frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3538
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:24 pm

While a 200 mile range is necessary to avoid anxiety most are driving less than 50 miles a day. Not much of a draw on the grid.

A friend had an early Leaf, and found good reason to experience range anxiety. Work required occasional day time driving as well as the commute. She could make it work, but it was a pain. Within a few years I suspect fast and extra fast charging will generally be available when ever you need it, probably a little more expensive than you like. But still available. At that point a smaller battery pack would work well. But battery packs are getting ever cheaper. So the range, weight, cost balances could allow markedly different solutions. The market will decide.

ps res manual transmissions. As I understand it they are not needed on an electric car, and acceleration is fantastic from the start.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11849
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:28 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
While a 200 mile range is necessary to avoid anxiety most are driving less than 50 miles a day. Not much of a draw on the grid.


Only w/o days where lots of people drive long distances like holidays, beginning of vacation times. And 50 miles/day is still 100% increase in domestic electricity use in most places....
Oh, and you should be hooked to the grid when there is plenty of power....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
M564038
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:08 pm

Your replies are gibberish.

1.Home chargers are maximum 32A. At 230Volts that gives you 7,3 kW. Most car’s built in chargers are 5,5 or 6,1 Kw.
2.Daily average consupmtion is 5kWh for an electric car. Daily average consumption for a fossil is 2kWh for the refinery. You are only adding 125W/hours on average. 2 old light bulbs.
3.Most chargers lets you set goal travel time as to not keep the battery at 100% for extended periods. You don’t get a maximum load at 5.30PM every day.
FACT: Induction cooking tops That have conquered the market conpletely over the last 10 years, are more of a problem, and more in sync.
This reduces the effect on the grid substansially.
4.Most apartment complexes set a maximum load for charge sharing. The chargers (200 of them in my apartment complex) shares a maximum load, and this is controlled by the chargers themselves.

5.Ad you conviniently forget: We already know. We have a HUGE share of EVs in my country and the grid companies says this is and will be no problem at all.

Tommy. YOU are clueless on this subject.

Remember: 2 old light bulbs per electric car. Most households have saved this 10 times over by going LED.


tommy1808 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Where I live, the EV-disruption has already happened.
So we KNOW that the grid survived.


You do know that, which btw I never disagreed with, so why bring it up?

We KNOW that your armageddon talk about loads breaking everything is ridcolous.


Load shedding. It's a standard practice and has been for decades. It exists for a reason. Come back when you know how a power grid works.
A grid obviously breaks when you draw too much power, I am amazed that even needs explaining. Math doesn't lie either, with EV it is very easy to exceed the *production capacity* by an order of magnitude. If you come up with a calculation showing that 40 million times 22kw is somehow less than 100GW, we can talk. Until that moment it remains a fact that EVs can overload the grid even with a moderate percentage of them is charging at the same time, even when charging slow.

A good rule of thumb is 1kw/hour/person for private and business power consumption combined outside of extreme areas to either way.... and surprise, that is about close to the production and grid capacity we have.
What you are claiming in essence is that our grid somehow has 100+% in spare production, grid and transformation capacity, that operators spend billions over billions on, just for it to sit around until someone makes a practical EV car. Right, we all know that is how business works...

You simply don't notice that in your pricing yet because relatively few EV drivers use existing reserves, that got larger with the general increase of efficiency and moving electricity intensive industries elsewhere, and expansions are conveniently paid by everyone, instead of charging it to EV owners in full*, like it is practise for everybody else with elevated power needs.

We also know that 3rd party repairs is possible with Tesla.


Yeah, because I said it, and I think I even provided the directive that makes it law.

We also know that EVs are great cars for long distance batteries even with moderate battery sizes, and that EVs work great in cold climates


Straw man much...
And great for long distance.... depends on what your long distances are. Mine often have 900+ KM. And while Siemens, you know, grid people, has chargers in the parking lot in Nuremberg, they are already occupied when I get there. When EV cars can do that without a stop, then they are good long distance vehicles...

Best regards
Thomas

*which would be counter productive for climate goals, but would be fair as those charges are effectively a new Tax.
 
M564038
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:15 pm

A 70kWh Tesla 3 use 30 minutes more over 1000Km than driving non-stop. you are a very dangerous driver if you don’t have a break like that on that distance.

Even a 28kWh Ioniq will use about an hour more.


Range limitations are a bullshit argument against EVs these days.

tommy1808 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
While a 200 mile range is necessary to avoid anxiety most are driving less than 50 miles a day. Not much of a draw on the grid.


Only w/o days where lots of people drive long distances like holidays, beginning of vacation times. And 50 miles/day is still 100% increase in domestic electricity use in most places....
Oh, and you should be hooked to the grid when there is plenty of power....

Best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12273
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sat Jan 18, 2020 11:26 pm

Charging stations are few and far between, but this will improve. In France, you can easily get a 22kW charger at home, if you want.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
M564038
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:16 am

France is somewhat of a unique exeption because of the Renault Zoe with 22kW AC-charging.
This has not become the standard, and other cars has 5-6kW home AC-charging, and 40-260kW DC fast charging as something you can buy access to along the road.

Aesma wrote:
Charging stations are few and far between, but this will improve. In France, you can easily get a 22kW charger at home, if you want.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9309
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:08 pm

M564038 wrote:
Your replies are gibberish.


2.Daily average consupmtion is 5kWh for an electric car.

Daily average consumption for a fossil is 2kWh for the refinery.

Hähh?
You are only adding 125W/hours on average. 2 old light bulbs.

Power in "W"
Energy in "Wh" or J ( 1 Joule = 1Ws )
5kWh/day is 208W continuous.


