Kiwirob
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:35 pm

M564038 wrote:
Because you say so?
Lol.

https://youtu.be/_04rk3lIFcM


Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
A 70kWh Tesla 3 use 30 minutes more over 1000Km than driving non-stop. you are a very dangerous driver if you don’t have a break like that on that distance.

Even a 28kWh Ioniq will use about an hour more.


Range limitations are a bullshit argument against EVs these days.


They are not bullshit arguments, your 30 minutes extra over 1000km however is a complete fantasy at the moment.


So you’ve never watched any of Bjørn Nylands 1000km videos, he’s never tested a single car which has been able to do 500km on a single charge, his route is from Oslo to near Malmo return. I’m going to take his real world tests over your fantasy world BS.
 
M564038
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 14, 2020 5:44 pm

Says Kiwirob, as a reply to one of Bjørn’s videos.

I never said anything about 500Km in one go, though.
Driving Oslo-Trondheim (520Km)with a T3, I do have to charge for 7 minutes during winter.



Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Because you say so?
Lol.

https://youtu.be/_04rk3lIFcM


Kiwirob wrote:

They are not bullshit arguments, your 30 minutes extra over 1000km however is a complete fantasy at the moment.


So you’ve never watched any of Bjørn Nylands 1000km videos, he’s never tested a single car which has been able to do 500km on a single charge, his route is from Oslo to near Malmo return. I’m going to take his real world tests over your fantasy world BS.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:04 am

M564038 wrote:
Says Kiwirob, as a reply to one of Bjørn’s videos.

I never said anything about 500Km in one go, though.
Driving Oslo-Trondheim (520Km)with a T3, I do have to charge for 7 minutes during winter.



Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Because you say so?
Lol.

https://youtu.be/_04rk3lIFcM




So you’ve never watched any of Bjørn Nylands 1000km videos, he’s never tested a single car which has been able to do 500km on a single charge, his route is from Oslo to near Malmo return. I’m going to take his real world tests over your fantasy world BS.


Sure you do
 
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Aesma
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:33 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Your replies are gibberish.

1.Home chargers are maximum 32A. At 230Volts that gives you 7,3 kW. Most car’s built in chargers are 5,5 or 6,1 Kw.



My neighbour installed a home charger, it's 230v 32A 3 phase it will charge at 22 kW.


But only the Renault Zoe can take 22kW AC.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sun Feb 16, 2020 12:34 pm

WIederling wrote:
Another issue i have is that some of the LNG propulsion solutions just don't make sense.
Germany has ordered new emergency tugs with LNG propulsion.
https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schleswi ... er102.html
These ships are mostly idle in port. Keeping the LNG in their tanks refrigerated will be expensive.
( Preferred is running the engines gas supply with boil off from the tanks.)


The goal is to avoid air pollution, which is worst felt in ports. Of course a more logical way would be diesel engines running on the same diesel fuel used by trucks, instead of the nasty bunk stuff full of sulfur.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:15 pm

There are complications moving from bunker to road diesel.
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WIederling
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:47 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
There are complications moving from bunker to road diesel.


not really. ( and you don't use "road diesel" anyway for switching away from bunker Oil.)

The shipping I have contact with can swap between something comparable to heavy heating oil and bunker oil.
Now what is commonly known as "bunker oil" in the US is a wide spec range of
differently refined fuels ( qualities A-L ).
Common IMU is that they need heating (reduce viscosity)
and solids cleaning before being ready for use.

at the core for polution is sulfur free, low or "more".

EU harbors, waterways tend to demand < 0.1 sulfur.

OT: someone wrote up a bit about marine fuels:
https://www.cruisetricks.de/marinediese ... eberblick/
no idea if this will succumb to google translate, try it anyway.
Last edited by WIederling on Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:50 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
So you’ve never watched any of Bjørn Nylands 1000km videos.


Going by way of charger hopping.
Stressfull and nothing in the way of talking about day to day regular use.

10h for 1000km @ 100km/h average. Due to charging times "Pedal to the metal" while going.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:50 am

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Your replies are gibberish.

1.Home chargers are maximum 32A. At 230Volts that gives you 7,3 kW. Most car’s built in chargers are 5,5 or 6,1 Kw.



My neighbour installed a home charger, it's 230v 32A 3 phase it will charge at 22 kW.


But only the Renault Zoe can take 22kW AC.


His Audi Etron will charge using it.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:21 am

Aesma wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Another issue i have is that some of the LNG propulsion solutions just don't make sense.
Germany has ordered new emergency tugs with LNG propulsion.
https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schleswi ... er102.html
These ships are mostly idle in port. Keeping the LNG in their tanks refrigerated will be expensive.
( Preferred is running the engines gas supply with boil off from the tanks.)


