anrec80
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:14 am

Jouhou wrote:

Care to answer my original question? I'm serious, was there some kind of Russia-Iran rift the western media never picked up on that Russian speakers might know of? Is there some kind of Ukraine related situation that is driving Russian actions?




Let me try. Unlike what it might seem, Russia and Iran don’t really have any special or allied relations. There is nothing to do with Ukraine in Russia-Iran relations. They have positive and working relations - this is true. Pretty much the only area they are involved with Iran in is Syria, and Iranian divisions were certainly of a lot of help in Syria on the ground in kicking ISIS into Idlib. Speaking of oil/gas - yes, they are competitors, but I do not think Russia would help sink Iran in order to deprive the latter of their oil/gas market share. Russia also shares EU’s interests in Iran not becoming a nuclear state.

Speaking of media - well, they can always spread something, but smarter politicians don’t necessarily follow those. Initial reaction of media to such events can be any, and I wouldn’t consider it indicative of anything. The reaction of Putin, Trump and even Ukraine’s Zelensky was weighted and calling to get the first results of investigation first. Only Canadian and British PMs gave full freedom to their tongues.

In the rest - Russia’s interests are the same as Europe’s. Primary concern of Russia is stability in the Middle East and terror threat. Terror groups a-la ISIS in the region have plenty of citizens of CIS countries, as well as those of EU countries. Obviously, they are interested in maintaining situation in Iran stable, and the whole Middle East stable and predictable, otherwise Russia and whole Europe will face immense security and terrorism issues. Hence their disapproval of Soleimani’s killing, and careful and weighted reaction to this 737 tragedy. Consequences of Middle East ignition will certainly well outweigh any benefits from a bit greater share of oil markets.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:34 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
The dysfunction, ineptitude, corruption of the Iranian regime is coming out clear here. That's why you can't trust these people with nuclear weapons.


The first part is true but the second is irrelevant. Iran is a 1970 NPT signatory, and the treaty has a provision for states to develop weapons programs if under threat from another state. Since their main regional competitor has been reported to have access to weapons from a non-signing state, Iran could fairly argue exemption under NPT.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24823846
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:37 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Care to answer my original question? I'm serious, was there some kind of Russia-Iran rift the western media never picked up on that Russian speakers might know of? Is there some kind of Ukraine related situation that is driving Russian actions?




Let me try. Unlike what it might seem, Russia and Iran don’t really have any special or allied relations. There is nothing to do with Ukraine in Russia-Iran relations. They have positive and working relations - this is true. Pretty much the only area they are involved with Iran in is Syria, and Iranian divisions were certainly of a lot of help in Syria on the ground in kicking ISIS into Idlib. Speaking of oil/gas - yes, they are competitors, but I do not think Russia would help sink Iran in order to deprive the latter of their oil/gas market share. Russia also shares EU’s interests in Iran not becoming a nuclear state.

Speaking of media - well, they can always spread something, but smarter politicians don’t necessarily follow those. Initial reaction of media to such events can be any, and I wouldn’t consider it indicative of anything. The reaction of Putin, Trump and even Ukraine’s Zelensky was weighted and calling to get the first results of investigation first. Only Canadian and British PMs gave full freedom to their tongues.

In the rest - Russia’s interests are the same as Europe’s. Primary concern of Russia is stability in the Middle East and terror threat. Terror groups a-la ISIS in the region have plenty of citizens of CIS countries, as well as those of EU countries. Obviously, they are interested in maintaining situation in Iran stable, and the whole Middle East stable and predictable, otherwise Russia and whole Europe will face immense security and terrorism issues. Hence their disapproval of Soleimani’s killing, and careful and weighted reaction to this 737 tragedy. Consequences of Middle East ignition will certainly well outweigh any benefits from a bit greater share of oil markets.


I would agree that combating jihadist terrorists is one thing I can trust Russian, US, and European interest to reliably align on. However, the islamic extremists attacking us in our home countries are almost always sunni, I wasn't sure if this was really a concern for Russia in Iran. Shiite terrorism seems to trend towards militias active in the ME region, not random radicals attacking soft civilian targets with suicide bombs etc in distant countries.
 
anrec80
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:18 am

Jouhou wrote:
I would agree that combating jihadist terrorists is one thing I can trust Russian, US, and European interest to reliably align on. However, the islamic extremists attacking us in our home countries are almost always sunni, I wasn't sure if this was really a concern for Russia in Iran. Shiite terrorism seems to trend towards militias active in the ME region, not random radicals attacking soft civilian targets with suicide bombs etc in distant countries.


I don’t think it’s right to associate terrorism with any ethnic group or a religious confession. In the ranks of ISIS, there were many from North-Caucasian ethnic groups and even of Slavic origin. Western Europeans also have their place (remember Jihadi John?). I don’t also see any varieties in terrorism - they all create similar types of threats for nations in all regions.
 
anrec80
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:21 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
The dysfunction, ineptitude, corruption of the Iranian regime is coming out clear here. That's why you can't trust these people with nuclear weapons.


Well, similar things can happen virtually anywhere, and rarely do happen. Ukraine also has experience in hitting a Russian airliner in 2001. Then there is Iranian A300. That said however - I agree that Iran has a lot of work to do on their military, air defenses, communication, discipline, etc.
 
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:39 am

anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I would agree that combating jihadist terrorists is one thing I can trust Russian, US, and European interest to reliably align on. However, the islamic extremists attacking us in our home countries are almost always sunni, I wasn't sure if this was really a concern for Russia in Iran. Shiite terrorism seems to trend towards militias active in the ME region, not random radicals attacking soft civilian targets with suicide bombs etc in distant countries.


I don’t think it’s right to associate terrorism with any ethnic group or a religious confession. In the ranks of ISIS, there were many from North-Caucasian ethnic groups and even of Slavic origin. Western Europeans also have their place (remember Jihadi John?). I don’t also see any varieties in terrorism - they all create similar types of threats for nations in all regions.



Those are all Sunni militants though. There's a very specific variety of Sunni Islamic fundamentalism that enables this, obviously most Sunnis do not practice this variety of the religion. Shiite militias do threaten the stability of the region, but really haven't posed the same kind of threat to civilians in distant countries.

I literally can't think of a single terrorist incident in the US in my lifetime committed by a Shiite extremist. I can think of Christian extremist attacks though.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:43 am

Jouhou wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
I would agree that combating jihadist terrorists is one thing I can trust Russian, US, and European interest to reliably align on. However, the islamic extremists attacking us in our home countries are almost always sunni, I wasn't sure if this was really a concern for Russia in Iran. Shiite terrorism seems to trend towards militias active in the ME region, not random radicals attacking soft civilian targets with suicide bombs etc in distant countries.


I don’t think it’s right to associate terrorism with any ethnic group or a religious confession. In the ranks of ISIS, there were many from North-Caucasian ethnic groups and even of Slavic origin. Western Europeans also have their place (remember Jihadi John?). I don’t also see any varieties in terrorism - they all create similar types of threats for nations in all regions.



Those are all Sunni militants though. There's a very specific variety of Sunni Islamic fundamentalism that enables this, obviously most Sunnis do not practice this variety of the religion. Shiite militias do threaten the stability of the region, but really haven't posed the same kind of threat to civilians in distant countries.