Where is the difference in going induction cooking from a traditional electric cook site?
Murphy is an optimist
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 3538
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 3:38 pm

I suspect the concern with induction ranges is that building codes are beginning to discourage, even ban, gas hookups. This will require more electricity. Whether this is a valid concern I do not know. Friends who use a gas cooking stove using propane have remarked how long a 10 gallon tank lasts. Our condo fees include all gas for cooking, but the fireplace gas is billed to us separately.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
M564038
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:52 pm

For the average daily distance:
An electric will have used 5kWh.

To produce the fossil fuel required to drive the same distance in a petrol or diesel car, the refinery will have spent 2kWh. So you subtract that from 5 kWh to get the difference from todays load.

All kinds of smart charging, cost rate charging, timed charging, and partial charging, makes the grid load rather even. An electric car puts on average 125Watts continous load on the grid. Or about the same you saved when you switched 2-3 old light bulbs for LEDs.

Clearer?

WIederling wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Your replies are gibberish.


2.Daily average consupmtion is 5kWh for an electric car.

Daily average consumption for a fossil is 2kWh for the refinery.

Hähh?
You are only adding 125W/hours on average. 2 old light bulbs.

Power in "W"
Energy in "Wh" or J ( 1 Joule = 1Ws )
5kWh/day is 208W continuous.


Where is the difference in going induction cooking from a traditional electric cook site?
 
M564038
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:57 pm

The load for induction is crazy compared to the old days. Everyone said the grid would collapse, and that people’s intakes had to be upped from 25A to 60A to even start thinking about going induction.
I live in a country where everyone has more or less gone induction(and a huge share of electric cars), and the grid-mageddon simply hasn’t happened.

People aren’t driving their cars to 0% or fully charge them the same time everyday, or even everyday, and people aren’t turning on their induction tops t the same time everyday either.

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I suspect the concern with induction ranges is that building codes are beginning to discourage, even ban, gas hookups. This will require more electricity. Whether this is a valid concern I do not know. Friends who use a gas cooking stove using propane have remarked how long a 10 gallon tank lasts. Our condo fees include all gas for cooking, but the fireplace gas is billed to us separately.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9309
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:56 pm

M564038 wrote:
For the average daily distance:
An electric will have used 5kWh.

To produce the fossil fuel required to drive the same distance in a petrol or diesel car, the refinery will have spent 2kWh. So you subtract that from 5 kWh to get the difference from todays load.

All kinds of smart charging, cost rate charging, timed charging, and partial charging, makes the grid load rather even. An electric car puts on average 125Watts continous load on the grid. Or about the same you saved when you switched 2-3 old light bulbs for LEDs.

Clearer?


I get your thinking.
But IMHO it is wrong to put it bluntly.
if you take in the ready expenses into the computation for fuel
you also have to do the same for grid current.
Depending on the country that is 15..30% losses before energy is counted in your meter. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
M564038
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:31 pm

Yes. That is correct, transmission loss is a huge thing about the grid system, but that doesn’t change any of the relative comaprisons here at all, and it doesn’t impact the relative usage of the grid, or really anything else regarding this at all! I am talking actual refinery usage of electricity to produce fuel, not some conversion that doesn’t take transmission loss in to account.

So, no nothing new;-)

You should take this as a positive thing though.

The practical experiences with EVs from markets with good penetration are extremely positive.
People prefer them when prices are equal, and there is very little trouble with them.

The dinosaur car manufacturers are shaking in their pants from fear.

They know.




WIederling wrote:
M564038 wrote:
For the average daily distance:
An electric will have used 5kWh.

To produce the fossil fuel required to drive the same distance in a petrol or diesel car, the refinery will have spent 2kWh. So you subtract that from 5 kWh to get the difference from todays load.

All kinds of smart charging, cost rate charging, timed charging, and partial charging, makes the grid load rather even. An electric car puts on average 125Watts continous load on the grid. Or about the same you saved when you switched 2-3 old light bulbs for LEDs.

Clearer?


I get your thinking.
But IMHO it is wrong to put it bluntly.
if you take in the ready expenses into the computation for fuel
you also have to do the same for grid current.
Depending on the country that is 15..30% losses before energy is counted in your meter. :-)
 
Sokes
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:04 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
a) average is meaningless, peak consumption is the only relevant number when it comes to EV. Well, electricity, period.
...
There are plenty of non average days. You know, when lines form at the gas station..... holiday weekends mostly. As I said: all hooked to single phase AC only is way above what we can supply.


I agree. Add fluctuation in renewables. A single cylinder with 15 hp would go a long way to relief the grid in times of shortage.

Back on topic: Here a minimalistic "car":

Image

Image
source: https://auto.ndtv.com/reviews/2019-baja ... ew-2007739

Bajaj Cute:
216cc
13hp, 18,9Nm
kerb weight 451kg
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
LCDFlight
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:22 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:18 pm

Incidentally, my phone told me it is going to monitor my usage so it can schedule charging (presumably charge more slowly) to charge the battery.

Electric cars can do this too to balance needs vs max wiring loads vs battery life.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 6941
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:20 pm

There is is, it was the Citroën 2CV.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
Growing older, but not up.
 
WIederling
Posts: 9309
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:07 pm

readytotaxi wrote:
There is is, it was the Citroën 2CV.


Yes.
That was perfect minimalist useability.
Levels above the beetle though they share the creation epoche.

Later Citroen ruined the concept when they introduced the Dyane.
downsides of the 2CV bundled with the downsides of a "real car".
Murphy is an optimist
 
M564038
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:48 pm

Once again Tommy1808 claims his speculations are more valuable than hard, cold data from markets with real penetration and real practical experience.
And again his speculations are wrong.


Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
a) average is meaningless, peak consumption is the only relevant number when it comes to EV. Well, electricity, period.
...
There are plenty of non average days. You know, when lines form at the gas station..... holiday weekends mostly. As I said: all hooked to single phase AC only is way above what we can supply.


I agree. Add fluctuation in renewables. A single cylinder with 15 hp would go a long way to relief the grid in times of shortage.

Back on topic: Here a minimalistic "car":

Image

Image
source: https://auto.ndtv.com/reviews/2019-baja ... ew-2007739

Bajaj Cute:
216cc
13hp, 18,9Nm
kerb weight 451kg
 
cpd
Posts: 6136
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:00 pm

M564038 wrote:
Yes. That is correct, transmission loss is a huge thing about the grid system, but that doesn’t change any of the relative comaprisons here at all, and it doesn’t impact the relative usage of the grid, or really anything else regarding this at all! I am talking actual refinery usage of electricity to produce fuel, not some conversion that doesn’t take transmission loss in to account.

So, no nothing new;-)

You should take this as a positive thing though.

The practical experiences with EVs from markets with good penetration are extremely positive.
People prefer them when prices are equal, and there is very little trouble with them.

The dinosaur car manufacturers are shaking in their pants from fear.

They know.




WIederling wrote:
M564038 wrote:
For the average daily distance:
An electric will have used 5kWh.

To produce the fossil fuel required to drive the same distance in a petrol or diesel car, the refinery will have spent 2kWh. So you subtract that from 5 kWh to get the difference from todays load.

All kinds of smart charging, cost rate charging, timed charging, and partial charging, makes the grid load rather even. An electric car puts on average 125Watts continous load on the grid. Or about the same you saved when you switched 2-3 old light bulbs for LEDs.

Clearer?


I get your thinking.
But IMHO it is wrong to put it bluntly.
if you take in the ready expenses into the computation for fuel
you also have to do the same for grid current.
Depending on the country that is 15..30% losses before energy is counted in your meter. :-)



Electric cars are still a long way from claiming the market here. They are still too expensive. So the top seller will still be a common garden Toyota or Ford. Hybrids are a middle step and the taxi market has embraced the Camry Hybrid.

And the cheaper electric cars are sometimes awful cars. Mitsubishi iMiev is just terrible for the money. BMW i3 is a better thing however. When VW ID3 arrives, then we will see the market change.
 
M564038
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:16 am

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:10 pm

Yes, the EV-price point is still wrong in markets that didn’t tax fossiles high enough. The rest is just inertia.

Drove a fossil again last week. A new mercedes rental with less than 2000Km on the clock. Germany. Autobahn.

Jeeesus, that sucked compared to my mid/reasonably priced EV.

Non-linear throttle, turbo boost, transmission, noise.

It just feels so oooooold! Last century tech.
Stop doing it already! Get with the program!

It felt magic getting home to my EV.

cpd wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Yes. That is correct, transmission loss is a huge thing about the grid system, but that doesn’t change any of the relative comaprisons here at all, and it doesn’t impact the relative usage of the grid, or really anything else regarding this at all! I am talking actual refinery usage of electricity to produce fuel, not some conversion that doesn’t take transmission loss in to account.

So, no nothing new;-)

You should take this as a positive thing though.

The practical experiences with EVs from markets with good penetration are extremely positive.
People prefer them when prices are equal, and there is very little trouble with them.

The dinosaur car manufacturers are shaking in their pants from fear.

They know.




WIederling wrote:

I get your thinking.
But IMHO it is wrong to put it bluntly.
if you take in the ready expenses into the computation for fuel
you also have to do the same for grid current.
Depending on the country that is 15..30% losses before energy is counted in your meter. :-)



Electric cars are still a long way from claiming the market here. They are still too expensive. So the top seller will still be a common garden Toyota or Ford. Hybrids are a middle step and the taxi market has embraced the Camry Hybrid.

And the cheaper electric cars are sometimes awful cars. Mitsubishi iMiev is just terrible for the money. BMW i3 is a better thing however. When VW ID3 arrives, then we will see the market change.
 
Sokes
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:55 am

M564038 wrote:
Once again Tommy1808 claims his speculations are more valuable than hard, cold data from markets with real penetration and real practical experience.
And again his speculations are wrong.


So if somebody agrees with Tommy he has to be Tommy?
I don't understand what you mean with "real penetration". Can you expand?


Citroen CV2:
Image
source: https://www.classicandsportscar.com/fea ... itroen-2cv

curb weight 600 kg
375 cc H2 air-cooled 9 hp (7 kW).
425 cc H2 air-cooled 12 hp (9 kW).
435 cc H2 air-cooled 24 hp (18 kW).
602 cc H2 air-cooled 29 hp (22 kW).
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV


Mitsubishi i-MiEV:
Image

curb weight 1080 kg
16kWh battery
47 kW, 180 Nm
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV


For posting pictures:
a) [img]
b) link
c) [/img]

Suppose link is "abc". Therefore:
[img]abc[/img]

On Wikipedia to open a picture in new tab is not enough. Again one has to right click that picture and open in new tab.
e.g.:
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV Right click picture and open in new tab:
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2010 ... V_(GA_MY10)_hatchback_(2015-11-11)_01.jpg Right click picture and open in new tab:
3) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... %29_01.jpg

[img]3)[/img] will work, [img]2)[/img] doesn't work.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
Sokes
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:16 am

Sokes wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Once again Tommy1808 claims his speculations are more valuable than hard, cold data from markets with real penetration and real practical experience.
And again his speculations are wrong.