The goal is to avoid air pollution, which is worst felt in ports. Of course a more logical way would be diesel engines running on the same diesel fuel used by trucks, instead of the nasty bunk stuff full of sulfur.


I am just wondering if the boil of is just about right to power hotel mode....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:32 am

tommy1808 wrote:
I am just wondering if the boil of is just about right to power hotel mode....


These ships usually get a grid connection to shore. "ShorePower"
Keeping heating working ( living quarters but up front engine room / engines, .. )

Maybe boil off could work. Difficult to estimate.
Murphy is an optimist
 
M564038
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:49 pm

Didn’t know the e-tron(a terrible car, btw.) could do that. 22kWh was a special french Zoe thing.

The point is that the peak grid loads Tommy has fixated on, is only a product of his imagination, and that the real life grid usage of EVs had proven to be much more evenly distributed around the clock.

Peak hour prices and smart load distrubution boxes are only going to add to that.

As a matter of fact, people going LED with home lighting have a bigger impact on the grid than EVs.



Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

My neighbour installed a home charger, it's 230v 32A 3 phase it will charge at 22 kW.


But only the Renault Zoe can take 22kW AC.


His Audi Etron will charge using it.
 
M564038
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:51 pm

M564038 wrote:
Didn’t know the e-tron(a terrible car, btw.) could do that. 22kWh was a special french Zoe thing.

The point is that the peak grid loads Tommy has fixated on, is only a product of his imagination, and that the real life grid usage of EVs had proven to be much more evenly distributed around the clock.

Peak hour prices and smart load distrubution boxes are only going to add to that.

As a matter of fact, people going LED with home lighting have a bigger impact on the grid than EVs.

As for you doubting a M3 LR could do Oslo-Trondheim with 7 minute charge, I can only tell you to try it.

It is the new people’s car, after all, O have done it numerous times.


(Sent from my M3)



Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:

But only the Renault Zoe can take 22kW AC.


His Audi Etron will charge using it.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:32 pm

M564038 wrote:
Didn’t know the e-tron(a terrible car, btw.) could do that. 22kWh was a special french Zoe thing.

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:

But only the Renault Zoe can take 22kW AC.


His Audi Etron will charge using it.


The E-trons not so bad, it's a much nicer car to sit in and to actually drive than any Tesla, the range might not be the best in class but as electric vehicle owners love to point out nobody drives that far most days and with rapid recharging points springing up all over Norway it won't be a problem. The 2020 models have been upgraded and now travel further than the 2019 models, and I'd probably put money on it the 2021 model will also have a range improvement.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:36 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Didn’t know the e-tron(a terrible car, btw.) could do that. 22kWh was a special french Zoe thing.

Kiwirob wrote:

His Audi Etron will charge using it.


The E-trons not so bad, it's a much nicer car to sit in and to actually drive than any Tesla, the range might not be the best in class but as electric vehicle owners love to point out nobody drives that far most days and with rapid recharging points springing up all over Norway it won't be a problem. The 2020 models have been upgraded and now travel further than the 2019 models, and I'd probably put money on it the 2021 model will also have a range improvement.


The Etron also charges pretty fast...

M564038 wrote:
The point is that the peak grid loads Tommy has fixated on, is only a product of his imagination, and that the real life grid usage of EVs had proven to be much more evenly distributed around the clock.


I am pretty sure i am not the only one that noticed how quick you dropped your Norway example after it showed the opposite of what you claimed it would.
In fact it shows that we would not have enough Power to cover BEVs if all countries in the European grid had the same BEV penetration.... and even Norway is far from 100% BEV.

Peak hour prices and smart load distrubution boxes are only going to add to that.


Demand controlling via peak prices was one of my "fantasies", remember....
Of course you can keep the grid working of you can toss anyone not willing to pay a euro/kwh....

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
M564038
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:10 pm

What do you mean dropped my Norway-example?
I haven’t.

EVs are incredibly succsessful in Norway, and no one could ever imagine a technology change could happen that fast.
Being a cold, nordic climate with every thinkable weather, infrastructural and distance challenge not only makes it an excellent proving ground, but also makes it a prime examples of how great EVs has become.
It is absolutely certain that EVs are the future.

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Didn’t know the e-tron(a terrible car, btw.) could do that. 22kWh was a special french Zoe thing.



The E-trons not so bad, it's a much nicer car to sit in and to actually drive than any Tesla, the range might not be the best in class but as electric vehicle owners love to point out nobody drives that far most days and with rapid recharging points springing up all over Norway it won't be a problem. The 2020 models have been upgraded and now travel further than the 2019 models, and I'd probably put money on it the 2021 model will also have a range improvement.


The Etron also charges pretty fast...

M564038 wrote:
The point is that the peak grid loads Tommy has fixated on, is only a product of his imagination, and that the real life grid usage of EVs had proven to be much more evenly distributed around the clock.


