User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8727
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:34 am

N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

A willingness to supply extremest groups and a wonton desire to build a nuclear weapon. Oh what a fantastic combination.

I'm absolutely no fan of their government... They've supported terror, led to American deaths, yadaya. And I think it's foolish to think they simply want "nuclear power" and no nuke.

But come on, they are not suicidal. They don't want to be a huge glass parking lot. I think way too many people make Iran to be a boogyman, and it's this thinking that leads us to another crappy Iraq war.

Do I want them to have nukes? Absolutely not. Should be dangle carrots in front of them or use sanctions to prevent them? Absolutely. But it's hard to 100% stop them short of a war, another war no one wants. I don't think the decades of war and trillion dollars is worth it, they aren't gonna launch a nuke after finishing it, and they know the world isn't stupid enough to be like "omg how did Hezbollah blow up Israel? Wonder who did it? Gee." Any nuke they make that is used IS them using it, and then using it = no mo Iran


They are mining ships, destroying drones, funding terrorist factions that attack our interests, and then attack our embassy. I have no idea what they want, except they do all the above and are developing nuclear weapons. At least to me this doesn’t seem like an all that stable situation. Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.

I don't know, I guess I don't subscribe to slippery slope arguments. I can see a HUGE difference between those low level (yes, low level) trolly acts of violence and using nukes offensively. And I don't think them doing some things means they'll ultimately go to the far-most extreme

And btw, I agree. They should absolutely dismantle their crap and knock it off with their sketchy nuclear ambitions. Their leadership is stupid, they are needlessly trolly. That said, they are not suicidal.

As someone else said, this is the same conversation we were having in 2002! I am almost positive everyone making arguments supporting hostilities and aggressive action would be doing the same in 2002, regardless of how they feel about the Iraq war now. It baffles my mind
Last edited by DeltaMD90 on Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12272
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:37 am

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
They can’t - they are stuck in a box with no outlet.


If only there was some kind of agreement to monitor Iran and prevent them from having Nukes.................................... :duck: :banghead:


Well, that agreement wasn’t worth much when it took all of a week for them to restart production. I do think a real agreement should be reached, but it should involve the complete dismantling of the ability of Iran to produce a nuclear weapon.


That's never going to happen. I expect Iran to test its first bomb in this decade. Last time I said this my post was deleted, I don't know why.

Iran signed a deal, followed up with it, the US didn't, then reneged on it. There will be no new deal until Iran has the bomb and it all becomes moot.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3796
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:37 am

N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

A willingness to supply extremest groups and a wonton desire to build a nuclear weapon. Oh what a fantastic combination.

I'm absolutely no fan of their government... They've supported terror, led to American deaths, yadaya. And I think it's foolish to think they simply want "nuclear power" and no nuke.

But come on, they are not suicidal. They don't want to be a huge glass parking lot. I think way too many people make Iran to be a boogyman, and it's this thinking that leads us to another crappy Iraq war.

Do I want them to have nukes? Absolutely not. Should be dangle carrots in front of them or use sanctions to prevent them? Absolutely. But it's hard to 100% stop them short of a war, another war no one wants. I don't think the decades of war and trillion dollars is worth it, they aren't gonna launch a nuke after finishing it, and they know the world isn't stupid enough to be like "omg how did Hezbollah blow up Israel? Wonder who did it? Gee." Any nuke they make that is used IS them using it, and then using it = no mo Iran


They are mining ships, destroying drones, funding terrorist factions that attack our interests, and then attack our embassy. I have no idea what they want, except they do all the above and are developing nuclear weapons. At least to me this doesn’t seem like an all that stable situation. Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.
The USA could offer the moon to Iran, and they would probably not accept it.
The USA has a pretty lousy track record when it comes to living up to deals made with Iran. Or to be fair, with most of the ME, except for Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Why would Iran believe any promises made by the USA.
Attamottamotta!
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:41 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I'm absolutely no fan of their government... They've supported terror, led to American deaths, yadaya. And I think it's foolish to think they simply want "nuclear power" and no nuke.

But come on, they are not suicidal. They don't want to be a huge glass parking lot. I think way too many people make Iran to be a boogyman, and it's this thinking that leads us to another crappy Iraq war.

Do I want them to have nukes? Absolutely not. Should be dangle carrots in front of them or use sanctions to prevent them? Absolutely. But it's hard to 100% stop them short of a war, another war no one wants. I don't think the decades of war and trillion dollars is worth it, they aren't gonna launch a nuke after finishing it, and they know the world isn't stupid enough to be like "omg how did Hezbollah blow up Israel? Wonder who did it? Gee." Any nuke they make that is used IS them using it, and then using it = no mo Iran


They are mining ships, destroying drones, funding terrorist factions that attack our interests, and then attack our embassy. I have no idea what they want, except they do all the above and are developing nuclear weapons. At least to me this doesn’t seem like an all that stable situation. Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.

I don't know, I guess I don't subscribe to slippery slope arguments. I can see a HUGE difference between those low level (yes, low level) trolly acts of violence and using nukes offensively. And I don't think them doing some things means they'll ultimately go to the far-most extreme

And btw, I agree. They should absolutely dismantle their crap and knock it off with their sketchy nuclear ambitions. Their leadership is stupid, they are needlessly trolly. That said, they are not suicidal.

As someone else said, this is the same conversation we were having in 2002! I am almost positive everyone making arguments supporting hostilities and aggressive action would be doing the same in 2002, regardless of how they feel about the Iraq war now. It baffles my mind


So then after all this bluster is done, that’s exactly what the US government and world leaders should offer. Completely and unilaterally dismantle your nuclear program. Allow a third party country to supply your nuclear plants and allow a third party to dispose of waste nuclear material. Discontinue funding terrorist networks worldwide. Take a “more” neutral position to Israel. In return the US retracts all sanctions, and encourages allies to do that same, establish a new US embassy and ambassador to Iran in Tehran. This isn’t hard. I know Trump might not be the president to do it, but this is the easy solution.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12272
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:41 am

LMP737 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
The Iranian response was quite restrained and not IMO designed to kill anyone, it was mainly for domestic consumption, to show the Iranian public that they were doing something, they cited UN article 51 as the reason for the reprisal. However I don't believe this is the end of it, Persians like the Chinese have very long memories, they will play the waiting game, as they say revenge is a dish best served cold.


Not having casualties was just plain dumb luck IMHO. I don't think the Iranians have the targeting or intel capabilities to be able to pick buildings out for a conventionally armed ballistic missile based on whether or not there are people in them,


Apparently Iran phoned Iraq to GTFO before launching the missiles, so there was no surprise.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21468
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:44 am

N757ST wrote:
seb146 wrote:
N757ST wrote:


Well, that agreement wasn’t worth much when it took all of a week for them to restart production. I do think a real agreement should be reached, but it should involve the complete dismantling of the ability of Iran to produce a nuclear weapon.


As per the agreement, the international nuclear inspectors were allowed entry into every nuclear site. They had sites operating for power, which was the agreement. I am not sure what you are getting at. The world, including Iran, agreed to what they were doing. Now, there is no agreement. Do you honestly think Iran will want to negotiate with the current American administration? I'll give you a hint on the answer: two letters, starts with "n" and ends with "o"....



Cool, they got to inspect the sites. They claimed they were enriching uranium for power use. A lot of people had a problem with this. This could have been solved by a unilateral agreement to buy fuel rods from a foreign country. But the status quo continued and they didn’t progress their program. Now they have, and they want a bomb. Oh, and they’re happy to work with proxies around the world, fantastic.

Of note, none of this is against the Iran PEOPLE, who I’ve met and dealt with and are generally fantastic. They are more secular then the majority of the ME, but their religious government is certainly an issue.


Yet, INTERNATIONAL inspectors saw nothing wrong with the way they were using uranium for nuclear power and not nuclear weapons. It was not Iranian inspectors writing their own reports. It was an INTERNATIONAL coalition of inspectors who found nothing wrong.

Until the assassination of Soleimani, the people of Iran wanted their government changed. They were protesting and being jailed for protesting. Now, they are less concerned with changing their government and more concerned with war against us.