So if somebody agrees with Tommy he has to be Tommy?
I don't understand what you mean with "real penetration". Can you expand?


readytotaxi wrote:
There is is, it was the Citroën 2CV.

You are right. I wasn't aware of it. Thanks for posting.

Citroen CV2:
Image
source: https://www.classicandsportscar.com/fea ... itroen-2cv

curb weight 600 kg
375 cc H2 air-cooled 9 hp (7 kW).
425 cc H2 air-cooled 12 hp (9 kW).
435 cc H2 air-cooled 24 hp (18 kW).
602 cc H2 air-cooled 29 hp (22 kW).
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_2CV


Mitsubishi i-MiEV:
Image

curb weight 1080 kg
16kWh battery
47 kW, 180 Nm
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV


For posting pictures:
a) [img]
b) link
c) [/img]

Suppose link is "abc". Therefore:
[img]abc[/img]

On Wikipedia to open a picture in new tab is not enough. Again one has to right click that picture and open in new tab.
e.g.:
1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_i-MiEV Right click picture and open in new tab:
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2010 ... V_(GA_MY10)_hatchback_(2015-11-11)_01.jpg Right click picture and open in new tab:
3) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... %29_01.jpg

[img]3)[/img] will work, [img]2)[/img] doesn't work.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11849
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:34 am

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
a) average is meaningless, peak consumption is the only relevant number when it comes to EV. Well, electricity, period.
...
There are plenty of non average days. You know, when lines form at the gas station..... holiday weekends mostly. As I said: all hooked to single phase AC only is way above what we can supply.


I agree. Add fluctuation in renewables. A single cylinder with 15 hp would go a long way to relief the grid in times of shortage.


I have been wondering for years why there isn´t a serial hybrid with a highly optimized one or two cylinder ICE with just enough output to cater to the average consumption at 80miles/130kph, and highly optimized at that point, with enough of a battery to do your driving on 90% of the days. Reserve for faster stints and uphill driving comes from the battery, You´d always have power stored..... better than the vehicle to grid fantasies. Because right, when load is so high, it will be because of vehicles... not exactly the time where many people would want to share whats in their battery, unless paid quite well......

Sokes wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Once again Tommy1808 claims his speculations are more valuable than hard, cold data from markets with real penetration and real practical experience.
And again his speculations are wrong.


So if somebody agrees with Tommy he has to be Tommy?


Some people just think 40 Million times 3.7Kw is somehow less than the few GW of excess capacity available. Self Discharge of a complete BEV fleet is a couple of power plants all by itself (40M times 50Kwh battery times 20% average self discharge*/month is 13GW or 20% of the average consumption here)
Even the super optimistic ones like the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems points out how challenging grid integration is, that it needs a lot of centralized demand management (i.e. price hikes) and such.... and they are not some lobby group on the fossil fuel pay roll, they are quite adamant that we can go to 100% renewable. They are also very, very much more more critical of the "power comes out of the outlet" mentality those have that stand to make good money with it. What Tesla and anyone else going down the BEV only road have to avoid like the devil does holy water is their customers having to pay for grid advancements. Usually whoever causes the power demand pays for the infrastructure to deliver it, somehow BEV users are excluded from that.....

best regards
Thomas

LiIon is much better than 20% if left sitting for a month, like 1 or 2% with a good one, but loses up to 5% within 24 hours of charging....so hard to pin down.
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Sokes
Posts: 572
Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:48 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:42 am

tommy1808 wrote:

Some people just think 40 Million times 3.7Kw is somehow less than the few GW of excess capacity available.


Why 40 million x 3,7 kW? I believe 40 million refers to cars in Germany. You don't believe in fast charging?

I spent considerable time thinking how to enable the integration of renewables. For Europe it basically comes to:
-solar cells facing South-East in Turkey/ Iran and facing South-West in Portugal/ Morocco
-solar towers with huge tanks storing molten salt at 565 degree Celsius in Morocco/ Spain.
-wind turbines wherever population density is low and wind potential is high (only few places in Germany)
-50 GW to be created pumped storage in Norway. More is better.
Maybe we can make a deal: They don't need to be ashamed to fly if they agree to new pumped storage.
-house heating with heat pumps
-at least 150 GW combined cycle gas turbines (CCGD) in Germany with hot water storage tanks for 2-3 days.
Germany has huge underground gas storage facility. Unfortunately Hydrogen takes extreme much space. Even though it would be great to have some CCGDs based on hydrogen to convert excess wind power into hydrogen. To convert wind power into natural gas is I believe overdoing it. But then we are at the beginning of the learning curve.
More than 150 GW CCGDs are needed, but then Germany is not the only cold country in Europe.

Germany would become a regulator instead of producer of renewables. It would buy excess renewables from neighbors and would run CCGDs to cover own demand as well as shortage of neighbors when renewables fail to deliver sufficient power.That requires maybe 50 GW High Voltage Direct Current lines towards each:
a) England/ Ireland/ Scotland
b) Norway (maybe rather 30GW)
c)Spain/ Portugal/ Morocco
d) Turkey/ Iran

More info with pictures:
post 94, viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1433705&hilit=defending+aviation+against+environmental+extremists&start=50

post 45, viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1435209&hilit=Energy+efficiency+where+are+the+limits

I believe the low voltage grid has to be massively expanded anyway to enable heat pumps. If one already has to dig up the road, why not to take a little stronger cable to provide capacity for car batteries as well? I believe in Germany work is in progress.
But to say the grid and power plants of today could enable electric mobility on large scale is something I doubt.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
WIederling
Posts: 9309
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:58 am

cpd wrote:
And the cheaper electric cars are sometimes awful cars. Mitsubishi iMiev is just terrible for the money. BMW i3 is a better thing however. When VW ID3 arrives, then we will see the market change.