I am pretty sure i am not the only one that noticed how quick you dropped your Norway example after it showed the opposite of what you claimed it would.
In fact it shows that we would not have enough Power to cover BEVs if all countries in the European grid had the same BEV penetration.... and even Norway is far from 100% BEV.

Peak hour prices and smart load distrubution boxes are only going to add to that.


Demand controlling via peak prices was one of my "fantasies", remember....
Of course you can keep the grid working of you can toss anyone not willing to pay a euro/kwh....

Best regards
Thomas
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:51 pm

M564038 wrote:
What do you mean dropped my Norway-example?
I haven’t.

EVs are incredibly succsessful in Norway, and no one could ever imagine a technology change could happen that fast.
Being a cold, nordic climate with every thinkable weather, infrastructural and distance challenge not only makes it an excellent proving ground, but also makes it a prime examples of how great EVs has become.
It is absolutely certain that EVs are the future.

tommy1808 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

The E-trons not so bad, it's a much nicer car to sit in and to actually drive than any Tesla, the range might not be the best in class but as electric vehicle owners love to point out nobody drives that far most days and with rapid recharging points springing up all over Norway it won't be a problem. The 2020 models have been upgraded and now travel further than the 2019 models, and I'd probably put money on it the 2021 model will also have a range improvement.


The Etron also charges pretty fast...

M564038 wrote:
The point is that the peak grid loads Tommy has fixated on, is only a product of his imagination, and that the real life grid usage of EVs had proven to be much more evenly distributed around the clock.


I am pretty sure i am not the only one that noticed how quick you dropped your Norway example after it showed the opposite of what you claimed it would.
In fact it shows that we would not have enough Power to cover BEVs if all countries in the European grid had the same BEV penetration.... and even Norway is far from 100% BEV.

Peak hour prices and smart load distrubution boxes are only going to add to that.


Demand controlling via peak prices was one of my "fantasies", remember....
Of course you can keep the grid working of you can toss anyone not willing to pay a euro/kwh....

Best regards
Thomas


The only reason why BEVs are incredibly successful
In Norway is due to govt intervention in the market. If there were no incentives to get people into BEV’s the market wouldn’t exist. The same thing happened when the govt about 12 years ago decided diesel was better and changed the playing field to ensure everyone bought diesel. If the govt had left the market alone BEVs wouldn’t be popular, you know it, I know it and so does anyone else who has been following the Norwegian market.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:10 pm

And the only reason why gas vehicles are successful is the US spending $3 trillion and counting in the Mideast??
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 18, 2020 5:50 am

Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
What do you mean dropped my Norway-example?
I haven’t.

EVs are incredibly succsessful in Norway, and no one could ever imagine a technology change could happen that fast.
Being a cold, nordic climate with every thinkable weather, infrastructural and distance challenge not only makes it an excellent proving ground, but also makes it a prime examples of how great EVs has become.
It is absolutely certain that EVs are the future.

tommy1808 wrote:

The Etron also charges pretty fast...



I am pretty sure i am not the only one that noticed how quick you dropped your Norway example after it showed the opposite of what you claimed it would.
In fact it shows that we would not have enough Power to cover BEVs if all countries in the European grid had the same BEV penetration.... and even Norway is far from 100% BEV.



Demand controlling via peak prices was one of my "fantasies", remember....
Of course you can keep the grid working of you can toss anyone not willing to pay a euro/kwh....

Best regards
Thomas


The only reason why BEVs are incredibly successful
In Norway is due to govt intervention in the market. If there were no incentives to get people into BEV’s the market wouldn’t exist.


I never looked into the details in Norway, but it sounds to me that someone using ferries and toll roads a lot can essentially pick up a Tesla for free compared to what a budget ICE costs them to run.

best regards
Thomas
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Aesma
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:42 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

My neighbour installed a home charger, it's 230v 32A 3 phase it will charge at 22 kW.


But only the Renault Zoe can take 22kW AC.


His Audi Etron will charge using it.


Good to know.

The name of that car in French however...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:48 am

Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Aesma wrote:

But only the Renault Zoe can take 22kW AC.


His Audi Etron will charge using it.


Good to know.

The name of that car in French however...


first attempts are often kinda shitty.... :D

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:45 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

His Audi Etron will charge using it.


Good to know.

The name of that car in French however...


first attempts are often kinda shitty.... :D

best regards
Thomas


I wouldn't call the E-tron shitty, range isn't amazing, but fast charging makes up for it, and as a place to sit and drive in comfort I can't think of any other BEV except the Taycan that's as nice. Probably why it outsold the Model 3 for the last 3 months of 2019 in Norway.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 18, 2020 9:06 am

Kiwirob wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Good to know.

