tommy1808
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:09 am

sonicruiser wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
But in this case I really don’t see how one could blame Trump or the US-American side. He refrained from striking back but the Iranians shot that aircraft down, maybe expecting an attack but mainly because of stupidity or incompetence.


How would Iran have known he wasn't going to strike back? Threatening cultural sites may have significantly increased the importance of shooting down any enemy aircraft than if the US had only threatened military sites.


I think that for everyone not denying that Russia shot down MH17 its was pretty consensus that Russia would be guilty in part even if the Missile had been Ukrainian, as they started the war. By that token blame would fall on the US as well, just with the main responsibility on the Iranian side.

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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:17 am

N14AZ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
I was reading some Canadian threads about the crash on Reddit earlier today. Many Canadians on that thread were sharply divided over how much Trump had to do with creating the conditions for this shootdown to happen. Some said it was completely Trump's fault, some said it was completely Iran's fault. Others, including my view, is that it was a combination of gross irresponsibility from both the actions of Iran and the US. One Canadian on that Reddit thread proposed that compensation should be 50/50 from Iran and the US. I wonder if Canada will go this route in seeking compensation for the victims.


I think that would be logical. In a moral and just world, leaders from both countries would go to Canada, genuinely apologize to the families, and hold bilateral talks shortly thereafter, to show that these folks haven’t had their lives cut short in vain.

Hmmm, usually I am rather critical about Trump and his advisors as you can see from some comments further above (... I hate how the USA is treating us in case of Nordstream 2...). But in this case I really don’t see how one could blame Trump or the US-American side. He refrained from striking back but the Iranians shot that aircraft down, maybe expecting an attack but mainly because of stupidity or incompetence.

Even before we learned from the shooting-down of the Ukrainian 737 my personal conclusion was that Trump is the winner of this episode (yes, domestically, as Thomas noted). Now the Iranian side looks even weaker: 50 casualties during the funeral of the general and then shooting down an aircraft with their own people or people with Iranian roots.


Respectfully disagree - the loss of the 737 was a casualty of the situation in its entirety. There is a 99.9% (probably better) chance this flight would have operated safely if:

a. the situation had not been ramped up to by the impetuousness and ‘maximum pressure’ campaign from the White House (includes unilateral junking of the JPCOA)

b. Iranian authorities, knowing they were going to retaliate (regardless of purpose - for domestic consumption etc), should have closed IKA that night and not permitted flights to depart or arrive in the period they couldn’t be certain of US response.

Any reasonable person should be able to see this distribution of responsibility that wasted 180+ lives.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:15 am

Aaron747, you are right that Iran is under a lot of stress, and stress revealed the incompetence of both Iran aviation administrators, Iran defense forces, and the Ukraine company for flying in that area in those conditions.

Ukraine - of anyone - knows the hazards of flying near poorly trained military forces such as the Ukrainian irregular forces that downed the MH 777.

The argument the White House was responsible for plane crash is interesting, but pretty far-fetched. US forces were not in the area. The people professionally responsible for the safety of this flight were Iranians, to a lesser extent Ukrainians, and lastly aircraft OEMs/MX, who so far were not implicated.
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:21 am

tommy1808 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Why would they with Trump in charge? Thanks to him, it will take years before others trust that the US will stick to an agreed deal again.


They should because Trump departed from the US government's "we don't assassin leaders" rule.


Good luck with that with a fundamentalist "i´ll be a Martyr" Government. Have you seen pictures of that General on front lines? No Vest, no Helmet, standing upright with shots being fired......
"Death" is no deterrent...

IMHO, Most of the world's prolonged miseries are result of this single rule. Imagine if Saddam, Bin Laden, Gaddafi and others were taken out with one drone strike without any civilian casualties, world in general and middle east in particular would be a peaceful place.


While generally a good idea that stuff is limited to people screwing it up, the problem is that if you make it acceptable to kill other countries leaders you are making it acceptable to kill your leaders. And if that becomes acceptable "Speaker of the House" will a thought after job as it would give you a decent chance to become president, but not having to serve long enough to be killed yourself.

Would US Congress pickup this issue with Trump, maybe or may not. As much as Dems want to nail Trump, they will not risk looking unpartioric by supporting an Iranian general.


The General is dead and can´t be supported. If they make an issue out of it, it will be because his act of war got you kicked out of Iraq.

Are you suggesting every member of Iran's upper echelon are really mourning Soleimien's demise.


I think most people understand that some people will benefit from his demise and are quite thankful ....

But be careful: When you replaced the Shah with the Ayatollah things got somewhat worse....

best regards
Thomas


I agree with this. Our doctrine is that we will responsibly use our good drones. If China has better drones, then Chinese leaders can dictate terms and policies directly to a US president / US Congress.

The US policy is to promote significant international freedoms and sovereignty for all. But we claim there are limits, including state terror and nuclear proliferation. Therefore, we claim a special global overseer role (for example, the ability to go into Pakistan and get Bin Laden). This claim is, just as you say, transgressive of the rule of law among equal sovereign states. We don't hold strictly to the claim that all states are equals. The keeper of the best technology can set a few ground rules, globally (above national sovereignty of Iran, North Korea). And if it isn't the US playing that role, it will be someone else. A world without US playing referee could be a surprisingly chaotic and violent place (as it usually was).
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:24 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Aaron747, you are right that Iran is under a lot of stress, and stress revealed the incompetence of both Iran aviation administrators, Iran defense forces, and the Ukraine company for flying in that area in those conditions.

Ukraine - of anyone - knows the hazards of flying near poorly trained military forces such as the Ukrainian irregular forces that downed the MH 777.

The argument the White House was responsible for plane crash is interesting, but pretty far-fetched. US forces were not in the area. The people professionally responsible for the safety of this flight were Iranians, to a lesser extent Ukrainians, and lastly aircraft OEMs/MX, who so far were not implicated.


Hardly far-fetched - alert status (and crew anxiety) for SAM sites would be otherwise normal in greater Tehran without the months of threats and sabre-rattling that resulted from unilateral departure from JPCOA. Iran analysts accurately predicted how the regime would respond, so the progression of events has been no surprise to the WH. The onus was on them to drive events another direction, as the more powerful nation.
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extender
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:03 pm

Who is responsible if you're pointing a gun at me, and John Doe scares you, and you accidentally hit the trigger and kill me?

Spin it anyway you wan it, you are on the hook, not John Doe. Trump is responsible is laughable.
 
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:04 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
We don't hold strictly to the claim that all states are equals.


That is obvious.. ..however you signed and ratified treaties that say the opposite..the fun bit is that one of those gives all sovereign nations the explicit right to have nuclear weapons, if they think they need them. And you even interpret that treaty as null and void during hostilities (that is the legal justification why NATO nuclear sharing doesn't violate the NPT).

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Thomas
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tommy1808
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:08 pm

extender wrote:
Who is responsible if you're pointing a gun at me, and John Doe scares you, and you accidentally hit the trigger and kill me?

Spin it anyway you wan it, you are on the hook, not John Doe. Trump is responsible is laughable.


That is right. It just isn't the right analogy. More a bystander getting shot while you act in legally perfect self defense. Moral forfeiture theory I believe that is called, and is applied under US law.

