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afcjets
Posts: 3225
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:33 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It takes a lot to make Trump the moderate in the general election, but Bernie is up to the challenge.

Trump is a very moderate President as far as his positions. It's the results he gets that are extreme and how he does things that are considered extreme by ineffective politicians and bureaucrats.
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:56 pm

The debate was kind of a mess. My thoughts:

Bloomberg: guess it's time to drop tens of millions of more dollars to compensate for the debate. What an awful performance. The beginning and another part of the debate was the other 5 taking turns beating him

Warren: she still seems fake to me. Too much pandering. She doesn't come across as genuine (when it comes to minorities.) She seems passionate on other parts of her platform, but she's too left for me. She did do well yesterday IMO and gained a bit more respect for me, but like I said, too left for me

Bernie: front runner who didn't get attacked much, the winner IMO. I think he's genuine and a great guy... Just too left for me unfortunately

Biden: did well I think, he sounds experienced and knows what he's doing. He's goofy but I think he'd make a good president

Pete: I like the guy, I think he's close to me ideologically in a lot of ways. It's hard to be passionate but moderate. I think he may be relatively inexperienced and didn't rock the debate floor yesterday. And IDK, we elected a black president, I don't see why a gay one would be a deal breaker for too many people

Klobachar: seemed a bit desperate for attention and tried to make a name for herself, which is understandable. Came off a bit weird but I think her policies largely match with mine

It really comes down to nominating a moderate or a progressive. I don't think nominating a moderate is a losing strategy, we just need a leader with passion. Not sure if Biden has that excitement... Pete may be too inexperienced... Klobachar, perhaps, I don't know enough about her
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 4880
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Thu Feb 20, 2020 10:47 pm

Anyone wanting to learn why most, if not all, political BS regarding health care is BS, dive into this blog. Careful, you might need health care after reading it.

https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/why- ... -a-primer/

H/T Marginal Revolution
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10962
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:00 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Anyone wanting to learn why most, if not all, political BS regarding health care is BS, dive into this blog. Careful, you might need health care after reading it.

https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/why- ... -a-primer/

H/T Marginal Revolution


For all the detail they went into, this blogger inexplicably failed to cross-reference critical comparisons while claiming hospital executive and average healthcare worker incomes were not driving overall costs. Earlier in the post, they argued that comparisons to other OECD countries were flawed because they don’t take into account higher incomes as a consumption driver - that’s true, but you can’t then drop that argument when talking about cost inflation. They credit only the possibility of pharma price differentials, but a multivariate analysis of OECD countries indexed by both average per capita incomes AND average incomes of their healthcare professionals would give us a better picture of how much above the average income each country’s healthcare professionals are at. I would make a considerable wager that top specialists, insurance administrators and particularly hospital executives are compensated far higher in the US relative to average per capita incomes. There is not a large difference in per capita incomes between the US, Australia, Germany etc, so the comparison could be pretty illuminating.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N583JB
Posts: 209
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:28 pm

seb146 wrote:
N583JB wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

Yet you won't even casually note nobody here is backing that statement..why?


I've never claimed that seb represents the mainstream left. He or she has always seemed like a fringe leftist to me. Many of the other more liberal posters on here are much more moderate or at the very least more rational.


The "yeah, well, but the leftist fringe..." deflection and excuse always always always comes from MAGA fans. And absolutely zero proof to back it up. Or are you saying one guy who may have done one thing one time is representative of half the population? If that is the case, what does that say about the tens of thousands wearing MAGA hats and cheering racist actions and statements? The thousands of MAGA fans who have committed crimes in his name?

https://www.businessinsider.com/extremi ... ort-2019-1
https://www.salon.com/2019/08/12/he-sou ... r-in-2009/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ng/581284/


The only person who routinely does that "yeah, but" routine here is you. I've never defended violence from the right. In fact I've condemned it repeatedly. When the left acts up, however, you just start screaming about how Republicans deserve it. That makes you a fringe, radial leftist, IMO. Advocating for (or at the very least, attempting to make excuses for) violence against those who don't vote for your choice of Presidential candidate is wrong.
 
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ER757
Posts: 3674
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Thu Feb 20, 2020 11:33 pm

[/i]
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It takes a lot to make Trump the moderate in the general election, but Bernie is up to the challenge.

That's for sure.....he really want bats*** crazy in the debate, especially the "distribution of wealth" diatribe. Bloomberg didn't do much but his comeback to Bernie saying billionaires shouldn't exist was priceless: "I think I should exist." Hell, even Warren had to come out and take a swipe at him saying "I'm a capitalist" in an effort to try and distance herself from his insanity.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:04 am

Its unfortunate, but the only man who really had a chance at beating Trump was Biden, but the impeachment saga had only one casualty, and that was Biden, not Trump, since his approval numbers have kept steady and higher than before impeachment: https://news.gallup.com/poll/286280/tru ... teady.aspx

Biden was likely weakened by the constant news of his son on the Ukraine scandal, even if Democrats 'intent' was impeaching or at least 'wounding' Trump, it only killed Biden's chances and their only best chance on the 2020 election. And now the Dem's have Socialist Bernie as the front-runner, and seems nothing will stop him. It may also cost the Dem's down-ballot races, possibly the house... lets see.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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DeltaMD90
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:04 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its unfortunate, but the only man who really had a chance at beating Trump was Biden, but the impeachment saga had only one casualty, and that was Biden, not Trump, since his approval numbers have kept steady and higher than before impeachment: https://news.gallup.com/poll/286280/tru ... teady.aspx

Biden was likely weakened by the constant news of his son on the Ukraine scandal, even if Democrats 'intent' was impeaching or at least 'wounding' Trump, it only killed Biden's chances and their only best chance on the 2020 election. And now the Dem's have Socialist Bernie as the front-runner, and seems nothing will stop him. It may also cost the Dem's down-ballot races, possibly the house... lets see.

I thought this, but honestly, I think enthusiasm is a necessary ingredient. I think he is the safe, "electable" choice but would he inspire people to vote? I don't think so. What I saw during the debate seemed like more of a leader, but honestly, he's mostly seen as the boring option

I don't know, I'm just some random guy on the internet, but I think we (coming from the left-of-center side) need to actually motivate people to vote to win, not just run on the "Orange Man bad" candidacy

I'm 99.999% not gonna vote for Trump, and I'm probably 80% gonna vote for the Dem, but it's not automatic. The nominee has to earn my vote (which won't be hard to do but some of the stuff I've seen worries me.) I'm not gonna vote AGAINST someone (Trump) like I did in 2016...

Flame away people ;)
 
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seb146
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:48 am

N583JB wrote:
I've never defended violence from the right.


If you (general; I do not want to point fingers) say you (general) are against violence from the right but continue to support and say you (general) will vote for the current occupant of the White House, you (again, general) are part of the problem. We did not have this problem to this degree under GWB or GWHB or Reagan or Ford.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
apodino
Topic Author
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:08 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its unfortunate, but the only man who really had a chance at beating Trump was Biden, but the impeachment saga had only one casualty, and that was Biden, not Trump, since his approval numbers have kept steady and higher than before impeachment: https://news.gallup.com/poll/286280/tru ... teady.aspx

Biden was likely weakened by the constant news of his son on the Ukraine scandal, even if Democrats 'intent' was impeaching or at least 'wounding' Trump, it only killed Biden's chances and their only best chance on the 2020 election. And now the Dem's have Socialist Bernie as the front-runner, and seems nothing will stop him. It may also cost the Dem's down-ballot races, possibly the house... lets see.


I completely disagree with your first paragraph. I think absolutely Bernie Sanders can beat Trump. Bernie has an incredible base of support and if he is the nominee, he would draw a lot of new voters in, and I think this would counter trump. One of the big reasons Trump was elected is voters wanted to give a big middle finger to the establishment, and the same thing on the Democrat side is propelling Bernie to the nomination. One sure way Democrats can assure Trump's reelection is for Bernie to go into the convention in Milwaukee with the most delegates and for someone else to walk out the nominee. Nothing would piss off Sanders supporters more than this, and if somehow the man who walks out of Milwaukee ends up being Bloomberg, this is a disaster waiting to happen.


As for the debate last night, Bloomberg got crushed so it would logically seem that his momentum is stopped for now. Here are my thoughts on last night.

Sanders - He did what he needed to do. Made no major gaffes. Was not the best debater on the stage last night but he didn't have to be. He benefitted tremendously from the Bloomberg pile on. I don't suspect he won any new voters over last night, but with him leading in the polls, he should do very well.