The name of that car in French however...


first attempts are often kinda shitty.... :D

best regards
Thomas


I wouldn't call the E-tron shitty


i know, it was just a pun,..

and as a place to sit and drive in comfort I can't think of any other BEV except the Taycan


of course, its an Audi. I am not fond of the brand, but they do know how to put cars together.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Aesma
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:27 pm

I saw a video test of electric car ranges in real conditions (all starting together, how far they would go), the TM3 won, the Kona second. Comfort of the Mercedes was praised, over the Audi.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
mrgrtt123
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:39 am

This is kind of off topic but still car related, I am planning to change rims and have seen these TIS wheels online. Is there anyone here who has it installed in their car? What are your thoughts about it?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:33 am

Aesma wrote:
I saw a video test of electric car ranges in real conditions (all starting together, how far they would go), the TM3 won, the Kona second. Comfort of the Mercedes was praised, over the Audi.


The Advantage of the Audi, and the Taycan (and as far as early testing indicated the ID series), is it charges really fast if you charge like most people fuel: With 1/4 to 1/2 a tank. Now for me, i happily drive my Diesel to 0 km indicated range, the Model 3 charging behavior would be better, but others may not.

The hilarious bit is actually how Tesla-Fanatics try to create data points where a Model 3 out-charges a Taycan, which is kind hard with its charging curve being drastically higher ...

Yeah.. no ....

Image

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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seb146
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:44 am

I have seen a link every now and again something about "50 Shades Of Beige Toyota Corolla" about the history of the Toyota Corolla. And, yeah, having driving a Corolla for the past 5+ years, I would say it is pretty meh. Not bad, but not great. Just a set of wheels and internal combustion engine to get from point A to point B. If you want something to get you from here to there, yes. But if you want something to get you from here to there and it was such a great ride with so much stuff and the buttons and luxury and being wrapped in comfort and that sound system and heated this and cooled that and room for my whatever, forget it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:43 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I saw a video test of electric car ranges in real conditions (all starting together, how far they would go), the TM3 won, the Kona second. Comfort of the Mercedes was praised, over the Audi.


The Advantage of the Audi, and the Taycan (and as far as early testing indicated the ID series), is it charges really fast if you charge like most people fuel: With 1/4 to 1/2 a tank. Now for me, i happily drive my Diesel to 0 km indicated range, the Model 3 charging behavior would be better, but others may not.

The hilarious bit is actually how Tesla-Fanatics try to create data points where a Model 3 out-charges a Taycan, which is kind hard with its charging curve being drastically higher ...

Yeah.. no ....

Image

best regards
Thomas


You're like me, I go to zero and beyond, our big car has a 73 litre tank, once I managed to fuel it with 71 litres, most of the time its around 66/67 litres with 0km left to drive.
 
ACDC8
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 19, 2020 9:51 am

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The median American household has only $11,700 in savings, so maybe the question should be "why are people spending so much on cars when they shouldn't ?".


I already answered that question: financing. It’s not about how much you’re willing to pay for a car it’s how *long*

And thats the thing. Many people have car loans up here that are 84 (some even 96) months. When you talk to them, they respond with, "thats only a few years". Thats 7 (or 8) years, they're paying $500 plus a month for 7-8 years. The reality hits them when you explain if you have a kid and they start going to school, your car won't be paid off until they hit Junior High. Reaction is priceless.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:29 am

ACDC8 wrote:
And thats the thing. Many people have car loans up here that are 84 (some even 96) months. When you talk to them, they respond with, "thats only a few years". Thats 7 (or 8) years, they're paying $500 plus a month for 7-8 years. The reality hits them when you explain if you have a kid and they start going to school, your car won't be paid off until they hit Junior High. Reaction is priceless.


Honestly time goes by so fast, you'll never realize it. Last year was supposed to be the year I finished paying up my car loan for my first new car bought in 2012, had I not sold it and bought another 2 cars.

My current car meanwhile is 3 years down its 9 year loan term (yes, here in Malaysia our loans go up to 9 years).
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
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Aesma
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:07 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I saw a video test of electric car ranges in real conditions (all starting together, how far they would go), the TM3 won, the Kona second. Comfort of the Mercedes was praised, over the Audi.


The Advantage of the Audi, and the Taycan (and as far as early testing indicated the ID series), is it charges really fast if you charge like most people fuel: With 1/4 to 1/2 a tank. Now for me, i happily drive my Diesel to 0 km indicated range, the Model 3 charging behavior would be better, but others may not.

The hilarious bit is actually how Tesla-Fanatics try to create data points where a Model 3 out-charges a Taycan, which is kind hard with its charging curve being drastically higher ...

Yeah.. no ....

Image

best regards
Thomas


Not many Porsche chargers out there, though.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ACDC8
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:17 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
ACDC8 wrote:
And thats the thing. Many people have car loans up here that are 84 (some even 96) months. When you talk to them, they respond with, "thats only a few years". Thats 7 (or 8) years, they're paying $500 plus a month for 7-8 years. The reality hits them when you explain if you have a kid and they start going to school, your car won't be paid off until they hit Junior High. Reaction is priceless.


