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Jouhou
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:31 am

BN747 wrote:
Well now...this can't be good,

Blackwater founder Erik Prince pushed Trump allies to assassinate Gen. Suleimani: Mueller documents
https://www.rawstory.com/2020/01/blackw ... documents/

...you know when that guy has anything to do with anything, it's shady AF at the very least and the worst case scenario are best odds on the outcome.


There is always 'more to it' when looking into any trump action and illegality is never far behind or already seasoned into whatever scheme was cooking on the grill at the time.

BN747


It's unfortunate he's never done prison time for any of the things he's done.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 197
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:25 pm

LMP737 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Lets stop pretending these are good people alright?


Really? Which people are you referring to? Are you talking about all the Iranian people? Did you see a video of some Iranians chanting "Death to America" and decide all Iranians think the same? If that's the case, there's a word for that.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
They also chant “death to America”... not something nice people do, aside from killing Americans, are you so naive to think we arent in some form of war? They are our enemies, the have sworn that


Are so naive to apply the same label to an entire group of people based on what you have seen on TV? And if they are our sworn enemy and we are at "some form of war" I suggest you prepare to defend our country and enlist.

P.S. How many Americans have been killed by Saudi nationals compared with Iranian?



The Iranian people are good people, I meant obviously the government officials.

Which appear to have more fans in this forum than in Iran itself.

Anyways the General getting killed in Iraq was fair game, he wasnt a diplomat nor a culture minister but rather the head of one of Iran’s more brutal military forces in an area of military conflict.

We can keep defending Iran all we want bur we can all agree they arent a friendly nation to the US, and we need not declare war on them in order to act, last time the US declared war was almost 80 years ago.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:54 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
LMP737 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Lets stop pretending these are good people alright?


Really? Which people are you referring to? Are you talking about all the Iranian people? Did you see a video of some Iranians chanting "Death to America" and decide all Iranians think the same? If that's the case, there's a word for that.

AirWorthy99 wrote:
They also chant “death to America”... not something nice people do, aside from killing Americans, are you so naive to think we arent in some form of war? They are our enemies, the have sworn that


Are so naive to apply the same label to an entire group of people based on what you have seen on TV? And if they are our sworn enemy and we are at "some form of war" I suggest you prepare to defend our country and enlist.

P.S. How many Americans have been killed by Saudi nationals compared with Iranian?



The Iranian people are good people, I meant obviously the government officials.

Which appear to have more fans in this forum than in Iran itself.

Anyways the General getting killed in Iraq was fair game, he wasnt a diplomat nor a culture minister but rather the head of one of Iran’s more brutal military forces in an area of military conflict.

We can keep defending Iran all we want bur we can all agree they arent a friendly nation to the US, and we need not declare war on them in order to act, last time the US declared war was almost 80 years ago.


Interesting...that’s exactly what their officials said - they don’t like our leaders, and have no beef with our people either. So it’s just a pissmatch between two small groups of powerful people, dragging the rest of us along...kinda dumb, no?

And interesting that you glossed over the facts I gave you regarding what they actually said about Israel - nobody is a fan of the regime in Tehran here, but some of us are interested in the factual world as-is, not propaganda that serves agendas. That’s why a link to the actual translation from Persian is so helpful.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 197
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:13 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
LMP737 wrote:

Really? Which people are you referring to? Are you talking about all the Iranian people? Did you see a video of some Iranians chanting "Death to America" and decide all Iranians think the same? If that's the case, there's a word for that.



Are so naive to apply the same label to an entire group of people based on what you have seen on TV? And if they are our sworn enemy and we are at "some form of war" I suggest you prepare to defend our country and enlist.

P.S. How many Americans have been killed by Saudi nationals compared with Iranian?



The Iranian people are good people, I meant obviously the government officials.

Which appear to have more fans in this forum than in Iran itself.

Anyways the General getting killed in Iraq was fair game, he wasnt a diplomat nor a culture minister but rather the head of one of Iran’s more brutal military forces in an area of military conflict.

We can keep defending Iran all we want bur we can all agree they arent a friendly nation to the US, and we need not declare war on them in order to act, last time the US declared war was almost 80 years ago.


Interesting...that’s exactly what their officials said - they don’t like our leaders, and have no beef with our people either. So it’s just a pissmatch between two small groups of powerful people, dragging the rest of us along...kinda dumb, no?

And interesting that you glossed over the facts I gave you regarding what they actually said about Israel - nobody is a fan of the regime in Tehran here, but some of us are interested in the factual world as-is, not propaganda that serves agendas. That’s why a link to the actual translation from Persian is so helpful.


That's a lot of naiveté in your part. Fed in part by our post modernist propaganda being fed to us daily.

The Iranian government did not deny what that man said, because frankly that's their policy, and unless we are blind we can't see how Hezbollah has for a long time waged war against Israel, funded and supported by Iran. So yes not only the discourse, the actions, the way it works, Iran wants Israel wiped out completely.

I am not a fan of the KSA, but Israel is the only democratic nation in the region, and they don't act with proxies. As far as I know Israel is America's natural ally, and don't see why defending them is wrong. And them saying they wish to destroy Israel, makes them equal to me and many, as Nazis.

Other than that, to think that the regime is looking out for Israel and hoping the best, its completely absurd and you know that.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:40 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:


The Iranian people are good people, I meant obviously the government officials.

Which appear to have more fans in this forum than in Iran itself.

Anyways the General getting killed in Iraq was fair game, he wasnt a diplomat nor a culture minister but rather the head of one of Iran’s more brutal military forces in an area of military conflict.

We can keep defending Iran all we want bur we can all agree they arent a friendly nation to the US, and we need not declare war on them in order to act, last time the US declared war was almost 80 years ago.