I literally can't think of a single terrorist incident in the US in my lifetime committed by a Shiite extremist. I can think of Christian extremist attacks though.


And the kicker is one of our ‘allies’ is the primary funding source for Sunni fundie schools and groups, yet POTUS 43, 44, and 45 had nothing to say about it. Curious topic to keep mum on.
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:53 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
anrec80 wrote:

I don’t think it’s right to associate terrorism with any ethnic group or a religious confession. In the ranks of ISIS, there were many from North-Caucasian ethnic groups and even of Slavic origin. Western Europeans also have their place (remember Jihadi John?). I don’t also see any varieties in terrorism - they all create similar types of threats for nations in all regions.



Those are all Sunni militants though. There's a very specific variety of Sunni Islamic fundamentalism that enables this, obviously most Sunnis do not practice this variety of the religion. Shiite militias do threaten the stability of the region, but really haven't posed the same kind of threat to civilians in distant countries.

I literally can't think of a single terrorist incident in the US in my lifetime committed by a Shiite extremist. I can think of Christian extremist attacks though.


And the kicker is one of our ‘allies’ is the primary funding source for Sunni fundie schools and groups, yet POTUS 43, 44, and 45 had nothing to say about it. Curious topic to keep mum on.



I have always felt that with Saudi funding of Sunni fundamentalism and Iran just simply hating our very existence the U.S. should have taken the position of aligning with neither long ago. Neither aligns with our interests culturally, our involvement there just looks like greed for oil. And maybe it was, but we're pumping a plethora out of Texas now, so what gives? Why do we still back the Saudis as if they are somehow aligned with us?
 
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:00 am

Jouhou wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:


Those are all Sunni militants though. There's a very specific variety of Sunni Islamic fundamentalism that enables this, obviously most Sunnis do not practice this variety of the religion. Shiite militias do threaten the stability of the region, but really haven't posed the same kind of threat to civilians in distant countries.

I literally can't think of a single terrorist incident in the US in my lifetime committed by a Shiite extremist. I can think of Christian extremist attacks though.


And the kicker is one of our ‘allies’ is the primary funding source for Sunni fundie schools and groups, yet POTUS 43, 44, and 45 had nothing to say about it. Curious topic to keep mum on.



I have always felt that with Saudi funding of Sunni fundamentalism and Iran just simply hating our very existence the U.S. should have taken the position of aligning with neither long ago. Neither aligns with our interests culturally, our involvement there just looks like greed for oil. And maybe it was, but we're pumping a plethora out of Texas now, so what gives? Why do we still back the Saudis as if they are somehow aligned with us?


No idea - you’ve got me. But according to Pompeo, it’s due to ‘critical economic interests’ - probably referring to stable oil pricing globally. That and they are purchasing nuclear tech and military hardware up the wazoo. To me that just sounds like choosing $$ over values and basic morality. KSA has evacuated their citizens from the US while awaiting trial for US crimes (we actually tolerate that??), has presided over a decade-long humanitarian crisis in Yemen in their pissing match with Iran, and still doesn’t allow any US inquiry into 9/11 links - victims’ families still can’t even bring suit. It truly boggles the mind, and you’re right - it’s wrong to choose sides on this one.
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1989worstyear
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:13 am

Jouhou wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Americans who have not politically dug trenches on Trump's side understand that Trump's decisions have been destabilizing for the region and are more likely to damage US strategic interests than help them. On the other hand it's been such a chaos-inducing action that it's still possible for it to shake out to the US's benefit, but the situation created is too complex for anyone to predict.

Iran still should have at least closed the airspace from civilian use until enough time had passed for nerves to calm.


Without the assassination of Soleimani and the Iraqi military leaders near the Baghdad airport, we would not be discussing the downing of this jetliner. Iran did not just decide one day to fire missiles. They were firing missiles in retaliation for the assassination of their number two leader. Iran already stated a retaliatory strike would happen. We all knew it was coming.

Yes, closing air space could have prevented this. But so could not firing a missile at an Iranian leader.


You live in the US too, you know as well as I do there's nothing we can do to prevent Trump being Trump either. Our system never built in a legal method of over-riding a president gone completely rogue and making decisions that aren't just endangering people in a far away region, but are threatening US interests as well. We can only hope Congress does something to control him.


Don't forget some of the Bureaucrats surrounding him pushing these decisions (Pompie the Pig).
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:15 am

1989worstyear wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
seb146 wrote:

Without the assassination of Soleimani and the Iraqi military leaders near the Baghdad airport, we would not be discussing the downing of this jetliner. Iran did not just decide one day to fire missiles. They were firing missiles in retaliation for the assassination of their number two leader. Iran already stated a retaliatory strike would happen. We all knew it was coming.

Yes, closing air space could have prevented this. But so could not firing a missile at an Iranian leader.


You live in the US too, you know as well as I do there's nothing we can do to prevent Trump being Trump either. Our system never built in a legal method of over-riding a president gone completely rogue and making decisions that aren't just endangering people in a far away region, but are threatening US interests as well. We can only hope Congress does something to control him.


Don't forget some of the Bureaucrats surrounding him pushing these decisions (Pompie the Pig).


The thing is he's simply surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fired anyone with a shred of decency the moment they've opposed him.
 
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:35 am

Jouhou wrote:
The thing is he's simply surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fired anyone with a shred of decency the moment they've opposed him.


Are you talking about the Supreme Leader ... of Iran... Oh wait... in Iran firing is a euphemism for State termination.
We cannot allow Iran to have Nuclear Weapons.
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:37 am

US relations with Saudi go back to a broken promise by FDR after the Yalta conference. He promised that no decision on Palestine without Arab consultation. Truman broke it and backed partition creating Israel. Iran has been a British-Russian interest going back to Edward VI in the late 16th century. I dare say that’s before oil.

GF
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:37 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
The thing is he's simply surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fired anyone with a shred of decency the moment they've opposed him.


Are you talking about the Supreme Leader ... of Iran... Oh wait... in Iran firing is a euphemism for State termination.
We cannot allow Iran to have Nuclear Weapons.


They are a signatory of NPT and due to KSA’s nuclear arrangements with Pakistan (a non-NPT state) have an argument under the Article X loophole to defend themselves.
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:43 am

Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
The thing is he's simply surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fired anyone with a shred of decency the moment they've opposed him.


Are you talking about the Supreme Leader ... of Iran... Oh wait... in Iran firing is a euphemism for State termination.
We cannot allow Iran to have Nuclear Weapons.


They are a signatory of NPT and due to KSA’s nuclear arrangements with Pakistan (a non-NPT state) have an argument under the Article X loophole to defend themselves.


Fine self-defense argument, do you trust them with nukes, especially after this past week and their on-going wars across the ME-Syria, Yemen, Hezbollah in Lebanon? I’d trust NOK better.

GF
 
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:48 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:

Are you talking about the Supreme Leader ... of Iran... Oh wait... in Iran firing is a euphemism for State termination.
We cannot allow Iran to have Nuclear Weapons.


They are a signatory of NPT and due to KSA’s nuclear arrangements with Pakistan (a non-NPT state) have an argument under the Article X loophole to defend themselves.