I've had a go at the iMiev ( while testing a Space Star, we finally settled for an i10 ) at a Mitsubishi dealership here.
We did like it. but it should not have more markup than 50% versus the Hyundai i10.

I could envision the same market mechanics as seen for Audi A2 3l and the VW Lupo 3l counterpart.
Fresh from the manufacturer much too expensive.
But they hold rather well in the second hand market. sought and loved.

Handful of friends have each leased the newer Smart EV. Nice toy. especially the turning circle.:-)
The 3 years lease conditions were quite acceptable.

I'll look again when we have this current I10 run into the ground (101k done already :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:30 am

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

Some people just think 40 Million times 3.7Kw is somehow less than the few GW of excess capacity available.


Why 40 million x 3,7 kW? I believe 40 million refers to cars in Germany. You don't believe in fast charging?


Fast charging is nice, but doesn´t change anything... well..makes things worse in any but the best case. One million cars charging at 150Kw or 40 million charging from a single phase AC outlet is essentially the same (and 10 Million plugged into a 22KW Wallbox at home, lets say Friday before a holiday weekend, at the same time would be insane.....).

I spent considerable time thinking how to enable the integration of renewables. For Europe it basically comes to:
-solar cells facing South-East in Turkey/ Iran and facing South-West in Portugal/ Morocco
-solar towers with huge tanks storing molten salt at 565 degree Celsius in Morocco/ Spain.
-wind turbines wherever population density is low and wind potential is high (only few places in Germany)
-50 GW to be created pumped storage in Norway. More is better.
Maybe we can make a deal: They don't need to be ashamed to fly if they agree to new pumped storage.
-house heating with heat pumps
-at least 150 GW combined cycle gas turbines (CCGD) in Germany with hot water storage tanks for 2-3 days.
Germany has huge underground gas storage facility. Unfortunately Hydrogen takes extreme much space. Even though it would be great to have some CCGDs based on hydrogen to convert excess wind power into hydrogen. To convert wind power into natural gas is I believe overdoing it. But then we are at the beginning of the learning curve.
More than 150 GW CCGDs are needed, but then Germany is not the only cold country in Europe.


yes, those are all things that need to be done, and ISE and others laid that out in plenty of studies.

Germany would become a regulator instead of producer of renewables.


we kinda already are: https://www.agora-energiewende.de/servi ... 2.02.2020/

It would buy excess renewables from neighbors and would run CCGDs to cover own demand as well as shortage of neighbors when renewables fail to deliver sufficient power.That requires maybe 50 GW High Voltage Direct Current lines towards each:
a) England/ Ireland/ Scotland
b) Norway (maybe rather 30GW)
c)Spain/ Portugal/ Morocco
d) Turkey/ Iran


50GW is a tall order even for HVDC though.... and they take time. But yeah.. we need more HVDC lines. A lot more.

I believe the low voltage grid has to be massively expanded anyway to enable heat pumps. If one already has to dig up the road, why not to take a little stronger cable to provide capacity for car batteries as well? I believe in Germany work is in progress.


Netherlands are much further down the road. Heat however has the advantage that it can be very supply following even with little heat storage on site, and low temperature district heating is also quite awesome.

But to say the grid and power plants of today could enable electric mobility on large scale is something I doubt.


:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
A trillion EUR for the EU in investments seem to be a good ballpark number, for the low boundary.. It is doable, but the infrastructure side won´t be much cheaper than the cars.....

best regards
Thomas
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Sokes
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:14 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Germany would become a regulator instead of producer of renewables.


we kinda already are: https://www.agora-energiewende.de/servi ... 2.02.2020/



Skip this post if not interested in renewables.

You seem to be consumer oriented. I don't like negative electricity prices.
The four day chart from 9.2.20 to 12.2.20 shows that Germany in these days mostly exported and ruined electricity prices. My idea is that Germany mostly imports, unless there is no wind anywhere in Europe. In which case German electricity from to be built CCGTs helps to stabilize the grid.
Germany has lot of lignite plants. They prefer to pay you to take electricity than to regulate down, because they can't. I guess in your chart a lot of wind in Europe and German lignite caused the free electricity. So most other European power plants may regulate down, but not German lignite.
I think in cold winter days Germany helps France to maintain their electric heating. At other times German electricity is a nuisance for all other European power manufacturers. We don't help to regulate, we are a disturbance. Lignite has to go.

I don't speak of 50 GW HVDC lines. I speak of 4 x 50 GW. It's a rough idea.
1) Wind in Ireland/ Scotland/ Britain: we import from there.
2) 6-10 o'clock in the morning: we import solar electricity from Turkey/ Iran
3) 5 o'clock evening and later: we import stored solar from Morocco/ Spain/ Portugal
4) sun/ wind not sufficient: we import hydro power from Norway and start the CCGTs to stabilize Europe's grid.

European countries with lot of wind should build wind power capacity three times their average consumption. They need somebody to whom they can sell their power when the wind blows.
The more HVDC lines and the less own renewables, the better for Germany. Germany doesn't have much wind and sun anyway which makes German renewable power expensive.

I believe a trillion Euro investment for Europe's energy transition sounds about right. Maybe 500 billion, maybe 2 trillion Euro, who knows?
The EU has a GDP of around 18 trillion, so we speak of 3 weeks GDP.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY ... cations=EU
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Aesma
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:45 am

BMW has made a serial hybrid called the i3 REX. It has a 25kW engine from a scooter, relatively light, 2 cylinders.

The problem is that the early i3 had a ridiculously small battery, and the gas tank is also very small, so the total range, even for the REX, was too low.