Interesting...that’s exactly what their officials said - they don’t like our leaders, and have no beef with our people either. So it’s just a pissmatch between two small groups of powerful people, dragging the rest of us along...kinda dumb, no?

And interesting that you glossed over the facts I gave you regarding what they actually said about Israel - nobody is a fan of the regime in Tehran here, but some of us are interested in the factual world as-is, not propaganda that serves agendas. That’s why a link to the actual translation from Persian is so helpful.


That's a lot of naiveté in your part. Fed in part by our post modernist propaganda being fed to us daily.

The Iranian government did not deny what that man said, because frankly that's their policy, and unless we are blind we can't see how Hezbollah has for a long time waged war against Israel, funded and supported by Iran. So yes not only the discourse, the actions, the way it works, Iran wants Israel wiped out completely.

I am not a fan of the KSA, but Israel is the only democratic nation in the region, and they don't act with proxies. As far as I know Israel is America's natural ally, and don't see why defending them is wrong. And them saying they wish to destroy Israel, makes them equal to me and many, as Nazis.

Other than that, to think that the regime is looking out for Israel and hoping the best, its completely absurd and you know that.


Nobody said they are ‘looking out for’ Israel - but there is a realpolitik element at play here. You are trying to simplify everything into black and white, which doesn’t exist in geopolitics.

As to the rest, you need to clarify and establish context or nobody knows what you’re talking about. Who is ‘that man’?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:50 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Interesting...that’s exactly what their officials said - they don’t like our leaders, and have no beef with our people either. So it’s just a pissmatch between two small groups of powerful people, dragging the rest of us along...kinda dumb, no?

And interesting that you glossed over the facts I gave you regarding what they actually said about Israel - nobody is a fan of the regime in Tehran here, but some of us are interested in the factual world as-is, not propaganda that serves agendas. That’s why a link to the actual translation from Persian is so helpful.


That's a lot of naiveté in your part. Fed in part by our post modernist propaganda being fed to us daily.

The Iranian government did not deny what that man said, because frankly that's their policy, and unless we are blind we can't see how Hezbollah has for a long time waged war against Israel, funded and supported by Iran. So yes not only the discourse, the actions, the way it works, Iran wants Israel wiped out completely.

I am not a fan of the KSA, but Israel is the only democratic nation in the region, and they don't act with proxies. As far as I know Israel is America's natural ally, and don't see why defending them is wrong. And them saying they wish to destroy Israel, makes them equal to me and many, as Nazis.

Other than that, to think that the regime is looking out for Israel and hoping the best, its completely absurd and you know that.


Nobody said they are ‘looking out for’ Israel - but there is a realpolitik element at play here. You are trying to simplify everything into black and white, which doesn’t exist in geopolitics.

As to the rest, you need to clarify and establish context or nobody knows what you’re talking about. Who is ‘that man’?


The man who called for Israel to be wiped out of earth, and you found a way to sugarcoat his words. That's Iranian regime policy and you can't deny that.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:59 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

That's a lot of naiveté in your part. Fed in part by our post modernist propaganda being fed to us daily.

The Iranian government did not deny what that man said, because frankly that's their policy, and unless we are blind we can't see how Hezbollah has for a long time waged war against Israel, funded and supported by Iran. So yes not only the discourse, the actions, the way it works, Iran wants Israel wiped out completely.

I am not a fan of the KSA, but Israel is the only democratic nation in the region, and they don't act with proxies. As far as I know Israel is America's natural ally, and don't see why defending them is wrong. And them saying they wish to destroy Israel, makes them equal to me and many, as Nazis.

Other than that, to think that the regime is looking out for Israel and hoping the best, its completely absurd and you know that.


Nobody said they are ‘looking out for’ Israel - but there is a realpolitik element at play here. You are trying to simplify everything into black and white, which doesn’t exist in geopolitics.

As to the rest, you need to clarify and establish context or nobody knows what you’re talking about. Who is ‘that man’?


The man who called for Israel to be wiped out of earth, and you found a way to sugarcoat his words. That's Iranian regime policy and you can't deny that.


The man has a name and I didn’t change the words or modify them in any way. Let me spell it out at kindygarten level: then-President Ahmedinejad said what he said - on video at the time - and US media and officials in the 43 administration twisted the comment to make it sound more extreme than it was. This is according to a linked article from an Iranian source that provides a literal translation from Farsi to English, word for word. The writer is an overseas Iranian who opposes both the regime and foreign interference. Everything was put out in the open.

Just because facts don’t comport with your bias does not make the facts presented ‘sugarcoated’. That is an appeal to emotion logical fallacy which invalidates your statement.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:11 pm

You seem to find ways to actually defend what he said or the way he said it, even if the regime never denied it.

The fact is out there to see, and his words have been traduced to actions for years.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:19 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
With protests anew in Iran, Soleimani’s death probably made life safer for the protesters, not to mention others across the ME. No Americans have been injured since the action. I’m willing to consider the possibility the protest lead to the fall of the mullahs. Not sure how it will go, but they’re in a precarious position with the public, is this Chernobyl for them?