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Thomas
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olle
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:20 pm

tu204 wrote:
Too many posts that I can reply to so I'll sum it up:

Since the U.S. unilateraly abandoned the treaty with Iran, why should Iran do anything at all?
Iran did not violate the treate that was signed with the U.S. Ok, so Trump thought it was not enough. Well, his questions should be towards who was negotiating it in the firstplace.
Iran followed the rules, the U.S. broke them. The E.U. followed them and were threatend with punushment. Perhaps time the E.U. grow a pair?

Since the U.S. is in Iran's neighbourhod why would Iran comply to any of the US's demands, considering they screwed them on the above?
Why shouldn't Iran have a nuke or two? These are mainly defensive weapons saying "you f^ck with us, we f^ck you!".

At this point in time Iran is right and the U.S. is wrong.


Yes, EU is growing a pair but without screaming about it. Replacing US payment systems, open up for credit facilities thru EU makes the US veto much weaker in the future.

For coperations like Airbus the US sanctions is strongly effective but for many EU companies that onbasis of corporate risks has avoided US markets the effects will decrease. These companies right now replace us content with replacements.
 
extender
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:22 pm

You're still on the hook Tommy. You pull the trigger, the book falls on you. Whether or not you shot hit/missed your intended target, you own it. If it breaks a window, you're liable; if it kills someone, negligent homicide.
 
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:36 pm

extender wrote:
You're still on the hook Tommy. You pull the trigger, the book falls on you. Whether or not you shot hit/missed your intended target, you own it. If it breaks a window, you're liable; if it kills someone, negligent homicide.


Just pure trolling - you're not even trying to make a serious argument. You cannot disprove that JPCOA forfeiture and 14 months of back and forth precipitated these events, because a timeline exists and no other *factual* narrative is possible. Thanks for playing.
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tommy1808
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:36 pm

extender wrote:
You're still on the hook Tommy. You pull the trigger, the book falls on you. Whether or not you shot hit/missed your intended target, you own it. If it breaks a window, you're liable; if it kills someone, negligent homicide.


Yes, hence both parties have guilt. I would assume the "Judgment reversed. Carley, P. J., and Pope, J., concur. " means that is not always the case. https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/1 ... h-v-state/

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Thomas
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extender
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:58 pm

No, they do not. Read your case, it isn't the same thing.
 
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:01 pm

extender wrote:
No, they do not. Read your case, it isn't the same thing.


Of course not. One is war. War comes with collateral damage. The Party that started the war is invariably guilty.

"Read your case" is not a coherent argument.

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Thomas
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Aesma
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:03 pm

French foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian (who was Defense minister under president Hollande 2012-2017, so he knows a thing or two about Iran) says Iran could have a bomb in 1 year, 2 years top.
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extender
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:19 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Of course not. One is war. War comes with collateral damage. The Party that started the war is invariably guilty.

"Read your case" is not a coherent argument.



Neither is fouling the air, but don't let that stop you. Post something relevant, don't just throw something and think you're going to baffle people with your acumen. Trump is not on the hook for some system operator firing an SA-15 and bringing down a Ukrainian 737. I posted something relevant to the discussion to disprove a logical assumption made by another member.
 
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:40 pm

extender wrote:
Trump is not on the hook for some system operator firing an SA-15 and bringing down a Ukrainian 737. I .


I guess when can start procecuting US soldiers for all collateral damages caused then, as only who pulls the trigger is guilty. Funny to have you redefining soldiers as murderers.

Best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tommy1808
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:43 pm

Aesma wrote:
French foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian (who was Defense minister under president Hollande 2012-2017, so he knows a thing or two about Iran) says Iran could have a bomb in 1 year, 2 years top.


Of course they can. They effectively already had "the bomb" before the deal, as the weapon down the HEU road itself is so trivially simple, that the US dropped one on Hiroshima without even testing it. The only big task is getting enough Uranium enriched enough.

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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:47 pm

extender wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Of course not. One is war. War comes with collateral damage. The Party that started the war is invariably guilty.

"Read your case" is not a coherent argument.



Neither is fouling the air, but don't let that stop you. Post something relevant, don't just throw something and think you're going to baffle people with your acumen. Trump is not on the hook for some system operator firing an SA-15 and bringing down a Ukrainian 737. I posted something relevant to the discussion to disprove a logical assumption made by another member.


Pop quiz, hot shot: imagine Iran has normal diplomatic relations with the US and is not a foe - is it logical to posit that AA fire would not take out PS752 on departure from IKA? If so, why?
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extender
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:47 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
I guess when can start procecuting US soldiers for all collateral damages caused then, as only who pulls the trigger is guilty. Funny to have you redefining soldiers as murderers.


Have at it. Take your petition to the Hague. Let me know how it works.
 
tu204
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:50 pm

olle wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Too many posts that I can reply to so I'll sum it up:

Since the U.S. unilateraly abandoned the treaty with Iran, why should Iran do anything at all?
Iran did not violate the treate that was signed with the U.S. Ok, so Trump thought it was not enough. Well, his questions should be towards who was negotiating it in the firstplace.
Iran followed the rules, the U.S. broke them. The E.U. followed them and were threatend with punushment. Perhaps time the E.U. grow a pair?

Since the U.S. is in Iran's neighbourhod why would Iran comply to any of the US's demands, considering they screwed them on the above?
Why shouldn't Iran have a nuke or two? These are mainly defensive weapons saying "you f^ck with us, we f^ck you!".

At this point in time Iran is right and the U.S. is wrong.


Yes, EU is growing a pair but without screaming about it. Replacing US payment systems, open up for credit facilities thru EU makes the US veto much weaker in the future.

For coperations like Airbus the US sanctions is strongly effective but for many EU companies that onbasis of corporate risks has avoided US markets the effects will decrease. These companies right now replace us content with replacements.


That is good to hear.
The sooner the EU creates alternative (sovreing) financial instruments, the better it will be for everyone.
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tommy1808
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:52 pm

extender wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
I guess when can start procecuting US soldiers for all collateral damages caused then, as only who pulls the trigger is guilty. Funny to have you redefining soldiers as murderers.


Have at it. Take your petition to the Hague. Let me know how it works.


It doesn´t. But that is because you are wrong. If you where right, it would.

best regards
Thomas
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:00 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

I think that would be logical. In a moral and just world, leaders from both countries would go to Canada, genuinely apologize to the families, and hold bilateral talks shortly thereafter, to show that these folks haven’t had their lives cut short in vain.

Hmmm, usually I am rather critical about Trump and his advisors as you can see from some comments further above (... I hate how the USA is treating us in case of Nordstream 2...). But in this case I really don’t see how one could blame Trump or the US-American side. He refrained from striking back but the Iranians shot that aircraft down, maybe expecting an attack but mainly because of stupidity or incompetence.

Even before we learned from the shooting-down of the Ukrainian 737 my personal conclusion was that Trump is the winner of this episode (yes, domestically, as Thomas noted). Now the Iranian side looks even weaker: 50 casualties during the funeral of the general and then shooting down an aircraft with their own people or people with Iranian roots.


Respectfully disagree - the loss of the 737 was a casualty of the situation in its entirety. There is a 99.9% (probably better) chance this flight would have operated safely if:

a. the situation had not been ramped up to by the impetuousness and ‘maximum pressure’ campaign from the White House (includes unilateral junking of the JPCOA)

b. Iranian authorities, knowing they were going to retaliate (regardless of purpose - for domestic consumption etc), should have closed IKA that night and not permitted flights to depart or arrive in the period they couldn’t be certain of US response.

