problem if they get nukes. But generally, yes, you need to give something to get something, and since there was a lot of taking, there needs to be lots of giving.

But aside of "They want to wipe Israel of the face of the planet", which is nonsense since, if that was the goal, they could just grind a few tons of Uranium et al to dust and lob that over to Israel, with its missile defense system doing the distribution, making it uninhabitable for a long, long time. Why are you so scared of Iranian nukes any more those of India, China or Pakistan? India and China are probably the only two places that can absorb a nuclear attack and still have citizens to govern left even after a large scale attack. Iran? Not so much.

I think no country should have nukes, and the US (and Russia, China, France, UK) have signed treaties to ultimately get rid of them, so that is good. Considering they signed that 50 years ago i wonder when we should start treating that as treaty violation.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
TheF15Ace
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:18 am

tommy1808 wrote:
TheF15Ace wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Actually that is a good analogy, because

a) there already was peace after 2002, until the tsunami hit and the Sri Lanka's government stole aid shipping destined for Tamil regions
b) the LTTE leadership was assassinated a day after they had declared a seize fire. So that may have been the reason for the violence after that.


Best regards
Thomas


You must be referring to a war that took place in an alternate reality. What actually happened was:


exactly what i said it did.

a) Eelam War IV started in 2006 about 1 1/2 years after the tsunami hit when the LTTE seized the Mavil Aru reservoir and the government launched military action to take it back.


I didn´t say Eelam War IV started after the government stole aid, i said there was peace until then. The Sri Lankan Airforce was bombing LTTE already two weeks before the reservoir was taken, after the LTTE had blown up a bus full of people earlier that day. And that wasn´t the first violence either.
Just because something isn´t written in the English Wikipedia doesn´t mean it didn´t happen.

b) Prabhakaran was not ''assassinated''. He was killed when he tried to escape after being cornered by the army.


If you blow an ambulance up to kill someone in it that had declared a seize fire the day before you get to pick between "Mudered" or "Assesinated". I chose the appropriate one, him being the leader of a terror organisation. https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/assassinate

Best regards
Thomas


Uh yeah.....no. Their were still pockets of resistance and fighting was ongoing with terrorist still being swept up and killed. What do you think was supposed to happen? That he can declare a seize fire and just walk away? Could have surrendered but he didn't. It's not like he would ever try and hide abroad and try to keep the Eelam dream alive. He got blown up in an active war zone. For enemy combatants in that situation it's surrender immediately or get killed. If you want to tag that as an assassination, I guess in your world view the number of wars/battles/military action is low but we have had an unusual amount of ''mass assassinations''

BTW I don't really need Wikipedia except perhaps to confirm a date before posting seeing as I was living in Colombo at the time. There are some things which one never forgets.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:26 am

I was reading some Canadian threads about the crash on Reddit earlier today. Many Canadians on that thread were sharply divided over how much Trump had to do with creating the conditions for this shootdown to happen. Some said it was completely Trump's fault, some said it was completely Iran's fault. Others, including my view, is that it was a combination of gross irresponsibility from both the actions of Iran and the US. One Canadian on that Reddit thread proposed that compensation should be 50/50 from Iran and the US. I wonder if Canada will go this route in seeking compensation for the victims.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:52 am

sonicruiser wrote:
I was reading some Canadian threads about the crash on Reddit earlier today. Many Canadians on that thread were sharply divided over how much Trump had to do with creating the conditions for this shootdown to happen. Some said it was completely Trump's fault, some said it was completely Iran's fault. Others, including my view, is that it was a combination of gross irresponsibility from both the actions of Iran and the US. One Canadian on that Reddit thread proposed that compensation should be 50/50 from Iran and the US. I wonder if Canada will go this route in seeking compensation for the victims.


I think that would be logical. In a moral and just world, leaders from both countries would go to Canada, genuinely apologize to the families, and hold bilateral talks shortly thereafter, to show that these folks haven’t had their lives cut short in vain.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:40 am

Aaron747 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
I was reading some Canadian threads about the crash on Reddit earlier today. Many Canadians on that thread were sharply divided over how much Trump had to do with creating the conditions for this shootdown to happen. Some said it was completely Trump's fault, some said it was completely Iran's fault. Others, including my view, is that it was a combination of gross irresponsibility from both the actions of Iran and the US. One Canadian on that Reddit thread proposed that compensation should be 50/50 from Iran and the US. I wonder if Canada will go this route in seeking compensation for the victims.


I think that would be logical. In a moral and just world, leaders from both countries would go to Canada, genuinely apologize to the families, and hold bilateral talks shortly thereafter, to show that these folks haven’t had their lives cut short in vain.

Hmmm, usually I am rather critical about Trump and his advisors as you can see from some comments further above (... I hate how the USA is treating us in case of Nordstream 2...). But in this case I really don’t see how one could blame Trump or the US-American side. He refrained from striking back but the Iranians shot that aircraft down, maybe expecting an attack but mainly because of stupidity or incompetence.

Even before we learned from the shooting-down of the Ukrainian 737 my personal conclusion was that Trump is the winner of this episode (yes, domestically, as Thomas noted). Now the Iranian side looks even weaker: 50 casualties during the funeral of the general and then shooting down an aircraft with their own people or people with Iranian roots.
 
sonicruiser
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:29 am

N14AZ wrote:
But in this case I really don’t see how one could blame Trump or the US-American side. He refrained from striking back but the Iranians shot that aircraft down, maybe expecting an attack but mainly because of stupidity or incompetence.


How would Iran have known he wasn't going to strike back? Threatening cultural sites may have significantly increased the importance of shooting down any enemy aircraft than if the US had only threatened military sites.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

You can sanction people, but you can't sanction style
 
agill
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:35 am

sonicruiser wrote:
I was reading some Canadian threads about the crash on Reddit earlier today. Many Canadians on that thread were sharply divided over how much Trump had to do with creating the conditions for this shootdown to happen. Some said it was completely Trump's fault, some said it was completely Iran's fault. Others, including my view, is that it was a combination of gross irresponsibility from both the actions of Iran and the US. One Canadian on that Reddit thread proposed that compensation should be 50/50 from Iran and the US. I wonder if Canada will go this route in seeking compensation for the victims.


Well no fan of Trump, but if the Iranians shoot down an airliner the blame is on them. Just as Iran Air Flight 655 was the fault of the Americans.
 
BN747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:36 am

N14AZ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
I was reading some Canadian threads about the crash on Reddit earlier today. Many Canadians on that thread were sharply divided over how much Trump had to do with creating the conditions for this shootdown to happen. Some said it was completely Trump's fault, some said it was completely Iran's fault. Others, including my view, is that it was a combination of gross irresponsibility from both the actions of Iran and the US. One Canadian on that Reddit thread proposed that compensation should be 50/50 from Iran and the US. I wonder if Canada will go this route in seeking compensation for the victims.


I think that would be logical. In a moral and just world, leaders from both countries would go to Canada, genuinely apologize to the families, and hold bilateral talks shortly thereafter, to show that these folks haven’t had their lives cut short in vain.

Hmmm, usually I am rather critical about Trump and his advisors as you can see from some comments further above (... I hate how the USA is treating us in case of Nordstream 2...). But in this case I really don’t see how one could blame Trump or the US-American side. He refrained from striking back ....


When he should have never pulled that 'quick poll number boost' bonehead stunt in the 1st place...his actions confirmed his susceptibility in the role of 'handing a loaded gun to child' scenario.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson

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