Honestly time goes by so fast, you'll never realize it. Last year was supposed to be the year I finished paying up my car loan for my first new car bought in 2012, had I not sold it and bought another 2 cars.

My current car meanwhile is 3 years down its 9 year loan term (yes, here in Malaysia our loans go up to 9 years).

I don’t know how the finance business works in Malaysia, but in Canada, if you need 7, 8 or 9 years to pay off a car, you can’t afford the car.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
JJJ
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:25 pm

Aesma wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I saw a video test of electric car ranges in real conditions (all starting together, how far they would go), the TM3 won, the Kona second. Comfort of the Mercedes was praised, over the Audi.


The Advantage of the Audi, and the Taycan (and as far as early testing indicated the ID series), is it charges really fast if you charge like most people fuel: With 1/4 to 1/2 a tank. Now for me, i happily drive my Diesel to 0 km indicated range, the Model 3 charging behavior would be better, but others may not.

The hilarious bit is actually how Tesla-Fanatics try to create data points where a Model 3 out-charges a Taycan, which is kind hard with its charging curve being drastically higher ...

Yeah.. no ....

Image

best regards
Thomas


Not many Porsche chargers out there, though.


There's quite a few fast chargers the Porsche can choose to use. There aren't Porsche gas stations and still run fine.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:08 pm

ACDC8 wrote:
I don’t know how the finance business works in Malaysia, but in Canada, if you need 7, 8 or 9 years to pay off a car, you can’t afford the car.


Interests are low here. I never pay anything more than 3% p.a. for any of my car loans. That's why banks often give out longer payment terms.

Plus cars are expensive here in Malaysia, relative to income. Which is why electric cars are still a pipe dream here - the cheapest electric car on sale is the Nissan Leaf at $45,353.65. To put things into perspective, the average annual net salary is around $19,686.29.
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Sokes
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 3:03 pm

M564038 wrote:
The point is that the peak grid loads Tommy has fixated on, is only a product of his imagination, and that the real life grid usage of EVs had proven to be much more evenly distributed around the clock.

Peak hour prices and smart load distrubution boxes are only going to add to that.



Agreed to your second sentence.
I wanted to proof you wrong on your first sentence. It turns out I proof myself wrong. UK's "National Grid" estimates that with 9 million cars in 2030 peak grid demand would be 8 GW more.
"Shifting the charging of cars to times when demand is lower would reduce the extra peak demand to 3.5GW"
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ey-point-c

Britain's peak power demand is something around 60 GW, so 8 GW is less dramatic than I thought. The question if same is true if one considers a residential road.

"On Christmas Day, the peak occurs earlier, at lunchtime as we switch on our ovens and cook our special Christmas feast. For example, on Christmas Day 2018 peak demand was for 36.6GW of electricity at 1.30pm."
https://www.nationalgrideso.com/media/w ... -heres-our

With industries and offices closed, demand is not much nation or even city wide.
If by any chance two people want to recharge with 250 kW in the same residential road at this time?
Another problem for residential roads are football championship breaks. Lots of people open the fridge, lots of fridges start the same time. Power operators keep extra capacity online for this moment.

As you said: distribution boxes need to be smart, prices must vary widely.
Electric mobility can also be a blessing, if smart meters know that at 3 o'clock in the morning there will be excess wind energy.
And if the smart meter gets a signal to stop charging for 5 minutes during the championship break, a few power plants less may have to be started for 5 minutes. However with extra transmission capacity from Norway this problem may get solved by itself.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:09 pm

Sokes wrote:
As you said: distribution boxes need to be smart, prices must vary widely.
.


Fun fact: they wouldn't be needed if his initial claim "no problem" held water... that is why he changed his position. Smart metering and demand control via price was one of my fantasies. Until he realized it is absolutely needed as I, and iirc you, claimed.
That the total amount of energy needed is not all that terrible high was not disputed.

Best regards
Thomas
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frmrCapCadet
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:52 pm

There will be no sudden increase in the total number of electric cars on the road. It is happening very slowly now, but accelerating. I expect some local problems, some district problems. As the total number of electric cars plugged in a the same time increases smart meters will be required. The 'Tinfoil Hat' contingent will complain, but those who want to refuse a smart meter will just pay the full price all day around.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:01 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
The 'Tinfoil Hat' contingent will complain, but those who want to refuse a smart meter will just pay the full price all day around.


:checkmark:
There will also be, either via legislation or supply contract, a deadline to replace dumb wall boxes with those controllable via smart meter gateways. Their roll out has begun about half a year ago here.