Take the current Renault Zoe 400 (not the best tech out there), remove a third of the battery to account for the weight of the gas engine and some gas (put a reasonable 20l gas tank), you still get about 200Km real electric range, enough for the worst daily commutes, and many other travels. Then when going on a road trip, you have unlimited range. From what I can gather, the i3 REX goes 134Km longer when using gas than when used in electric only mode, with a 7,2l tank (US variant). That's 5,4l/100Km, not great, but considering the engine is used to generate electricity instead of driving the wheels, it's to be expected.

Batteries are expensive, so a third of the Zoe battery is about 3000€, can you get a scooter engine and a 25kW generator for that price, I don't know.

As standby generators, it doesn't seem like a 25kW smallish gasoline generator even exists, I can only find big diesel ones, costing 10000€.
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maint123
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:17 am

Tata tried a basic car with the Nano in India. It's a case study in how NOT to market a car in a aspirational market. No one , especially the people buying their first car (target group- 2 wheeler drivers) , wanted to buy a "cheap" car. At a starting price of between 2000 to 2500 usd , tata thought it would be a runaway success. But only around 250000 were sold before production was stopped.
Most of the buyers already had 1 or 2 cars .
This was a complete marketing failure as no one wanted their only car to be a poor man's car.
The actual buyers are actually quite pleased with their acquisition.

2nd topic- EVs.
I was in the biennial delhi auto show last week.
Out of 30 odd vehicle exhibitors , 90 % had production ready electric cars on show. A lot of electric buses,trucks,bikes, etc. Even I was surprised by the number of electric vehicles available. And going by the interest of the crowd , in India atleast sales of electric cars are going to explode in the next 2 years.
But the sticker price of 20 k usd for the cheapest means that it will be a second car for the upper middle class and maybe taxi fleets will changeover to evs with the low running costs.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:40 am

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
Germany would become a regulator instead of producer of renewables.


we kinda already are: https://www.agora-energiewende.de/servi ... 2.02.2020/



Skip this post if not interested in renewables.

You seem to be consumer oriented. I don't like negative electricity prices.


as a consumer it matter jack all to me if my supplier pays one EUR per Kwh or gets paid to take it. I pay the same....

The four day chart from 9.2.20 to 12.2.20 shows that Germany in these days mostly exported and ruined electricity prices. My idea is that Germany mostly imports, unless there is no wind anywhere in Europe. In which case German electricity from to be built CCGTs helps to stabilize the grid.

.[/quote]

That goes hand in hand doesn´t it? Prices turning negative during high supply, and that will get a lot worse (or better, depends on POV) with more renewable sources, is a pretty good incentive for first movers to invest in storage. Not just can you supply power when prices are high, you can also charge for filling your storage. Once sufficient storage is available, negative prices will be history.

best regards
Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 13, 2020 12:41 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
That goes hand in hand doesn´t it? Prices turning negative during high supply, and that will get a lot worse (or better, depends on POV) with more renewable sources, is a pretty good incentive for first movers to invest in storage. Not just can you supply power when prices are high, you can also charge for filling your storage. Once sufficient storage is available, negative prices will be history.


Issue at the moment is that there are no small to medium scale billing plans available to buy juice for storing cheaply.

( I've leeched about 10kWh capacity by way of replaced customer batteries connected to a charger/inverter combo.
The AGM/Gel types lose capacity but don't deteriorate in leakage. so I have a rack of 40..60% nominal capacity batteries set up.
Still have to find time to link up some solar arrays and a wind turbine lingering in storage.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:15 pm

WIederling wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
That goes hand in hand doesn´t it? Prices turning negative during high supply, and that will get a lot worse (or better, depends on POV) with more renewable sources, is a pretty good incentive for first movers to invest in storage. Not just can you supply power when prices are high, you can also charge for filling your storage. Once sufficient storage is available, negative prices will be history.


Issue at the moment is that there are no small to medium scale billing plans available to buy juice for storing cheaply.


As a private citizen that is difficult, but there are virtual powerplant companies that will take you under their wings from a couple of hundred KW, which is something private citizens can afford if you want to enter that market.

best regards
Thomas
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:10 pm

My take on EV/Grid is that those managing the grid have said they can cope - just no sudden lurches in policy, and prices may be modestly higher. I suspect that natural gas can play a positive role, it is efficient, cheap now and likely into the future, and with the right turbines can be as variable as the wind.

Is there a market for what I would have called a plain ordinary car like I had in the 60s? Only in dreams - wet or dry! Consumer Reports suggests used Priuses as the plain ordinary car of the early 21st century, but I don't think that is what the OP had in mind. LOL
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tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:26 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I suspect that natural gas can play a positive role, it is efficient, cheap now and likely into the future, and with the right turbines can be as variable as the wind.


It is the best currently available fossil fuel driven energy sources if the gas comes from conventional gas fields, if the gas comes out of fracking it may not net any better than burning coal due to the methane emissions associated with it.

Unless you fire them with biomass/RE derived gas only those turbines won't do any good.

Best regards
Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:13 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
I suspect that natural gas can play a positive role, it is efficient, cheap now and likely into the future, and with the right turbines can be as variable as the wind.


It is the best currently available fossil fuel driven energy sources if the gas comes from conventional gas fields, if the gas comes out of fracking it may not net any better than burning coal due to the methane emissions associated with it.

Unless you fire them with biomass/RE derived gas only those turbines won't do any good.


(partisan?) article in today's newspaper noting introduction of unburned CH4 via leakage along the use path.
Sum overall could be worse than diesel as a replacement fuel in shipping.