Bloomberg - That was terrible. Probably the worst performance I have seen on a debate stage since Stockdale in the 1992 VP debate. He was totally crushed, and he looked like an out of touch elitist who knows better than the voters. A lot of people may give Tom Perez some heat and rightly so. However, if Tom Perez realized last night was going to happen and changed the rules to lure Bloomberg in so he could be taken down, it was a stroke of genius on his part. The question is, how many people actually watched the debate last night, or did they not watch and are being charmed by his TV ads? If the latter, this man is dangerous. He is still getting endorsements, and almost seems to be buying off a majority of the Democratic establishment.

Warren - She had the best debate last night. That being said, I am not sure how much last night helped her. Many people have early voted in Nevada already before this debate, so this debate would be more likely to help her in South Carolina or on Super Tuesday. The minority staffer issue happened in Nevada (Since she has trailed off dramatically I am guessing that many candidates didn't feel a need to bring this up). She could get a bump in Nevada, but I don't see South Carolina doing much, so she would likely have to look at super Tuesday states to stay relevant. (Maine and MA are two good states for her to do so for obvious reasons)

Biden - Quietly had a decent night, and was also a bit of a forgotten man with both the Bloomberg pile on and the Klobuchar - Buttigieg sparring match. My guess is he can probably get second place in Nevada and then win South Carolina to stay relevant. If this happens, Super Tuesday will be make or break for him.

Buttigieg - Had some good moments, but took shots from Bernie and Warren and also the exchanges with Klobuchar were such that they may turn off women voters. I suspect we don't hear much from him until super Tuesday

Klobuchar - Had a much worse performance than the great one in New Hampshire. Her reactions to Buttigieg make her look like someone who can be rattled. At the same time she took heat from Warren before being defended by her. She wasn't going to play in Nevada or South Carolina anyways, but she naturally is leading in the Minnesota Polls and could pull a haul of delegates from there and some other Super Tuesday states. I don't think she stays in after that, but she will have some sway at the convention.


I see Nevada as Sanders winning, followed by Biden, Warren, Buttigieg, and Klobuchar. I think only the first three will come away with delegates. In South Carolina, I see Biden winning, Tom Steyer in Second, Sanders third, and everyone else irrelevant. So going into Super Tuesday, Sanders will lead the delegate count, followed by Biden, and Buttigieg. Then Super Tuesday happens.

One other thing I found noteworthy from the debate last night. Chuck Todd asked all the candidates if the person with the most delegates going into the convention should be the nominee. Only Bernie Sanders said Yes, the others said let the process play out. Very Telling. And rumor has it that Bloomberg is already trying to buy off the superdelegates in case the convention is contested.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2651
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:56 am

apodino wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its unfortunate, but the only man who really had a chance at beating Trump was Biden, but the impeachment saga had only one casualty, and that was Biden, not Trump, since his approval numbers have kept steady and higher than before impeachment: https://news.gallup.com/poll/286280/tru ... teady.aspx

Biden was likely weakened by the constant news of his son on the Ukraine scandal, even if Democrats 'intent' was impeaching or at least 'wounding' Trump, it only killed Biden's chances and their only best chance on the 2020 election. And now the Dem's have Socialist Bernie as the front-runner, and seems nothing will stop him. It may also cost the Dem's down-ballot races, possibly the house... lets see.


I completely disagree with your first paragraph. I think absolutely Bernie Sanders can beat Trump. Bernie has an incredible base of support and if he is the nominee, he would draw a lot of new voters in, and I think this would counter trump. One of the big reasons Trump was elected is voters wanted to give a big middle finger to the establishment, and the same thing on the Democrat side is propelling Bernie to the nomination. One sure way Democrats can assure Trump's reelection is for Bernie to go into the convention in Milwaukee with the most delegates and for someone else to walk out the nominee. Nothing would piss off Sanders supporters more than this, and if somehow the man who walks out of Milwaukee ends up being Bloomberg, this is a disaster waiting to happen.

With the majority of voters in the primaries breaking for the moderates clear and away (and all the polling thus far confirming the strong majority of Democrats preferring moderates and NOT revolution), I think it would be a disaster letting Bernie walk out of the convention with the nomination. Could not disagree more that Bernie could beat Trump...he'll scare off moderate and conservative Democrats as well as independents and we get 4 more years of Trump-- just remember that Hillary did actually win the popular vote against Trump.

Primaries are supposed to mete out and lay bare weaknesses/drawbacks in candidates which logically allows the surviving one the best chance of standing in an election. Bernie has thus far skated by with little to no scrutiny/push-back on his record or policies, and that simply will not be the case in the general election. If Sanders becomes the nominee, and the economy is still basically good come November it's a hands-down Trump win. As much as I hate him and want him out of office, he's a known quantity...moderates and independents either stay home or swallow the bitter pill of 4 more years of an evil they at least know versus an unknown Leftist version of Trump.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:44 am

The next debate will air on Tuesday, February 25 at 8:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time on CBS and BET; Twitter will be a debate partner.

CBS News and the Congressional Black Caucus Institute will host the tenth debate at the Gaillard Center in Charleston, South Carolina.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:59 pm

apodino wrote:

I completely disagree with your first paragraph. I think absolutely Bernie Sanders can beat Trump. Bernie has an incredible base of support and if he is the nominee, he would draw a lot of new voters in, and I think this would counter trump. One of the big reasons Trump was elected is voters wanted to give a big middle finger to the establishment, and the same thing on the Democrat side is propelling Bernie to the nomination. One sure way Democrats can assure Trump's reelection is for Bernie to go into the convention in Milwaukee with the most delegates and for someone else to walk out the nominee. Nothing would piss off Sanders supporters more than this, and if somehow the man who walks out of Milwaukee ends up being Bloomberg, this is a disaster waiting to happen.



This all is still a big unknown. The US has never nominated for president a far leftist or socialist as a candidate of a major party. So we don't know yet what will happen.

But if he is the nominee, we saw on the debate stage a glimpse of what's coming, Bloomberg challenged him on being a socialist, saying he owns 3 homes, and is a millionaire 'socialist', which is a huge hypocrisy considering he says he hasn't a single 'capitalist' bone in him. I doubt you can ever have 3 homes, and be a millionaire without being a capitalist, but hey, that will be a tough one. He complained saying it was a 'cheap shot'. Good luck with Trump saying to his face "Communist Bernie" and unearthing clips of him praising the Soviet Union and Socialist dictators. That's coming.

It will be a huge challenge, but who knows what can happen.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10962
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:17 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
apodino wrote:

I completely disagree with your first paragraph. I think absolutely Bernie Sanders can beat Trump. Bernie has an incredible base of support and if he is the nominee, he would draw a lot of new voters in, and I think this would counter trump. One of the big reasons Trump was elected is voters wanted to give a big middle finger to the establishment, and the same thing on the Democrat side is propelling Bernie to the nomination. One sure way Democrats can assure Trump's reelection is for Bernie to go into the convention in Milwaukee with the most delegates and for someone else to walk out the nominee. Nothing would piss off Sanders supporters more than this, and if somehow the man who walks out of Milwaukee ends up being Bloomberg, this is a disaster waiting to happen.



But if he is the nominee, we saw on the debate stage a glimpse of what's coming, Bloomberg challenged him on being a socialist, saying he owns 3 homes, and is a millionaire 'socialist', which is a huge hypocrisy considering he says he hasn't a single 'capitalist' bone in him. I doubt you can ever have 3 homes, and be a millionaire without being a capitalist, but hey, that will be a tough one. He complained saying it was a 'cheap shot'. Good luck with Trump saying to his face "Communist Bernie" and unearthing clips of him praising the Soviet Union and Socialist dictators. That's coming.


This is why providing sources and fact-checking is necessary because several of your comments are misconstrued or outright misquoted.

Sanders did not say he 'hasn't a single capitalist bone', what he said was:

"Elizabeth, I think, as you know, has said that she is a capitalist through her bones. I’m not.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... ist-im-not

Sanders did not say the comment about his homes was a 'cheap shot' either, that was in response to Bloomberg's characterization of democratic socialism as being on par with communism, which is obviously a blatant economic and historical lie. I'd say Sanders was being congenial by only calling it a cheap shot.

“We’re not going to throw out capitalism,” the former mayor continued. “We’ve already tried that. Other countries tried that. It was called communism and it just didn’t work.”