GF


I doubt killing Soleimani changes anything or saves any American lives. The US acts as if Soleimani's successor won't continue the same plans they had before. Soleimani had close calls with death before, his successor was named roughly 10 min after he died so Iran had prepared for it. All his assassination did was wreak chaos in an even more unstable Middle East, and now gives Iran more incentive to develop a nuclear weapon. Iran views Pompeo as responsible for numerous Iranian deaths from sanctions the way the US views Soleimani as responsible for US deaths. Many Iranians and Shias in general who are directly threatened by Sunni extremism supported by the Saudis didn't think the US was doing enough to counter ISIS compared to Soleimani, and the US demonized Shias while getting in bed with Sunnis. Despite what most Americans believe, it is not Iran but rather Saudi funding the enemies of the US. When was the last time you heard of a Shia or Iranian attack on US soil? Or anywhere for that matter? Never. When was the last time you heard of a Saudi attack on US soil? To put it bluntly, the US did not do enough to fight ISIS due to its close ties with the House of Saud and unwillingness to clamp down on Sunni extremism, there are literally videos of them driving around in Humvees and all kinds of US military equipment. How the hell ISIS got ahold of US military equipment, I have absolutely no clue. But it is hard evidence that the US was doing a piss poor job of fighting ISIS. People take it for granted that ISIS is gone. But for better or worse, many Sunni countries did absolutely nothing to stop it, at best they didn't care, at worst, they were funding it. When ISIS captured towns and indoctrinated the population, they didn't have any textbooks, so they downloaded electronic PDF's of Saudi textbooks and taught from that. So much for being America's top ally against terror. The US makes a distinction between the actions of the Saudi gov't and ISIS, but there is not much of a distinction, ideologically, they are more similar than people think. The only reason ISIS can exist at all is because they have the support of Saudi Arabia that itself follows the extremist ideology that inspired ISIS. And after all of that, Saudi is still unequivocally America's top regional ally. While Saudi looked the other way at Sunni extremism, Iran became enemy #1 of ISIS. Iran, being the only powerful Shia country, was practically the only country that committed large national resources to wipe out and put a tight lid on Sunni/Saudi extremism on a scale that only a powerful country could mobilize and coordinate. It should not be taken for granted that someone else would've done it. To be clear, ISIS is a virulent strain of the most extremist Sunni ideologies, 99.9% of average Sunni Muslims are normal people in your office or your local grocery store like anyone else. But Sunni governments, especially Saudi Arabia funded these extremist elements to gain power until wiped out by the enemy of Sunni extremism such as ISIS, by their No.1 enemy, majority Shia Iran. After defeating ISIS, in the absence of anyone else, Iran filled that power vacuum. Iran didn't get powerful by invading other countries like the US, they got powerful by spreading proxies and making connections with real people across the region. Soleimani wasn't feared by America because he killed Americans, he was feared because he had real and powerful friends in the Middle East who were loyal to him and which Iran could depend on to support them. The US needs to forget about pleasing Arab Gulf monarchies and make the Middle Eastern PEOPLE their friend like Iran rather than killing them en masse in never ending protracted wars all across the Middle East if it ever hopes to reduce Iranian influence. The US should withdraw troops and start investing capital into those countries and make some real allies. Build some schools and educate children, construct some hospitals for the sick and injured, win the hearts of the people through soft power so those countries can rebuild like Germany and Japan. It will be cheaper and more effective at increasing American popularity than spending trillions to keep existing wars running. Guess what? Iran has already been building schools and hospitals across the region to win the hearts and loyalty of people to make some proxy allies while America is asleep at the wheel and continues to go on a bombing campaign to test out the latest products of its military industrial complex. Iran's influence will reduce in the absence of an enemy to rally people against. Hard power with drone strikes will not make the US the friend of anyone in the Middle East and will only strengthen Iran. Even now, the US and the Saudis still don't get it. The US killed 60 Afghan civilians in a drone strike yesterday as "collateral damage" and continues to support the Saudi war in Yemen. And people still wonder where anti-American sentiment comes from. Iran is taking advantage of anti-American sentiment in the region, but they aren't creating it. People whose families are killed by US drone strikes and wars in the region have a reason to oppose US presence in the region, it is not a mystery why Iran has become so powerful as the force leading the charge against US presence in the Middle East. I hate to say it, but Iran is better at making friends with people in the region than the US. The support of allies is much more impactful than the fear of being killed. It is a Machiavellian situation of would you rather fear being betrayed by the US or be respected by Iran. Yemenis hated the Saudis/Americans and Iran took advantage of it. Lebanese hated Israelis for invading and Iran took advantage of it. Iraqis hated US for invading and Iran took advantage of it. Both sides view the other side as an enemy, killing the leader of either side is not justified no matter how much you hate them. The shaky intel that led to his assassination was doubted by people in Trump's own administration, tantamount to WMD's in Iraq. I heard I think it was Richard Haas that said Iran was not an uninheritable situation when Trump became President. If he abided by the JCPOA, the current crisis would not have any reason to foment. Iran wasn't like Afghanistan or Syria because it wasn't a crisis when he became President. They exhibited a total and utter lack of any common sense in the administration's Iran policy in withdrawing from the JCPOA, especially when Iran was acknowledged by every major international body to have been abiding by the JCPOA. It was beyond foolish to think maximum pressure was ever going to work, Iran would never back down after surviving sanctions and witnessing the spectacular implosion of US foreign policy over the last 4 decades. Why would maximum pressure work now? Regime change and the fall of the gov't as you mention is exactly what led to the 1979 Revolution that ousted the US from Iran. The only reform that will come in Iran will be from within, and the consent of its own people. The JCPOA was a comprehensive multilateral solution to a major US foreign policy issue for decades and hated practically only by Israel and Saudi Arabia who Trump is in bed with.


I’ll read it, when you write it in a readable fashion.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:29 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
You seem to find ways to actually defend what he said or the way he said it, even if the regime never denied it.

The fact is out there to see, and his words have been traduced to actions for years.


Setting the record straight back to facts instead of misinformation and propaganda is not ‘defense’. Defense would be saying the regime is amazing, has done more good than bad, is worthy of respect, yada yada. Nobody here is saying such things.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
NIKV69
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:54 pm

N583JB wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Which statement? That Iran admitted it mistakenly shot down the jet or that people are in the wrong place at the wrong time?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/iran ... e-n1113996


I quoted your post. Jeez. You equated that shooting down a civilian aircraft to killings that happen in the US all the time and nobody bats an eye. Please provide examples.