Any reasonable person should be able to see this distribution of responsibility that wasted 180+ lives.


Trump Derangement Syndrome: Blame Trump for the Iranians shooting down an aircraft full of Iranians in Iran.

What's next? Blame Trump for the stampede that killed dozens of Iranians too? Nonsense.

Distributing responsibility always ends up with irresponsible people blaming others for their screw-ups and stupid actions. They own it themselves, no one asked anyone to retaliate for the killing of a murderous general, only themselves.

Trump now is seen as the rational one that did not act when the Iranians attacked bases were American personnel were stationed.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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casinterest
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:22 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
casinterest wrote:
DeltaMD90 wrote:
You don't think Iran wouldn't go down that line of reasoning? I don't like the regime at all but I don't think it's very difficult to say that Trump started all this with killing Soleimani.

And the air defense guys... Who says they didn't immediately notify their superiors? Or were scared shitless and kept their mouths shut?

Ultimately, I think there is like a 0% chance they can cover it up if they shot it down. I'd say they'd lose less face if they actually admitted it. Iranian citizens aren't dumb, they're gonna figure out the truth and then know their government is BSing them on top of it all.

Might as well tie some of it back to Trump


In the short term , tying it back to Trump makes a lot of sense, but despite protests from others, there are cooler and measured steps being taken in Iran. Most of all , they want out of the sanctions, so I would expect less of the blame US rhetoric, however, they may make it very targeted at Trump, but I am not sure if they can pull that off.



Why the speculation? Widely reported that the air defense system used in that area is a russian built air defense system that has automatic tracking and firing mechanisms. Likely launched before they even knew it was happening. Airplane dispatched an hour plus late so it wasnt expected. Just a sad accident. Read the posts in the civil forum...

Yes, but to have Automatic firing when you still have an active airport nearby? That is a screw up all over the place. You either shut down the automatic firing, or you shut down the airport.
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agill
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:59 pm

If they had shot down an airliner that entered their airspace I would have accepted the argument of self defence, but this was a plane that started in their own city far from their borders.
 
tu204
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:16 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Hmmm, usually I am rather critical about Trump and his advisors as you can see from some comments further above (... I hate how the USA is treating us in case of Nordstream 2...). But in this case I really don’t see how one could blame Trump or the US-American side. He refrained from striking back but the Iranians shot that aircraft down, maybe expecting an attack but mainly because of stupidity or incompetence.

Even before we learned from the shooting-down of the Ukrainian 737 my personal conclusion was that Trump is the winner of this episode (yes, domestically, as Thomas noted). Now the Iranian side looks even weaker: 50 casualties during the funeral of the general and then shooting down an aircraft with their own people or people with Iranian roots.


Respectfully disagree - the loss of the 737 was a casualty of the situation in its entirety. There is a 99.9% (probably better) chance this flight would have operated safely if:

a. the situation had not been ramped up to by the impetuousness and ‘maximum pressure’ campaign from the White House (includes unilateral junking of the JPCOA)

b. Iranian authorities, knowing they were going to retaliate (regardless of purpose - for domestic consumption etc), should have closed IKA that night and not permitted flights to depart or arrive in the period they couldn’t be certain of US response.

Any reasonable person should be able to see this distribution of responsibility that wasted 180+ lives.



They own it themselves, no one asked anyone to retaliate for the killing of a murderous general, only themselves.


You kidding? The Iranians were responding, and may I say very, very lightly to the US' stupid, illegal act of aggression against them. They had and still have a moral right to off any high level U.S. official that goes visiting pretty much anywhere in the World. And they would be right about it...

*To clarify: we are talking about the missile strike against U.S. bases, not the 737.
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:26 pm

tu204 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Respectfully disagree - the loss of the 737 was a casualty of the situation in its entirety. There is a 99.9% (probably better) chance this flight would have operated safely if:

a. the situation had not been ramped up to by the impetuousness and ‘maximum pressure’ campaign from the White House (includes unilateral junking of the JPCOA)

b. Iranian authorities, knowing they were going to retaliate (regardless of purpose - for domestic consumption etc), should have closed IKA that night and not permitted flights to depart or arrive in the period they couldn’t be certain of US response.

Any reasonable person should be able to see this distribution of responsibility that wasted 180+ lives.



They own it themselves, no one asked anyone to retaliate for the killing of a murderous general, only themselves.


You kidding? The Iranians were responding, and may I say very, very lightly to the US' stupid, illegal act of aggression against them. They had and still have a moral right to off any high level U.S. official that goes visiting pretty much anywhere in the World. And they would be right about it...

*To clarify: we are talking about the missile strike against U.S. bases, not the 737.


Not disputing their retaliation, but to blame the US for this crash because they were on high alert due to their retaliation is absurd and nonsense. And as for illegal, that's up to whoever believes that.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
dmg626
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:29 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Hmmm, usually I am rather critical about Trump and his advisors as you can see from some comments further above (... I hate how the USA is treating us in case of Nordstream 2...). But in this case I really don’t see how one could blame Trump or the US-American side. He refrained from striking back but the Iranians shot that aircraft down, maybe expecting an attack but mainly because of stupidity or incompetence.

Even before we learned from the shooting-down of the Ukrainian 737 my personal conclusion was that Trump is the winner of this episode (yes, domestically, as Thomas noted). Now the Iranian side looks even weaker: 50 casualties during the funeral of the general and then shooting down an aircraft with their own people or people with Iranian roots.


Respectfully disagree - the loss of the 737 was a casualty of the situation in its entirety. There is a 99.9% (probably better) chance this flight would have operated safely if:

a. the situation had not been ramped up to by the impetuousness and ‘maximum pressure’ campaign from the White House (includes unilateral junking of the JPCOA)

b. Iranian authorities, knowing they were going to retaliate (regardless of purpose - for domestic consumption etc), should have closed IKA that night and not permitted flights to depart or arrive in the period they couldn’t be certain of US response.

Any reasonable person should be able to see this distribution of responsibility that wasted 180+ lives.


Trump Derangement Syndrome: Blame Trump for the Iranians shooting down an aircraft full of Iranians in Iran.

What's next? Blame Trump for the stampede that killed dozens of Iranians too? Nonsense.

Distributing responsibility always ends up with irresponsible people blaming others for their screw-ups and stupid actions. They own it themselves, no one asked anyone to retaliate for the killing of a murderous general, only themselves.

Trump now is seen as the rational one that did not act when the Iranians attacked bases were American personnel were stationed.


Be careful what you post. I posted about Iran being responsible for funeral and Passenger deaths and was given a warning by apparently Iranian biased moderator.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:35 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
N14AZ wrote:
Hmmm, usually I am rather critical about Trump and his advisors as you can see from some comments further above (... I hate how the USA is treating us in case of Nordstream 2...). But in this case I really don’t see how one could blame Trump or the US-American side. He refrained from striking back but the Iranians shot that aircraft down, maybe expecting an attack but mainly because of stupidity or incompetence.