We would easily lose. Our forces are broken. After having served three and four tours and with troops deployed all across the world, we would lose. I am sick of this chanting for war from Republicans. They say they love the troops but keep sending these broken men and women out and bring them back in body bags. It is sick and needs to stop. There was no credible threat. Soleimani was not a threat.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:45 am

petertenthije wrote:
N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I'm absolutely no fan of their government... They've supported terror, led to American deaths, yadaya. And I think it's foolish to think they simply want "nuclear power" and no nuke.

But come on, they are not suicidal. They don't want to be a huge glass parking lot. I think way too many people make Iran to be a boogyman, and it's this thinking that leads us to another crappy Iraq war.

Do I want them to have nukes? Absolutely not. Should be dangle carrots in front of them or use sanctions to prevent them? Absolutely. But it's hard to 100% stop them short of a war, another war no one wants. I don't think the decades of war and trillion dollars is worth it, they aren't gonna launch a nuke after finishing it, and they know the world isn't stupid enough to be like "omg how did Hezbollah blow up Israel? Wonder who did it? Gee." Any nuke they make that is used IS them using it, and then using it = no mo Iran


They are mining ships, destroying drones, funding terrorist factions that attack our interests, and then attack our embassy. I have no idea what they want, except they do all the above and are developing nuclear weapons. At least to me this doesn’t seem like an all that stable situation. Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.
The USA could offer the moon to Iran, and they would probably not accept it.
The USA has a pretty lousy track record when it comes to living up to deals made with Iran. Or to be fair, with most of the ME, except for Israel and Saudi Arabia.

Why would Iran believe any promises made by the USA.



And Iran has attack US interests frequently in recent times. The US has no reason to believe Iran, and vis versa. Maybe it’ll take a leap of faith, but if Iran dismantled their Nuclear program entirely the US wouldn’t have much of a leg to stand on.
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:51 am

seb146 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
seb146 wrote:

As per the agreement, the international nuclear inspectors were allowed entry into every nuclear site. They had sites operating for power, which was the agreement. I am not sure what you are getting at. The world, including Iran, agreed to what they were doing. Now, there is no agreement. Do you honestly think Iran will want to negotiate with the current American administration? I'll give you a hint on the answer: two letters, starts with "n" and ends with "o"....



Cool, they got to inspect the sites. They claimed they were enriching uranium for power use. A lot of people had a problem with this. This could have been solved by a unilateral agreement to buy fuel rods from a foreign country. But the status quo continued and they didn’t progress their program. Now they have, and they want a bomb. Oh, and they’re happy to work with proxies around the world, fantastic.

Of note, none of this is against the Iran PEOPLE, who I’ve met and dealt with and are generally fantastic. They are more secular then the majority of the ME, but their religious government is certainly an issue.


Yet, INTERNATIONAL inspectors saw nothing wrong with the way they were using uranium for nuclear power and not nuclear weapons. It was not Iranian inspectors writing their own reports. It was an INTERNATIONAL coalition of inspectors who found nothing wrong.

Until the assassination of Soleimani, the people of Iran wanted their government changed. They were protesting and being jailed for protesting. Now, they are less concerned with changing their government and more concerned with war against us.

We would easily lose. Our forces are broken. After having served three and four tours and with troops deployed all across the world, we would lose. I am sick of this chanting for war from Republicans. They say they love the troops but keep sending these broken men and women out and bring them back in body bags. It is sick and needs to stop. There was no credible threat. Soleimani was not a threat.


At that moment they stopped further enrichment toward a bomb. Now they’ve announced they will continue enrichment which will lead to a bomb. If their goal wasn’t the bomb then why continue to pursue that path. Common man, you can’t tell me with a straight face that prior to and after the agreement their goal wasn’t a bomb. The agreement did too little to dismantle their capabilities to continue development of the bomb, which is entirely evident by switching gears within a week and all but announcing to the world were back on track for developing the bomb.
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:56 am

seb146 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
seb146 wrote:

As per the agreement, the international nuclear inspectors were allowed entry into every nuclear site. They had sites operating for power, which was the agreement. I am not sure what you are getting at. The world, including Iran, agreed to what they were doing. Now, there is no agreement. Do you honestly think Iran will want to negotiate with the current American administration? I'll give you a hint on the answer: two letters, starts with "n" and ends with "o"....



Cool, they got to inspect the sites. They claimed they were enriching uranium for power use. A lot of people had a problem with this. This could have been solved by a unilateral agreement to buy fuel rods from a foreign country. But the status quo continued and they didn’t progress their program. Now they have, and they want a bomb. Oh, and they’re happy to work with proxies around the world, fantastic.

Of note, none of this is against the Iran PEOPLE, who I’ve met and dealt with and are generally fantastic. They are more secular then the majority of the ME, but their religious government is certainly an issue.



We would easily lose. Our forces are broken. After having served three and four tours and with troops deployed all across the world, we would lose. I am sick of this chanting for war from Republicans. They say they love the troops but keep sending these broken men and women out and bring them back in body bags. It is sick and needs to stop. There was no credible threat. Soleimani was not a threat.


No credible threat? Like attacking our embassy, bombing ships, attacking drones. I don’t want war. I don’t. But this general was responsible for all of that, and until the attack on him, the US has been sitting with their hands under their butts doing nothing. The embassy attack caused them to make a move, not necessarily one I agree with, but certainly it wasn’t unprovoked.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8727
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:58 am

N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

They are mining ships, destroying drones, funding terrorist factions that attack our interests, and then attack our embassy. I have no idea what they want, except they do all the above and are developing nuclear weapons. At least to me this doesn’t seem like an all that stable situation. Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.

I don't know, I guess I don't subscribe to slippery slope arguments. I can see a HUGE difference between those low level (yes, low level) trolly acts of violence and using nukes offensively. And I don't think them doing some things means they'll ultimately go to the far-most extreme

And btw, I agree. They should absolutely dismantle their crap and knock it off with their sketchy nuclear ambitions. Their leadership is stupid, they are needlessly trolly. That said, they are not suicidal.

As someone else said, this is the same conversation we were having in 2002! I am almost positive everyone making arguments supporting hostilities and aggressive action would be doing the same in 2002, regardless of how they feel about the Iraq war now. It baffles my mind


So then after all this bluster is done, that’s exactly what the US government and world leaders should offer. Completely and unilaterally dismantle your nuclear program. Allow a third party country to supply your nuclear plants and allow a third party to dispose of waste nuclear material. Discontinue funding terrorist networks worldwide. Take a “more” neutral position to Israel. In return the US retracts all sanctions, and encourages allies to do that same, establish a new US embassy and ambassador to Iran in Tehran. This isn’t hard. I know Trump might not be the president to do it, but this is the easy solution.

I'm sure that's what we all strived for in the original deal but couldn't get. If it was hard back then it'll probably be impossible now. Even if a president and Congress friendly to Iran gets elected in 2020, they trust us even less by a large margin after we bailed out of the Iran Nuclear Deal

It was not a perfect solution. Not at all. Yeah yeah inspectors blah blah, I hear libs say. They could skirt things and they could quickly restart, which they seem to be doing. Due to polarization, it was either 0% effective or 100% effective, but sadly most things in life aren't absolutely certain.

But it was a single step in a long, long road to building trust. It somewhat slowed and curbed their progress, it brought much to light. It WAS better than no deal at all, not as effective as the 100% sure solution, war, but we can't invade every bad guy in the world
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:05 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I don't know, I guess I don't subscribe to slippery slope arguments. I can see a HUGE difference between those low level (yes, low level) trolly acts of violence and using nukes offensively. And I don't think them doing some things means they'll ultimately go to the far-most extreme

And btw, I agree. They should absolutely dismantle their crap and knock it off with their sketchy nuclear ambitions. Their leadership is stupid, they are needlessly trolly. That said, they are not suicidal.

As someone else said, this is the same conversation we were having in 2002! I am almost positive everyone making arguments supporting hostilities and aggressive action would be doing the same in 2002, regardless of how they feel about the Iraq war now. It baffles my mind


So then after all this bluster is done, that’s exactly what the US government and world leaders should offer. Completely and unilaterally dismantle your nuclear program. Allow a third party country to supply your nuclear plants and allow a third party to dispose of waste nuclear material. Discontinue funding terrorist networks worldwide. Take a “more” neutral position to Israel. In return the US retracts all sanctions, and encourages allies to do that same, establish a new US embassy and ambassador to Iran in Tehran. This isn’t hard. I know Trump might not be the president to do it, but this is the easy solution.