Fine self-defense argument, do you trust them with nukes, especially after this past week and their on-going wars across the ME-Syria, Yemen, Hezbollah in Lebanon? I’d trust NOK better.

GF


Yemen is proxy pissing match nonsense with KSA (dragging millions of civilians through your proxy war, really??) and factions of Syrians and Lebanese have asked for Iran’s assistance. I don’t trust KSA to be a responsible regional hegemon, yet we don’t hear a peep from Pompeo about it now and heard nothing from the 44 administration about their nuclear ties with Pakistan. This isn’t about who has the right values - Iran is simply worth less $$.

It would make more sense at this point for the UNSC to just decide nobody in that region has sovereignty anymore and a carefully-studied panel should divvy things up. That would make the US, China and Russia quite happy as long as the winnings were even.

Can you think of any other country that gets away with whisking their citizens out of the US before trials for US crimes?
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BN747
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:27 am

dmg626 wrote:
treetreeseven wrote:
~175 people died as a knock-on effect of Trump's early re-election campaigning. Case closed.


They died because of an itchy trigger finger on the missile battery crew. Other planes flew that night, other missile batteries were in operation, the blame lies squarely on them.


No it doesn't! The country is in a jittery state...because of trump!

And what do panicky countries do in a panicky state? I dunno if it's true, but I heard stepped up surveillance on Iranian-Americans even talk of detainment camps (re:Japanese Americans WWII). resulty

If American declare any kind of emergency foreign-attack, when the 1st 24 hours..how many jittery cops, soldiers, militia nuts, armed citizens would end up involved in shootings of innocents?

At the LAX - El Al incident, first hand accounts of the cops aiming shooting at nearly anything that moved! A country like Iran on edge opens the door for anything.


If only we had a president who understands decorum, formalities, protocols, AMERICAN history, the Constitution and a few laws..none of this would have gone down because the Iran Nuclear Treaty would still be intact and Iran not in a Jittery state of defensive posture.

So thanks to the Electoral College we are stuck with an complete griftting criminal moron leading American, so forgive us for 'the interruption of better leadership',
we are a work in progress at the moment...

BN747
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:02 am

Sad for the deaths of the innocents on PS 752.

But it is midnight for the horrible theocratic mullahs and ayatollahs who have ruined Iran for 40 years and counting.

They lost their bete noir thug Soleimani in a humiliating way. His pinkie ring was the identifier!

They were impotent in their response to the assassination and looked extremely weak by shooting blanks. Chickenshit about confronting Donald because they didn’t want to get pounded more.

Their economy sucks and their own people have been protesting for months. And now, for the first time in my memory post 1979, the protests against the regime is CONTINUING AND ENLARGING despite the death of Soleimani and the loss of the plane. In other words, the Iranian mullahs have lost the narrative and finally the people see right through their bullshit propaganda.

So Donald has won again and again. Trump today, Trump tomorrow, Trump forever. And of course Trump will win re-election.

The others? Reduced to saying it’s Trumps fault that Iran shot down an airliner or the Soleimani was a scholar or hero or the country is mourning him.

Nonsense, he was a murderous thug who got cute and arrogant and was was appropriately made room temperature.
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texdravid
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:02 am

Sad for the deaths of the innocents on PS 752.

But it is midnight for the horrible theocratic mullahs and ayatollahs who have ruined Iran for 40 years and counting.

They lost their bete noir thug Soleimani in a humiliating way. His pinkie ring was the identifier!

They were impotent in their response to the assassination and looked extremely weak by shooting blanks. Chickenshit about confronting Donald because they didn’t want to get pounded more.

Their economy sucks and their own people have been protesting for months. And now, for the first time in my memory post 1979, the protests against the regime is CONTINUING AND ENLARGING despite the death of Soleimani and the loss of the plane. In other words, the Iranian mullahs have lost the narrative and finally the people see right through their bullshit propaganda.

So Donald has won again and again. Trump today, Trump tomorrow, Trump forever. And of course Trump will win re-election.

The others? Reduced to saying it’s Trumps fault that Iran shot down an airliner or the Soleimani was a scholar or hero or the country is mourning him.

Nonsense, he was a murderous thug who got cute and arrogant and was was appropriately made room temperature.
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texdravid
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:13 am

BN747 wrote:
dmg626 wrote:
treetreeseven wrote:
~175 people died as a knock-on effect of Trump's early re-election campaigning. Case closed.


They died because of an itchy trigger finger on the missile battery crew. Other planes flew that night, other missile batteries were in operation, the blame lies squarely on them.


No it doesn't! The country is in a jittery state...because of trump!

And what do panicky countries do in a panicky state? I dunno if it's true, but I heard stepped up surveillance on Iranian-Americans even talk of detainment camps (re:Japanese Americans WWII). resulty

If American declare any kind of emergency foreign-attack, when the 1st 24 hours..how many jittery cops, soldiers, militia nuts, armed citizens would end up involved in shootings of innocents?

At the LAX - El Al incident, first hand accounts of the cops aiming shooting at nearly anything that moved! A country like Iran on edge opens the door for anything.


If only we had a president who understands decorum, formalities, protocols, AMERICAN history, the Constitution and a few laws..none of this would have gone down because the Iran Nuclear Treaty would still be intact and Iran not in a Jittery state of defensive posture.

So thanks to the Electoral College we are stuck with an complete griftting criminal moron leading American, so forgive us for 'the interruption of better leadership',
we are a work in progress at the moment...

BN747


Cmon sir, you can do better than this. Trump won this whole saga lock stock and barrel. Your favoring and romanticizing the Obozo- John F. Kerry-Heinz nuclear treaty is laughable.

Trump emasculated Iran when he tore up the deal and the Mullahs are hurting and I look forward to more humiliation for their theocracy.

And oh, that’s a real theocracy as they are gay haters, misogynists and have Middle Ages idiocy. Unlike you hollywood types who portray some regular middle income couple from Dallas who go to a Baptist church as theocrats. How “courageous” of Patricia Arquette. I dare Robert De Niro, that vile punk, to go to Tehran and call them backward theocrats. Cmon Hollywood betters, go for it.
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seb146
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:37 am

Jouhou wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

You live in the US too, you know as well as I do there's nothing we can do to prevent Trump being Trump either. Our system never built in a legal method of over-riding a president gone completely rogue and making decisions that aren't just endangering people in a far away region, but are threatening US interests as well. We can only hope Congress does something to control him.


Don't forget some of the Bureaucrats surrounding him pushing these decisions (Pompie the Pig).


The thing is he's simply surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fired anyone with a shred of decency the moment they've opposed him.


We actually can do something. Call your Representative. Call your Senator. Three phone calls. Once call to your House member, two to your Senators. Tell them to allow a fair and free testimony. Russia and Republicans have blocked calls to Congress but We The People WILL NOT BE SILENCED!!!
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:53 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
The thing is he's simply surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fired anyone with a shred of decency the moment they've opposed him.


Are you talking about the Supreme Leader ... of Iran... Oh wait... in Iran firing is a euphemism for State termination.
We cannot allow Iran to have Nuclear Weapons.