Even before we learned from the shooting-down of the Ukrainian 737 my personal conclusion was that Trump is the winner of this episode (yes, domestically, as Thomas noted). Now the Iranian side looks even weaker: 50 casualties during the funeral of the general and then shooting down an aircraft with their own people or people with Iranian roots.


Respectfully disagree - the loss of the 737 was a casualty of the situation in its entirety. There is a 99.9% (probably better) chance this flight would have operated safely if:

a. the situation had not been ramped up to by the impetuousness and ‘maximum pressure’ campaign from the White House (includes unilateral junking of the JPCOA)

b. Iranian authorities, knowing they were going to retaliate (regardless of purpose - for domestic consumption etc), should have closed IKA that night and not permitted flights to depart or arrive in the period they couldn’t be certain of US response.

Any reasonable person should be able to see this distribution of responsibility that wasted 180+ lives.


Distributing responsibility always ends up with irresponsible people blaming others for their screw-ups and stupid actions. They own it themselves, no one asked anyone to retaliate for the killing of a murderous general, only themselves.


The stampede is different - they chose to stage a large gathering for public effect and at such public events stampede is often a major risk. The ethnic Iranians from Canada and other visitors on the PS flight had no reasonable inclination SAM sites would eventually pose a threat to the established commercial route they booked.

In any case you invalidated your statement with a classic absolutism fallacy. You want things that are a very complex series of actions and events to be simplified, and that just isn’t remotely close to reality.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:38 pm

What people are saying is Trump irresponsibly escalated the situation, and due to the tensions, it helped lead to an accidental shootdown.

May agree or disagree but I don't see that as crazy, flawed logic. And furthermore, I don't think anyone is saying the US is fully or even mostly to blame.

Honestly, I think it doesn't really matter... These things happen in war so let's try to avoid it instead of playing a blame game.

The only silver lining, maybe, is this seems to have dampened the saber rattling a bit (though it may have cooled down even without the shootdown)
 
tu204
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:43 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:


They own it themselves, no one asked anyone to retaliate for the killing of a murderous general, only themselves.


You kidding? The Iranians were responding, and may I say very, very lightly to the US' stupid, illegal act of aggression against them. They had and still have a moral right to off any high level U.S. official that goes visiting pretty much anywhere in the World. And they would be right about it...

*To clarify: we are talking about the missile strike against U.S. bases, not the 737.


Not disputing their retaliation, but to blame the US for this crash because they were on high alert due to their retaliation is absurd and nonsense. And as for illegal, that's up to whoever believes that.


Agreed with placing legal blame on the U.S. for the crash is kinda "out there".

However the assassination was illegal in every way, shape and form. If your belief that it was legal because he supported some organisations you view as terrorist, just switch sides here and you'll get that the U.S. did the exact same thing since the 1980's consistently, therefore U.S. officials should be fair game wherever they go, worldwide.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:45 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Respectfully disagree - the loss of the 737 was a casualty of the situation in its entirety. There is a 99.9% (probably better) chance this flight would have operated safely if:

a. the situation had not been ramped up to by the impetuousness and ‘maximum pressure’ campaign from the White House (includes unilateral junking of the JPCOA)

b. Iranian authorities, knowing they were going to retaliate (regardless of purpose - for domestic consumption etc), should have closed IKA that night and not permitted flights to depart or arrive in the period they couldn’t be certain of US response.

Any reasonable person should be able to see this distribution of responsibility that wasted 180+ lives.


Distributing responsibility always ends up with irresponsible people blaming others for their screw-ups and stupid actions. They own it themselves, no one asked anyone to retaliate for the killing of a murderous general, only themselves.


The stampede is different - they chose to stage a large gathering for public effect and at such public events stampede is often a major risk. The ethnic Iranians from Canada and other visitors on the PS flight had no reasonable inclination SAM sites would eventually pose a threat to the established commercial route they booked.

In any case you invalidated your statement with a classic absolutism fallacy. You want things that are a very complex series of actions and events to be simplified, and that just isn’t remotely close to reality.


If the US had attacked Iran's territory in the hours before this tragedy happened, you might have a point.

The absolute fact that the US did not respond to the Iranian aggression absolves the US of any indirect fault to this. Lets leave our Anti-US sentiment out of this tragedy which is solely caused by trigger happy Iranian military officials I am sure. Which they seem to be covering up till this very moment.

At least you should be angry for the cover up, but I am sure some will blame the US also for the Iranian cover up.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:51 pm

tu204 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
tu204 wrote:

You kidding? The Iranians were responding, and may I say very, very lightly to the US' stupid, illegal act of aggression against them. They had and still have a moral right to off any high level U.S. official that goes visiting pretty much anywhere in the World. And they would be right about it...

*To clarify: we are talking about the missile strike against U.S. bases, not the 737.


Not disputing their retaliation, but to blame the US for this crash because they were on high alert due to their retaliation is absurd and nonsense. And as for illegal, that's up to whoever believes that.


Agreed with placing legal blame on the U.S. for the crash is kinda "out there".

However the assassination was illegal in every way, shape and form. If your belief that it was legal because he supported some organisations you view as terrorist, just switch sides here and you'll get that the U.S. did the exact same thing since the 1980's consistently, therefore U.S. officials should be fair game wherever they go, worldwide.


Well, for one he was violating sanctions traveling to Iraq. Secondly, what was he up to in Iraq? days after an attack on the US embassy.

Should the US gvt look the other way whils Iran:

1- Shoots down a US drone.
2- An attack on an oil processing facilities in Saudi Arabia
3- A US contractor dies on a rocket attack by Pro-Iranian militias?
4- An attack on the US embassy

Should they, I bet your gvt wouldn't. You need deterrance and the General had to pay unless a bigger conflict would have emerged in the region.

The killing itself stopped a war, despite getting us close to it, Iran and Trump standing down allows for some pause in all of this, and a warning to Iran to stop their aggression.

This sends a clear message to the regime that there would be responses to their actions.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
petertenthije
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:57 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Not disputing their retaliation, but to blame the US for this crash because they were on high alert due to their retaliation is absurd and nonsense. And as for illegal, that's up to whoever believes that.
I think I found a good analogy for the situation.

Imagine you (Ukraine) are driving on the motorway. In the distance you can see an accident happened (USA).
You are a diligent driver: you manage to stop in time, you put on the hazzard lights and so on.
The driver behind you (Iran) is not paying as much attention, and drives into you.

In this situation, the USA would not be blamed for the crash. From a LEGAL point of view, the guy that crashed into the stationary car is fully to blame.

In this case as well, Iran is fully to blame.

BUT, Iran would not have "crashed their car into your car", had it not been for the traffic jam caused by the original USA accident. So while the USA are legally not to blame, they indirectly definately caused it. Without the original crash, there would have been no traffic jam and the second accident would not have occured.
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:00 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Distributing responsibility always ends up with irresponsible people blaming others for their screw-ups and stupid actions. They own it themselves, no one asked anyone to retaliate for the killing of a murderous general, only themselves.


The stampede is different - they chose to stage a large gathering for public effect and at such public events stampede is often a major risk. The ethnic Iranians from Canada and other visitors on the PS flight had no reasonable inclination SAM sites would eventually pose a threat to the established commercial route they booked.

In any case you invalidated your statement with a classic absolutism fallacy. You want things that are a very complex series of actions and events to be simplified, and that just isn’t remotely close to reality.