I'm sure that's what we all strived for in the original deal but couldn't get. If it was hard back then it'll probably be impossible now. Even if a president and Congress friendly to Iran gets elected in 2020, they trust us even less by a large margin after we bailed out of the Iran Nuclear Deal

It was not a perfect solution. Not at all. Yeah yeah inspectors blah blah, I hear libs say. They could skirt things and they could quickly restart, which they seem to be doing. Due to polarization, it was either 0% effective or 100% effective, but sadly most things in life aren't absolutely certain.

But it was a single step in a long, long road to building trust. It somewhat slowed and curbed their progress, it brought much to light. It WAS better than no deal at all, not as effective as the 100% sure solution, war, but we can't invade every bad guy in the world


That’s the path man. Does Iran want to part of a global community or not? It’s not hard. Dismantle your nuclear capabilities, agree to stop funding terrorists, and we go ahead and normalize everything. If lawmakers disagree then use the polls. My guess is the vast majority of Americans and the world see that as a better path then tit tat attacks, flare ups, terrorism networks, and crippling sanctions. If trump is smart that’s exactly what he offers, and even the most hardened opponents would have trouble opposing it.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12272
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:09 am

N757ST wrote:
Ah, to quote frozen... let it go, let it go. They attack us just let it go because we are more civilized. I don’t agree with siding with the saudis, and think the average Iranian is above board compared to the rest of the region, but locals weren’t attacking our embassy, locals didn’t shoot our drone, and locals didn’t attack our allied ships. The government of Iran did. All these attacks perpetrated by this one general.


You've now said this 4 or 5 times, but Iran didn't attack the US embassy, it was indeed locals attacking the embassy. Sure Iran is no stranger to it, but nevertheless, that's your problem right there : millions or Iraqi people, average people, not all crazed loons or paid for by Iran, don't want the US in their country.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12272
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:10 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Why do lefties keep on dragging Israel into the discussion using all kinds of lunatic conspiracy theories? Obsession?


I don't think Israel was involved in this latest string of events, however Israel is dictating the position of many US politicians regarding Iran, including Trump. Bibi called for the Iran deal to be dropped, and Trump did it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9957
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:15 am

N757ST wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
N757ST wrote:


Well, that agreement wasn’t worth much when it took all of a week for them to restart production. I do think a real agreement should be reached, but it should involve the complete dismantling of the ability of Iran to produce a nuclear weapon.



You obviously never read, nor understood the nuclear agreement. I haven’t met a Trump supporter yet that has read or understood it either. Tragic.



Oh I understood it. I’m not a trumpet, actually a Bloomberg man but whatever. The fact remains a week after this altercation they are back to building a bomb, proof that the agreement wasn’t worth a damn. The agreement did nothing to roll back the program, it just kept it status quo which would give Iran unlimited potential going forward to put their foot on our neck.


Announcing that they are starting enrichment does not mean it has fully begun. They have the engineers and knowledge to do it though, and this was what the Paris agreement was in place to stop. Trump took the US out of the agreement , and has not done anything to safeguard the region. By all accounts Trump is making things worse. The Neocons love it as this will in theory sell more weapons, but right now it looks like Russia will be the one cashing in.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:17 am

Aesma wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Ah, to quote frozen... let it go, let it go. They attack us just let it go because we are more civilized. I don’t agree with siding with the saudis, and think the average Iranian is above board compared to the rest of the region, but locals weren’t attacking our embassy, locals didn’t shoot our drone, and locals didn’t attack our allied ships. The government of Iran did. All these attacks perpetrated by this one general.


You've now said this 4 or 5 times, but Iran didn't attack the US embassy, it was indeed locals attacking the embassy. Sure Iran is no stranger to it, but nevertheless, that's your problem right there : millions or Iraqi people, average people, not all crazed loons or paid for by Iran, don't want the US in their country.


It was an Iran back backed attack, that’s not really disputed.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... k.amp.html
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:22 am

casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:


You obviously never read, nor understood the nuclear agreement. I haven’t met a Trump supporter yet that has read or understood it either. Tragic.



Oh I understood it. I’m not a trumpet, actually a Bloomberg man but whatever. The fact remains a week after this altercation they are back to building a bomb, proof that the agreement wasn’t worth a damn. The agreement did nothing to roll back the program, it just kept it status quo which would give Iran unlimited potential going forward to put their foot on our neck.


Announcing that they are starting enrichment does not mean it has fully begun. They have the engineers and knowledge to do it though, and this was what the Paris agreement was in place to stop. Trump took the US out of the agreement , and has not done anything to safeguard the region. By all accounts Trump is making things worse. The Neocons love it as this will in theory sell more weapons, but right now it looks like Russia will be the one cashing in.


So they are just going to enrich for the hell of it? No man, they are again pursuing a bomb. Any long term agreement between our countries which strives to normalize relations should have one single red line, dismantle your capabilities to build a weapon, even if it means we or another country have to provide you nuclear material needed to make peaceful power production.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9957
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:25 am

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:


Oh I understood it. I’m not a trumpet, actually a Bloomberg man but whatever. The fact remains a week after this altercation they are back to building a bomb, proof that the agreement wasn’t worth a damn. The agreement did nothing to roll back the program, it just kept it status quo which would give Iran unlimited potential going forward to put their foot on our neck.


Announcing that they are starting enrichment does not mean it has fully begun. They have the engineers and knowledge to do it though, and this was what the Paris agreement was in place to stop. Trump took the US out of the agreement , and has not done anything to safeguard the region. By all accounts Trump is making things worse. The Neocons love it as this will in theory sell more weapons, but right now it looks like Russia will be the one cashing in.


So they are just going to enrich for the hell of it? No man, they are again pursuing a bomb. Any long term agreement between our countries which strives to normalize relations should have one single red line, dismantle your capabilities to build a weapon, even if it means we or another country have to provide you nuclear material needed to make peaceful power production.


And what the hell do you think was in the Paris Agreement that Trump walked away from? The US cannot take over sovereign means of peaceful power production. Especially since we seem to walk away at moments notice due to whatever Trump feels like doing.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:31 am

casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:

Announcing that they are starting enrichment does not mean it has fully begun. They have the engineers and knowledge to do it though, and this was what the Paris agreement was in place to stop. Trump took the US out of the agreement , and has not done anything to safeguard the region. By all accounts Trump is making things worse. The Neocons love it as this will in theory sell more weapons, but right now it looks like Russia will be the one cashing in.


So they are just going to enrich for the hell of it? No man, they are again pursuing a bomb. Any long term agreement between our countries which strives to normalize relations should have one single red line, dismantle your capabilities to build a weapon, even if it means we or another country have to provide you nuclear material needed to make peaceful power production.


And what the hell do you think was in the Paris Agreement that Trump walked away from? The US cannot take over sovereign means of peaceful power production. Especially since we seem to walk away at moments notice due to whatever Trump feels like doing.


They continue to have the capability to enrich uranium in pursuit or a weapon. Do you really, really think their enrichment activity is solely related to peace time applications?
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9957
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:36 am

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:

So they are just going to enrich for the hell of it? No man, they are again pursuing a bomb. Any long term agreement between our countries which strives to normalize relations should have one single red line, dismantle your capabilities to build a weapon, even if it means we or another country have to provide you nuclear material needed to make peaceful power production.


And what the hell do you think was in the Paris Agreement that Trump walked away from? The US cannot take over sovereign means of peaceful power production. Especially since we seem to walk away at moments notice due to whatever Trump feels like doing.


They continue to have the capability to enrich uranium in pursuit or a weapon. Do you really, really think their enrichment activity is solely related to peace time applications?


What does my thoughts on enriching Uranium have to do with anything? Trump walked away from the agreement that was keeping them from doing it. It means the US can't keep it's word. That means we lost the Trust of Iran and most other countries.
Iran has the right to do what they want within their sovereign borders if we can't even follow agreements that were made.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8727
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:39 am

N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

So then after all this bluster is done, that’s exactly what the US government and world leaders should offer. Completely and unilaterally dismantle your nuclear program. Allow a third party country to supply your nuclear plants and allow a third party to dispose of waste nuclear material. Discontinue funding terrorist networks worldwide. Take a “more” neutral position to Israel. In return the US retracts all sanctions, and encourages allies to do that same, establish a new US embassy and ambassador to Iran in Tehran. This isn’t hard. I know Trump might not be the president to do it, but this is the easy solution.

