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maint123
Posts: 395
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:50 am

KL785 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Strict new curbs on life in the UK to tackle the spread of coronavirus have been announced by the prime minister.

From this evening people must stay at home except for shopping for basic necessities, daily exercise, any medical need and travelling to and from essential work.

Shops selling non-essential goods are being told to shut and gatherings in public of more than two people who do not live together are to be prohibited.

The UK death toll has reached 335.

If people do not follow the rules police will have the powers to enforce them, including through fines and dispersing gatherings, Boris Johnson said in a televised statement from Downing Street.



https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52012432

PM's address:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8BWOi5CqNw

The UK finally rose to the challenge. Thank god.
Perhaps Boris is the right man to lead the UK through this after all.


So now that the UK hast imposed pretty much the same restrictions as Germany, Boris is the right man but Germany somehow is running some kind of an evil scheme. Got it.

More than half of the 450 cases in india of Infected are related to people coming from UK. With their late and incompetent performance, uk is a danger not only to itself but also to other citizens transiting through uk.
With 350 deaths,and thousands infected ,wonder what happened to the much vaunted NHS ?
 
mark787
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:08 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:55 am

There are a lot of politics involved here when honestly, if you really look at it no country really handled this pandemic well. South Korea probably did best, but there are so many unknown factors in this to make any conclusion. The virus is essentially a rolling lesson around the globe that will have many different outcomes depending on several factors. Demographics play a vital role in that. Italy as well as Spain have a higher percentage of people over the age of 60 for various reasons, and speaking as a Spaniard in the US, and with an Italian wife, our cultures have a very family-centric background where we not only cherish our family values, but we tend to spend much time together in big groups of family members. In the US, (my opinion), family values are sort of 2nd or 3rd string, and we would sacrifice time with family for work, financial reasons, and yes some will do it to just be away from the family. So that closeness within the family that we see in Italy and Spain could also contribute to the high number of people infected. Plus, and the men in my family are guilty of this, smoking seems to be an epidemic in Spain and Italy, much more than it is in the US who still have high numbers of smokers. The mortality rate will continue to fluctuate until after the pandemic runs it's course or gets controlled and infection rates decrease. I suspect that even in the US, different parts of the country will have very different results and my guess, living here in NY, that we will be the hardest hit, and the last to recover. I don't expect Governor Cumo to ease the shelter in place order until at least mid to late April, maybe later.

That being said, though not a fan of Trump, I do remember the backlash that was given by the media and Democrats when he ordered a travel ban to and from China in late January. Also, too much credit seems to be given to the Chinese Government who are well known for being oppressive and who are well known to control the information that goes in and out of China. I have a number of Chinese co-workers who will very quickly inform people about how it is in China, and one of them has two family members that simply vanished near Wuhan, with no communication since early January. I keep hearing about these timelines that focus squarely on January, but almost all fail to accept the fact that this virus was already out of control in December of 2019, and was infecting people as far back as October to November, yet the Chinese Government made little to any acknowledgement of it then. in essence, people were flying to and from China without restrictions for months, infecting the global population. There was a report that a family member of mine who is a doctor, had shown me last month that clearly mentioned that in the NY area and the Pacific North west states had an up-tick of people going to the doctor or ER with flu like symptoms, but tested negative to the flu. That almost obviously can signify that the virus was already spreading from the earliest days of 2020. But there were no tests, so there was no way to know if it was indeed the Covid-19. So if anything, there are so many variables to this, we just simply won't know until the Pandemic is neutralized. No country or Politician can give facts on it, and most certainly, the media is even less reliable in reporting, causing a wide range panic in people solely for ratings. I'm not exactly sure if raising the restrictions on social contact is wise so soon. I would at the very least let it go to at least Mid April before even considering doing that. But also, the economy is a grave concern, and while many here say that it has a simple fix, the reality is that it isn't, and that there is not enough money in the world to revive any Country's economy. Small businesses are going to suffer the most, and many will not come back. My creditors are still collecting, so unless someone puts a stop to any collection for the duration of the stoppage, I have to work, virus or not. We are all walking on broken glass.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12781
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 7:59 am

KL785 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
Strict new curbs on life in the UK to tackle the spread of coronavirus have been announced by the prime minister.

From this evening people must stay at home except for shopping for basic necessities, daily exercise, any medical need and travelling to and from essential work.

Shops selling non-essential goods are being told to shut and gatherings in public of more than two people who do not live together are to be prohibited.

The UK death toll has reached 335.

If people do not follow the rules police will have the powers to enforce them, including through fines and dispersing gatherings, Boris Johnson said in a televised statement from Downing Street.



https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52012432

PM's address:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8BWOi5CqNw

The UK finally rose to the challenge. Thank god.
Perhaps Boris is the right man to lead the UK through this after all.