If the US had attacked Iran's territory in the hours before this tragedy happened, you might have a point.

The absolute fact that the US did not respond to the Iranian aggression absolves the US of any indirect fault to this. Lets leave our Anti-US sentiment out of this tragedy which is solely caused by trigger happy Iranian military officials I am sure. Which they seem to be covering up till this very moment.

At least you should be angry for the cover up, but I am sure some will blame the US also for the Iranian cover up.


It’s illogical to be angry over that which is both natural and expected - almost all governments sweep things under the rug as soon as they know it’s a gong show. As I posted before: the US understands Iran well enough to have gamed out many contingencies from junking JPCOA and applying ‘maximum pressure’ - these reactions from the Iranians are not at all aberrant or unexpected. So precipitating the entire event sequence is on the US - we violated an agreement that was already hard-won and got pissy when there was a reaction. Completely unprofessional on the WH foreign policy team’s part. That’s where their responsibility lies.

Fast forward to the other night - Iran is unsure of what US response to the Iraqi ballistics will be and has IRGC AA units in the field, jittery because they know they’ll get hit first. The prudent thing to do is to close IKA and not allow commercial activity until the Tehran area is no longer ‘active theater’.

The actions of both sides culminated in loss of the PS flight, and if they were interested in doing the right thing, they’d make that clear to the families with a sincere apology and joint compensation scheme. PS also bears some responsibility as well since nobody has a clue what their dispatchers were thinking given the situation that night. An all around shitshow by all involved that was entirely avoidable.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:03 pm

petertenthije wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Not disputing their retaliation, but to blame the US for this crash because they were on high alert due to their retaliation is absurd and nonsense. And as for illegal, that's up to whoever believes that.
I think I found a good analogy for the situation.

Imagine you (Ukraine) are driving on the motorway. In the distance you can see an accident happened (USA).
You are a diligent driver: you manage to stop in time, you put on the hazzard lights and so on.
The driver behind you (Iran) is not paying as much attention, and drives into you.

In this situation, the USA would not be blamed for the crash. From a LEGAL point of view, the guy that crashed into the stationary car is fully to blame.

In this case as well, Iran is fully to blame.

BUT, Iran would not have "crashed their car into your car", had it not been for the traffic jam caused by the original USA accident. So while the USA are legally not to blame, they indirectly definately caused it. Without the original crash, there would have been no traffic jam and the second accident would not have occured.


According to that pretense, all past actions in each individual's life would be put into question aswell. The good things and the bad things. Which might have led to an actual occurrence to happen.

We can't just question all things that happened in our lives and blame it on certain things going some other way because of other people, we make decisions every day, we own them, independently of external factors.

Its called responsibility.

The mere fact that they still deny this, makes them more culpable.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:09 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

The stampede is different - they chose to stage a large gathering for public effect and at such public events stampede is often a major risk. The ethnic Iranians from Canada and other visitors on the PS flight had no reasonable inclination SAM sites would eventually pose a threat to the established commercial route they booked.

In any case you invalidated your statement with a classic absolutism fallacy. You want things that are a very complex series of actions and events to be simplified, and that just isn’t remotely close to reality.


If the US had attacked Iran's territory in the hours before this tragedy happened, you might have a point.

The absolute fact that the US did not respond to the Iranian aggression absolves the US of any indirect fault to this. Lets leave our Anti-US sentiment out of this tragedy which is solely caused by trigger happy Iranian military officials I am sure. Which they seem to be covering up till this very moment.

At least you should be angry for the cover up, but I am sure some will blame the US also for the Iranian cover up.


It’s illogical to be angry over that which is both natural and expected - almost all governments sweep things under the rug as soon as they know it’s a gong show. As I posted before: the US understands Iran well enough to have gamed out many contingencies from junking JPCOA and applying ‘maximum pressure’ - these reactions from the Iranians are not at all aberrant or unexpected. So precipitating the entire event sequence is on the US - we violated an agreement that was already hard-won and got pissy when there was a reaction. Completely unprofessional on the WH foreign policy team’s part. That’s where their responsibility lies.

Fast forward to the other night - Iran is unsure of what US response to the Iraqi ballistics will be and has IRGC AA units in the field, jittery because they know they’ll get hit first. The prudent thing to do is to close IKA and not allow commercial activity until the Tehran area is no longer ‘active theater’.

The actions of both sides culminated in loss of the PS flight, and if they were interested in doing the right thing, they’d make that clear to the families with a sincere apology and joint compensation scheme. PS also bears some responsibility as well since nobody has a clue what their dispatchers were thinking given the situation that night. An all around shitshow by all involved that was entirely avoidable.


I have to agree to disagree with you.

Action in both sides did not lead this to happen. It was the Ayatollahs that decided on that very night to attack the US bases, not the night before or the night after, it was their expectation of an attack based on their retaliation that led them to be on high alert. Not an attack by the US hours before or after to the territory of Iran. Had they not attacked the US bases ever, perhaps this wouldn't have happened, but they chose to, who knows, perhaps this would have still have happened if they did not attack the US bases considering nothing was happening in Iran at the moment. Who knows if days after a 'mistake' would have happened.
We are still assuming this was a 'mistake' not some rogue official trying to cause chaos within the political/military structure of Iran.
Denying they made a mistake the theory it wasn't a mistake grows stronger.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
petertenthije
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:12 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
we make decisions every day, we own them, independently of external factors.

Its called responsibility.

Again, I am not saying Iran is innocent far from it. They are fully to blame.

But I do disagree with your assertion that decisions are made independent of external factors. That's just BS. Of course external factors influence your decision. That does not necesarily make the external party responsible, but keep in mind I never said so.
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:36 pm

petertenthije wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
we make decisions every day, we own them, independently of external factors.

Its called responsibility.

Again, I am not saying Iran is innocent far from it. They are fully to blame.

But I do disagree with your assertion that decisions are made independent of external factors. That's just BS. Of course external factors influence your decision. That does not necesarily make the external party responsible, but keep in mind I never said so.


You’re both correct to some degree - but we are talking about state actors, not individuals. And that’s already a different arena because state actions often carry a certain momentum and we’ve all seen how that can play out on the world stage time and again.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:35 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
we make decisions every day, we own them, independently of external factors.

Its called responsibility.

Again, I am not saying Iran is innocent far from it. They are fully to blame.

But I do disagree with your assertion that decisions are made independent of external factors. That's just BS. Of course external factors influence your decision. That does not necesarily make the external party responsible, but keep in mind I never said so.


You’re both correct to some degree - but we are talking about state actors, not individuals. And that’s already a different arena because state actions often carry a certain momentum and we’ve all seen how that can play out on the world stage time and again.


I find like in most situations, we seem to agree to the same actions when they are carried out by the side we are in favor of or sympathetic to. But when they are carried out by the other side we tend to find arguments that contradict our opinions when we support the other side doing the same thing.

Its best to see facts as they are and not 'interpret' things as you see.

Facts are facts and that's the end of the story, unless there are things we don't know.

Most people and the media is anti-American anti-West, in favor of the other side and are quick to find issues with what the west does, but are quiet when other nations do the same or worse. Lets be honest here, Iran has played out this and failed, this is a decisive victory for Trump. Even if the media and many people don't like, we need to admit that this round at very least he won. Iran looks weak, and ready to crumble out of this exercise. They have overplayed their hand and were too confident.