I'm sure that's what we all strived for in the original deal but couldn't get. If it was hard back then it'll probably be impossible now. Even if a president and Congress friendly to Iran gets elected in 2020, they trust us even less by a large margin after we bailed out of the Iran Nuclear Deal

It was not a perfect solution. Not at all. Yeah yeah inspectors blah blah, I hear libs say. They could skirt things and they could quickly restart, which they seem to be doing. Due to polarization, it was either 0% effective or 100% effective, but sadly most things in life aren't absolutely certain.

But it was a single step in a long, long road to building trust. It somewhat slowed and curbed their progress, it brought much to light. It WAS better than no deal at all, not as effective as the 100% sure solution, war, but we can't invade every bad guy in the world


That’s the path man. Does Iran want to part of a global community or not? It’s not hard. Dismantle your nuclear capabilities, agree to stop funding terrorists, and we go ahead and normalize everything. If lawmakers disagree then use the polls. My guess is the vast majority of Americans and the world see that as a better path then tit tat attacks, flare ups, terrorism networks, and crippling sanctions. If trump is smart that’s exactly what he offers, and even the most hardened opponents would have trouble opposing it.

You're making it sound so simple... I wish it was that simple. It's them doing 100% of what we want for 100% of what they want. But what to do when they won't go with 100%? Demanding 100% is super unrealistic and can't just be solved with "being tough, more sanctions, blah blah".

So we get X% of the way and give up Y%. Hopefully X and Y are roughly equal.

Sound familiar? It was the nuclear deal.

It wasn't 100% dismantling and we didn't give them 100%. I wish many liberals would be a bit more honest and stop pretending like it was more perfect than it was... No, it was a step in a certain direction. Maybe you can argue we gave up too much, but expecting an all or nothing deal is completely unrealistic.

I'm sort of confused... You and I are saying a lot of the same but the conclusions you are reaching are vastly different than mine. I think, honestly, you're expecting way too much way too quickly. I also think you overestimate their craziness... They're hostile, they're dicks, but they aren't suicidal. Any nuke they get will be a bargaining chip I'd rather they not have but they aren't gonna use it nor "sneakily" give it to a proxy. If ANY nuke goes off it doesn't matter how far removed from Iran they were, Iran will become the world's biggest mirror and they know that
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:41 am

casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:

And what the hell do you think was in the Paris Agreement that Trump walked away from? The US cannot take over sovereign means of peaceful power production. Especially since we seem to walk away at moments notice due to whatever Trump feels like doing.


They continue to have the capability to enrich uranium in pursuit or a weapon. Do you really, really think their enrichment activity is solely related to peace time applications?


What does my thoughts on enriching Uranium have to do with anything? Trump walked away from the agreement that was keeping them from doing it. It means the US can't keep it's word. That means we lost the Trust of Iran and most other countries.
Iran has the right to do what they want within their sovereign borders if we can't even follow agreements that were made.


No, they don’t. They actively support terrorist networks, and are pursuing nuclear weapons. That’s obviously of interest to us. Trump walked away because nothing in the agreement actively was leading towards a denuclearization of Iran. It was a stall agreement, we won’t go further as long as you lift sanctions. It didn’t do anything to shut down Iran’s nuclear ambitions, on delay them to be immediately brought back up as soon as they wanted.
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9957
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:45 am

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:

They continue to have the capability to enrich uranium in pursuit or a weapon. Do you really, really think their enrichment activity is solely related to peace time applications?


What does my thoughts on enriching Uranium have to do with anything? Trump walked away from the agreement that was keeping them from doing it. It means the US can't keep it's word. That means we lost the Trust of Iran and most other countries.
Iran has the right to do what they want within their sovereign borders if we can't even follow agreements that were made.


No, they don’t. They actively support terrorist networks, and are pursuing nuclear weapons. That’s obviously of interest to us. Trump walked away because nothing in the agreement actively was leading towards a denuclearization of Iran. It was a stall agreement, we won’t go further as long as you lift sanctions. It didn’t do anything to shut down Iran’s nuclear ambitions, on delay them to be immediately brought back up as soon as they wanted.


Delaying them is better than what we have now. They are all in on it now. What is your plan to stop them? They have the population of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria combined, and a rather hefty military.

Remember, we walked away from an agreement that while not perfect, was being followed.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:47 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I'm sure that's what we all strived for in the original deal but couldn't get. If it was hard back then it'll probably be impossible now. Even if a president and Congress friendly to Iran gets elected in 2020, they trust us even less by a large margin after we bailed out of the Iran Nuclear Deal

It was not a perfect solution. Not at all. Yeah yeah inspectors blah blah, I hear libs say. They could skirt things and they could quickly restart, which they seem to be doing. Due to polarization, it was either 0% effective or 100% effective, but sadly most things in life aren't absolutely certain.

But it was a single step in a long, long road to building trust. It somewhat slowed and curbed their progress, it brought much to light. It WAS better than no deal at all, not as effective as the 100% sure solution, war, but we can't invade every bad guy in the world


That’s the path man. Does Iran want to part of a global community or not? It’s not hard. Dismantle your nuclear capabilities, agree to stop funding terrorists, and we go ahead and normalize everything. If lawmakers disagree then use the polls. My guess is the vast majority of Americans and the world see that as a better path then tit tat attacks, flare ups, terrorism networks, and crippling sanctions. If trump is smart that’s exactly what he offers, and even the most hardened opponents would have trouble opposing it.

You're making it sound so simple... I wish it was that simple. It's them doing 100% of what we want for 100% of what they want. But what to do when they won't go with 100%? Demanding 100% is super unrealistic and can't just be solved with "being tough, more sanctions, blah blah".

So we get X% of the way and give up Y%. Hopefully X and Y are roughly equal.

Sound familiar? It was the nuclear deal.

It wasn't 100% dismantling and we didn't give them 100%. I wish many liberals would be a bit more honest and stop pretending like it was more perfect than it was... No, it was a step in a certain direction. Maybe you can argue we gave up too much, but expecting an all or nothing deal is completely unrealistic.

I'm sort of confused... You and I are saying a lot of the same but the conclusions you are reaching are vastly different than mine. I think, honestly, you're expecting way too much way too quickly. I also think you overestimate their craziness... They're hostile, they're dicks, but they aren't suicidal. Any nuke they get will be a bargaining chip I'd rather they not have but they aren't gonna use it nor "sneakily" give it to a proxy. If ANY nuke goes off it doesn't matter how far removed from Iran they were, Iran will become the world's biggest mirror and they know that


The agreement did nothing but pause their progress. Maybe I’m a pie in the sky. What does Iran gain by getting a nuke besides a bargaining chip it can already obtain by dismantling the program? The second Iran gets a nuke it won’t propel them into a chip, it’s just going to give the US more credence to keep imposing sanctions indefinitely.
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:52 am

casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:

What does my thoughts on enriching Uranium have to do with anything? Trump walked away from the agreement that was keeping them from doing it. It means the US can't keep it's word. That means we lost the Trust of Iran and most other countries.
Iran has the right to do what they want within their sovereign borders if we can't even follow agreements that were made.


No, they don’t. They actively support terrorist networks, and are pursuing nuclear weapons. That’s obviously of interest to us. Trump walked away because nothing in the agreement actively was leading towards a denuclearization of Iran. It was a stall agreement, we won’t go further as long as you lift sanctions. It didn’t do anything to shut down Iran’s nuclear ambitions, on delay them to be immediately brought back up as soon as they wanted.


Delaying them is better than what we have now. They are all in on it now. What is your plan to stop them? They have the population of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria combined, and a rather hefty military.

Remember, we walked away from an agreement that while not perfect, was being followed.


