AirWorthy99
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Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:06 pm

Senator Elizabeth Warren (D., Mass.) was confronted on the campaign trail earlier this week by a man who was angry about her plan to forgive all U.S. student debt because he feels it punishes people like himself who had saved up to pay for their child’s education so as not to burden them with loans.

“My daughter is in school, I saved all my money just to pay student loans. Can I have my money back?” the man asked Warren at a campaign event.

“Of course not,” Warren responded.

“So you’re going to pay the people who didn’t save [their] money, and those of us who did the right thing get screwed?” the man said.


https://www.nationalreview.com/news/man ... t-screwed/

So should any of us who have diligently paid for our education either by loans or by working our butts off get any of our money back? According to Warren, no, only those who vote for her pandering do.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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seb146
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:18 pm

Saving vs. taking out loans is the topic. "I saved for decades and want it back" is what the guy is saying. Compare that to "the only way I can pay for college is massive loans" and we see the problem with his statement.

The brosband and I saved up a down payment on this house. We should not have to use that down payment money for a down payment because we saved it.
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jetero
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:22 pm

I don't like these "one-side-versus-the-other" false choices.

What I try to ask myself is, "What is the common interest"?
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:23 pm

seb146 wrote:
Saving vs. taking out loans is the topic. "I saved for decades and want it back" is what the guy is saying. Compare that to "the only way I can pay for college is massive loans" and we see the problem with his statement.

The brosband and I saved up a down payment on this house. We should not have to use that down payment money for a down payment because we saved it.


Nope. The topic is, those who have saved for college and paid for it should they get their money back? Or for those who have paid their loans, should they get their money back?

According to Warren, "Absolutely not".
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:24 pm

The questioner is absolutely right of course. The forgiveness plan is a $250k gift, per person (potentially more or less), to quite a privileged group of people, college graduates. I guess my question would be, why does such a privileged group of people deserve such a big gift from the less privileged. The answer is probably the education industry (including herself) wants federal funding, to increase the level of luxury and wealth in the industry. Warren herself is quite wealthy from that effort.
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:25 pm

Yeah, that is actually one of my biggest issue with the whole situation. I don't think people like Warren and Sanders have really thought this out well and really are more pandering than making an effective intelligent policy.

Higher education is something one chooses and is not required. I support better loan options with caps etc. to reduce the inflation of schooling costs, along with repayment options that are tied to earnings and also allowing loans to be forgiven through the bankruptcy process. There needs to be better controls on them but still easy enough access for those without the means to get them and repay them.

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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:31 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Senator Elizabeth Warren (D., Mass.) was confronted on the campaign trail earlier this week by a man who was angry about her plan to forgive all U.S. student debt because he feels it punishes people like himself who had saved up to pay for their child’s education so as not to burden them with loans.

“My daughter is in school, I saved all my money just to pay student loans. Can I have my money back?” the man asked Warren at a campaign event.

“Of course not,” Warren responded.

“So you’re going to pay the people who didn’t save [their] money, and those of us who did the right thing get screwed?” the man said.


https://www.nationalreview.com/news/man ... t-screwed/

So should any of us who have diligently paid for our education either by loans or by working our butts off get any of our money back? According to Warren, no, only those who vote for her pandering do.



Yep, I agree. We can't right every wrong but we can go forward with a fair and equitable plan to pay for those who qualify for higher education. Also, what I paid for college (and I paid for every dime of it myself) is a pittance of what recent college graduates have had to pay. They are under such debt burdens they can hardly muster an existence with what is left over.

Why unnecessarily saddle a program that promises fairness and also ensures recent graduates actually spend $$ to keep the economy moving forward? Why make past resentments a barrier?
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:32 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Saving vs. taking out loans is the topic. "I saved for decades and want it back" is what the guy is saying. Compare that to "the only way I can pay for college is massive loans" and we see the problem with his statement.

The brosband and I saved up a down payment on this house. We should not have to use that down payment money for a down payment because we saved it.


Nope. The topic is, those who have saved for college and paid for it should they get their money back? Or for those who have paid their loans, should they get their money back?

According to Warren, "Absolutely not".


You are asking two completely different questions of two completely different sets of people.

Should people who save get money back? Not every penny. Maybe something for being rich enough to save for college or for living in an economically depressed area.

Should people who took out loans and paid them back get money back? Not every penny. Something for graduating but not every penny.

I work. I pay my bills. I see zero benefit from the tax breaks for the very wealthy. I deserve huge sums of cash for doing the right thing. This is what I am hearing now.
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flipdewaf
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:42 pm

Hmm, is there an assumption that saving to pay for something is better than taking a loan?

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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:53 pm

Interesting discussion on Bloomberg

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... ebt-relief

"In 1999, according to the Federal Reserve, about 45% of baby boomers, who were then in their 30s, owned a home. Today, that same data set shows that homeownership among baby boomers is just under 50%, but only 4% of millennials — who are in the same age bracket as boomers 20 years ago — own homes."