Best regards
Thomas
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L410Turbolet
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:30 pm

[
seb146 wrote:
Just a set of wheels and internal combustion engine to get from point A to point B. If you want something to get you from here to there, yes. But if you want something to get you from here to there and it was such a great ride with so much stuff and the buttons and luxury and being wrapped in comfort and that sound system and heated this and cooled that and room for my whatever, forget it.


Did Corolla ever pretend to be anything but a vehicle that tries to stick to the original purpose of a car... getting people from A to B by offering reasonably good bang for the buck, good durability and reliability with adequate comfort. Not a car to help one keep up with the Joneses, alleviate one's SPS or show off one's social status.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:07 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Did Corolla ever pretend to be anything but a vehicle that tries to stick to the original purpose of a car... getting people from A to B by offering reasonably good bang for the buck, good durability and reliability with adequate comfort. Not a car to help one keep up with the Joneses, alleviate one's SPS or show off one's social status.

Sure, just as most cars like it do :
Image

Tugg
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mham001
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:34 am

tommy1808 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
While a 200 mile range is necessary to avoid anxiety most are driving less than 50 miles a day. Not much of a draw on the grid.


Only w/o days where lots of people drive long distances like holidays, beginning of vacation times. And 50 miles/day is still 100% increase in domestic electricity use in most places....
Oh, and you should be hooked to the grid when there is plenty of power....

Best regards
Thomas


You have vastly overestimated electric demands in your fear mongering (I believe it has more to do with trying to defend a dying German ICE industry). There will never be 40 million cars in Germany connected to the grid at one time. There will never be 40 million cars in Germany connected over the course of an entire day, because people just don't drive that much. Most charge only every few days or even once a week and most charge at night. You said something about cars connected for 8-12 hours a day. Complete nonsense, a charge that long indicates a very small charger, I have a car that takes 9+ hours to fully charge, but that is only at ~13 amps @ 110v. For perspective, this is about the draw of a full sized microwave or hair dryer. Those big travel days you forsee as a problem - if people are sitting in cars, then nobody is working and industrial use is nil. Where I live, there is no problem with the proposed future needs even at this time because of excess capacity after 7PM, perhaps your fears are also grounded in Germany's senseless energy policies?
At any rate, the true future is going to see many more private grids with home batteries. It is here now and with rates hitting $.40/kWh, they can kiss my a$$ goodbye.
 
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seb146
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:42 am

Tugger wrote:
L410Turbolet wrote:
Did Corolla ever pretend to be anything but a vehicle that tries to stick to the original purpose of a car... getting people from A to B by offering reasonably good bang for the buck, good durability and reliability with adequate comfort. Not a car to help one keep up with the Joneses, alleviate one's SPS or show off one's social status.

Sure, just as most cars like it do :
Image

Tugg


Corolla is actually trying to be something after decades of blah. I stick with the person who came up with "50 Shades Of Beige" to describe the Corolla. The best thing Toyota did after giving up on Scion was roll those ideas into the Corolla and Yaris lines.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Sokes
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:30 am

tommy1808 wrote:
[
There will also be, either via legislation or supply contract, a deadline to replace dumb wall boxes with those controllable via smart meter gateways. Their roll out has begun about half a year ago here.

Best regards
Thomas


You have some link?

My earlier argument was wrong. 9 million cars lead to an peak power increase of 8 GW. How much peak power increase for 27 million cars?
If the expected peak power demand of cars coincide with peak power demand today the answer is clear. But what if peak power for cars are during holidays when industry is closed? Then 8 GW for 9 million cars does not equal 24 extra GW for 27 million electric cars. It may also be 50 GW. Pure speculation.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
mham001
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:39 am

Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
A 70kWh Tesla 3 use 30 minutes more over 1000Km than driving non-stop. you are a very dangerous driver if you don’t have a break like that on that distance.

Even a 28kWh Ioniq will use about an hour more.


Range limitations are a bullshit argument against EVs these days.


They are not bullshit arguments, your 30 minutes extra over 1000km however is a complete fantasy at the moment.


No, it is a bullshit argument because range IS there, it just may not be as fast as your anti-Tesla/American goalposts this year. This claim about non-stop 900km trips that few people well ever do is just a canard. For those with electrics and such a need somehow suddenly arose - let's say Aunt Martha was going to die in those 30 extra minutes spent eating lunch while charging the car - then you just rent an ICE. Otherwise, you arrive less tired and more relaxed because the electric driving experience is superior in every other way.
 
Sokes
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:43 am

mham001 wrote:
...perhaps your fears are also grounded in Germany's senseless energy policies?
At any rate, the true future is going to see many more private grids with home batteries. It is here now and with rates hitting $.40/kWh, they can kiss my a$$ goodbye.


If you can offer batteries for 0,4 $/ kWh capacity, you will soon be able to say to Jeff Bezos "Your poverty sucks.".
How can I be your friend?

