MaverickM11
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:13 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Don't put words on my mouth, I don't agree with banning anyone.

Well it's your party, buddy. So enjoy your identity politics.



Those are not identity politics, those are policies, many of which not everyone agrees.

...policies based on...drumroll please...identity! I love how you're whining about identity politics but can't absolve yourself fast enough from your own, far uglier, identity politics. Never seen anyone back pedal so fast in my life. :rotfl:
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:21 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
BN747 wrote:

And BOTH of you two are exactly why the ignorance of the past (America's horrific beginnings) will live in the future.

Since you TWO geniuses of all things politics are far worse than any cherry-picking Bible thumper. At least they know the bad parts of the Bible are there - somewhere but they make sure to avoid those passages.

You guys, you unique group of 'politically juiced up Americans' hate the bad history that is America's past, you hate it when people discuss it, you hate hearing others discuss it, you hate it all ..period and just one or two reasons. (should you classify yourselves as sane).

Like all conservatives, the nature of your politics is cemented in a 'worry about me first' mentality followed up by my wife, family and those like me - full stop!
Dividing and making enemies of everyone else comes easy as making toast for that mindset.

American conservatives aren't the first to hold that view, but Americans certainly have taken it to a religious cult-like level, they really mean everyone (Dems, the Chinese, brown-skinned Undocumented (they call them illegal aliens), Arabs (except the rich Saudis, only the RICH Saudis), the Iranians, soon to be the Iraqis and there has been a labeling of this nature since day one. And on day one (actually was American brand Slavery)... since that divide all the efforts to confront, address and atone for it's past wrongs is met by virulent resistance at every turn...by people like you, both of you as well as the others on this board that I've done those tango with. Plenty of denials...but no factual refuting of any kind.

The second reason is simple. You don't care. You don't know and it's not important. You people like to just jump into 1950's America's Leave it to Beaver days, everything was perfect and everyone happy to be Americans - end of story.

How on this Earth can you two people convince yourselves (let alone anyone else) that you know the course/actions best to be taken by America (charting it's future) when you intentionally choose to ignore, dismiss disrespect and dishonor it's factual past/history? How?

America did not start then and it has an interwoven link with it's sordid history and no matter how hard you try, you cannot separate it or deny it.

You great defenders of America, most likely never served in the military and yet you're so gung-ho America...which America?

Certainly not the one based on the US Constitution!
Because if you did, you WOULD have huge issues with this administration pimping our Troops to Saudi Arabia for cash.
You'd have a problem with chicken-shit leader publicly attacked American War heroes and veterans - alive and dead.
You'd have a problem with a leader abusing the courts systems and disrespecting members of the Judiciary based solely on their race.

During the Obama years you toughed it out by 'critiquing his policies'..which in dog whistle speak is racist vitriolic abuse disguised as 'criticism' and luckily for those of us who care about the prosperity of America and it's vision of a greater version of itself...know that it cannot be achieved by being led by an Pathological Lying Sociopath.

So what LCDFlight, you met one single struggling guy from SE Asia (I've live all over that region) and have feelings about his struggle - that makes you an expert of international struggles, huh?

Try experiencing a few 100s more (it's called living life and mix it up a bit re:races) then come share what you've learned because with that millie nillie story it just isn't anything at all.

BN747


Well guess what, because I have lived outside of America many times, lived in many different countries. Yes, all of which are very nice, and nice people I know a lot about other countries.

But as with America, many countries did have struggles, and wars, and issues, and currently still have, like any other country. Nonetheless the people from those nations are proud of their heritage, of their homeland. Contrary to many in the left who constantly say how bad and awful our country is, and how bad is our history. Guess what, almost NO country has a perfect history, and if you believe that, then you are insane.

I don't believe in American exceptionalism, because nothing or no one is perfect, but believe me after living in many parts, I love every square foot of it, with its faults, and its greatness.

Unlike you on the left who constantly think that you will find utopia somewhere in sometime, that's impossible. And to me this is the closes to perfection there is.

So we don't need your anti-American lecturing here, I understand that hating America is hip, and is what most of the extreme left is doing but its destructive and won't get us anywhere.

There was a time when Liberals were the most tolerant and open minded people, it turns out Conservatives are now that.


Where have you lived abroad and for how long? What parts of the US have you lived in as well?


Europe, South America, East Asia, no need to actually tell you personal info, but you get the picture
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:22 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Well it's your party, buddy. So enjoy your identity politics.



Those are not identity politics, those are policies, many of which not everyone agrees.

...policies based on...drumroll please...identity! I love how you're whining about identity politics but can't absolve yourself fast enough from your own, far uglier, identity politics. Never seen anyone back pedal so fast in my life. :rotfl:



You are avoiding admitting that this is an issue, even your buddy Bernie is concerned.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:27 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Well guess what, because I have lived outside of America many times, lived in many different countries. Yes, all of which are very nice, and nice people I know a lot about other countries.

But as with America, many countries did have struggles, and wars, and issues, and currently still have, like any other country. Nonetheless the people from those nations are proud of their heritage, of their homeland. Contrary to many in the left who constantly say how bad and awful our country is, and how bad is our history. Guess what, almost NO country has a perfect history, and if you believe that, then you are insane.

I don't believe in American exceptionalism, because nothing or no one is perfect, but believe me after living in many parts, I love every square foot of it, with its faults, and its greatness.

Unlike you on the left who constantly think that you will find utopia somewhere in sometime, that's impossible. And to me this is the closes to perfection there is.

So we don't need your anti-American lecturing here, I understand that hating America is hip, and is what most of the extreme left is doing but its destructive and won't get us anywhere.

There was a time when Liberals were the most tolerant and open minded people, it turns out Conservatives are now that.


Where have you lived abroad and for how long? What parts of the US have you lived in as well?


Europe, South America, East Asia, no need to actually tell you personal info, but you get the picture


Lots of ground covered for a millenial that has not served in the military. :eyepopping: Are you a child of the .01% or something?

Oh and still awaiting your response to this dose of identity politics

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... muslim?amp
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:34 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Where have you lived abroad and for how long? What parts of the US have you lived in as well?


Europe, South America, East Asia, no need to actually tell you personal info, but you get the picture


Lots of ground covered for a millenial that has not served in the military. :eyepopping: Are you a child of the .01% or something?

