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Aaron747
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Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:44 am

So the WH attempted to brief members of Congress to prevent them from adopting limits on the current AUMF and Iran action under the War Powers Act. We could already expect how Dems were going to react, but Senator Lee emerged from closed-door briefings on Iran by the WH foreign policy team completely unimpressed by their information and attitude. Not a good show for the rest of the world to see:

Lee told reporters that he "walked into that briefing undecided" on whether to support a war-powers resolution being pushed by Democratic Sen. Tim Kaine of Virginia. The resolution would limit the Trump administration's ability to take further military action against Iran without congressional authorization.

"That briefing is what changed my mind," Lee said. "I'm now going to support it."


He went on to call the briefing "probably the worst briefing, at least on a military issue, I've seen in nine years I've been here."


https://amp.businessinsider.com/gop-mik ... ike-2020-1

And he told Fox he wasn’t very happy with a particular question, but did not name names as to who refused to answer:

"They told us there would be an imminent attack had they not taken this strike on Friday which, again, for purposes of this conversation, I'm willing to assume may well have been lawful," Lee added "What is the nature of that attack? When would that have occurred? Who would've carried it out? They refused to answer the question."

https://www.foxnews.com/media/mike-lee- ... eimani.amp

This is turning out to be a pretty interesting day with the US ambassador to Afghanistan quitting and news of China offering to help Iraqis with more than petroleum:

https://mobile.twitter.com/global_mil_i ... 8376891392
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:54 am

Haven’t followed Mike Lee much, have you? He’s much like Rand Paul. Both I like very much on many issues.


GF
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:16 am

Neither have I, but he got my attention. Any member of Congress who shows capacity for independent and critical thought is worth attention.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:04 am

I followed him a lot and read his books. Great small government libertarian who sees no reason for the US to be the world’s policeman.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:43 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
I followed him a lot and read his books. Great small government libertarian who sees no reason for the US to be the world’s policeman.


Sounds like he’s not going to sit by and be silent as Pompeo leads his own little holy reformation of the ME.
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LMP737
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:22 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

Sounds like he’s not going to sit by and be silent as Pompeo leads his own little holy reformation of the ME.


Does anyone honestly think anything is going to change? There is virtually no chance a GOP lead Senate is going to stand up to Trump and put the brakes to any of this.
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Aaron747
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:28 pm

LMP737 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Sounds like he’s not going to sit by and be silent as Pompeo leads his own little holy reformation of the ME.


Does anyone honestly think anything is going to change? There is virtually no chance a GOP lead Senate is going to stand up to Trump and put the brakes to any of this.


I dunno about that - Sen. Kaine is open to compromise on the war powers issue, and it only takes 51 votes to implement language that will make make 2002 AUMF invalid for further Iran actions or stop funding for related misadventures. That’s already Lee and Paul off the GOP roster, would not be impossible to get Romney or someone else.
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:41 pm

I like that Sarah Huckabee Sanders (remember her?) is outraged that Congress is attempting to restrict war and is meddling in foreign policy.

She needs to read the Constitution (war powers are reserved for Congress) and someone needs to ask if she was outraged when Cotton and 46 other senators sent a letter to Iran regarding the nuclear deal (i.e. meddled in foreign policy)?
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Ken777
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:12 pm

Looking at video clips of Senator Lee there is little doubt isn my mind that the Good Senator bitch slapped Trump and fools ("Advisors") all over the Oval Office.

Trump continually gets caught when he does stupid things and his killing of the #2 man in Iran was clearly a stupid act - there is no way Trump can deliver a valid justification and tossing "imminent danger" won't cut it without clear evidence delivered to the Gang of Eight.
 
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:54 pm

What's with Trump's speech. Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but lately when he talks he slurs his words is very slow to talk.
I was taken back, but nobody is saying anything. Either he's overtired, or someone slipping him something or he's had a medical issue.

Maybe, he just a slow reader when he uses the teleprompter.
 
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:38 pm

LMP737 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Sounds like he’s not going to sit by and be silent as Pompeo leads his own little holy reformation of the ME.


Does anyone honestly think anything is going to change? There is virtually no chance a GOP lead Senate is going to stand up to Trump and put the brakes to any of this.


Trump campaigned on getting the US out of the “endless wars”; not in one. This is the “good riddance” card. The mullahs are now stewing; their vaunted military only succeeded in a monumental “own goal” and theyre missing the chief terror master. Maybe we can now leave in a deliberate pace and let the ME for itself.

GF
 
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:23 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
What's with Trump's speech. Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but lately when he talks he slurs his words is very slow to talk.
I was taken back, but nobody is saying anything. Either he's overtired, or someone slipping him something or he's had a medical issue.

Maybe, he just a slow reader when he uses the teleprompter.


He's been slurring his words for some time now. I'm expecting his ill-fitting dentures to fall out at any moment. If he doesn't have dentures, then he has a problem.
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Aaron747
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:49 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
What's with Trump's speech. Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but lately when he talks he slurs his words is very slow to talk.
I was taken back, but nobody is saying anything. Either he's overtired, or someone slipping him something or he's had a medical issue.

Maybe, he just a slow reader when he uses the teleprompter.


He is on medication other than just cholesterol control. Close ups from press cameras have caught his pupils oddly dilated even with bright TV lights in his face. Lots of speculation as to what he is on, but no way to confirm since there’s zero transparency and no official press conferences.
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BN747
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:29 am

Aaron747 wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
What's with Trump's speech. Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but lately when he talks he slurs his words is very slow to talk.
I was taken back, but nobody is saying anything. Either he's overtired, or someone slipping him something or he's had a medical issue.

Maybe, he just a slow reader when he uses the teleprompter.


He is on medication other than just cholesterol control. Close ups from press cameras have caught his pupils oddly dilated even with bright TV lights in his face. Lots of speculation as to what he is on, but no way to confirm since there’s zero transparency and no official press conferences.



It's not just a few people noticing, everyone sees it and are left telling themselves 'If something is wrong..why, they'd tell us'.


Ummm, no. No they won't...these are the 'Cover Up Kings of Politics' nothing gets out!..if they can help it.


But me personally, knowing cocaine users when I see (or hear) one - excessive sniffles a dead give away. But his tolerance level is too high...it no longer does the job on him.


BN747
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LMP737
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:57 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Trump campaigned on getting the US out of the “endless wars”; not in one. This is the “good riddance” card. The mullahs are now stewing; their vaunted military only succeeded in a monumental “own goal” and theyre missing the chief terror master. Maybe we can now leave in a deliberate pace and let the ME for itself.

GF


He has a bizarre way of accomplishing this. First withdrawing from a nuclear accord meant to ratchet down tensions and then assassinating one of their generals.
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:01 am

Aaron747 wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
What's with Trump's speech. Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but lately when he talks he slurs his words is very slow to talk.
I was taken back, but nobody is saying anything. Either he's overtired, or someone slipping him something or he's had a medical issue.

Maybe, he just a slow reader when he uses the teleprompter.


He is on medication other than just cholesterol control. Close ups from press cameras have caught his pupils oddly dilated even with bright TV lights in his face. Lots of speculation as to what he is on, but no way to confirm since there’s zero transparency and no official press conferences.


TYT says he's snorting adderall...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwXRa9ywP9s

BN747
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:24 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Haven’t followed Mike Lee much, have you? He’s much like Rand Paul. Both I like very much on many issues.


GF


For the past couple years Rand Paul has been a loyal toddie to Trump. And now he's acting shocked that Trump did what he did. He is right about one thing, you would have to be brain dead to think that Iran will sit down and talk with us now.
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:58 am

scbriml wrote:
If he doesn't have dentures, then he has a problem.


Ummm... yeah, well... he has like a zillion problems, dentures or not.
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:37 am

LMP737 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Haven’t followed Mike Lee much, have you? He’s much like Rand Paul. Both I like very much on many issues.


GF


For the past couple years Rand Paul has been a loyal toddie to Trump. And now he's acting shocked that Trump did what he did. He is right about one thing, you would have to be brain dead to think that Iran will sit down and talk with us now.


These things are relative, no one in DC, or elsewhere, likes Trump particularly; it’s just in comparison to the nutjobs put up in opposition, of either party, makes him the least worse choice. Could anyone really see Hilary or Jeb Bush in office? Plenty bad, though. The US can get away with Smith’s aphorism of “there’s a ruin in a country” due to size, isolation and people.


GF
 
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:20 am

BN747 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
What's with Trump's speech. Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but lately when he talks he slurs his words is very slow to talk.
I was taken back, but nobody is saying anything. Either he's overtired, or someone slipping him something or he's had a medical issue.

Maybe, he just a slow reader when he uses the teleprompter.


He is on medication other than just cholesterol control. Close ups from press cameras have caught his pupils oddly dilated even with bright TV lights in his face. Lots of speculation as to what he is on, but no way to confirm since there’s zero transparency and no official press conferences.


TYT says he's snorting adderall...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwXRa9ywP9s

BN747


Guys, as much as I'd like to joke about him railing addies and coke, he'd be dead. There's no way his heart could survive that. It's not very plausible.
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:00 pm

One by one, the little cracks accumulate...

We'll see how much more chaos that corpulent "Christian Leader" Pompeo can start with his "swagger" before the wheels come off.
 
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:58 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:

These things are relative, no one in DC, or elsewhere, likes Trump particularly; it’s just in comparison to the nutjobs put up in opposition, of either party, makes him the least worse choice.


And he's not a nut job? The pathological lying, the completely non-scenically ramblings, the late night twitter rants?

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Could anyone really see Hilary or Jeb Bush in office?


Either one would be preferable to what we have now.
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LMP737
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:06 am

The fact that they can't give US Senators a straight answer should broadcast to the whole world that there really was no credible immanent threat posed by Soleimani.

Seems to me no one in that administration is on the same page when it comes to this. Hell, at least the Bush Administration was on the same page when it came to thier BS,
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:53 am

LMP737 wrote:
The fact that they can't give US Senators a straight answer should broadcast to the whole world that there really was no credible immanent threat posed by Soleimani.

Seems to me no one in that administration is on the same page when it comes to this. Hell, at least the Bush Administration was on the same page when it came to thier BS,


Of course, it was a professional neocon operation. This is amateur hour, perhaps with the exception of the JCS but they can’t protest too much.
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:13 am

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
What's with Trump's speech. Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but lately when he talks he slurs his words is very slow to talk.
I was taken back, but nobody is saying anything. Either he's overtired, or someone slipping him something or he's had a medical issue.

Maybe, he just a slow reader when he uses the teleprompter.


Yeah, the other day I thought I heard him say tolerided in his Iran speech. But maybe it was just me.
شما می توانید مردم را تحریم کنید ، اما نمی توانید سبک تحریم را اعمال کنید

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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:55 am

LMP737 wrote:
The fact that they can't give US Senators a straight answer should broadcast to the whole world that there really was no credible immanent threat posed by Soleimani.

Seems to me no one in that administration is on the same page when it comes to this. Hell, at least the Bush Administration was on the same page when it came to thier BS,


Are you surprised? This is what happens when you put garbage in the WH.
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:53 am

Jouhou wrote:
BN747 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

He is on medication other than just cholesterol control. Close ups from press cameras have caught his pupils oddly dilated even with bright TV lights in his face. Lots of speculation as to what he is on, but no way to confirm since there’s zero transparency and no official press conferences.


TYT says he's snorting adderall...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwXRa9ywP9s

BN747


Guys, as much as I'd like to joke about him railing addies and coke, he'd be dead. There's no way his heart could survive that. It's not very plausible.


There needs to be a conversation on his demeanor when he is giving this kind of briefing versus when he is on Fox versus when he is campaigning versus when he is golfing every weekend. Maybe he is terrified at the thought of actual leading and giving actual leadership type speeches. He did not have to do anything like that when he was on TV or when he was losing money hand over fist.

Unfortunately, this conversation would involve speculation only. I have read several articles on what medical professionals believe is going on. But, that is simply speculation. I would like to have this conversation but we will never ever know because of how secretive this Republican administration is.
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:05 am

seb146 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
BN747 wrote:

TYT says he's snorting adderall...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwXRa9ywP9s

BN747


Guys, as much as I'd like to joke about him railing addies and coke, he'd be dead. There's no way his heart could survive that. It's not very plausible.


There needs to be a conversation on his demeanor when he is giving this kind of briefing versus when he is on Fox versus when he is campaigning versus when he is golfing every weekend. Maybe he is terrified at the thought of actual leading and giving actual leadership type speeches. He did not have to do anything like that when he was on TV or when he was losing money hand over fist.

Unfortunately, this conversation would involve speculation only. I have read several articles on what medical professionals believe is going on. But, that is simply speculation. I would like to have this conversation but we will never ever know because of how secretive this Republican administration is.


Nope! Not ever...

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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:06 am

sonicruiser wrote:
DLFREEBIRD wrote:
What's with Trump's speech. Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but lately when he talks he slurs his words is very slow to talk.
I was taken back, but nobody is saying anything. Either he's overtired, or someone slipping him something or he's had a medical issue.

Maybe, he just a slow reader when he uses the teleprompter.


Yeah, the other day I thought I heard him say tolerided in his Iran speech. But maybe it was just me.


Oh yeah, he did. He said some other words that aren't real words too.
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WIederling
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:34 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
She needs to read the Constitution (war powers are reserved for Congress) and someone needs to ask if she was outraged when Cotton and 46 other senators sent a letter to Iran regarding the nuclear deal (i.e. meddled in foreign policy)?


Is that actually illegal? Then what about the letter sent to NordStream2 Contractors by US Senators?

Reagan and his party negotiating in the sidelines with Iran over releasing the embassy hostages and the compensation offered to Iran ( known later as the Iran Contra Affair ) while also sabotaging the diplomatic effort of the sitting POTUS ( Carter ) :: That was definitely Illegal.( but never sanctioned. Every one going Hurra for Reagan.
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:27 pm

WIederling wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
She needs to read the Constitution (war powers are reserved for Congress) and someone needs to ask if she was outraged when Cotton and 46 other senators sent a letter to Iran regarding the nuclear deal (i.e. meddled in foreign policy)?


Is that actually illegal? Then what about the letter sent to NordStream2 Contractors by US Senators?

It's not that it's illegal. It's just the double standard that Republicans have made into their modis operandi.

Long held customs dictate that foreign policy falls under the executive branch, with Congress only having a say in terms of ratifying deals/treaties, and for AUMF resolutions. It's why it's the president who hosts international leaders and signs treaties; it's why the Secretary of State is the nation's diplomat instead of the Speaker or the Majority Leader of the Senate. And it's why Congress usually steers clear, except to meet with leaders because they're being hosted.

However, Republicans have shown a double standard. After taking the Senate in 2014, 47 Republican Senators sent Iran a letter telling the country that the deal was in jeopardy because it wasn't going to be approved and if it were, Obama was going to leave office in 2017 so the deal could be terminated regardless. THAT right there is territory that Congress has never set foot in: to actively undermine the president's foreign policy*. And even though the letter was sent by Senators, the House insisted on weighing in as well (which in turn made it into a resolution of disapproval instead of a treaty, which is why the deal was able to proceed).

So it stands to call out Republicans now when the House (controlled by Democrats) attempts to reassert a power reserved to Congress and they become upset because Congress (the House in this case) is meddling in foreign policy (despite the fact that, although national security is an executive duty, an act that could precipitate war with another nation requires Congress to be informed so that they can authorize use of military force). Congress seeking to scale back the AUMF of 2001 is not meddling in foreign policy, but defining the scope of what it allows.

*Some will likely mention Pelosi's visit to Syria in 2007, which Bush disapproved of. However, Pelosi didn't tell Assad that he should wait out until the 2008 election when a Democrat could be elected, and GOP congressional members also visited the country as well before she did.
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WIederling
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:02 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Long held customs dictate that foreign policy falls under the executive branch, with Congress only having a say in terms of ratifying deals/treaties, and for AUMF resolutions. It's why it's the president who hosts international leaders and signs treaties; it's why the Secretary of State is the nation's diplomat instead of the Speaker or the Majority Leader of the Senate. And it's why Congress usually steers clear, except to meet with leaders because they're being hosted.


There is the Logan Act:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act

Going over recent concerns "21th century" it seems to have been leveraged politically by the GOP mostly.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:06 pm

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The modern failure is handing over to the Feds in general, and delegation by Congress to the Executive branch in particular, too lower discretionary power. The USG is too big, possesses too much discretion, strides too much power around the world. This stems from the “progressive era” in sense like mankind senators subject to direct votes (makes them independent actors in DC); the river of money that the income tax produced. It’s all obscene.
 
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:20 pm

WIederling wrote:
There is the Logan Act:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logan_Act

Going over recent concerns "21th century" it seems to have been leveraged politically by the GOP mostly.

That's meant to be for the regular Average Joe with no position of power at the federal level. I can't go to Palestine and Israel to negotiate peace on behalf of the US. I can't go to Iran to sign a treaty on behalf of the government. And I can't go to Cuba and tell Diaz-Canel that Trump will reestablish links.

When it comes to Congress, however, it's murky. The Act is understood to recognize the president as the only figure able to negotiate treaties/deals on behalf of the nation, and for the Senate to ratify/reject them. But say you're the chairman of the foreign relations committee in either chamber of Congress.The act says "without authority of the United States"...are you authorized or not?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
WIederling
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:41 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
That's meant to be for the regular Average Joe with no position of power at the federal level. ...

When it comes to Congress, however, it's murky. The Act is understood to recognize the president as the only figure able to negotiate treaties/deals on behalf of the nation, and for the Senate to ratify/reject them. But say you're the chairman of the foreign relations committee in either chamber of Congress.The act says "without authority of the United States"...are you authorized or not?


from 1967 to 1975 he was Governor of California.
Reagan was elected in 1980 and sitting POTUS from 1981 onwards.

In the intermission he was "private Joe" doing radio talks.

IMU a lot of the persons later to be known as "NeoCon ChickenHawks" came into power positions
under Reagan and stayed in those back room power positions on and off into the Trump "reign".
Changing visibility but continuously working the levers.
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BN747
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:42 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

True.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The modern failure is handing over to the Feds in general, and delegation by Congress to the Executive branch in particular, too lower discretionary power. The USG is too big, possesses too much discretion, strides too much power around the world.

The above statement is dismantled by the first comment.

Power on the lowest level corrupts even that post, like the DMV people, the Post office, nearly every institution we've established and have in operation. Now they're supervisors see themselves as wielding more power and his/her supervisor and it just continues all the way up. The corruption is built in because humans bestowed the 'a little power' subjects that person to given in to the nature of unusual human conduct - corruption.

So shrink the USG and watch the few remaining grow even more powerful and far more corrupt and far less accountability. Those extra bodies cause a built in redundancy which means more eyes are you and you are more that likely not to 'stray' to close to the third rail and end in the IG's office.

The Small Government crowd acts as if human beings are trustworthy and will always do the right thing in positions of power - they will not. So much easier to set up a gang or cabal like entity to commit crime/fraud and to protect it from discovery, like Brian Kemp - in control of his own election while rendering challengers pointless. Small Gov't will assure that pattern spreads like a virus because humans in such positions regardless of size, will commit crimes and are far from being noble and honest. Gov't redundancy works against that.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This stems from the “progressive era” in sense like mankind senators subject to direct votes (makes them independent actors in DC); the river of money that the income tax produced. It’s all obscene.


True - except the 'the Progressive era' you state as the cause is an outright lie...when the entire US Congress was on the take in the 1950s...was it the Progressive era in full gear during the McCarthy era?

Your 'Progressive era' ploy is nothing but a social division from the days of the worse possible corruption thru to Nixon, a gov't scrubbing of sorts during Carter - then a return to Big Game corruption with the arrival of Reagan & Bush. Of course none of that happened according to your recollection of events.



BN747
Last edited by BN747 on Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:11 pm

BN747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

True.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The modern failure is handing over to the Feds in general, and delegation by Congress to the Executive branch in particular, too lower discretionary power. The USG is too big, possesses too much discretion, strides too much power around the world.

The above statement is dismantled by the first comment.

Power on the lowest level corrupts even that post, like the DMV people, the Post office, nearly every institution we've established and have in operation. Now they're supervisors see themselves as wielding more power and his/her supervisor and it just continues all the way up. The corruption is built in because humans bestowed the 'a little power' subjects that person to given in to the nature of unusual human conduct - corruption.

So shrink the USG and watch the few remaining grow even more powerful and far more corrupt and far less accountability. Those extra bodies cause a built in redundancy which means more eyes are you and you are more that likely not to 'stray' to close to the third rail and end in the IG's office.

The Small Government crowd acts as if human beings are trustworthy and will always do the right thing in positions of power - they will not. So much easier to set up a gang or cabal like entity to commit crime/fraud and to protect it from discovery, like Brian Kemp - in control of his own election while rendering challengers pointless. Small Gov't will assure that pattern spreads like a virus because humans in such positions regardless of size, will commit crimes and are far from being noble and honest. Gov't redundancy works against that.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This stems from the “progressive era” in sense like mankind senators subject to direct votes (makes them independent actors in DC); the river of money that the income tax produced. It’s all obscene.


True - except the 'the Progressive era' you state as the cause is an outright lie...when the entire US Congress was on the take in the 1950s...was it the Progressive era in full gear during the McCarthy era?

BN747



I gotta disagree with your assessment of how all humans work. I have a desire to move up the chain of command because I won't be corrupted. I watched someone abuse power in a way that drove my co-worker to suicide. I want to be able to stop that in its tracks if I ever see it again. Not everyone is motivated by the same things.

I would agree the extra bodies that keep each other in check though are exactly how our government and country are supposed to be. Checks and balances all the way down.
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BN747
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:20 pm

Jouhou wrote:
BN747 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

True.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The modern failure is handing over to the Feds in general, and delegation by Congress to the Executive branch in particular, too lower discretionary power. The USG is too big, possesses too much discretion, strides too much power around the world.

The above statement is dismantled by the first comment.

Power on the lowest level corrupts even that post, like the DMV people, the Post office, nearly every institution we've established and have in operation. Now they're supervisors see themselves as wielding more power and his/her supervisor and it just continues all the way up. The corruption is built in because humans bestowed the 'a little power' subjects that person to given in to the nature of unusual human conduct - corruption.

So shrink the USG and watch the few remaining grow even more powerful and far more corrupt and far less accountability. Those extra bodies cause a built in redundancy which means more eyes are you and you are more that likely not to 'stray' to close to the third rail and end in the IG's office.

The Small Government crowd acts as if human beings are trustworthy and will always do the right thing in positions of power - they will not. So much easier to set up a gang or cabal like entity to commit crime/fraud and to protect it from discovery, like Brian Kemp - in control of his own election while rendering challengers pointless. Small Gov't will assure that pattern spreads like a virus because humans in such positions regardless of size, will commit crimes and are far from being noble and honest. Gov't redundancy works against that.

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
This stems from the “progressive era” in sense like mankind senators subject to direct votes (makes them independent actors in DC); the river of money that the income tax produced. It’s all obscene.


True - except the 'the Progressive era' you state as the cause is an outright lie...when the entire US Congress was on the take in the 1950s...was it the Progressive era in full gear during the McCarthy era?

BN747



I gotta disagree with your assessment of how all humans work. I have a desire to move up the chain of command because I won't be corrupted. I watched someone abuse power in a way that drove my co-worker to suicide. I want to be able to stop that in its tracks if I ever see it again. Not everyone is motivated by the same things.


You are an individual and like many others, with well meaning intentions, and you very well maybe one of those few who arrives at the top of your career with your morals, ethics intact...and there are many across gov't - case in point, Maria Yanovavitch, Fiona Hill, Col. Alexander Vindman, etc, at the top of their game and honest to every end. Many lower level employees hold their same values but then as the numbers (in/with real power) shrink in number and you get fewer Vindmans and Yanovavitch and more like Bolton, Don McGahn, Sean Spice, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Kelly Ann Conway, and everyone involved in the Mueller Investigation. They corruption is rife, right now in front of our faces.

Humans are more prone to be corrupted by 'real power'...than NOT!


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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seb146
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:50 pm

WIederling wrote:
einsteinboricua wrote:
She needs to read the Constitution (war powers are reserved for Congress) and someone needs to ask if she was outraged when Cotton and 46 other senators sent a letter to Iran regarding the nuclear deal (i.e. meddled in foreign policy)?


Is that actually illegal? Then what about the letter sent to NordStream2 Contractors by US Senators?

Reagan and his party negotiating in the sidelines with Iran over releasing the embassy hostages and the compensation offered to Iran ( known later as the Iran Contra Affair ) while also sabotaging the diplomatic effort of the sitting POTUS ( Carter ) :: That was definitely Illegal.( but never sanctioned. Every one going Hurra for Reagan.


Reagan did not assume power until January 1981. The Shah was overthrown in 1979 and American hostages were taken in November 1979. Both under Carter. Negotiations continues under Carter while he campaigned for reelection. Reagan had no real power until January 1981. Some from his team may have assisted the Carter administration. But, it was mostly Carter's administration negotiating and working for the hostages release.
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:06 am

seb146 wrote:
Some from his team may have assisted the Carter administration. But, it was mostly Carter's administration negotiating and working for the hostages release.


I am not interested in "Pravda".
Look into "real history". Hint: go over the Iran Contra Affair background information.
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:07 pm

Humans are more prone to be corrupted by 'real power'...than NOT

Which is exactly why we shouldn’t hand out power to governments and keep any powers at the lowest level where it might be more responsive to the public. I can talk to my selectman at the local coffee shop, try that with anyone in DC, aka Versailles on the Potomac. WRT Iran, if I landed in THR tomorrow in a business jet, I’d bet everyone from the ground handler to the desk clerk would treat me very pleasantly and I them. Why doesn’t politics work that way? Too much to gain by appealing to voters’ emotions. When I’ve overflown Iran, ATC couldn’t be more professional, by the way.

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seb146
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:02 pm

WIederling wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Some from his team may have assisted the Carter administration. But, it was mostly Carter's administration negotiating and working for the hostages release.


I am not interested in "Pravda".
Look into "real history". Hint: go over the Iran Contra Affair background information.


Iran-Contra did not happen until like 1985. I do want to clarify something. I do not want to jump to any conclusions: are you in support of drug and arms trafficking?

The Iran hostage crisis started under the Carter administration in November of 1979. Reagan had not been elected at that point. There was not even a Republican National Convention held yet. Carter was dealing with that as well as campaigning as well as many other issues, foreign and domestic. It is not "pravda" but, rather, fact. There was a time from November 4, 1980 and January 20, 1981 where Carter was essentially a lame duck. It was the transition time between the Carter administration and the Reagan administration. Carter's administration was still in power. There were meetings and briefings and the Reagan staff probably did help more with negotiations for the Iran hostages, since they are all war hawks and they were more focused on growing the imperialism of America.

But, we can't have anything like facts sully the good name of Ronald Reagan....
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WIederling
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Re: Sen. Lee (R-Utah) Skewers Officials After Iran Briefing

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:16 pm

seb146 wrote:
But, we can't have anything like facts sully the good name of Ronald Reagan....


A nicely polished but much thinner shell than any Potemkin Village :-)
IMHO Reagan started the run of overly imperialistic/aggressive administrations.
Clinton delayed things slightly, Obama in that respect was an abysmal failure of the more democratic forces in the US.

The back office boys from Reagan's time are heavily entrenched in the political tentacles.
Murphy is an optimist

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