“Let’s talk about democratic socialism, not communism, Mr. Bloomberg,” he said. “That’s a cheap shot.”


https://news.yahoo.com/bernie-bloomberg ... 40189.html

More generally, there is a lot of conflating, without any nuance, the difference between pure socialism and the European model of democratic socialism Sanders talks about constantly. Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Japan etc. all have such a system despite private companies, private employment, and yes, some wealthy people. Sanders has never denied those are features of that model. As such, this statement of Bloomberg's was a mischaracterization: “The best-known socialist in the country is a millionaire with three homes,” - sure, that would be unusual for a real socialist, like Leon Trotsky, but not at all for a democratic socialist in any of the above countries with a long career. No hypocrisy, unless you completely misunderstand what kind of 'socialism' is being discussed. Further if Sanders had acquired that wealth by erasing mom and pop stores from a market or cheating employees out of stock options or board positions, then yes, you could levy calls of hypocrisy.

https://news.yahoo.com/bernie-bloomberg ... 40189.html

Critical thinking - it helps.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:26 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
apodino wrote:

I completely disagree with your first paragraph. I think absolutely Bernie Sanders can beat Trump. Bernie has an incredible base of support and if he is the nominee, he would draw a lot of new voters in, and I think this would counter trump. One of the big reasons Trump was elected is voters wanted to give a big middle finger to the establishment, and the same thing on the Democrat side is propelling Bernie to the nomination. One sure way Democrats can assure Trump's reelection is for Bernie to go into the convention in Milwaukee with the most delegates and for someone else to walk out the nominee. Nothing would piss off Sanders supporters more than this, and if somehow the man who walks out of Milwaukee ends up being Bloomberg, this is a disaster waiting to happen.



But if he is the nominee, we saw on the debate stage a glimpse of what's coming, Bloomberg challenged him on being a socialist, saying he owns 3 homes, and is a millionaire 'socialist', which is a huge hypocrisy considering he says he hasn't a single 'capitalist' bone in him. I doubt you can ever have 3 homes, and be a millionaire without being a capitalist, but hey, that will be a tough one. He complained saying it was a 'cheap shot'. Good luck with Trump saying to his face "Communist Bernie" and unearthing clips of him praising the Soviet Union and Socialist dictators. That's coming.


This is why providing sources and fact-checking is necessary because several of your comments are misconstrued or outright misquoted.

Sanders did not say he 'hasn't a single capitalist bone', what he said was:

"Elizabeth, I think, as you know, has said that she is a capitalist through her bones. I’m not.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... ist-im-not

Sanders did not say the comment about his homes was a 'cheap shot' either, that was in response to Bloomberg's characterization of democratic socialism as being on par with communism, which is obviously a blatant economic and historical lie. I'd say Sanders was being congenial by only calling it a cheap shot.

“We’re not going to throw out capitalism,” the former mayor continued. “We’ve already tried that. Other countries tried that. It was called communism and it just didn’t work.”

“Let’s talk about democratic socialism, not communism, Mr. Bloomberg,” he said. “That’s a cheap shot.”


https://news.yahoo.com/bernie-bloomberg ... 40189.html

More generally, there is a lot of conflating, without any nuance, the difference between pure socialism and the European model of democratic socialism Sanders talks about constantly. Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Japan etc. all have such a system despite private companies, private employment, and yes, some wealthy people. Sanders has never denied those are features of that model. As such, this statement of Bloomberg's was a mischaracterization: “The best-known socialist in the country is a millionaire with three homes,” - sure, that would be unusual for a real socialist, like Leon Trotsky, but not at all for a democratic socialist in any of the above countries with a long career. No hypocrisy, unless you completely misunderstand what kind of 'socialism' is being discussed.

https://news.yahoo.com/bernie-bloomberg ... 40189.html


Yes, saying she is a capitalist and I am not, is basically saying I am not a capitalist. You quoted that. He said that he isnt a capitalist. What more can be explained?

Complete hypocrisy since it was capitalism that allowed him to buy 3 homes, and be a millionaire. Don't know how can you not do those things and not be a capitalist. He engaged in the free market, and made money and accumulated wealth in order to acquire private property and equity. Don't know how you are able to spin this some other way.

If we were to go by his views of 'sharing' or 'distributing' the wealth, he could donate 2 of his homes to homeless people, he only needs one.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10962
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:34 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

But if he is the nominee, we saw on the debate stage a glimpse of what's coming, Bloomberg challenged him on being a socialist, saying he owns 3 homes, and is a millionaire 'socialist', which is a huge hypocrisy considering he says he hasn't a single 'capitalist' bone in him. I doubt you can ever have 3 homes, and be a millionaire without being a capitalist, but hey, that will be a tough one. He complained saying it was a 'cheap shot'. Good luck with Trump saying to his face "Communist Bernie" and unearthing clips of him praising the Soviet Union and Socialist dictators. That's coming.


This is why providing sources and fact-checking is necessary because several of your comments are misconstrued or outright misquoted.

Sanders did not say he 'hasn't a single capitalist bone', what he said was:

"Elizabeth, I think, as you know, has said that she is a capitalist through her bones. I’m not.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... ist-im-not

Sanders did not say the comment about his homes was a 'cheap shot' either, that was in response to Bloomberg's characterization of democratic socialism as being on par with communism, which is obviously a blatant economic and historical lie. I'd say Sanders was being congenial by only calling it a cheap shot.

“We’re not going to throw out capitalism,” the former mayor continued. “We’ve already tried that. Other countries tried that. It was called communism and it just didn’t work.”

“Let’s talk about democratic socialism, not communism, Mr. Bloomberg,” he said. “That’s a cheap shot.”


https://news.yahoo.com/bernie-bloomberg ... 40189.html

More generally, there is a lot of conflating, without any nuance, the difference between pure socialism and the European model of democratic socialism Sanders talks about constantly. Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Japan etc. all have such a system despite private companies, private employment, and yes, some wealthy people. Sanders has never denied those are features of that model. As such, this statement of Bloomberg's was a mischaracterization: “The best-known socialist in the country is a millionaire with three homes,” - sure, that would be unusual for a real socialist, like Leon Trotsky, but not at all for a democratic socialist in any of the above countries with a long career. No hypocrisy, unless you completely misunderstand what kind of 'socialism' is being discussed.

https://news.yahoo.com/bernie-bloomberg ... 40189.html


Yes, saying she is a capitalist and I am not, is basically saying I am not a capitalist. You quoted that. He said that he isnt a capitalist. What more can be explained?

Complete hypocrisy since it was capitalism that allowed him to buy 3 homes, and be a millionaire. Don't know how can you not do those things and not be a capitalist. He engaged in the free market, and made money and accumulated wealth in order to acquire private property and equity. Don't know how you are able to spin this some other way.


You have not replied to what my post actually said. I provided his quote because you claimed he said 'he hasn't a capitalist bone', when that wasn't the quote. He was responding to Warren's categorical statement about herself, and answered that he is not that. That doesn't automatically mean he's 100% against any form of private property or business transaction, otherwise he wouldn't support manufacturing workers, farmers, the transportation industry, the ability to own apartment buildings or homes, etc. Your last part about sharing homes is 100% non sequitur.

There is no spin - you are talking about some kind of socialism where there is a command economy and state control of all means of production. That is not what most countries utilizing democratic socialist values are doing. I suggest reading the last paragraph of the previous post again (and then again).
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:39 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

This is why providing sources and fact-checking is necessary because several of your comments are misconstrued or outright misquoted.

Sanders did not say he 'hasn't a single capitalist bone', what he said was:

"Elizabeth, I think, as you know, has said that she is a capitalist through her bones. I’m not.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... ist-im-not

Sanders did not say the comment about his homes was a 'cheap shot' either, that was in response to Bloomberg's characterization of democratic socialism as being on par with communism, which is obviously a blatant economic and historical lie. I'd say Sanders was being congenial by only calling it a cheap shot.

“We’re not going to throw out capitalism,” the former mayor continued. “We’ve already tried that. Other countries tried that. It was called communism and it just didn’t work.”

“Let’s talk about democratic socialism, not communism, Mr. Bloomberg,” he said. “That’s a cheap shot.”


https://news.yahoo.com/bernie-bloomberg ... 40189.html

More generally, there is a lot of conflating, without any nuance, the difference between pure socialism and the European model of democratic socialism Sanders talks about constantly. Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Japan etc. all have such a system despite private companies, private employment, and yes, some wealthy people. Sanders has never denied those are features of that model. As such, this statement of Bloomberg's was a mischaracterization: “The best-known socialist in the country is a millionaire with three homes,” - sure, that would be unusual for a real socialist, like Leon Trotsky, but not at all for a democratic socialist in any of the above countries with a long career. No hypocrisy, unless you completely misunderstand what kind of 'socialism' is being discussed.

https://news.yahoo.com/bernie-bloomberg ... 40189.html


Yes, saying she is a capitalist and I am not, is basically saying I am not a capitalist. You quoted that. He said that he isnt a capitalist. What more can be explained?

