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M564038
Posts: 371
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:23 am

Ok Waterbomber.

You need to understand 2 things.

1/You are not an expert. People, you included, should not be listening to hou, but to the experts.

2/You are stockpiling, and is making supplies a problem. Without you, supplies wouldn’t be a problem.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
So which is which?

I've doctors saying that only those who are sick should wear surgical masks, and that those who are not sick shouldn't wear masks as it will increase the risk of getting sick. And then we have people here saying people should wear masks.


I think that is just messaging to manage the shortage of masks. One logic I heard, if consumers hoard all the masks, medical professionals may face a shortage, that theory seems to far fetched because every country will have strategic reserves.

If you are in a crowded place you should wear a mask and gloves.

I would like to hear back from the IATA doctor who told masks are absolute waste and viruses won't survive on hard surfaces.


We already covered this earlier on in this thread.

It's shameful that our medical professionals didn't see this coming and didn't secure masks, and now resort to telling people to not protect themselves so they can protect themselves.

I don't earn as much as a doctor but I was able to allocate a budget and secure a decent stash of respirator masks FFP2/FFP3 early on because I had my eyes and ears open. I could also secure half face masks and full face masks.
Now I hear doctors complaining that they only have a small stock and then show on TV a couple of useless surgical masks lying in a medical cabinet. So doctors clearly are not well informed about the type of masks that is required for this kind of intervention, nor do they seem to have the interest to keep updated about major medical threats. Politicians and medical professionals are now falsely claiming that masks don't help and could even make infection more likely which is uter b*%%£+*, because they want to secure their supply.
I'm now considering donating some of that stash to medical professionals in hard hit area's, althoug I feel ridiculous to have to babysit doctors who earn more than I do and were complacent at best.

N95, N100, FFP2 and FFP3 respirator masks will provide very good to excellent protection from inhalation of airborne particles that could carry the virus.
On top of that, eye protection may be advisable. Your swimming goggles could do, but you also have bigger goggles.
Even with these you may still interface with the virus, but the quantity of virus will be so insignificant that your body will be able to repell it very swiftly before it can multiply so that it doesn't lead to an infection.

So if you can find respirator masks, just buy them and protect yourself and your family.
Don't buy them to leave them on the shelf "just in case", because we are already fully in the "just in case" scenario.
Don't waste your money on surgical masks, they don't cut your exposure enough to justify the discomfort of wearing them.

By the way, Belgium ordered masks from a company in Turkey and seem to have paid for them, only to be left empty handed.
The Belgian minister of Health said a few weeks ago that they were ready for Covid19....

"It appears that we have fallen victims to a scam".

https://www.hln.be/de-krant/5-miljoen-m ... ~a6977412/


Ignore messages from politicians about not buying masks, not stashing food.
Get informed, there is enough information to make your own assessment of the situation, make your own decisions and execute plans.
"There is enough toilet paper". 3 weeks ago there supposedly were enough masks for everyone so if you feel like you need toilet paper, just buy it.
IMO toilet paper is not as essential as it appears: if you run out you can allocate a few towels for that purpose and rotate them. Towels can also be used for a wide variey of purposes, even in regular daily use, so I would stash towels.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:30 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Does anyone know why France is telling people to not take NSAIDs? Do they have some relevant data? I want to know is prostaglandins are essential to fighting this thing off. It might explain why men are getting sicker than women- our cycles pump varying levels of prostaglandins into us all the time. I wonder if it explains why smokers are appearing to contract the virus significantly less in the data. Smoking also alters prostaglandin levels. https://www.fasebj.org/doi/full/10.1096/fj.14-268383


I'm thinking this is about allergies and side effects and blocking clinically important fever indications. Have you looked up prostaglantins and EBOV, HIV? .


They're still recommending acetominophen, it's not the fever reducing effect. I've been chasing data for a while that would explain the smoker/non-smoker ratio in studies, the male/female ratio is also remaining imbalanced even in Italian data.

I've been trying to decipher the cytokines for a while now, but it's a bit daunting, they're complicated. From what I can tell, the lack of IFN-alpha is strange.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferon_type_I

IFN-α acts as a pyrogenic factor by altering the activity of thermosensitive neurons in the hypothalamus thus causing fever. It does this by binding to opioid receptors and eliciting the release of prostaglandin-E2 (PGE2).



I need to digest this information and try to figure out if it all connects together at all.

I wonder if this might be an effective treatment:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peginterferon_alfa-2a
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Pellegrine
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:45 am

Jouhou wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Does anyone know why France is telling people to not take NSAIDs? Do they have some relevant data? I want to know is prostaglandins are essential to fighting this thing off. It might explain why men are getting sicker than women- our cycles pump varying levels of prostaglandins into us all the time. I wonder if it explains why smokers are appearing to contract the virus significantly less in the data. Smoking also alters prostaglandin levels. https://www.fasebj.org/doi/full/10.1096/fj.14-268383


I'm thinking this is about allergies and side effects and blocking clinically important fever indications. Have you looked up prostaglantins and EBOV, HIV? .


They're still recommending acetominophen, it's not the fever reducing effect. I've been chasing data for a while that would explain the smoker/non-smoker ratio in studies, the male/female ratio is also remaining imbalanced even in Italian data.

I've been trying to decipher the cytokines for a while now, but it's a bit daunting, they're complicated. From what I can tell, the lack of IFN-alpha is strange.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferon_type_I

IFN-α acts as a pyrogenic factor by altering the activity of thermosensitive neurons in the hypothalamus thus causing fever. It does this by binding to opioid receptors and eliciting the release of prostaglandin-E2 (PGE2).



I need to digest this information and try to figure out if it all connects together at all.

I wonder if this might be an effective treatment:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peginterferon_alfa-2a


I don't know currently. EBOV included benzos, but obviously that wasn't for the virus itself. Acetaminophen is for the fever reducing effect. My only posit was because it would reduce possible quick-screening (non-PCR assay) testing positives if people were taking it as prophylaxis.
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noviorbis77
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:47 am

scbriml wrote:
noviorbis77 wrote:
Italy: Population - 60m
Coronavirus cases - 15K
Deaths - 1K

UK: Population: 66m
Coronavirus cases - 798
Deaths - 21

Italy had their first confirmed case 24hrs before the UK. The strategy is working.


Your figures are out of date. Latest UK infection count is nearly 1,400 with 35 deaths. “The strategy” only appears to be working because we’re now doing so few tests. If you don’t actually test and count, then the numbers will look low. Smoke and mirrors.


Yes out of date now.

Given that some people may have it and not realise it (given symptons vary), the whole argument could be flawed.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:59 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

I'm thinking this is about allergies and side effects and blocking clinically important fever indications. Have you looked up prostaglantins and EBOV, HIV? .


They're still recommending acetominophen, it's not the fever reducing effect. I've been chasing data for a while that would explain the smoker/non-smoker ratio in studies, the male/female ratio is also remaining imbalanced even in Italian data.

I've been trying to decipher the cytokines for a while now, but it's a bit daunting, they're complicated. From what I can tell, the lack of IFN-alpha is strange.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferon_type_I

IFN-α acts as a pyrogenic factor by altering the activity of thermosensitive neurons in the hypothalamus thus causing fever. It does this by binding to opioid receptors and eliciting the release of prostaglandin-E2 (PGE2).



I need to digest this information and try to figure out if it all connects together at all.

I wonder if this might be an effective treatment:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peginterferon_alfa-2a


I don't know currently. EBOV included benzos, but obviously that wasn't for the virus itself. Acetaminophen is for the fever reducing effect. My only posit was because it would reduce possible quick-screening (non-PCR assay) testing positives if people were taking it as prophylaxis.



Update: apparently Pegasys IS being evaluated as a treatment.

https://www.guidetopharmacology.org/coronavirus.jsp

From what I've managed to figure out so far, IFN-alpha (the lack of it) appears to be a key element in how this virus manages to take hold and do so much damage while creating symptoms that only appear "mild" before hypoxia sets in and cytokine storm is triggered.

I also still suspect ADE is playing a role in the sudden downturn in patients that develop severe disease.

Whether or not prostaglandins might play a role in any of that will probably take me several more hours of reading to determine. I guess I know my reading material for tomorrow night.
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Pellegrine
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:24 am

Jouhou wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

They're still recommending acetominophen, it's not the fever reducing effect. I've been chasing data for a while that would explain the smoker/non-smoker ratio in studies, the male/female ratio is also remaining imbalanced even in Italian data.

I've been trying to decipher the cytokines for a while now, but it's a bit daunting, they're complicated. From what I can tell, the lack of IFN-alpha is strange.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferon_type_I




I need to digest this information and try to figure out if it all connects together at all.

I wonder if this might be an effective treatment:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peginterferon_alfa-2a


I don't know currently. EBOV included benzos, but obviously that wasn't for the virus itself. Acetaminophen is for the fever reducing effect. My only posit was because it would reduce possible quick-screening (non-PCR assay) testing positives if people were taking it as prophylaxis.



Update: apparently Pegasys IS being evaluated as a treatment.

https://www.guidetopharmacology.org/coronavirus.jsp

From what I've managed to figure out so far, IFN-alpha (the lack of it) appears to be a key element in how this virus manages to take hold and do so much damage while creating symptoms that only appear "mild" before hypoxia sets in and cytokine storm is triggered.

I also still suspect ADE is playing a role in the sudden downturn in patients that develop severe disease.

Whether or not prostaglandins might play a role in any of that will probably take me several more hours of reading to determine. I guess I know my reading material for tomorrow night.


The fact that some 2 and a half decade old HIV drugs are being tried on this is not that earth-shaking.
We fly JETS, we don't fly donkeys.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:32 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
Pellegrine wrote:

I don't know currently. EBOV included benzos, but obviously that wasn't for the virus itself. Acetaminophen is for the fever reducing effect. My only posit was because it would reduce possible quick-screening (non-PCR assay) testing positives if people were taking it as prophylaxis.



Update: apparently Pegasys IS being evaluated as a treatment.

https://www.guidetopharmacology.org/coronavirus.jsp

From what I've managed to figure out so far, IFN-alpha (the lack of it) appears to be a key element in how this virus manages to take hold and do so much damage while creating symptoms that only appear "mild" before hypoxia sets in and cytokine storm is triggered.

I also still suspect ADE is playing a role in the sudden downturn in patients that develop severe disease.

Whether or not prostaglandins might play a role in any of that will probably take me several more hours of reading to determine. I guess I know my reading material for tomorrow night.


The fact that some 2 and a half decade old HIV drugs are being tried on this is not that earth-shaking.


It's used for HIV treatment? I thought it's just safe to use on HIV co-infected hepatitis C patients.

https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/201/11/1686/851546

I guess it works but it's not a treatment used for two and a half decades for HIV alone. That's from 2010.
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Aesma
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:48 am

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
https://apnews.com/8089a3d0ec8f9fde971bddd7b3aa2ba1

Coronavirus Vaccine Trials to Start on Monday
WASHINGTON (AP) — The first participant in a clinical trial for a vaccine to protect against the new coronavirus will receive an experimental dose on Monday, according to a government official.

The National Institutes of Health is funding the trial, which is taking place at the Kaiser Permanente Washington Health Research Institute in Seattle. The official who disclosed plans for the first participant spoke on condition of anonymity because the move has not been publicly announced.

Public health officials say it will take a year to 18 months to fully validate any potential vaccine.

I am having a hard time believing this for many reasons.

Thoughts?


Are they testing on death row people or something ?

1989worstyear wrote:
I know it's a moot point currently, but why are so many people forgetting what the Chinese government was doing back in Nov/Dec when this was first starting to break out?


Actually we don't really know what it was doing. Some local government was suppressing information, which is quite usual in China (and wrong).

Are you sure your own government would deal with a new virus without any mistake ? I'm not.
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Jouhou
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:59 am

DocLightning wrote:

*The link between hypertension and severity I think was a marker for metabolic syndrome. Some analyses said that it went away when corrected for age. But metabolic syndrome is a pro-inflammatory state. And what the Italian ICU docs were noticing was that so many of their patients had obesity and then wild swings in blood glucose. So if you're overweight, this is a good time to lose weight.



Doc, you don't think this one is as simple as the kinds of cells this virus infects? To me, this easily explained the severity in hypertensive and diabetic patients. The risk is higher for type 1 diabetes patients too, obesity plays no role in that. In the early Chinese cases that were detailed, I noticed both type 1 and type 2 described in the fatalities. I think it's just putting a lot of strain on the same things those impact, especially the kidneys.

Aesma wrote:
.



Since you're here, do you know if France is citing any specific data for advising against NSAIDs and corticosteroids? They're the only country advising this at the moment but I can imagine it's with good reason.
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Braybuddy
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:12 am

A101 wrote:
I haven’t been even able to confirm but the scuttlebug is the Chunnel has doubled its price for travel at the moment

Ryanair are offering flight changes "free" until the end of the month, but they bump-up the fares for the changed flights. I was due to fly to Kiev yesterday, but had to cancel as Ukraine, with impeccable timing, barred foreigners from entering the very same day. I managed to change the flights, but, out of curiosity, opened up a new page and searched for the same flights as a new booking. This is what I found. In each pair of screenshots, the first is the price if I wanted to change, the second is the same flight as a new booking:

Change to 4-8 October. For some reason, no return flight was listed as available, yet I could select it as a new booking:
Image
Image

Change to 11-15 October:
Image
Image

Change to 18-22 October:
Image
Image

Change to 12-15 November:
Image
Image
 
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Number6
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:13 am

Jouhou wrote:

Aesma wrote:
.



Since you're here, do you know if France is citing any specific data for advising against NSAIDs and corticosteroids? They're the only country advising this at the moment but I can imagine it's with good reason.


According to the French doctors, anti inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen can suppress the bodies own immune response. That’s why they’re recommending Tylenol as it’ll bring the fever down without affecting the immune system.

Edited to add link.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -infection
 
gregpodpl
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:31 am

Number6 wrote:
According to the French doctors, anti inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen can suppress the bodies own immune response. That’s why they’re recommending Tylenol as it’ll bring the fever down without affecting the immune system.

For everybody not in US, Tylenol is a brand name for paracetamol.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:32 am

Number6 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Aesma wrote:
.



Since you're here, do you know if France is citing any specific data for advising against NSAIDs and corticosteroids? They're the only country advising this at the moment but I can imagine it's with good reason.


According to the French doctors, anti inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen can suppress the bodies own immune response. That’s why they’re recommending Tylenol as it’ll bring the fever down without affecting the immune system.

Edited to add link.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -infection


Thanks for the response, but I was looking to see if France had specific data that pertained to the specific pieces of the puzzle I'm trying to solve. I really think we can mitigate damage from this disease if we can make the initial immune response stronger. I'm just trying to figure out the exact mechanisms and factors in this. France is telling people this with the kind of confidence that tells me they have strong data in hand.
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mark787
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:44 am

Something that I finally started to hear this weekend here in the US, one that was a brief article on Forbes website, was that there has been a very notable uptick in patients visiting doctors and ERs since late January where patients come in with flu like symptoms (fever, cough, sore throat or both) but are testing negative on flu tests. Ironically the up tick was recorded in the Pacific west region of the US and New York. But since there was no testing of the Coronavirus back then, doctors are not sure if those were cases of people who were infected with the coronavirus or something else. This has been my argument now for weeks. I suspect that the virus which was probably rampant in China as early as October or September of 2019 was then spread globally, and with zero travel restrictions back then between China and the US, the virus could have spread here as early as late December or early Jan. Two weeks ago I had a nagging sore throat that lasted almost a week, then suddenly I was blinded sided by a fever and sore throat. I went to an urgent care 3 times and tested negative for the flu. In a matter of days, it went away. The previous week, my wife had the same illness. I know several other people at my work and around where I live that had it at around the same time. My friend up the street ended up in the ER during the week that my wife was ill, and my friend who has several underlying conditions ended with a fever of 104F, pneumonia, and also went sepsis. He almost died and was in ICU for 1 week. He tested negative for the flu. something isn't right here. this spread already and I think what the Government is trying to do is to slow the spread because it's too late to stop it now.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:57 am

mark787 wrote:
Something that I finally started to hear this weekend here in the US, one that was a brief article on Forbes website, was that there has been a very notable uptick in patients visiting doctors and ERs since late January where patients come in with flu like symptoms (fever, cough, sore throat or both) but are testing negative on flu tests. Ironically the up tick was recorded in the Pacific west region of the US and New York. But since there was no testing of the Coronavirus back then, doctors are not sure if those were cases of people who were infected with the coronavirus or something else. This has been my argument now for weeks. I suspect that the virus which was probably rampant in China as early as October or September of 2019 was then spread globally, and with zero travel restrictions back then between China and the US, the virus could have spread here as early as late December or early Jan. Two weeks ago I had a nagging sore throat that lasted almost a week, then suddenly I was blinded sided by a fever and sore throat. I went to an urgent care 3 times and tested negative for the flu. In a matter of days, it went away. The previous week, my wife had the same illness. I know several other people at my work and around where I live that had it at around the same time. My friend up the street ended up in the ER during the week that my wife was ill, and my friend who has several underlying conditions ended with a fever of 104F, pneumonia, and also went sepsis. He almost died and was in ICU for 1 week. He tested negative for the flu. something isn't right here. this spread already and I think what the Government is trying to do is to slow the spread because it's too late to stop it now.


We had an abnormally strong RSV season and I know locally the human coronavirus HKU1 caused a hospitalization with the normal CoVs showing up strongly in viral surveillance data. We just had an absurd year in viruses in general. The difference is the number of people requiring hospitalization for survival, we hadn't seen a surge in that until recently. Just think about how many people this virus just killed in one nursing home.

Our healthcare system does seem to fail to respect the value in testing patients for exactly what they're infected with. We should do better than this.
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Phosphorus
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 10:55 am

Number6 wrote:
Jouhou wrote:

Aesma wrote:
.



Since you're here, do you know if France is citing any specific data for advising against NSAIDs and corticosteroids? They're the only country advising this at the moment but I can imagine it's with good reason.


According to the French doctors, anti inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen can suppress the bodies own immune response. That’s why they’re recommending Tylenol as it’ll bring the fever down without affecting the immune system.

Edited to add link.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -infection


Interesting. Ibuprofen and paracetamol are both NSAID's, so it must be a specific reaction to each that is presumably setting them apart. And cortisone is a steroid, again a different group of products.
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Braybuddy
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:01 am

Just breaking: Ryanair to ground majority of its fleet across Europe over the next ten days
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:26 am

Pellegrine wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

I think that is just messaging to manage the shortage of masks. One logic I heard, if consumers hoard all the masks, medical professionals may face a shortage, that theory seems to far fetched because every country will have strategic reserves.

If you are in a crowded place you should wear a mask and gloves.

I would like to hear back from the IATA doctor who told masks are absolute waste and viruses won't survive on hard surfaces.


We already covered this earlier on in this thread.

It's shameful that our medical professionals didn't see this coming and didn't secure masks, and now resort to telling people to not protect themselves so they can protect themselves.


So if you can find respirator masks, just buy them and protect yourself and your family.


You don't earn as much as a doctor but you want to post this bullshit? Do you know anything about ebolavirus protocol? Swimming goggles!!!


No masks have been harmed in this discussion, so no need to get irate, it is just our personal opinion which obviously doesn't match the script you are reading from.

The IATA doctor also read from the same script, several airlines didn't provide their crew with masks based on so-called professional opinion, with cases of crew catching the bug, the crew is worried and airlines are found flatfooted.

Use some commonsense than reading from the prepared script. Also, an individual using a mask when in a crowded place need not to follow the same procedures medical professional handling multiple infectious patients in a single day.

Surgical masks are useless, one N95 is more expensive than home delivery, so sit at home and order grocers and prescriptions.
All posts are just opinions.
 
invertalon
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:34 am

Have discussions yesterday with the family and it makes me wonder how long this virus has been going around and the percentage of people who have already had it.

My mom had a terrible flu about a month ago, give or take, that included a serious cough and even chest pains along with a fever. Went to doctor, which is not something she would normally do for a cold/flu. Dad shortly followed, days later, with the same sickness.

My girlfriend had the flu a few weeks ago, in which she also had a cough (in which we actually went to the doctor as she thought she may have hurt her throat/rib from the coughing). Given a cough is not a normal symptom of the 'common' flu, according to all the symptom charts floating around, makes me wonder.

I'd be curious, if there was a way to know after the fact, how long and widespread this already was and who had been affected by it already. Would be interesting, as there is no real way to know how many people already had it and recovered, as they can only test those now getting it.

There was also a write-up by a pediatrician (not sure how real, or not it was) about the child cases of the flu the past few months being unlike anything other they have seen symptom wise. Long story short, there is a theory based on the recovery/symptoms and timing that it may have been this virus. I don't know, but it's interesting none-the-less. All we see now is current testing/statistics from those who are now getting sick because it is now known what this is. It wasn't long ago that nobody had any idea and it would have been passed off as just another flu.
 
Cerecl
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:08 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Interesting. Ibuprofen and paracetamol are both NSAID's, so it must be a specific reaction to each that is presumably setting them apart. And cortisone is a steroid, again a different group of products.

No. Paracetamol is not an NSAID-it has anti-pyrexial but little anti-inflammatory properties. Please, there are already so much b*&$sh1t about COVID-19 out there, let's get the basic facts right.

I think people need to be very careful when they post about medical information. I found the French Health Minister's advice irresponsible. There is simply not high-quality research out there that suggests a relatively weak immune modulator like ibuprofen changes COVID-19's infective course. Even steroid's effect isn't clear-there are actually some people who advocate the use of steroid to control the acute respiratory distress syndrome associated with some COVID-19 cases. The immune system is very complex, and these kinds of message would simply bring panic to those who are using corticosteroid for other medical issues-inflammatory arthritis, organ transplant etc. Minister Véran is a neurologist-he should know there are patients who are stably maintained on steroid to treat their neurological condition. I doubt he intends these patients to abandon their medication in fear of COVID-19, but many who become aware of his tweet will. The end result is exacerbation of existing diseases without tangible benefit.
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Phosphorus
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:17 pm

Cerecl wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Interesting. Ibuprofen and paracetamol are both NSAID's, so it must be a specific reaction to each that is presumably setting them apart. And cortisone is a steroid, again a different group of products.

No. Paracetamol is not an NSAID-it has anti-pyrexial but little anti-inflammatory properties. Please, there are already so much b*&$sh1t about COVID-19 out there, let's get the basic facts right.
...

Interesting, thank you! Apparently, the definitions have changed, since I was selling bulk aspirin and paracetamol for a living! :old: Back then, both were referred to as NSAID's inside Rhone-Poulenc, and it was one of top pharma companies of the world at the time.
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Aesma
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:30 pm

Jouhou wrote:
Since you're here, do you know if France is citing any specific data for advising against NSAIDs and corticosteroids? They're the only country advising this at the moment but I can imagine it's with good reason.


It's data from French patients in ICUs, from what I've seen on TV. Several of them are young, with no/little comorbidities, and the common link is that they took such drugs.

The advice is not to take them unless you're on a long term treatment.
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Cerecl
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:03 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
It's shameful that our medical professionals didn't see this coming and didn't secure masks, and now resort to telling people to not protect themselves so they can protect themselves.
Now I hear doctors complaining that they only have a small stock and then show on TV a couple of useless surgical masks lying in a medical cabinet. So doctors clearly are not well informed about the type of masks that is required for this kind of intervention, nor do they seem to have the interest to keep updated about major medical threats.


Waterbomber2, may I suggest that you acquaint yourself with some knowledge about aspects of how "medical professionals" actually do their job?

-We don't "secure" masks, the health organisations we work in supply them. It is beyond stupid to blame "medical professionals" when they are not supplied with the right PPE. Those people are putting their health even their lives on the line, maybe some appreciation rather than ill-formed judgement would be more appropriate.
-We know exactly what kind of masks protect against which kind of hazard(s). Maybe you didn't attend our education sessions, nor did you receive 20 emails reminders about safety.
-I don't think there is any doctors in teaching hospitals who is not monitoring the very latest development on COVID-19. You are entitled to your impression, and your impression is wrong.
-There is a world-wide shortage of masks-Even before the first ever case of COVID-19 appeared here in Australia, all retail supply of N95s dried up and other masks became very hard to purchase. If you could snap a finger and increase mask production worldwide you would be a saint. I am guessing though that Saint Waterbomber2 is not going to happen.
-We are wearing masks to protect ourselves, because we see many patients a day and if we come down with a contagious condition we may pass it onto some of them who are not as healthy as us.

I could go on but hopefully you get the picture. Please remember, while some are talking about COVID-19, there are others who are treating it.
Last edited by Cerecl on Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cerecl
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:05 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Interesting, thank you! Apparently, the definitions have changed, since I was selling bulk aspirin and paracetamol for a living! :old: Back then, both were referred to as NSAID's inside Rhone-Poulenc, and it was one of top pharma companies of the world at the time.


No worries, aspirin is an NSAID, maybe that's where the confusion comes from.
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SCQ83
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:11 pm

Little update from Paris.

I broke my quarantine again to pick up a couple of packages to the Amazon Hub Locker in a supermarket nearby.

I arrived (around 1 PM local time) and there was a MASSIVE crowd waiting outside. I squeezed into the crowd and I showed the security guard my iPhone with the Amazon email yelling (behind my mask) "Amazon Locker" so he allows me in.

While I was there (the Locker is next to the main door) I could heard the security guards (there were 3 of them I think) telling the crowd that another 15 people would be let in (as some people had left so the supermarket was not anymore at full capacity). Everybody started pushing, yelling and people falling on the ground, and shouting to the security guards. :shock: Really mad-max.

So over the last three days:

- Saturday morning: supermarkets were full of stock (including toilet paper) and people like any other day. Everybody seemed relaxed.
- Sunday morning: crowds and half empty supermarkets but people were more or less behaving.
- Monday morning: PANIC

In two weeks from now, I guess a lot of people (specially in Western countries) will get literally MAD.

I also was reading the French newspapers and they were saying that Macron is to be make a "big announcement". No doubt he will order a complete lockdown of the country like Spain or Italy already have.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:18 pm

I am planning on going to the grocers once a week. And hoping my 7am time will be easy. And that every one else doesn't have the same idea. LOL YMCA closed, this gym rat is cornered.
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Dieuwer
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:21 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
IYMCA closed, this gym rat is cornered.


It seems that my gym will be closing as well. Suffice to say I WONT BE PAYING a MONTHLY FEE FOR NOTHING. Cash conservation comes first. So, I will probably cancel today.
 
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bgm
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:29 pm

Hires only the best people... lol
 
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casinterest
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:40 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
IYMCA closed, this gym rat is cornered.


It seems that my gym will be closing as well. Suffice to say I WONT BE PAYING a MONTHLY FEE FOR NOTHING. Cash conservation comes first. So, I will probably cancel today.


Hmmm, I need to check on that. I am a member of a Y as well.
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kalvado
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:50 pm

bgm wrote:

The more people brag about their honesty, the more crap they spill out.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:57 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
IYMCA closed, this gym rat is cornered.


It seems that my gym will be closing as well. Suffice to say I WONT BE PAYING a MONTHLY FEE FOR NOTHING. Cash conservation comes first. So, I will probably cancel today.


I've already told my gym to keep charging - I like all the workers there and wish them the best. Consider doing the same - but not if you are losing your income.
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Dieuwer
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:58 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
frmrCapCadet wrote:
IYMCA closed, this gym rat is cornered.


It seems that my gym will be closing as well. Suffice to say I WONT BE PAYING a MONTHLY FEE FOR NOTHING. Cash conservation comes first. So, I will probably cancel today.


I've already told my gym to keep charging - I like all the workers there and wish them the best. Consider doing the same - but not if you are losing your income.


My gym is one of the bigger ones who don't care about their customers (2.9 star rating on Google) and only recently started to clean much better, only because of COVID-19.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:59 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
I am planning on going to the grocers once a week. And hoping my 7am time will be easy. And that everyone else doesn't have the same idea. LOL YMCA closed, this gym rat is cornered.


Some stores offer a curbside/parking lot pickup option. Meijer(a Midwest store) charges $4.95 per pickup. Unlike home delivery services that markup every item, they charge in-store prices including sale and coupons. You park in the designated parking spot, a person brings out your grocers. Target pickup worked perfectly. Home Depot locker pickup is very efficient for smaller items.

Walmart has a similar service for groceries, but I wouldn't buy produce there. Amazon Prime Whole Foods delivery seems to be overwhelmed.

Interestingly I haven't seen many Prime delivery trucks on my street. I guess people are busy cleaning up local Costco shelves and freezers.
All posts are just opinions.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:17 pm

bgm wrote:


:rotfl: :rotfl:

dtw2hyd wrote:
Some stores offer a curbside/parking lot pickup option. Meijer(a Midwest store) charges $4.95 per pickup. Unlike home delivery services that markup every item, they charge in-store prices including sale and coupons. You park in the designated parking spot, a person brings out your grocers. Target pickup worked perfectly. Home Depot locker pickup is very efficient for smaller items.

Walmart has a similar service for groceries, but I wouldn't buy produce there. Amazon Prime Whole Foods delivery seems to be overwhelmed.

Interestingly I haven't seen many Prime delivery trucks on my street. I guess people are busy cleaning up local Costco shelves and freezers.


Local Krogers at Indiana have similar curbside pickup system also, and I can order everything from my phone.

I won't be surprise if even things like grocery will become pick-up only sooner or later.

P.S. No Meijer near me sadly...have to drive something like 30 mins up to those near Indy.
Last edited by zakuivcustom on Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:21 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
speedking wrote:
This came from China, a communist dictatorship. Their fellow commies around the world are now afraid that the government, the orange face in particular, doesn't take care of them. That's why all the noise against him. Should we use masks or not? Should we stock on supplies? Help us! Give us free stuff!
I'm from the Government and I'm here to help. The nine most terrifying words in English language.
The rest of us have been prepared and ready for a long time already.


Doesn’t that include the experts, who have studied and prepared a long time - only for much of their advice to go unheeded by ‘leaders’? Your statement of rugged individualism provides cover for incompetence.


“Rugged individualism” is what might keep him and his family alive if this thing gets worse. We all love to say we are a community, we help each other, etc, but when the time comes and the resources become severily limited you wont be able to count on the community and the collective. If not ask Europe, who for a long time have criticized American individualism, but now they have to swallow their words closing borders that have been open for decades, ration healthcare and decide who lives or not. Individualism kicks in eventually when the scarcity reaches a level where only certain groups would obtain goods and services.

The “government” something the left and liberals tell us daily should take care of us and tell us what to do, only exist on paper, the real government resides in your home, my wife and I are the true leaders in our home who decide what actions we must take in order to get through a disaster or a situation like this one where the “higher” authority wont be able to provide for us, and we wont expect them too, thankfully.

The government resources are finite, and wont be able to satisfy every citizen’s need, we are seeing that in Europe, and it just might happen on this side of the world soon.

By then we cant keep blaming our government for our survival, the individual should just take over or you will die waiting for someone else to.

The “experts” the “very professionals” are never in control of any government, and if they were how likely their words would traduce to actions in times of uncertainty and disaster. You can revise history, that has never happened.
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cjg225
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:34 pm

gregpodpl wrote:
For everybody not in US, Tylenol is a brand name for paracetamol.

Never heard it called that before. The generic is acetaminophen, to my knowledge.

EDIT: Looked it up. What do ya know. Learn something new every day. Never heard it called that before, but according to Wikipedia, that's the more common chemical name.
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716131
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:04 pm

I already seen that every school in nearly the whole world has been on shut down despite some countries are still not yet on lockdown - but they are expected to be in lockdown if the situation keeps getting worst. Students needs to also study online instead.
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par13del
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:23 pm

We are going to break the internet with so may folks working and studying from home.
Additional note, the supplies of laptop's are basically gone, most folks at home use WiFi so even when small form factor desktop computers are available, no cat 5 wires are in place.

Let's hope the next time a virus appears governments will not be afraid to shut down travel to one country / region immediately.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:34 pm

Very few shoppers in my favorite grocer at 7:10. BUT, workers were busier than I have seen restocking. Bread and egg racks had a lot of empty space, but found what we needed. Manager noted that the last three days were wild. We have enough to last a week, and more in the pantry and freezer. Only family member working on site is a pharmacist, and they are mostly on line at the shop.

ps - my gym is a Y, also runs the old city pool and does all sorts of good community things. Lots to love.
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Waterbomber2
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:41 pm

M564038 wrote:
Ok Waterbomber.

You need to understand 2 things.

1/You are not an expert. People, you included, should not be listening to hou, but to the experts.

2/You are stockpiling, and is making supplies a problem. Without you, supplies wouldn’t be a problem.

Waterbomber2 wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:

I think that is just messaging to manage the shortage of masks. One logic I heard, if consumers hoard all the masks, medical professionals may face a shortage, that theory seems to far fetched because every country will have strategic reserves.

If you are in a crowded place you should wear a mask and gloves.

I would like to hear back from the IATA doctor who told masks are absolute waste and viruses won't survive on hard surfaces.


We already covered this earlier on in this thread.

It's shameful that our medical professionals didn't see this coming and didn't secure masks, and now resort to telling people to not protect themselves so they can protect themselves.

I don't earn as much as a doctor but I was able to allocate a budget and secure a decent stash of respirator masks FFP2/FFP3 early on because I had my eyes and ears open. I could also secure half face masks and full face masks.
Now I hear doctors complaining that they only have a small stock and then show on TV a couple of useless surgical masks lying in a medical cabinet. So doctors clearly are not well informed about the type of masks that is required for this kind of intervention, nor do they seem to have the interest to keep updated about major medical threats. Politicians and medical professionals are now falsely claiming that masks don't help and could even make infection more likely which is uter b*%%£+*, because they want to secure their supply.
I'm now considering donating some of that stash to medical professionals in hard hit area's, althoug I feel ridiculous to have to babysit doctors who earn more than I do and were complacent at best.

N95, N100, FFP2 and FFP3 respirator masks will provide very good to excellent protection from inhalation of airborne particles that could carry the virus.
On top of that, eye protection may be advisable. Your swimming goggles could do, but you also have bigger goggles.
Even with these you may still interface with the virus, but the quantity of virus will be so insignificant that your body will be able to repell it very swiftly before it can multiply so that it doesn't lead to an infection.

So if you can find respirator masks, just buy them and protect yourself and your family.
Don't buy them to leave them on the shelf "just in case", because we are already fully in the "just in case" scenario.
Don't waste your money on surgical masks, they don't cut your exposure enough to justify the discomfort of wearing them.

By the way, Belgium ordered masks from a company in Turkey and seem to have paid for them, only to be left empty handed.
The Belgian minister of Health said a few weeks ago that they were ready for Covid19....

"It appears that we have fallen victims to a scam".

https://www.hln.be/de-krant/5-miljoen-m ... ~a6977412/


Ignore messages from politicians about not buying masks, not stashing food.
Get informed, there is enough information to make your own assessment of the situation, make your own decisions and execute plans.
"There is enough toilet paper". 3 weeks ago there supposedly were enough masks for everyone so if you feel like you need toilet paper, just buy it.
IMO toilet paper is not as essential as it appears: if you run out you can allocate a few towels for that purpose and rotate them. Towels can also be used for a wide variey of purposes, even in regular daily use, so I would stash towels.


I apologise if I ruffled some feathers and tainted your pride but I won't hesitate to write what I think even if it doesn't suit people.

The medical community has been very complacent against this virus. Doctors who are part of an organisation such as clinics and hospitals expect the management of the organisation, usually also doctors, to take care of PPE supplies. But then again, doctors should also be proactive about checking with their managers about PPE when a crisis like this one is looming.
When a doctor earns 300k USD per year, he is an entity of his own and his continued health is also important to maintain his income but also vital for the community he serves. To that end, a doctor should be able to make judgement calls and not rely on others to take care of everything for him.

About me hoarding masks. Yes I hoarded masks because my own safety is primordial to my ability to maintain my income through this crisis and also to protect the elderly in my family. On a busy day, I can come in contact with more people from more countries than any doctor is his practice over the course of a month, which puts me at the frontline. I remind you that in Northern Italy, elderly catching this and showing up at hospitals with heavy sumptoms are being triaged into a "unable to save" group and left to die.

Bravo to doctors who are putting their health and life on the line to save patients, but not bravo to for instance the doctors in Japan sending Covid19 patients home with cold medication and allowing further clusters to be formed, resulting in uncountable unnecessary deaths, including clusters forming at hospitals as the doctors themselves get infected and infect vulnerable patients. Not something to applaud.

So bravo for the selflessness, not bravo for the complacency and lack of professionalism in handling this crisis.
Also, in quiet times doctors earn big money, a multiple of average income for people working as tough if not tougher jobs. So when the sh*t hits the fans, I expect them to s*ck it up and not feel sorry for themselves. That's what people in other jobs do too, I don't think that cabin crew staffing flights in these times could be considered to be less selfless or less on the frontlines than doctors.

By the way, most doctors who have their own practices are facing the same problem.
So doctors telling people to not buy masks because they were complacent is as selfish as people hoarding them because they were proactive and well-informed and practiced sound judgement about things to come.
Doctors are not the only ones on the frontlines of this crisis, practically every single one of us is.

Everyone should hence be given the correct information so that they can protect themselves and avoid getting infected and infecting others.
It's really not hard to say "when leaving your home, please wear such or such type of mask. If you don't have one, please stay home for your own safety and the safety of people around you."
Telling lies about it is not ok in my opinion and very Orwellian.
 
Dieuwer
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:57 pm

I wonder when politicians are going to announce forgoing their big salaries and fat cat pensions...I won't hold my breath though.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:58 pm

DocLightning wrote:
OK, some thoughts, because I've been doing a *LOT* of reading. And as a reminder, I'm a physician who did a brief molecular virology stint:

* I suspect that there is a VAST underestimation of the number of minimally symptomatic or asymptomatic cases. I had a three week period that just ended where I met many of the criteria for COVID-19, but just so mildly that I shrugged it off as a mix of allergies and being a new dad and whatnot. And now I have a friend, a nurse, who has been seeing more than the usual number of ARDS cases on her unit for a couple of months and she had a similar cluster of symptoms, now resolved. 11 million people in Wuhan alone and 57 million in the metro area and "only" 80,000 cases? I suspect that there were a lot more than that. In Korea, they have acknowledged 8,000 but only tested 250,000 people out of how many million? The issue is that the proportion of infected who wind up in an ICU over it is vastly larger than with the flu, and so that's why this is a crisis. No country has the ICU capacity to handle this.

*The link between hypertension and severity I think was a marker for metabolic syndrome. Some analyses said that it went away when corrected for age. But metabolic syndrome is a pro-inflammatory state. And what the Italian ICU docs were noticing was that so many of their patients had obesity and then wild swings in blood glucose. So if you're overweight, this is a good time to lose weight.

*There are some promising new drugs. Remdesivir is an antiviral that seems to be turning people around in the ICU in US/European trials. Good old chloroquine/hydroxychloroquine seems to be doing wonders. In one chinese study(1), it kept all of 120 patients from critical disease. There are anecdotal reports of a few patients in Japan improving on ALVESCO (ciclesonide), a common asthma inhaler. Then there's lopinavir/ritonavir (KALETRA). If we could start treating people with moderate-to-severe disease EARLY, maybe we could vastly reduce the burden on our ICUs, which would ameliorate the crisis.

*I have no idea if this is going to go away for the summer, nor do I know if there is long-term immunity. But it can't keep circulating like this forever. I suspect it will turn into something like a seasonal flu until we have a good vaccine. If there *IS* good long-term immunity, then I think of an analogy to chicken pox, which is that most kids will catch it and have a mild course and then be protected like adults. Chicken pox is severe in adults.

(1)http://news.southcn.com/nfplus/gdjktt/content/2020-03/09/content_190536632.htm?fbclid=IwAR0ExDLu86fwi1_Ri0eAssQSA51m3jr5mAJ30yJhhEgs_m3eLz-JW0GF1BU (In Chinese but use translate on your browser if you cannot read Chinese)


Thank you for an informed post. It's helpful.

I've had symptoms for the last three days myself. On Tuesday last week I was at physiotherapy, and on Friday I started getting a fever, headache, neck ache, nausea and my stomach was feeling bad. This lasted until today (Monday) basically. I think I'm getting better, but not sure.

I have underlying health issues such as hypertension. So if this was Corona for me, I would be lucky. But on the other hand, it could be something else. Just common flu. Or that my symptoms haven't really taken a severe turn yet. I'm a bit scared.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:19 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
speedking wrote:
This came from China, a communist dictatorship. Their fellow commies around the world are now afraid that the government, the orange face in particular, doesn't take care of them. That's why all the noise against him. Should we use masks or not? Should we stock on supplies? Help us! Give us free stuff!
I'm from the Government and I'm here to help. The nine most terrifying words in English language.
The rest of us have been prepared and ready for a long time already.


Doesn’t that include the experts, who have studied and prepared a long time - only for much of their advice to go unheeded by ‘leaders’? Your statement of rugged individualism provides cover for incompetence.


“Rugged individualism” is what might keep him and his family alive if this thing gets worse. We all love to say we are a community, we help each other, etc, but when the time comes and the resources become severily limited you wont be able to count on the community and the collective. If not ask Europe, who for a long time have criticized American individualism, but now they have to swallow their words closing borders that have been open for decades, ration healthcare and decide who lives or not. Individualism kicks in eventually when the scarcity reaches a level where only certain groups would obtain goods and services.

The “government” something the left and liberals tell us daily should take care of us and tell us what to do, only exist on paper, the real government resides in your home, my wife and I are the true leaders in our home who decide what actions we must take in order to get through a disaster or a situation like this one where the “higher” authority wont be able to provide for us, and we wont expect them too, thankfully.

The government resources are finite, and wont be able to satisfy every citizen’s need, we are seeing that in Europe, and it just might happen on this side of the world soon.

By then we cant keep blaming our government for our survival, the individual should just take over or you will die waiting for someone else to.

The “experts” the “very professionals” are never in control of any government, and if they were how likely their words would traduce to actions in times of uncertainty and disaster. You can revise history, that has never happened.


Nah ah, if you want to engage another related topic you need to finish the previous one. You still have not replied to reply 2529:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1438989&start=2500#p22090443
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:22 pm

So now the EU is talking about closing its borders to all foreigners for 30 days. Couldnt find a link in English here is in spanish from El pais from spain

https://elpais.com/sociedad/2020-03-16/ ... -dias.html
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:29 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

The US has some of the best schools of public health management on Earth - developing countries send many of their best and brightest to the US for their MPH degrees. We have the capability and knowledge to be a leader in this area - it’s doubly tragic and infuriating this WH chose to ignore and downplay the science for so long to save face. Now the egg will go everywhere.

As for your unscientific insinuation the virus is indeed ‘foreign’ because it originated in China, it doesn’t matter. Viruses can’t be foreign - they occur naturally in nature and use whatever vectors they can to reproduce, anywhere. Human terms for geographical limits have no meaning in virology.


May I ask, why didnt China let any of those scientist into China when this was rising?

Again you ignore China, it was there where all began, they were the ones downplaying this since November 2019, the Doctor who was the whistleblower was arrested and forced to retract. I would let you respond as to why was China hiding this virus, and as to why we are now learning more as this virus had gone full international.

I know bashing the US government is fun, but lets not ignore the real source of this world wide crisis.


China doesn’t let international observers in under most circumstances, public health or not. Nobody who follows Chinese politics was surprised by their swift moves to suppress information - but if you look at the issue with a bit of nuance you’ll notice they suppressed information relating to the government’s handling and containment of the outbreak for political purposes. They did not suppress scientific data itself - Chinese researchers published numerous genomic and epidemiological studies of COVID-19 in English and otherwise.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00253-8

In any case you’re failing to address the main point - the US can and should be better than acting in similar ways. The WH spent two months downplaying and avoiding for what we can only assume were political purposes. The *experts* were saying something different - and now the barn doors are closing after the horses have bolted. It’s a failure of leadership not to take advantage of the great science and capability we have.


Your faith on experts and leaders is just on those in the US, how many of those across the pond with so much funding and “professional” governments also failed to prepare?

You keep telling us before all of this that the US needs to be more like Europe yet those who you tell us we should be messed this up like crazy.

Like I said, the Chinese sold us the idea this was just like the ‘flu’ even the Europeans believed this. Had the Chinese allowed scientist from the US and Europe come in and study this we would have been better prepares, with or without Trump, Macron or Conte etc.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 12295
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:46 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

May I ask, why didnt China let any of those scientist into China when this was rising?

Again you ignore China, it was there where all began, they were the ones downplaying this since November 2019, the Doctor who was the whistleblower was arrested and forced to retract. I would let you respond as to why was China hiding this virus, and as to why we are now learning more as this virus had gone full international.

I know bashing the US government is fun, but lets not ignore the real source of this world wide crisis.


China doesn’t let international observers in under most circumstances, public health or not. Nobody who follows Chinese politics was surprised by their swift moves to suppress information - but if you look at the issue with a bit of nuance you’ll notice they suppressed information relating to the government’s handling and containment of the outbreak for political purposes. They did not suppress scientific data itself - Chinese researchers published numerous genomic and epidemiological studies of COVID-19 in English and otherwise.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00253-8

In any case you’re failing to address the main point - the US can and should be better than acting in similar ways. The WH spent two months downplaying and avoiding for what we can only assume were political purposes. The *experts* were saying something different - and now the barn doors are closing after the horses have bolted. It’s a failure of leadership not to take advantage of the great science and capability we have.


Your faith on experts and leaders is just on those in the US, how many of those across the pond with so much funding and “professional” governments also failed to prepare?

You keep telling us before all of this that the US needs to be more like Europe yet those who you tell us we should be messed this up like crazy.

Like I said, the Chinese sold us the idea this was just like the ‘flu’ even the Europeans believed this. Had the Chinese allowed scientist from the US and Europe come in and study this we would have been better prepares, with or without Trump, Macron or Conte etc.


You are conflating things - looking to take lessons from an equitably managed healthcare system with strong outcomes is not the same as public health crisis management. You still did not respond to the main point - why is failing the potential of the US to do a great job at this excused? We have incredible experts - like Dr. Fauci, like many others at Johns Hopkins, the Cleveland Clinic, CDC etc - why did our leadership not convene a ‘Manhattan project’ style task force instead of deciding to go with political cover and his own idiotic assumptions instead?

As for China, nobody expected them to simply let everyone in - they never have. That’s a fantasy suggestion. We are fortunate they quickly shared genomic and epidemiological data - it could have easily gone another way.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
kalvado
Posts: 2817
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 4:29 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:51 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

May I ask, why didnt China let any of those scientist into China when this was rising?

Again you ignore China, it was there where all began, they were the ones downplaying this since November 2019, the Doctor who was the whistleblower was arrested and forced to retract. I would let you respond as to why was China hiding this virus, and as to why we are now learning more as this virus had gone full international.

I know bashing the US government is fun, but lets not ignore the real source of this world wide crisis.


China doesn’t let international observers in under most circumstances, public health or not. Nobody who follows Chinese politics was surprised by their swift moves to suppress information - but if you look at the issue with a bit of nuance you’ll notice they suppressed information relating to the government’s handling and containment of the outbreak for political purposes. They did not suppress scientific data itself - Chinese researchers published numerous genomic and epidemiological studies of COVID-19 in English and otherwise.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00253-8

In any case you’re failing to address the main point - the US can and should be better than acting in similar ways. The WH spent two months downplaying and avoiding for what we can only assume were political purposes. The *experts* were saying something different - and now the barn doors are closing after the horses have bolted. It’s a failure of leadership not to take advantage of the great science and capability we have.


Your faith on experts and leaders is just on those in the US, how many of those across the pond with so much funding and “professional” governments also failed to prepare?

You keep telling us before all of this that the US needs to be more like Europe yet those who you tell us we should be messed this up like crazy.

Like I said, the Chinese sold us the idea this was just like the ‘flu’ even the Europeans believed this. Had the Chinese allowed scientist from the US and Europe come in and study this we would have been better prepares, with or without Trump, Macron or Conte etc.


There were very clear messages about severe quarantine, about emergency hospital being over the limit.
Human to human transmission was confirmed on January 20, before that massive epidemic wasn't seen as feasible
Some papers available:
February 7: https://journals.lww.com/cmj/Abstract/p ... 99408.aspx
February 9: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7049028/
February 14: https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/full/10.1148/ryct.2020200033
February 15: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32061066
Bell was tolling loud and clear - but wasn't heard. What kind of additional information do you want?
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:58 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

China doesn’t let international observers in under most circumstances, public health or not. Nobody who follows Chinese politics was surprised by their swift moves to suppress information - but if you look at the issue with a bit of nuance you’ll notice they suppressed information relating to the government’s handling and containment of the outbreak for political purposes. They did not suppress scientific data itself - Chinese researchers published numerous genomic and epidemiological studies of COVID-19 in English and otherwise.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00253-8

In any case you’re failing to address the main point - the US can and should be better than acting in similar ways. The WH spent two months downplaying and avoiding for what we can only assume were political purposes. The *experts* were saying something different - and now the barn doors are closing after the horses have bolted. It’s a failure of leadership not to take advantage of the great science and capability we have.


Your faith on experts and leaders is just on those in the US, how many of those across the pond with so much funding and “professional” governments also failed to prepare?

You keep telling us before all of this that the US needs to be more like Europe yet those who you tell us we should be messed this up like crazy.

Like I said, the Chinese sold us the idea this was just like the ‘flu’ even the Europeans believed this. Had the Chinese allowed scientist from the US and Europe come in and study this we would have been better prepares, with or without Trump, Macron or Conte etc.


You are conflating things - looking to take lessons from an equitably managed healthcare system with strong outcomes is not the same as public health crisis management. You still did not respond to the main point - why is failing the potential of the US to do a great job at this excused? We have incredible experts - like Dr. Fauci, like many others at Johns Hopkins, the Cleveland Clinic, CDC etc - why did our leadership not convene a ‘Manhattan project’ style task force instead of deciding to go with political cover and his own idiotic assumptions instead?

As for China, nobody expected them to simply let everyone in - they never have. That’s a fantasy suggestion. We are fortunate they quickly shared genomic and epidemiological data - it could have easily gone another way.


Aaron, I share your thoughts, you are talking basically based on hindsight, which posts did you make 2 weeks ago sharing these concerns?

From my POV, despite the issues and blunders, we have done much much better than our European counterparts, which like I said thats the standard you and the opposition tells us we should be.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1092
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:59 pm

kalvado wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

China doesn’t let international observers in under most circumstances, public health or not. Nobody who follows Chinese politics was surprised by their swift moves to suppress information - but if you look at the issue with a bit of nuance you’ll notice they suppressed information relating to the government’s handling and containment of the outbreak for political purposes. They did not suppress scientific data itself - Chinese researchers published numerous genomic and epidemiological studies of COVID-19 in English and otherwise.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00253-8

In any case you’re failing to address the main point - the US can and should be better than acting in similar ways. The WH spent two months downplaying and avoiding for what we can only assume were political purposes. The *experts* were saying something different - and now the barn doors are closing after the horses have bolted. It’s a failure of leadership not to take advantage of the great science and capability we have.


Your faith on experts and leaders is just on those in the US, how many of those across the pond with so much funding and “professional” governments also failed to prepare?

You keep telling us before all of this that the US needs to be more like Europe yet those who you tell us we should be messed this up like crazy.

Like I said, the Chinese sold us the idea this was just like the ‘flu’ even the Europeans believed this. Had the Chinese allowed scientist from the US and Europe come in and study this we would have been better prepares, with or without Trump, Macron or Conte etc.


There were very clear messages about severe quarantine, about emergency hospital being over the limit.
Human to human transmission was confirmed on January 20, before that massive epidemic wasn't seen as feasible
Some papers available:
February 7: https://journals.lww.com/cmj/Abstract/p ... 99408.aspx
February 9: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7049028/
February 14: https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/full/10.1148/ryct.2020200033
February 15: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32061066
Bell was tolling loud and clear - but wasn't heard. What kind of additional information do you want?


This thing began as far as November. Are you another China apologist? China shaved almost 2 months off from the rest of the world to prepare.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 3520
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:01 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Like I said, the Chinese sold us the idea this was just like the ‘flu’ even the Europeans believed this. Had the Chinese allowed scientist from the US and Europe come in and study this we would have been better prepares, with or without Trump, Macron or Conte etc.


It's all WHO. They basically goes "Don't close border b/c that's discrimination". US actually closed their border to China, but Europe (along with many countries) did not.

Look at Taiwan - they knew better to trust the mainland Chinese government and took measures way early on. They only got 67 confirmed cases right now, with 40 of them being "imported" cases.

Vietnam is similar - they isolated the initial cluster, and actually didn't have a confirmed case from 2/20 to 3/7, when the "second" wave of confirmed cases hit Vietnam due to the European outbreak (A cluster of patient was from VN54, a flight from LHR to HAN). At 60 confirmed case, however, they're doing a lot better than many nearby countries.

Have to praise Singapore government also - while the number of cases there is not as rosy (almost 250 now), but they took every effort to trace the origin of cases down to make sure no large community outbreak occurred. It didn't stop the numerous clusters that pop up left and right in S'pore, but it could be much worse, especially given the population density in Singapore.

A large part of current outbreak in US stemmed from the European outbreak. There were isolated cases here and there in January and February, but nothing to worry about. All of a sudden, the "second" outbreak occurred in Europe and there goes US.

Meanwhile, Europe stay pat and just let people in...and look at what happen. Same for South Korea and Japan - they never closed their border with China and boom, SK gone way south while Japan still has consistent ~50 cases a day, many of whom are "local" transmission.

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