Oh and still awaiting your response to this dose of identity politics

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... muslim?amp


I work in the aviation/aerospace industry, sorry
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:38 am

And why are you not also calling this dude out? The WH still refuses to fire him:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 1.html?amp
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:40 am

Aaron747 wrote:
And why are you not also calling this dude out? The WH still refuses to fire him:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 1.html?amp

Thats your job and thats not identity politics
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:41 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Europe, South America, East Asia, no need to actually tell you personal info, but you get the picture


Lots of ground covered for a millenial that has not served in the military. :eyepopping: Are you a child of the .01% or something?

Oh and still awaiting your response to this dose of identity politics

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... muslim?amp


I work in the aviation/aerospace industry, sorry


Cool story, bro. Interesting to be in the industry and avoid posting to the Middle East or South Asia.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:44 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
And why are you not also calling this dude out? The WH still refuses to fire him:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 1.html?amp

Thats your job and thats not identity politics


I see, so only when a progressive is doing it, it’s identity politics. You obviously didn’t read the article since the former Breitbart editor made clear she spent two years communicating with Miller on white nationalist issues and was now ashamed of it. That’s identity politics to a T. Congrats on pigeonholing yourself.
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:47 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Lots of ground covered for a millenial that has not served in the military. :eyepopping: Are you a child of the .01% or something?

Oh and still awaiting your response to this dose of identity politics

https://thehill.com/homenews/administra ... muslim?amp


I work in the aviation/aerospace industry, sorry


Cool story, bro. Interesting to be in the industry and avoid posting to the Middle East or South Asia.


Thats unavoidable for the future, why the questions?
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:47 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
And why are you not also calling this dude out? The WH still refuses to fire him:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 1.html?amp

Thats your job and thats not identity politics


I see, so only when a progressive is doing it, it’s identity politics. You obviously didn’t read the article since the former Breitbart editor made clear she spent two years communicating with Miller on white nationalist issues and was now ashamed of it. That’s identity politics to a T. Congrats on pigeonholing yourself.


Your article is fake news... more smears
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:49 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

I work in the aviation/aerospace industry, sorry


Cool story, bro. Interesting to be in the industry and avoid posting to the Middle East or South Asia.


Thats unavoidable for the future, why the questions?


I’m in HR, investigation is kind of my thing. If something smells, there’s usually a reason.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aaron747
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:50 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Thats your job and thats not identity politics


I see, so only when a progressive is doing it, it’s identity politics. You obviously didn’t read the article since the former Breitbart editor made clear she spent two years communicating with Miller on white nationalist issues and was now ashamed of it. That’s identity politics to a T. Congrats on pigeonholing yourself.


Your article is fake news... more smears


:rotfl: And that’s precisely why we’re sitting here gauging the extent of your inconsistencies and illogical statements.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
BN747
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:34 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

I see, so only when a progressive is doing it, it’s identity politics. You obviously didn’t read the article since the former Breitbart editor made clear she spent two years communicating with Miller on white nationalist issues and was now ashamed of it. That’s identity politics to a T. Congrats on pigeonholing yourself.


Your article is fake news... more smears


:rotfl: And that’s precisely why we’re sitting here gauging the extent of your inconsistencies and illogical statements.


Not only that, his tales of living in all these places and all this experience and yet he has the understanding of American Political history as a gnat in a coma.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:57 am

Gotta attack the messenger when there arent any good arguments
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:03 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Gotta attack the messenger when there arent any good arguments


‘Good arguments’ is rich coming from an endless litany of logical fallacies - false dilemma, false equivalency, red herrings, appeals to emotion and authority...virtually all of your replies are non sequitur. How does a claimed adult expect to be taken seriously when never listening to reason?

‘Fake news’, ‘I’m sure’, ‘to me’, and ‘what about XYZ’ are not valid responses to specific questions, and never will be.
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:37 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Gotta attack the messenger when there arent any good arguments


‘Good arguments’ is rich coming from an endless litany of logical fallacies - false dilemma, false equivalency, red herrings, appeals to emotion and authority...virtually all of your replies are non sequitur. How does a claimed adult expect to be taken seriously when never listening to reason?

‘Fake news’, ‘I’m sure’, ‘to me’, and ‘what about XYZ’ are not valid responses to specific questions, and never will be.


This is what the intellectual fascism does, tries to scare people into silence.

Not going to happen.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:45 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Gotta attack the messenger when there arent any good arguments


‘Good arguments’ is rich coming from an endless litany of logical fallacies - false dilemma, false equivalency, red herrings, appeals to emotion and authority...virtually all of your replies are non sequitur. How does a claimed adult expect to be taken seriously when never listening to reason?

‘Fake news’, ‘I’m sure’, ‘to me’, and ‘what about XYZ’ are not valid responses to specific questions, and never will be.


This is what the intellectual fascism does, tries to scare people into silence.

Not going to happen.


Seriously dude, it’s not getting any better. ‘Fascism’ doesn’t mean what you think it does. Fascism is *forced* suppression of ideals and ideas by an authoritarian state, usually extreme left or right wing. Nothing remotely close to that going on here - no desaparesidos or executions whatsoever. If you think people pointing out obvious flaws in your reasoning and knowledge is fascism, you definitely haven’t seen as much of the world as claimed.
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:48 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

‘Good arguments’ is rich coming from an endless litany of logical fallacies - false dilemma, false equivalency, red herrings, appeals to emotion and authority...virtually all of your replies are non sequitur. How does a claimed adult expect to be taken seriously when never listening to reason?

‘Fake news’, ‘I’m sure’, ‘to me’, and ‘what about XYZ’ are not valid responses to specific questions, and never will be.


This is what the intellectual fascism does, tries to scare people into silence.

Not going to happen.


Seriously dude, it’s not getting any better. ‘Fascism’ doesn’t mean what you think it does. Fascism is *forced* suppression of ideals and ideas by an authoritarian state, usually extreme left or right wing. Nothing remotely close to that going on here - no desaparesidos or executions whatsoever. If you think people pointing out obvious flaws in your reasoning and knowledge is fascism, you definitely haven’t seen as much of the world as claimed.


Dude instead of debating you are using these tactics, howcome you dont address the subject directly?
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:12 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

I work in the aviation/aerospace industry, sorry


Cool story, bro. Interesting to be in the industry and avoid posting to the Middle East or South Asia.


Thats unavoidable for the future, why the questions?


These are because you appear to be lying. The reasons for that include -but not limited to- the fact that your claims emerge only to counter very rational questioning of your points of view.

To wit: You are failing the 10,000ft View. So hard, it is likely purposeful.