Do you really think they have the capacity to build both a nuclear warhead AND a functional delivery system that can safely exit their own territory and hit a target? It took them 2 SAMs to hit a large subsonic civilian passenger aircraft they had misidentified as a cruise missile. There's sort of a huge difference between the two. They'd end up detonating a nuke in their own country.

It's sort of the same with North Korea, they haven't had a high success rate while testing ballistic missiles. I don't get why we'd feel threatened. They aren't even close.
 
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:08 am

My thoughts on target identification that several people asked about:

I am not familiar with the Tor and especially not knowing what model they had, but I know a thing of two about the Pantsir and the way that works (even the first version) is when you get target aquisition the IR camera points and zooms on the operator's monitor (in B&W, so you get a pretty good picture) for additional identification purposes. You see a good silhoute of the target. Again I don't know how this works on the Tor, but is it possible that from the angle they were looking at the target it didn't look like an aeroplane and that gave them additional misconspetions in their rushed decision making process?
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drajoshi
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:08 am

Sad reality is innocent lives are always at risk when war/war like situations prevail. One can always argue who caused the situation, US or Iran. But listening to the IRGC chief’s speech, I haven’t seen a western leader own up to a mess like he did. Morally for me Iran will always have an upper hand compared to US until/unless they award the IRGC for bravery and valour (like Reagan honoured the USS Vincens crew after they shot down Iran Air 655).
 
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:09 am

seb146 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

Don't forget some of the Bureaucrats surrounding him pushing these decisions (Pompie the Pig).


The thing is he's simply surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fired anyone with a shred of decency the moment they've opposed him.


We actually can do something. Call your Representative. Call your Senator. Three phone calls. Once call to your House member, two to your Senators. Tell them to allow a fair and free testimony. Russia and Republicans have blocked calls to Congress but We The People WILL NOT BE SILENCED!!!


All my states reps and sens are (D)s, no (R)s here to ignore me.

texdravid wrote:
Sad for the deaths of the innocents on PS 752.

But it is midnight for the horrible theocratic mullahs and ayatollahs who have ruined Iran for 40 years and counting.

They lost their bete noir thug Soleimani in a humiliating way. His pinkie ring was the identifier!

They were impotent in their response to the assassination and looked extremely weak by shooting blanks. Chickenshit about confronting Donald because they didn’t want to get pounded more.

Their economy sucks and their own people have been protesting for months. And now, for the first time in my memory post 1979, the protests against the regime is CONTINUING AND ENLARGING despite the death of Soleimani and the loss of the plane. In other words, the Iranian mullahs have lost the narrative and finally the people see right through their bullshit propaganda.

So Donald has won again and again. Trump today, Trump tomorrow, Trump forever. And of course Trump will win re-election.

The others? Reduced to saying it’s Trumps fault that Iran shot down an airliner or the Soleimani was a scholar or hero or the country is mourning him.

Nonsense, he was a murderous thug who got cute and arrogant and was was appropriately made room temperature.


That was unhinged. Are you worshipping Trump as if he's your god???!

Just an FYI for the old people here, I was born in 1984, I don't remember the days of the first ayatollah when historically Iran funded groups committed tons of terrorist atrocities. My lifetime was dominated by watching Sunnis murder Americans for no reason. I feel like your hatred is out of date and misdirected. As we were discussing, so how about them Saudis?
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10281
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:27 am

Jouhou wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

The thing is he's simply surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fired anyone with a shred of decency the moment they've opposed him.


We actually can do something. Call your Representative. Call your Senator. Three phone calls. Once call to your House member, two to your Senators. Tell them to allow a fair and free testimony. Russia and Republicans have blocked calls to Congress but We The People WILL NOT BE SILENCED!!!


All my states reps and sens are (D)s, no (R)s here to ignore me.

texdravid wrote:
Sad for the deaths of the innocents on PS 752.

But it is midnight for the horrible theocratic mullahs and ayatollahs who have ruined Iran for 40 years and counting.

They lost their bete noir thug Soleimani in a humiliating way. His pinkie ring was the identifier!

They were impotent in their response to the assassination and looked extremely weak by shooting blanks. Chickenshit about confronting Donald because they didn’t want to get pounded more.

Their economy sucks and their own people have been protesting for months. And now, for the first time in my memory post 1979, the protests against the regime is CONTINUING AND ENLARGING despite the death of Soleimani and the loss of the plane. In other words, the Iranian mullahs have lost the narrative and finally the people see right through their bullshit propaganda.

So Donald has won again and again. Trump today, Trump tomorrow, Trump forever. And of course Trump will win re-election.

The others? Reduced to saying it’s Trumps fault that Iran shot down an airliner or the Soleimani was a scholar or hero or the country is mourning him.

Nonsense, he was a murderous thug who got cute and arrogant and was was appropriately made room temperature.


That was unhinged. Are you worshipping Trump as if he's your god???!

Just an FYI for the old people here, I was born in 1984, I don't remember the days of the first ayatollah when historically Iran funded groups committed tons of terrorist atrocities. My lifetime was dominated by watching Sunnis murder Americans for no reason. I feel like your hatred is out of date and misdirected. As we were discussing, so how about them Saudis?


Don’t expect much mileage on the topic of KSA. I have been on that tack here for years, and aside from ‘it would be best to leave the region’ or ‘sometimes you have to have unpleasant friends’ nobody really wants to address the elephant in the room. 9/11 is a distant memory and with cover from DC, even last year’s news of Saudi criminal US residents getting whisked out of country before trial didn’t catch on, especially with conservatives.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
texdravid
Posts: 1823
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 3:21 pm

Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:32 am

Jouhou wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

The thing is he's simply surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fired anyone with a shred of decency the moment they've opposed him.


We actually can do something. Call your Representative. Call your Senator. Three phone calls. Once call to your House member, two to your Senators. Tell them to allow a fair and free testimony. Russia and Republicans have blocked calls to Congress but We The People WILL NOT BE SILENCED!!!


All my states reps and sens are (D)s, no (R)s here to ignore me.

texdravid wrote:
Sad for the deaths of the innocents on PS 752.

But it is midnight for the horrible theocratic mullahs and ayatollahs who have ruined Iran for 40 years and counting.

They lost their bete noir thug Soleimani in a humiliating way. His pinkie ring was the identifier!

They were impotent in their response to the assassination and looked extremely weak by shooting blanks. Chickenshit about confronting Donald because they didn’t want to get pounded more.

Their economy sucks and their own people have been protesting for months. And now, for the first time in my memory post 1979, the protests against the regime is CONTINUING AND ENLARGING despite the death of Soleimani and the loss of the plane. In other words, the Iranian mullahs have lost the narrative and finally the people see right through their bullshit propaganda.

So Donald has won again and again. Trump today, Trump tomorrow, Trump forever. And of course Trump will win re-election.

The others? Reduced to saying it’s Trumps fault that Iran shot down an airliner or the Soleimani was a scholar or hero or the country is mourning him.

Nonsense, he was a murderous thug who got cute and arrogant and was was appropriately made room temperature.


That was unhinged. Are you worshipping Trump as if he's your god???!

Just an FYI for the old people here, I was born in 1984, I don't remember the days of the first ayatollah when historically Iran funded groups committed tons of terrorist atrocities. My lifetime was dominated by watching Sunnis murder Americans for no reason. I feel like your hatred is out of date and misdirected. As we were discussing, so how about them Saudis?