So now that the UK hast imposed pretty much the same restrictions as Germany, Boris is the right man but Germany somehow is running some kind of an evil scheme. Got it.


don´t we always plot evil?

And just check the undertones how unhappy some are that there are not that many people dying in Germany yet..... (but no worries, that will come).

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
KL785
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:03 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:36 am

tommy1808 wrote:

don´t we always plot evil?



Ha! I try my best, but to be honest: staying at home with two small kids, I just can't seem to get around to the whole plotting and scheming business. And once they are finally asleep I am just too tired for world dominance.

Wondering what that useless DVD is waiting for. Or are they working from home as well now?
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18978
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:52 am

KL785 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

don´t we always plot evil?



Ha! I try my best, but to be honest: staying at home with two small kids, I just can't seem to get around to the whole plotting and scheming business. And once they are finally asleep I am just too tired for world dominance.

Wondering what that useless DVD is waiting for. Or are they working from home as well now?


You’ve missed the obvious - Covid-19 is the work of the DVD. It’s the only explanation that makes sense. :wink2:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6222
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:05 am

KL785 wrote:
So now that the UK hast imposed pretty much the same restrictions as Germany, Boris is the right man but Germany somehow is running some kind of an evil scheme. Got it.


Germany has been dragging its feet to act on social distancing. What makes you think they should be an example to follow?
 
KL785
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:03 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:17 am

scbriml wrote:
KL785 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

don´t we always plot evil?



Ha! I try my best, but to be honest: staying at home with two small kids, I just can't seem to get around to the whole plotting and scheming business. And once they are finally asleep I am just too tired for world dominance.

Wondering what that useless DVD is waiting for. Or are they working from home as well now?


You’ve missed the obvious - Covid-19 is the work of the DVD. It’s the only explanation that makes sense. :wink2:



What?? No! That is crazy talk.

Damn, Mr Spyhunter is probably being called into number ten this very moment. Once again our plans are foiled.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18978
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:17 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
America is not built to shutdown. If you ask someone to stay at home, they will get upset at worst may start hyperventilating resulting in an ER visit or at a minimum they have to see a shrink, insurance has to cover in either case.


You think 21st century Americans are really this soft?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
KL785
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:03 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:23 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
KL785 wrote:
So now that the UK hast imposed pretty much the same restrictions as Germany, Boris is the right man but Germany somehow is running some kind of an evil scheme. Got it.


Germany has been dragging its feet to act on social distancing. What makes you think they should be an example to follow?


No idea. I did not say they should be. Maybe ask Mr. Johnson.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11806
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:26 am

mark787 wrote:
There are a lot of politics involved here when honestly, if you really look at it no country really handled this pandemic well. South Korea probably did best, but there are so many unknown factors in this to make any conclusion. The virus is essentially a rolling lesson around the globe that will have many different outcomes depending on several factors. Demographics play a vital role in that. Italy as well as Spain have a higher percentage of people over the age of 60 for various reasons, and speaking as a Spaniard in the US, and with an Italian wife, our cultures have a very family-centric background where we not only cherish our family values, but we tend to spend much time together in big groups of family members. In the US, (my opinion), family values are sort of 2nd or 3rd string, and we would sacrifice time with family for work, financial reasons, and yes some will do it to just be away from the family. So that closeness within the family that we see in Italy and Spain could also contribute to the high number of people infected. Plus, and the men in my family are guilty of this, smoking seems to be an epidemic in Spain and Italy, much more than it is in the US who still have high numbers of smokers. The mortality rate will continue to fluctuate until after the pandemic runs it's course or gets controlled and infection rates decrease. I suspect that even in the US, different parts of the country will have very different results and my guess, living here in NY, that we will be the hardest hit, and the last to recover. I don't expect Governor Cumo to ease the shelter in place order until at least mid to late April, maybe later.

That being said, though not a fan of Trump, I do remember the backlash that was given by the media and Democrats when he ordered a travel ban to and from China in late January. Also, too much credit seems to be given to the Chinese Government who are well known for being oppressive and who are well known to control the information that goes in and out of China. I have a number of Chinese co-workers who will very quickly inform people about how it is in China, and one of them has two family members that simply vanished near Wuhan, with no communication since early January. I keep hearing about these timelines that focus squarely on January, but almost all fail to accept the fact that this virus was already out of control in December of 2019, and was infecting people as far back as October to November, yet the Chinese Government made little to any acknowledgement of it then. in essence, people were flying to and from China without restrictions for months, infecting the global population. There was a report that a family member of mine who is a doctor, had shown me last month that clearly mentioned that in the NY area and the Pacific North west states had an up-tick of people going to the doctor or ER with flu like symptoms, but tested negative to the flu. That almost obviously can signify that the virus was already spreading from the earliest days of 2020. But there were no tests, so there was no way to know if it was indeed the Covid-19. So if anything, there are so many variables to this, we just simply won't know until the Pandemic is neutralized. No country or Politician can give facts on it, and most certainly, the media is even less reliable in reporting, causing a wide range panic in people solely for ratings. I'm not exactly sure if raising the restrictions on social contact is wise so soon. I would at the very least let it go to at least Mid April before even considering doing that. But also, the economy is a grave concern, and while many here say that it has a simple fix, the reality is that it isn't, and that there is not enough money in the world to revive any Country's economy. Small businesses are going to suffer the most, and many will not come back. My creditors are still collecting, so unless someone puts a stop to any collection for the duration of the stoppage, I have to work, virus or not. We are all walking on broken glass.


That’s why before the two useless parties in Congress continue fighting over what points they can try to score for November, they need to pass a simple emergency stop on mortgages, rent, and credit collections until April or whenever the most damaging period of shutdowns ends. That would provide the most benefit in taking heat off both businesses and the public at large.

Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures.
Last edited by Aaron747 on Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 3488
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:26 am

I live in a village of just over 200 people with a very elderly demographic the average age is likely over 60 with a large portion of the residents over 65, I'm still the youngest homeowner here at 33 (moved here when 24). My wife is on the local council and in the last few days there has been an edict to prepare for a grave site capable of up to 40 people, at this time there is no particular word as to who will be doing this but it hits home on the severity.

Fred
Image
 
GDB
Posts: 13627
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:13 am

Aaron747 wrote:
Newark727 wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
Texas Lt. Gov: Senior Citizens Willing to Die to Save Economy for Grandkids
https://www.google.com/search?q=dan+pat ... e&ie=UTF-8


If true, would be a novel change of pace. Their efforts to provide functioning schools and a habitable planet for their grandkids certainly haven't impressed so far.


Being upset with boomers is one thing, wishing them dead? Come on...


Is he an elected official, he is a GOP party member. Even less smart considering that's his/their base. Or just a true opening into the black heart of him/them.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 12968
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:21 am

mark787 wrote:
There was a report that a family member of mine who is a doctor, had shown me last month that clearly mentioned that in the NY area and the Pacific North west states had an up-tick of people going to the doctor or ER with flu like symptoms, but tested negative to the flu. That almost obviously can signify that the virus was already spreading from the earliest days of 2020. But there were no tests, so there was no way to know if it was indeed the Covid-19.


Wouldn't that tend to prove that the US is no better at identifying a new virus than China is ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
mark787
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:08 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:57 am

Aesma:: Exactly my point. I don't think that any country has done this to a tee, even if we can say that South Korea did it best. China was slow to identify it, and when the whistle was blown, a Dr. was silenced for pointing it out. Keeping mum about it didn't make things better for anyone. The US on the other hand probably just said, don't test anyone, it will just go away in time. And that worked well too right? UK was slow to get there, Germany too, forget Italy and Spain. and the list will carry on. We as a global society failed to control this, and nobody was prepared which is inexcusable considering that it wasn't that long ago when we dealt with H1N!, SARS, Ebola... My we forget quickly.

tommy1808: This is the biggest dilemmas that Americans are facing. layoffs, but rent, bills, keep coming. It would have been nice if say the Governor of NY would say when he announced the stay in shelter order, would have been said in the same press conference that "Ladies and Gentlemen, collectors are barred from collecting for 2 months. No mortgage, no rent, no utilities, no s**t. But not here. DiBlasio is crying that the world is ending but wants you to keep putting money in the parking meters. In the US, you hear of really nice things that politicians want to do for you, but as always, they fail to outline the rules into Layman's terms and make the big banks and creditors stop chasing you for money. There shouldn't even be any interest charged.
 
SwissCanuck
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 8:06 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:10 am

Good lord.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52014023

Elderly homes abandoned. in some cases residents found dead in their beds.

If this doesn't drive home the urgency of life over economy, I don't know what will.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11806
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:17 am

FWIW, US, Spain and Italy are passing the original Chinese trajectory. The Surgeon General warned just yesterday that things were going to start looking pretty bad. New York and Madrid are ahead of the original Wuhan trajectory as well.

Image

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status ... 73089?s=21

Trajectories for countries with more recent outbreaks:

Image
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:20 pm

scbriml wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
America is not built to shutdown. If you ask someone to stay at home, they will get upset at worst may start hyperventilating resulting in an ER visit or at a minimum they have to see a shrink, insurance has to cover in either case.


You think 21st century Americans are really this soft?


Absolutely, why do you think universities have safe spaces and crying pods.
All posts are just opinions.
 
716131
Posts: 892
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:38 pm

I'm in Indonesia and today I have nothing to do now. Indonesia did not go lockdown like some countries does, but I'm staying at my place instead. If running out of food, I usually order food from the app mostly. Sadly, going to do slower work than usual until at least the next 2 weeks or so.
If it's not Boeing, I'm not going!
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 1183
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:25 pm

The situation seems to be worsening in my city. While traffic is extremely light for a city that is usually jampacked to the gills on a business day, I have noticed an unusually large amount of ambulances criss-crossing the city.
Supermarkets are quiet after the (first) hoarding wave has subsided, I asked the cashier how many packs of flour I was allowed to take and was told to take as many as I like, where a week ago I was shouted at for taking 12 bottles of pasta sauce and flour was limited to 3 packs.
I took the opportunity to stock up a bit more before things get vastly worse.
Most people wearing masks, but some idiots don't get it and get very close to reach something from the same shelf, almost "breathing down my neck" ... So I leave them some space and then they take all the time in the world, can't decide which one to take, this one or that one, ah this is cheaper ah... but this looks better. While they wander in this tunnel vision mode, they put their index finger on their lip, then touch their hair, then swipe their nose...
It's a spectacle to watch quite frankly. It would be fun if I wasn't in a hurry to get out of there and back home.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1054
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:26 pm

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:


I was on this forum, looking at this thread every day. I don't recall you being interested. This thread was at the top, as it is now. I am every so thankful for the handful of posters that kept me updated on what was going on. Which were all very informed, intelligent professionals. Especially the monitor who kept this thread on track and non-political.

to be polite, you are misremembering.


Hi, check post 66, that's me in the second page of this thread.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12781
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:45 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
but some idiots don't get it and get very close to reach something from the same shelf, almost "breathing down my neck" ..


They closed a grocery store in Berlin yesterday over that...

Good

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 2148
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:52 pm

scbriml wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
America is not built to shutdown. If you ask someone to stay at home, they will get upset at worst may start hyperventilating resulting in an ER visit or at a minimum they have to see a shrink, insurance has to cover in either case.


You think 21st century Americans are really this soft?


We sure as hell aren’t as tough as the Greatest or Silent generations. Maybe this will change that, in particular for the younger crowd. People are so wrapped around their first world problems they can’t even take a step back and relax on toilet paper acquisition. Seriously. People are complaining about Amazon not delivering their precious blu-ray’s for a couple of weeks. Stupid.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5496
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:31 pm

“Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love
 
KFTG
Posts: 795
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:36 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
“Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

Can your grandparents die instead of mine? Thank you.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15051
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:38 pm

While the proportion of hospitalizations and deaths go higher for those over 60, there have been hospitalization and deaths of children as young as 3 from this virus. Some younger persons may have unknown or known medical conditions that add risk to them. Sadly, many younger persons have no experience of such an event, think they are not vulnerable and so don't practice social distancing and others. They can get sick themselves, have no symptoms and pass it on to more vulnerable persons like parents or those with medical conditions.
I am 65 and since last Sunday afternoon, taken to working from home, only going outside once a day to get mail, take a walk, only going to grocery store once a week on Saturdays and bring stuff to my 91 yo mom using minimal touching to not get her sick I am stretching out my going to the laundromat to every 2 weeks, instead of every week. If away from my apartment, I will yell at those not practicing social distancing.
We have to ignore the RWNJ politicians eager to 'get back to normal' to save the economy. I am fortunate to be in good financial shape, still have a decent paying job. I feel for those on the edges but saving millions of lives from death and millions more from long-term health problems from this virus is more important than the economy.
Last edited by ltbewr on Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
theaviator380
Posts: 681
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:44 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:38 pm

India has announced countrywide Lockdown (for 3 weeks) starting midnight after 400 odd cases, really good proactive step rather than reactive step...PM Narendra Modi is a dynamic leader and has great leadership qualities.

Hope people respect and take this seriously rather than flirting with danger !

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 784148.cms
Last edited by theaviator380 on Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12781
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:39 pm

KFTG wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
“Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done, and why. Then do it.”
― Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

Can your grandparents die instead of mine? Thank you.


Well, most experts recommend strict distancing measures....

The question is which experts to listen to....

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
Newark727
Posts: 1844
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:49 pm

theaviator380 wrote:
India has announced countrywide Lockdown (for 3 weeks) starting midnight after 400 odd cases, really good proactive step rather than reactive step...PM Narendra Modi is a dynamic leader and has great leadership qualities.

Hope people respect and take this seriously rather than flirting with danger !

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 784148.cms


He's just another thuggish nationalist gaining power by picking on the scapegoat du jour. However in this case his instinct to step heavily may be the correct one.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5496
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:03 pm

An optimistic view including experts. The denominator problem still isn’t be accounted for, we likely have millions of cases that aren’t counted and inflate the CFR. Italy is an outlier because of the way they attribute death to COVID.

https://reason.com/2020/03/23/two-reaso ... realistic/
Last edited by GalaxyFlyer on Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8244
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:04 pm

theaviator380 wrote:
India has announced countrywide Lockdown (for 3 weeks) starting midnight after 400 odd cases, really good proactive step rather than reactive step...PM Narendra Modi is a dynamic leader and has great leadership qualities.

Hope people respect and take this seriously rather than flirting with danger !

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 784148.cms


If you don't test there will be 0 cases.

I sincerely hope the upcoming heatwave helps. India is in its worst shape economically, government has no money, there is no liquidity in the system, banks are in their worst shape.

There is nothing proactive about it. India already missed the bus.
All posts are just opinions.
 
KFTG
Posts: 795
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:10 pm

Liberty University is going back into session.
I think we can all agree that less Liberty University graduates is a good thing.
Getting tired of all the winning yet?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12781
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:11 pm

Newark727 wrote:
theaviator380 wrote:
India has announced countrywide Lockdown (for 3 weeks) starting midnight after 400 odd cases, really good proactive step rather than reactive step...PM Narendra Modi is a dynamic leader and has great leadership qualities.

Hope people respect and take this seriously rather than flirting with danger !

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 784148.cms


He's just another thuggish nationalist gaining power by picking on the scapegoat du jour. However in this case his instinct to step heavily may be the correct one.


India has done very little testing though...

Article is referring th Thursday last week, let's hope they ramped that up..

BBC wrote:
The jury is out on this one. India had tested some 14,175 people in 72 state-run labs as of Thursday evening - one of the lowest testing rates in the world.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-51922204

Test capacity seems to be 8k/day.

https://theprint.in/opinion/by-failing- ... me/383639/

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2031
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:13 pm

scbriml wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
America is not built to shutdown. If you ask someone to stay at home, they will get upset at worst may start hyperventilating
resulting in an ER visit or at a minimum they have to see a shrink, insurance has to cover in either case.


You think 21st century Americans are really this soft?


Actually there is some truth to it. During lunch yesterday an orthopaedist said that when people are forced to stay at home (=having too much free time)
like now they will get a bit restless. People then start to work on house projects resulting in people getting injured and needing medical care.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12781
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:15 pm

KFTG wrote:
Liberty University is going back into session.
I think we can all agree that less Liberty University graduates is a good thing.
Getting tired of all the winning yet?


Well, technically it ain't suicide and they are all probably very sure that a) God will protect them and that if not, it's b) because he wants them to go to heaven now, which also makes it an act of faith.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12781
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:24 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
An optimistic view including experts. The denominator problem still isn’t be accounted for, we likely have millions of cases that aren’t counted and inflate the CFR. Italy is an outlier because of the way they attribute death to COVID.

https://reason.com/2020/03/23/two-reaso ... realistic/


Your own source makes a pretty good case to ignore the guy in your source: https://reason.com/2020/03/15/when-shou ... cientists/

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 5496
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:38 pm

True, but is this a “science” question or a “policy” one? What level of economic destruction should we endure to save an unknown number of lives? How many people are infected today versus confirmed cases? Those are political policy questions, not scientific ones. There are trade-offs, not simple answers, but submitting trade-offs is now considered “killing grandma” or “wiping out humanity”.

Looking at the poll results, one could conclude we should just eliminate democracy and let experts decide most policy issues. I don’t agree, obviously.
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 11806
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:45 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
True, but is this a “science” question or a “policy” one? What level of economic destruction should we endure to save an unknown number of lives? How many people are infected today versus confirmed cases? Those are political policy questions, not scientific ones. There are trade-offs, not simple answers, but submitting trade-offs is now considered “killing grandma” or “wiping out humanity”.

Looking at the poll results, one could conclude we should just eliminate democracy and let experts decide most policy issues. I don’t agree, obviously.


It's not only about the saving of lives, but the inevitable disruptions that will be caused by having a healthcare system overwhelmed for God knows how many months.

These folks get it:

There will be no normally functioning economy if our hospitals are overwhelmed and thousands of Americans of all ages, including our doctors and nurses, lay dying because we have failed to do what’s necessary to stop the virus. - Rep. Liz Cheney

https://twitter.com/Liz_Cheney/status/1 ... 61543?s=20

Try running an economy with major hospitals overflowing, doctors and nurses forced to stop treating some because they can’t help all, and every moment of gut-wrenching medical chaos being played out in our living rooms, on TV, on social media, and shown all around the world.

When it comes to how to fight #CoronavirusPandemic, I’m making my decisions based on healthcare professionals like Dr. Fauci and others, not political punditry. - Sen. Lindsey Graham

https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/sta ... 21061?s=20
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Tugger
Posts: 10305
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:58 pm

To those that espouse just opening everything up and letting the disease run its course:

Please first go and meet directly with those that have the disease. Then once you have it and are experiencing it, please then provide guidance. Otherwise, shut up.

Thanks.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Reinhardt
Posts: 299
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Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:04 pm

maint123 wrote:
More than half of the 450 cases in india of Infected are related to people coming from UK. With their late and incompetent performance, uk is a danger not only to itself but also to other citizens transiting through uk.
With 350 deaths,and thousands infected ,wonder what happened to the much vaunted NHS ?


You're absolutely right.

The NHS has been massively underfunded for the last 8 or so years. Boris, with his aides enbarked on this crazy idea of herd immunity, which nobody else is doing for extremely obvious reason's. Then combined with that the UK public have generally ignored the vast majority of instructions has led to where we are today.Very far behind where it should be. Those who were demanding he take tougher actions faster were pushed back against by quite a lot of the same people who have been banging the drum for Brexit. I can only hope now the tougher measures are in place, people take note. Brits are incredibly generous in tough situtations but they can be incredibly arrogant and refuse to do what they are told.

I hope the NHS is given what it needs to fight this. So far lots of promises by govenment but not much to be seen. Lots of reports of Doctors and Nurses with completely insufficient masks and clothing working with positive tested patients. Given the crap they've been through the last few years, it's quite outragous to expect them to put their lifes at risk without being kitted out properly.
 
KFTG
Posts: 795
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:08 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
True, but is this a “science” question or a “policy” one? What level of economic destruction should we endure to save an unknown number of lives? How many people are infected today versus confirmed cases? Those are political policy questions, not scientific ones. There are trade-offs, not simple answers, but submitting trade-offs is now considered “killing grandma” or “wiping out humanity”.

Looking at the poll results, one could conclude we should just eliminate democracy and let experts decide most policy issues. I don’t agree, obviously.

So, it turns out, you weren't concerned about death panels at all. Killing grandma is EXACTLY what you are advocating for.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8244
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:13 pm

BTW, some people in India are harassing airline crew, claiming that they imported this virus into India.

Homeowners' association's leaders are gone rampant. Pilots not allowed to go to their homes.

https://twitter.com/flybouy777/status/1 ... 8299222016
Indigo and Air India Cabin Crew taunted
https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 3024774144
https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 4498822144
https://twitter.com/shukla_tarun/status ... 3410231297

Same Air India which is still operating rescue flights to bring back Indians.
All posts are just opinions.
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1054
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:18 pm

KFTG wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
True, but is this a “science” question or a “policy” one? What level of economic destruction should we endure to save an unknown number of lives? How many people are infected today versus confirmed cases? Those are political policy questions, not scientific ones. There are trade-offs, not simple answers, but submitting trade-offs is now considered “killing grandma” or “wiping out humanity”.

Looking at the poll results, one could conclude we should just eliminate democracy and let experts decide most policy issues. I don’t agree, obviously.

So, it turns out, you weren't concerned about death panels at all. Killing grandma is EXACTLY what you are advocating for.


This is so ridiculous, the poster is in the 'boomer' range of those with more risk.

No one can't make an argument in this forum without being accused of something they are not. People are going to have different opinions that's all, learn to live with it.

If you and everyone else is willing to spend months inside your home for this virus, good for you, hopefully you are actually doing what you preach.

Its becoming obvious that those who want to keep everyone home have some political agenda.

Clearly in the US there are 50 state governments and hundreds of local ones. Let them decide.
Last edited by AirWorthy99 on Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12781
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:20 pm

KFTG wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
True, but is this a “science” question or a “policy” one? What level of economic destruction should we endure to save an unknown number of lives? How many people are infected today versus confirmed cases? Those are political policy questions, not scientific ones. There are trade-offs, not simple answers, but submitting trade-offs is now considered “killing grandma” or “wiping out humanity”.

Looking at the poll results, one could conclude we should just eliminate democracy and let experts decide most policy issues. I don’t agree, obviously.

So, it turns out, you weren't concerned about death panels at all. Killing grandma is EXACTLY what you are advocating for.


And surprise, its the same my money vs. other peoples lives kinda situation....

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10305
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:36 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
True, but is this a “science” question or a “policy” one? What level of economic destruction should we endure to save an unknown number of lives? How many people are infected today versus confirmed cases? Those are political policy questions, not scientific ones. There are trade-offs, not simple answers, but submitting trade-offs is now considered “killing grandma” or “wiping out humanity”.

Looking at the poll results, one could conclude we should just eliminate democracy and let experts decide most policy issues. I don’t agree, obviously.

So, it turns out, you weren't concerned about death panels at all. Killing grandma is EXACTLY what you are advocating for.


This is so ridiculous, the poster is in the 'boomer' range of those with more risk.

No one can't make an argument in this forum without being accused of something they are not. People are going to have different opinions that's all, learn to live with it.

If you and everyone else is willing to spend months inside your home for this virus, good for you, hopefully you are actually doing what you preach.

Its becoming obvious that those who want to keep everyone home have some political agenda.

Clearly in the US there are 50 state governments and hundreds of local ones. Let them decide.

Sorry, but if you have ever advocated against "universal healthcare" (and I am not here making that argument) along with a concern of "death panels", people/healthcare experts who decide at what point care should be denied or ended, then those advocating for "go ahead and let the disease run" are doing EXACTLY THAT. Deciding for others what the value of their health is.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1054
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:42 pm

Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
KFTG wrote:
So, it turns out, you weren't concerned about death panels at all. Killing grandma is EXACTLY what you are advocating for.


This is so ridiculous, the poster is in the 'boomer' range of those with more risk.

No one can't make an argument in this forum without being accused of something they are not. People are going to have different opinions that's all, learn to live with it.

If you and everyone else is willing to spend months inside your home for this virus, good for you, hopefully you are actually doing what you preach.

Its becoming obvious that those who want to keep everyone home have some political agenda.

Clearly in the US there are 50 state governments and hundreds of local ones. Let them decide.

Sorry, but if you have ever advocated against "universal healthcare" (and I am not here making that argument) along with a concern of "death panels", people/healthcare experts who decide at what point care should be denied or ended, then those advocating for "go ahead and let the disease run" are doing EXACTLY THAT. Deciding for others what the value of their health is.

Tugg


No one is advocating for this. Absolutely no one. Don't know how opening back this country means opening "death panels". That's not going to happen and its not happening. So all of this is wild speculation based on absolutely nothing, meant to kill and silence a conversation that people are free to do in this forum.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10305
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:09 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Sorry, but if you have ever advocated against "universal healthcare" (and I am not here making that argument) along with a concern of "death panels", people/healthcare experts who decide at what point care should be denied or ended, then those advocating for "go ahead and let the disease run" are doing EXACTLY THAT. Deciding for others what the value of their health is.

Tugg


No one is advocating for this. Absolutely no one. Don't know how opening back this country means opening "death panels". That's not going to happen and its not happening. So all of this is wild speculation based on absolutely nothing, meant to kill and silence a conversation that people are free to do in this forum.

It is absolutely KNOWN that with more interpersonal interactions, more infection will spread.... Do you deny this?
And it is also known that with infection spread more "at risk" people will become ill, with the largest group being those that are older and especially those with underlying health issues.
Additionally, it is known that there will also be other people from all groups who will suffer lifelong problems and potentially be at risk to die without strong medical care.
And finally it is known that the medical care system can be over burdened quickly in the face of a fast spreading epidemic.

So please state what your solution is to protect people (versus saying "take the risk!") so that you can "open the country"?

To my knowledge that is exactly what we are trying to get to. But some don't think so and think it needs to be sped up even not fully understanding the risk.

Look, I myself think there is serious over-reaction going on. But I have not head any high level leadership proposed plan of how to clearly attack this and go forward. I here mostly poo-poo'ing, and grousing, not clear careful thought out planning.

My loose, off the cuff, thinking is:
Identify all at risk persons and populations
Plan how to secure and safe guard those that need protections
Prepare and have in place tests to determine the scope and scale of the problem
Prepare medical services for the determined scale (+ addtional to cover errors)
Fund fully
Provide increase medical care access for all who need it
Fully engage public on plan, work with state and local governments to enable plan to proceed and be successful
Begin process to secure those needing care and at risk - be ready to assist them monetarily going forward to reestablish afterward
Engage medical system to care for those that become infected but are able to self-secure
Engage funding to recover from lost activity

Got any ideas like that?
I think most just want to complain and bitch that "the other guy is doing the wrong thing" and justpoint fingers without putitng anythign of their on this line.

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1054
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:13 pm

Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Sorry, but if you have ever advocated against "universal healthcare" (and I am not here making that argument) along with a concern of "death panels", people/healthcare experts who decide at what point care should be denied or ended, then those advocating for "go ahead and let the disease run" are doing EXACTLY THAT. Deciding for others what the value of their health is.

Tugg


No one is advocating for this. Absolutely no one. Don't know how opening back this country means opening "death panels". That's not going to happen and its not happening. So all of this is wild speculation based on absolutely nothing, meant to kill and silence a conversation that people are free to do in this forum.

It is absolutely KNOWN that with more interpersonal interactions, more infection will spread.... Do you deny this?
And it is also known that with infection spread more "at risk" people, with the largest group being those that are older and especially those with underlying health issues.
Additionally, it is known that there will also be other people from all groups who will suffer lifelong problems and potentially be at risk to die without strong medical care.
And finally it is known that the medical care system can be over burdened quickly in the face of a fast spreading epidemic.

So please state what your solution is to protect people (versus saying "take the risk!") so that you can "open the country"?

To my knowledge that is exactly what we are trying to get to. But some don't think so and think it needs to be sped up even not fully understanding the risk.

Look, I myself think there is serious over-reaction going on. But I have not head any high level leadership proposed plan of how to clearly attack this and go forward. I here mostly poo-poo'ing, and grousing, not clear careful thought out planning.

My loose, off the cuff, thinking is:
Identify all at risk persons and populations
Plan how to secure and safe guard those that need protections
Prepare and have in place tests to determine the scope and scale of the problem
Prepare medical services for the determined scale (+ addtional to cover errors)
Fund fully
Provide increase medical care access for all who need it
Fully engage public on plan, work with state and local governments to enable plan to proceed and be successful
Begin process to secure those needing care and at risk - be ready to assist them monetarily going forward to reestablish afterward
Engage medical system to care for those that become infected but are able to self-secure
Engage funding to recover from lost activity

Got any ideas like that?
I think most just want to complain and bitch that "the other guy is doing the wrong thing" and justpoint fingers without putitng anythign of their on this line.

Tugg


Good ideas, but I think state and local governments are the ones to decide based on their own situations if businesses and life should resume to a certain level of normalcy. Trump is not the governor of any state or mayor of any city if he decides we can open up back shop, its up to the 50 states and local governments to implement what they believe is better for each and everyone of them.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10305
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:16 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Good ideas, but I think state and local governments are the ones to decide based on their own situations if businesses and life should resume to a certain level of normalcy. Trump is not the governor of any state or mayor of any city if he decides we can open up back shop, its up to the 50 states and local governments to implement what they believe is better for each and everyone of them.

You are right.

And General's and Admiral's should not create plans and always leave all strategic decisions to the plattoon level commanders in the field. Because that is the smarter thing to do to win any battle.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 1054
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:21 pm

Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Good ideas, but I think state and local governments are the ones to decide based on their own situations if businesses and life should resume to a certain level of normalcy. Trump is not the governor of any state or mayor of any city if he decides we can open up back shop, its up to the 50 states and local governments to implement what they believe is better for each and everyone of them.

You are right.

And General's and Admiral's should not create plans and always leave all strategic decisions to the plattoon level commanders in the field. Because that is the smarter thing to do to win any battle.

Tugg


Look I know many people hate Trump, and will criticize him for everything. But look at the larger picture, when has this country ever have asked all citizens and business not to work?

The economic price of this is not worth trying to find out how much it will be.

And thus far based on the data, it seems to me that the most vulnerable and at risk population could very well stay home for a longer time than the rest of us, whilst we keep working for them and our children. That's my belief. The vast majority of those who get the virus will only get mild symptoms. Would I want to get them? no, last time I got the 'flu' which is milder than this was almost 7 years ago, I wish not to get sick again but if it happens I don't expect the world to stop waiting for me to get better.
“It’s easy to confuse ‘what is’ with ‘what ought to be,’ especially when ‘what is’ has worked out in your favor.” Tyrion Lannister
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10305
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Novel Coronavirus outbreak

Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:27 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Good ideas, but I think state and local governments are the ones to decide based on their own situations if businesses and life should resume to a certain level of normalcy. Trump is not the governor of any state or mayor of any city if he decides we can open up back shop, its up to the 50 states and local governments to implement what they believe is better for each and everyone of them.

You are right.

And General's and Admiral's should not create plans and always leave all strategic decisions to the plattoon level commanders in the field. Because that is the smarter thing to do to win any battle.

Tugg


Look I know many people hate Trump, and will criticize him for everything. But look at the larger picture, when has this country ever have asked all citizens and business not to work?

The economic price of this is not worth trying to find out how much it will be.

And thus far based on the data, it seems to me that the most vulnerable and at risk population could very well stay home for a longer time than the rest of us, whilst we keep working for them and our children. That's my belief. The vast majority of those who get the virus will only get mild symptoms. Would I want to get them? no, last time I got the 'flu' which is milder than this was almost 7 years ago, I wish not to get sick again but if it happens I don't expect the world to stop waiting for me to get better.

Then leadership, like you have just done, needs to stand up and provide cohesive guidance. And be ready to assist local governments to do the tasks they need to do. And most importantly, national leadership needs to be ready to work with each state's or community's plan with financial resources because, like it or not, the federal government, as has been well demonstrated these past few days, has vastly more resources and tools available to withstand the impact of whatever plan is implemented.

Are you ready and willing to support that? If not, what is your solution to prevent mass civic bankruptcy's or insufficient prevention/containment plans due to lack of funds?

.... Wait, hold on.... you said "That's my belief."? You want medical containment strategies to be wholly based on belief? Where are facts in this? Don't need them? Also regarding not getting the flu for 7 years... you do understand we have had vaccines for decades and that a good chunk of the public get the latest one each year and the "herd immunity" is a huge factor in why you have not gotten it in years? Not to mention the fact (there's that word) that the COVID19 virus is more virulent and has stronger symptoms and effect than other strains?

Tugg
Last edited by Tugger on Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey

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