I'm also curious about this one. Has the US military ever shot down a civilian plane over US soil?


Well he don't have an answer so I would only guess no. It was an irresponsible statement.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
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seb146
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:06 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

I quoted your post. Jeez. You equated that shooting down a civilian aircraft to killings that happen in the US all the time and nobody bats an eye. Please provide examples.


I'm also curious about this one. Has the US military ever shot down a civilian plane over US soil?


Well he don't have an answer so I would only guess no. It was an irresponsible statement.


I said people are in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't know how you all twisted that to "American military constantly shoots down airliners over the United States".
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:08 pm

Defense Secretary Mark Esper did not actually see any credible evidence about attacks on embassies

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mark-esp ... CIe_6IalsM

But, that was enough evidence to assassinate an Iranian general and Iraqi military leaders.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
N583JB
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:40 pm

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

I'm also curious about this one. Has the US military ever shot down a civilian plane over US soil?


Well he don't have an answer so I would only guess no. It was an irresponsible statement.


I said people are in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't know how you all twisted that to "American military constantly shoots down airliners over the United States".


Your exact words were "The jet was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Those killings happen all the time in the United States and no one bats an eye."

What "killings" are you referring to? If they happen "all the time", surely you can provide examples? Thanks in advance.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:47 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
You seem to find ways to actually defend what he said or the way he said it, even if the regime never denied it.

The fact is out there to see, and his words have been traduced to actions for years.


Setting the record straight back to facts instead of misinformation and propaganda is not ‘defense’. Defense would be saying the regime is amazing, has done more good than bad, is worthy of respect, yada yada. Nobody here is saying such things.


To come out and said that what he said was not that or it was a mistake in translation is defend. Even if there is plenty of evidence that the regime has actually done what he has said for years.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
NIKV69
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:20 pm

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
N583JB wrote:

I'm also curious about this one. Has the US military ever shot down a civilian plane over US soil?


Well he don't have an answer so I would only guess no. It was an irresponsible statement.


I said people are in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't know how you all twisted that to "American military constantly shoots down airliners over the United States".


I didn't twist anything. See post above you know what you said. Don't backtrack please and provide an example. Any example. Or retract.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
tu204
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:33 pm

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-warns- ... 29?mod=mhp

Directly related to this subject.

Any U.S. apologists want to comment on the threat to jack Iraqi funds if U.S. troops are shown the door?
So trying to blackmail a sovereign country expelling foreign troops that illegally invaded it and occupied it for over 15 years is right in what way? Humour us please.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:41 pm

Real talk, the guy was killed because of a dozen different outrageous acts over his long career, including many crimes. He was killed outside his country on a field of battle. He is no different from other militants killed for similar reasons (in fact he was FAR more deserving than most). He was a terror mastermind.

However, it is not legal to kill someone as punishment. Therefore we must argue that he was killed because he was continuously in the act of planning future terror acts, which is quite plausible.
 
tu204
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:08 pm

LCDFlight wrote:
Real talk, the guy was killed because of a dozen different outrageous acts over his long career, including many crimes. He was killed outside his country on a field of battle. He is no different from other militants killed for similar reasons (in fact he was FAR more deserving than most). He was a terror mastermind.

However, it is not legal to kill someone as punishment. Therefore we must argue that he was killed because he was continuously in the act of planning future terror acts, which is quite plausible.


No different from senior United States officials then?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:51 pm

tu204 wrote:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-warns-iraq-it-risks-losing-access-to-key-bank-account-if-troops-told-to-leave-11578759629?mod=mhp

Directly related to this subject.

Any U.S. apologists want to comment on the threat to jack Iraqi funds if U.S. troops are shown the door?
So trying to blackmail a sovereign country expelling foreign troops that illegally invaded it and occupied it for over 15 years is right in what way? Humour us please.


Simple, it’s the Golden Rule, we hold the gold, we make the rules.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:54 pm

Why did we kill Soleimani, simple, he killed lots of Americans or directed attacks that killed and maimed Americans. Attacks that were probably illegal use of mines.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/us/suleimani-iran-attacks.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

GF
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:08 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
You seem to find ways to actually defend what he said or the way he said it, even if the regime never denied it.

The fact is out there to see, and his words have been traduced to actions for years.


Setting the record straight back to facts instead of misinformation and propaganda is not ‘defense’. Defense would be saying the regime is amazing, has done more good than bad, is worthy of respect, yada yada. Nobody here is saying such things.


To come out and said that what he said was not that or it was a mistake in translation is defend. Even if there is plenty of evidence that the regime has actually done what he has said for years.


The word doesn’t mean what you think it does - from Oxford:

speak or write in favour of (an action or person)

What is ‘favour’?

approval, support, or liking for someone or something.

These actions above suggest a clear preference shown with positive language. There was none in my correction - I simply said your understanding comes from past propaganda, and here is the actual translation from what appears to be an unbiased source not friendly to the regime. Nowhere is there positive language or support for Ahmedinejad or the regime - just a statement that your narrative is wrong. I gave no defense - it was a correction. Know the difference.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
LMP737
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:42 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:


With protests anew in Iran, Soleimani’s death probably made life safer for the protesters, not to mention others across the ME. No Americans have been injured since the action. I’m willing to consider the possibility the protest lead to the fall of the mullahs. Not sure how it will go, but they’re in a precarious position with the public, is this Chernobyl for them?

GF


Why would his death make life safer for the protesters? Soleimani's role seemed more focused on places like Iraq, Syria, Yemen etc.

Iranians tend to go for the long game where as American's go for the short game. That's why people here tend to think that since nothing has happened in the past few weeks nothing is going to happen. Until it does, which would probably happen when our short attention span kicks in.