Germany's energy policies are senseless? Where do you think solar would be without the subsidy the German and Spanish consumer paid for development?
I appreciate that you are willing to invest in home batteries. Your subsidy will pay for the development of battery technology.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
B777LRF
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:21 am

The girlfriend and I like to do really long road trips, sometimes a bit spontaneous. A few years ago we decided to head off to Brussels where I used to live and work, and drove there non-stop. It's roughly a 1000 km drive, which I suppose would also be doable in an leecy' car with a few extended stops for charging. Last summer, however, we went on a 7000 km road trip through Europe, where we drove for one day and then spent a few days in each location. The shortest stint was around 600 km (Croatia to Italy), but the longest was almost 1800 km (France to Denmark), which we did non-stop. Our longest break along the way was 45 minutes for dinner, apart from that only short stops for fuel, calls of nature and driver change.

When a leecy' car can do that without adding a couple of hours to the journey time for charging, you have my attention.

PS
Test drove a CL63 AMG the other day, an '08 model with the 6.2 litre NA V8. Glorious sound, gorgeous design and - in true S-Class fashion - had all the toys 12 years ago which is only starting to become standard on lower rung cars today. But unless you're the owner of an oil well it's preposterously expensive to run; 20 litres per 100 km was what the trip computer said was the average it had done. Didn't drive all that well either, at least to my taste. Felt a bit boat like in it's handling, and is basically a point-and-squirt tool. But, oh, the sound! Didn't buy it, in case you wondered; a BMW 6-series drive much nicer to my taste, so that's the direction I'm headed at. Mine will be a 650 with the 4,4 litre V8. One day very soon it'll be impossible to buy and run such cars, so I'm availing myself of the opportunity before it disappears, even if it makes my public enemy no. 1 in the eyes of the Thunberg crowd.
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tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:40 am

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
[
There will also be, either via legislation or supply contract, a deadline to replace dumb wall boxes with those controllable via smart meter gateways. Their roll out has begun about half a year ago here.

Best regards
Thomas


You have some link?


for the requirement or the smart meter roll out? For the latter there where press releases https://www.eon.com/de/ueber-uns/presse ... eways.html
For the former not as far as i know, it is what our customers tell us and is fairly obvious: why have a smart grid, a smart meter requirement (!) starting at an annual 6000 KWh*, and not require the single biggest load sink to talk to it....

My earlier argument was wrong. 9 million cars lead to an peak power increase of 8 GW. How much peak power increase for 27 million cars?
If the expected peak power demand of cars coincide with peak power demand today the answer is clear. But what if peak power for cars are during holidays when industry is closed? Then 8 GW for 9 million cars does not equal 24 extra GW for 27 million electric cars. It may also be 50 GW. Pure speculation.


no one knows yet, especially since wall boxes are not all that common yet ..... but you absolutely want them as a load sink for excess production, which would be most of the time in a system delivering stable power from renewables only.

mham001 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
While a 200 mile range is necessary to avoid anxiety most are driving less than 50 miles a day. Not much of a draw on the grid.


Only w/o days where lots of people drive long distances like holidays, beginning of vacation times. And 50 miles/day is still 100% increase in domestic electricity use in most places....
Oh, and you should be hooked to the grid when there is plenty of power....

Best regards
Thomas


You have vastly overestimated electric demands in your fear mongering


i haven´t

(I believe it has more to do with trying to defend a dying German ICE industry).


BS, i am quite consistent in stating that we need to go all renewable, and that won´t work without electric vehicles. I like hydrogen fuel cell for longer range cars a lot better, since they are a) lighter, b) once we have 100% renewable we have overproduction at most times and, since we already have enough storage for several month worth of hydrogen, but for mere minutes for electricity the relative inefficiency becomes fairly irrelevant.
I am also pretty consistent in stating that i don´t think BEV are a thread to the German car industry, as the enormous R&D budget (German car R&D/year = Teslas turnover) always wins in the long run, and have done so for years. Noticed that even the rather mediocre debut car eTron is outselling Tesla in some key markets.... ?
I am also drawing a good deal of my pay for making the grid ready for the onslaught of BEV, so i am pretty fine with the consequences.

There will never be 40 million cars in Germany connected to the grid at one time.


I made quite clear i don´t expect all 40 million cars connected to the grid, i used 40 Million (to high) times 3.7 KW (very low, as most BEV have 7.4 or more) to point out the magnitude of power draw BEV can have.

There will never be 40 million cars in Germany connected over the course of an entire day, because people just don't drive that much.


All BEV or PHEV drivers, admittedly only half a dozen so far, i know hook it up every chance they get. Those 8~10 KWh/day the average car will need to drive its average 40km become a lot if people plug that in when they get home for work, because for most people that is some time between 5 and 7pm, and recharging that from a wall socket takes 2-3 hours......