And of course millions of students have been ripped off financially by for-profit colleges that abuse federal student loan programs to make a profit
.

Trump University ?

The point is an entire generation is being held back economically by debt they took on to get an education. It is deeply counterproductive public policy. You simply can’t have a generation more concerned with paying off student loans than buying a house, starting a company or raising a family.



There are also counterpoints in it.

Partly, I don’t like the fact that it doesn’t take personal choices into account. The kid who stumbled around through a major in basket weaving for six years at some boutique school on loans is not the same thing as the hard-working kid who worked her ass off to get an engineering degree while working and taking loans. It’s just a big magic wand waved over all student loans with no regard to moral hazard.




After many discussions, I do not think forgiving loans is the way forward, unless you can prove the Universities deceived you in some major way.

However I think what may need to happen in the future to avoid debt giveaways, is to either make universities Free ( probably not a great idea as we do need ditch diggers), or perhaps Student's pay a certain percentage of future wages back to the University until some point in time. This forces Universities to have some say in the education of their students.
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:55 pm

mbmbos wrote:
Yep, I agree. We can't right every wrong but we can go forward with a fair and equitable plan to pay for those who qualify for higher education. Also, what I paid for college (and I paid for every dime of it myself) is a pittance of what recent college graduates have had to pay. They are under such debt burdens they can hardly muster an existence with what is left over.

Why unnecessarily saddle a program that promises fairness and also ensures recent graduates actually spend $$ to keep the economy moving forward? Why make past resentments a barrier?

Well, yes, but... I really cannot agree to socializing bad decisions by people who make really bad education decisions. The number of bad colleges out there is very high, and a lot of people go for extended times due to not going after something they are any good at. I agree people need the opportunity to be able to go to school, to get a higher education, but you can't leave it open ended, you need to include some elements that put the onus back on the person making the decision seeking schooling.

I want this for most any publicly funded program. There needs to be some level of accountability to the person getting the benefit if at all possible.

Tugg
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:55 pm

And THIS, folks, is why canceling student loan debt outright is a non-starter for me. Because people who did what they needed to and paid everything back are gonna be told "good for you" while the ones who studied flower basket weaving and complain about not making enough will get off way easier. The general sense I get is help those who are struggling at the expense of those who are successful. Now, on this particular issue, I understand the father's frustration. All the sacrifices he made so that his daughter graduated debt free. But this is like buying an airplane ticket and after using it finding out that it was available for less. The problem isn't the question: it's how those who made a sacrifice don't get to see anything in exchange. They won't get a credit for a second degree or an advanced degree. They won't get a credit to reclaim money spent on loans.

I am in favor of making college AFFORDABLE. I could rally behind a plan to eliminate (or drastically reduce) interest rates on student loans and cancel the debt caused by interest rates (only pay back a principal). But canceling all debt outright? Nope!
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apodino
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:00 pm

The problem I see is that the cost of higher education has gotten out of control, and since most of the middle class cannot afford it out of pocket...students have had to take out loans. Congress has tried to address this problem in the past, noteably with Pell Grants, but when more federal money became available for colleges, they took advantage of the opportunity to raise tuition and thus nothing was really solved other than more treasury money being spent. Aside from the for profit colleges, no one has addressed the issue of why the cost of higher education has gotten so out of whack, so the easy solution is to go after the lenders instead. The Lenders exist as a symptom of the bigger problem.

Forgiving Student Loan debt would really have me asking some questions. I graduated with Student Loan Debt and I have paid it all of and I have no debt anymore other than my Mortgage and car payment. Why is it fair to a guy like me who paid off his student loans that its forgiven for others, but not for me when I had it and I actually did things the right way and paid it off?
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:25 pm

I'm not a fan of forgiving student loan debt because it leaves out everyone who took out similar loans and paid them back. I was fortunate enough to come from a family with enough wealth that my parents were able to pay for my education, so this doesn't effect me one way or the other. A vast majority of my friends went to school by taking out loans. All of us have been out of school at least 20 years ago and none of them still owe any money on their education. Some of them worked extra hours or put off buying other things in order to pay they loans off as fast as they could. Getting your loans cleared is a huge advantage to anyone, so why should only a recent graduate get that advantage when somebody who graduated 20 years ago, who also had massive debt not have had the advantage? The progressive politicians like to talk about how wrong it is that some people have more advantages in life than others and want to level the playing field. Forgiving student loan debt is a tremendous advantage. I knew twenty years ago that not having any student debt was a major advantage for me. If all student debt is forgiven those politicians gave another advantage to those who had ability to advance their education.