I'm still wondering what the chances are for a diplomatic solution to all this.
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seb146
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:37 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why did we kill Soleimani, simple, he killed lots of Americans or directed attacks that killed and maimed Americans. Attacks that were probably illegal use of mines.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/us/suleimani-iran-attacks.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

GF


And not one peep out of any media sources until now. The United States was not in a declared war against Iran. There was zero reason under any treaty to assassinate Soleimani.

And you, as with this Republican administration, uses "probably" and "maybe" and "whataboutism" to support your opinion.
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LCDFlight
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:06 am

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why did we kill Soleimani, simple, he killed lots of Americans or directed attacks that killed and maimed Americans. Attacks that were probably illegal use of mines.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/us/suleimani-iran-attacks.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

GF


And not one peep out of any media sources until now. The United States was not in a declared war against Iran. There was zero reason under any treaty to assassinate Soleimani.

And you, as with this Republican administration, uses "probably" and "maybe" and "whataboutism" to support your opinion.


I would correct you there. The US has an authorized use of force against terror individuals and organizations (this a declared war, just not against a state). The official definition of terror, according to the US government, includes much or all of the Iran Republican National Guard. So, actually we are at war with that organization.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:30 am

LCDFlight wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why did we kill Soleimani, simple, he killed lots of Americans or directed attacks that killed and maimed Americans. Attacks that were probably illegal use of mines.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/us/suleimani-iran-attacks.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

GF


And not one peep out of any media sources until now. The United States was not in a declared war against Iran. There was zero reason under any treaty to assassinate Soleimani.

And you, as with this Republican administration, uses "probably" and "maybe" and "whataboutism" to support your opinion.


I would correct you there. The US has an authorized use of force against terror individuals and organizations (this a declared war, just not against a state). The official definition of terror, according to the US government, includes much or all of the Iran Republican National Guard. So, actually we are at war with that organization.


I was hoping someone would bring this up - because, this too is false, and has been conflated by the WH. POTUS said in the presser on Thursday that the Obama administration designated IRGC a terror group, which is true - but his cabinet members in presentation to members of Congress and in interviews say it's the 2002 Iraq AUMF that gives them authority to strike. They can't even get which statute they are using straight in the same damn building. Are we to believe Pompeo/Esper's interpretation, or POTUS? How about neither:

2002 Iraq AUMF, section 3, states:

The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to—(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and (2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

Not one mention of Iran, or Iranian activity within Iraq.

https://www.justsecurity.org/67993/why- ... y-to-iran/

As for the 2001 AUMF, you are also incorrect to cite its relevance, because it states quite clearly in Section 2:

(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

The IRGC is not a group recognized to have participated in the events of 9/11, and as a Shia organization, is certainly not actively engaged in funding streams or other activities related to Sunni terror groups that DO threaten the US, unlike other 'allies.' In fact, as POTUS noted, IRGC and US have had a common enemy in ISIS for several years.

Just a minor and necessary correction to rampant misinformation being spewed about by this administration. Fortunately hawk-eyed members of Congress on both sides of the aisle aren't buying this nonsense.
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LCDFlight
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:12 am

Interesting, Aaron 747. So even though we have Global War on Terror, and we named IRNG as a terror organization, there is no statute that allows any action on that? The whole thing was so extraordinarily broad that I would just guess there is wiggle room to get a terror-listed guy while he is located in Iraq, where he has personally done operations against us.

Nice tagline BTW, great song.
 
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:19 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Interesting, Aaron 747. So even though we have Global War on Terror, and we named IRNG as a terror organization, there is no statute that allows any action on that? The whole thing was so extraordinarily broad that I would just guess there is wiggle room to get a terror-listed guy while he is located in Iraq, where he has personally done operations against us.

Nice tagline BTW, great song.


Specifically? No. This was a problem in the last administration too. Present the evidence of what’s going on to Congress, and get an AUMF, as required by the Constitution and War Powers Act. It’s not that hard if the proper information is presented.
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seb146
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:00 am

LCDFlight wrote:
Interesting, Aaron 747. So even though we have Global War on Terror, and we named IRNG as a terror organization, there is no statute that allows any action on that? The whole thing was so extraordinarily broad that I would just guess there is wiggle room to get a terror-listed guy while he is located in Iraq, where he has personally done operations against us.

Nice tagline BTW, great song.


Read this again
(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

How was Iran involved in 9/11? Or Iraq for that matter?
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LCDFlight
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:27 am

seb146 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Interesting, Aaron 747. So even though we have Global War on Terror, and we named IRNG as a terror organization, there is no statute that allows any action on that? The whole thing was so extraordinarily broad that I would just guess there is wiggle room to get a terror-listed guy while he is located in Iraq, where he has personally done operations against us.

Nice tagline BTW, great song.


Read this again
(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

How was Iran involved in 9/11? Or Iraq for that matter?


The Iraq War was authorized separately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoriza ... on_of_2002

I am studying how broad the authorization for GWOT really is. I don't know the answer.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:50 am

LCDFlight wrote:
He was killed outside his country on a field of battle.


You might want to look at where he was killed. I have been wondering why if we were going to take him out we did it there. Did we not know his position in Syria? I'm pretty sure we did. Doing it in Syria would not have seen the same backlash in Iraq. Obviously it's still an act of war to Iran, but obviously people aren't caring that it is an act so drastic it could cause a war (and only allowable on the technicality that the IRGC is listed as a terrorist group, which seems to ignore their unique status as being an extension of a country's military).

So that said, I'm pretty sure the execution of this act was idiotic. They should have done it in Syria. Trump is not a strategic genius. He is a moron.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:54 am

Jouhou wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
He was killed outside his country on a field of battle.