Most charge only every few days or even once a week and most charge at night. You said something about cars connected for 8-12 hours a day.


that is the available grid connected time, not the time they actually charged. In case you have missed that again, i am on record that BEVs can be handled by the grid, but that it will require a smart grid, and that comes with supply controlled pricing... so your energy might get really pricy if you want to charge at the "right" time.

I have a car that takes 9+ hours to fully charge, but that is only at ~13 amps @ 110v.


So will my next car, as that will also be a PHEV, only with [email protected]

Those big travel days you forsee as a problem - if people are sitting in cars, then nobody is working and industrial use is nil.


BEV usually don´t charge when people sit in them. The problem is them getting home and plugging in their cars. Just 10% of an all BEV fleet connected to the grid via a 11KW Wall box charger doubles base load, and together with base load exceed production and grid capacity. You don´t need anyone working to make that a lot of power.

Where I live, there is no problem with the proposed future needs even at this time because of excess capacity after 7PM


whats the share of BEV in your area.... some 30% of BEV turned Norway from a rather large energy exporter into an importer.

perhaps your fears are also grounded in Germany's senseless energy policies?


considering that we have the arguably most stable grid on the planet**, despite 75% peak renewable, providing that power i see no reason to think we have senseless energy policies (beyond running those lignite plants), espechially considering that you pay

It is here now and with rates hitting $.40/kWh, they can kiss my a$$ goodbye.


and i pay

Image

best regards
Thomas

*6000KWh/year is above average for a 4-person household with electric water heating around here.
**average power outage accumulated time per user: less than 14 minutes, while in the US it is 112 minutes
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tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:43 am

Sokes wrote:
mham001 wrote:
...perhaps your fears are also grounded in Germany's senseless energy policies?
At any rate, the true future is going to see many more private grids with home batteries. It is here now and with rates hitting $.40/kWh, they can kiss my a$$ goodbye.


If you can offer batteries for 0,4 $/ kWh capacity, you will soon be able to say to Jeff Bezos "Your poverty sucks.".


if he stores excess solar power the battery/its electronics can cost 400USD/KWh and make it break even for him.

best regards
Thomas
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Sokes
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:10 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Sokes wrote:

You have some link?


for the requirement or the smart meter roll out? For the latter there where press releases https://www.eon.com/de/ueber-uns/presse ... eways.html
...
since we already have enough storage for several month worth of hydrogen, but for mere minutes for electricity the relative inefficiency becomes fairly irrelevant.


So I can anytime know how much electricity my fridge needs. What's smart about this meter? Is this one meter for the house or one for the washing machine, one for the fridge and one for the car battery charger? Can I program them to start at 3 o'clock in the morning or better just tell when the washing has to be ready?
That link doesn't tell.

Can you expand on hydrogen storage?
Can you expand on Norway becoming a power importer? That's by the way great. They can absorb excess wind power from Britain/ continental Europe.
Why can't the world be a little bit more autistic?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is There a Market for a Plain, Ordinary Car?

Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:41 am

Sokes wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Sokes wrote:

You have some link?


for the requirement or the smart meter roll out? For the latter there where press releases https://www.eon.com/de/ueber-uns/presse ... eways.html
...
since we already have enough storage for several month worth of hydrogen, but for mere minutes for electricity the relative inefficiency becomes fairly irrelevant.


So I can anytime know how much electricity my fridge needs. What's smart about this meter? Is this one meter for the house or one for the washing machine, one for the fridge and one for the car battery charger? Can I program them to start at 3 o'clock in the morning or better just tell when the washing has to be ready?
That link doesn't tell.


It makes your meter into a communication device that *can* talk to devices you have in your home, mostly to feed tariff information/grid status into them. In case of excess power it may tell devices to use more power than in normal operation (Freezer cooling beyond -18° to "store" cold, electric heating elements doing some water heating beyond the normal target temperature and your car may know now is the cheapest time to charge). What exactly devices will make out of that and how much influence the user can take is to be seem. But i would suspect function like "wash when power is cheap during the night, but regardless of price/up to price be done by 6 am"

Can you expand on hydrogen storage?


much of the natural gas storage and distribution system is from old "Stadtgas" times, that where CO and Hydrogen, and can just as well take pure hydrogen. Newer infrastructure usually just needs minor upgrades. There is a lot of storage in the gas grid outside of strategic gas caverns.

Can you expand on Norway becoming a power importer?


they fell some 2 TWh short last year, first time since 2011 (where a cold winter made them even larger net importers

That's by the way great. They can absorb excess wind power from Britain/ continental Europe.


Sweden, Denmark and Germany made most of it up. It is great that we have a grid enabling that, or Norway would have been dark a couple of times, but it is only great if that is sustainable for the whole grid at all times. With more BEV, or less wind than in that excellent quarter, those three countries may not have had that excess power to export. So there is lots to do to make that work.

best regards
Thomas
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