I would be curious to know where the politicians who want to forgive loans want to draw the line? So lets say everyone who has a student loan debt today had it wiped out? What about person who graduates next year, or the year after that? Will they get this break too? If they don't; why not? Do people who happen to have finished school at the right moment in time deserve a break in life, but others do not? If we are going to pay for everyone's education from here on out we need structured pricing. If one student studies business at Central Michigan University and another studies it at University of Detroit Mercy the UofDM grad will have accrued more debt because the school is more expensive. Why should the tax payer be on the hook for the UofDM student simply because the school charges more for the same degree? If the government forgives loans or pays for the school directly the costs will escalate out of control quickly because the schools will know the government will pay whatever the fee is. A degree that costs $100,000 will soon be $150,000 or more because the "who cares how much we charge, the government is paying".




I would be up for a revamping of the entire student loan system, but I don't know how universities would like it. I think the lender should only pay when the course is successfully completed. Why do I say this? I knew people in school (and know someone doing this now) who enrolled in a large number classes only to drop them before the deadline to get the money back. They then spend that money on living expenses. As a tax payer I don't want to subsidize that behavior so I believe that if the loans wouldn't paid until after the classes were completed this would eliminate this fraud, which leads to excessive debt. A friend's daughter is 35 and is a perpetual student (she went to college at age 29) She doesn't work and "earn" her living expense money by enrolling in classes and then dropping them. She brags about this behavior and her father is beside himself. She is working on a second masters degree and plans on getting a third so she can stay in school and avoid her $250,000 plus debt that keeps growing. She has told me that she is waiting for Bernie or Warren to get elected so she can leave school and have her debt wiped out. She was sure that would happen in 2016, but it didn't. I would like to think she's an isolated example, but I wonder how common people like her are.
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:48 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
And THIS, folks, is why canceling student loan debt outright is a non-starter for me. Because people who did what they needed to and paid everything back are gonna be told "good for you" while the ones who studied flower basket weaving and complain about not making enough will get off way easier. The general sense I get is help those who are struggling at the expense of those who are successful. Now, on this particular issue, I understand the father's frustration. All the sacrifices he made so that his daughter graduated debt free. But this is like buying an airplane ticket and after using it finding out that it was available for less. The problem isn't the question: it's how those who made a sacrifice don't get to see anything in exchange. They won't get a credit for a second degree or an advanced degree. They won't get a credit to reclaim money spent on loans.

I am in favor of making college AFFORDABLE. I could rally behind a plan to eliminate (or drastically reduce) interest rates on student loans and cancel the debt caused by interest rates (only pay back a principal). But canceling all debt outright? Nope!

My friend, you've said very eloquently pretty much exactly what I was thinking. A wonderful post and a well-thought argument
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:08 pm

1. I agree that universal forgiveness from an arbitrary starting point is a terrible idea for all the reasons stated above.
2. College has become monstrously expensive.
2a. The same middle class bellyaching about the cost of it also perpetually demands tax cuts which has resulted in reduced funding of state schools
2b. College has become a right of passage, an extended adolescence for far too many and a great many people take out more loans than they need to as a substitute for working a part time job to pay their rent and lifestyle expenses
3. Not everybody needs to go to college. And I've never quite figured out how four years of "General Business" (the drinking major at my alma mater) is more useful than actually working four years and acquiring useful skills.
4. Not every degree should be forgiven. If you can prove to the government that there is actually a benefit, then I'm all for that (much like PSLF that's already in place). All that information is very clearly spelled out, and if you didn't have the foresight to, I don't know, plan beyond the next six months, then tough tits you were dumb by going to college in the first place without a plan. You're an adult. Nobody forced you to sign for those loans.

My proposal
1. Keep PSLF that we already have -- these folks are taking a salary hit to qualify for this. Believe me.
2. If you worked through college, and can prove it, then you qualify automatically for a basic level loan forgiveness. The levels can progress.
3. You must have graduated
4. Somebody smarter than me can come up with some formula for social contribution -- ie. how many more tax dollars are going to come out of your salary if you're working in a job related to your field than if you were burdened with student loans
5. Some degrees just aren't eligible. Folklore for example...while I've nothing against the art of preserving stories, you don't need a four year degree (or like one of my least favorite college professors, a PhD, who I swear to god published articles in journals about feminism in Buffy the Vampire Slayer) to tell stories. We did this for millennia on our own. And really, the only place these people find employment is within the education system.
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:15 pm

The availability of federal loans has created a perverse loan situation when people who can't reasonably repay a debt still are given money to study whatever they want, in large amounts. This is unnatural. This leads to runaway tuition + fees growth.

In an alternative scenario, no federal loans are available. You really need to EARN the money for tuition. As a result, tuition and fees fall. As a result, you can earn the money to pay tuition. This is not Warren's preferred plan, because she and her friends were making $400k as law school professors for yukking it up, then she could consult when convenient at $1000/hr to earn some pocket money. The fallout from uncontrolled spending is severe and eventually destroys the society that is doing it. A vision of that destruction would be every student borrows $300k to party, and the professor makes $400k or so to host that party. Eventually the money would run out with no useful skills being learned, and no path to maintain or regain prosperity.