You being surprised by my post is the surprise here. I am to the right of Ted Cruz on these boards and millions of REGULAR AMERICANS feel the same way that I do. Far from unhinged, it is downright normal to despise the Iranian theocrats. Just because you weren’t born until 1984 does in no way excuse your lack of knowledge in this area. Iran post 1979 has always been an outlaw, a mischief maker, who used its claws like the revolutionary guard and other groups to transmit its terror far from Iranian borders.

With regards to Saudi terrorism, I have been on record that I disavow both Republican and Democrat Butt kissing of the Wahhabi regime. 9/11 is all on the Saudis.

Hopefully we are finally getting over that mysterious partnership as Trump has ended the military airman courses and had those students removed from America after that cowardly attack this year by a Saudi pilot student.

I am sick of the ME and Persia and their ancient feuds and shedding US blood there for ungrateful, corrupt and theocratic and bloodthirsty villains who run their governments.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
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Jouhou
Topic Author
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:46 am

texdravid wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
seb146 wrote:

We actually can do something. Call your Representative. Call your Senator. Three phone calls. Once call to your House member, two to your Senators. Tell them to allow a fair and free testimony. Russia and Republicans have blocked calls to Congress but We The People WILL NOT BE SILENCED!!!


All my states reps and sens are (D)s, no (R)s here to ignore me.

texdravid wrote:
Sad for the deaths of the innocents on PS 752.

But it is midnight for the horrible theocratic mullahs and ayatollahs who have ruined Iran for 40 years and counting.

They lost their bete noir thug Soleimani in a humiliating way. His pinkie ring was the identifier!

They were impotent in their response to the assassination and looked extremely weak by shooting blanks. Chickenshit about confronting Donald because they didn’t want to get pounded more.

Their economy sucks and their own people have been protesting for months. And now, for the first time in my memory post 1979, the protests against the regime is CONTINUING AND ENLARGING despite the death of Soleimani and the loss of the plane. In other words, the Iranian mullahs have lost the narrative and finally the people see right through their bullshit propaganda.

So Donald has won again and again. Trump today, Trump tomorrow, Trump forever. And of course Trump will win re-election.

The others? Reduced to saying it’s Trumps fault that Iran shot down an airliner or the Soleimani was a scholar or hero or the country is mourning him.

Nonsense, he was a murderous thug who got cute and arrogant and was was appropriately made room temperature.


That was unhinged. Are you worshipping Trump as if he's your god???!

Just an FYI for the old people here, I was born in 1984, I don't remember the days of the first ayatollah when historically Iran funded groups committed tons of terrorist atrocities. My lifetime was dominated by watching Sunnis murder Americans for no reason. I feel like your hatred is out of date and misdirected. As we were discussing, so how about them Saudis?


You being surprised by my post is the surprise here. I am to the right of Ted Cruz on these boards and millions of REGULAR AMERICANS feel the same way that I do. Far from unhinged, it is downright normal to despise the Iranian theocrats. Just because you weren’t born until 1984 does in no way excuse your lack of knowledge in this area. Iran post 1979 has always been an outlaw, a mischief maker, who used its claws like the revolutionary guard and other groups to transmit its terror far from Iranian borders.

With regards to Saudi terrorism, I have been on record that I disavow both Republican and Democrat Butt kissing of the Wahhabi regime. 9/11 is all on the Saudis.

Hopefully we are finally getting over that mysterious partnership as Trump has ended the military airman courses and had those students removed from America after that cowardly attack this year by a Saudi pilot student.

I am sick of the ME and Persia and their ancient feuds and shedding US blood there for ungrateful, corrupt and theocratic and bloodthirsty villains who run their governments.


So can we agree we shouldn't be siding with either then? Iran is our enemy, but it's up to their people what they want to do about it if they don't like their theocracy. Most of the dissidents just simply left. It's not up to us to do whatever it is we are supposedly doing to force their hand.

And my point is yeah, Iran does threaten US interests but it's nothing compared to the problems the Saudis have caused us. Why do we focus on one but not the other?
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10281
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:48 am

texdravid wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
seb146 wrote:

We actually can do something. Call your Representative. Call your Senator. Three phone calls. Once call to your House member, two to your Senators. Tell them to allow a fair and free testimony. Russia and Republicans have blocked calls to Congress but We The People WILL NOT BE SILENCED!!!


All my states reps and sens are (D)s, no (R)s here to ignore me.

texdravid wrote:
Sad for the deaths of the innocents on PS 752.

But it is midnight for the horrible theocratic mullahs and ayatollahs who have ruined Iran for 40 years and counting.

They lost their bete noir thug Soleimani in a humiliating way. His pinkie ring was the identifier!

They were impotent in their response to the assassination and looked extremely weak by shooting blanks. Chickenshit about confronting Donald because they didn’t want to get pounded more.

Their economy sucks and their own people have been protesting for months. And now, for the first time in my memory post 1979, the protests against the regime is CONTINUING AND ENLARGING despite the death of Soleimani and the loss of the plane. In other words, the Iranian mullahs have lost the narrative and finally the people see right through their bullshit propaganda.

So Donald has won again and again. Trump today, Trump tomorrow, Trump forever. And of course Trump will win re-election.

The others? Reduced to saying it’s Trumps fault that Iran shot down an airliner or the Soleimani was a scholar or hero or the country is mourning him.

Nonsense, he was a murderous thug who got cute and arrogant and was was appropriately made room temperature.


That was unhinged. Are you worshipping Trump as if he's your god???!

Just an FYI for the old people here, I was born in 1984, I don't remember the days of the first ayatollah when historically Iran funded groups committed tons of terrorist atrocities. My lifetime was dominated by watching Sunnis murder Americans for no reason. I feel like your hatred is out of date and misdirected. As we were discussing, so how about them Saudis?


You being surprised by my post is the surprise here. I am to the right of Ted Cruz on these boards and millions of REGULAR AMERICANS feel the same way that I do. Far from unhinged, it is downright normal to despise the Iranian theocrats. Just because you weren’t born until 1984 does in no way excuse your lack of knowledge in this area. Iran post 1979 has always been an outlaw, a mischief maker, who used its claws like the revolutionary guard and other groups to transmit its terror far from Iranian borders.

With regards to Saudi terrorism, I have been on record that I disavow both Republican and Democrat Butt kissing of the Wahhabi regime. 9/11 is all on the Saudis.

Hopefully we are finally getting over that mysterious partnership as Trump has ended the military airman courses and had those students removed from America after that cowardly attack this year by a Saudi pilot student.

I am sick of the ME and Persia and their ancient feuds and shedding US blood there for ungrateful, corrupt and theocratic and bloodthirsty villains who run their governments.


That’s a start but I fear your trust is misplaced - the WH acted only after there was a newsworthy incident on a US base. Pompeo has been very quiet about the stories from early last year, even though Senator Wyden and others have sought answers:

httpsruns://www.thedailybeast.com/five- ... fore-trial

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/29/71816498 ... ice-system

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-47377888

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/world/ ... every-move

Weirdness.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
LittleSprocket
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:56 am

Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
My take:

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Several other planes left that morning (10 I think), several of them late. Why did this particular plane get shot down, with zero Americans and mostly Iranians on board? Coincidence? Just the unlucky one?


Being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Why did Iran do a sudden U-turn to end hostilities, (oh OK, lets call it even then and stop fighting), does that happen often when war has just started, I wonder?


Iran wasn't the one being aggressive, that was the US, which started with giving up the perfectly good and working Iran-deal. They haven't anything to gain by starting a real shooting war. If that were to start, it would have left Iran in ruins. But they had to react, so attacking US military installations in Iraq, with a warning so to minimize deaths, was a perfectly reasonable response, aimed at not escalating things.

bristolflyer1 wrote:
Why did Iran do a sudden U-turn on being adamant that the plane wasn’t hit by one of their missiles? They must surely have known that with the international community inspecting the plane, a missile hit would quickly be uncovered. (I think their lack of preservation of the scene was due to incompetence, plus the pieces of the plane were already being reassembled in an indoor hangar).


The first reaction is not a good one to go by. Most probably the people in charge didn't know what have happened, didn't have the facts yet, so they denied it. Same thing with the MH17, the first reaction was; yeah we have shot down a Ukrainian military transport, after that they realized what has happened and the deny started and blaming of Ukraine.
Iran came to their senses and indeed they knew they couldnot hide it for long, so better to come out with it and give the proper context.

bristolflyer1 wrote:
What did Iran mean when they said they were the victim of ‘psychological warfare’?


As I understand it, I haven't checked it myself, a US politician said on twitter that US bombers were on their way to Teheran. Given the US and certainly the person in charge at the moment, a response could have been an attack on Teheran. So my interpretation is that they mean this by that.


Lmfao...the Americans were the ones being aggressive because we pulled out of a faulty deal? That isn’t aggression, that is watching out for our own self interests. Do you want to know what is aggression? Try targeting civilian ships in the strait of Hormuz, bombing Saudi Oil Fields, downing foreign own drones in international airspace, funding proxy terrorist organizations that are currently fighting in Syria, Yemen and the West Bank as we speak...never mind them storming our embassy in Iraq.

This is why you folks are a joke and will always be thought of as a joke, you and people like you are founded in this phony notion that by responding to an attack or taking out a known terrorist (thank you Obama for designating Salami or whatever his name used to be as one) is somehow an escalation.

Iran has been at war with the U.S since they stormed our Embassy in Tehran back in 1979. I suggest you folks take a history lesson.

Oh, and don’t bother responding. I have more respect for terrorists that go out and do something because of what they believe than for those that cry daily on a forum as if it makes you relevant.
 
LittleSprocket
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2016 2:56 am

Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:32 am

Jouhou wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

The thing is he's simply surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fired anyone with a shred of decency the moment they've opposed him.


We actually can do something. Call your Representative. Call your Senator. Three phone calls. Once call to your House member, two to your Senators. Tell them to allow a fair and free testimony. Russia and Republicans have blocked calls to Congress but We The People WILL NOT BE SILENCED!!!


All my states reps and sens are (D)s, no (R)s here to ignore me.

texdravid wrote:
Sad for the deaths of the innocents on PS 752.

But it is midnight for the horrible theocratic mullahs and ayatollahs who have ruined Iran for 40 years and counting.

They lost their bete noir thug Soleimani in a humiliating way. His pinkie ring was the identifier!

They were impotent in their response to the assassination and looked extremely weak by shooting blanks. Chickenshit about confronting Donald because they didn’t want to get pounded more.

Their economy sucks and their own people have been protesting for months. And now, for the first time in my memory post 1979, the protests against the regime is CONTINUING AND ENLARGING despite the death of Soleimani and the loss of the plane. In other words, the Iranian mullahs have lost the narrative and finally the people see right through their bullshit propaganda.

So Donald has won again and again. Trump today, Trump tomorrow, Trump forever. And of course Trump will win re-election.

The others? Reduced to saying it’s Trumps fault that Iran shot down an airliner or the Soleimani was a scholar or hero or the country is mourning him.

Nonsense, he was a murderous thug who got cute and arrogant and was was appropriately made room temperature.


That was unhinged. Are you worshipping Trump as if he's your god???!

Just an FYI for the old people here, I was born in 1984, I don't remember the days of the first ayatollah when historically Iran funded groups committed tons of terrorist atrocities. My lifetime was dominated by watching Sunnis murder Americans for no reason. I feel like your hatred is out of date and misdirected. As we were discussing, so how about them Saudis?


You know the saying, never go full retard...and yet here you are with your nonsense. You start the post accusing folks of being Russians and then have nothing to actually back it up. What’s it like knowing that in the real world nobody takes Russian nonsense seriously?

Remember kids, unlike these posters on the inter webs, ha ring a difference of opinion doesn’t mean that your opponent is Russian...silly leftists!
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10281
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:45 am

LittleSprocket wrote:
Lmfao...the Americans were the ones being aggressive because we pulled out of a faulty deal? That isn’t aggression, that is watching out for our own self interests. Do you want to know what is aggression? Try targeting civilian ships in the strait of Hormuz, bombing Saudi Oil Fields, downing foreign own drones in international airspace, funding proxy terrorist organizations that are currently fighting in Syria, Yemen and the West Bank as we speak...never mind them storming our embassy in Iraq.


Hilarious - ‘don’t bother responding’, but two multiparagraph posts were apparently needed to respond to others’ views you preordained a waste of time? This is a forum, yeah.

As for the take on aggression, that is a classic false dilemma fallacy - there are not only two options, actions between states and possible reactions are far more complex than the highly simplified examples you give. The real world of geopolitics is not a black and white place.

Regarding the ‘faulty’ JPCOA, only sycophants in the administration made that determination -
watchdog groups, IAEA, and nonpartisan Congressional Research Service all found Iran was in compliance. So the decision was made in the WH’s interest, not *our* interest, especially considering the agreement was hard-fought in two years of negotiations between the P5+1 parties. Russia, China, Germany the UK etc would likely differ considerably from your take that backing out was in ‘our’ interest. Wanton silliness.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
NIKV69
Posts: 12935
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:49 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
The dysfunction, ineptitude, corruption of the Iranian regime is coming out clear here. That's why you can't trust these people with nuclear weapons.


The first part is true but the second is irrelevant. Iran is a 1970 NPT signatory, and the treaty has a provision for states to develop weapons programs if under threat from another state. Since their main regional competitor has been reported to have access to weapons from a non-signing state, Iran could fairly argue exemption under NPT.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24823846


Who is Iran under threat from exactly?
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
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Jouhou
Topic Author
Posts: 2153
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 4:16 am

Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:52 am

LittleSprocket wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
seb146 wrote:

We actually can do something. Call your Representative. Call your Senator. Three phone calls. Once call to your House member, two to your Senators. Tell them to allow a fair and free testimony. Russia and Republicans have blocked calls to Congress but We The People WILL NOT BE SILENCED!!!


All my states reps and sens are (D)s, no (R)s here to ignore me.

texdravid wrote:
Sad for the deaths of the innocents on PS 752.

But it is midnight for the horrible theocratic mullahs and ayatollahs who have ruined Iran for 40 years and counting.

They lost their bete noir thug Soleimani in a humiliating way. His pinkie ring was the identifier!

They were impotent in their response to the assassination and looked extremely weak by shooting blanks. Chickenshit about confronting Donald because they didn’t want to get pounded more.

Their economy sucks and their own people have been protesting for months. And now, for the first time in my memory post 1979, the protests against the regime is CONTINUING AND ENLARGING despite the death of Soleimani and the loss of the plane. In other words, the Iranian mullahs have lost the narrative and finally the people see right through their bullshit propaganda.

So Donald has won again and again. Trump today, Trump tomorrow, Trump forever. And of course Trump will win re-election.

The others? Reduced to saying it’s Trumps fault that Iran shot down an airliner or the Soleimani was a scholar or hero or the country is mourning him.

Nonsense, he was a murderous thug who got cute and arrogant and was was appropriately made room temperature.


That was unhinged. Are you worshipping Trump as if he's your god???!

Just an FYI for the old people here, I was born in 1984, I don't remember the days of the first ayatollah when historically Iran funded groups committed tons of terrorist atrocities. My lifetime was dominated by watching Sunnis murder Americans for no reason. I feel like your hatred is out of date and misdirected. As we were discussing, so how about them Saudis?


You know the saying, never go full retard...and yet here you are with your nonsense. You start the post accusing folks of being Russians and then have nothing to actually back it up. What’s it like knowing that in the real world nobody takes Russian nonsense seriously?

Remember kids, unlike these posters on the inter webs, ha ring a difference of opinion doesn’t mean that your opponent is Russian...silly leftists!


Wtf I didn't accuse anyone of being Russians, I directed a question towards the literal Russians on here. They have internet access you know.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10281
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:12 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
The dysfunction, ineptitude, corruption of the Iranian regime is coming out clear here. That's why you can't trust these people with nuclear weapons.


The first part is true but the second is irrelevant. Iran is a 1970 NPT signatory, and the treaty has a provision for states to develop weapons programs if under threat from another state. Since their main regional competitor has been reported to have access to weapons from a non-signing state, Iran could fairly argue exemption under NPT.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-24823846


Who is Iran under threat from exactly?


The accounts in the BBC article make it pretty plain. There are lots of denials from KSA, but a few signs since the 1990s that would be worrying if you are Iran. Most recently:

Establishment or nuclear facilities that show a high degree of civil capabilities. KSA doesn’t allow inspections, so verification of transfer to military purposes would not be possible.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ing-finish

WH pushing for further transfers/sales of nuclear tech to KSA. Timing is suspect since KSA has still not signed required arms control protocols.

https://thebulletin.org/2019/04/the-tru ... a-but-why/

Kushner was directly involved with some of these negotiations, which led to a House oversight inquiry:

https://oversight.house.gov/sites/democ ... 9-2019.pdf

If you were Iran, this would absolutely make you believe the US has chosen sides without equivocation and you must enhance defenses.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
bristolflyer1
Posts: 30
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:51 am

So, back to the plane, TU204, and Jouhou's postings. I still want to know what happened and how it happened.

The most likely explanation is there was a shift change at 6am (this was the first plane to take off after 6am) and an inexperienced crew. One of these people, acting alone, without authorization, pulled the trigger.

I still have niggles. Was the operator outside? If so, how could they not have seen it was a plane with the naked eye (we can see it was a plane even on the grainy videos) or at least a pair of binos.

What radar equipment did they have, and is cyberhacking possible to make the plane look like a missile?

It seems like the Iranians decided the day before that they were going to confess, (announcing they would tell us in the morning) so why not just do it then? Why the delay? Did they need time to get all the pieces in place?

The lone operator theory just seems slightly too convenient to me. I will be very suspicious if he/she is declared to have committed suicide, is unable to be questioned by Western authorities etc.

As I said at the start, thus may just be simple human idiocy and someone too trigger happy but I still want to know what their radar showed and why they didn't just physically look up.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 10600
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:29 am

bristolflyer1 wrote:
So, back to the plane, TU204, and Jouhou's postings. I still want to know what happened and how it happened.

The most likely explanation is there was a shift change at 6am (this was the first plane to take off after 6am) and an inexperienced crew. One of these people, acting alone, without authorization, pulled the trigger.

I still have niggles. Was the operator outside? If so, how could they not have seen it was a plane with the naked eye (we can see it was a plane even on the grainy videos) or at least a pair of binos.

What radar equipment did they have, and is cyberhacking possible to make the plane look like a missile?

It seems like the Iranians decided the day before that they were going to confess, (announcing they would tell us in the morning) so why not just do it then? Why the delay? Did they need time to get all the pieces in place?

The lone operator theory just seems slightly too convenient to me. I will be very suspicious if he/she is declared to have committed suicide, is unable to be questioned by Western authorities etc.

As I said at the start, thus may just be simple human idiocy and someone too trigger happy but I still want to know what their radar showed and why they didn't just physically look up.


Nobody here has got these answers, so you have to wait for a report in a few months.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
DLFREEBIRD
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 6:07 pm

Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:11 am

bristolflyer1 wrote:
a US politician said on twitter that US bombers were on their way to Teheran" but I think this was a few days ago and the psychological warfare comment was made yesterday. I think they were trying their best to hint at something.

I have no answers and I may very well be wrong, but I'm still suspicious.


I can't find anything about this US politician do you have a link or name?
 
bristolflyer1
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:21 pm

Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:13 am

@Dutchy, there are probably people on the main thread who know about radar, so I will post there. But yes you are right, we may need to wait a long time for full details and they may never be released.
 
WIederling
Posts: 8919
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:31 am

Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
The thing is he's simply surrounded himself with sycophants. He's fired anyone with a shred of decency the moment they've opposed him.


Are you talking about the Supreme Leader ... of Iran... Oh wait... in Iran firing is a euphemism for State termination.
We cannot allow Iran to have Nuclear Weapons.


They are a signatory of NPT and due to KSA’s nuclear arrangements with Pakistan (a non-NPT state) have an argument under the Article X loophole to defend themselves.


don't forget about Israels nuclear capabilities. the US is another adversary with nuclear capabilities.

There is this funny "world Island idea" around the US seems to subscribe to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geogr ... of_History

Add in the Silk Road development and you understand why the US is busy creating chaos in the Middle East
and the "interface" between Russia and China.
They need control over commerce routes ( Forget "to own the Oil"). They have good access to the High Seas.
Land bound routes Asia :: Europe on the other hand ..
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:34 am

WIederling wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:

Are you talking about the Supreme Leader ... of Iran... Oh wait... in Iran firing is a euphemism for State termination.
We cannot allow Iran to have Nuclear Weapons.


They are a signatory of NPT and due to KSA’s nuclear arrangements with Pakistan (a non-NPT state) have an argument under the Article X loophole to defend themselves.


don't forget about Israels nuclear capabilities. the US is another adversary with nuclear capabilities.

There is this funny "world Island idea" around the US seems to subscribe to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geogr ... of_History

Add in the Silk Road development and you understand why the US is busy creating chaos in the Middle East
and the "interface" between Russia and China.
They need control over commerce routes ( Forget "to own the Oil"). They have good access to the High Seas.
Land bound routes Asia :: Europe on the other hand ..


Please, this isn't some grand scheme for our benefit. This is damaging us. If it benefits anyone, it is only a few.
 
WIederling
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:49 am

Jouhou wrote:
Please, this isn't some grand scheme for our benefit. This is damaging us. If it benefits anyone, it is only a few.


If the voting US population would understand this ... things could improve.
But as things go they have been conditioned for brain stem tickling activated patriotism. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
tu204
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:54 am

bristolflyer1 wrote:
So, back to the plane, TU204, and Jouhou's postings. I still want to know what happened and how it happened.

The most likely explanation is there was a shift change at 6am (this was the first plane to take off after 6am) and an inexperienced crew. One of these people, acting alone, without authorization, pulled the trigger.

I still have niggles. Was the operator outside? If so, how could they not have seen it was a plane with the naked eye (we can see it was a plane even on the grainy videos) or at least a pair of binos.

What radar equipment did they have, and is cyberhacking possible to make the plane look like a missile?

It seems like the Iranians decided the day before that they were going to confess, (announcing they would tell us in the morning) so why not just do it then? Why the delay? Did they need time to get all the pieces in place?

The lone operator theory just seems slightly too convenient to me. I will be very suspicious if he/she is declared to have committed suicide, is unable to be questioned by Western authorities etc.

As I said at the start, thus may just be simple human idiocy and someone too trigger happy but I still want to know what their radar showed and why they didn't just physically look up.


All I can add/answer is that the operator is inside a cabin, like in the cab of truck but with no windows. To be exact the operator's station is located inside an enclosed cabin. You could ofcourse open the cabin door and look outside or you could have a spotter outside providing visual assistance.

The visual identification of the target is exactly why I made that post about the Pantsir (not pretending to know how the Tor's Ops station works). But as I said, on the Pantsir you have a search radar that scans 360° and displays targets on one of the monitors, when you select a target, the turret turns towards that target (with houses the targeting radar, rockets and the IR camera), the picture from the camera is then displayed full screen on one of the monitors and you get a pretty good picture (lets just say that from 10km we had an OK picture of a light, single engine piston aircraft semi-identifiable and coming head on). You also get info like speed, altitude and your azimuth to target.

Again thats not on the Tor, I don't know if that system even has an IR camera.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
bristolflyer1
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:39 pm

DLFreebird - the Twitter comment came from Duchy near the beginning of the thread, perhaps he/she can give you a link.

TU204 - thanks that's very helpful. An accident is slightly more plausible if the operator couldn't see outside. I have the exact same question as you about what could be seen on the monitor. I'm still struggling to understand how a 20ft missile and 140ft plane could be confused. They are not even the same shape!
 
NIKV69
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:17 pm

Aaron747 wrote:

The accounts in the BBC article make it pretty plain. There are lots of denials from KSA, but a few signs since the 1990s that would be worrying if you are Iran.



So SA may be trying to defend themselves from Iran since they are allies of the USA and that means they are a threat to Iran?

Look without going into to much (which we don't have to) Iran is not the victim here, they are the aggressor. There is a reason their citizens are in the streets chanting death to the supreme leader. It's not because them are under threat it's because they are the threat.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:41 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

The accounts in the BBC article make it pretty plain. There are lots of denials from KSA, but a few signs since the 1990s that would be worrying if you are Iran.



So SA may be trying to defend themselves from Iran since they are allies of the USA and that means they are a threat to Iran?

Look without going into to much (which we don't have to) Iran is not the victim here, they are the aggressor. There is a reason their citizens are in the streets chanting death to the supreme leader. It's not because them are under threat it's because they are the threat.


No comment on the nuclear secrecy, Kushner, or KSA refusal to allow inspections? Interesting. Why is that okay for one country, but not another? That makes it look to the world like our ‘standards’ are BS.

As for protests, these two countries are more alike than you think. Many more people in KSA would be in the streets, we just don’t see it because they usually get arrested or shot quickly - even when the protest is about unpaid salary, not just against the government. See 2011, 2012, 2016, 2017, 2018...plenty of examples. Never thought I’d hear Mr. 9/11 in this forum come to the defense of that regime!
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tu204
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:14 pm

bristolflyer1 wrote:
DLFreebird - the Twitter comment came from Duchy near the beginning of the thread, perhaps he/she can give you a link.

TU204 - thanks that's very helpful. An accident is slightly more plausible if the operator couldn't see outside. I have the exact same question as you about what could be seen on the monitor. I'm still struggling to understand how a 20ft missile and 140ft plane could be confused. They are not even the same shape!


Actually I thought about this one too when writing my first post on this subject. You wouldn't be able to tell the size of the object from the picture. What happens when you select the target is the system autozoomed the camera to get a full screen image. I assume this is to have the operator quickly identify the target visually. Without having to waste time and use the "zoom". I don't recall, but there must have been some scale or "zoom factor" on the screen.
There was other writing on the screen so I assume if you analysed it you would know the size.
As far as shape goes, visually depending on the bank angle or whatever you could maybe or maybe not see the wings and make out a plane. As I said it gives you a black and white IR image. So there are things to consider.

I'll point out that I am not a specialist or an operator of a SAM system, I just happened to be inside one as a guest when one was being tested.
And as I said earlier - I am not even sure the TOR has a IR camera to visually confirm at all. Maybe someone can shed some light, as if it does, I would guess it would work similarly due to same state of manufacture and same "generation", although depending on the model of Tor we look at, the Pantsir is more newer.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Tugger
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:25 pm

NIKV69 wrote:
is not the victim here, they are the aggressor.

The "Victim" or "Aggressor" argument is really one that needs to be dropped. One can be both victim and aggressor, it just depends on the time frame one wishes to pick and choose to see things in.

Religion of course also screws things greatly anytime you have some side claiming "god given" absolutes etc. People everywhere begin victimizing and claiming victim-hood based on what their version of god, or the writing attributed to such, supposedly dictate they do. Never trust someone who starts off with their religion as being the most important thing ever.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
GDB
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:19 pm

One take away from this terrible event is that the missile operators were not the Iranian Airforce, or an Air Defence unit of it's army but the Revolutionary Guards. They seem none too proficient to say the least, maybe because they are about more being 'true' to the spirit of the revolution than technical ability.

The botched and knee jerk response to the aircraft has also re-ignited opposition to the regime, which had evaporated after the US assassination of a leading member of the regime. Because as has been shown so often, many in the US do not get how even those who hate their regime are still, as in this case, Iranian. And they have in effect been attacked by a hostile foreign power.

If you really want to undermine this nasty regime, consider who they fear the most.
Not the US, nor Israel but their own huge population of younger people, many of whom merely want the freedom's and life chances most of us enjoy. While still being Iranian, as we are all our own nationalities.
 
anrec80
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Re: Political discussion of PS752 Tragedy

Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:29 pm

seb146 wrote:
We actually can do something. Call your Representative. Call your Senator. Three phone calls. Once call to your House member, two to your Senators. Tell them to allow a fair and free testimony. Russia and Republicans have blocked calls to Congress but We The People WILL NOT BE SILENCED!!!


Do you really think someone cares about those calls? If the call will promise to the House member or a senator a few million donation or you are representing a union or another organization that can deliver him a significant number of votes, then you can count on more or less specific conversation. Otherwise - they have a special garbage bin for this kind of calls.

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