Complete hypocrisy since it was capitalism that allowed him to buy 3 homes, and be a millionaire. Don't know how can you not do those things and not be a capitalist. He engaged in the free market, and made money and accumulated wealth in order to acquire private property and equity. Don't know how you are able to spin this some other way.


You have not replied to what my post actually said. I provided his quote because you claimed he said 'he hasn't a capitalist bone', when that wasn't the quote. He was responding to Warren's categorical statement about herself, and answered that he is not that. That doesn't automatically mean he's 100% against any form of private property or business transaction, otherwise he wouldn't support manufacturing workers, farmers, the transportation industry, the ability to own apartment buildings or homes, etc. Your last part about sharing homes is 100% non sequitur.

There is no spin - you are talking about some kind of socialism where there is a command economy and state control of all means of production. That is not what most countries utilizing democratic socialist values are doing. I suggest reading the last paragraph of the previous post again (and then again).


The man says he is not a capitalist, according to your citation. What more can it say about the hypocrisy of being a millionaire who owns 3 homes. Tell me how many 'democratic socialist' of Europe who never had a job other than politics own 3 homes and are millionaires?
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:43 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Yes, saying she is a capitalist and I am not, is basically saying I am not a capitalist. You quoted that. He said that he isnt a capitalist. What more can be explained?

Complete hypocrisy since it was capitalism that allowed him to buy 3 homes, and be a millionaire. Don't know how can you not do those things and not be a capitalist. He engaged in the free market, and made money and accumulated wealth in order to acquire private property and equity. Don't know how you are able to spin this some other way.


You have not replied to what my post actually said. I provided his quote because you claimed he said 'he hasn't a capitalist bone', when that wasn't the quote. He was responding to Warren's categorical statement about herself, and answered that he is not that. That doesn't automatically mean he's 100% against any form of private property or business transaction, otherwise he wouldn't support manufacturing workers, farmers, the transportation industry, the ability to own apartment buildings or homes, etc. Your last part about sharing homes is 100% non sequitur.

There is no spin - you are talking about some kind of socialism where there is a command economy and state control of all means of production. That is not what most countries utilizing democratic socialist values are doing. I suggest reading the last paragraph of the previous post again (and then again).


The man says he is not a capitalist, according to your citation. What more can it say about the hypocrisy of being a millionaire who owns 3 homes. Tell me how many 'democratic socialist' of Europe who never had a job other than politics own 3 homes and are millionaires?


That reply is both a straw man and a false dichotomy. Perhaps this would help:

Image
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:49 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

You have not replied to what my post actually said. I provided his quote because you claimed he said 'he hasn't a capitalist bone', when that wasn't the quote. He was responding to Warren's categorical statement about herself, and answered that he is not that. That doesn't automatically mean he's 100% against any form of private property or business transaction, otherwise he wouldn't support manufacturing workers, farmers, the transportation industry, the ability to own apartment buildings or homes, etc. Your last part about sharing homes is 100% non sequitur.

There is no spin - you are talking about some kind of socialism where there is a command economy and state control of all means of production. That is not what most countries utilizing democratic socialist values are doing. I suggest reading the last paragraph of the previous post again (and then again).


The man says he is not a capitalist, according to your citation. What more can it say about the hypocrisy of being a millionaire who owns 3 homes. Tell me how many 'democratic socialist' of Europe who never had a job other than politics own 3 homes and are millionaires?


That reply is both a straw man and a false dichotomy. Perhaps this would help:

Image


You engage on a 'free market-capitalist' society and you may have a chance to make your way up the ladder. Bernie is part of the 1%, he made his millions in part by releasing a book and earning money from the sales of the book, book that allowed him to fully participate in the market of voluntary exchange among people, and as a result he became more wealthy. That's capitalism for you.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/ ... re-1276928

Again, tell me of any European 'democratic socialist' who has never had a job outside of politics and is a millionaire with 3 homes one of which is a summer lake house?
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
apodino
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:53 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
apodino wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its unfortunate, but the only man who really had a chance at beating Trump was Biden, but the impeachment saga had only one casualty, and that was Biden, not Trump, since his approval numbers have kept steady and higher than before impeachment: https://news.gallup.com/poll/286280/tru ... teady.aspx

Biden was likely weakened by the constant news of his son on the Ukraine scandal, even if Democrats 'intent' was impeaching or at least 'wounding' Trump, it only killed Biden's chances and their only best chance on the 2020 election. And now the Dem's have Socialist Bernie as the front-runner, and seems nothing will stop him. It may also cost the Dem's down-ballot races, possibly the house... lets see.


I completely disagree with your first paragraph. I think absolutely Bernie Sanders can beat Trump. Bernie has an incredible base of support and if he is the nominee, he would draw a lot of new voters in, and I think this would counter trump. One of the big reasons Trump was elected is voters wanted to give a big middle finger to the establishment, and the same thing on the Democrat side is propelling Bernie to the nomination. One sure way Democrats can assure Trump's reelection is for Bernie to go into the convention in Milwaukee with the most delegates and for someone else to walk out the nominee. Nothing would piss off Sanders supporters more than this, and if somehow the man who walks out of Milwaukee ends up being Bloomberg, this is a disaster waiting to happen.

With the majority of voters in the primaries breaking for the moderates clear and away (and all the polling thus far confirming the strong majority of Democrats preferring moderates and NOT revolution), I think it would be a disaster letting Bernie walk out of the convention with the nomination. Could not disagree more that Bernie could beat Trump...he'll scare off moderate and conservative Democrats as well as independents and we get 4 more years of Trump-- just remember that Hillary did actually win the popular vote against Trump.

Primaries are supposed to mete out and lay bare weaknesses/drawbacks in candidates which logically allows the surviving one the best chance of standing in an election. Bernie has thus far skated by with little to no scrutiny/push-back on his record or policies, and that simply will not be the case in the general election. If Sanders becomes the nominee, and the economy is still basically good come November it's a hands-down Trump win. As much as I hate him and want him out of office, he's a known quantity...moderates and independents either stay home or swallow the bitter pill of 4 more years of an evil they at least know versus an unknown Leftist version of Trump.


You are making the same argument that the mainstream media outlets are making (Media outlets that clearly are in the tank for anyone other than sanders). The premise behind it is if some of the moderates get out of the race everyone will coalesce around the one moderate left. I don't know if you or anyone on here watches the Rising on thehill.com (Best Political webcast out there by far, its hosted by Krystal Ball, a progressive, and Saagar Enjeti, a conservative, and if you watch just one show you will learn what political discussion and debates should be about) but they have been reporting extensively on this. If you look at actual polling data. For people supporting a moderate candidate (Such as Biden or Buttigieg) if their candidate doesn't win guess who their second choice is? Not another moderate but Bernie. And Bernie polls as well against Trump if not better than some of the other moderate candidates out there. For starters, Buttigieg and Klobuchar cannot get name recognition in the black community at all. Secondly, the grassroots support that Bernie has actually translates to other voters. Grassroots people talk to each other in ways that the Elitists don't realize. This is why a ground game matters. Sanders has the best ground game in the business by far and its not even close. And the establishment doesn't realize how hungry the country is for populists politicians. Its why Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez got elected out of nowhere.

I remember four years ago we were having a similar discussion. The entire republican establishment wanted to stop Trump but there were too many establishment candidates. As they started falling, their support ended up going to Trump and no one united around a not Trump figure. We are seeing the same thing play out. One big difference between 2016 and 2020 is the fact that the democratic primary process does not include winner take all states, where the Republican primary did, which allowed Trump to walk into Cleveland with a majority of delegates. Sanders is much less likely to go into Milwaukee with a Majority of Delegates.

As far as your last point, Trump does have the power of the incumbency but absolutely Sanders can win. I suspect the Moderate voters who cant stand Trump can would be more likely to vote for Sanders than Trump, because the top priority of most of these people is get Trump out at any cost. Sanders is one candidate who can win over the Union voters in PA, MI and WI, voters who went for Trump four years ago and were the ones who sent Trump to the Oval Office. Again, if Sanders has a plurality of Delgates going into the convention and does not walk out the nominee, the Sanders supporters and many other populists will conclude that the system is rigged and that their vote doesn't matter. That leads to people being fed up, they stay home, and presto, Trump gets four more years. To take this a step further, if Bloomberg does succeed in buying the nomination, many people out there who cant stand Trump will actually vote for him over Bloomberg just because they realize how dangerous a Billionaire basically buying the Oval Office and everyone in the establishment is to our democracy.
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:59 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

The man says he is not a capitalist, according to your citation. What more can it say about the hypocrisy of being a millionaire who owns 3 homes. Tell me how many 'democratic socialist' of Europe who never had a job other than politics own 3 homes and are millionaires?