Only the hardliners are not allowing the sensible and rational Iranians sit down in the table. The Americans are willing to sit without any per-conditions. Which is a lot if you ask me.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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seb146
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:48 pm

Still no actual, credible threat from Iran or Soleimani

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/ ... 29572.html

But, there was something maybe that could have happened at some point in the future possibly. The evidence is razor thin. We have the same "evidence" of threats from China, DPRK, Pakistan, Mexico, Russia, Philippines, Albania, Kenya......
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
tu204
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:52 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Not disputing their retaliation, but to blame the US for this crash because they were on high alert due to their retaliation is absurd and nonsense. And as for illegal, that's up to whoever believes that.


Agreed with placing legal blame on the U.S. for the crash is kinda "out there".

However the assassination was illegal in every way, shape and form. If your belief that it was legal because he supported some organisations you view as terrorist, just switch sides here and you'll get that the U.S. did the exact same thing since the 1980's consistently, therefore U.S. officials should be fair game wherever they go, worldwide.


Well, for one he was violating sanctions traveling to Iraq. Secondly, what was he up to in Iraq? days after an attack on the US embassy.

Should the US gvt look the other way whils Iran:

1- Shoots down a US drone.
2- An attack on an oil processing facilities in Saudi Arabia
3- A US contractor dies on a rocket attack by Pro-Iranian militias?
4- An attack on the US embassy

Should they, I bet your gvt wouldn't. You need deterrance and the General had to pay unless a bigger conflict would have emerged in the region.

The killing itself stopped a war, despite getting us close to it, Iran and Trump standing down allows for some pause in all of this, and a warning to Iran to stop their aggression.

This sends a clear message to the regime that there would be responses to their actions.


Cool, I like this. An educated debate unlike most shitflinging that such threads usually turn into.

First off, the sanctions by the U.S. vs. Iran after the U.S. backed out of the 2015 agreement can be interpreted as a blockade, which in turn is considered an act of war. So that alone unties Iran's hands when it comes to funding and coordinating groups fighting the U.S. presense in Iraq and Syria.
That brings us to another point, maybe not a legal one, but a moral one.

The United States illegally (and under false and misleading pretenses) invaded Iraq back in 2003. Since then it is the U.S. that has been on Iran's doorstep and 10,000km away from theirs. Iranians have much more of a right to lets say get involved in Iraqi affairs for ethnic and religious reasons than the U.S. does (btw, why is the U.S. in Iraq anyways?). So you can't really blame them for getting involved in Iraq, on their doorstep with some similar interests, than the U.S. which is half a world away.

We can go further back to the 1950's when the United States started directly interefering in Iranian internal affairs and causing them a whole lot of hell.

But in any case, the balance of right and wrong, in my opinion is definately in favour of Iran being right, and the U.S. being wrong.

This is a very grey area here, there have been a shitload of violations of what we percieve as International Law by both parties and depending on where you place the "Start" line, either party can be considered as guilty of starting the conflict, and the other as simply responding to the first action. And then the escalation begins of course.

As your point of what would my government do? Well, something similar I bet, however not with such blatant disregard for reality with such rash actions. There was that time back in the 2000's that Chechen terrorist Yamadaev was assasinated in Qatar, but that was done at least more discretely, by car bomb and at least Russia officialy said "Wasn't us."
Had something similar happened here it wouldn't have been viewed as such a blatant act of agression, spitting and shitting all over the sovreignty of Iraq.
P.R. wise it would have been much better, wouldn't have pretty much all of Iraq and Iran united in the hatred for the U.S. and kicking them out right now.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:02 pm

tu204 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Agreed with placing legal blame on the U.S. for the crash is kinda "out there".

However the assassination was illegal in every way, shape and form. If your belief that it was legal because he supported some organisations you view as terrorist, just switch sides here and you'll get that the U.S. did the exact same thing since the 1980's consistently, therefore U.S. officials should be fair game wherever they go, worldwide.


Well, for one he was violating sanctions traveling to Iraq. Secondly, what was he up to in Iraq? days after an attack on the US embassy.

Should the US gvt look the other way whils Iran:

1- Shoots down a US drone.
2- An attack on an oil processing facilities in Saudi Arabia
3- A US contractor dies on a rocket attack by Pro-Iranian militias?
4- An attack on the US embassy

Should they, I bet your gvt wouldn't. You need deterrance and the General had to pay unless a bigger conflict would have emerged in the region.

The killing itself stopped a war, despite getting us close to it, Iran and Trump standing down allows for some pause in all of this, and a warning to Iran to stop their aggression.

This sends a clear message to the regime that there would be responses to their actions.


Cool, I like this. An educated debate unlike most shitflinging that such threads usually turn into.

First off, the sanctions by the U.S. vs. Iran after the U.S. backed out of the 2015 agreement can be interpreted as a blockade, which in turn is considered an act of war. So that alone unties Iran's hands when it comes to funding and coordinating groups fighting the U.S. presense in Iraq and Syria.
That brings us to another point, maybe not a legal one, but a moral one.

The United States illegally (and under false and misleading pretenses) invaded Iraq back in 2003. Since then it is the U.S. that has been on Iran's doorstep and 10,000km away from theirs. Iranians have much more of a right to lets say get involved in Iraqi affairs for ethnic and religious reasons than the U.S. does (btw, why is the U.S. in Iraq anyways?). So you can't really blame them for getting involved in Iraq, on their doorstep with some similar interests, than the U.S. which is half a world away.

We can go further back to the 1950's when the United States started directly interefering in Iranian internal affairs and causing them a whole lot of hell.

But in any case, the balance of right and wrong, in my opinion is definately in favour of Iran being right, and the U.S. being wrong.

This is a very grey area here, there have been a shitload of violations of what we percieve as International Law by both parties and depending on where you place the "Start" line, either party can be considered as guilty of starting the conflict, and the other as simply responding to the first action. And then the escalation begins of course.

As your point of what would my government do? Well, something similar I bet, however not with such blatant disregard for reality with such rash actions. There was that time back in the 2000's that Chechen terrorist Yamadaev was assasinated in Qatar, but that was done at least more discretely, by car bomb and at least Russia officialy said "Wasn't us."
Had something similar happened here it wouldn't have been viewed as such a blatant act of agression, spitting and shitting all over the sovreignty of Iraq.
P.R. wise it would have been much better, wouldn't have pretty much all of Iraq and Iran united in the hatred for the U.S. and kicking them out right now.


Sure I welcome the debate too.

As for Iraq, believe me when I tell you I agree it was a horrible mistake going after Saddam. I wouldn't have done that, and that led to many of the many issues the region has today. I would have left Saddam there and Mubarak and Qaddafi too. Which to many Iranians getting Saddam out was a welcoming event, they hated him for ever, not only for the war but for a lot of reasons as well. This helped Iran step into the vacuum left by getting Saddam out.

In turn Iraq has had Pro-Iranian governments ever since, and that's one of the unfortunate results of the 2003 war.

Many mistakes in the US side no doubt, as well as the Iranian nuclear deal, another mistake. Bush, Obama and now Trump is left here as the saviour trying to take us out of these stupid wars and accords which made no sense.

Trusting Iran whom for decades have wanted to export their revolution across the region, funding terrorism even before the US stepped foot in Iraq.

Now I wont ever say, lets give 'human right's priority and such, you can't force things to other nations, I believe the US can't be isolationist but also can't be involved in multiple quagmires that can't get out of.

Now lets keep hearing the same argument, US bad, Iran good. I am sure most people here in the US who say this (which are a lot) are willing to take a one way ticket to those nations... lets see how they do.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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seb146
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:07 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Now lets keep hearing the same argument, US bad, Iran good. I am sure most people here in the US who say this (which are a lot) are willing to take a one way ticket to those nations... lets see how they do.


I keep hearing Republicans and MAGA fans and righties repeat this lie. What we have been hearing from Democrats is Soleimani never should have been assassinated. Please explain how that is "US bad, Iran good"?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:21 pm

seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Now lets keep hearing the same argument, US bad, Iran good. I am sure most people here in the US who say this (which are a lot) are willing to take a one way ticket to those nations... lets see how they do.


I keep hearing Republicans and MAGA fans and righties repeat this lie. What we have been hearing from Democrats is Soleimani never should have been assassinated. Please explain how that is "US bad, Iran good"?


Well, for starters the Dem's are already saying that the downing of the Ukrainian aircraft was 'collateral damage caused by Trump' as said by a Dem congresswoman. These are the lies being repeated all over and we are reading them everywhere now.

Another being 'outraged' by the killing of the general.

All of the sudden all of these people were good and we only made it worse.

Now sanctions is also an act of ware by some on the left here, but those same ones are hoping for sanctions against Israel, which is our natural ally in the region.

Lets be real here, the Iranians chant 'Death to America', where in the US has anyone chanted death to 'Iran'. No place. So lets stop living in fairy-tale land and think that our enemies are good people, because they are not. The Iranian government is not out there looking to have a tea parties with us. Nope.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
tu204
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:10 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Well, for one he was violating sanctions traveling to Iraq. Secondly, what was he up to in Iraq? days after an attack on the US embassy.

Should the US gvt look the other way whils Iran:

1- Shoots down a US drone.
2- An attack on an oil processing facilities in Saudi Arabia
3- A US contractor dies on a rocket attack by Pro-Iranian militias?
4- An attack on the US embassy

Should they, I bet your gvt wouldn't. You need deterrance and the General had to pay unless a bigger conflict would have emerged in the region.

The killing itself stopped a war, despite getting us close to it, Iran and Trump standing down allows for some pause in all of this, and a warning to Iran to stop their aggression.

This sends a clear message to the regime that there would be responses to their actions.


Cool, I like this. An educated debate unlike most shitflinging that such threads usually turn into.

First off, the sanctions by the U.S. vs. Iran after the U.S. backed out of the 2015 agreement can be interpreted as a blockade, which in turn is considered an act of war. So that alone unties Iran's hands when it comes to funding and coordinating groups fighting the U.S. presense in Iraq and Syria.
That brings us to another point, maybe not a legal one, but a moral one.

The United States illegally (and under false and misleading pretenses) invaded Iraq back in 2003. Since then it is the U.S. that has been on Iran's doorstep and 10,000km away from theirs. Iranians have much more of a right to lets say get involved in Iraqi affairs for ethnic and religious reasons than the U.S. does (btw, why is the U.S. in Iraq anyways?). So you can't really blame them for getting involved in Iraq, on their doorstep with some similar interests, than the U.S. which is half a world away.

We can go further back to the 1950's when the United States started directly interefering in Iranian internal affairs and causing them a whole lot of hell.

But in any case, the balance of right and wrong, in my opinion is definately in favour of Iran being right, and the U.S. being wrong.

This is a very grey area here, there have been a shitload of violations of what we percieve as International Law by both parties and depending on where you place the "Start" line, either party can be considered as guilty of starting the conflict, and the other as simply responding to the first action. And then the escalation begins of course.

As your point of what would my government do? Well, something similar I bet, however not with such blatant disregard for reality with such rash actions. There was that time back in the 2000's that Chechen terrorist Yamadaev was assasinated in Qatar, but that was done at least more discretely, by car bomb and at least Russia officialy said "Wasn't us."
Had something similar happened here it wouldn't have been viewed as such a blatant act of agression, spitting and shitting all over the sovreignty of Iraq.
P.R. wise it would have been much better, wouldn't have pretty much all of Iraq and Iran united in the hatred for the U.S. and kicking them out right now.


Sure I welcome the debate too.

As for Iraq, believe me when I tell you I agree it was a horrible mistake going after Saddam. I wouldn't have done that, and that led to many of the many issues the region has today. I would have left Saddam there and Mubarak and Qaddafi too. Which to many Iranians getting Saddam out was a welcoming event, they hated him for ever, not only for the war but for a lot of reasons as well. This helped Iran step into the vacuum left by getting Saddam out.

In turn Iraq has had Pro-Iranian governments ever since, and that's one of the unfortunate results of the 2003 war.

Many mistakes in the US side no doubt, as well as the Iranian nuclear deal, another mistake. Bush, Obama and now Trump is left here as the saviour trying to take us out of these stupid wars and accords which made no sense.

Trusting Iran whom for decades have wanted to export their revolution across the region, funding terrorism even before the US stepped foot in Iraq.

Now I wont ever say, lets give 'human right's priority and such, you can't force things to other nations, I believe the US can't be isolationist but also can't be involved in multiple quagmires that can't get out of.

Now lets keep hearing the same argument, US bad, Iran good. I am sure most people here in the US who say this (which are a lot) are willing to take a one way ticket to those nations... lets see how they do.

Well after the invasion of Iraq, what more could one expect? Unrealistic to think that Iraqis would welcome a foreign invasion that destroyed their country. I spoke to an Iraqi medical student that I was giving a lift to here in Russia through BlaBlaCar and we had a nice 2 hour chat. Let's just say he wasn't the greatest fan of the U.S. Obviously he blamed the U.S. for all problems, be it what the U.S. invasion brought on or whatever issues those guys had in the past. So it isn't hard to figure that they would be pro-any force that is against the U.S., it just happened to be the Iranians. As you noticed, it was the U.S.' own actions that raised Iran's influence in the area. Before that they weren't having much luck finding followers. Now they have millions.

As far as human rights go, thats their internal matter, as far as I am concerned. What they do in their home is their business. I have worked the last 2,5 years in the ME and learnt and respected the fact that they do it their own way, they have their culture and their religion. Yeah, I wasn't too happy having to wear pants rather than shorts when it was +50 in Khartoum, but thats their way and I didn't say anything about it. I do have an issue though when people from the ME come to Russia or Canada and are upset that women dress so freely/you can buy booze anywhere/etc. Don't like it? Go to where you came from. I don't go to your home saying how you should live, please do the same with my home. One of the reasons I left Canada actually. Christmas Tree = Holiday Tree? Get real! Many problems here, butt least here in Russia people don't bend over like they do back in Canada not to "offend" someone that is really pushing the limits.

But I can, as an observer see the whole situation developing and see that U.S. is in the wrong and Iran is in the right. I am not saying anyone from either side should emmigrate anywhere or something else. You have two sides and regardless of their own domestic problems, one side is clearly playing it's cards wrong. In my opinion.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:18 pm

tu204 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
tu204 wrote:

Cool, I like this. An educated debate unlike most shitflinging that such threads usually turn into.