Tuition forgiveness is nihilistic and represents a fiscal death cult "screw the world" sort of mentality. It is a privilege-drunk power grab.
Last edited by LCDFlight on Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
SanDiegoLover
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:16 pm

This isn’t a “one time” deal people. Along with various amounts of loan forgiveness for previous education, higher education moving forward will be reduced / free to some extent. Just because you yourself don’t benefit, doesn’t mean it’s “unfair”. If your schooling wasn’t further subsidized then it will be your children, or younger siblings, or nieces and nephews, or even grandchildren.

Also for once the left is starting out with a truly progressive idea. Sure, after compromise is made the reality will be tempered. Perhaps it will be the first $50,000 or $65,000 in debt that gets forgiven and no more. Or income limits. Or 50% forgiveness up to $150,000 or something more centrist. The problem Obama and Bill Clinton had were their opening bids were barely left of center or just plain centrist in their opening form, to then have ObamaCare become RomneyCare, a center right solution.

For once progressives opening gambit is a truly progressive idea. The alternative is to let the economy flounder under massive debt and slow to no growth for 30 years simply because you don’t like that someone else might get something you aren’t.
Last edited by SanDiegoLover on Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
bennett123
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:17 pm

Why not low or zero interest loans, either for all subjects or for selected subjects.

After all society does benefit from having more Engineers, Doctors etc.

Sure people who graduated in the past and have paid off their loans will complain. Wherever you draw the line there will be winners and losers.
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:54 pm

I also wonder if the father in the original post sent his daughter to private school? There are some very excellent private schools which offer needed degrees. But, why should a doctor in theology from Liberty University, for example, have their debt wiped clean? Having some relief, yes. But there needs to be limits.

And, yes, people are going to complain and feel slighted. And there absolutely does need to be a long term plan for AFFORDABLE education.
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:33 am

This is decent article on the idea and some of the problems that can arise.

https://qz.com/812200/is-free-college-p ... e-college/

Tugg
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FGITD
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:46 am

A society grows great when old men (Let's update: older generations) plant seeds for trees who's shade they know they will never sit in.
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:17 am

FGITD wrote:
A society grows great when old men (Let's update: older generations) plant seeds for trees who's shade they know they will never sit in.


Well said.

SanDiegoLover wrote:
Along with various amounts of loan forgiveness for previous education, higher education moving forward will be reduced / free to some extent. Just because you yourself don’t benefit, doesn’t mean it’s “unfair”. If your schooling wasn’t further subsidized then it will be your children, or younger siblings, or nieces and nephews, or even grandchildren.

The alternative is to let the economy flounder under massive debt and slow to no growth for 30 years simply because you don’t like that someone else might get something you aren’t.



What is somewhere between confounding and downright amazing is the fact that the very same, literal people who feel that way about education, for that reason, have absolutely no qualms about structuring our tax system to blatantly favor a wealth sector they can never hope to achieve.

It is telling that we have now literally conditioned ourselves to react violently and stupidly to things that favor most people, while defending policies that are obviously harmful to all but a very few. Well done, us. . .


luckyone wrote:
2a. The same middle class bellyaching about the cost of it also perpetually demands tax cuts which has resulted in reduced funding of state schools
2b. College has become a right of passage, an extended adolescence for far too many and a great many people take out more loans than they need to as a substitute for working a part time job to pay their rent and lifestyle expenses


These also are problems. But it is the landscape we have left to work with...

luckyone wrote:
3. Not everybody needs to go to college. And I've never quite figured out how four years of "General Business" (the drinking major at my alma mater) is more useful than actually working four years and acquiring useful skills.


No, but those people are at a temporary advantage. Four extra years in a workforce, particularly one in a Guilded Field, is a hell of a head start. Those that choose not to go that route can simply be looked at as the equivalent of students seeking degrees in Art History, Women's Jazz, or what have you. . . Their problem.


einsteinboricua wrote:
Now, on this particular issue, I understand the father's frustration. All the sacrifices he made so that his daughter graduated debt free. But this is like buying an airplane ticket and after using it finding out that it was available for less.


No, this is not a rational frustration, understandable or no. He made that choice, and should not ever be eligible for remuneration. Warren was right to call him out.
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 2:29 am

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
No, this is not a rational frustration, understandable or no. He made that choice, and should not ever be eligible for remuneration. Warren was right to call him out.

I do not agree. His choice carries equal weight to the student who agrees to take out loans. I took out large loans for medical school, and I did so knowingly, and you’re also required to review repayment education before the loan can be disbursed—it’s on you the borrower to borrow responsibly. If Ms. Warren is not even capable of acknowledging that, then that’s a problem.
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:37 am

I wonder why we don’t start by changing the law to make it possible to discharge education loans in bankruptcy courts on terms equivalent to other loans (it is currently much harder to discharge than any other debt). Borrowers who are able to pay will have no incentive to stop paying, whereas the ones who are truly unable to face their debt will have to think long and hard about the adverse consequences, but will have a way out.

bennett123 wrote:
Why not low or zero interest loans, either for all subjects or for selected subjects.

Because cheaper and more accessible loans drive up the cost of tuition. Addressing the student debt crisis without also addressing skyrocketing tuition only ensures that we will be back were we are a few short years later, as future students will be expecting their own bailout and will take on even more debts than current students.

luckyone wrote:
4. Somebody smarter than me can come up with some formula for social contribution -- ie. how many more tax dollars are going to come out of your salary if you're working in a job related to your field than if you were burdened with student loans.

We already have loan forgiveness programs for teachers and nurses, however the authors of these programs forgot to ensure that loan servicers would play their part. Since servicers make more revenue the longer it takes to reimburse a loan, they made no efforts to make sure eligible borrowers would actually qualify for loan forgiveness when the time came. They gave borrowers inaccurate or incomplete information, pushed them into a reimbursement plan that would automatically disqualify them, misapplied payments, etc... In a recent past, over 90% of applications from teachers and nurses who had complied with every other condition of the program were denied due to reasons having to do with misinformation or incompetence on the part of their servicer.

If we are going to increase opportunities for forgiveness based on some measure of social contribution, servicers must have a strong incentive to be a part of the solution (I'm thinking they are responsible for the balance of the loan if borrowers are disqualified from forgiveness due to their servicer's mistake.
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:53 am

einsteinboricua wrote:
And THIS, folks, is why canceling student loan debt outright is a non-starter for me. Because people who did what they needed to and paid everything back are gonna be told "good for you" while the ones who studied flower basket weaving and complain about not making enough will get off way easier. The general sense I get is help those who are struggling at the expense of those who are successful. Now, on this particular issue, I understand the father's frustration. All the sacrifices he made so that his daughter graduated debt free. But this is like buying an airplane ticket and after using it finding out that it was available for less. The problem isn't the question: it's how those who made a sacrifice don't get to see anything in exchange. They won't get a credit for a second degree or an advanced degree. They won't get a credit to reclaim money spent on loans.

I am in favor of making college AFFORDABLE. I could rally behind a plan to eliminate (or drastically reduce) interest rates on student loans and cancel the debt caused by interest rates (only pay back a principal). But canceling all debt outright? Nope!


Masterful post. I would even get behind a plan to reorganize institutions receiving any public funds whatsoever into a non-profit tax-exempt status. You should not lose money from providing quality education, but enriching oneself simply because public funds are available should be a non-starter.
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jetero
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:25 am

Well it sounds like on the a.net straw poll Lizzie Warren ain’t gonna win. And no one is for relieving student loans carte blanche. So ... we can all move on!
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:31 am

jetero wrote:
I don't like these "one-side-versus-the-other" false choices.

What I try to ask myself is, "What is the common interest"?


The problem with that line of thinking is that someone always gets screwed. Either forgive the loans and give everyone their money back or don't do it all. What about the people who took out loans and struggled for years but finally paid them off? Screw em'?
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:38 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
jetero wrote:
I don't like these "one-side-versus-the-other" false choices.

What I try to ask myself is, "What is the common interest"?


The problem with that line of thinking is that someone always gets screwed. Either forgive the loans and give everyone their money back or don't do it all. What about the people who took out loans and struggled for years but finally paid them off? Screw em'?


That happens all the time. Three consecutive administrations have absolved the royals in the sandbox of indirect enabling of 9/11, and in the end only the victims’ families were screwed. They’re not even allowed to pursue full discovery in their lawsuits because AG Barr invoked state secrets protections claiming potential compromise of national security. How’s that fair?
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jetero
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 4:39 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
jetero wrote:
I don't like these "one-side-versus-the-other" false choices.

What I try to ask myself is, "What is the common interest"?


The problem with that line of thinking is that someone always gets screwed. Either forgive the loans and give everyone their money back or don't do it all. What about the people who took out loans and struggled for years but finally paid them off? Screw em'?


What line of thinking?

Student debt is either an issue or not an issue for the society as a whole.

If it is an issue, then there are plenty of smart people who can come up with a solution in good faith where it isn’t a binary Fox News alarm bell “Look at what these socialists are trying to do!”

If it isn’t really an issue, well, let’s start talking about why it isn’t.
 
Airstud
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:03 am

Anyone else notice a.net displaying ads from for-profit colleges on this thread? :biggrin:
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tommy1808
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:32 am

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Senator Elizabeth Warren (D., Mass.) was confronted on the campaign trail earlier this week by a man who was angry about her plan to forgive all U.S. student debt because he feels it punishes people like himself who had saved up to pay for their child’s education so as not to burden them with loans.

“My daughter is in school, I saved all my money just to pay student loans. Can I have my money back?” the man asked Warren at a campaign event.

“Of course not,” Warren responded.

“So you’re going to pay the people who didn’t save [their] money, and those of us who did the right thing get screwed?” the man said.


https://www.nationalreview.com/news/man ... t-screwed/

So should any of us who have diligently paid for our education either by loans or by working our butts off get any of our money back? According to Warren, no, only those who vote for her pandering do.


Ah, the crybabies again. Buh hu, someone is getting something i didn´t get..... instead of being happy and proud that they could fund it independently, they want government hand-outs for because people that could afford education our of pocket..... how pissed he must be that people in need get a welfare check and he doesn´t

I had to work my way through university since the system to determine need for support said my parents had the money to fund me fully, but paying early 80´s interest rates on their mortgage they couldn´t. Took me two years longer to finsh, i worked up to three jobs to pay for living and materials, and not once did it occur to me to be mad because someone had it better than me, instead i am simply proud i pulled it off.....

FGITD wrote:
A society grows great when old men (Let's update: older generations) plant seeds for trees who's shade they know they will never sit in.


Yeah, but in the US it is en vogue to steal your grand kids money to fund the government, because paying those taxes yourself is theft.....

Folks like the guy from the piece above will cut any tree they planted down and burn it the moment they realize it won´t grow big enough to sit in in their lifetime...

Tugger wrote:
This is decent article on the idea and some of the problems that can arise.

https://qz.com/812200/is-free-college-p ... e-college/

Tugg


Its a hit job full of factual errors. And even without knowing anything about the German system the language makes that so obvious that i am rather puzzled that you came to the conclusion it is a decent article.
But it does make obvious that being against free education is an outcrop of envy.

bennett123 wrote:
Why not low or zero interest loans, either for all subjects or for selected subjects


because capitalism. Prices are whatever can be extracted from the customer. If interest is zero, prices go up, students pay the same, Universities make more profits. Shareholders win, nobody else does ...

apodino wrote:
The problem I see is that the cost of higher education has gotten out of control, and since most of the middle class cannot afford it out of pocket...students have had to take out loans. Congress has tried to address this problem in the past, noteably with Pell Grants, but when more federal money became available for colleges, they took advantage of the opportunity to raise tuition and thus nothing was really solved other than more treasury money being spent. Aside from the for profit colleges, no one has addressed the issue of why the cost of higher education has gotten so out of whack, so the easy solution is to go after the lenders instead. The Lenders exist as a symptom of the bigger problem.


If you have for profit school absolutely nothing will change the situation, making more funds available only drives up prices.
Limit public funding to non-profit schools and universities

Forgiving Student Loan debt would really have me asking some questions. I graduated with Student Loan Debt and I have paid it all of and I have no debt anymore other than my Mortgage and car payment.


Student loans US style would pretty much be illegal here as they often go above any reasonable assumption of debt carrying capacity.

Why is it fair to a guy like me who paid off his student loans that its forgiven for others, but not for me when I had it and I actually did things the right way and paid it off?


fairness is a question of perspective, if you can only ever do what is fair to absolutely everyone, you can never do anything. There is this thing we call "empathy", it generally allows us to be happy for others...

best regards
Thomas
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:56 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
jetero wrote:
I don't like these "one-side-versus-the-other" false choices.

What I try to ask myself is, "What is the common interest"?


The problem with that line of thinking is that someone always gets screwed. Either forgive the loans and give everyone their money back or don't do it all. What about the people who took out loans and struggled for years but finally paid them off? Screw em'?


What about all the people who got sick before there was a polio vaccine?
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:03 am

A tax credit applied to the next 20 years or something like that could be a fair way to deal with this. Amounting to what was actually spent.

Of course moving forward a big reform of US colleges should come, with prices reduced by 2, 3, 4 or 5 times what they are today.
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:33 am

Aesma wrote:
A tax credit applied to the next 20 years or something like that could be a fair way to deal with this. Amounting to what was actually spent..


that means students can carry more debt, and prices will drift up accordingly, as they have invariably done whenever there was more money to be spend. Students would not win, tax payers would lose, for profit school shareholder would pop champagne.

If you want to use taxes to make it more fair, tax former students a somewhat higher tax rater for those 20 years (oh wait, they earn more on average, so on average they already pay more taxes.....) and have the funds distributed to schools based on nothing bad headcount and outcome quality. Then you can still have private universities, with the government having enough pricing power to keep them just profitable enough to draw in needed investments. And not a dime more.

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EA CO AS
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:47 am

The problem isn't so much the relief from debt, but how it's amassed in the first place. Government needs to get out of the student loan business entirely and let prospective students apply for loans, showing why they're a good risk, what their plan is for a return on that investment that will allow them to repay the debt, and so on. I can't think of too many good reasons to hand a 17 year old $50K or more so they can go have "the college experience" and live on campus when there's a perfectly good community college 10 miles away from mom and dad for a fifth of the price, with arguably the same education for the first 2 years until they can determine if finishing school is in the cards for them. Also, having a good ROIC-based application process for student loans would get a lot more people into skilled trades, where you've got a defined path forward to earning your way out of debt. The present "Hey, here's a fistful of cash - go nuts!" model results in a ton of money chasing college educations, and anytime too much money chases too little of a good or service, the price inevitably rockets upward. That's why school is so expensive in the first place.

And while there's presently no mechanism in place to "repossess" a degree, there should also be a way for banks who have students default on a loan - once government is out of it, that is - to "flag" someone as no longer being considered a degree-holder from that school until the default is remedied. There's no point in being able to benefit from having a degree you didn't pay for.

Either way, we live in interesting times when someone who was paid $400K a year to teach one class is now lecturing people on the evils of how expensive a college education is, and advocates using taxpayer money to effectively buy the votes of people who want a bailout from their poor money management.
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VSMUT
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:56 am

The entire society will be richer and more well off if student debt it forgiven. Sucks for some right here and now, but stuff like this will boost the economy over time.
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:06 am

VSMUT wrote:
The entire society will be richer and more well off if student debt it forgiven. Sucks for some right here and now, but stuff like this will boost the economy over time.


If the argument is that people, the economy, and society all benefit from having no payments to make on their education, then why aren't mortgages being forgiven? Or car loans? There are far more people carrying those - both of which are life choices, just like higher education - than student loan debt.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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VSMUT
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:14 am

EA CO AS wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
The entire society will be richer and more well off if student debt it forgiven. Sucks for some right here and now, but stuff like this will boost the economy over time.


If the argument is that people, the economy, and society all benefit from having no payments to make on their education, then why aren't mortgages being forgiven? Or car loans? There are far more people carrying those - both of which are life choices, just like higher education - than student loan debt.


People owning a house (vs renting or buying somewhere cheaper) doesn't generate anywhere near the same amount of wealth as education does. Investing in real estate actually takes money out of circulation.
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 8:56 am

VSMUT wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
The entire society will be richer and more well off if student debt it forgiven. Sucks for some right here and now, but stuff like this will boost the economy over time.


If the argument is that people, the economy, and society all benefit from having no payments to make on their education, then why aren't mortgages being forgiven? Or car loans? There are far more people carrying those - both of which are life choices, just like higher education - than student loan debt.


People owning a house (vs renting or buying somewhere cheaper) doesn't generate anywhere near the same amount of wealth as education does. Investing in real estate actually takes money out of circulation.


I'd disagree with that; someone who isn't spending X amount on a monthly mortgage payment is likely to spend darn near X on other items, such as travel, consumer goods, and so on, all of which actually inject money into the economy.

But my point was simply to say that if you're in such favor of forgiving all student debt, wiping the slate clean, what's the argument against doing it on a far larger scale? (Note - I don't advocate either, but I'd like to know why you'd be ok with one but not the other)
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

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VSMUT
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 9:20 am

EA CO AS wrote:
I'd disagree with that; someone who isn't spending X amount on a monthly mortgage payment is likely to spend darn near X on other items, such as travel, consumer goods, and so on, all of which actually inject money into the economy.


And I disagree with that. We are talking about getting people up to a stage where they can earn enough money to start reinvesting it in the economy vs private investments in property. Focus on education brings people from the minimum wage/poverty line to +100.000k a year. There is simply no comparison.

Besides which, I don't know of a single welfare state that offers to cover mortgages, but I know that most of them cover education. It says a lot that almost everyone is on the same line there.
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:51 pm

In France we have free education, and real estate is also subsidized (as is renting), ah ah. For example to buy a new flat/house, as a current renter, I can get a free, 0% mortgage for up to 60 000€, and I get to start paying it back in 5 years.

In the US I seem to remember you can get something on your taxes with a mortgage.

tommy1808 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
A tax credit applied to the next 20 years or something like that could be a fair way to deal with this. Amounting to what was actually spent..


that means students can carry more debt, and prices will drift up accordingly, as they have invariably done whenever there was more money to be spend. Students would not win, tax payers would lose, for profit school shareholder would pop champagne.


That's not what I'm suggesting. Fix the problem of the cost of education, forgive the loans that currently exist, and give tax credits to people who paid much more than the new "cheaper cost" of education you have now.

Ideally, make education free, so there are no loans at all.
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:57 pm

Aesma wrote:
That's not what I'm suggesting. Fix the problem of the cost of education, forgive the loans that currently exist, and give tax credits to people who paid much more than the new "cheaper cost" of education you have now.

Ideally, make education free, so there are no loans at all.


ah, yes. That makes sense.

best regards
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:22 pm

Aesma wrote:

Ideally, make education free, so there are no loans at all.


Yes that's the main mistake when comparing Europe to America, nothing you guys get there is for free. You are paying it in taxes and in the interests on the national debt your government is accumulating for paying for all the 'free stuff'.
Nothing is free your kids and grand kids are paying for it.
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:24 pm

VSMUT wrote:
The entire society will be richer and more well off if student debt it forgiven. Sucks for some right here and now, but stuff like this will boost the economy over time.