You might want to look at where he was killed. I have been wondering why if we were going to take him out we did it there. Did we not know his position in Syria? I'm pretty sure we did. Doing it in Syria would not have seen the same backlash in Iraq. Obviously it's still an act of war to Iran, but obviously people aren't caring that it is an act so drastic it could cause a war (and only allowable on the technicality that the IRGC is listed as a terrorist group, which seems to ignore their unique status as being an extension of a country's military).

So that said, I'm pretty sure the execution of this act was idiotic. They should have done it in Syria. Trump is not a strategic genius. He is a moron.


Mr. Zakaria agrees with you:

https://youtu.be/xfnxMp3P-Oc
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tu204
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:24 am

LCDFlight wrote:
seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Why did we kill Soleimani, simple, he killed lots of Americans or directed attacks that killed and maimed Americans. Attacks that were probably illegal use of mines.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/us/suleimani-iran-attacks.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

GF


And not one peep out of any media sources until now. The United States was not in a declared war against Iran. There was zero reason under any treaty to assassinate Soleimani.

And you, as with this Republican administration, uses "probably" and "maybe" and "whataboutism" to support your opinion.


I would correct you there. The US has an authorized use of force against terror individuals and organizations (this a declared war, just not against a state). The official definition of terror, according to the US government, includes much or all of the Iran Republican National Guard. So, actually we are at war with that organization.


Ok, so using that same logic, now that Iran has labeled "The Pentagon and all affiliated persons" (I guess that means Department of Defence personel, including all U.S. forces) as "terrorists", that makes it OK for the Iranians to start officially offing them pretty much worldwide?

Y'all gotta be careful when you start labelling official branches of a sovereign and recognised country's forces as "Terrorists".
Especially if your own country sponsors unrecognised armed groups in other countries providing them with weapons (Syria), invades and occupies others, and in the process continuesly takes out civilians as "collateral damage" when you weren't really invited in the first place.

If you wanna be objective, don't you think that the Republican Guard are pretty tame terrorists compared to the U.S. Military? Not just by scale, but simply by headcount... :roll:

P.S. I'm not saying the U.S. forces are terrorists, I'm simply saying that the Pentagon must think they are because they are consistent with their interpretations, right?
Last edited by tu204 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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seb146
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:28 am

LCDFlight wrote:
seb146 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
Interesting, Aaron 747. So even though we have Global War on Terror, and we named IRNG as a terror organization, there is no statute that allows any action on that? The whole thing was so extraordinarily broad that I would just guess there is wiggle room to get a terror-listed guy while he is located in Iraq, where he has personally done operations against us.

Nice tagline BTW, great song.


Read this again
(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

How was Iran involved in 9/11? Or Iraq for that matter?


The Iraq War was authorized separately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoriza ... on_of_2002

I am studying how broad the authorization for GWOT really is. I don't know the answer.


No one does, to be honest. Terrorists who were allies are enemies and are allies sometimes but not others but allies are enemies because this and that and reasons so allies are not always allies but enemies are not always enemies because reasons and the covfefe and when a tree falls in the woods does blue still make the same sound as the color of the wind?

It is arbitrary. The Republican administration loves to throw around the word "terrorist" and "terrorism" and all those fear words to get people ginned up so they can stay in power. Not that the Republican administration actually does anything. They just love staying in power. I think it was LBJ who said something about giving the white man someone to look down on and he will vote for you or something like that. Republicans took that and ran with it. Which is why we have what we have today.

Yes, I know... LBJ was a Democrat, but he knew what he was talking about!
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NIKV69
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:28 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
He was killed outside his country on a field of battle.


You might want to look at where he was killed. I have been wondering why if we were going to take him out we did it there. Did we not know his position in Syria? I'm pretty sure we did. Doing it in Syria would not have seen the same backlash in Iraq. Obviously it's still an act of war to Iran, but obviously people aren't caring that it is an act so drastic it could cause a war (and only allowable on the technicality that the IRGC is listed as a terrorist group, which seems to ignore their unique status as being an extension of a country's military).

So that said, I'm pretty sure the execution of this act was idiotic. They should have done it in Syria. Trump is not a strategic genius. He is a moron.


Mr. Zakaria agrees with you:

https://youtu.be/xfnxMp3P-Oc


Ahh yes the resident CNN US hater Fareed Zakaria towing the CNN line that Trump has no plan no strategy and is unfit for office. Hasn't worked in 3 years and it won't work. You would think with 10 months to go these over educated elitists would actually come up with something that makes sense that the middle can get on board with? Didn't work against Reagan won't work here.
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sonicruiser
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Mark Esper: US intel on Iran was made up

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:37 am

Mark Esper confirms the obvious which everyone already knew, there was “no specific evidence Iran was plotting to attack four U.S. embassies.”

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1ZB0KM
 
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:43 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

You might want to look at where he was killed. I have been wondering why if we were going to take him out we did it there. Did we not know his position in Syria? I'm pretty sure we did. Doing it in Syria would not have seen the same backlash in Iraq. Obviously it's still an act of war to Iran, but obviously people aren't caring that it is an act so drastic it could cause a war (and only allowable on the technicality that the IRGC is listed as a terrorist group, which seems to ignore their unique status as being an extension of a country's military).

So that said, I'm pretty sure the execution of this act was idiotic. They should have done it in Syria. Trump is not a strategic genius. He is a moron.


Mr. Zakaria agrees with you:

https://youtu.be/xfnxMp3P-Oc


Ahh yes the resident CNN US hater Fareed Zakaria towing the CNN line that Trump has no plan no strategy and is unfit for office.


Zakaria is a US-hater?! LOL. Okay, we should just let that stand on its own.

He not only did cheerleading for Iraq invasion in 2003, he has written books about the wisdom of Reagan and the neoliberal foreign policy born in the 1980s. He praised Trump’s strike in Syria in 2017. The fact that he gets criticized by both progressives and conservatives is evidence his views are somewhat grounded in reality. Nothing anywhere shows this guy hates America.