First off, the sanctions by the U.S. vs. Iran after the U.S. backed out of the 2015 agreement can be interpreted as a blockade, which in turn is considered an act of war. So that alone unties Iran's hands when it comes to funding and coordinating groups fighting the U.S. presense in Iraq and Syria.
That brings us to another point, maybe not a legal one, but a moral one.

The United States illegally (and under false and misleading pretenses) invaded Iraq back in 2003. Since then it is the U.S. that has been on Iran's doorstep and 10,000km away from theirs. Iranians have much more of a right to lets say get involved in Iraqi affairs for ethnic and religious reasons than the U.S. does (btw, why is the U.S. in Iraq anyways?). So you can't really blame them for getting involved in Iraq, on their doorstep with some similar interests, than the U.S. which is half a world away.

We can go further back to the 1950's when the United States started directly interefering in Iranian internal affairs and causing them a whole lot of hell.

But in any case, the balance of right and wrong, in my opinion is definately in favour of Iran being right, and the U.S. being wrong.

This is a very grey area here, there have been a shitload of violations of what we percieve as International Law by both parties and depending on where you place the "Start" line, either party can be considered as guilty of starting the conflict, and the other as simply responding to the first action. And then the escalation begins of course.

As your point of what would my government do? Well, something similar I bet, however not with such blatant disregard for reality with such rash actions. There was that time back in the 2000's that Chechen terrorist Yamadaev was assasinated in Qatar, but that was done at least more discretely, by car bomb and at least Russia officialy said "Wasn't us."
Had something similar happened here it wouldn't have been viewed as such a blatant act of agression, spitting and shitting all over the sovreignty of Iraq.
P.R. wise it would have been much better, wouldn't have pretty much all of Iraq and Iran united in the hatred for the U.S. and kicking them out right now.


Sure I welcome the debate too.

As for Iraq, believe me when I tell you I agree it was a horrible mistake going after Saddam. I wouldn't have done that, and that led to many of the many issues the region has today. I would have left Saddam there and Mubarak and Qaddafi too. Which to many Iranians getting Saddam out was a welcoming event, they hated him for ever, not only for the war but for a lot of reasons as well. This helped Iran step into the vacuum left by getting Saddam out.

In turn Iraq has had Pro-Iranian governments ever since, and that's one of the unfortunate results of the 2003 war.

Many mistakes in the US side no doubt, as well as the Iranian nuclear deal, another mistake. Bush, Obama and now Trump is left here as the saviour trying to take us out of these stupid wars and accords which made no sense.

Trusting Iran whom for decades have wanted to export their revolution across the region, funding terrorism even before the US stepped foot in Iraq.

Now I wont ever say, lets give 'human right's priority and such, you can't force things to other nations, I believe the US can't be isolationist but also can't be involved in multiple quagmires that can't get out of.

Now lets keep hearing the same argument, US bad, Iran good. I am sure most people here in the US who say this (which are a lot) are willing to take a one way ticket to those nations... lets see how they do.

Well after the invasion of Iraq, what more could one expect? Unrealistic to think that Iraqis would welcome a foreign invasion that destroyed their country. I spoke to an Iraqi medical student that I was giving a lift to here in Russia through BlaBlaCar and we had a nice 2 hour chat. Let's just say he wasn't the greatest fan of the U.S. Obviously he blamed the U.S. for all problems, be it what the U.S. invasion brought on or whatever issues those guys had in the past. So it isn't hard to figure that they would be pro-any force that is against the U.S., it just happened to be the Iranians. As you noticed, it was the U.S.' own actions that raised Iran's influence in the area. Before that they weren't having much luck finding followers. Now they have millions.

As far as human rights go, thats their internal matter, as far as I am concerned. What they do in their home is their business. I have worked the last 2,5 years in the ME and learnt and respected the fact that they do it their own way, they have their culture and their religion. Yeah, I wasn't too happy having to wear pants rather than shorts when it was +50 in Khartoum, but thats their way and I didn't say anything about it. I do have an issue though when people from the ME come to Russia or Canada and are upset that women dress so freely/you can buy booze anywhere/etc. Don't like it? Go to where you came from. I don't go to your home saying how you should live, please do the same with my home. One of the reasons I left Canada actually. Christmas Tree = Holiday Tree? Get real! Many problems here, butt least here in Russia people don't bend over like they do back in Canada not to "offend" someone that is really pushing the limits.

But I can, as an observer see the whole situation developing and see that U.S. is in the wrong and Iran is in the right. I am not saying anyone from either side should emmigrate anywhere or something else. You have two sides and regardless of their own domestic problems, one side is clearly playing it's cards wrong. In my opinion.


Iraq was a mistake.

And the current administration is not seeking regime change in Iran. The main issue here is how Iran has been for decades playing evil around the region, and everyone knows that, funding terrorist organizations, the war in Yemen, etc. They really want to be a regional player, and I am sure you know the US is not their main enemy there. We did the job of removing an enemy they had in Iraq, but their plan goes far ahead than that, and you know what I mean with KSA.

Iran is a murderous and terrorist regime. The dictatorship is clinging to power as much as they can, they could fall without the US having to do the same as what they did in Iraq. And most Americans' don't want any involvement nor any more wars, I could attest to that.

What we did with the General is I think the way forward into deterrence, and I am sure the Ayatollahs got the message.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21228
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:47 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Now lets keep hearing the same argument, US bad, Iran good. I am sure most people here in the US who say this (which are a lot) are willing to take a one way ticket to those nations... lets see how they do.


I keep hearing Republicans and MAGA fans and righties repeat this lie. What we have been hearing from Democrats is Soleimani never should have been assassinated. Please explain how that is "US bad, Iran good"?


Well, for starters the Dem's are already saying that the downing of the Ukrainian aircraft was 'collateral damage caused by Trump' as said by a Dem congresswoman. These are the lies being repeated all over and we are reading them everywhere now.

Another being 'outraged' by the killing of the general.

All of the sudden all of these people were good and we only made it worse.

Now sanctions is also an act of ware by some on the left here, but those same ones are hoping for sanctions against Israel, which is our natural ally in the region.

Lets be real here, the Iranians chant 'Death to America', where in the US has anyone chanted death to 'Iran'. No place. So lets stop living in fairy-tale land and think that our enemies are good people, because they are not. The Iranian government is not out there looking to have a tea parties with us. Nope.


I should have been absolutely crystal clear about this: Can you please post links to any Democrat mourning the loss of the Iranian general and the other Iraqi personnel who were killed?

If the occupant of the White House had not called for the missile strike on Iraq and killed the Iranian general, the Ukrainian jet would not have been shot down. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 4409
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:02 pm

How is the shoot down of an airliner 800 miles from the the missile strike on Soleimani, days later a foreseeable outcome. There’s no connection there. Oh, BTW, why would a Iranian 2-star commander of IRGC even be in Iraq in violation of sanctions?
 
sonicruiser
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 am

Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:39 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
How is the shoot down of an airliner 800 miles from the the missile strike on Soleimani, days later a foreseeable outcome. There’s no connection there. Oh, BTW, why would a Iranian 2-star commander of IRGC even be in Iraq in violation of sanctions?


No connection? The fact that we're discussing a shootdown in Tehran in the same thread as a strike on Soleimani speaks volumes.

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