That reply is both a straw man and a false dichotomy. Perhaps this would help:

Image


You engage on a 'free market-capitalist' society and you may have a chance to make your way up the ladder. Bernie is part of the 1%, he made his millions in part by releasing a book and earning money from the sales of the book, book that allowed him to fully participate in the market of voluntary exchange among people, and as a result he became more wealthy. That's capitalism for you.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/ ... re-1276928

Again, tell me of any European 'democratic socialist' who has never had a job outside of politics and is a millionaire with 3 homes one of which is a summer lake house?


My statement was that a charge of hypocrisy is only relevant if dealing with a socialist or socialism advocate from a system with a command economy and state ownership of all means of production, where there aren't private property rights or any free transactions between individuals. Sanders respects and borrows policy ideals from systems where that is obviously not the case. Any response that doesn't deal with that point is off-base.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:03 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:

That reply is both a straw man and a false dichotomy. Perhaps this would help:

Image


You engage on a 'free market-capitalist' society and you may have a chance to make your way up the ladder. Bernie is part of the 1%, he made his millions in part by releasing a book and earning money from the sales of the book, book that allowed him to fully participate in the market of voluntary exchange among people, and as a result he became more wealthy. That's capitalism for you.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/ ... re-1276928

Again, tell me of any European 'democratic socialist' who has never had a job outside of politics and is a millionaire with 3 homes one of which is a summer lake house?


My statement was that a charge of hypocrisy is only relevant if dealing with a socialist or socialism advocate from a system with a command economy and state ownership of all means of production, where there aren't private property rights or any free transactions between individuals. Sanders respects and borrows policy ideals from systems where that is obviously not the case. Any response that doesn't deal with that point is off-base.


Ok, but saying you are not a capitalist, and becoming wealthy because of capitalism, that's hypocrisy. Look all politicians are hypocrites, don't know why you believe Bernie isn't. He has been a politician all his life. Yes he has been fairly consistent with many things, but on this he is clearly an hypocrite.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 3:05 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

You engage on a 'free market-capitalist' society and you may have a chance to make your way up the ladder. Bernie is part of the 1%, he made his millions in part by releasing a book and earning money from the sales of the book, book that allowed him to fully participate in the market of voluntary exchange among people, and as a result he became more wealthy. That's capitalism for you.

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/ ... re-1276928

Again, tell me of any European 'democratic socialist' who has never had a job outside of politics and is a millionaire with 3 homes one of which is a summer lake house?


My statement was that a charge of hypocrisy is only relevant if dealing with a socialist or socialism advocate from a system with a command economy and state ownership of all means of production, where there aren't private property rights or any free transactions between individuals. Sanders respects and borrows policy ideals from systems where that is obviously not the case. Any response that doesn't deal with that point is off-base.


Ok, but saying you are not a capitalist, and becoming wealthy because of capitalism, that's hypocrisy. Look all politicians are hypocrites, don't know why you believe Bernie isn't. He has been a politician all his life. Yes he has been fairly consistent with many things, but on this he is clearly an hypocrite.


Already addressed in reply 216. I suggest reading the last paragraph (yet) again.
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StarAC17
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:11 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
apodino wrote:

I completely disagree with your first paragraph. I think absolutely Bernie Sanders can beat Trump. Bernie has an incredible base of support and if he is the nominee, he would draw a lot of new voters in, and I think this would counter trump. One of the big reasons Trump was elected is voters wanted to give a big middle finger to the establishment, and the same thing on the Democrat side is propelling Bernie to the nomination. One sure way Democrats can assure Trump's reelection is for Bernie to go into the convention in Milwaukee with the most delegates and for someone else to walk out the nominee. Nothing would piss off Sanders supporters more than this, and if somehow the man who walks out of Milwaukee ends up being Bloomberg, this is a disaster waiting to happen.



This all is still a big unknown. The US has never nominated for president a far leftist or socialist as a candidate of a major party. So we don't know yet what will happen.

But if he is the nominee, we saw on the debate stage a glimpse of what's coming, Bloomberg challenged him on being a socialist, saying he owns 3 homes, and is a millionaire 'socialist', which is a huge hypocrisy considering he says he hasn't a single 'capitalist' bone in him. I doubt you can ever have 3 homes, and be a millionaire without being a capitalist, but hey, that will be a tough one. He complained saying it was a 'cheap shot'. Good luck with Trump saying to his face "Communist Bernie" and unearthing clips of him praising the Soviet Union and Socialist dictators. That's coming.

It will be a huge challenge, but who knows what can happen.


When democrats win there is passion around their candidate, agree or disagree with Bernie's positions but there is a passion around him as there was with Bill Clinton and Obama. Bernie has that over any of the current candidates out there. Gore, Kerry and Hillary lost because most of the public was like ehhh.

Bernie's big mistake is calling himself a socialist when he is clearly not one. I would argue he is as left wing as Eisenhower who was a Republican in the 50's and what he is advocating for is what every developed country has and as Van Jones said on Bill Maher last week, he is campaigning on the things that American's used to to have. 40-50 years ago a college education was affordable and healthcare was far more accessible to average citizens and the poor than it is today. Also the GOP called Obama a socialist in 2012 and how did that go?

He has no means of ceasing the means of production from the private sector. What he wants is that everyone has access to healthcare and education and in the richest country in the world. He wants to actually address climate change through infrastructure and innovation (which the free market is silently doing anyway).

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Its unfortunate, but the only man who really had a chance at beating Trump was Biden, but the impeachment saga had only one casualty, and that was Biden, not Trump, since his approval numbers have kept steady and higher than before impeachment: https://news.gallup.com/poll/286280/tru ... teady.aspx

Biden was likely weakened by the constant news of his son on the Ukraine scandal, even if Democrats 'intent' was impeaching or at least 'wounding' Trump, it only killed Biden's chances and their only best chance on the 2020 election. And now the Dem's have Socialist Bernie as the front-runner, and seems nothing will stop him. It may also cost the Dem's down-ballot races, possibly the house... lets see.


2016 Biden would have destroyed Trump. 2020 Biden struggles to complete a sentence and lashes out when questioned, yes he was good on Tuesday but I would compare him to Tom Brady this past NFL season. There are flashes of his greatness but it isn't sustained over the long haul.

About the fear of down ballot races, if you have democratic congressional candidates openly opposing Bernie then I could see that being an issue because wishy-washy democrats are the ones that lose, I think many of those dems are going to be primaried or challenged enough that they have to move to the more progressive side to win their primaries.
But if those reps actually pay attention to the issues they have the voters on their side as Bernie's positions poll well with the American public. Sanders is popular and trustworthy to a lot of the American public.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... 754500002/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... expanding/
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AirWorthy99
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:19 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
Also the GOP called Obama a socialist in 2012 and how did that go?



Right, but this time it is Bernie himself saying he is a socialist. He is admitting it.

As for his popularity, look at what American's think about socialism:

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders is rising in the polls among Democrats, but questions about his electability against President Trump persist because he self-identifies as a democratic socialist.

A new NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll backs up the idea that the label could hurt him.

Asked about their impression of socialism, 28% of adults said they have a favorable view, while 58% said they had an unfavorable one.


https://www.npr.org/2020/02/19/80704794 ... -americans
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
flyguy89
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:34 pm

apodino wrote:
The premise behind it is if some of the moderates get out of the race everyone will coalesce around the one moderate left. I don't know if you or anyone on here watches the Rising on thehill.com (Best Political webcast out there by far, its hosted by Krystal Ball, a progressive, and Saagar Enjeti, a conservative, and if you watch just one show you will learn what political discussion and debates should be about) but they have been reporting extensively on this. If you look at actual polling data. For people supporting a moderate candidate (Such as Biden or Buttigieg) if their candidate doesn't win guess who their second choice is? Not another moderate but Bernie.

Not all, just most. There's never 100% overlap, but the moderate/centrist lane is such a wide berth that it doesn't change the math much that some will break for Bernie. Most will move on to the next centrist candidate...and once again, Hillary did actually win millions more votes than Trump in spite of running a terrible campaign, and in spite of all the crazy Bernie Bros who voted for Trump.

apodino wrote:
And Bernie polls as well against Trump if not better than some of the other moderate candidates out there.

Head-to-head match up polls at this juncture really tell us nothing for precisely the reason I mentioned earlier, neither he nor his policies have received any type of scrutiny to the level of what will be the case in a general election.

apodino wrote:
Secondly, the grassroots support that Bernie has actually translates to other voters.

Yet for all of that, he always hits a hard ceiling at 20-25%.

apodino wrote:
I suspect the Moderate voters who cant stand Trump can would be more likely to vote for Sanders than Trump, because the top priority of most of these people is get Trump out at any cost.

I suspect they stay home, go third party, or pull the trigger for the trigger for the incumbent. Yes they want to Trump gone, but not at tr he cost of Sanders.

apodino wrote:
Sanders is one candidate who can win over the Union voters in PA, MI and WI, voters who went for Trump four years ago and were the ones who sent Trump to the Oval Office.

And yet he's the one candidate who's been the most divisive to organized labor.
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:55 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Head-to-head match up polls at this juncture really tell us nothing for precisely the reason I mentioned earlier, neither he nor his policies have received any type of scrutiny to the level of what will be the case in a general election.


I think you raise a good point here for those who reference polls on Bernie's popularity. Not much scrutiny nor time has been dedicated to his past and much less to his proposed policies. He hasn't even said how much and how would he pay for most of his known proposals.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
StarAC17
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:14 pm

apodino wrote:

You are making the same argument that the mainstream media outlets are making (Media outlets that clearly are in the tank for anyone other than sanders). The premise behind it is if some of the moderates get out of the race everyone will coalesce around the one moderate left. I don't know if you or anyone on here watches the Rising on thehill.com (Best Political webcast out there by far, its hosted by Krystal Ball, a progressive, and Saagar Enjeti, a conservative, and if you watch just one show you will learn what political discussion and debates should be about) but they have been reporting extensively on this. If you look at actual polling data. For people supporting a moderate candidate (Such as Biden or Buttigieg) if their candidate doesn't win guess who their second choice is? Not another moderate but Bernie. And Bernie polls as well against Trump if not better than some of the other moderate candidates out there. For starters, Buttigieg and Klobuchar cannot get name recognition in the black community at all. Secondly, the grassroots support that Bernie has actually translates to other voters. Grassroots people talk to each other in ways that the Elitists don't realize. This is why a ground game matters. Sanders has the best ground game in the business by far and its not even close. And the establishment doesn't realize how hungry the country is for populists politicians. Its why Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez got elected out of nowhere.



Rising is great and if you every want me to vote for a conservative give me a person like Sagaar to vote for and they both get it.

I am waiting for their book to be available on Audible.
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StarAC17
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:18 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
Not all, just most. There's never 100% overlap, but the moderate/centrist lane is such a wide berth that it doesn't change the math much that some will break for Bernie. Most will move on to the next centrist candidate...and once again, Hillary did actually win millions more votes than Trump in spite of running a terrible campaign, and in spite of all the crazy Bernie Bros who voted for Trump.


This lie needs to be put to bed. Bernie did 39 rallies for Hillary in 2016. Hillary did 12 for Obama in 2008.

More Hillary supporters in 2008 voted for McCain in 2008 than Bernie supporters voted for Trump in 2016.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... ters-study
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seb146
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:20 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Head-to-head match up polls at this juncture really tell us nothing for precisely the reason I mentioned earlier, neither he nor his policies have received any type of scrutiny to the level of what will be the case in a general election.


I think you raise a good point here for those who reference polls on Bernie's popularity. Not much scrutiny nor time has been dedicated to his past and much less to his proposed policies. He hasn't even said how much and how would he pay for most of his known proposals.


A simple search reveals how Bernie would pay for his proposals

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download ... nline=file
https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download ... -financing
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... -loan-debt

As for his past, I suppose you are looking for scandal. Like failed casinos, failed airlines, failed colleges, prostitution, failed non-profits, multiple bankruptcies, things like that? Go to your favorite search engine and start typing. It is really getting tiresome to do someone else's homework for them, especially when they just make stuff up and continue to defend it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
flyguy89
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:58 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Not all, just most. There's never 100% overlap, but the moderate/centrist lane is such a wide berth that it doesn't change the math much that some will break for Bernie. Most will move on to the next centrist candidate...and once again, Hillary did actually win millions more votes than Trump in spite of running a terrible campaign, and in spite of all the crazy Bernie Bros who voted for Trump.


This lie needs to be put to bed. Bernie did 39 rallies for Hillary in 2016. Hillary did 12 for Obama in 2008.

More Hillary supporters in 2008 voted for McCain in 2008 than Bernie supporters voted for Trump in 2016.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... ters-study

There's no lie, I never claimed they all voted for Trump. That said, anecdotally I have met a handful of hard-left Sanders supporters who said they voted for Trump.


seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Head-to-head match up polls at this juncture really tell us nothing for precisely the reason I mentioned earlier, neither he nor his policies have received any type of scrutiny to the level of what will be the case in a general election.


I think you raise a good point here for those who reference polls on Bernie's popularity. Not much scrutiny nor time has been dedicated to his past and much less to his proposed policies. He hasn't even said how much and how would he pay for most of his known proposals.


A simple search reveals how Bernie would pay for his proposals

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download ... nline=file
https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download ... -financing
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... -loan-debt

As for his past, I suppose you are looking for scandal. Like failed casinos, failed airlines, failed colleges, prostitution, failed non-profits, multiple bankruptcies, things like that? Go to your favorite search engine and start typing. It is really getting tiresome to do someone else's homework for them, especially when they just make stuff up and continue to defend it.

Even the most generous independent analyses pin 20-40% of his plans as being completely unfunded. Sanders taxing and spending policies make even Jeremy Corbyn look like a Tory.
 
apodino
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:08 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
apodino wrote:
The premise behind it is if some of the moderates get out of the race everyone will coalesce around the one moderate left. I don't know if you or anyone on here watches the Rising on thehill.com (Best Political webcast out there by far, its hosted by Krystal Ball, a progressive, and Saagar Enjeti, a conservative, and if you watch just one show you will learn what political discussion and debates should be about) but they have been reporting extensively on this. If you look at actual polling data. For people supporting a moderate candidate (Such as Biden or Buttigieg) if their candidate doesn't win guess who their second choice is? Not another moderate but Bernie.

Not all, just most. There's never 100% overlap, but the moderate/centrist lane is such a wide berth that it doesn't change the math much that some will break for Bernie. Most will move on to the next centrist candidate...and once again, Hillary did actually win millions more votes than Trump in spite of running a terrible campaign, and in spite of all the crazy Bernie Bros who voted for Trump.

We aren't talking about Hillary and the general, we are talking about the primary. And if you want to go down that road, more republicans voted for someone else other than Trump in the primary but Trump still won the nomination.

apodino wrote:
And Bernie polls as well against Trump if not better than some of the other moderate candidates out there.

Head-to-head match up polls at this juncture really tell us nothing for precisely the reason I mentioned earlier, neither he nor his policies have received any type of scrutiny to the level of what will be the case in a general election.

A couple of points on that. One is he has been attacked at the debates over this, but has largely gone unscathed. Secondly, Trump is not the best candidate to scrutinize on policy. That's not his style. He will win or lose based on personality. Hillary tried a Policy centric campaign and it didn't work. While Bernie does have policy proposals, he also has a message that resonates with the type of voters Hillary did not.

apodino wrote:
Secondly, the grassroots support that Bernie has actually translates to other voters.

Yet for all of that, he always hits a hard ceiling at 20-25%.

Does he really? First of all there are still seven candidates in the race. No one is going to be able to garner 30 percent with that many candidates. So lets say Klobuchar, Buttigieg, and Warren drop out after super Tuesday. Do you think Biden and Bloomberg will get their support. I suspect in a three person race with Bernie, Biden, and Bloomberg, that Bernie could easily hit 50 percent. Not to mention Nevada polls showing he is above 30 percent, and that he is leading in a majority of the Super Tuesday states.

apodino wrote:
I suspect the Moderate voters who cant stand Trump can would be more likely to vote for Sanders than Trump, because the top priority of most of these people is get Trump out at any cost.

I suspect they stay home, go third party, or pull the trigger for the trigger for the incumbent. Yes they want to Trump gone, but not at tr he cost of Sanders.

This is the argument both the establishment and the mainstream media are trying to make. And this is an insult to the voters and shows that both are way out of touch. The nominee that will cause voters to act as you say they will is Bloomberg, not Sanders.

apodino wrote:
Sanders is one candidate who can win over the Union voters in PA, MI and WI, voters who went for Trump four years ago and were the ones who sent Trump to the Oval Office.

And yet he's the one candidate who's been the most divisive to organized labor.