Ad hominem is not any kind of argument at all - you couldn’t refute any of his points, so you just take potshots at a person with a well-rounded voice, well, because...feelings?

Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. - Mark Twain
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Jouhou
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:45 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

You might want to look at where he was killed. I have been wondering why if we were going to take him out we did it there. Did we not know his position in Syria? I'm pretty sure we did. Doing it in Syria would not have seen the same backlash in Iraq. Obviously it's still an act of war to Iran, but obviously people aren't caring that it is an act so drastic it could cause a war (and only allowable on the technicality that the IRGC is listed as a terrorist group, which seems to ignore their unique status as being an extension of a country's military).

So that said, I'm pretty sure the execution of this act was idiotic. They should have done it in Syria. Trump is not a strategic genius. He is a moron.


Mr. Zakaria agrees with you:

https://youtu.be/xfnxMp3P-Oc


Ahh yes the resident CNN US hater Fareed Zakaria towing the CNN line that Trump has no plan no strategy and is unfit for office. Hasn't worked in 3 years and it won't work. You would think with 10 months to go these over educated elitists would actually come up with something that makes sense that the middle can get on board with? Didn't work against Reagan won't work here.


The only strategy Trump has is whipping up his supporters into a frothing rage at the evil liberals and media.

It's almost like he's a demagogue or something.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:56 am

Jouhou wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Mr. Zakaria agrees with you:

https://youtu.be/xfnxMp3P-Oc


Ahh yes the resident CNN US hater Fareed Zakaria towing the CNN line that Trump has no plan no strategy and is unfit for office. Hasn't worked in 3 years and it won't work. You would think with 10 months to go these over educated elitists would actually come up with something that makes sense that the middle can get on board with? Didn't work against Reagan won't work here.


The only strategy Trump has is whipping up his supporters into a frothing rage at the evil liberals and media.

It's almost like he's a demagogue or something.


They love it - it’s like a megachurch for people who seek validation instead of spiritual relief.

Reagan conservative Mona Charen summed it up best:

TWS: What will it take for the Republican party to recover its principles?

Maybe just stick to them and stop acting like a Trump cult?


https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/week ... ?_amp=true
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olle
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Re: Mark Esper: US intel on Iran was made up

Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:57 am

How long until he is fired?
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Mark Esper: US intel on Iran was made up

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:00 am

He’ll be fine - he and Pompeo were West Point classmates.
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WIederling
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:24 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:

Well he don't have an answer so I would only guess no. It was an irresponsible statement.


I said people are in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't know how you all twisted that to "American military constantly shoots down airliners over the United States".


I didn't twist anything. See post above you know what you said. Don't backtrack please and provide an example. Any example. Or retract.


Reading comprehension:
"The jet was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Those killings happen all the time in the United States and no one bats an eye."

he did not write "shoot down" or similar. He wrote killings
"wrong place wrong time" ~== "innocent bystanders"

I'd take it as referencing killings of (innocent) bystanders in the US.
accidental and/or intentional gun death has filled topic pages here to no end. It is a fact.

rather popular tactic to misinterpret statement and then "take off" from there.
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WIederling
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
TWS: What will it take for the Republican party to recover its principles?


The lost son they never had :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
N583JB
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:26 pm

seb146 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Read this again
(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

How was Iran involved in 9/11? Or Iraq for that matter?


The Iraq War was authorized separately.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoriza ... on_of_2002

I am studying how broad the authorization for GWOT really is. I don't know the answer.


No one does, to be honest. Terrorists who were allies are enemies and are allies sometimes but not others but allies are enemies because this and that and reasons so allies are not always allies but enemies are not always enemies because reasons and the covfefe and when a tree falls in the woods does blue still make the same sound as the color of the wind?

It is arbitrary. The Republican administration loves to throw around the word "terrorist" and "terrorism" and all those fear words to get people ginned up so they can stay in power. Not that the Republican administration actually does anything. They just love staying in power. I think it was LBJ who said something about giving the white man someone to look down on and he will vote for you or something like that. Republicans took that and ran with it. Which is why we have what we have today.

Yes, I know... LBJ was a Democrat, but he knew what he was talking about!


We're still waiting for those examples, seb.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:29 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Setting the record straight back to facts instead of misinformation and propaganda is not ‘defense’. Defense would be saying the regime is amazing, has done more good than bad, is worthy of respect, yada yada. Nobody here is saying such things.


To come out and said that what he said was not that or it was a mistake in translation is defend. Even if there is plenty of evidence that the regime has actually done what he has said for years.


The word doesn’t mean what you think it does - from Oxford:

speak or write in favour of (an action or person)

What is ‘favour’?

approval, support, or liking for someone or something.

These actions above suggest a clear preference shown with positive language. There was none in my correction - I simply said your understanding comes from past propaganda, and here is the actual translation from what appears to be an unbiased source not friendly to the regime. Nowhere is there positive language or support for Ahmedinejad or the regime - just a statement that your narrative is wrong. I gave no defense - it was a correction. Know the difference.


To clarify what someone else said, or to try and find a more 'fair' explanation of what he says, to me that's a bit closer to defend or exonerate that person from something he was not saying.

Don't know why the liberals and most specifically the post-modern types seem to find always an excuse or an explanation for what 'non-westerners' do, even if to their own stadards what those 'non-westerners' do is abhorrent and borderline genocidal. Pitting west vs the rest of the world has worked out well for them, and we can see how in Academia and in MSM this has been able to sway huge amount of people.

Yet, defending or clarifying a terrorist murderous regime who kills their own people is better than defending the freedoms and liberties we on the west have, just because who is in power doesn't agree with most of the PC stuff that comes out, or goes against our social justice platform. That's why Trump won in 2016, and if you folks keep it up, certainly be reelected in 2020.