How is delaying better? The goal should be elimination of their program, sanctions are an action toward that. Delaying “the inevitable” does nothing to solve the problem. Hopefully all this bluster leads to real concrete and substantial talks toward a non nuclear Iran. Iran without a nuclear program and thus no sanctions would be an unbelievable cultural, technical, and education powerhouse
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 10584
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:58 am

N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

That’s the path man. Does Iran want to part of a global community or not? It’s not hard. Dismantle your nuclear capabilities, agree to stop funding terrorists, and we go ahead and normalize everything. If lawmakers disagree then use the polls. My guess is the vast majority of Americans and the world see that as a better path then tit tat attacks, flare ups, terrorism networks, and crippling sanctions. If trump is smart that’s exactly what he offers, and even the most hardened opponents would have trouble opposing it.

You're making it sound so simple... I wish it was that simple. It's them doing 100% of what we want for 100% of what they want. But what to do when they won't go with 100%? Demanding 100% is super unrealistic and can't just be solved with "being tough, more sanctions, blah blah".

So we get X% of the way and give up Y%. Hopefully X and Y are roughly equal.

Sound familiar? It was the nuclear deal.

It wasn't 100% dismantling and we didn't give them 100%. I wish many liberals would be a bit more honest and stop pretending like it was more perfect than it was... No, it was a step in a certain direction. Maybe you can argue we gave up too much, but expecting an all or nothing deal is completely unrealistic.

I'm sort of confused... You and I are saying a lot of the same but the conclusions you are reaching are vastly different than mine. I think, honestly, you're expecting way too much way too quickly. I also think you overestimate their craziness... They're hostile, they're dicks, but they aren't suicidal. Any nuke they get will be a bargaining chip I'd rather they not have but they aren't gonna use it nor "sneakily" give it to a proxy. If ANY nuke goes off it doesn't matter how far removed from Iran they were, Iran will become the world's biggest mirror and they know that


The agreement did nothing but pause their progress. Maybe I’m a pie in the sky. What does Iran gain by getting a nuke besides a bargaining chip it can already obtain by dismantling the program? The second Iran gets a nuke it won’t propel them into a chip, it’s just going to give the US more credence to keep imposing sanctions indefinitely.


They gain the power to wield more counterweight to KSA in the region. Which is why it’s silly to be on Iran’s case about terror, since everyone in that part of the world knows KSA is actively funding and fomenting terror with impunity. They should both be ostracized from the global system until all such activities cease.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:01 am

Aaron747 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
You're making it sound so simple... I wish it was that simple. It's them doing 100% of what we want for 100% of what they want. But what to do when they won't go with 100%? Demanding 100% is super unrealistic and can't just be solved with "being tough, more sanctions, blah blah".

So we get X% of the way and give up Y%. Hopefully X and Y are roughly equal.

Sound familiar? It was the nuclear deal.

It wasn't 100% dismantling and we didn't give them 100%. I wish many liberals would be a bit more honest and stop pretending like it was more perfect than it was... No, it was a step in a certain direction. Maybe you can argue we gave up too much, but expecting an all or nothing deal is completely unrealistic.

I'm sort of confused... You and I are saying a lot of the same but the conclusions you are reaching are vastly different than mine. I think, honestly, you're expecting way too much way too quickly. I also think you overestimate their craziness... They're hostile, they're dicks, but they aren't suicidal. Any nuke they get will be a bargaining chip I'd rather they not have but they aren't gonna use it nor "sneakily" give it to a proxy. If ANY nuke goes off it doesn't matter how far removed from Iran they were, Iran will become the world's biggest mirror and they know that


The agreement did nothing but pause their progress. Maybe I’m a pie in the sky. What does Iran gain by getting a nuke besides a bargaining chip it can already obtain by dismantling the program? The second Iran gets a nuke it won’t propel them into a chip, it’s just going to give the US more credence to keep imposing sanctions indefinitely.


They gain the power to wield more counterweight to KSA in the region. Which is why it’s silly to be on their case about terror, since everyone in that part of the world knows KSA is actively funding and fomenting terror with impunity.


Saudi doesn’t have nukes. The way toward Iran getting the upper hand is a flourishing economy derived my more secular views. A nuke doesn’t help that aim.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 10584
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:04 am

N757ST wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

The agreement did nothing but pause their progress. Maybe I’m a pie in the sky. What does Iran gain by getting a nuke besides a bargaining chip it can already obtain by dismantling the program? The second Iran gets a nuke it won’t propel them into a chip, it’s just going to give the US more credence to keep imposing sanctions indefinitely.


They gain the power to wield more counterweight to KSA in the region. Which is why it’s silly to be on their case about terror, since everyone in that part of the world knows KSA is actively funding and fomenting terror with impunity.


Saudi doesn’t have nukes. The way toward Iran getting the upper hand is a flourishing economy derived my more secular views. A nuke doesn’t help that aim.


Iran’s strategic analysts weren’t born yesterday, and neither were ours. KSA has existing capabilities and access to know how that would take very little time to ramp up.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news ... arabia.htm

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24823846
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8727
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:29 am

N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

That’s the path man. Does Iran want to part of a global community or not? It’s not hard. Dismantle your nuclear capabilities, agree to stop funding terrorists, and we go ahead and normalize everything. If lawmakers disagree then use the polls. My guess is the vast majority of Americans and the world see that as a better path then tit tat attacks, flare ups, terrorism networks, and crippling sanctions. If trump is smart that’s exactly what he offers, and even the most hardened opponents would have trouble opposing it.

You're making it sound so simple... I wish it was that simple. It's them doing 100% of what we want for 100% of what they want. But what to do when they won't go with 100%? Demanding 100% is super unrealistic and can't just be solved with "being tough, more sanctions, blah blah".

So we get X% of the way and give up Y%. Hopefully X and Y are roughly equal.

Sound familiar? It was the nuclear deal.

It wasn't 100% dismantling and we didn't give them 100%. I wish many liberals would be a bit more honest and stop pretending like it was more perfect than it was... No, it was a step in a certain direction. Maybe you can argue we gave up too much, but expecting an all or nothing deal is completely unrealistic.

I'm sort of confused... You and I are saying a lot of the same but the conclusions you are reaching are vastly different than mine. I think, honestly, you're expecting way too much way too quickly. I also think you overestimate their craziness... They're hostile, they're dicks, but they aren't suicidal. Any nuke they get will be a bargaining chip I'd rather they not have but they aren't gonna use it nor "sneakily" give it to a proxy. If ANY nuke goes off it doesn't matter how far removed from Iran they were, Iran will become the world's biggest mirror and they know that


The agreement did nothing but pause their progress. Maybe I’m a pie in the sky. What does Iran gain by getting a nuke besides a bargaining chip it can already obtain by dismantling the program? The second Iran gets a nuke it won’t propel them into a chip, it’s just going to give the US more credence to keep imposing sanctions indefinitely.

Yes, pause progress. That is a WIN. I know there are plenty of better scenarios, but not many are anywhere near realistic. Like I said, it was a step. It is how trust is built when you have none.

And what good is a nuclear bomb bargaining chip? Ask North Korea. Ask Iraq. Ask Qaddafi, ask him years ago when he gave up his nuclear work for relief from the West. Ask any country we deal with that had nukes and any country we deal with without nukes.

That precedent is there for a reason, and all these tough-guy moves may have very short term gains but many negatives. Our foreign policy as a whole over the past couple decades is not helping our nuclear-free regimes goal, at all
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 9957
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:50 am

N757ST wrote:
casinterest wrote:
N757ST wrote:

No, they don’t. They actively support terrorist networks, and are pursuing nuclear weapons. That’s obviously of interest to us. Trump walked away because nothing in the agreement actively was leading towards a denuclearization of Iran. It was a stall agreement, we won’t go further as long as you lift sanctions. It didn’t do anything to shut down Iran’s nuclear ambitions, on delay them to be immediately brought back up as soon as they wanted.


Delaying them is better than what we have now. They are all in on it now. What is your plan to stop them? They have the population of Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria combined, and a rather hefty military.

Remember, we walked away from an agreement that while not perfect, was being followed.


How is delaying better? The goal should be elimination of their program, sanctions are an action toward that. Delaying “the inevitable” does nothing to solve the problem. Hopefully all this bluster leads to real concrete and substantial talks toward a non nuclear Iran. Iran without a nuclear program and thus no sanctions would be an unbelievable cultural, technical, and education powerhouse


Delaying allows for diplomacy, and the strengthening of economic ties. Right now we are in a worse place than we were in 2015-2016. Iran can and will do what they want to achieve their strategic goals. The US hand in helping shape those goals is no longer welcome.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
tu204
Posts: 2075
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:04 am

N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

A willingness to supply extremest groups and a wonton desire to build a nuclear weapon. Oh what a fantastic combination.

I'm absolutely no fan of their government... They've supported terror, led to American deaths, yadaya. And I think it's foolish to think they simply want "nuclear power" and no nuke.

But come on, they are not suicidal. They don't want to be a huge glass parking lot. I think way too many people make Iran to be a boogyman, and it's this thinking that leads us to another crappy Iraq war.

Do I want them to have nukes? Absolutely not. Should be dangle carrots in front of them or use sanctions to prevent them? Absolutely. But it's hard to 100% stop them short of a war, another war no one wants. I don't think the decades of war and trillion dollars is worth it, they aren't gonna launch a nuke after finishing it, and they know the world isn't stupid enough to be like "omg how did Hezbollah blow up Israel? Wonder who did it? Gee." Any nuke they make that is used IS them using it, and then using it = no mo Iran


Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.


Pretty f*ing hard after the Trump regime doublecrossed them by backing out of the agreement back in 2018 and then murdered one of their most respected people a week ago.

Right now as it stands Iran has absolutely no reason (and would be insane) to trust anything coming from the Trump regime.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
SanDiegoLover
Posts: 431
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:24 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:56 am

N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

A willingness to supply extremest groups and a wonton desire to build a nuclear weapon. Oh what a fantastic combination.

I'm absolutely no fan of their government... They've supported terror, led to American deaths, yadaya. And I think it's foolish to think they simply want "nuclear power" and no nuke.

But come on, they are not suicidal. They don't want to be a huge glass parking lot. I think way too many people make Iran to be a boogyman, and it's this thinking that leads us to another crappy Iraq war.

Do I want them to have nukes? Absolutely not. Should be dangle carrots in front of them or use sanctions to prevent them? Absolutely. But it's hard to 100% stop them short of a war, another war no one wants. I don't think the decades of war and trillion dollars is worth it, they aren't gonna launch a nuke after finishing it, and they know the world isn't stupid enough to be like "omg how did Hezbollah blow up Israel? Wonder who did it? Gee." Any nuke they make that is used IS them using it, and then using it = no mo Iran


They are mining ships, destroying drones, funding terrorist factions that attack our interests, and then attack our embassy. I have no idea what they want, except they do all the above and are developing nuclear weapons. At least to me this doesn’t seem like an all that stable situation. Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.


Why should they give up their nuclear desire? If you ran Iran, would you? And they will happily stop funding freedom fighting/terrorist networks the very minute the USA pulls all of its troops and nefarious CIA activity out of their back yard. The USA is not to be trusted. The USA pulled out of an agreement they made, and then declared economic war on Iran 3 years ago and continues to try to destroy Iran using economic blockade. It takes two to tango.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11867
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:34 am

DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I'm absolutely no fan of their government... They've supported terror, led to American deaths, yadaya. And I think it's foolish to think they simply want "nuclear power" and no nuke.

But come on, they are not suicidal. They don't want to be a huge glass parking lot. I think way too many people make Iran to be a boogyman, and it's this thinking that leads us to another crappy Iraq war.

Do I want them to have nukes? Absolutely not. Should be dangle carrots in front of them or use sanctions to prevent them? Absolutely. But it's hard to 100% stop them short of a war, another war no one wants. I don't think the decades of war and trillion dollars is worth it, they aren't gonna launch a nuke after finishing it, and they know the world isn't stupid enough to be like "omg how did Hezbollah blow up Israel? Wonder who did it? Gee." Any nuke they make that is used IS them using it, and then using it = no mo Iran


They are mining ships, destroying drones, funding terrorist factions that attack our interests, and then attack our embassy. I have no idea what they want, except they do all the above and are developing nuclear weapons. At least to me this doesn’t seem like an all that stable situation. Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.

I don't know, I guess I don't subscribe to slippery slope arguments. I can see a HUGE difference between those low level (yes, low level) trolly acts of violence and using nukes offensively. And I don't think them doing some things means they'll ultimately go to the far-most extreme

And btw, I agree. They should absolutely dismantle their crap and knock it off with their sketchy nuclear ambitions. Their leadership is stupid, they are needlessly trolly. That said, they are not suicidal.


Yes, they are not suicidal. They gave up a dozen nukes for the Iran deal, so obviously them having nukes is connected to how much thread to their own national security they see.

But you will have to *buy* them giving up the project, and there is a pretty good chance that no one will ever trust the US with such an agreement ever again, as Trump ended it despite perfect compliance. After they handed over a dozen nukes.....

But just as every other party to the NPT, Iran has the right to nuklear weapons, if they find those necessary for their national security. The treaty is quite explicit about that.

NPT wrote:
Each Party shall in exercising its national sovereignty have the right to withdraw from the Treaty if it decides that extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country.


The biggest problem with the non proliferation treaty is that everybody talks about it, but no one reads it, or lies about it when they talk about it. I never heard any politician or TV talking head saying anything correct about it.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 10584
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:44 am

tommy1808 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

They are mining ships, destroying drones, funding terrorist factions that attack our interests, and then attack our embassy. I have no idea what they want, except they do all the above and are developing nuclear weapons. At least to me this doesn’t seem like an all that stable situation. Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.

I don't know, I guess I don't subscribe to slippery slope arguments. I can see a HUGE difference between those low level (yes, low level) trolly acts of violence and using nukes offensively. And I don't think them doing some things means they'll ultimately go to the far-most extreme

And btw, I agree. They should absolutely dismantle their crap and knock it off with their sketchy nuclear ambitions. Their leadership is stupid, they are needlessly trolly. That said, they are not suicidal.


Yes, they are not suicidal. They gave up a dozen nukes for the Iran deal, so obviously them having nukes is connected to how much thread to their own national security they see.

But you will have to *buy* them giving up the project, and there is a pretty good chance that no one will ever trust the US with such an agreement ever again, as Trump ended it despite perfect compliance. After they handed over a dozen nukes.....

But just as every other party to the NPT, Iran has the right to nuklear weapons, if they find those necessary for their national security. The treaty is quite explicit about that.

NPT wrote:
Each Party shall in exercising its national sovereignty have the right to withdraw from the Treaty if it decides that extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country.


The biggest problem with the non proliferation treaty is that everybody talks about it, but no one reads it, or lies about it when they talk about it. I never heard any politician or TV talking head saying anything correct about it.

best regards
Thomas


Truth is rarely, if ever, politically expedient.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11867
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:51 am

SanDiegoLover wrote:
N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I'm absolutely no fan of their government... They've supported terror, led to American deaths, yadaya. And I think it's foolish to think they simply want "nuclear power" and no nuke.

But come on, they are not suicidal. They don't want to be a huge glass parking lot. I think way too many people make Iran to be a boogyman, and it's this thinking that leads us to another crappy Iraq war.

Do I want them to have nukes? Absolutely not. Should be dangle carrots in front of them or use sanctions to prevent them? Absolutely. But it's hard to 100% stop them short of a war, another war no one wants. I don't think the decades of war and trillion dollars is worth it, they aren't gonna launch a nuke after finishing it, and they know the world isn't stupid enough to be like "omg how did Hezbollah blow up Israel? Wonder who did it? Gee." Any nuke they make that is used IS them using it, and then using it = no mo Iran


They are mining ships, destroying drones, funding terrorist factions that attack our interests, and then attack our embassy. I have no idea what they want, except they do all the above and are developing nuclear weapons. At least to me this doesn’t seem like an all that stable situation. Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.


Why should they give up their nuclear desire? If you ran Iran, would you? And they will happily stop funding freedom fighting/terrorist networks the very minute the USA pulls all of its troops and nefarious CIA activity out of their back yard. .


I wonder if N757ST argued in the 80`s that the United States should give up their nukes because they where financing terrorists. Including interest the USA still owes ~10 Billion USD to Nicaragua. Only nation state ever convicted of being a terror sponsor.

Aaron747 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
I don't know, I guess I don't subscribe to slippery slope arguments. I can see a HUGE difference between those low level (yes, low level) trolly acts of violence and using nukes offensively. And I don't think them doing some things means they'll ultimately go to the far-most extreme

And btw, I agree. They should absolutely dismantle their crap and knock it off with their sketchy nuclear ambitions. Their leadership is stupid, they are needlessly trolly. That said, they are not suicidal.


Yes, they are not suicidal. They gave up a dozen nukes for the Iran deal, so obviously them having nukes is connected to how much thread to their own national security they see.

But you will have to *buy* them giving up the project, and there is a pretty good chance that no one will ever trust the US with such an agreement ever again, as Trump ended it despite perfect compliance. After they handed over a dozen nukes.....

But just as every other party to the NPT, Iran has the right to nuklear weapons, if they find those necessary for their national security. The treaty is quite explicit about that.

NPT wrote:
Each Party shall in exercising its national sovereignty have the right to withdraw from the Treaty if it decides that extraordinary events, related to the subject matter of this Treaty, have jeopardized the supreme interests of its country.


The biggest problem with the non proliferation treaty is that everybody talks about it, but no one reads it, or lies about it when they talk about it. I never heard any politician or TV talking head saying anything correct about it.

best regards
Thomas


Truth is rarely, if ever, politically expedient.


It is downright scary that they can rely on people not reading a plain englisch treaty with just a touch more than 2000 words. That is 10 Minutes reading time for slow readers.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 10584
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:06 am

tommy1808 wrote:
SanDiegoLover wrote:
N757ST wrote:

They are mining ships, destroying drones, funding terrorist factions that attack our interests, and then attack our embassy. I have no idea what they want, except they do all the above and are developing nuclear weapons. At least to me this doesn’t seem like an all that stable situation. Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.


Why should they give up their nuclear desire? If you ran Iran, would you? And they will happily stop funding freedom fighting/terrorist networks the very minute the USA pulls all of its troops and nefarious CIA activity out of their back yard. .


I wonder if N757ST argued in the 80`s that the United States should give up their nukes because they where financing terrorists. Including interest the USA still owes ~10 Billion USD to Nicaragua. Only nation state ever convicted of being a terror sponsor.

Aaron747 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Yes, they are not suicidal. They gave up a dozen nukes for the Iran deal, so obviously them having nukes is connected to how much thread to their own national security they see.

But you will have to *buy* them giving up the project, and there is a pretty good chance that no one will ever trust the US with such an agreement ever again, as Trump ended it despite perfect compliance. After they handed over a dozen nukes.....

But just as every other party to the NPT, Iran has the right to nuklear weapons, if they find those necessary for their national security. The treaty is quite explicit about that.



The biggest problem with the non proliferation treaty is that everybody talks about it, but no one reads it, or lies about it when they talk about it. I never heard any politician or TV talking head saying anything correct about it.

best regards
Thomas


Truth is rarely, if ever, politically expedient.


It is downright scary that they can rely on people not reading a plain englisch treaty with just a touch more than 2000 words. That is 10 Minutes reading time for slow readers.

best regards
Thomas


That’s nothing - members of Congress loyal to the WH are running rampant with loaded McCarthyist language on merely asking questions.

Dissent is not disloyalty.

https://twitter.com/bradmossesq/status/ ... 77409?s=21
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3568
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:56 am

N757ST wrote:
Ok, so the shooting down of a drone, mining ships, and attacking an embassy don’t matter, got it, no provocation.


The drone was over Iranian territory. They had every right to shoot that piece of junk down. Our side sent so many drones over their territory in the past 2 decades that they have an entire museum full of captured and shot down UAVs.

The embassy "attack" was a riot. Nobody was harmed. The riot was in response to the US bombing that killed at least 25 and wounded over 50. How's that for restraint from the other side? It is the US that constantly makes use of disproportionate force.

Your only evidence of Iranian involvement in the oil tanker attacks was of the Iranians removing unexploded ordnance and rescuing the crew of a burning ship. Even your allies in Japan did not back up the claims that Iran did it.

Your country is once more running rampant in the middle east.
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:32 am

VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Ok, so the shooting down of a drone, mining ships, and attacking an embassy don’t matter, got it, no provocation.


The drone was over Iranian territory. They had every right to shoot that piece of junk down. Our side sent so many drones over their territory in the past 2 decades that they have an entire museum full of captured and shot down UAVs.

The embassy "attack" was a riot. Nobody was harmed. The riot was in response to the US bombing that killed at least 25 and wounded over 50. How's that for restraint from the other side? It is the US that constantly makes use of disproportionate force.

Your only evidence of Iranian involvement in the oil tanker attacks was of the Iranians removing unexploded ordnance and rescuing the crew of a burning ship. Even your allies in Japan did not back up the claims that Iran did it.

Your country is once more running rampant in the middle east.


According to the US the drone was 17.5 miles off the coast in international waters.

The embassy attack was an attack straight up, committed by militia (terrorists) supported by Iran. Yeah there were some sympathizers that joined in, but it was no riot.

The 25 killed? The same Iranian supported militia men (terrorists) that had just fired rockets at our air base killing Americans.

Iranian limpit mines took those ships out. They tried to grab an unexploded ordinance off a ship as to not be implicated in the rest of the attacks. So nice of them to rescue that crew after they attacked the ship. Straight up do gooders right there.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11867
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:43 am

N757ST wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
Ok, so the shooting down of a drone, mining ships, and attacking an embassy don’t matter, got it, no provocation.


The drone was over Iranian territory. They had every right to shoot that piece of junk down. Our side sent so many drones over their territory in the past 2 decades that they have an entire museum full of captured and shot down UAVs.

The embassy "attack" was a riot. Nobody was harmed. The riot was in response to the US bombing that killed at least 25 and wounded over 50. How's that for restraint from the other side? It is the US that constantly makes use of disproportionate force.

Your only evidence of Iranian involvement in the oil tanker attacks was of the Iranians removing unexploded ordnance and rescuing the crew of a burning ship. Even your allies in Japan did not back up the claims that Iran did it.

Your country is once more running rampant in the middle east.


According to the US the drone was 17.5 miles off the coast in international waters.

The embassy attack was an attack straight up, committed by militia (terrorists) supported by Iran. Yeah there were some sympathizers that joined in, but it was no riot.

The 25 killed? The same Iranian supported militia men (terrorists) that had just fired rockets at our air base killing Americans.

Iranian limpit mines took those ships out. They tried to grab an unexploded ordinance off a ship as to not be implicated in the rest of the attacks. So nice of them to rescue that crew after they attacked the ship. Straight up do gooders right there.


Oh, how cute. You wage war against them for almost 70 years and complain when they actually fight back......

Everybody assumed the USA couldn´t be more of a laughing stock then under Bush jr., but boy was everybody wrong. Well, you get more pitty... the USA reduced to a schoolyard bully.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
N757ST
Posts: 899
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:47 am

tommy1808 wrote:
N757ST wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

The drone was over Iranian territory. They had every right to shoot that piece of junk down. Our side sent so many drones over their territory in the past 2 decades that they have an entire museum full of captured and shot down UAVs.

The embassy "attack" was a riot. Nobody was harmed. The riot was in response to the US bombing that killed at least 25 and wounded over 50. How's that for restraint from the other side? It is the US that constantly makes use of disproportionate force.

Your only evidence of Iranian involvement in the oil tanker attacks was of the Iranians removing unexploded ordnance and rescuing the crew of a burning ship. Even your allies in Japan did not back up the claims that Iran did it.

Your country is once more running rampant in the middle east.


According to the US the drone was 17.5 miles off the coast in international waters.

The embassy attack was an attack straight up, committed by militia (terrorists) supported by Iran. Yeah there were some sympathizers that joined in, but it was no riot.

The 25 killed? The same Iranian supported militia men (terrorists) that had just fired rockets at our air base killing Americans.

Iranian limpit mines took those ships out. They tried to grab an unexploded ordinance off a ship as to not be implicated in the rest of the attacks. So nice of them to rescue that crew after they attacked the ship. Straight up do gooders right there.


Oh, how cute. You wage war against them for almost 70 years and complain when they actually fight back......

Everybody assumed the USA couldn´t be more of a laughing stock then under Bush jr., but boy was everybody wrong. Well, you get more pitty... the USA reduced to a schoolyard bully.

best regards
Thomas


No where have I said we are innocent in all of this. Both side have blood on our hands. The killing of this general though was not done in a vacuum, and was not done without warning like many posters here inferred. According to them killing him was the first shot in this latest flare up, when there have been hundreds of shots before.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11867
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:49 am

N757ST wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

According to the US the drone was 17.5 miles off the coast in international waters.