Again, I raise the BS flag. If you look at his record, no candidate in the field has been more friendly to organized labor than Bernie. The divisiveness you speak of is because the Union Bosses have ties to establishment politicians and like the establishment, they fear losing power because of the views of their own membership and they don't want to destroy the ties and influence they currently have with the establishment. The Culinary Union in Nevada claims against Bernie are nothing but manufactured scare tactics from Union Bosses.
 
apodino
Topic Author
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 6:12 pm

One last thought on Bernie. This was Krystal Ball's monologue on the Rising today about Bernie. This is exactly what I have been saying lately.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl8TqtyXHro
 
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Tugger
Posts: 9838
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 7:33 pm

apodino wrote:
If you look at his record, no candidate in the field has been more friendly to organized labor than Bernie. The divisiveness you speak of is because the Union Bosses have ties to establishment politicians and like the establishment, they fear losing power because of the views of their own membership and they don't want to destroy the ties and influence they currently have with the establishment. The Culinary Union in Nevada claims against Bernie are nothing but manufactured scare tactics from Union Bosses.

Hmmm, from what I have read, the reason for the Sanders/Union's conflict has been the fact that Sanders will push everyone to a ACA type health system at minimum (since it already exists) and more preferably to a single payer ("Medicare for all") ending or punishing any "Cadillac heath plans" such as the stronger unions often have.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
flyguy89
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:13 pm

apodino wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
apodino wrote:
The premise behind it is if some of the moderates get out of the race everyone will coalesce around the one moderate left. I don't know if you or anyone on here watches the Rising on thehill.com (Best Political webcast out there by far, its hosted by Krystal Ball, a progressive, and Saagar Enjeti, a conservative, and if you watch just one show you will learn what political discussion and debates should be about) but they have been reporting extensively on this. If you look at actual polling data. For people supporting a moderate candidate (Such as Biden or Buttigieg) if their candidate doesn't win guess who their second choice is? Not another moderate but Bernie.

Not all, just most. There's never 100% overlap, but the moderate/centrist lane is such a wide berth that it doesn't change the math much that some will break for Bernie. Most will move on to the next centrist candidate...and once again, Hillary did actually win millions more votes than Trump in spite of running a terrible campaign, and in spite of all the crazy Bernie Bros who voted for Trump.

We aren't talking about Hillary and the general, we are talking about the primary. And if you want to go down that road, more republicans voted for someone else other than Trump in the primary but Trump still won the nomination.

I was talking about the primary. My point about the general was that even in spite her troubles in the primary she was still able to capture the popular vote.

apodino wrote:
apodino wrote:
And Bernie polls as well against Trump if not better than some of the other moderate candidates out there.

Head-to-head match up polls at this juncture really tell us nothing for precisely the reason I mentioned earlier, neither he nor his policies have received any type of scrutiny to the level of what will be the case in a general election.

A couple of points on that. One is he has been attacked at the debates over this, but has largely gone unscathed.

Not even close. The guy has been treated with kid gloves up to this point (on-stage hugs with Biden, no serious criticisms/attacks on his ideas/background, etc). We got a bit of taste from Bloomberg in the last debate, but that was the first time in any of the debates I've seen any of the candidates challenge Sanders in a direct way.

apodino"Secondly, Trump is not the best candidate to scrutinize on policy. That's not his style. He will win or lose based on personality. Hillary tried a Policy centric campaign and it didn't work. While Bernie does have policy proposals, he also has a message that resonates with the type of voters Hillary did not.[/quote]
I'm not so sure. A lot of Sanders's policies don't boil down to wonkish hair-splitting semantics, they're major proposals making them big targets vulnerable to scrutiny/attack.

[quote="apodino wrote:
apodino wrote:
Secondly, the grassroots support that Bernie has actually translates to other voters.

Yet for all of that, he always hits a hard ceiling at 20-25%.

Does he really?

Thus far, yes. The candidates that have dropped out didn't create any movement for him. Everything else has been shuffling of numbers between the moderates/centrists.

apodino wrote:
Not to mention Nevada polls showing he is above 30 percent, and that he is leading in a majority of the Super Tuesday states.

Sanders was also at almost 30% in New Hampshire and ended up winning by only 1%.

apodino wrote:
apodino wrote:
I suspect the Moderate voters who cant stand Trump can would be more likely to vote for Sanders than Trump, because the top priority of most of these people is get Trump out at any cost.

I suspect they stay home, go third party, or pull the trigger for the trigger for the incumbent. Yes they want to Trump gone, but not at tr he cost of Sanders.

This is the argument both the establishment and the mainstream media are trying to make. And this is an insult to the voters and shows that both are way out of touch. The nominee that will cause voters to act as you say they will is Bloomberg, not Sanders.

I disagree. I really don't think Bloomberg will be a factor. I don't see what's insulting about it...you have two big turds running for president, a lot people are going to stay home.

apodino wrote:
apodino wrote:
Sanders is one candidate who can win over the Union voters in PA, MI and WI, voters who went for Trump four years ago and were the ones who sent Trump to the Oval Office.

And yet he's the one candidate who's been the most divisive to organized labor.

The Culinary Union in Nevada claims against Bernie are nothing but manufactured scare tactics from Union Bosses.

Dismiss it away however you'd like, but the reality still remains that union support has been factionalized.
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10962
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:02 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Also the GOP called Obama a socialist in 2012 and how did that go?



Right, but this time it is Bernie himself saying he is a socialist. He is admitting it.

As for his popularity, look at what American's think about socialism:

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders is rising in the polls among Democrats, but questions about his electability against President Trump persist because he self-identifies as a democratic socialist.

A new NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll backs up the idea that the label could hurt him.

Asked about their impression of socialism, 28% of adults said they have a favorable view, while 58% said they had an unfavorable one.


https://www.npr.org/2020/02/19/80704794 ... -americans


Are you differentiating with democratic socialism or are you unable to respond to rebuttals to your unsupported hypocrisy claim?
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
AirWorthy99
Posts: 721
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:57 pm

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:09 pm

Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
Also the GOP called Obama a socialist in 2012 and how did that go?



Right, but this time it is Bernie himself saying he is a socialist. He is admitting it.

As for his popularity, look at what American's think about socialism:

Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders is rising in the polls among Democrats, but questions about his electability against President Trump persist because he self-identifies as a democratic socialist.

A new NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist poll backs up the idea that the label could hurt him.

Asked about their impression of socialism, 28% of adults said they have a favorable view, while 58% said they had an unfavorable one.


https://www.npr.org/2020/02/19/80704794 ... -americans


Are you differentiating with democratic socialism or are you unable to respond to rebuttals to your unsupported hypocrisy claim?


You think most Americans will know how to 'differentiate' between the different 'forms' of socialism? You think Sanders would be able to educate millions of Americans in 7 months on which socialism is 'good' and which one is 'bad'?

And about unsupported, the man said because you quoted him, that he isn't a capitalist. Whether or not he is contradicting himself or being an hypocrite because he is a millionaire and has 3 homes, that's up to the voters to decide.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Aaron747
Posts: 10962
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:12 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aaron747 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

Right, but this time it is Bernie himself saying he is a socialist. He is admitting it.

As for his popularity, look at what American's think about socialism:



https://www.npr.org/2020/02/19/80704794 ... -americans


Are you differentiating with democratic socialism or are you unable to respond to rebuttals to your unsupported hypocrisy claim?


You think most Americans will know how to 'differentiate' between the different 'forms' of socialism? You think Sanders would be able to educate millions of Americans in 7 months on which socialism is 'good' and which one is 'bad'?

And about unsupported, the man said because you quoted him, that he isn't a capitalist. Whether or not he is contradicting himself or being an hypocrite because he is a millionaire and has 3 homes, that's up to the voters to decide.


That sounds like a partial walkback. Logic is a beautiful thing. People who have reasonable heads on their shoulders and are capable of seeing reality won’t automatically assume Sanders is a hypocrite since his speeches are never about private property rights.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
NIKV69
Posts: 13182
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:49 pm

flyguy89 wrote:
I disagree. I really don't think Bloomberg will be a factor. I don't see what's insulting about it...you have two big turds running for president, a lot people are going to stay home.



I would wait for Super Tuesday before you make this statement. I am really shocked that the media is ignoring the fact that Mayor Pete is leading in delegates and keeps saying Bernie is the front runner when he isn't. I am doubting these polls saying Bernie is ahead in Nevada because all working people here are afraid to death of him. I really think the DNC better have a plan for the convention because Bloomberg just released 3 women from their NDAs and if nothing comes of Warren's request to hear from those women Bloomberg can come back. He has all the money and the minority vote so he is going to be a factor.
I am the Googlizer!!!
 
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seb146
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:40 am

flyguy89 wrote:
StarAC17 wrote:
flyguy89 wrote:
Not all, just most. There's never 100% overlap, but the moderate/centrist lane is such a wide berth that it doesn't change the math much that some will break for Bernie. Most will move on to the next centrist candidate...and once again, Hillary did actually win millions more votes than Trump in spite of running a terrible campaign, and in spite of all the crazy Bernie Bros who voted for Trump.


This lie needs to be put to bed. Bernie did 39 rallies for Hillary in 2016. Hillary did 12 for Obama in 2008.

More Hillary supporters in 2008 voted for McCain in 2008 than Bernie supporters voted for Trump in 2016.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... ters-study

There's no lie, I never claimed they all voted for Trump. That said, anecdotally I have met a handful of hard-left Sanders supporters who said they voted for Trump.


Because they bought into the narrative that Hillary kept Bernie out of the race. Which was not true at all. Some Bernie supporters voted third party or not at all. Others voted for the current occupant out of spite.

flyguy89 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:

I think you raise a good point here for those who reference polls on Bernie's popularity. Not much scrutiny nor time has been dedicated to his past and much less to his proposed policies. He hasn't even said how much and how would he pay for most of his known proposals.


A simple search reveals how Bernie would pay for his proposals

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download ... nline=file
https://www.sanders.senate.gov/download ... -financing
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... -loan-debt

As for his past, I suppose you are looking for scandal. Like failed casinos, failed airlines, failed colleges, prostitution, failed non-profits, multiple bankruptcies, things like that? Go to your favorite search engine and start typing. It is really getting tiresome to do someone else's homework for them, especially when they just make stuff up and continue to defend it.

Even the most generous independent analyses pin 20-40% of his plans as being completely unfunded. Sanders taxing and spending policies make even Jeremy Corbyn look like a Tory.


I am just tired of this right wing talking point of "we don't see it so it does not exist" and constantly posting fact after fact.

We have had low taxes for way too long. It is time to pay the piper. Deficit is out of control and so is the debt. This whole notion of spending with no taxation is insane. We currently have an administration that goes with plans but does not fund them at all. At least Sanders funds some portion of his plans.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 4880
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:05 am

Agreed, the spending should be eliminated. Problem solved. Neither party has been honest about the costs of “big government” for 85 years.
 
LittleFokker
Posts: 1191
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:33 am

NIKV69 wrote:
I am really shocked that the media is ignoring the fact that Mayor Pete is leading in delegates and keeps saying Bernie is the front runner when he isn't.


Because Pete went all in on the first two states, but has rotten support the rest of the country. He's still polling less at less than 10% nationally. I know his strategy was to win Iowa and hope that gives him enough notoriety to spur success in the other states, but that's an awful lot of people whose minds will have to change. His dismal support with voters of color also doesn't bode well for him. I think Nevada will provide a more clearer picture of where the primary stands than either Iowa or New Hampshire. I wouldn't be surprised if Warren finished 2nd after her debate performance - she has been most people's 2nd choice for the entire campaign, which is significant during caucuses and as others drop out.
"All human activities are doomed to failure." - Jean Paul Sartre
 
apodino
Topic Author
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:03 am

LittleFokker wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
I am really shocked that the media is ignoring the fact that Mayor Pete is leading in delegates and keeps saying Bernie is the front runner when he isn't.


Because Pete went all in on the first two states, but has rotten support the rest of the country. He's still polling less at less than 10% nationally. I know his strategy was to win Iowa and hope that gives him enough notoriety to spur success in the other states, but that's an awful lot of people whose minds will have to change. His dismal support with voters of color also doesn't bode well for him. I think Nevada will provide a more clearer picture of where the primary stands than either Iowa or New Hampshire. I wouldn't be surprised if Warren finished 2nd after her debate performance - she has been most people's 2nd choice for the entire campaign, which is significant during caucuses and as others drop out.


The only reason I don't see Warren finishing second is because almost 70,000 Nevada caucus goers early voted before her debate performance. The treatment of the minority staff in Nevada where 7 female staffers of color resigned is not going to help Warren, and she should have been pressed on this during the debate. Your analysis of Mayor Pete is spot on, and I don't see where he gets support from prior to Super Tuesday and even on Super Tuesday for that matter when Bloomberg joins the party on the ballot. I see Nevada as Bernie winning, Biden Second, and Warren third. Too many people have already voted in Nevada to allow Warren to finish second IMO.
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2175
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:07 am

More Hi-jinks from the Democratic apparatus:

Former Nevada caucus site leader quits after refusing to sign NDA over caucus technology

WaPo Video

https://youtu.be/K4_6dBbkLRw
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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seb146
Posts: 21665
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Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:36 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Agreed, the spending should be eliminated. Problem solved. Neither party has been honest about the costs of “big government” for 85 years.


The problem with this is that Republicans only care about debt and deficit when they are not in charge. It is the hot button, trigger issue for their base. But, when they are in charge, who cares? Why is it an issue? Why even talk about it? Maybe if Republicans were as concerned with debt and deficit when they are in charge as they claim to be when Democrats are in charge, I could get behind your proposal. Until then, forget it.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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seb146
Posts: 21665
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:39 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
More Hi-jinks from the Democratic apparatus:

Former Nevada caucus site leader quits after refusing to sign NDA over caucus technology

WaPo Video

https://youtu.be/K4_6dBbkLRw


Gasp and clutch the pearls! A Democrat taking responsibility for their party's action! Personal responsibility! Such horrible hi-jinks! Pointing out the fault in their own system!
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8894
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:28 am

seb146 wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
Agreed, the spending should be eliminated. Problem solved. Neither party has been honest about the costs of “big government” for 85 years.


The problem with this is that Republicans only care about debt and deficit when they are not in charge. It is the hot button, trigger issue for their base. But, when they are in charge, who cares? Why is it an issue? Why even talk about it? Maybe if Republicans were as concerned with debt and deficit when they are in charge as they claim to be when Democrats are in charge, I could get behind your proposal. Until then, forget it.

Exactly, the GOP that whines about the deficit add to the debt as shamelessly as the Democrats do. They do so in different ways but at the end of the day, it keeps growing and growing

To be fair, there are a handful of Republicans that are pretty good about the debt but they're a minority (votes get overridden) and I largely disagree with the way they want to go about cutting it.

It's a huge problem, people that are financially irresponsible and max out credit cards end up bankrupt. We're all headed that same directions and no one seems to care when it's their pet projects on the chopping block...
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 4880
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:36 pm

A president from the Democratic Party once said this in a veto message,

I can find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution, and I do not believe that the power and duty of the general government ought to be extended to the relief of individual suffering which is in no manner properly related to the public service or benefit. A prevalent tendency to disregard the limited mission of this power and duty should, I think, be steadfastly resisted, to the end that the lesson should be constantly enforced that, though the people support the government, the government should not support the people.

The friendliness and charity of our countrymen can always be relied upon to relieve their fellow citizens in misfortune. This has been repeatedly and quite lately demonstrated. Federal aid in such cases encourages the expectation of paternal care on the part of the government and weakens the sturdiness of our national character, while it prevents the indulgence among our people of that kindly sentiment and conduct which strengthens the bonds of a common brotherhood.


Another more recent Democratic President said this,

Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.


Today, politicians have reversed these arguments to our eternal shame.

GF
 
User avatar
DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2175
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Sat Feb 22, 2020 11:34 pm

seb146 wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
More Hi-jinks from the Democratic apparatus:

Former Nevada caucus site leader quits after refusing to sign NDA over caucus technology

WaPo Video

https://youtu.be/K4_6dBbkLRw


Gasp and clutch the pearls! A Democrat taking responsibility for their party's action! Personal responsibility! Such horrible hi-jinks! Pointing out the fault in their own system!


What??? The hi-jinks are not the guy quitting, but the actions that led him to quit.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: 2020 Democratic Primary Thread

Sun Feb 23, 2020 2:45 am

apodino wrote:
As for the debate last night, Bloomberg got crushed so it would logically seem that his momentum is stopped for now. Here are my thoughts on last night.

Bloomberg - That was terrible. Probably the worst performance I have seen on a debate stage since Stockdale in the 1992 VP debate. He was totally crushed, and he looked like an out of touch elitist who knows better than the voters. A lot of people may give Tom Perez some heat and rightly so. However, if Tom Perez realized last night was going to happen and changed the rules to lure Bloomberg in so he could be taken down, it was a stroke of genius on his part. The question is, how many people actually watched the debate last night, or did they not watch and are being charmed by his TV ads? If the latter, this man is dangerous. He is still getting endorsements, and almost seems to be buying off a majority of the Democratic establishment.


All his advertising got 20 million to tune in, I think a lot did to hear him. They got him doing a full faceplant. He sounded arrogant and condescending.

I feel like he won't get much support. A billionaire trying to buy the socialist vote, few will go there.

With the DNC's proportional representation once above 15%, someone at 30%, someone at 25% and someone at 18% will mean less than half of the delegates ends up with the winner. It will be a long spring. All but Bernie and Bloomberg are very short on cash right now, no money to do ads for super Tuesday.
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