Up front you have 20% losses introduced in liquefaction which are more or less unrecoverable.
( vs. 10% for compressed CNG for pipeline transfer which can be partly recovered via expansion work at the destination.)
fracking is a rather unsavory process to begin with and goes on top of the rather inefficient transport path.

Another issue i have is that some of the LNG propulsion solutions just don't make sense.
Germany has ordered new emergency tugs with LNG propulsion.
https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schleswi ... er102.html
These ships are mostly idle in port. Keeping the LNG in their tanks refrigerated will be expensive.
( Preferred is running the engines gas supply with boil off from the tanks.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:16 pm

WIederling wrote:
Up front you have 20% losses introduced in liquefaction which are more or less unrecoverable.


on a cruise ship you should be able to recover most of it, as it is a pretty good heat sink for aircon.

best regards
Thomas
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WIederling
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:25 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Up front you have 20% losses introduced in liquefaction which are more or less unrecoverable.


on a cruise ship you should be able to recover most of it, as it is a pretty good heat sink for aircon.


Only if you can use the resulting boiloff immediately.
... which could actually be the case.

Carnot process 300k -> 110K is rather inefficient. i.e. during liquefaction
most of the energy expended goes out the top end at 300+K as losess.
unrecoverable. ( or do I make a thinking error here.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
M564038
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 12:58 pm

Once again you simply ignore the fact that WE have real measurable numbers from a cold, harsh climate with massive EV market penetration.

The additional power demand for a 40 million car EV-fleet will be 66 TWh per year.

Totally insignificant.

There you have it.
Stop making up number.


tommy1808 wrote:
Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
a) average is meaningless, peak consumption is the only relevant number when it comes to EV. Well, electricity, period.
...
There are plenty of non average days. You know, when lines form at the gas station..... holiday weekends mostly. As I said: all hooked to single phase AC only is way above what we can supply.


I agree. Add fluctuation in renewables. A single cylinder with 15 hp would go a long way to relief the grid in times of shortage.


I have been wondering for years why there isn´t a serial hybrid with a highly optimized one or two cylinder ICE with just enough output to cater to the average consumption at 80miles/130kph, and highly optimized at that point, with enough of a battery to do your driving on 90% of the days. Reserve for faster stints and uphill driving comes from the battery, You´d always have power stored..... better than the vehicle to grid fantasies. Because right, when load is so high, it will be because of vehicles... not exactly the time where many people would want to share whats in their battery, unless paid quite well......

Sokes wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Once again Tommy1808 claims his speculations are more valuable than hard, cold data from markets with real penetration and real practical experience.
And again his speculations are wrong.


So if somebody agrees with Tommy he has to be Tommy?


Some people just think 40 Million times 3.7Kw is somehow less than the few GW of excess capacity available. Self Discharge of a complete BEV fleet is a couple of power plants all by itself (40M times 50Kwh battery times 20% average self discharge*/month is 13GW or 20% of the average consumption here)
Even the super optimistic ones like the Fraunhofer Institute for Solar Energy Systems points out how challenging grid integration is, that it needs a lot of centralized demand management (i.e. price hikes) and such.... and they are not some lobby group on the fossil fuel pay roll, they are quite adamant that we can go to 100% renewable. They are also very, very much more more critical of the "power comes out of the outlet" mentality those have that stand to make good money with it. What Tesla and anyone else going down the BEV only road have to avoid like the devil does holy water is their customers having to pay for grid advancements. Usually whoever causes the power demand pays for the infrastructure to deliver it, somehow BEV users are excluded from that.....

best regards
Thomas

LiIon is much better than 20% if left sitting for a month, like 1 or 2% with a good one, but loses up to 5% within 24 hours of charging....so hard to pin down.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:12 pm

M564038 wrote:
Once again you simply ignore the fact that WE have real measurable numbers from a cold, harsh climate with massive EV market penetration.

The additional power demand for a 40 million car EV-fleet will be 66 TWh per year.

Totally insignificant.

There you have it.
Stop making up number.




Convinient numbers daily... what is the absolute top, once in a year, peak charging demand. That is essentially the only relevant number. I already said a gazillion times that the average power consumption per year isn't the problem.

I guess that you will also be very surprised if you plug 1k smart phone chargers in one outlet and the fuse pops... the phones don't use more power that it should deliver after all..

And no, there isn't any grid yet that deals with a significant number of BEV. Norway used to be a net exporter....

WIederling wrote:
. ( or do I make a thinking error here.)


I don't think so.

Best regards
Thomas
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Kiwirob
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:13 pm

M564038 wrote:
Your replies are gibberish.

1.Home chargers are maximum 32A. At 230Volts that gives you 7,3 kW. Most car’s built in chargers are 5,5 or 6,1 Kw.



My neighbour installed a home charger, it's 230v 32A 3 phase it will charge at 22 kW.
 
WIederling
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:27 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Your replies are gibberish.

1.Home chargers are maximum 32A. At 230Volts that gives you 7,3 kW. Most car’s built in chargers are 5,5 or 6,1 Kw.



My neighbour installed a home charger, it's 230v 32A 3 phase it will charge at 22 kW.


What my tankless water heater has as ~ power rating. Rather usual here.
But:
3phase 400V AC ( our house is fused to 63A per phase ) is not easily available where the supply is split phase @ 120V/240V AC or something.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:30 pm

M564038 wrote:
A 70kWh Tesla 3 use 30 minutes more over 1000Km than driving non-stop. you are a very dangerous driver if you don’t have a break like that on that distance.

Even a 28kWh Ioniq will use about an hour more.


Range limitations are a bullshit argument against EVs these days.


They are not bullshit arguments, your 30 minutes extra over 1000km however is a complete fantasy at the moment.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:36 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
A 70kWh Tesla 3 use 30 minutes more over 1000Km than driving non-stop. you are a very dangerous driver if you don’t have a break like that on that distance.