The embassy attack was an attack straight up, committed by militia (terrorists) supported by Iran. Yeah there were some sympathizers that joined in, but it was no riot.

The 25 killed? The same Iranian supported militia men (terrorists) that had just fired rockets at our air base killing Americans.

Iranian limpit mines took those ships out. They tried to grab an unexploded ordinance off a ship as to not be implicated in the rest of the attacks. So nice of them to rescue that crew after they attacked the ship. Straight up do gooders right there.


Oh, how cute. You wage war against them for almost 70 years and complain when they actually fight back......

Everybody assumed the USA couldn´t be more of a laughing stock then under Bush jr., but boy was everybody wrong. Well, you get more pitty... the USA reduced to a schoolyard bully.

best regards
Thomas


No where have I said we are innocent in all of this. Both side have blood on our hands. The killing of this general though was not done in a vacuum, and was not done without warning like many posters here inferred. According to them killing him was the first shot in this latest flare up, when there have been hundreds of shots before.


Yes, the first shot was putting illegal sanctions on Iran. Historically a perfectly valid reason to go to war.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12559
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:23 am

LMP737 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
The Iranian response was quite restrained and not IMO designed to kill anyone, it was mainly for domestic consumption, to show the Iranian public that they were doing something, they cited UN article 51 as the reason for the reprisal. However I don't believe this is the end of it, Persians like the Chinese have very long memories, they will play the waiting game, as they say revenge is a dish best served cold.


Not having casualties was just plain dumb luck IMHO. I don't think the Iranians have the targeting or intel capabilities to be able to pick buildings out for a conventionally armed ballistic missile based on whether or not there are people in them,


The attack on the Saudi Aramco oil processing facilities at Abqaiq showed that they have precision targeting abilities.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12559
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:27 am

N757ST wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
N757ST wrote:

They are mining ships, destroying drones, funding terrorist factions that attack our interests, and then attack our embassy. I have no idea what they want, except they do all the above and are developing nuclear weapons. At least to me this doesn’t seem like an all that stable situation. Give up their nuclear interests entirely in agreement and stop supplying terrorist networks, in exchange we life all sanctions against your country and establish an embassy. How f’ing hard is that.

I don't know, I guess I don't subscribe to slippery slope arguments. I can see a HUGE difference between those low level (yes, low level) trolly acts of violence and using nukes offensively. And I don't think them doing some things means they'll ultimately go to the far-most extreme

And btw, I agree. They should absolutely dismantle their crap and knock it off with their sketchy nuclear ambitions. Their leadership is stupid, they are needlessly trolly. That said, they are not suicidal.

As someone else said, this is the same conversation we were having in 2002! I am almost positive everyone making arguments supporting hostilities and aggressive action would be doing the same in 2002, regardless of how they feel about the Iraq war now. It baffles my mind


So then after all this bluster is done, that’s exactly what the US government and world leaders should offer. Completely and unilaterally dismantle your nuclear program. Allow a third party country to supply your nuclear plants and allow a third party to dispose of waste nuclear material. Discontinue funding terrorist networks worldwide. Take a “more” neutral position to Israel. In return the US retracts all sanctions, and encourages allies to do that same, establish a new US embassy and ambassador to Iran in Tehran. This isn’t hard. I know Trump might not be the president to do it, but this is the easy solution.


The middle east is already destabilised by Israel being the only player with nuclear strike ability, for MAD to work someone else should also have that ability. So either allow Iran to have them or take them away from Israel.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3568
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:44 am

N757ST wrote:
According to the US the drone was 17.5 miles off the coast in international waters.


BS. Everyone knows you don't respect sovereign nations airspace with your drones. The Iranians don't have a massive collection of your drones without reason.


N757ST wrote:
The embassy attack was an attack straight up, committed by militia (terrorists) supported by Iran. Yeah there were some sympathizers that joined in, but it was no riot.


It was a riot/protest, not attack. People get killed and wounded in attacks, not even the protesters suffered any wounded in this one.


N757ST wrote:
The 25 killed? The same Iranian supported militia men (terrorists) that had just fired rockets at our air base killing Americans.


Killing 1 american, a mercenary.


N757ST wrote:
Iranian limpit mines took those ships out. They tried to grab an unexploded ordinance off a ship as to not be implicated in the rest of the attacks. So nice of them to rescue that crew after they attacked the ship. Straight up do gooders right there.


Riddle me this: If the US authorities find an explosive device in a school, do they:
A) Leave it in place and risk that it blows up, lest they draw criticism from hawkish right-wing politicians that they themselves planted it?
or
B) Remove it before it causes a major disaster?

You are allowed to use your brain for this one :roll:
Hint: It is in nobody's interest that a tanker full of crude oil starts leaking into the Arabian Sea.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 3568
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:47 am

Kiwirob wrote:
The attack on the Saudi Aramco oil processing facilities at Abqaiq showed that they have precision targeting abilities.


The satellite photos of the hits at Al Asad do seem to indicate that they were either really precise at hitting hangars/shelters, or got extremely lucky.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2426
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:02 am

N757ST wrote:
So then after all this bluster is done, that’s exactly what the US government and world leaders should offer. Completely and unilaterally dismantle your nuclear program. Allow a third party country to supply your nuclear plants and allow a third party to dispose of waste nuclear material. Discontinue funding terrorist networks worldwide. Take a “more” neutral position to Israel. In return the US retracts all sanctions, and encourages allies to do that same, establish a new US embassy and ambassador to Iran in Tehran. This isn’t hard. I know Trump might not be the president to do it, but this is the easy solution.


This was exactly what was offered to Iran under Obama administration, and everyone including Iran agreed and signed it. Later, Trump admin just reversed the agreement and pushed for additional demands to Iran. Expectedly, that did not get anywhere.
 
anrec80
Posts: 2426
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:50 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:08 am

N757ST wrote:
How is delaying better? The goal should be elimination of their program, sanctions are an action toward that. Delaying “the inevitable” does nothing to solve the problem. Hopefully all this bluster leads to real concrete and substantial talks toward a non nuclear Iran. Iran without a nuclear program and thus no sanctions would be an unbelievable cultural, technical, and education powerhouse


In order to hold such talks, there needs to be trust in the USA, and that the USA will not just walk away from the agreements, as they did. Of course, this complicated things by large margin and eventually led to this mess. Even though the initial agreement may have been imperfect, you do not pull out of it for no reason. You go back to the negotiation table and improve it.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12559
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:14 am

VSMUT wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
The attack on the Saudi Aramco oil processing facilities at Abqaiq showed that they have precision targeting abilities.


The satellite photos of the hits at Al Asad do seem to indicate that they were either really precise at hitting hangars/shelters, or got extremely lucky.


The attack on the Saudi Aramco oil processing facilities at Abqaiq showed that they have precision targeting abilities, plus they called the Iraqis and warned them.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11867
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:18 am

VSMUT wrote:
N757ST wrote:
According to the US the drone was 17.5 miles off the coast in international waters.


BS. Everyone knows you don't respect sovereign nations airspace with your drones. The Iranians don't have a massive collection of your drones without reason.


And even the DoD seems to disagree...

Image

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18268
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:36 am

petertenthije wrote:
The USA could offer the moon to Iran, and they would probably not accept it.


Why would they with Trump in charge? Thanks to him, it will take years before others trust that the US will stick to an agreed deal again.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11867
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:00 pm

scbriml wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
The USA could offer the moon to Iran, and they would probably not accept it.


Why would they with Trump in charge? Thanks to him, it will take years before others trust that the US will stick to an agreed deal again.


Which is funny, considering they accepted a deal that was far less than the moon:

Iran gave:

- Gave effectively 10-12 nukes up
- Accepted a surveillance regime that had no legal basis, and was effectively blackmailed into
- Put a break on its sovereign right to have nukes for much, much longer than the NPT requires (only 90 days vs. years).

Iran got:

- lifting of sanctions that had essentially no treaty basis
- their own money back

Facts seem to rather indicate that Iran could offer the Moon to the US, and the US wouldn´t accept it ....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aerlingus747, ElPistolero and 87 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos