ArchGuy1
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Protests in Glasgow

Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:13 am

Thousands of pro Scottish Independence protesters have marched through Glasgow under poor weather conditions and is is the first of eight that are planned for this year. The first match came in the wake of the general election last month, which saw the pro Scottish independence win 48 out of 59 seats in Scotland's parliament, while Conservatives won the majority of the UK Parliament. I do hope that Scotland will remain part of the UK as they worked together with England during World War 1 and World War 2.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-sc ... s-51067690
 
johns624
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:32 pm

They'll get independence when Quebec and Texas do. The outcome is always much rosier when you're talking about it then when you actually do it.
 
ArchGuy1
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:25 pm

johns624 wrote:
They'll get independence when Quebec and Texas do. The outcome is always much rosier when you're talking about it then when you actually do it.

Scotland voted to remain part of Britain in 2014, but since Brexit, there have been renewed calls for Scottish independence.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:53 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
They'll get independence when Quebec and Texas do. The outcome is always much rosier when you're talking about it then when you actually do it.

Scotland voted to remain part of Britain in 2014, but since Brexit, there have been renewed calls for Scottish independence.


Yes, they voted remain just. One of the points was that Scotland would be out of the EU when it became an independent nation. With Brexit around the corner, that has changed and now they need their independence to rejoin the EU. Scotland voted to remain by a large margin.
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ArchGuy1
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:00 pm

Dutchy wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
They'll get independence when Quebec and Texas do. The outcome is always much rosier when you're talking about it then when you actually do it.

Scotland voted to remain part of Britain in 2014, but since Brexit, there have been renewed calls for Scottish independence.


Yes, they voted remain just. One of the points was that Scotland would be out of the EU when it became an independent nation. With Brexit around the corner, that has changed and now they need their independence to rejoin the EU. Scotland voted to remain by a large margin.

The recent protests in Glasgow are to place pressure for Scotland to leave the UK.
 
Bongodog49
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:51 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
Thousands of pro Scottish Independence protesters have marched through Glasgow under poor weather conditions and is is the first of eight that are planned for this year. The first match came in the wake of the general election last month, which saw the pro Scottish independence win 48 out of 59 seats in Scotland's parliament, while Conservatives won the majority of the UK Parliament. I do hope that Scotland will remain part of the UK as they worked together with England during World War 1 and World War 2.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-sc ... s-51067690


You are a little short on the history, effectively Scotland took over England in 1603 when King James VI of Scotland became King of England on the death of Elizabeth 1
Presently the SNP bleat about being ruled from Westminster, despite having many powers devolved to the Scottish parliament and Scots MP's being able to vote on purely English and Welsh matters, with no reciprocal arrangement.
The only reason that Scotland has a reduced voice in the National Govt is due to them voting SNP, when they voted for the mainstream parties they always took more cabinet seats than their population would justify under proportionality. We recently had 13 years of our PM being Scots born (Blair & Brown) the rest of us didn't complain about that on the basis of 2 Scots in a row. They also receive 20% more in public expenditure per head of population under the Barnett formula.

In 2014 they had a "once in a generation" vote on independence, 5 years is a little short for a generation and thus have another one.

Can't really understand why they dislike rule from Westminster where they traditionally have had a high degree of influence, but would like rule from Brussels where as a nation with a population of 5,7 million their influence would be minimal slotting in between Denmark & Finland
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
ArchGuy1 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
They'll get independence when Quebec and Texas do. The outcome is always much rosier when you're talking about it then when you actually do it.

Scotland voted to remain part of Britain in 2014, but since Brexit, there have been renewed calls for Scottish independence.


Yes, they voted remain just. One of the points was that Scotland would be out of the EU when it became an independent nation. With Brexit around the corner, that has changed and now they need their independence to rejoin the EU. Scotland voted to remain by a large margin.

Of note is that by the popular vote during the general election the pro Scottish independence parties (the SNP) has a lower share of the vote than the other parties, incidentally it was the same 45% that was achieved during the 2014 referendum. I’m not sure that constitutes a clear mandate...

Fred


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moo
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:25 pm

ArchGuy1 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
They'll get independence when Quebec and Texas do. The outcome is always much rosier when you're talking about it then when you actually do it.

Scotland voted to remain part of Britain in 2014, but since Brexit, there have been renewed calls for Scottish independence.


Since the day after the 2014 result, there were calls for indyref2 - you dont have to wait until the 2016 Brexit referendum for that. The SNP never stopped calling for another referendum - Brexit just gives them another argument. The SNP won't stop until either the party fades away or they get their wish.

Sturgeon and the SNP wouldn't think twice about taking Scotland out of the UK with a 51% result, so their argument about "Scotlands voice" is thin. That said, I'd love to see what an independent Scotland might be like, given all the promises the SNP are making...
 
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moo
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:15 pm

Nicola Sturgeons request for indyref2 has been officially rejected by Boris Johnson - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-sc ... s-51106796
 
Zaf
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:54 am

I think it's too early. There should be at least 15 years between referendums. They had their chance in 2014. They decided to continue let the English rule them. The English decided Brexit. Bad luck. Get over it.
 
TSS
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:28 am

Zaf wrote:
I think it's too early. There should be at least 15 years between referendums. They had their chance in 2014. They decided to continue let the English rule them. The English decided Brexit. Bad luck. Get over it.


They might be able to wrangle another referendum under the pretext that the rest of the UK was a part of the EU at the time of the last one. The big question remains, though: UK or EU, which choice will allow the proper amount of sugar to be put back into Irn Bru?
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vc10
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:26 pm

Perhaps the SNP constant demands for another independence referendum has more to do with distracting the population attention away from the terrible way that the SNP are running the Scottish government . Income tax in Scotland higher than the rest of the UK, Education standards falling especially at Highers Level
and the budget deficit at 7% of GDP [£12.5 billion] compares to 1.1 % of GDP for the rest of the UK
 
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zkojq
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:55 pm

It's time for self determination. Westminster rule had failed. Holyrood government is much more effective and popular. Westminster always takes Scotland for granted. Scotland doesn't want Brexit and all the nonsense that comes with that. Scotland doesn't want more tory chaos. The folks south of the border can have all the Brexit, Tories and xenophobia they want but it's time for Scotland to leave, gain Independence, rebuild Hadrian's Wall, rejoin the EU and plot its own path forwards.


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johns624 wrote:
The outcome is always much rosier when you're talking about it then when you actually do it.


Yeah independence worked out really badly for Iceland, Singapore, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.

ArchGuy1 wrote:
johns624 wrote:
They'll get independence when Quebec and Texas do. The outcome is always much rosier when you're talking about it then when you actually do it.

Scotland voted to remain part of Britain in 2014, but since Brexit, there have been renewed calls for Scottish independence.


Scotland was blackmailed by unionists into supporting remain because otherwise the country would lose EU membership.

Bongodog49 wrote:
They also receive 20% more in public expenditure per head of population under the Barnett formula.


Oh please. Westminster mismanagement has pissed away most of Scotland's oil wealth. The money could have been put into a sovereign wealth fund like Norway does but instead Thatcher gave tax cuts for the wealthy.

Zaf wrote:
I think it's too early. There should be at least 15 years between referendums. They had their chance in 2014. They decided to continue let the English rule them.


Absolute nonsense. Scotland was told that if they wanted to stay in the EU, they'd have to vote no on independence.


Zaf wrote:
The English decided Brexit. Bad luck. Get over it.


And this kind of dismissive attitude where England gets to decide on Scotland's behalf is exactly why independence is surging in popularity. Scotland has never wanted to make decisions on behalf of England but England always does on behalf of Scotland and then wonders why the Scots aren't happy about it. It's not rocket science.
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johns624
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:08 pm

zkojq wrote:
it's time for Scotland to leave, gain Independence, rejoin the EU and plot its own path forwards.

Bit of an oxymoron there, isn't there? How much say will little Scotland have in the EU? Much less than at Westminster.
 
johns624
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:10 pm

zkojq wrote:

johns624 wrote:
The outcome is always much rosier when you're talking about it then when you actually do it.


Yeah independence worked out really badly for Iceland, Singapore, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
I was specifically talking about Quebec and Texas. They all want to be independent but they still want "special" status with the country that they want to break away from. You're either an independent country or you're not.
 
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JannEejit
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:28 pm

vc10 wrote:
Perhaps the SNP constant demands for another independence referendum has more to do with distracting the population attention away from the terrible way that the SNP are running the Scottish government . Income tax in Scotland higher than the rest of the UK,


I have no objections to higher tax when it pays for free higher education, free prescriptions, free childcare etc etc. There are of course certain UK political parties who think taxation is a crime and ought to be abolished, whilst still expecting a big bang for their diminishing buck.

As for the pro-independence marches, well they're more tokenistic than actual protests, generally preaching to the converted than increasing support for the concept. I'm pro-indie myself but I also think another referendum just now is too soon. I get that the whole Brexit EU withdrawal thing has re-coloured the political landscape in Scotland. But without a well thought through and coherent post indie plan, the SNP risk pissing another referendum up against the wall and then it really does become a "once in a lifetime" scenario. That said, they did produce a fairly hefty tome of a white paper last time, available free to all who wished a copy, and still lost. Whereas the whole Brexit notion seemed to be sold to an eager UK from something written on the back of an old Etonian's fag packet and passed around as a great idea.

I voted against Brexit incidentally, and I still see it that way. Let's see how it goes though, if it's a complete disaster, especially in Scotland then Boris & Co will have done the SNP's job for them as indie support will jump through the roof. Personally I think referendum results need to have something in the region of at least a 60/40 split to be mandated. Anything else is just a cue for years and years of arguments and unrest.
 
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zkojq
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:29 pm

johns624 wrote:
How much say will little Scotland have in the EU?

Same amount of say in the EU Parliament as they currently have, more say in the EU Commission than currently.

johns624 wrote:
Much less than at Westminster.

Well that's hardly an apples for apples comparison, is it? Scotland will have full say with a Sovereign Holyrood.

JannEejit wrote:
I get that the whole Brexit EU withdrawal thing has re-coloured the political landscape in Scotland. But without a well thought through and coherent post indie plan, the SNP risk pissing another referendum up against the wall and then it really does become a "once in a lifetime" scenario.

Indeed, that's a fair point. Scotland cannot afford lose a second referendum so the timing needs to be carefully managed.

JannEejit wrote:
That said, they did produce a fairly hefty tome of a white paper last time, available free to all who wished a copy, and still lost.

Well that's the problem isn't it - if you make a detailed plan, opponents can attack and poke holes in your plan. Don't have a plan and you can promise everybody rainbows and unicorns as did the brexiteers....

JannEejit wrote:
Whereas the whole Brexit notion seemed to be sold to an eager UK from something written on the back of an old Etonian's fag packet and passed around as a great idea.

Mhm

JannEejit wrote:
if it's a complete disaster, especially in Scotland then Boris & Co will have done the SNP's job for them as indie support will jump through the roof.

Yes that's true. As Nicola rightly said today, independence long term is probably an inevitability. As both Brexit and years more of Tory rule become more and more of a disaster, support for independence will rise. Eventually the Tories will see that getting rid of Scotland is a way to ensure a Westminster majority for the next 30 years.


JannEejit wrote:
Personally I think referendum results need to have something in the region of at least a 60/40 split to be mandated. Anything else is just a cue for years and years of arguments and unrest.

Once could say the same for the Brexit referendum....
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Aesma
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Re: Protests in Glasgow

Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:53 pm

At this point it's a game, Sturgeon asked for it fully aware BoJo would refuse, they're just acting. She wouldn't want to have the referendum right now.

In a couple of years, when Brexit has proven disastrous, however...
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