Lets start calling things as they are, the sky is blue, lets not get into arguments its another color. The left needs to start with that.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:05 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
To clarify what someone else said, or to try and find a more 'fair' explanation of what he says, to me that's a bit closer to defend or exonerate that person from something he was not saying.

Yet, defending or clarifying a terrorist murderous regime who kills their own people is better than defending the freedoms and liberties we on the west have, just because who is in power doesn't agree with most of the PC stuff that comes out, or goes against our social justice platform.


What it means 'to you' is simply a difference of opinion, but it does not change my intent or what was actually said. 'Correction' means correction, and 'defend' means defend.

You can criticize others if you like, it doesn't make a difference. I know where I stand. I have been a registered independent since 2002 and have voted for GOP, Dems, Libertarians, whoever had a principled position on policies I wanted to see at the time. I have no SJW agenda, in fact they can be quite irritating and counterproductive. But a lot of Americans like me dislike the administration precisely because it makes a mockery of our liberties and our Constitutional system. We discuss these things all the time with like-minded Dems, Independents, and Never-Trump conservatives - most of the latter are very principled people who make no beans about the power grabs by this WH. Most supporters of this WH are too wrapped up with their emotions and validation needs to actually listen. So basically you're sitting there making stuff up about defending a murderous regime (which nobody here does), when you could be having an adult conversation instead.
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mham001
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:31 pm

That's right, there is always more to it than the media wants us to see. Today, thousands of Iranians took to the streets to protest AGAINST their government for the airliner mistake AND celebrating the death of the Iranian general. But there will much less coverage in the liberal rags than there was about the usual protests staged by the Iranian government. The ignorant downplaying Soleimani 's role do not wish to remember that the man was responsible for (an estimated) 100,000 dead Iranians in the last wave of dissent just two months ago. https://nypost.com/2020/01/12/the-elite ... an-people/


tu204 wrote:
The United States illegally (and under false and misleading pretenses) invaded Iraq back in 2003. Since then it is the U.S. that has been on Iran's doorstep and 10,000km away from theirs. Iranians have much more of a right to lets say get involved in Iraqi affairs for ethnic and religious reasons than the U.S. does (btw, why is the U.S. in Iraq anyways?). So you can't really blame them for getting involved in Iraq, on their doorstep with some similar interests, than the U.S. which is half a world away.

We can go further back to the 1950's when the United States started directly interefering in Iranian internal affairs and causing them a whole lot of hell.


Another history revision by a hater. Did history begin in 1950? No. Why did the US get involved in 1950? Because Europeans - including EXTENSIVE Russian interference - had screwed up the entire region (and more) for centuries before. But we probably won't be allowed to discuss that here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran
 
NIKV69
Posts: 12935
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Re: Head Iran Gen Killed In Air Strike

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:39 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

Zakaria is a US-hater?! LOL. Okay, we should just let that stand on its own.

He not only did cheerleading for Iraq invasion in 2003, he has written books about the wisdom of Reagan and the neoliberal foreign policy born in the 1980s. He praised Trump’s strike in Syria in 2017. The fact that he gets criticized by both progressives and conservatives is evidence his views are somewhat grounded in reality. Nothing anywhere shows this guy hates America.

Ad hominem is not any kind of argument at all - you couldn’t refute any of his points, so you just take potshots at a person with a well-rounded voice, well, because...feelings?

Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. - Mark Twain



Oh because he stated the obvious when Trump hit Assad all of a sudden he is some objective media pundit? Nobody could have possibly opposed that so he isn't much of a hero. Uhh..Fareed Zakaria is a US hater in the context of he loves what the US offers in way of opportunity and income (which is why he left India to come here) yet wants to turn us into the Euro model of insane high taxes and open borders. Only to toe the left's line that if you oppose you are some sort of red neck who hates people of color. He is just another cheap , over educated bomb thrower employed by the MSM, trotted out to try to scare the low info electorate. The left base loves him I know.

As for Iraq invasion he opposed it after he kind of supported it. Asking his name be taken off a document of a secret meeting he was alleged to have attended.
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/09/busi ... nd&emc=rss

I won't even get into his plagiarism but at the end of the day he is just another propagandist hell bent on campaigning for the Democrats. If you want to cheer for a Harvard educated pundit use David Gergen he is a heck of a lot more objective.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
mham001
Posts: 5650
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

Re: Mark Esper: US intel on Iran was made up

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:39 pm

sonicruiser wrote:
Mark Esper confirms the obvious which everyone already knew, there was “no specific evidence Iran was plotting to attack four U.S. embassies.”

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1ZB0KM


Interestingly, buried in that article is this:
"Esper said in a separate interview on CNN's "State of the Union" that the administration had "exquisite intelligence" that a broader attack against multiple embassies was likely but that could only be shared with the "Gang of Eight," a group of top congressional leaders who get briefed on sensitive information that the rest of Congress does not have access to."
 
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casinterest
Posts: 9755
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: Mark Esper: US intel on Iran was made up

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:47 pm

mham001 wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
Mark Esper confirms the obvious which everyone already knew, there was “no specific evidence Iran was plotting to attack four U.S. embassies.”

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1ZB0KM


Interestingly, buried in that article is this:
"Esper said in a separate interview on CNN's "State of the Union" that the administration had "exquisite intelligence" that a broader attack against multiple embassies was likely but that could only be shared with the "Gang of Eight," a group of top congressional leaders who get briefed on sensitive information that the rest of Congress does not have access to."


So my point on this would be why does the general matter? If the US was plotting to target an Iranian general and a US general was killed, would the US stop the targeting?
Sure they may delay it ,but the US would continue it's plans.

How did this attack on the Iranian General change the 4 embassy attacks?
Where ever you go, there you are.

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