How can any 'society' be richer if you take money away from the middle class (to pay for it) that could otherwise be in the economy moving money across many industries and instead only going to one industry. The banks.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister
 
AirWorthy99
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:36 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Sure people who graduated in the past and have paid off their loans will complain. Wherever you draw the line there will be winners and losers.


Why those of us who paid our education working 2 or 3 shifts, should also pick up the tab for those who instead of working/saving sat their asses playing video games and or took vacation every weekend and kept a high quality of life?

So basically not only won't I get back my money but I have to pay (via taxes) for those who don't want to pay.

I know the Democrats get the votes by offering free stuff and showing 'compassion' but this is just too much.
Last edited by AirWorthy99 on Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:36 pm

People need to take responsibility for themselves.

There are plenty of scholarships out there.
You can work jobs.
You can study harder and graduate sooner.
You can go to cheaper colleges.
You can not take out max loans and live like a party animal for four years.
You can do a few minutes of research and not get a completely useless degree

(I realize not everyone can do all of the above, but too many do the opposite of all or most of the above)

I'm all for easing the burden a bit, making it easy to pay back. The rising cost of schooling is absurd (though there are plenty of affordable options out there.) But people need to be responsible for their actions. I'm tired of everyone babying adults for their lack of thinking. Help them, don't just magically wave away the fruits of their irresponsibility
 
VSMUT
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:39 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
The entire society will be richer and more well off if student debt it forgiven. Sucks for some right here and now, but stuff like this will boost the economy over time.


How can any 'society' be richer if you take money away from the middle class (to pay for it) that could otherwise be in the economy moving money across many industries and instead only going to one industry. The banks.


Because by forgiving student loans you give the up and coming generations a lift so they can become middle-class citizens as well.


AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Ideally, make education free, so there are no loans at all.


Yes that's the main mistake when comparing Europe to America, nothing you guys get there is for free. You are paying it in taxes and in the interests on the national debt your government is accumulating for paying for all the 'free stuff'.
Nothing is free your kids and grand kids are paying for it.


No, it isn't free, but economy of scale kicks in. It is much cheaper to negotiate prices on behalf of several million citizens, as opposed to several million citizens negotiating separately.

BTW, Denmark and Sweden have generally been paying off their national debt for several decades despite offering generous welfare packages, not just adding to it. The grand kids won't pay any more for it than any other generation. There is something to say about the elder boom becoming a challenge for the future, but that only speaks in favour of getting young generations into well paying positions much fast, given that it is their taxes that will finance the government once boomers retire.
 
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:41 pm

AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Ideally, make education free, so there are no loans at all.


Yes that's the main mistake when comparing Europe to America, nothing you guys get there is for free. You are paying it in taxes and in the interests on the national debt your government is accumulating for paying for all the 'free stuff'.
Nothing is free your kids and grand kids are paying for it.


So, the US should be debt free, no ?
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AirWorthy99
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Re: Father tells Warren: ‘Those of Us Who Did the Right Thing Get Screwed?’

Fri Jan 24, 2020 1:45 pm

VSMUT wrote:
AirWorthy99 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
The entire society will be richer and more well off if student debt it forgiven. Sucks for some right here and now, but stuff like this will boost the economy over time.


How can any 'society' be richer if you take money away from the middle class (to pay for it) that could otherwise be in the economy moving money across many industries and instead only going to one industry. The banks.


Because by forgiving student loans you give the up and coming generations a lift so they can become middle-class citizens as well.


AirWorthy99 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

Ideally, make education free, so there are no loans at all.


Yes that's the main mistake when comparing Europe to America, nothing you guys get there is for free. You are paying it in taxes and in the interests on the national debt your government is accumulating for paying for all the 'free stuff'.
Nothing is free your kids and grand kids are paying for it.


No, it isn't free, but economy of scale kicks in. It is much cheaper to negotiate prices on behalf of several million citizens, as opposed to several million citizens negotiating separately.

BTW, Denmark and Sweden have generally been paying off their national debt for several decades despite offering generous welfare packages, not just adding to it. The grand kids won't pay any more for it than any other generation. There is something to say about the elder boom becoming a challenge for the future, but that only speaks in favour of getting young generations into well paying positions much fast, given that it is their taxes that will finance the government once boomers retire.


Nope, I work day and night so my kids go to school, and get out debt free. Instead of buying the expensive car, the expensive house I save money in order for my future generations get the education they need.
Its a chain, they make their decisions and by the time the graduate they have no debt, and can start fresh, and also save for the kids they will have.

So its a chain, I save for my kids, they save for theirs... it continues. I don't really want my children to depend on the government for their education or expect them to have a free ride thanks to the government. Its irresponsible to put the burden on others for the decisions they make.
“In my experience eloquent men are right every bit as often as imbeciles.” Tyrion Lannister

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