So we are clear, I am not attacking you or your Point of View (though I do find that to be outmoded and nearly humorously simplistic). Rather, I just think you ought to know how obvious you are coming off as. . .


BN747 wrote:

Not only that, his tales of living in all these places and all this experience and yet he has the understanding of American Political history as a gnat in a coma.

BN747


It is possible for that to be an actual thing. But it is so vanishingly rare, that we essentially have to go with a Troubleshooting Philosophy here.

When you hear hoofs, look for Horses first, then Zebras.


Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Cool story, bro. Interesting to be in the industry and avoid posting to the Middle East or South Asia.


Thats unavoidable for the future, why the questions?


I’m in HR, investigation is kind of my thing. If something smells, there’s usually a reason.


Indeed. I do not work in HR, per se, but I do have a good deal of hire/fire in my recent CVs. Interviewing and the associated research was always something I enjoyed.

There actually are people who can competently lie as easy as breathing. Though that (supposedly) represents less than 5% of the population, even the more seasoned habitual bullshitters have a hard time keeping their stories believable once a long enough view is taken.

As a tangent, I was actually truly impressed by an individual one time. But this guy? Online, with all the resources of Google available to at least help out with some details?

Bush League... One day, maybe.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:22 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

This is what the intellectual fascism does, tries to scare people into silence.

Not going to happen.


Seriously dude, it’s not getting any better. ‘Fascism’ doesn’t mean what you think it does. Fascism is *forced* suppression of ideals and ideas by an authoritarian state, usually extreme left or right wing. Nothing remotely close to that going on here - no desaparesidos or executions whatsoever. If you think people pointing out obvious flaws in your reasoning and knowledge is fascism, you definitely haven’t seen as much of the world as claimed.


Dude instead of debating you are using these tactics, howcome you dont address the subject directly?


No ‘tactics’ - I simply don’t accept BS, and approach almost everything with logic, that’s all. So far you have not shown interest in ‘debate’ - debate involves listening to other positions, responding on the merits to points previously made, clearly delineating between fact and supposition. Show where you have done so, without non sequitur or whataboutism.
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seb146
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:07 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Gotta attack the messenger when there arent any good arguments


‘Good arguments’ is rich coming from an endless litany of logical fallacies - false dilemma, false equivalency, red herrings, appeals to emotion and authority...virtually all of your replies are non sequitur. How does a claimed adult expect to be taken seriously when never listening to reason?

‘Fake news’, ‘I’m sure’, ‘to me’, and ‘what about XYZ’ are not valid responses to specific questions, and never will be.


This is what the intellectual fascism does, tries to scare people into silence.

Not going to happen.


DEMOCRAT PARTY SOCIALISTS! Look at this picture of Pelosi and Schumer in Muzzlim clothes!! They are terrorists!!! The democrat party hates minorities because they had minorities running for office!! Look at those hateful anti-American democrats!!!

you mean like that?
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
jetero
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:09 am

Now, now seb, I’m sure OP is a moderate, so we shouldn’t restrict his (her?) (it?) (they?) (x?) freedom of speech. You never know, x could even be a member of a womyn’s book club.
 
jetero
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:14 am

I think I count 32 posts out of about 80 from this new member of the community. Still not sure what the point is, but I’m sure she (her?) will get better with time. We just need to hear him (it?) out. This is a safe space, 99, help us understand!
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:16 am

NIKV69 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
The phenomenon I'm most worried about in American politics is populism, on both sides. It's divisive and puts Americans against each other in a way that is not just merely competitive. It gives people a "you're either for us or against us" mentality. It involves heavy scapegoating and hollows out the country's political middle. You can't be a centrist anymore, you're either a conservative or a liberal. If you don't support Trump but are a conservative it doesn't matter, you're a pariah in your own party.

When a populist candidate wins, fulfilling campaign promises involves abusing the scapegoated populations which gives their support base some twisted sadistic pleasure. You're seeing it with Trump supporters, who cheer for people being hurt. Just random people, as long as they don't support Trump. Bernie is also a populist candidate, I worry what might happen with him too. His supporters are just as rabid and mean spirited as Trump supporters.


This goes back to putting too much emphasis on the bases (Who are fringe) and totally disregarding the middle of the electorate. The media is a big driver of this and it's why we can't get anything done. I don't want rich people taxed at 70% but I don't feel they should be taxed very low either but automatically if I don't agree with the Robert Reich CNN talking point I am for giving the rich a free ride on taxes. It never gets to the discussion of what is fair.

Same with guns and immigration. If you are for any sort of gun ownership and don't agree with banning all guns you are a crazy NRA guy who wants no gun laws. If you want to see any sort of border control you are automatically a racist who hates Hispanics. It's this insanity that got Trump elected because the middle of the electorate will speak and vote they way they want. They have obviously been saying they don't want the high tax, nanny state open border utopia but instead of listening they get branded at far right whacks that listened to Russia and are ignored, hence Trump wins the election.

We need to take a long hard look at the media and how it's trying to control society. They are more of a threat than this Russia disinformation bunk we have been pedaled for three years.


The rich and corporations have too much influence on decision making. I'm pretty sure restoring the balance would be to bring back old campaign finance regulation and actually empower the FEC to enforce it. We can't have a rational conversation on a national level on ANY issue with so much noise coming from political groups from all directions. That's where the conversation should be starting, fair taxation instead of politically motivated taxation should follow.

The Gun issue, both sides are loud and disingenuous and I wish they'd STFU until they get their facts straight enough to have a conversation with each other. The debate itself pisses me off so much because no one is discussing it in a way that actually accomplishes anything except a shouting match of people BSing each other. It's just a stupid political wedge issue and the dissemination of non-truths is intentional for the sake of politically dividing people for partisan leverage.
 
NIKV69
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:48 am

Tugger wrote:
Without going into everything, I will note that NOT buying into "the media" on it, the Russia disinformation effort and actions are very real. And it is very much a threat and important to be aware of and work to protect our systems from. (Don't know any easy way to do that. I just have to go and independently review and verify a lot of things.)

Tugg


Threat how? You really think posting things on facebook and social media is any different from what our media does? Look the lar left doesn't want you to know this but the people in the middle that decide the president were not swayed by Russia. If you want to believe this excuse as to why Hillary lost go right ahead but trust me Hillary was losing no matter what and unless something drastically changes Trump will carry the same states this November. High taxes, class warfare and open borders is a losing doctrine and the Dem party is so hijacked by the fringe they may never make it back to the middle.

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
We need to take a long hard look at the media and how it's trying to control society. They are more of a threat than this Russia disinformation bunk we have been pedaled for three years.


Especially the media outlets screaming about democrat socialist policies and calling every non-Republican candidate socialist and interchanging "democrat" and "socialist".


From what I have seen the only ones being called Socialist is Bernie and AOC who are self described socialists. Who else is being called socialist? Please post examples and don't do your usual run around the hedge.
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
Redd
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:20 pm

mbmbos wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Disgusted? Saying I am white vote for me because I am like you is what led to the holocaust! Using your race for a political means is disgusting on the left or the right. Period.



This is called a straw man argument as well as false equivalency.

It is a straw man because you are putting words in the mouths of people who seek equality for all people that do not represent their argument

You might want to sharpen your logic and your argumentation skills before making a statement.


You might want to look up hypocrisy having had just posted this

mbmbos wrote:
Are you against fairness for all groups? Do you wish not acknowledge there is disparity in the way people are treated and the liberties they are afforded.

Let's be honest.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:18 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Seriously dude, it’s not getting any better. ‘Fascism’ doesn’t mean what you think it does. Fascism is *forced* suppression of ideals and ideas by an authoritarian state, usually extreme left or right wing. Nothing remotely close to that going on here - no desaparesidos or executions whatsoever. If you think people pointing out obvious flaws in your reasoning and knowledge is fascism, you definitely haven’t seen as much of the world as claimed.


Dude instead of debating you are using these tactics, howcome you dont address the subject directly?


No ‘tactics’ - I simply don’t accept BS, and approach almost everything with logic, that’s all. So far you have not shown interest in ‘debate’ - debate involves listening to other positions, responding on the merits to points previously made, clearly delineating between fact and supposition. Show where you have done so, without non sequitur or whataboutism.


Oh sure, you need to find something along the lines of 'lying' 'X-phobic' or 'intellectually deficient arguments' for a debate on something we all can agree its difficult to talk about because most on the left have used. But shutting down the others and leaving an echo chamber of people saying the same thing is better.

Turns out as I said, this destructive behavior of Identity politics is hurting really bad the democrats.

So according to liberal/left leaning standards, most democratic primary voters are racist, because they did not prefer to vote for an African American or Latino, that's why there aren't any contenders? that's the standard that was set when Trump won the White house and many of them said that he won because "America is racist". And it was a disgrace that white women voted for Trump instead of Hillary.

When held to the same standards, you need to deflect and talk about tweets and smear campaigns on the left. But no. Even among them they each use the tactics, accusing Biden of racist. And most recently accusing Sanders of sexism for allegedly telling Warren a woman can't win in 2020.

This is the dangerous games you folks on the left are playing and is biting hard on you, or not. I know you will try to attack me for saying, but that's what we are seeing right now.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:20 pm

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Cool story, bro. Interesting to be in the industry and avoid posting to the Middle East or South Asia.


Thats unavoidable for the future, why the questions?


These are because you appear to be lying. The reasons for that include -but not limited to- the fact that your claims emerge only to counter very rational questioning of your points of view.

To wit: You are failing the 10,000ft View. So hard, it is likely purposeful.


So we are clear, I am not attacking you or your Point of View (though I do find that to be outmoded and nearly humorously simplistic). Rather, I just think you ought to know how obvious you are coming off as. . .


BN747 wrote:

Not only that, his tales of living in all these places and all this experience and yet he has the understanding of American Political history as a gnat in a coma.

BN747


It is possible for that to be an actual thing. But it is so vanishingly rare, that we essentially have to go with a Troubleshooting Philosophy here.

When you hear hoofs, look for Horses first, then Zebras.


Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Thats unavoidable for the future, why the questions?


I’m in HR, investigation is kind of my thing. If something smells, there’s usually a reason.


Indeed. I do not work in HR, per se, but I do have a good deal of hire/fire in my recent CVs. Interviewing and the associated research was always something I enjoyed.

There actually are people who can competently lie as easy as breathing. Though that (supposedly) represents less than 5% of the population, even the more seasoned habitual bullshitters have a hard time keeping their stories believable once a long enough view is taken.

As a tangent, I was actually truly impressed by an individual one time. But this guy? Online, with all the resources of Google available to at least help out with some details?

Bush League... One day, maybe.


So many words and personal attacks but not a mention of the topic of 'identity politics'. I know its a very complex and difficult subject for the left to discuss.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:38 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Oh sure, you need to find something along the lines of 'lying' 'X-phobic' or 'intellectually deficient arguments' for a debate on something we all can agree its difficult to talk about because most on the left have used. But shutting down the others and leaving an echo chamber of people saying the same thing is better.


I simply asked you to show where you have actually demonstrated interest in real debate - by responding to points made, and not using non sequitur or whataboutism. You replied without a single example and when on with more non sequitur. I'll take that as an admission that you can't. They are not 'intellectually deficient' arguments - they are just illogical and thus make no sense.

And nobody said 'an echo chamber is better' - you invented that all by yourself. If I'm wrong, find the quote. Have a look at the Oakland thread and many others, you'll see there's a range of views and nobody calling for an echo chamber. Hint: reality is not only the things happening in your own head.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:41 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Oh sure, you need to find something along the lines of 'lying' 'X-phobic' or 'intellectually deficient arguments' for a debate on something we all can agree its difficult to talk about because most on the left have used. But shutting down the others and leaving an echo chamber of people saying the same thing is better.


I simply asked you to show where you have actually demonstrated interest in real debate - by responding to points made, and not using non sequitur or whataboutism. You replied without a single example and when on with more non sequitur. I'll take that as an admission that you can't. They are not 'intellectually deficient' arguments - they are just illogical and thus make no sense.

And nobody said 'an echo chamber is better' - you invented that all by yourself. If I'm wrong, find the quote. Have a look at the Oakland thread and many others, you'll see there's a range of views and nobody calling for an echo chamber. Hint: reality is not only the things happening in your own head.


Well for starters, many here try to find issues on me personally rather than what I say by labeling me a 'troll' or whatever. I honestly don't care, I know you folks prefer to talk to each other, but I would have at least liked to talk to you or any others in this topic the same way we spoke on the "Iranian general killed' subject, which appeared to have more takers than this subject.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:47 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Oh sure, you need to find something along the lines of 'lying' 'X-phobic' or 'intellectually deficient arguments' for a debate on something we all can agree its difficult to talk about because most on the left have used. But shutting down the others and leaving an echo chamber of people saying the same thing is better.


I simply asked you to show where you have actually demonstrated interest in real debate - by responding to points made, and not using non sequitur or whataboutism. You replied without a single example and when on with more non sequitur. I'll take that as an admission that you can't. They are not 'intellectually deficient' arguments - they are just illogical and thus make no sense.

And nobody said 'an echo chamber is better' - you invented that all by yourself. If I'm wrong, find the quote. Have a look at the Oakland thread and many others, you'll see there's a range of views and nobody calling for an echo chamber. Hint: reality is not only the things happening in your own head.


Well for starters, many here try to find issues on me personally rather than what I say by labeling me a 'troll' or whatever. I honestly don't care, I know you folks prefer to talk to each other, but I would have at least liked to talk to you or any others in this topic the same way we spoke on the "Iranian general killed' subject, which appeared to have more takers than this subject.


Then try staying on topic, and responding directly to points previously made - on the merits, that's what a discussion and debate typically features. If you bring up something loosely related, provide a source or citation that shows the connection others can reference. Introducing three or four new, unsourced, and often unrelated points just makes people think you're playing games - and here's another friendly hint: the vast majority of adults don't want to talk to people like that.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mbmbos
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:48 pm

Redd wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Disgusted? Saying I am white vote for me because I am like you is what led to the holocaust! Using your race for a political means is disgusting on the left or the right. Period.



This is called a straw man argument as well as false equivalency.

It is a straw man because you are putting words in the mouths of people who seek equality for all people that do not represent their argument

You might want to sharpen your logic and your argumentation skills before making a statement.


You might want to look up hypocrisy having had just posted this

mbmbos wrote:
Are you against fairness for all groups? Do you wish not acknowledge there is disparity in the way people are treated and the liberties they are afforded.

Let's be honest.


If you think I'm being hypocritical, then answer the questions.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:53 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

I simply asked you to show where you have actually demonstrated interest in real debate - by responding to points made, and not using non sequitur or whataboutism. You replied without a single example and when on with more non sequitur. I'll take that as an admission that you can't. They are not 'intellectually deficient' arguments - they are just illogical and thus make no sense.

And nobody said 'an echo chamber is better' - you invented that all by yourself. If I'm wrong, find the quote. Have a look at the Oakland thread and many others, you'll see there's a range of views and nobody calling for an echo chamber. Hint: reality is not only the things happening in your own head.


Well for starters, many here try to find issues on me personally rather than what I say by labeling me a 'troll' or whatever. I honestly don't care, I know you folks prefer to talk to each other, but I would have at least liked to talk to you or any others in this topic the same way we spoke on the "Iranian general killed' subject, which appeared to have more takers than this subject.


Then try staying on topic, and responding directly to points previously made - on the merits, that's what a discussion and debate typically features. If you bring up something loosely related, provide a source or citation that shows the connection others can reference. Introducing three or four new, unsourced, and often unrelated points just makes people think you're playing games - and here's another friendly hint: the vast majority of adults don't want to talk to people like that.


Right, so what's un-sourced? 'unrelated? of what I have posted. Still many postings in this topic and you fail to talk about this subject, and it continues. You keep proving my point, its a difficult subject, yet you are more comfortable in hitting Trump for the killing of the general but you fail to even defend or say anything about how this identity politics game is played.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
LCDFlight
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:08 pm

BN747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
LCDFlight wrote:

Oh brother, here come the people saying America is morally inferior to other countries, especially for marginalized people. I talked to a guy a couple weeks ago who was once sold as SLAVE for $160 to work on a fishing boat off Thailand (he is from Burma and was stuck in the Thai refugee camps). Here, his family is safe and he has 1-2 kids in the military, and still travels back to Thailand for tourism. He holds a US passport, after coming as a refugee. I wonder if we could ask him if he feels marginalized by the US. I wonder if people would listen to him or they just keep repeating what the elite professional media told them about justice.

There is a difference between imaginary problems and real problems. People in Syria, Venezuela, Burma have real problems. Our life is like a paradise.


Yep, the role of the left is to continuously find 'problems' to tell us how bad we are doing and how bad we were. Unless they can never be elected. Then find us and tell us that we are victims..


And BOTH of you two are exactly why the ignorance of the past (America's horrific beginnings) will live in the future.

Since you TWO geniuses of all things politics are far worse than any cherry-picking Bible thumper. At least they know the bad parts of the Bible are there - somewhere but they make sure to avoid those passages.

You guys, you unique group of 'politically juiced up Americans' hate the bad history that is America's past, you hate it when people discuss it, you hate hearing others discuss it, you hate it all ..period and just one or two reasons. (should you classify yourselves as sane).

Like all conservatives, the nature of your politics is cemented in a 'worry about me first' mentality followed up by my wife, family and those like me - full stop!
Dividing and making enemies of everyone else comes easy as making toast for that mindset.

American conservatives aren't the first to hold that view, but Americans certainly have taken it to a religious cult-like level, they really mean everyone (Dems, the Chinese, brown-skinned Undocumented (they call them illegal aliens), Arabs (except the rich Saudis, only the RICH Saudis), the Iranians, soon to be the Iraqis and there has been a labeling of this nature since day one. And on day one (actually was American brand Slavery)... since that divide all the efforts to confront, address and atone for it's past wrongs is met by virulent resistance at every turn...by people like you, both of you as well as the others on this board that I've done those tango with. Plenty of denials...but no factual refuting of any kind.

The second reason is simple. You don't care. You don't know and it's not important. You people like to just jump into 1950's America's Leave it to Beaver days, everything was perfect and everyone happy to be Americans - end of story.

How on this Earth can you two people convince yourselves (let alone anyone else) that you know the course/actions best to be taken by America (charting it's future) when you intentionally choose to ignore, dismiss disrespect and dishonor it's factual past/history? How?

America did not start then and it has an interwoven link with it's sordid history and no matter how hard you try, you cannot separate it or deny it.

You great defenders of America, most likely never served in the military and yet you're so gung-ho America...which America?

Certainly not the one based on the US Constitution!
Because if you did, you WOULD have huge issues with this administration pimping our Troops to Saudi Arabia for cash.
You'd have a problem with chicken-shit leader publicly attacked American War heroes and veterans - alive and dead.
You'd have a problem with a leader abusing the courts systems and disrespecting members of the Judiciary based solely on their race.

During the Obama years you toughed it out by 'critiquing his policies'..which in dog whistle speak is racist vitriolic abuse disguised as 'criticism' and luckily for those of us who care about the prosperity of America and it's vision of a greater version of itself...know that it cannot be achieved by being led by an Pathological Lying Sociopath.

So what LCDFlight, you met one single struggling guy from SE Asia (I've live all over that region) and have feelings about his struggle - that makes you an expert of international struggles, huh?

Try experiencing a few 100s more (it's called living life and mix it up a bit re:races) then come share what you've learned because with that millie nillie story it just isn't anything at all.

BN747


Yes, America has really bad things in its history. This is part of being human. No country is without a long history of injustice and murder. We have plenty. Unusually, we also have a substantial history of Justice and saving lives.

Life is a mixture of good and bad things, and then you die. To focus on the bad in today’s American life is some sort of psychological tragedy, a tragic misuse of your time imho. For most of human history, life was much harder and injustice much more violent, much more cruel.

For what it’s worth, I was fine with Obama, liked him.
 
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:56 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Well for starters, many here try to find issues on me personally rather than what I say by labeling me a 'troll' or whatever. I honestly don't care, I know you folks prefer to talk to each other, but I would have at least liked to talk to you or any others in this topic the same way we spoke on the "Iranian general killed' subject, which appeared to have more takers than this subject.


Then try staying on topic, and responding directly to points previously made - on the merits, that's what a discussion and debate typically features. If you bring up something loosely related, provide a source or citation that shows the connection others can reference. Introducing three or four new, unsourced, and often unrelated points just makes people think you're playing games - and here's another friendly hint: the vast majority of adults don't want to talk to people like that.


Right, so what's un-sourced? 'unrelated? of what I have posted. Still many postings in this topic and you fail to talk about this subject, and it continues. You keep proving my point, its a difficult subject, yet you are more comfortable in hitting Trump for the killing of the general but you fail to even defend or say anything about how this identity politics game is played.


There are numerous facts available showing how and why killing Soleimani was unwise and outside the scope of AUMF. There is nothing to really say for me about identity politics per se that hasn’t been said - if you say it is abhorrent in all forms, that’s a reasonable position. If so though, you should criticize equally on left and right. I only saw you talking about Dems, so I introduced 45’s Muslim tweet today and the ongoing Stephen Miller saga for balance.

As to the larger issue of whether identity politics has any bearing on political success or failure, data seems unclear on that. There are a lot of variables and related issues, and it would be hard to sift through the noise.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:07 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Then try staying on topic, and responding directly to points previously made - on the merits, that's what a discussion and debate typically features. If you bring up something loosely related, provide a source or citation that shows the connection others can reference. Introducing three or four new, unsourced, and often unrelated points just makes people think you're playing games - and here's another friendly hint: the vast majority of adults don't want to talk to people like that.


Right, so what's un-sourced? 'unrelated? of what I have posted. Still many postings in this topic and you fail to talk about this subject, and it continues. You keep proving my point, its a difficult subject, yet you are more comfortable in hitting Trump for the killing of the general but you fail to even defend or say anything about how this identity politics game is played.


There are numerous facts available showing how and why killing Soleimani was unwise and outside the scope of AUMF. There is nothing to really say for me about identity politics per se that hasn’t been said - if you say it is abhorrent in all forms, that’s a reasonable position. If so though, you should criticize equally on left and right. I only saw you talking about Dems, so I introduced 45’s Muslim tweet today and the ongoing Stephen Miller saga for balance.

As to the larger issue of whether identity politics has any bearing on political success or failure, data seems unclear on that. There are a lot of variables and related issues, and it would be hard to sift through the noise.


Fair enough, what you posted about Stephen Miller and and a Muslim tweet is not identity politics. Those tweets are not used to sway an identity group to vote for a certain identity group. IT seems to me it was a joke or a meme to highlight how those Dem's seem to be Sympathetic to the Mullahs in Iran. We can debate that's not true, or false, but that's not identity politics.

As I said from the beginning, utilizing your race/gender as a way to get votes or support, that's identity politics. Have I seen Donald Trump say vote for me because I am a man and I am white? nope, and if he does that he will be called out racist by everyone. If democrat X says vote for me because the GOP will put you in chains, that's identity politics too. To say vote for me because I am a woman, that's identity politics, vote for me because I am Latino, that's identity politics.

There is ample of data to show that this game has been used mostly by democrats, have Republicans used it? yes, but they have been called out immediately by everyone.
The fallout of the exit of Booker from the primaries is a huge example of why this game can't be played, because eventually people vote or prefer candidates on substance, character, ideas. Not color of anyone's skin.

Elizabeth Warren is using it now again Bernie, but she has used this constantly, even when she said she was of "Native American" heritage, that floped. Now is the woman's card.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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seb146
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:47 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Right, so what's un-sourced? 'unrelated? of what I have posted. Still many postings in this topic and you fail to talk about this subject, and it continues. You keep proving my point, its a difficult subject, yet you are more comfortable in hitting Trump for the killing of the general but you fail to even defend or say anything about how this identity politics game is played.


There are numerous facts available showing how and why killing Soleimani was unwise and outside the scope of AUMF. There is nothing to really say for me about identity politics per se that hasn’t been said - if you say it is abhorrent in all forms, that’s a reasonable position. If so though, you should criticize equally on left and right. I only saw you talking about Dems, so I introduced 45’s Muslim tweet today and the ongoing Stephen Miller saga for balance.

As to the larger issue of whether identity politics has any bearing on political success or failure, data seems unclear on that. There are a lot of variables and related issues, and it would be hard to sift through the noise.


Fair enough, what you posted about Stephen Miller and and a Muslim tweet is not identity politics. Those tweets are not used to sway an identity group to vote for a certain identity group. IT seems to me it was a joke or a meme to highlight how those Dem's seem to be Sympathetic to the Mullahs in Iran. We can debate that's not true, or false, but that's not identity politics.

As I said from the beginning, utilizing your race/gender as a way to get votes or support, that's identity politics. Have I seen Donald Trump say vote for me because I am a man and I am white? nope, and if he does that he will be called out racist by everyone. If democrat X says vote for me because the GOP will put you in chains, that's identity politics too. To say vote for me because I am a woman, that's identity politics, vote for me because I am Latino, that's identity politics.

There is ample of data to show that this game has been used mostly by democrats, have Republicans used it? yes, but they have been called out immediately by everyone.
The fallout of the exit of Booker from the primaries is a huge example of why this game can't be played, because eventually people vote or prefer candidates on substance, character, ideas. Not color of anyone's skin.

Elizabeth Warren is using it now again Bernie, but she has used this constantly, even when she said she was of "Native American" heritage, that floped. Now is the woman's card.


The only people I have seen making a big deal about race is the lame stream right wing media. We Democrats who have to decide really do not care at all. But, the lame stream right wing media is going nuts over this. Talk to any Democratic voter and they will all tell you the same thing: My personal choice is (candidate) but I will support the eventual nominee, whoever that is.
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Tugger
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:02 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Unlike you on the left who

Right there. You are all about identity politics. Identity is not solely race and sex "identity" is who and how you see yourself and how you see others. You identity is "conservative" (whatever that actually in fact is) and you "identify" all those that are "not you" as "the left" or "wrong" or unthinking or whatever you choose to reduce and minimize what "they" are.

And you are full of it then. We are all somewhat left and right and conservative and liberal and approving of some people and disapproving of some people etc. To label yourself politically and constantly dump everyone "else" (not you, not your identity) into a category you claim is not your, is by demonstration identity politics.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:07 pm

Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Unlike you on the left who

Right there. You are all about identity politics. Identity is not solely race and sex "identity" is who and how you see yourself and how you see others. You identity is "conservative" (whatever that actually in fact is) and you "identify" all those that are "not you" as "the left" or "wrong" or unthinking or whatever you choose to reduce and minimize what "they" are.

And you are full of it then. We are all somewhat left and right and conservative and liberal and approving of some people and disapproving of some people etc. To label yourself politically and constantly dump everyone "else" (not you, not your identity) into a category you claim is not your, is by demonstration identity politics.

Tugg


"Identity" is not about ideas, again I have said this many times, its about your personal identity, for example Race or sex.

Conservative or Liberal are political philosophies/ideologies. Not Identity politics.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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seb146
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:11 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Unlike you on the left who

Right there. You are all about identity politics. Identity is not solely race and sex "identity" is who and how you see yourself and how you see others. You identity is "conservative" (whatever that actually in fact is) and you "identify" all those that are "not you" as "the left" or "wrong" or unthinking or whatever you choose to reduce and minimize what "they" are.

And you are full of it then. We are all somewhat left and right and conservative and liberal and approving of some people and disapproving of some people etc. To label yourself politically and constantly dump everyone "else" (not you, not your identity) into a category you claim is not your, is by demonstration identity politics.

Tugg


"Identity" is not about ideas, again I have said this many times, its about your personal identity, for example Race or sex.

Conservative or Liberal are political philosophies/ideologies. Not Identity politics.


And Republicans/conservatives have turned race and sex into political philosophies and ideologies. Look at the outrage by Republicans in trying to extend marriage to all consenting adults. A group of Republicans just got together and decided to work toward overturning Roe v. Wade. Republicans pushing their brand of Christianity on school children. Republicans and their love of the Confederacy. That is the Republican party identity. Hate women, hate gays, hate minorities, hate other religions.
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Tugger
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Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:17 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Unlike you on the left who

Right there. You are all about identity politics. Identity is not solely race and sex "identity" is who and how you see yourself and how you see others. You identity is "conservative" (whatever that actually in fact is) and you "identify" all those that are "not you" as "the left" or "wrong" or unthinking or whatever you choose to reduce and minimize what "they" are.

And you are full of it then. We are all somewhat left and right and conservative and liberal and approving of some people and disapproving of some people etc. To label yourself politically and constantly dump everyone "else" (not you, not your identity) into a category you claim is not your, is by demonstration identity politics.

Tugg


"Identity" is not about ideas, again I have said this many times, its about your personal identity, for example Race or sex.

Conservative or Liberal are political philosophies/ideologies. Not Identity politics.

Wrong. You can pretend all you want and try to limit to you imagined, for the purposes and defense of this thread, but just so yuo know:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/identity
identity - noun

iden·​ti·​ty | \ ī-ˈden-tə-tē H
plural identities
Definition of identity

1a : the distinguishing character or personality of an individual : individuality
b : the relation established by psychological identification
2 : the condition of being the same with something described or asserted establish the identity of stolen goods
3a : sameness of essential or generic character in different instances
b : sameness in all that constitutes the objective reality of a thing : oneness


Identity is a very big and very real thing. Humans are about their minds, more than their physical self. It is why we are human. And what you think, what you know as your identity, is probably the most important thing you "have". Race is part of it. Sexuality is part of it. But so are many other factors.

If you want to change the thread to just discuss "racial politics" or "sex in politics" then you need to be clear about that. Identity is more.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Redd
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Identity Politics in America

Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:33 pm

mbmbos wrote:
Redd wrote:
mbmbos wrote:


This is called a straw man argument as well as false equivalency.

It is a straw man because you are putting words in the mouths of people who seek equality for all people that do not represent their argument

You might want to sharpen your logic and your argumentation skills before making a statement.


You might want to look up hypocrisy having had just posted this

mbmbos wrote:
Are you against fairness for all groups? Do you wish not acknowledge there is disparity in the way people are treated and the liberties they are afforded.

Let's be honest.


If you think I'm being hypocritical, then answer the questions.


I'm not having a discussion with you on this topic, nor do I really want to. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy. Accusing someone of a straw man argument, after just using a straw man argument gets no one anywhere.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Identity Politics in America

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:23 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Right, so what's un-sourced? 'unrelated? of what I have posted. Still many postings in this topic and you fail to talk about this subject, and it continues. You keep proving my point, its a difficult subject, yet you are more comfortable in hitting Trump for the killing of the general but you fail to even defend or say anything about how this identity politics game is played.


There are numerous facts available showing how and why killing Soleimani was unwise and outside the scope of AUMF. There is nothing to really say for me about identity politics per se that hasn’t been said - if you say it is abhorrent in all forms, that’s a reasonable position. If so though, you should criticize equally on left and right. I only saw you talking about Dems, so I introduced 45’s Muslim tweet today and the ongoing Stephen Miller saga for balance.

As to the larger issue of whether identity politics has any bearing on political success or failure, data seems unclear on that. There are a lot of variables and related issues, and it would be hard to sift through the noise.


Fair enough, what you posted about Stephen Miller and and a Muslim tweet is not identity politics. Those tweets are not used to sway an identity group to vote for a certain identity group.


Failing the 10,000-foot vantage point again. ‘Identity’ means more than you think it does, as was already pointed out to you by others. Wisdom is a choice.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Topic Author
Posts: 174
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Identity Politics in America

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:55 am

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

There are numerous facts available showing how and why killing Soleimani was unwise and outside the scope of AUMF. There is nothing to really say for me about identity politics per se that hasn’t been said - if you say it is abhorrent in all forms, that’s a reasonable position. If so though, you should criticize equally on left and right. I only saw you talking about Dems, so I introduced 45’s Muslim tweet today and the ongoing Stephen Miller saga for balance.

As to the larger issue of whether identity politics has any bearing on political success or failure, data seems unclear on that. There are a lot of variables and related issues, and it would be hard to sift through the noise.


Fair enough, what you posted about Stephen Miller and and a Muslim tweet is not identity politics. Those tweets are not used to sway an identity group to vote for a certain identity group.


Failing the 10,000-foot vantage point again. ‘Identity’ means more than you think it does, as was already pointed out to you by others. Wisdom is a choice.


You seemed to agree with Tucker Carlson on the Iran stuff, here he is talking about Identity politics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6psnbAXeiBE

I suppose you won't agree with him on this?
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10253
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Identity Politics in America

Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:59 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Fair enough, what you posted about Stephen Miller and and a Muslim tweet is not identity politics. Those tweets are not used to sway an identity group to vote for a certain identity group.


Failing the 10,000-foot vantage point again. ‘Identity’ means more than you think it does, as was already pointed out to you by others. Wisdom is a choice.


You seemed to agree with Tucker Carlson on the Iran stuff, here he is talking about Identity politics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6psnbAXeiBE

I suppose you won't agree with him on this?


No, and anyway he’s nakedly using that topic for ratings. You can tell the difference in his fake and genuine outrage between the two topics. He was more factual and less over the top about Iran.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 21224
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: Identity Politics in America

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:07 am

Redd wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
Redd wrote:

You might want to look up hypocrisy having had just posted this



If you think I'm being hypocritical, then answer the questions.


I'm not having a discussion with you on this topic, nor do I really want to. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy. Accusing someone of a straw man argument, after just using a straw man argument gets no one anywhere.


Republicans constantly use the "our identity is under attack" argument to get their base ginned up. Identity politics. Just like Democrats use "your rights are being taken away" argument to get their base ginned up. Problem is, the "Republican identity" is not nor has ever been under attack. Granting equality to various Americans is not attacking rights of white evangelical heterosexuals. Republicans twist it to be but it is not. THIS is the discussion we must have.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
Redd
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

Re: Identity Politics in America

Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:20 am

seb146 wrote:
Redd wrote:
mbmbos wrote:

If you think I'm being hypocritical, then answer the questions.


I'm not having a discussion with you on this topic, nor do I really want to. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy. Accusing someone of a straw man argument, after just using a straw man argument gets no one anywhere.


Republicans constantly use the "our identity is under attack" argument to get their base ginned up. Identity politics. Just like Democrats use "your rights are being taken away" argument to get their base ginned up. Problem is, the "Republican identity" is not nor has ever been under attack. Granting equality to various Americans is not attacking rights of white evangelical heterosexuals. Republicans twist it to be but it is not. THIS is the discussion we must have.


I know you probably won't agree, and that's fine, but as I see it, both sides are playing exactly the same games. Every group wants to blame their own shortfalls and problems on another group, and in the case of America, from an outside point of view, women, African Americans, homosexuals, new genderfluid unicorns, Hispanics all blame the white Christian hetero male. No one want's to take any ownership for anything any more. It's pathetic. Now, I will agree that some men who belong to that group are a cause of historical and current problems, but the other hundred or so million are probably getting sick and tired of being portrayed as the devil for everyone else's problems.

Any issue a white man raises, just about any man really, is attacked by the left like an angry swarm of infuriated wasps, and then the left is perplexed as to why Trump is president...Trump is president because the extreme left has vilified men, especially white Christian men into putting up a big middle finger and voting for Trump.

Trying to find people who take ownership for their own shortfalls is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
 
User avatar
mbmbos
Posts: 2872
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

Re: Identity Politics in America

Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:57 pm

Redd wrote:
mbmbos wrote:
Redd wrote:

You might want to look up hypocrisy having had just posted this



If you think I'm being hypocritical, then answer the questions.


I'm not having a discussion with you on this topic, nor do I really want to. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy. Accusing someone of a straw man argument, after just using a straw man argument gets no one anywhere.


"I'm not going to have a discussion with you but I'm going to have the last word."

You're transparent. Grow up.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke
 
User avatar
mbmbos
Posts: 2872
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 4:16 am

Re: Identity Politics in America

Wed Jan 15, 2020 2:07 pm

Redd wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Redd wrote:

I'm not having a discussion with you on this topic, nor do I really want to. I was just pointing out your hypocrisy. Accusing someone of a straw man argument, after just using a straw man argument gets no one anywhere.


Republicans constantly use the "our identity is under attack" argument to get their base ginned up. Identity politics. Just like Democrats use "your rights are being taken away" argument to get their base ginned up. Problem is, the "Republican identity" is not nor has ever been under attack. Granting equality to various Americans is not attacking rights of white evangelical heterosexuals. Republicans twist it to be but it is not. THIS is the discussion we must have.


I know you probably won't agree, and that's fine, but as I see it, both sides are playing exactly the same games. Every group wants to blame their own shortfalls and problems on another group, and in the case of America, from an outside point of view, women, African Americans, homosexuals, new genderfluid unicorns, Hispanics all blame the white Christian hetero male. No one want's to take any ownership for anything any more. It's pathetic. Now, I will agree that some men who belong to that group are a cause of historical and current problems, but the other hundred or so million are probably getting sick and tired of being portrayed as the devil for everyone else's problems.

Any issue a white man raises, just about any man really, is attacked by the left like an angry swarm of infuriated wasps, and then the left is perplexed as to why Trump is president...Trump is president because the extreme left has vilified men, especially white Christian men into putting up a big middle finger and voting for Trump.

Trying to find people who take ownership for their own shortfalls is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.



I find it stunning when white men feel aggrieved when others seek equality and equal access to resources and power. Talk about lack of self-awareness.
"If I don't manage to fly, someone else will. The spirit wants only for there to be flying. As for who happens to do it, in that he has only a passing interest."
- R.M. Rilke

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