Even a 28kWh Ioniq will use about an hour more.


Range limitations are a bullshit argument against EVs these days.


They are not bullshit arguments, your 30 minutes extra over 1000km however is a complete fantasy at the moment.


I think that is a misunderstanding: Start with full battery, go 500km, charge 30 min, go another 500km.

Problem would rather be that is essentially 0 to 100% charging, and that isn´t quite that fast.

best regards
Thomas
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Kiwirob
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:11 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
A 70kWh Tesla 3 use 30 minutes more over 1000Km than driving non-stop. you are a very dangerous driver if you don’t have a break like that on that distance.

Even a 28kWh Ioniq will use about an hour more.


Range limitations are a bullshit argument against EVs these days.


They are not bullshit arguments, your 30 minutes extra over 1000km however is a complete fantasy at the moment.


I think that is a misunderstanding: Start with full battery, go 500km, charge 30 min, go another 500km.

Problem would rather be that is essentially 0 to 100% charging, and that isn´t quite that fast.

best regards
Thomas


What electric car on the market today will charge a battery enough in 30 minutes to enable 500km of range? Even the fastest charging electric car on sale today, the Taycan, can't fully charge its battery at an 800v charger in 30minutes.

In our A6 Avant 2.0 TDI quattro last summer we drove from home in Molde to Copenhagen, which is about 1100km, stopped in Olso for a night, stopped Goteborg, 2 nights and didn't fill up until just outside of Malmo, all up just over 1000km on 73 litres of diesel. Time spent refuelling about 10 minutes. I just can't see that happening in any current EV.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:32 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

They are not bullshit arguments, your 30 minutes extra over 1000km however is a complete fantasy at the moment.


I think that is a misunderstanding: Start with full battery, go 500km, charge 30 min, go another 500km.

Problem would rather be that is essentially 0 to 100% charging, and that isn´t quite that fast.

best regards
Thomas


What electric car on the market today will charge a battery enough in 30 minutes to enable 500km of range? Even the fastest charging electric car on sale today, the Taycan, can't fully charge its battery at an 800v charger in 30minutes.


None, as I said "it isn't quite that fast".
Peak charging will probably give you enough juice per minute to charge 500km in 30 min, if you have a battery where that is going from 20 to 80% or so. ... a 150 kwh battery would do that trick, but, surprise, that doesn't exist...

In our A6 Avant 2.0 TDI quattro last summer we drove from home in Molde to Copenhagen, which is about 1100km, stopped in Olso for a night, stopped Goteborg, 2 nights and didn't fill up until just outside of Malmo, all up just over 1000km on 73 litres of diesel. Time spent refuelling about 10 minutes. I just can't see that happening in any current EV.


Exactly. Plus of course not everyone drives alone, so people may drive 1000km with just a quick stop to switch drivers, or you go somewhere 500km in the morning, take a meeting*, have lunch with the customer in their cafeteria, drive back 500km. Easy on a tank full of diesel, impossible with a BEV. And if you do that a lot for work, 30~45 min two or three times a week adds up to some 80 hours a year. I can here how impressed sales people are by that.

Best regards
Thomas

*essentially all larger companies now have charging on their parking lot, but good luck getting one of those with a 9 or 10ish arrival.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:43 pm

The previous fwd A6 Avant 2.0 TDI we had could easily do 1300km on a tank, the quattro it less efficient but a lot more fun to drive.
 
M564038
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:00 pm

Because you say so?
Lol.

https://youtu.be/_04rk3lIFcM


Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
A 70kWh Tesla 3 use 30 minutes more over 1000Km than driving non-stop. you are a very dangerous driver if you don’t have a break like that on that distance.

Even a 28kWh Ioniq will use about an hour more.


Range limitations are a bullshit argument against EVs these days.


They are not bullshit arguments, your 30 minutes extra over 1000km however is a complete fantasy at the moment.
 
M564038
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:04 pm

Of course we deal with a significant number.
These numbers are well understood by now.
You have a hangup on fantasies of doom you need to let go of.


tommy1808 wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Once again you simply ignore the fact that WE have real measurable numbers from a cold, harsh climate with massive EV market penetration.

The additional power demand for a 40 million car EV-fleet will be 66 TWh per year.

Totally insignificant.

There you have it.
Stop making up number.




Convinient numbers daily... what is the absolute top, once in a year, peak charging demand. That is essentially the only relevant number. I already said a gazillion times that the average power consumption per year isn't the problem.

I guess that you will also be very surprised if you plug 1k smart phone chargers in one outlet and the fuse pops... the phones don't use more power that it should deliver after all..

And no, there isn't any grid yet that deals with a significant number of BEV. Norway used to be a net exporter....

WIederling wrote:
. ( or do I make a thinking error here.)


I don't think so.

Best regards
Thomas
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:04 pm

M564038 wrote:
Because you say so?
Lol.

https://youtu.be/_04rk3lIFcM


That is ~90 min to 2 hours longer, not 30 minutes.

Best regards
Thomas
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tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:05 pm

M564038 wrote:
Of course we deal with a significant number.
These numbers are well understood by now.
You have a hangup on fantasies of doom you need to let go of.


Nah, I am actually working in that field and hear about those problems and ideas in just every other meeting.

Best regards
Thomas
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:13 pm

There are extreme long driving cases where EVs do not now work. There were more, far more, extreme cases where a 70 mile battery worked. As for the former, what company (or private business man) would more often than occasionally drive 600 miles a day, or 6 hours. Oddly there are two EV trucks out there which will do it with one minimal charging.
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos