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Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:10 pm
by Dutchy
Iran's admission of guilt over plane crash sparks unrest in Tehran

Protesters speak out against supreme leader in response to deaths of Iranians in disaster

Iran’s embattled regime was shaken by a wave of international condemnation and domestic criticism last night after admitting its forces shot down a Ukrainian passenger plane with 176 people on board and lied in a bid to cover up its role in the tragedy.

Facing possibly the biggest crisis since the 1979 Islamic revolution, senior clerical, political and military leaders scrambled to contain the fallout from what President Hassan Rouhani termed a “disastrous mistake”.


Link

Something good might come out of this mess. Interesting that if a government lies to its people, people will react. One theory is that the Chernobyl disaster kicked off the collapse of the USSR, years later.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:11 pm
by SanDiegoLover
Interesting, Iran holding their leaders to a higher standard than Americans or Brits do their own.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:32 pm
by Jouhou
I would rather Iran rediscovered itself in a context that didn't involve my country in the original cascade of events and it was a wholly internal thing.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:45 pm
by noviorbis77
They have just arrested the UK Ambassador in Iran.

I feel for the people. It is a country of few freedoms, governed by backward ideology.

Iran is a perfect example of why governments need to be secular.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:07 pm
by Jouhou
noviorbis77 wrote:
They have just arrested the UK Ambassador in Iran.

I feel for the people. It is a country of few freedoms, governed by backward ideology.

Iran is a perfect example of why governments need to be secular.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran ... ZA0WW?il=0

It seems he was let go, but that's still a big diplomatic no-no.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:14 pm
by Pi7472000
It is really crazy we still have governments like the U.S. and Iran that are not secular. We live in a world of science, knowledge, facts, and education. This is not 1595 anymore. We need to move beyond religion in governing people whether it is in Iran or the United States.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:18 pm
by alfa164
noviorbis77 wrote:
Iran is a perfect example of why governments need to be secular.


Are are Saudi Arabia, Iraq, India, and - increasingly - the USA.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:01 am
by Jouhou
Pi7472000 wrote:
It is really crazy we still have governments like the U.S. and Iran that are not secular. We live in a world of science, knowledge, facts, and education. This is not 1595 anymore. We need to move beyond religion in governing people whether it is in Iran or the United States.


The U.S. Government is secular, the fact that fundamentalists keep trying to take it over doesn't change what the structure is supposed to be.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:39 am
by AirWorthy99
Pi7472000 wrote:
It is really crazy we still have governments like the U.S. and Iran that are not secular. We live in a world of science, knowledge, facts, and education. This is not 1595 anymore. We need to move beyond religion in governing people whether it is in Iran or the United States.


Since when is the US ruled by un-elected clerics or religious elders? Or its constitution a strictly religious document?

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:59 am
by flyguy89
alfa164 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Iran is a perfect example of why governments need to be secular.


Are are Saudi Arabia, Iraq, India, and - increasingly - the USA.

Meanwhile, there are still countries in Europe with official state religions, but sure...let's take another swat at the US.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:26 am
by A101
Jouhou wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
I cannot wait to see all the comments from Americans about how Trump is standing up for Iranians by supporting their protests and struggle for freedom against their cruel Islamic mullah gov't.

Trump claiming to support ordinary Iranians protesting for freedom while imposing sanctions that cripple ordinary Iranians is only something those with a 2D understanding of geopolitics can actually believe. Iranians may be outraged at their gov't for shooting down the Ukranian plane but they equally despise the US for making access to medicine and other critical goods impossible. Trump is nothing more than a vulture feeding on opportunism for his own reelection at the expense of those mourning in despair and tragedy.


Trump's supporters are a minority, the U.S. Is under minority rule. While the majority of Americans see the Iranian government as an adversary, we're not OK with the mess he is starting in the middle east, where our presence was already controversial both at home and abroad.

This is also why I feel that if the Iranian people ever rise up to force change, I don't want it to be because of us. Who would trust it if it was because of us?



Well his approval rating is roughly the same as Obama's at the end of his presidency

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/tr ... l-ratings/

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 6:49 am
by Jouhou
A101 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
sonicruiser wrote:
I cannot wait to see all the comments from Americans about how Trump is standing up for Iranians by supporting their protests and struggle for freedom against their cruel Islamic mullah gov't.

Trump claiming to support ordinary Iranians protesting for freedom while imposing sanctions that cripple ordinary Iranians is only something those with a 2D understanding of geopolitics can actually believe. Iranians may be outraged at their gov't for shooting down the Ukranian plane but they equally despise the US for making access to medicine and other critical goods impossible. Trump is nothing more than a vulture feeding on opportunism for his own reelection at the expense of those mourning in despair and tragedy.


Trump's supporters are a minority, the U.S. Is under minority rule. While the majority of Americans see the Iranian government as an adversary, we're not OK with the mess he is starting in the middle east, where our presence was already controversial both at home and abroad.

This is also why I feel that if the Iranian people ever rise up to force change, I don't want it to be because of us. Who would trust it if it was because of us?



Well his approval rating is roughly the same as Obama's at the end of his presidency

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/tr ... l-ratings/


Then check polling on support for war with Iran. It's been consistently hovering around 25%.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:23 pm
by Dutchy
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
But, Trump’s Tweet in Farsi was the most liked tweet ((312k likes, at last count)in history there. So, maybe he’s more popular for Iranian policy than here?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/trump-tweet-in-farsi-the-most-liked-persian-tweet-in-history-of-twitter


I was genuinely curious about what he said on Twitter in Farsi. And I actually was all in the mood to give a compliment, then I read it..........

“To the brave and suffering Iranian people: I have stood with you since the beginning of my presidency and my government will continue to stand with you. We are following your protests closely. Your courage is inspiring,”


This is actually putting oil on the flames (Dutch expression which seems to be quite appropriate here). This is not reaching out to the Iranian leadership, this is saying to the leadership, we support your enemies. So this will not solve anything, quite the opposite.

So if the current White House does something which is good for the world, I will acknowledge it, happy to do so, but this definitely isn't it, for reasons I explained to you.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:57 pm
by NIKV69
SanDiegoLover wrote:
Interesting, Iran holding their leaders to a higher standard than Americans or Brits do their own.


Don't worry as soon as we have a terrorist regime leading the country I will get out there and protest. :sarcastic:

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:22 pm
by Jouhou
Dutchy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
But, Trump’s Tweet in Farsi was the most liked tweet ((312k likes, at last count)in history there. So, maybe he’s more popular for Iranian policy than here?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/trump-tweet-in-farsi-the-most-liked-persian-tweet-in-history-of-twitter


I was genuinely curious about what he said on Twitter in Farsi. And I actually was all in the mood to give a compliment, then I read it..........

“To the brave and suffering Iranian people: I have stood with you since the beginning of my presidency and my government will continue to stand with you. We are following your protests closely. Your courage is inspiring,”


This is actually putting oil on the flames (Dutch expression which seems to be quite appropriate here). This is not reaching out to the Iranian leadership, this is saying to the leadership, we support your enemies. So this will not solve anything, quite the opposite.

So if the current White House does something which is good for the world, I will acknowledge it, happy to do so, but this definitely isn't it, for reasons I explained to you.


American English saying is "throwing gas on the fire". Didn't change too much between languages.

Also apparently it any of the Trump trolls start thinking unhappiness with Trump=support for the Iranian government this is why:

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/0 ... ers-095762

They don't really think for their selves so they will just start parroting talking points.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:24 pm
by anrec80
noviorbis77 wrote:
They have just arrested the UK Ambassador in Iran.


Rightfully so. Hopefully they kick him out. It’s not an ambassador business to take part in protest activity, or any internal political processes for that reason.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:46 pm
by Jouhou
anrec80 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
They have just arrested the UK Ambassador in Iran.


Rightfully so. Hopefully they kick him out. It’s not an ambassador business to take part in protest activity, or any internal political processes for that reason.


It was a vigil for the customers turned into a protest. This accusation of diplomats inciting protests happens all the time and it could be true however it's not something easily proven unless someone has video of them "inciting".

In closed off authoritarian countries it could be that being in the wrong place at the wrong time is considered incitement too.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:44 pm
by anrec80
Jouhou wrote:
It was a vigil for the customers turned into a protest. This accusation of diplomats inciting protests happens all the time and it could be true however it's not something easily proven unless someone has video of them "inciting".

In closed off authoritarian countries it could be that being in the wrong place at the wrong time is considered incitement too.


I wouldn’t think that the ambassador himself was inciting the protest, but certainly the right thing to do for the ambassador is to steer clear from such events. On the other hand, Western nations have strong reputation for supporting such protests and all sorts of “democratic foundations” that actually can incite the protests. Hence the argument that he “was in the wrong place at the wrong time” is a tough sell.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:49 pm
by Jouhou
anrec80 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
It was a vigil for the customers turned into a protest. This accusation of diplomats inciting protests happens all the time and it could be true however it's not something easily proven unless someone has video of them "inciting".

In closed off authoritarian countries it could be that being in the wrong place at the wrong time is considered incitement too.


I wouldn’t think that the ambassador himself was inciting the protest, but certainly the right thing to do for the ambassador is to steer clear from such events. On the other hand, Western nations have strong reputation for supporting such protests and all sorts of “democratic foundations” that actually can incite the protests. Hence the argument that he “was in the wrong place at the wrong time” is a tough sell.


But in this case it was a vigil, which seems completely appropriate for a diplomat to attend. It wasn't arranged as a protest.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:54 pm
by trpmb6
Protestors chanting, "our enemy is right here, they are lying its america" https://mobile.twitter.com/farnazfassih ... ernment%2F

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:10 am
by scbriml
anrec80 wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
They have just arrested the UK Ambassador in Iran.


Rightfully so. Hopefully they kick him out. It’s not an ambassador business to take part in protest activity, or any internal political processes for that reason.


Of course. The fact he wasn't taking part in a protest is entirely beside the point. But thanks for playing. :sarcastic:

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:23 am
by SteelChair
Dutchy wrote:
Iran's admission of guilt over plane crash sparks unrest in Tehran

Protesters speak out against supreme leader in response to deaths of Iranians in disaster

Iran’s embattled regime was shaken by a wave of international condemnation and domestic criticism last night after admitting its forces shot down a Ukrainian passenger plane with 176 people on board and lied in a bid to cover up its role in the tragedy.

Facing possibly the biggest crisis since the 1979 Islamic revolution, senior clerical, political and military leaders scrambled to contain the fallout from what President Hassan Rouhani termed a “disastrous mistake”.


Link

Something good might come out of this mess. Interesting that if a government lies to its people, people will react. One theory is that the Chernobyl disaster kicked off the collapse of the USSR, years later.


Indeed, something good may come out of this mess. Many people still haven't figured out that the President of the United States is dumb like a fox.

As for the collapse of the USSR, there is also a theory that Ronald Wilson Reagan had something to do with it. Every 40-50 years or so, a Republican President emerges on the scene to clean up major messes.....Lincoln/Slavery......TR/Trusts and the environment.....Reagan/The cold war.....Trump/be careful you may miss it.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:25 am
by ArchGuy1
SteelChair wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Iran's admission of guilt over plane crash sparks unrest in Tehran

Protesters speak out against supreme leader in response to deaths of Iranians in disaster

Iran’s embattled regime was shaken by a wave of international condemnation and domestic criticism last night after admitting its forces shot down a Ukrainian passenger plane with 176 people on board and lied in a bid to cover up its role in the tragedy.

Facing possibly the biggest crisis since the 1979 Islamic revolution, senior clerical, political and military leaders scrambled to contain the fallout from what President Hassan Rouhani termed a “disastrous mistake”.


Link

Something good might come out of this mess. Interesting that if a government lies to its people, people will react. One theory is that the Chernobyl disaster kicked off the collapse of the USSR, years later.


Indeed, something good may come out of this mess. Many people still haven't figured out that the President of the United States is dumb like a fox.

As for the collapse of the USSR, there is also a theory that Ronald Wilsin Reagan had something to do with it. Every 40-50 years or so, a Republican President emerges on the scene to clean up major messes.....Lincoln/Slavery......TR/Trusts and the environment.....Reagan/The cold war.....Trump/be careful you may miss it.

What is Trump coming in to clean up.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:48 am
by GalaxyFlyer
40 years of cocked up US Middle East policy beginning with Carter. Jimmah believed it was “students” ransacking our embassy and holding hostages so he wouldn’t have to actually engage the Iranian government.

Re: Unrest in Tehran

Posted: Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:14 am
by Jouhou
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
40 years of cocked up US Middle East policy beginning with Carter. Jimmah believed it was “students” ransacking our embassy and holding hostages so he wouldn’t have to actually engage the Iranian government.



*Nixon. Now that I've learned we originally agreed to defend Saudi interests militarily in the ME during the Nixon admin, most of this seems to originate with that.

Also, wasn't the extreme anti-western sentiment that fueled the Islamist take over of Iran mostly because of a feeling of being exploited for oil by western countries? I'm pretty sure originally the middle eastern messes started with an actual lust for oil but is now mostly just instability perpetuating itself.

Exceptions:I guess anything to do with Israel is a separate mess and Afghanistan while not being in the middle east but near by was really ripped apart by cold war BS between the U.S. And Russia.